One of my biggest struggles when I was living in the San Francisco Bay Area as a South Asian, was the unapologetic way self-proclaimed new-agers would appropriate Indian culture. Wearing Indian inspired clothing, listening to Indian music, eating Indian foods, studying Indian traditional medicine and of course, practicing yoga (including all various types of chanting and instrument playing). It has never been an easy line for me to tow. I believe that culture is fluid, it doesn't necessarily belong to any one person and South Asian culture is the jam, so it is easy to understand why people are drawn to its complexity.
Or are they? Perhaps it was curious exploration, but to me it has always felt like the new-ager obsession with India feeds into the belief that Americans don't have their "own" culture, so they need to participate and steal from "mine." Even though I had adopted a Western lifestyle and it was definitely "my culture"--one trip to India made that very clear. Furthermore, it felt very convenient for people that hadn't experienced life as a person of color and an immigrant in this country to participate in a culture by choice, one that I had been discriminated against for being a part of. My ambivalence to Westerners adopting and often distorting what I knew as my "home" culture has only grown, where yoga practice for me is sometimes my fight to deal with my anger around cultural appropriation.
This very personal confrontation I have had with cultural appropriation (and the fact that I am human) makes me think the incident with the Oprah-approved self-help guru, James Arthur Ray who took some 50-odd people to a retreat center in Sedona, Arizona, had them fast and then sit in a sweat lodge, after which 2 of them died and 19 were hospitalized, is especially disgusting. The blatant lack of recognition of cultural appropriation, how dangerous and deadly the situation turned out to be and the chilling reality that perhaps this could have been anyone of the new-agers I encountered in San Francisco, starved and craving a culture of their "own," is irksome at best.
Indigenous leaders agree. Chief Arvol Looking Horse, 19th Generation Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe Bundle, writes personally on NDN News,
As Keeper of our Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe Bundle, I am concerned for the 2 deaths and illnesses of the many people that participated in a sweat lodge in Sedona, Arizona that brought our sacred rite under fire in the news. I would like to clarify that this lodge and many others, are not our ceremonial way of life, because of the way they are being conducted. My prayers go out for their families and loved ones for their loss.Our ceremonies are about life and healing, from the time this ancient ceremonial rite was given to our people, never has death been a part of our inikag'a (life within) when conducted properly. Today the rite is interpreted as a sweat lodge, it is much more then that. So the term does not fit our real meaning of purification.
Who knows what Ray's intention was, but not knowing how to do the ceremony properly led to the unnecessary death of 3 people and injuries to countless others. According to CNN the deaths will be investigated as homicides.
I am so deeply disturbed by this.
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General question: how do you know if you have crossed the line from "cultural appreciation" into "cultural appropriation?" I have a stereotypical picture in my head of course: a complete poser, most likely white, whose sense of self worth relies on being able to "out culture" all of their friends by proving their superior knowledge, understanding and pronunciation of all things Indian/Korean/Native American/etc. But surely it's more nuanced than that. I'm sure many of the people who appropriate other cultures don't see THEMSELVES as posers and truly believe their behavior stems from authentic respect for that culture. I happen to really enjoy yoga, trying new foods, reading about other religions, and learning new languages. So how can I judge when my appreciation for other cultures becomes offensive to the people of those cultures?
"So how can I judge when my appreciation for other cultures becomes offensive to the people of those cultures?"
Honestly, that's a hard question to answer. Right now, all I can think of is that, don't objectify people of color and don't assume we're all the one and same.
I wear Indian clothes sometimes, but I'm a punk and I dress punk rock most of the time. a few times, I've been told by white dudes that I should stop dressing like a punk and that I should dress like "real Indian woman" just because they met a few Indian women who moved here from India and they dress traditionally. Really, dumbasses? I dress how I want and I'm STILL an Indian no matter how I dress.
my point is that you can appreciate a foreign culture, but don't try to exoticize, objectify , and slump these people as the one and same person. I don't know if that makes sense but I hope you get what I mean...
Interesting post, Samhita, welcome back!
What makes this a particularly sensitive subject is that America is entirely a Melting Pot. Consider just one example: the Blues are the common root of virtually every significant American music form from Hip Hop to Rock to (yes, even)Bluegrass. Without cultural appropriation America would just be an ex-British colony.
To (attempt to) answer Jrant's question, this is a little like pornography, you know it when you see it. Context matters. Eminem famously said, "I am the worst thing since Elvis Presley, to do black music so selfishly and use it to get myself wealthy." That line earned him mad props w/ black folks. It let us know he was not Vanilla Ice (who literally stole black music).
So in many ways it comes down to this, are you real about it? Do you know what you're doing? Do you give credit to those you're taking it from (a la Eminem), or do you steal it outright (Elvis, Vanilla Ice)? Do you respect the people you're doing it to? Are you sensitive to their issues? Do you try to get to know them as people ? Common respect goes a long way & if people know you're being sincere, they'll cut you a lot of slack, even if you *do* something *insensitive*.
I think you're on track, but the last piece of the puzzle is othering.
I enjoyed living in a visibly Indian-American neighborhood in Berkeley. I enjoyed it so much, I moved to India for a while. But I traveled around North India and then settled down in Kerala. Now, only Vic's (an importer which had a kitchen as well), served South Indian food. I learned a ton about Dravidian culture and history, and also a ton about Muslim identity and experience within the Indian over-culture. (Lived in a Muslim neighborhood but walked to a Hindu temple for lunch every day since I'm vegetarian.)
It wasn't quite what I'd gathered India was like. And I imagine that a lot of people would have that experience.
What I've taken from that experience is that the Berkeley Indian-American ways are valid ways of being Indian. That there is blending happening at every level.
But more importantly, I've learned that, by learning the menu of several restaurants, I've learned nothing about some general "character" of Indian people. Knowing that yoga comes from India doesn't mean knowing that "Indian people" are yogic.
I live on a boat, and at my marina, there's a great example of the problem with cultural appropriation. Someone put up a sign in the shared kitchen. It says, "Recycle - hula girls do it!" And yes, there's a picture of a cartoon Hawaiian woman in a grass skirt. This reference to hula is trying to make recycling sexy, fun, and, horribly, attainable. It disgusts me enough just on that basis, but were I to get a visit from a certain friend of mine - a staunch feminist and overall badass butch Hawaiian - her reaction would be disdainful.
This appropriation of culture to make yourself or your audience respond to assumed qualities adds a level of distance between people and the cultures they're observing. Would the people at my marina be able to understand my friend's hula-ignorance? She's Hawaiian, doesn't she hula? And what if she does, but hula to her means meditation, communication, community, and religious praise?
I don't see cultural appropriation hurting culture. I see cultural appropriation hurting people who are further and more firmly pushed into stereotypes, more thoroughly othered.
I want to be as respectful as I can be about this, and maybe I just can't understand, but I have to admit that Indian culture has always been fascinating to me.
It's not because I don't have a culture of my own, my mother is from Cuba and I have a lot of Cuban culture within my family.
But I am the kind of person that in general loves culture. And I think a lot of Indian culture is beautiful in so many different ways. Granted I'm not fully exposed to all the elements of it, but at some point in my life I want to go to India and live there and experience living somewhere so different.
So I eat Indian food, I do yoga, I meditate and am a Buddhist (although that in particular is not Indian specifically, but definitely not American), and I really want to go to India and be there. It isn't because I lack my own culture. But I feel like a lot of people are just fascinated by cultures in general, and thus are often drawn to something that seems so different from the situation they already live in.
It crosses a line when the meaning behind the practices for a culture lose their meaning and become commercialized. A huge example that comes to mind is the restaurant "Tao" in New York and I think Las Vegas in which it's named after a religion, and has a giant statue of the Buddha in it while diners eat exorbitantly overpriced food to loud dance music and feel "chic". That's when it crosses a line.
But honest curiosity, honest interest, and honest respect? I don't see what's so bad about that...
I'm an Indian American (with family in India).
Look, there's nothing wrong with a non-Indian being interested in Indian culture. You have the right to eat Indian food, practice yoga, watch Hindi films, whatever, etc...
it's just that there are certain types of people who think because they "LOVE" Indian culture and try to absorb themselves into Indian culture, that they think it makes them EXPERTS on Indian culture, Indian history, Indian arts, etc...
I can't tell you how many times these jerks have tried to correct me or tell me that I'm wrong about my own culture and history. You don't know how this really makes me angry.
(P.S ironically, I am VERY interested in Cuban history, politics and culture.. so really I underestand where you are coming from)
I've experienced that with my culture and I just laugh really loud in their faces and thank them for telling me - about- ME ahahahahaaaa
What bothers me most about the nirvana-seekers is that they think India is full of magical, mystical people and a where you can find your spirituality. They impose themselves on a village, where the locals don't want to turn someone away.
Yes, India has beauty and mysticism. But the people who live there are just working for a living, earning money for food, mortgage and to send their kids to college, just like anyone else. They seem to miss that normality in their quest for their own happiness.
That would be pretty understandable. I had a friend who was convinced (for whatever reason) that Cuban food was much more similar to Mexican, when in fact it's closer to Caribbean. I was trying to explain to her that while black beans and rice are a staple, they're not a defining element... But then again she didn't know what a plantain was either, and wouldn't believe me when I said that pork is very frequently eaten...
Anyway. I get what you're saying.
General question: how do you know if you have crossed the line from "cultural appreciation" into "cultural appropriation?" I have a stereotypical picture in my head of course: a complete poser, most likely white, whose sense of self worth relies on being able to "out culture" all of their friends by proving their superior knowledge, understanding and pronunciation of all things Indian/Korean/Native American/etc. But surely it's more nuanced than that. I'm sure many of the people who appropriate other cultures don't see THEMSELVES as posers and truly believe their behavior stems from authentic respect for that culture. I happen to really enjoy yoga, trying new foods, reading about other religions, and learning new languages. So how can I judge when my appreciation for other cultures becomes offensive to the people of those cultures?
(sorry for the double post! server trouble)
I struggle with same question as Jrant, I always worry so much whether i'm crossing the line between being informed/learning/experiencing new things in life, and appropriation. I try to remember what Samhita points out so well in her post: the fact that as a white, non-immigrant woman, whatever cultural practices I may partake in, I am always and forever doing so from a position of privilege. In my efforts to engage in anti-racist feminist praxis in everyday life, I know i will never fully "get it right" and will always have to work on reflexivity ... but in the meantime, the last thing I want is to come across as being a disrespectful culture-stealer :( What should I do? I would really appreciate some reading recommendations on this actually...
Ok I should probably clarify that when I typed "what should i do?" in my post, i wasn't literally asking Samhita to educate my ignorant self as though she was the keeper of some mystical cultural knowledge or something - that is NOT what I meant! I just wanted to convey that it was something i continually struggle with and wanted to express that struggle and see if anyone had book recommendations (i like books). I'm sorry for wording it badly.
I think you cross the line from appreciation into appropriation when you believe, or claim, that you know the culture as well as or better than people who are part of it. So long as your appreciation of something retains an awareness of its being far more complex than what you are perceiving or partaking of, I believe respect is still possible.
Hey "DarkPersephone" Are you Greek?
What about you, i_*muse*? ;)
Yes, part of my mix is Greek. It's said that is where I get my large, round eyes from .
Can you imagine if Greeks started flipping out on Americans for totally twisting and fucking up the concept of Democracy?
and if Greeks went after Italians for their "Italian Bread" and "Italian Dressing" that was actually something they got from their Greek slaves?
One they that does piss Greeks off is theft of their art and artifacts.
but, appropriation~ not so much.
I recall the Greekophiles at the Greek festivals of my youth, being treated well. After being pre-judged wrongly by Anglo's Greeks were glad to be appreciated, even if it was kind of quirky and a bit much~ it beats being excluded.
Now, go rent Zorba the Greek, eat a "Greek Salad" that is really an American invent (Salata in Greece is different that in the US at diners) and yell OPA the next time something awesome happens. Greeks will smile at you for it.
Ancient Greece is probably where the "West" differentiated from the "East" in terms of culture. Ancient Greek philosophy and culture are canonized in modern western culture. Using the name of a greek mythological figure is hardly culture appropriation.
that is exactly my point, duh!
You can enjoy democracy, Greek Philosophy and make Spanokotiropita with tortillas (so much easier and tastes good too), the Greeks I know appreciate that, even when you are so far from the original intention (democracy).
This seems to be an American issue~ We as American are TODDLERS in a world of elders. They alugh at our ridiculous insecurities. I doubt Samhita is an Indian purest or an American purest, I can guarantee she she has appreciated something from another culture and that if we nitpicked and attacked could accuse her of approp. too
but, it's a bull shit concept.
The real problem is prejudice and sometimes - over adoration is a way to get over one's prejudice
go from one extreme to the other before ending up in the middle.
Now, go name your cat Zoe and your fraternity with Greek letters, quote Greek Philosophers and dance the Hasapiko while drinking Ouzo,
I wont hate on you for it.
Ok I also wanted to post something a little different from my earlier comment too, because it plays a major part in where I was coming from ... i might get torn apart for it though. Also: WARNING RHETORICAL QUESTIONS TO FOLLOW:
My life-partner and I are of different cultural backgrounds. Whenever I try to learn more about and experience his cultural roots, I always find myself wondering: is this ok for me to do [X], or am i doing damage here by doing so? i.e.: Am I a total tool for wearing this jade necklace his grandma gave me as a charm? Cuz i don't actually hold her belief that it's going to protect me, I just think it's pretty. Also: if we had a ceremony and I wanted to wear traditional dress from his culture, should I check that desire at the door as signifying some sort of appropriating tendency? What is the source of that desire - does it stem from a problematic exotification of his culture? If it does, how can I address it?
And of course it is made more complicated by gender also: as a couple who is generally interpreted as "hetero", is my interest in his cultural background ALSO giving ground to heteronormative relationship ideals (i.e. "it's HIS background, family, etc. that is important")? It's such a pickle but I don't have any solutions...
This a great conversation, btw!
I'm in a somewhat similar situation. I'm white, and I'm married to an immigrant from the Philippines. Throughout our many years together, I have learned a lot about his culture from him, from his family, and from our travel to the Philippines. I have always felt that learning about his culture was a part of learning about him. Also, I have a desire to know more about it because of my love for him and his family. Plus, we plan on having children, so since I will be raising kids who are half Filipino, I want to be knowledgeable about their culture so I can help teach them about it. This feels respectful to me, not disrespectful. His family is very encouraging of these experiences.
My family's culture is primarily American. Yes, it is a culture, and I feel it is a distinct culture like any other. When I was young, I had older relatives around who had immigrated from Italy and had brought many of their traditions with them. So, I also consider part of my culture to be Italian-American. I also feel that New England culture is a large part of what shaped me. My husband feels like he has learned a lot about all of these cultures from me. Of course, his time spent living in the US has also taught him a great deal about American culture, there are aspects that he has said he understands better because of his relationship with me. His parents have had similar experiences, commenting on their observations about cultural behaviors they've witnessed from my family and in my hometown, and participating. They sometimes ask me cultural questions (about American culture and Italian-American culture). Sometimes they use my Noni's recipes that I've given them and that's ok with me. I feel like their interest in my culture is a part of their love for me.
This a great conversation, btw!
I'm in a somewhat similar situation. I'm white, and I'm married to an immigrant from the Philippines. Throughout our many years together, I have learned a lot about his culture from him, from his family, and from our travel to the Philippines. I have always felt that learning about his culture was a part of learning about him. Also, I have a desire to know more about it because of my love for him and his family. Plus, we plan on having children, so since I will be raising kids who are half Filipino, I want to be knowledgeable about their culture so I can help teach them about it. This feels respectful to me, not disrespectful. His family is very encouraging of these experiences.
My family's culture is primarily American. Yes, it is a culture, and I feel it is a distinct culture like any other. When I was young, I had older relatives around who had immigrated from Italy and had brought many of their traditions with them. So, I also consider part of my culture to be Italian-American. I also feel that New England culture is a large part of what shaped me. My husband feels like he has learned a lot about all of these cultures from me. Of course, his time spent living in the US has also taught him a great deal about American culture, there are aspects that he has said he understands better because of his relationship with me. His parents have had similar experiences, commenting on their observations about cultural behaviors they've witnessed from my family and in my hometown, and participating. They sometimes ask me cultural questions (about American culture and Italian-American culture). Sometimes they use my Noni's recipes that I've given them and that's ok with me. I feel like their interest in my culture is a part of their love for me.
This is a topic that troubles me greatly. What is the invisible line where cultural appropriation becomes, well, appropriate? Does a Westerner have to learn enough about the history and current iteration of a particular art form, religious ritual, type of cuisine, whatever, to no longer be accused of appropriation? I understand the critique that people use Indian culture to make themselves seem more authentic or new-agey or chill or whatever you want to call it. I'm not attacking your statements, this is just something I struggle with a lot, because I'm a white woman who has a deep love for Jamaican dancehall, American hip-hop, Puerto Rican reggaeton, and Indian bhangra and I am very aware of what people from the subcultures that create that music might think. I know that my whiteness and economic privilege means I'm basically listening to the music of people me and mine have oppressed, POC and poor whites, the music of their struggle, and that's fucked up. I know there's nothing wrong with cross-cultural sharing and appreciation, but white Americans seem to do a very selective taking of other cultural forms, and then force their culture on other nations, and I can't ignore that. I know at the end of the day, I love dancehall, hip-hop, reggaeton, and bhangra for the beats and flows and the powerful lyrics, but I do regularly hear people (in my case, black Americans, since I live in the US) complain about whites taking their culture. I don't know how to express that I'm "not like that," but I know I shouldn't expect anyone to listen to that. Saying I'm "not like that" is basically the same as saying, "well I'M not racist." But I don't think I am.
Okay melancholy contemplation over. Samhita, great post.
I am white. I'm really not sure how to deal with the cultural appropriation problem. I am honestly looking for pointers.
Take yoga. I do yoga because I have mild scoliosis and yoga helps tremendously. Like nothing else. It is the way I do not spend my days in pain. This seems to be characterized as cultural appropriation, but I'm not sure why. A specific series of stretches based on a traditional Indian practice helps my back. I'm not claiming to be a yogi, I'm not claiming to be some authority on yoga, I just know that if I do certain stretches I feel better. Granted, this is taking it out of its original context, but the author specifically says it's worse when white people try to put it back into context (playing instruments, chanting). It feels like the only answer is to keep being in pain because I was born with the wrong ethnicity to appreciate the fact that yoga's pretty damn great. I also feel like I must be looking at it wrong to come to that conclusion.
So that is my conundrum. I am not saying my point of view is correct (it is probably wrong), and I am not saying anyone is obligated to teach me. I have done research on this, and the above is the conclusion I came to. It's possible I read the wrong things, but without further guidance I don't think I can find the right things. No one do not owe me further guidance, but I would appreciate it. I do not want to be appropriating anything, but I also want to continue to enjoy the benefits of yoga.
I am Indian American (parents immigrated a few years before I was born, have tons of family still in the motherland) and I don't consider practicing yoga as a form of cultural appropriation (especially if it's helping you, I know how horrible chronic pain is.) Yoga to me has become one of those things that's crossed over and I consider the yoga taught in most studios in the States it an urban American thing rather than something uniquely Indian or Hindu.
It happens all over the States - one of the ones people (over here, anyway) find the most offensive is the declaration "I'm Irish" or "I'm French" from a person who doesn't even have a passport!! Especially when it's done to someone from that country, I know, I used to point it out when I'd have someone say "I'm British" to me, even though they've never left the country before, making it physically impossible! I never understood the shame people seem to feel at just being American - contrary to popular belief most people around the rest of the world admire a lot about the USA, and there IS a history to the country, and culture is sort of like history in action - it's made up of the past AND the present!
That said I can see why Samhita would get even more annoyed - we're not talking donning a sari or cooking a curry, we're talking hijacking large chunks of another person's culture to suit. I guess there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but it could seem a little disrespectful, especially if it's something to do with religious beliefs, and especially if it's then modified to mean something else entirely.
So to Jrant I guess I'd say - trying stuff isn't appropriation, learning about another culture through language or their religion isn't appropriation, a declaration that it's now "you" probably is (especially if you've never been there before). And I love all sorts of foreign food too, nothing wrong with that (although I include McDonalds in that, which is sad as well as disgusting)!
Are you talking about citizenship or ethnicity? I'm the child of a British citizen father and an American citizen mother. I say I'm British-American, because I feel I've been raised with both cultures. I don't think it has to deal with whether or not I visit England. Having a passport and traveling is expensive and not everyone's reality.
Many people's ancestors came to the states against their will. If people want to proclaim a connection with the place of their ancestors, I don't have a problem with that.
And being a history buff, I can completely understand why people wouldn't want to associate themselves with this country, which was founded upon genocide and slavery.
Hi Gretel - I'm not really talking about either citizenship or ethnicity, which are difficult things to pin down to one word or explanation anyway. I'm talking more about describing your life experience. The reason why a lot of people over here(not so much me, because my background's even more mixed up than yours or Thomas' so I get why other people over there don't get this)is talking about life experience and things you have in common. When I say to someone from the US that I'm British it's letting them know generally who I am and where I come from; when I say to someone from the UK that I'm British (although you'd have to be more specific here because there are big differences place to place) it's letting them know we have a shared experience - that's not to confuse it with tradition or culture, which is quite complimentary when other people adopt it, I reckon, or when people acknowledge that's where their ancestors came from.
And I'm a history buff too, so although I know you're right when you say people might be hesitant when associating themselves with the States because of it's past, ALL countries have violent, shameful pasts somewhere in their history. That doesn't then mean that all of their heritage is bad, though, and I don't think it means they should remain ashamed forever of where they come from. The USA is an amazing country!
Thanks, gadgetgal. I understand better where you're coming from now.
Cool - nice to speak to a fellow mixed-up background person like me, too! If people ask me where I'm from it takes me longer to explain what I actually am than to just answer "I'm from around..."
But we are talking about donning a sari or cooking a curry. Read the first two sentences again. She specifically says she's uncomfortable with the "unapologetic" way new agers wear Indian clothes and eat Indian food. I think that's where people are getting so hung up - if even foreign food is forbidden (or requires apology?), what then?
there is a lot of prejudice toward "New Agers" First of all, are the people you call "New Agers" comfortable with that title?
Are they actually participants in the New Thought/ Ancient Wisdom movement?
Since when is it ok to discriminate against people on this site?
Thankfully, I'm far too ethnic (especially in appearance to my fellow Americans) to be called out as such- but my friends who practice Yoga, dance Salsa, work with Sage and other local plants in their spiritual and physical health etc. who look very "white", do not deserve the heaps of hateful prejudice in these comments.
But we are talking about donning a sari or cooking a curry. Read the first two sentences again. She specifically says she's uncomfortable with the "unapologetic" way new agers wear Indian clothes and eat Indian food. I think that's where people are getting so hung up - if even foreign food is forbidden (or requires apology?), what then?
I'm not sure whether she meant specifically the clothes and the food or just the whole "new agers" thing that went with it - sometimes (and although I count some new age people among my friends, and I don't wish to offend them) they can take it a bit far, sort of like they've gone beyond saying "I like your culture" to "I'm a part of your culture".
I don't think an appreciation of something from somewhere else is bad at all - if we didn't want to adopt any other cultures we could even end up not adopting things from the next town over (because culturally they would be slightly different), and how dull would all our lives be then?
First, there are major differences between the experiences of POC dealing with appropriation of their culture by a white majority, which implicates both racism and colonialism, on the one hand; and on the other hand the experience of white folks dealing with their own cultures which may be disappeared and appropriated in a larger white community but whose experiences can't be compared. Samhita's experience and OP are about the first, and yours is about the second. They are related, but significantly different, sets of issues.
Second, I am a Scot. I am an Ethnic Scot. I am a diaspora Scot. Like the majority of Scottish people in the world, my people fled Scotland as as political an economic refugees. Unlike most Scots in the world, my father left in 1959 and cleared customs at (then) Idlewild airport, so I'm first generation born American.
I refuse -- flatly and angrily refuse -- to say that the folks who say behind have exclusive dominion over the culture, as eternal gatekeepers. This implies that those of us who picked up our culture and carried it with us in boxes and bags are impure and second-class. Are the Scots of Cape Breton Island, who were forced from the Highland glens when their homes were burned, less Scots than the Scots in Scotland? They've preserved the Gaelic language better, and they have preserved the fiddle better.
When speaking of a diaspora -- any diaspora -- there is the native culture, and there is the diaspora culture (or many of them). They are related, but Boston Irish culture is not a less valuable or less legitimate culture than native Irish culture. (Not any more unitary, either.) And the culture of Scottish Canadians is not less valid, nor is the culture of Scottish Americans or Scottish Australians less valid than that of native Scots.
Samhita's posts on appropriation always interest me because they resonate in part, though it is obvious to me that the experiences are very different. Nobody knows I'm a Scot unless I disclose it, and there are no social structures here that systematically disadvantage Scots- we get all the white privilege there is. So it's a different experience -- an ethnicity of choice, not one we're labelled with.
But there are some essential similarities in the sense that we have culture that we seek to preserve -- food, clothes, music, sports, language and literature, etc. unique to us. The notion that we who are born in America should just walk away from that and participate exclusively instead in a homogenized McDonaldization of white American mass culture is one that I find ill-advised and frankly offensive.
That was riddled with typographical errors, as my keyboard slowly dies. Where I said "ethinic Scot" the capitalized E was a mistake. Where I said "say behind" I meant "stay behind."
Yes, all great points. Interestingly, yoga, Indian food, literature, are part of American culture now yet they are still defined as explicitly Indian, even if they are diasporic cultural productions. I am an American of Indian descent, but am always marked as Indian so when I do yoga, even tho I have never done yoga with my family, I am just practicing my indigenous culture.
I wonder how much region within the US matters. When you say that yoga is recognized as Indian, I don't find that to be true at all where I am (in the midwest). In fact, I think few people who take yoga here would associate it with India at all. It is more of an urban, yuppie kind of thing that doesn't have the spiritual aspect it does elsewhere in the world. Yoga retreats that our yoga studios plan are to places like Costa Rica and the Carribean, beautiful but definitely not Asian. In fact, I don't ever recall seeing anyone who is Asian (and there is a significant Indian population here) in yoga class with me, so I definitely don't think it's associated with its roots.
I don't understand how "even tho I have never done yoga with my family, I am just practicing my indigenous culture." Maybe I misunderstood. But just b/c you are of Indian descent doesn't make you practicing your indigenous culture, especially if you are learning the American take on yoga and not learning it from someone from your background. And it just really irked me that I felt like there were implications of Americans embracing yoga is somehow wrong in the OP.
I havent read the comments below yet, so perhaps someone else brings this up, but my initial reaction is that people of very specific roots get to experience more things more freely. I feel like its so much easier for people who come with a really strong cultural background to say that American is a culture. While I logically understand that yes being American is a culture, when that is the norm for you it is hard to realize that that IS a culture. Which is why other cultures are probably so fascinating; many people are really interested in things that are different than their experiences. I agree that people shouldn't try to be the experts on a topic if they do not know, but I don't think there should be shaming in people wanting to experience a wide range of things.
I'm not trying to offend, and I really hope I just read something wrong. But these are my initial reactions.
Ok, I get the impression that maybe you've run into this one before and it offended you, which in your instance (which is a bit different from most other people, like me) seems unfair. You father is Scottish - so is mine. My mother is American. I've lived here most of my life but spent 12 of my formative years in the US, so try and suss that one out!
What you've taken as an attack upon your heritage and your culture isn't. As I said to Gretel before acknowledging your background is a good thing, and most people over here would appreciate that fact that you recognise it. One of my good friends whose parents are from Pakistan would either call herself British or Pakistani British, to denote her home country and also her cultural origins. She would NEVER, however, go to visit her family in Pakistan and proceed to tell the locals "I'm Pakistani" - not only is that denying them their shared and very different life experiences, it would be doing it from a position of privilege. She's from a much better off part of the world, and her entire upbringing has been different to theirs, so to say otherwise is quite disrespectful.
I'd have to go with the same response here - Gretel said she calls herself British American, and people here wouldn't really have a problem with that, because although it acknowledges her heritage it's also letting them know that she's aware of the fact that she comes from somewhere different than them, therefore she doesn't share the same common experiences they've had, and acknowledges those differences.
When you call yourself Scottish as opposed to Scottish American that is why people from Scotland seem to get so annoyed. You have a Scottish cultural history but you're American - that puts you not only in the position of privilege (since last I checked the USA ruled the world and Scotland, as well as the rest of the UK, owe big big debts to them and are way way down on the super power league these days) but it would put them in a very difficult position. You practically own us so now you own our life experiences as well? And from our lower world status are we allowed to take that back? Or do we just have to accept what you say and agree our lives are the same even though they clearly aren't?
Also it's the denial of the differences between two very different countries - by implication you've tried to let me know that you know more about Scotland than I do, even though I'm closer to it than your are. You probably do, bookwise, as I'm English. But knowing how little my father knows about living in Scotland now (he left there in the late 60s and left the UK in 1979) I'm a little more sceptical about the importance of that when you're talking about peoples' real lives.
As I said, I personally don't care what you call yourself - from my mixed background you can tell I find it difficult to pin it down as well. But bear in mind, that although your father is a relatively recent migrant, most "Scots" over there are probably further away from that past than you, and to them Scotland tends to mean kilts, haggis and whiskey. Which (as any good Scot today would tell you) has very little to do with their life experiences today, and is even sometimes considered to be a bit insulting, because some people can use it in a derogatory manner. So I'm not denying you your past, or the things you want to do today, I'm just saying that's the reason why some people might find what you say offensive.
Oh, and the crack about McDonalds only came about because it was the only American chain over here that I could think of off the top of my head - I actually prefer Taco Bell but we don't have them here. And, before you go off on one about how the food culture over there is not just fast food, I'll say I love a lot of American food that isn't available here - I still miss the steamed crabs and I would sell my soul for a decent Amish potato salad!
Oh, and just an addendum - saying some people might get offended by the use of certain tags and the confusion that can then arise from it doesn't mean I think that adopting styles, traditions, foods, etc. etc. from other cultures is wrong - I think it's a very good thing to experience as much about other places and people as possible. It usually leads to having a more open mind about people's differences, and just because you're not from a particular place doesn't mean that you should dismiss the art, literature, dance, science, mathematics, engineering - if everyone had done that most of the advances we've made today would not have happened, because they're an amalgamation of more than one set of discoveries from more than one place!
First, I'm not asserting that I know more about Scotland than you, or than your dad. I have no way of knowing: and I also don't think that it matters. I don't argue for culture only defined by a group of well-educated guardians.
I agree that the experiences of native Scots and diaspora Scots are different, and for clarity I generally call myself an ethnic Scot, a diaspora Scot, or a Scottish American.
I argue, however, that those identities are subsets of Scots, and that native Scots is also a subset of Scots.
That's not semantics. It's a claim about who gets to say what is Scottish and not Scottish, what's "authentic," whatever that means, etc. Some native Scots -- folks I can't really have a polite conversation with -- think that the diaspora Scots have an obligation to stay out of it. I'm not moving an inch on that.
I'll give an example: Tartan day. I know the folks who created New York's Tartan Day celebration. They built it from scratch with no help from the Scottish Executive and little from native Scots. Now that it's a roaring success with a whole week of parties, fashion shows, film festival, concert, a church service and a big parade on 6th Avenue, Scottish politicians have found it convenient to come over and march, and the Scottish Executive has attempted to intervene in the event planning on the reasoning that they represent "real" Scots and should be deferred to. We the diaspora Scots in NY tell them to fuck right off, because this is ours -- Tartan Day wasn't celebrated in Scotland to any significant degree, ever, before Scots in the USA, Canada and Australia* took it seriously. It's Scottish because diaspora Scots created it, as part of the culture of diaspora Scots. Native Scots don't get to take it over and redefine it for us by asserting some kind of superior claim over Scottishness. They have an exclusive say in what is native Scottish culture, but not in what is Scottish culture. Scottish Americans have exclusive dominion over what is Scottish American but a shared stake in what is Scottish. And so on.
Look at it this way: do you think native Pakistanis get to come to Britain and tell your Pakistani British friends how to be Pakistani because being native Pakistanis makes them "more" or "real" Pakistani? Hell No, I expect. So by my reckoning, Samhita has a full share in determining what is Indian and what Indianness is as a diaspora Indian, and your friend has a full share in determining what is Pakistani ...
and you and I are Scots, with as much right to not only appreciate but own, interpret and define tartan, Robert Burns, Glenfiddich, Dario Franchitti and the Bay City Rollers. (S-a-tur-day-NIHT! Yes, it's kitsch, but it's our kitsch.)
*(It's a different day outside the US -- it's July 1, marking the end of the Acts of Proscription, which were an effort as cultural elimination, in the rest of the world; in the US that's too close to Independence day and we celebrate on April 6, annivarsary of the Declaration of Arbroath in 1320 which established, among other things, the principle of popular sovereignty in Scotland in service of national independence)
'We the diaspora Scots in NY tell them to fuck right off, because this is ours -- Tartan Day wasn't celebrated in Scotland to any significant degree, ever, before Scots in the USA, Canada and Australia* took it seriously.'
I'm the only Sassenach in my family. I am a Sassenach because I was not born in Scotland, and not raised in Scotland. But I am not English - I am British. It took me a while to accept this, but once I had accepted I was a Sassenach I fitted in better with my extended family.
I have to say that the attitude you show is precisely why 'diaspora Scots' (or progeny of Scottish ex-pats, if you can stomach the term) will be rejected by the 'home land' as their own. Scottish history for a variety of reasons always been a reconstructed history - tartan has been misappropriated since the 19th Century and the whole Clan thing - big vulgar business. My cousin works on Princes Street in a shop that caters mostly to tourists - like all cultures, they will tolerate your feelings of belonging whilst the till is ringing, but titter at your sensibilities.
Hi again - sorry been a few days but business has kept me away from my computer!
I see where we've been getting confused, and still are a bit now, with what each of us has been saying - you're saying that for you it's not a question of semantics, whereas I'm saying for someone from Scotland it is! When you're talking about what's "authentic" Scotland you're referring to the culture, not the place - but when you say to a Scottish person "I'm Scottish" that's what they will think you're referring to. And understandably, if I meet someone for the first time and they ask where I'm from I would presume they mean mean either where I live, where I was born or where I grew up. If I were to spend half an hour describing my ancestry back to the year zero I'd expect them to get a little irritated at not only the time taken but the overly-complex answer to a fairly simple question!
When you mentioned the problems you've had over Tartan Day with the Scottish Executive please bear in mind however much they claim to represent the Scottish people they mostly don't - they represent the privileged classes, which are small and very unlike a lot of the rest of the population. If you have problems with them I wouldn't even put it in the same arena, it sounds more economic and tourism-associated than anything else.
As to the question over whether or not my mate's family come over and tell her how to be "more" or "real" Pakistani, I would have to say the answer to that is yes - they come over with recent papers and magazines, tell her family what's going on in their district, what people are wearing at the moment, how the recent troubles have affected them, etc. etc. Because they are Pakistani and she and her family are Pakistani-British so OF COURSE they have a better idea about it than she does. Because Pakistan is not just a collection of historical dates in a book, or ancient fables, or ex-pat festivals - surprisingly it's also a geographical location where a lot of people live their lives.
I take issue with you calling me a Scot - first of all I'm not, by any definition. I was born in England, lived most of my childhood in the US and then the rest of life in England. If someone asked me where I was from I'd say "England" or "Britain" or, at a push "half-American half-English" because of my upbringing and the fact that I've lived an almost equal amount of time in both. I've been to Scotland a grand total of twice - to say I'm Scottish would give people an inaccurate and misleading description of who I am. I'm also in a similar position of privilege to Scotland as you - England has always been in a privileged position in comparison to other parts of the UK, so to say "I'm Scottish" would be to nullify their very different perspectives and lives compared to mine.
I think to other Americans and possibly other people from round the world it doesn't matter if you want to call yourself Scottish when they ask. I think, though, just for the sake of keeping the peace, and on the understanding that the statement means something different when you speak to someone from the UK, your decision to go with "Scottish American" is good - it denotes your culture but also acknowledges the fact that your are American and that is your home. It then doesn't leave the impression that you might want to be stealing theirs instead! Not sure about the diaspora Scot bit, never heard the phrase before you mentioned it, might be a little confusing since it makes you sound like an ex-pat. But definitely don't go with the "ethnic" Scot - first off, it sounds like it assumes all Scots are white, and secondly it also sounds like you're saying all those white people are genetically the same, and neither one of those things is true. I know in one of your other posts further down you said you don't like that ethnicity is considered to be genetic rather than something that's passed down culturally, but unfortunately that's how most people understand the word. If you're interested in the genetic makeup of Britain then I'd recommend Bryan Sykes "Blood of the Isles" - he's basically made a dna study of the UK, and it's quite fascinating and surprising - we're a much more mixed country than we thought!
Anyway, hope that clarified a little what I meant when I answered you before - take care and all the best for the future. Slà inte mhath!
I'm Japanese and white Americans regularly appropriate all sorts of aspects of my heritage (the obvious manga/anime, kimonos and other clothing, fascination with old Japanese weapons, pop music, movies, sushi, just about every kid in college is so cool because they take a Japanese class, etc.) I actually don't mind it as long as the person holds a legitimate interest in the history of the culture and its immigrants in the US. One of my best friends is a white Japanese major, but I don't mind because she actually studies the history, both of Japan and of Asian-American rights in the US, and has a much greater knowledge than I do. I do, however, mind whites whose knowledge of Japan doesn't extend outside of its pop culture.
Forgive me if I am about to make an ass of myself, but...
I run an anime appreciation club on my campus. Are we wrong to watch anime without studying Japanese history? Or is it okay to watch these TV shows because we enjoy them and find them entertaining?
You are not wrong for appreciating anime without studying japanese history. You are wrong for watching tentacle porn. Don't deny it. You know what I mean. You pervert. ;)
Noooo! My secret is out! XD
I'll LisaCharly answer your question, but I think you raise an interesting question.
More broadly, how do you tell a poser from a hipster? It seems to me a poser selfishly appropriates, maybe exploits, a culture.
Conversely, a hipster is in it for sheer, unadulterated pleasure. They just like it, full stop. And I think that's ok. You don't have to be a PhD in history to like something. When you're in a cross-cultural context though, you should be sensitive to how this might play out.
One of my best friends is Nigerian. When I 1st met her I made the *mistake* of saying, "Oh, you're African? I was over there once." She suddenly started assuming all kinds of things about me...that she later learned weren't true. So I think both sides have to be careful here.
I think the question you should be asking is "why do i find anime in specific entertaining, rather than just cartoons no matter what their cultural origin"? Do you like it because you just like the style of animation/recurrence of themes, or because it's From Japan?
Wow, that's such a good point that you actually blew my mind a little bit. This right here, is going on my privilege-checking tool belt. Thank you!
And for the record: it varies from show to show, but mostly, it's the joy of recurring themes and character tropes. Also, giant robots from space.
This is what I wonder about. As a teenager, I got into manga and anime a lot. It wasn't really until I got to college that I studied anything about Japan's history and current culture, but I've taken classes on Japanese religion and language, and I traveled to Japan for a class where we learned about a lot of the aspects of Japanese culture besides Japanese culture. I also once wrote a paper on how the original message in anime intended for Japanese audiences is lost when translated. However, I listen to Japanese rock music, make Japanese food dishes, collect maneki neko (I just loves cats in general) and will sometimes wear punk-like Japanese clothing. But what I wonder is, does it make me racist to enjoy all these things? Or is there a way for me to like all of these aspects of Japanese culture without appropriating it?
But why Japanese culture? Because it's exotic? Because its pop culture is sewwww kawaii? Because Asians are accepted as white as long as they let themselves be dolled up and fetishized? Because you had an experience with Japanese people or cultures that genuinely enriched your life? Because Asian men are non-threatening, effeminate and sexy? Because all your friends were doing it? Because none of your friends were doing it? Because you saw marginalization of Asians and wanted to understand the context?
There are good, bad, racist and not-racist reasons and not knowing you personally, I can't say what yours were.
I wish I could "like" that more than once.
Good point, reason is everything. And to clarify, I just liked watching anime at first because I liked the art and it made for good tv. It eventually grew into wanting to understand a different culture, and also I just like it. I don't like things just because they are specifically Japanese, and I don't view any culture as 'exotic.' I watched anime as a child,
And I do love all things kawaii because I love cute stuff, Japanese, American, or otherwise.
And it is not your business either.
The point of art is to communicate, to express. It is to be appreciated, not just by those who made it, that would be absurd.
Art, music, dance,
all these things are bridges.
Bringing people together is a good thing. The bridges do that.
Perhaps the first bridge is not steady, it's ugly, it hurts some folks (Elvis) but, the truth is his life was a sacrifice for his art wasn't it? Regardless of the material gain, he died young, sick from one of his arts side effects.
But, before he went, he used AA music and white kids who hadn't given it a listen before ~ loved it. It opened the way for AA to be heard by a larger percentage of the population. Hate that all you want, careers and great music were made. Was he the only bridge? Of course not. He was a major one though.
Bollywood is exposing Indian culture where it had not gone before and I think the two major stars that went on Oprah are glad for the audience.
I'm American and if someone from Japan appreciated my art because it was exotic to them ~ I would not be bothered by that. I'd be happy for the sale and the exposure.
We are all world citizens, alike more than different. The only way for us to really know that on a visceral level is to communicate; sharing our creative expressions is a great way to do that.
I want to preface this by saying I'm typing this while listening to Ayu.
There's a lot of hating going on in respect to the anime fandom. I think, to a certain extent, the anime fandom is a different animal all together from what Samhita is talking about because people don't get into anime and don't get into Japanese pop culture to further their own "coolness". It's still appropriation, but in a different way.
Anime fans, by and large, know they're not getting closer to Japan's cultural heritage by watching television, movies or reading comic books. They know it's popular culture and that most of it is starting to be marketed directly to them. They teach themselves Japanese not to live in a Japanese cultural fantasy but so they can understand the media being presented to them, in the original, on their own terms. While this in and of itself is not cultural appropriation (if anything, it's colonialism and selfishness), I think it can lead to appropriation-like attitudes. Where then, with that understand, people feel they really understand the culture and its nuances. It's not true, but it leads to that false sense of inter-cultural security.
What's often forgotten, and I think this is where it comes together into appropriate but of a different sort, is that just because you can understand doesn't mean you know. With the points being raised in Indian and Arab cultures, you can understand aspects of these cultures and know quite a great deal. You can understand enough to get by in another culture or live for a time by their rules without much cultural upset, but that doesn't mean you're more versed or experienced or actually own that cultural heritage as your own.
I think a lot of this appropriation comes down to a dominant culture not realizing they actually have a culture to begin with. The "norm" is often forgotten to be culture itself. What the appropriators are seeking is to feel different from within the dominant culture and they do that by stealing others' cultural heritages in bits and pieces. I will admit to being a appropriator over time, but I've since wizened to those behaviors. Knowing martial arts makes me no more Japanese, being Buddhist makes me no more Tibetan and speaking French makes me no more culturally (as I am ethnically) French than the people who grew up and live those cultures daily.
It's knowing the difference that makes the line between appropriation and appreciation.
I want to preface this by saying I'm typing this while listening to Ayu.
There's a lot of hating going on in respect to the anime fandom. I think, to a certain extent, the anime fandom is a different animal all together from what Samhita is talking about because people don't get into anime and don't get into Japanese pop culture to further their own "coolness". It's still appropriation, but in a different way.
Anime fans, by and large, know they're not getting closer to Japan's cultural heritage by watching television, movies or reading comic books. They know it's popular culture and that most of it is starting to be marketed directly to them. They teach themselves Japanese not to live in a Japanese cultural fantasy but so they can understand the media being presented to them, in the original, on their own terms. While this in and of itself is not cultural appropriation (if anything, it's colonialism and selfishness), I think it can lead to appropriation-like attitudes. Where then, with that understand, people feel they really understand the culture and its nuances. It's not true, but it leads to that false sense of inter-cultural security.
What's often forgotten, and I think this is where it comes together into appropriate but of a different sort, is that just because you can understand doesn't mean you know. With the points being raised in Indian and Arab cultures, you can understand aspects of these cultures and know quite a great deal. You can understand enough to get by in another culture or live for a time by their rules without much cultural upset, but that doesn't mean you're more versed or experienced or actually own that cultural heritage as your own.
I think a lot of this appropriation comes down to a dominant culture not realizing they actually have a culture to begin with. The "norm" is often forgotten to be culture itself. What the appropriators are seeking is to feel different from within the dominant culture and they do that by stealing others' cultural heritages in bits and pieces. I will admit to being a appropriator over time, but I've since wizened to those behaviors. Knowing martial arts makes me no more Japanese, being Buddhist makes me no more Tibetan and speaking French makes me no more culturally (as I am ethnically) French than the people who grew up and live those cultures daily.
It's knowing the difference that makes the line between appropriation and appreciation.
Not to mention Japan itself appropriates from other cultures at least as much as others do from it...
I studied History and Archaeology, especially surrounding colonialism.
We used to talk about this a lot. The examples that often came up don't really apply here, since the cultures being appropriated are often long dead, but New Agers holding vigils in Maya Tikal or conflating Druidism with Stonehenge are common. To those in the know - either by being anthropologists or members of the original culture in question, it always comes across as being in dreadfully bad taste.
However the question I always had to wonder is: how do you stop them? And do you have any right to stop them? As long as their not being malicious or doing something illegal, you can't punish people for being idiots, any more than I can go to the New Age vigils at Stonehenge and tell them "You can't believe this or practice this because the archaeology says you're wrong."
Equally, I would just point out that cultural appropriation is nothing recent, new or unique to America. The Romans appropriated the image of the Greeks, marketed Greek plays and scholarship; Western civilization has been treating both the Greeks and Romans the same way for hundreds of years. In much the same way as today people are thinking 'it's Indian, or Native, so it's better/more 'spiritual' or whatever, so the Greek, Islamic, Chinese and other civilizations have been copied, and often distorted, by their neighbours.
Islam is a mix of Judaism and Arabic animism, Catholocism mixes with vodou to create Santeria. Buddhism is a new spin on Hinduism, and gets impressed on the mythos of whatever countries it migrates to.
So my other question is, "Is this necessarily bad?" It needn't be good either, it just is. Cross-cultural osmosis has always worked like this, and you tend to eventually end up with a culture that is neither side of the appropriation, but something new. None of the cultures or religions we recognize today would exist without this process, and they will all dissolve into the mix again, sooner or later. That's just normal and I'm not sure we can (or should) stand against it.
As regards situations where inequality is at issue (Samhita, your excellent piece on Burning Man and Native appropriation spring to mind) it is perhaps best to focus on correcting the inequality itself and just let the silly immitators have their fun, as long as (unlike the twit with the sweatlodge in the OP) they're not actually hurting anybody.
Good question. I'm not sure how you stop the New Age wannabes who appropriate cultures, but one step might be to educate their potential followers. Teach them that it is entirely bogus. Teach them that Native American shamans would not charge (esp. $9,000!) for a sweat lodge ceremonies. And usually these ceremonies are not open to cultural tourists!
I find this resource helpful: http://www.newagefraud.org/
Aye! Hiberniores Hibernis ipsis, and all that.
To echo the other posters- I'm white. I think Indian food is delicious, and I think the Indian "peasant shirt" is probably the most comfortable (and stylish) item of clothing I have ever worn. Am I appropriating?
The sweat lodge situation was very saddening to me because I really enjoyed the episode of 30 Days where Morgan Spurlock lived with a family on the reservation. He participated in a sweat lodge ritual at the end of his 30 days during which he learned about the res, participated in various community rituals, and learned some of the language. His guide was extremely knowledgeable and wary of putting Spurlock's health at risk. Spurlock was challenged by the experience but got a great deal out of it. It's frightening to read how Ray had broken down those people physically and mentally before putting them in the sweat lodge, and then completely failing to read how dangerous the added strain on their bodies was. It's tantamount to taking the traditional Catholic communion ceremony and having people drink their own blood after running a marathon.
I'm in the same boat as a lot of the commenters here. It's difficult to know when you are guilty of appropriation. I identify as Italian, and am intensely enthusiastic about my family traditions and foods - so my enjoyment of food, films, clothes, from other cultures are not an attempt at ownership. But I also benefit from white privilege, so I don't necessarily know when my interest becomes problematic.
I mean, I love Bollywood movies because they're good movies. A melodramatic love story complete with musical numbers, how can I say no? So is that appropriation?
Two weekends ago I went with my housemate to a Diwali celebration, and she loaned me an outfit to wear (I won't dare to attempt to spell the name), was that okay? If she brings me a present from home after a school break, is it weird if I wear or use it? I like to hope not, but I'm also not going to claim exemption because "my friend is X ethnicity".
I live in Nevada, where "Mexican" food is very popular. Is it appropriation to get lunch at Roberto's Taco Shop? I wouldn't doubt it, but is the fact that the food is tasty a good excuse?
Samhita, thank you for posting this, it really got me thinking.
I studied History and Archaeology, especially surrounding colonialism.
We used to talk about this a lot. The examples that often came up don't really apply here, since the cultures being appropriated are often long dead, but New Agers holding vigils in Maya Tikal or conflating Druidism with Stonehenge are common. To those in the know - either by being anthropologists or members of the original culture in question, it always comes across as being in dreadfully bad taste.
However the question I always had to wonder is: how do you stop them? And do you have any right to stop them? As long as their not being malicious or doing something illegal, you can't stop people being nitwits, any more than I can go to the New Age vigils at Stonehenge and tell them "You can't believe this or practice this because the archaeology says you're wrong."
Equally, I would just point out that cultural appropriation is nothing recent, new or unique to America. The Romans appropriated the image of the Greeks, marketed Greek plays and scholarship; Western civilization has been treating both the Greeks and Romans the same way for hundreds of years. In much the same way as today people are thinking 'it's Indian, or Native, so it's better/more 'spiritual' or whatever, so Islam contains a mix of Judaism and Arabic animism, Catholocism mixes with vodou to create Santeria. The principles and structure of the Roman Republic were used as a basis for the government of the United States.
So my other question is, "Is this necessarily bad?" It needn't be good either, it just is. Cross-cultural osmosis has always worked like this, and you tend to eventually end up with a culture that is neither side of the appropriation, but something new. None of the cultures or religions we recognize today would exist without this process, and they will all dissolve into the mix again, sooner or later. That's just normal and I'm not sure we can (or should) stand against it.
As regards situations where inequality is at issue (Samhita, your excellent piece on Burning Man and Native appropriation springs to mind) it is perhaps best to focus on correcting the inequality itself and just let the silly immitators have their fun, as long as (unlike the twit with the sweatlodge in the OP) they're not actually hurting anybody.
Stupid double-post...
I'm in the same boat as a lot of the commenters here. It's difficult to know when you are guilty of appropriation. I identify as Italian, and am intensely enthusiastic about my family traditions and foods - so my enjoyment of food, films, clothes, from other cultures are not an attempt at ownership. But I also benefit from white privilege, so I don't necessarily know when my interest becomes problematic.
I mean, I love Bollywood movies because they're good movies. A melodramatic love story complete with musical numbers, how can I say no? So is that appropriation?
Two weekends ago I went with my housemate to a Diwali celebration, and she loaned me an outfit to wear (I won't dare to attempt to spell the name), was that okay? If she brings me a present from home after a school break, is it weird if I wear or use it? I like to hope not, but I'm also not going to claim exemption because "my friend is X ethnicity".
I live in Nevada, where "Mexican" food is very popular. Is it appropriation to get lunch at Roberto's Taco Shop? I wouldn't doubt it, but is the fact that the food is tasty a good excuse?
Samhita, thank you for posting this, it really got me thinking.
Personally I have to say I prefer that America adopts all of these cultures to any of the alternatives. When immigrants come to the US there is an exchange, they adopt many of the western ideals (such as beliefs in individualism and liberalism) At the same time the US adopts elements of their culture. This points to a healthier immigration system. If the US did not adopt any of the cultural elements then it would simply be a monolithic assimilation. If the immigrants did not adopt any of the US's cultural elements then it would point to an isolated community which is also undesirable.
But if you have two groups of people interact there is going to be an exchange of those cultural values. Its a normal and largely positive thing. Yes, you get hipsters who seem way too into it, at the same time you have things such as English text being used as a design element in Japan.
Cultural appropriation -- in the terms Samhita is discussing -- is a far cry from the events that happened in that sweat lodge.
Eating another culture's food, wearing their clothing, on and on (with the exception of spiritual practice) toes a line with -- for the lack of a better word-- appreciation, which is condescending in its own right. How can we, especially in an era of globalization, appreciate what other peoples have to offer us without orientalizing it? We have to recognize that increased interactions mean increased boundary crossings, which some might consider appropriate and others might consider appropriation.
But what happened in that sweat lodge goes beyond that -- that's far beyond taking some peyote in the desert on your own and calling it a spiritual quest. What happened in that sweat lodge is taking the traditions of a people that white Americans systematically and viciously slaughtered, victimized, and oppressed and using them to further that process. We must ask ourselves what our responsibility (and outright hubris) is in believing we can reap the benefits of another's spiritual practice without ACTUALLY BELIEVING IT.
The post wasn't only about the sweat lodge. She expressed discomfort with white people doing yoga and eating Indian food as well:
"...the unapologetic way self-proclaimed new-agers would appropriate Indian culture. Wearing Indian inspired clothing, listening to Indian music, eating Indian foods, studying Indian traditional medicine and of course, practicing yoga (including all various types of chanting and instrument playing)."
I struggle with this on a daily basis- I am [an American born, white, European american college student] living, for the semester, on a Lakota reservation in South Dakota and I'm picking up little nuances in my mannerisms, words, and thought patterns that I keep having to double take to wonder if they're appropriate or appropriating. Is it awkward when I see a bunch of (other) white people in my workplace (something that has only happened once) and my first thought is "what are all those white people doing here?" Yes, it is- because I know every time I walk into the casino to get coffee, people wonder the same thing.
But, back on topic- Indian Country Today had a few good commentaries on the sweat lodge incident and New Agers in general this past week: http://www.indiancountrytoday.com/archive/64486777.html (the only one I could find online, unfourtunatly)
Good post. I thought this one was good, too: http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/news/opinion/article_103bc67e-be8f-11de-b1a6-001cc4c002e0.html
When I first read this, I thought I must have interpreted you wrong, but it seems like everyone else is having the same question. Are you saying it is not alright to try things taken from other cultures? That surprised me coming from a blogging website that tries so hard to preach tolerance. America is a melting pot of cultures since everyone here has ancestors that immigrated from somewhere. It should be a sign of progress to me that people are even interested in learning about other cultures rather than brushing them off as hedonistic or barbaric. You will always find people who will exploit anything really (it doesn't even have to something specifically cultural) to make a buck, and this man in Arizona certainly did that with tragic consequences, but that doesn't make ever white person who wants to try yoga an exploiter. Is a white person who immerses herself in Indian culture by wearing Indian clothing, eating Indian food, and practicing yoga really deserving of being coined a "new ager" who is just doing it to be cool? Maybe she has just finally found the culture that suits her to make her feel at home in her own skin.
So anyway, I kind of took your post to mean people should stick to practicing their own cultures and leave yours alone. It sounded as unfair as telling someone he has to be a boy because he was born a boy even if he feels otherwise. We don't choose our ancestry or even the culture we grow up in, but we are in the world to explore and find our true being. How am I, as a American white woman, supposed to do that if I'm not allowed to explore other cultures? I can't imagine what I would eat other than hot dogs.
Someone who finds a culture that suits them more does sound pretty appropriating. I think that at the line where you're wearing the clothes you're advertising "Hey, I'm special because I'm culturally open minded!" Yoga can be good exercise and I've not felt more spiritual or more cultured for it. I'm also not acting like anything other then a hungry white guy when I do dim sum or Korean barbecue. It doesn't make me more cultured, it just makes me more able to find awesome food.
If you feel that another culture suits you better because of it's values then you can live those values without advertising to the world that you're living those values. Wearing a style of clothing, unless it's to cover certain parts for modesty isn't a value. I'll adopt values or philosophies where I find them, but I don't get a complimentary hat or shirt to go with them.
I tend to feel the same about people dressing in the manner of another culture that I feel about people with flamboyant tattoos, they're just trying to appear interesting. They also have elaborate explanations to go with them.
Oh yeah, and I don't see that many Indians wearing those peasant shirt things. I think that those are made for hippies who travel around India smoking a lot of pot.
I'm guessing that people from the culture you're imitating feel similarly to lesbians irritated by fashionably bisexual straight chicks.
James, your remark about "fashionably bisexual" women elides a whole discussion of biphobia.
If you don't have a whole thought about the complicated interrelationship between the lesbian community, biphobia, compulsory sexual performance and the gaze, then this was a thoughtless toss-off that you should not have written.
If you do have an actual understanding of what you referenced, it would be a threadjack to post it here.
Way to establish your superior persnicketiness. I knew that I should have included bisexuals as being irritated by fashionably bisexual chicks as well, since it's really their identity that straight chicks are using for fun. These posts would all be too long if we had to detail all of our relevant experiences every time.
No, there doesn't need to be a topic derailing discussion about this. I think that the analogy is valid, and that you might be kind of a dick, but I'd need a much broader context to be sure of that. If you don't feel that there's any loose validity to the analogy, then feel free to argue that rather than being the topic police. I figured that the issue would be familiar enough to the population of this blog so as to not be controversial.
You can call me a dick if you want, but I've been called much more imaginative things before. I particularly like "totally serious insufferable douche."
Familiarity does not bear an inverse relationship to controversy. Some of the most intractable arguments are also the most familiar.
"How am I, as a American white woman, supposed to do that if I'm not allowed to explore other cultures? I can't imagine what I would eat other than hot dogs."
Samhita actually addressed this in her post when she referred to the idea that white Americans "don't have" culture. It's like air; just because you've never known life without it and therefore don't notice it doesn't mean it's not there. I mean, hot dogs? Really? I can think of at least ten other American foods off the top of my head. The American suburbs may seem bland, but to someone from another country (or even some city kids) it's like being on Mars. We have our own music, TV, movies, literature, values. I'm posting my own comment down below that addresses the other things you said so I don't want to sound like a broken record, but Americans definitely do have our own distinct culture.
hot dogs = frankfurters
Haha, I actually deleted my digression in this comment about how adapting other cuisines to our own taste IS American culture, because I felt it would give mixed messages. But yes, hot dogs are derived from frankfurters. And like Chinese people who would never eat Panda Express, most Germans probably want nothing to do with the end product.
But I think Germans would eat Panda Express, though. And the Japanese mall near me has onigiri (rice balls) with hot dogs or Spam in them. Here in Chicago taco/burrito joints probably now outnumber hot dog joints (though no one eats burritos in Mexico, or flour tortillas for that matter, my Mexican coworker tells me). Much the way that curry restaurants outnumbered chippies (fish and chips joints) in England when I visited recently. Yet their curries tasted disctinctly different from the ones I get on Devon ave in Chicago, and I would imagine that neither of them taste quite like the stuff back in India. Then again, India probably has a million different regional flavors and styles of curry. And their curry in turn tasts different from the Thai green curry I like with coconut milk.
And don't even get me started on bahn mi.
Spot on - I've noticed that in both the US and the UK, but more about accents. In either country (because I don't really sound like I'm from either one) I get people saying "Wow, I LOVE people with accents", not realising that they too have accents, just a different one to mine, but they don't notice it because it sounds more like the people they know. To people from anywhere else they sound exotic!
James, I guess I was trying to say, why can't I be culturally enlightened. Personally, I like yoga and Chinese food without doing any background info on where they came from, but if someone was so entranced by Chinese food that he/she decided to embrace the culture, the morals, the beliefs, the clothing, the music, whatever, why shouldn't they be allowed to express that? I also think that saying you can live those values without advertising it is like telling someone to be ashamed of themselves. My point was, if you truly believe in the values of another culture, you should be allowed to freely show that regardless of your race. And further, how can you know what you truly believe without experiencing things outside your own culture?
elsmith7, hot dogs was just an example and mostly a joke as people always act like that's some type of all-American food. I'm not denying that there is an American culture, but it is, and always has been, derived from the intake of other cultures. If we were never, from the beginning of America, allowed to practice other cultures, we would not be a diverse nation, but rather divided into factions from where ever our ancestors immigrated from practicing the cultures of own motherland. In that case, there would be no American culture.
Whoops, I addressed this in another comment before I saw yours (see above). But I think Samhita is talking about a very specific behavior here, and not just sharing cultures. My long-ass comment about what I think appropriation is is at the bottom of the thread, but I think it boils down to respecting other cultures and enjoying (for example) their food because you genuinely appreciate it, not to try to gain something (culture, enlightenment, spirituality, coolness) from it.
James, I guess I was trying to say, why can't I be culturally enlightened. Personally, I like yoga and Chinese food without doing any background info on where they came from, but if someone was so entranced by Chinese food that he/she decided to embrace the culture, the morals, the beliefs, the clothing, the music, whatever, why shouldn't they be allowed to express that? I also think that saying you can live those values without advertising it is like telling someone to be ashamed of themselves. My point was, if you truly believe in the values of another culture, you should be allowed to freely show that regardless of your race. And further, how can you know what you truly believe without experiencing things outside your own culture?
Kate, I'm sorry that I missed your comment as there are a lot of them here. I believe that all cultures are filled with good and bad. Underneath all the culture, people really aren't any more petty or enlightened. I think that you're choosing to only adopt a crude representation of something you like when you buy into a culture. It's like wearing a caricature of that culture. India for example has so many cultures within it with so many religions, styles, and values. In some areas taxi drivers are friendly, and in others they have reputation for ripping off travelers. Cultures are gritty things that go far beyond the gift store trinkets associated. The food, dress, and art is just the tourist department side of it.
Authentic food can be awesome, but it's not the culture. It can be eaten anywhere by anyone. How I eat Chinese food and how Chinese people eat it is different. My chop sticks mastery doesn't make me more cultured. The interactions at the Chinese table and the attention paid to each other due to age or status, those are where the culture is. The whole thing about the youngest person having to pour tea for the others and keep the little cups full is where the culture is. To think that it's in the food and clothes is to oversimplify it.
Have you ever seen American white people at a restaurant that gives you food on trays, but then buses the tables so you don't have to yourself. They get confused and upset and thoroughly check that there's no trash can before walking out, still wary that they'll be called on leaving a messy table. That's part of American culture. It's been said that America is a place where people don't know how to greet each other. They don't know if they're going to shake hands, hug, do one of those cheek kiss things, or just say hi without touching. There are things that we believe that we're not supposed to talk about in polite company, or things we're not supposed to do in public.
With the music, the clothes, and the food you're just skinning a culture and wearing it's fur in an attempt to be it.
I feel that the wonderful thing about being a faceless white person in the US is that we don't have a culture written in stone. If you like the way that certain people from another culture treat each other, because maybe it's warmer and friendlier, you can treat people that way and change the slice of American culture around you. You can look at how things in other cultures are better and trade those ways of living and seeing the world for your own. I think that that's respectful and enlightened, unless of course you broadcast how what you're doing is from such and such culture and that you deserve a cookie for being so enlightened. I think that being culturally enlightened is in not judging other cultures by your cultural standards and re-evaluating your own beliefs in light of the beliefs of others.
Sorry for the long ramble. Please understand that I don't think poorly of you for wanting the things that you do.
the difference is, and you said it yourself, you have a choice. i don't. you can pick and choose and construct your chosen culture using parts of other cultures if you want, but you are starting from the "neutral" norm as a white american (which, if you are not, excuse me for assuming). and you can always go back to that starting point. the place you are coming from is different from the place a POC is coming from.
i think i understand the spirit of your comment, and i agree every person's culture is learned and affected by the choices we make, but i hope what i am saying makes sense too.
Please understand the one does not understand a culture until one knows the people.
You can read the books, wear the clothes, go to some class...but that isn't it.
Culture is lived. It is ever changing and alive. Once you have a personal relationship with another human being of that culture and you still feel the need to be "that person" than ASK! ask how they feel about it and how they react to it.and hopefully they can be honest.
and yes the experience for people of color is different. white people can always be supportive allies to a group but can never speak for them.
ONE LOVE
The sweat lodge situation was very saddening to me because I really enjoyed the episode of 30 Days where Morgan Spurlock lived with a family on the reservation. He participated in a sweat lodge ritual at the end of his 30 days during which he learned about the res, participated in various community rituals, and learned some of the language. His guide was extremely knowledgeable and wary of putting Spurlock's health at risk. Spurlock was challenged by the experience but got a great deal out of it. It's frightening to read how Ray had broken down those people physically and mentally before putting them in the sweat lodge, and then completely failing to read how dangerous the added strain on their bodies was. It's tantamount to taking the traditional Catholic communion ceremony and having people drink their own blood after running a marathon.
I am white, from the midwest, and for 3 years lived in Penang Malaysia. While there, local kids around our American school were very eager to pick up on the vocabulary, clothing styles and hobbies of myself and our classmates. The local friends of our parents would give them hundreds of dollars to purchase American clothing when we would travel back to the US.
Once returning to the States, my sister, especially, could never really let go of the experience. She wears traditional clothing of the three major ethnic groups in Malaysia, and rarely eats anything that's not based in Southeast Asian cuisine.
Neither of these scenarios is wrong. None of us "own" our ethnic or racial culture; both are fluid concepts that mean something different to each who identifies within them. Trends will always come and go, but I do not believe that it negates the cultural identity of any group beacause some aspect of their culture is made popular in the mainstream.
Hi, I'm white and I enjoy X. Because you brought the topic up, will you please assuage my guilt, brown person? Exactly how far can I go before you accuse me of the scary-sounding bad thing?
Fellow commenters, your privilege and ignorance are showing. Take a step back, go read some more about cultural appropriation, ruminate, repeat as necessary.
THANK YOU.
I have done research. The research I've done indicates that cultural appropriation is a sort of messy thing to think about and not everyone comes at it from the same angle. This specific person said that eating Indian food and doing yoga is appropriation. Yes, since she brought up that it is appropriation for white people to do yoga, I asked if she could explain why. I did not demand. I asked. Sometimes I ask blog authors for clarification. If they don't give it, fine, but since they're the one who floated the idea, they are the one I ask first for clarification about what they wrote. She's not some representative of some monolithic group of "cultural appropriation" arbiters, so I would like it if she clarified HER position. She is the only one who can do that.
I definitely appreciate where you're coming from, but I'd like to add that I don't think that summation applies to all the commenters. For one, Samhita's post invites dialogue by asking the question of where appreciation meets appropriation and acknowledging that it's a difficult subject. Secondly, a lot of the comments have a rhetorical or contemplative tone rather than an assuming or entitled one. Not saying all of them, and I do understand your annoyance.
I've been staying out of this discussion because I knew I'd be called on exactly the same thing that you just called other commenters on.
Let me get this out of the way. You're right. I, a White, able-bodied, cis, middle class woman have an extraordinary amount of privilege that I don't even realize because I'm blind to it.
It's entirely fair fo Samhita to call me others on that privilege.
However, the first paragraph was a little unclear or ambiguous. Was Samhita saying that listening to Indian music was appropriating Indian culture or that it was one thing among many, in conjunction with being a self-proclaimed new-ager, that signaled that a person was appropriating Indian culture?
I assumed, based on the research I've already done to try to combat the blindness that comes with my privilege, I knew where the goal posts of appropriation were. However, because of the first paragraph of the OP, I might have assumed wrongly. Asking for clarification of that ambiguous paragraph, asking if I was really so far off, seemed in order.
"Was Samhita saying that listening to Indian music was appropriating Indian culture or that it was one thing among many, in conjunction with being a self-proclaimed new-ager, that signaled that a person was appropriating Indian culture?"
No, she specifically said that typical New Ager mindless use of *all those things* together without understanding the culture they come from constitutes appropriation.
That said, the responses all piling up may be the result of several different readers all composing responses at the same time, rather than not realizing someone made their point already.
When you think you've read "don't listen to Indian music," you want to be respectful, but it seems like an awfully unpleasant idea, that you must stick to your own culture or be accused of appropriation and ugly racism.
Had they gone back and read it again, they wouldn't have had to respond.
More like "hi, I'm white and I enjoy X. Because you brought the topic up, will you clarify whether or not you think my experience fits your description of appropriation?"
Samhita's post seemed to indicate that her definition of appropriation was different than the assumptions made by many other people. Seeking clarification on this point doesn't really strike me as a terrible, offensive, inappropriate, demanding exercise in privilege, nor does it seem likely to be an imposition on Samhita herself, who is presumably posting here not to enjoy the glory of seeing her words in print, but rather to establish dialogue, further education and enact change.
Hi, I'm white and I enjoy X. Because you brought the topic up, will you please assuage my guilt, brown person? Exactly how far can I go before you accuse me of the scary-sounding bad thing?
Fellow commenters, your privilege and ignorance are showing. Take a step back, go read some more about cultural appropriation, ruminate, repeat as necessary.
It is this type of arrogance that turns me off of commenting on this site. Not everyone is going to have a complete understanding of the topic, and it exactly through such discussions that the basis of an education be formed. Get off the pedestal and give people the benefit of the doubt.
Okay, I'm going to re-post in the thread I had wanted to place it.
...the thing is there are many, many commenters asking the SAME QUESTION.
It seems to me that first two comments by Jrant and Deafbrowntrash more or less ask and answer the question posed by the majority of white commenters here.
By repeating the same question other commenters have asked and answered shows that you either a) didn't read through all the comments before asking your question (kind of annoying) or b) you are just looking for somebody to validate you and assure you that you aren't racist or appropriating or whatever. And nobody is obligated to do that.
I was about to post and clarify my position, but you just about nailed it roseored. Thanks.
Yep, and that's maybe a problem. But that's not the problem that SociologicalMe was noting. S/he didn't say "these questions have already been asked," s/he said (basically) "these are not okay questions to ask." Huge difference.
or c) When you started to post there were zero comments, but by the time you finished posting there were several comments ahead of you that were saying the same thing. I swear to you that is what happened to me.
That does happen.
are you kidding me? are you telling me that all the commenters on this post can't tell the difference between appreciation and appropriation?? why is it that some white folks get SO OFFENDED at posts like this and go off all huffily on how "i guess i should never eat indian food and never do yoga again"?
there is a difference between appreciation and appropriation. please tell me that people comprehend the fact that it's messed up in junior high when the cool white girls in school wore bindis b/c madonna did it, but you wouldn't catch me dead wearing one. why? it wouldn't be cool for me to do it. i'd have to suffer questions about what the dot means, and be branded as a weird ultra religious FOB. tell me people understand that it's fucked up that as a kid i felt the only socially acceptable context for me to wear the traditional cultural dress of my ethnic background is on HALLOWEEN.
so, people who are complaining about how cultural appropriation doesn't apply to them: if you are sensitive enough to ACTUALLY think about it without brushing it off without a second thought, then these charges probably don't apply to you. but this isn't about you! it's about the people from whose cultures things are being appropriated.
and this entire rant loses sight of the fact that unthinking, unknowing, ignorant appropriation of native american culture led to actual deaths. that is just disgusting on so many levels.
Sounds like you and I had really similiar middle school experiences. I once had a really close friend ask me "But you don't really believe that, do you?" when I was explaining some holiday to her. Another friend was amazed that there were so many statues of Hindu deities in my house and would actually wrinkle her nose at them. And one of my teachers laughed in my face once when I told her my mom's a vegetarian (I think they had assigned her to bring something with turkey in it to some PTA thing.)
I'm a little jealous of the Indian-American kids in middle school now. I would never have imagined anything Indian being desirable or trendy fifteen years ago.
yeah, things have changed a bit since we were younger (i certainly hope so at least), and i've also matured to a point where i have better understanding of and reaction to racism, and a better idea of my cultural identity.
however it definitely raises my ire when posts like these, with comments like these come up. as much as people say they want to understand, i feel like a lot of people are not actually trying to understand at all.
Just wanted to chip in as an Indian who lives in India. There's no major "position of privilege" issue for a foreign expat who comes to India, so I view adoption of Indian culture as appreciation, not appropriation.
A few things do piss me off however:
1) Exaggerating the awesomeness of Indian culture - family values, "colours and smells", "poor people smile despite having nothing" (yes I really heard that).
2) Religious converts like the hare krishnas. I was once accosted on the streets of Bangalore by a white guy dressed in saffron who wanted to tell me about karma. Perhaps he could tell I'm one of those westernized non-religious Indians. :)
3) Medical quackery of the "It's from ancient India therefore it works!" variety. (Insert mumbo-jumbo about yoga/ayurveda/chakra-balancing/pranic healing etc. here.)
I understand how you feel. I've felt the cringe of watching someone buy something of religious and cultural significance as a cute trinket. It has cultural cachet, but they just don't quite care why. I'm white, and only spent 7-8 years of my life in South Asia, but I know what you're talking about. I'll bet it's obnoxious to see your culture reduced to a fashion accessory and to see someone get credit for being culturally enlightened when they have no idea as to the meanings or purposes behind the things they've appropriated.
Speaking of that, I live in Orange County, "The Cultural Capital of the World", and I love the contributions that other cultures make here. We've got Vietnamese, Korean, Chinese, Middle Eastern, and of course Mexican super markets. All of those cultures come with their own selection of authentic restaurants, including French cuisine appropriated by the Vietnamese. There are Indian areas, but I've yet to see an Indian market on the "super" scale. I don't pretend to be more culturally enlightened, just more diverse in my tastes in food, and I really do love the wealth of authentic cuisine.
While new age people are appropriating culture at one end, and fitness oriented people are bastardizing yoga, those other cultures are changing Orange County culture as well. Their presence changes people's habits and tastes. People don't go get a Vietnamese sandwiches and a cafe sua da to show how cultured they are, but because those things have become part of their everyday food selection options. I understand how having your culture appropriated as a fashion by the pretentious can be obnoxious, but it can be beautiful when a culture actually changes people. Beautiful and delicious that is.
I'm amazed at how many people have referred to the United States as a "melting pot." It's an extremely loaded term, especially because of its association with assimilation to the dominant culture. I'm going to assume that's not what commenters meant, but that's how I've understood it.
yes, the use of the very loaded "melting pot" almost proves the whole point. "other" cultures are expected to blend in, mix together, and make every effort to not stand out, and to adapt to the norm (the norm being white christian culture). this completely ignores the power dynamics of superculture and subculture. the dominant culture's borrowing of various practices of the marginalized culture is problematic. this is not a "melting pot."
I don't think "melting pot" connotes assimilation at all, I think it connotes a blending & sharing of cultures. Certainly some reactionaries try & twist it into that (Lou Dobbs comes to mind) but I they are definitely twisting the term.
That said, someone in college once said, "salad bowl" might be a better descriptor.
The reason that folks often use the "salad bowl" metaphor is that melting pot does connote assimilation. When things melt together, the thing there is a lot less of becomes much less distinct. That's the whole point of the metaphor and the purpose of the idea.
I personally appreciate the Canadian "mosaic" ideal
Which has its own problems-- it means that we can pat ourselves on the back for being all 'multicultural', while ignoring the high degree of assimilation that is still expected of new immigrants, how 'whiteness' is problematically non-defined in Canada, and the continuing marginalization of the native population.
Sorry, I'm not criticizing your statement; I think that the mosaic idea is one of the better ones out there (I know multicultural week used to be one of most exciting times in my high school)... but I still think that Canadians need to be a little bit more critical of the problems/hypocrisy behind our 'multicultural' ideals.
I was referring to an old School House Rock Episode, "The Great American Melting Pot". http://www.schoolhouserock.tv/Great.html Like cattrack2 said, it is meant to refer to a blending of cultures, not assimilation. Even before people from non-European nations came to America, there were different cultures being practiced throughout the US. Everyone did not assimilate to become one in the same. Agreed that the salad bowl reference is probably more accurate.
This thread reminds me of this comedy sketch
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5147636284090988855#
I find it very hard to tell the difference between appreciation and appropriation but find it interesting to see the differences between cultures. I think the idea of how we communicate and the subtext behind words changes a lot between cultures and that is very difficult to truly understand. I do think though from a white British point of view it would very easy for someone from another country to understand British culture more than I do because for me things are instinctive while they have the advantage of learning a culture by rules. While I think this makes it harder to fit in I think it means people from an ethnic background have an advantage in understanding the British culture in that they have something to contrast it to.
I am also interested what people feel about American culture being appropriated in other countries, for example the reference to University as College in the UK although it is technically incorrect? Or even the success of Hollywood movies and appreciation of American actors. Similarly what about the phenomena of white weddings outside of UK or even within the UK where the cultural implications of such an event are not properly understood? See wikipedia article for some history http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_wedding I have to admit having very little understanding of the meaning behind weddings and where rituals came from until seeing a documentary on this subject which I found fascinating.
A final aspect I find interesting is as a child I was forced to partake in many 'cultural events' such as May Pole dancing, country dancing etc but with no appreciation for the culture behind such events. Is it more cultural appropriation for me to take part in these events because they are pretty than someone abroad who is interested in the meaning of these events?
I think that in the end culture is about a lot more than food and particular dress et and I don't know whether it is unfair to appreciate these things without a greater understanding of the culture. Certainly I don't feel I have a greater understanding of my culture than the food and events and while I find the copying of these events abroad often slightly bemusing it doesn't upset me. I'd also be prepared to accept with ease that someone who had participated in these events abroad had a greater understanding of British culture than me.
I started practicing Yoga because it is beneficial to asthma and I was dying. Modern western medicine alone was not enough to keep me alive.
I also worked with European and native American herbal remedies.
I learned TM and meditated daily.
I survived the extreme form of Asthma I was born with.
When I started teaching Yoga, it was to give back to the world, the gift that saved my life. Though I know the Sanskrit names of poses, I use English for my American, English speaking students. I feel no need to show off my knowledge of Sanskrit, but, rather feel committed to communicating clearly with the students I am making suggestions to.
I began with the Indian chants, but, soon enough was engaging with the students in creating our own chants in English.
Once I moved to L.A. where Yoga is a lot more popular than my previous home, I found people were taking it all waaaaay too seriously. I started chanting ha ha ha ho ho ho he he he
and getting my students to laugh.
I would never be called out for appropriation because I can "pass" for Indian. I am not Indian and have no Indian blood that I know of.
If someone did call me out for it though, I would remind them that Yoga is a gift to be shared, not kept in secret or hiding. It is inclusive, not exclusive.
We're all mixing mixing mixing
lets be inclusive and have compassion for the annoying Americans who are like tourists gobbling up the sights of your culture.
Our culture is the only one that has blending and mixing at it's core and needs to do that in order to survive.
I do not believe our ancestor wish us to be exclusive.
"I am not Indian and have no Indian blood that I know of."
I don't like the idea that ethnicity is genetic. I argue for a definition of ethnicity that turns on the familial handing-down of cultural practices and/or identity.
Otherwise, we're leaving adopted people out. That raises some questions, but to my mind, the alternatives are much worse.
I am American / born in the USA.
My parents are not.
I don't say I am their nationality, I say I am American and my parents are _________.
I wont say where they are from here as I wont take on the responsibility of representing their cultures.
I was born here, educated here, hung out here. I was punk rock and an avant-gard artist, and a yoga teacher.
I also stripped as a way to survive in this society with the illness I was given. I am not so much like my cousins who live in "the old country". As far as they are concerned
I am very American. But, because of the way I look, I am not considered American by my fellow Americans. I also speak more than one language and the culture within the home I grew up in was a contrast what was just outside the door, but, I'm in my 40's so that was a distant past.
American culture is a mixed culture. We pick and choose which parts of the "old world" cultures become part of American culture as we stay here for generation after generation.
My son was not raised in an "ethnic" home as I was, he was raised by artists. American artists.
To ask some people to not practice certain cultural expressions is as absurd as forcing others to.
No one owns knowledge, recipes, choreography, cloth exclusively in our world-
thank goodness.
Can you imagine if everything we took from Greek culture was considered "taboo" or "appropriation"?
We'd be fucked.
All this entirely misses my point. In noting that you were not Indian, you also said you had no Indian "blood". That, exactly that, no more and no less that that, is what I was referring to.
and you missed my point-
we are all one.
fuck genetics and where you were born determining what you can eat and dance to-
fuck that-
it's so "stupid Americano's" to even worry about appropriation.
In such a racist culture we ought to be glad for the opposite extreme- it's one STEP closer to less prejudice in the world.
Please Samhita, do not diss people who appreciate what they weren't born into.
I understand being a little annoyed when they go so far, but, have some compassion and patience as they evolve in their personal appreciation.
Well, the thing is there are many, many commenters asking the SAME QUESTION.
It seems to me that first two comments by Jrant and Deafbrowntrash more or less ask and answer the question posed by the majority of white commenters here.
By repeating the same question other commenters have asked and answered shows that you either a) didn't read through all the comments before asking your question (kind of annoying) or b) you are just looking for somebody to validate you and assure you that you aren't racist or appropriating or whatever.
imo
Um, this was supposed to be in response to NellieBlyArmy (in the reply to SociologicalMe).
Also I'm white,btw. It's just that the echo-chamber upthread was a bit much, I think...
wow
Interracial prejudice affecting "whites"
awesome.
I'm amazed at how much has come from the cultural construction of race in our Culture here in the States.
I wonder what Gwendolyn Brooks would think of your comment. hmmmm. it's fascinating to me.
I don't have a question to ask.
I do want to share this statement with you as a way to address your prejudice.
I am not ever accused of appropriation because I can pass for anything that isn't considered "White" or "Asian" (as in Chinese, Japanese, Filipino, Malaysian, etc.). People assume I am Moroccan, Egyptian, East Indian, Latino, Southern European, Creole, "Mixed", etc.
Not only can I pass, but, I have experienced appreciation from people who think I look like someone from their culture. If I happen to have studied or experienced any of their culture, that is also something that is generally appreciated.
If I had blond hair and blue eyes, I would be treated differently, for similar behavior.
All that said, I admit to turning my nose up to blond Americans who dress in East Indian garb. I'm not proud of my snobbery.
Let me preface this by saying I'm not sure what I've said that offends you, so I'm going to try to clarify what I said. If I'm not getting it, by all means, set me straight.
All I was trying to say is that the FIRST time somebody asked (paraphrasing) "I like yoga, Indian food, and Indian clothes. Am I being offensive?" it was an appropriate question.
What wasn't appropriate was when a bunch of other people started chiming in TO ASK THE SAME QUESTION. It was as if a bunch little kids started raising their hands frantically, gasping, "Oooooh, oooooooh, Ms. Samhita! What about ME? Am *I* okay too?"
At that point, it was no longer about the person being offended. It was about the potential offenders' personal validation. I'm pretty sure that is privilege at work.
I only mentioned I was white to disclose what lens I'm looking through, not to suggest any of this was affecting me on a personal level. I'm not sure if that is what bothered you. But regardless on my race, I think I'm allowed to call bullshit when I see it.
oh, I wasn't aweare you were the comment police. Peopel have a right to ask questionjs. Not everyone is going to read 165 comments before commenting.
They are ligitimately trying to figure out how not to be assholes and if they even are assholes for appreciating something they weren't born into.
Because of my background-
I call bull shit.
Art is to be appreciated- it's an expression.
If your religion is exclusive, it is not what spirit intended as far as I am concerned
and hey
go ahead and enjoy part of my ancestries gift to this world,
quote out philosophers and do your best to actually have a democratic system.
It's called sharing.
Asked. And answered. IN THE FIRST TWO COMMENTS. Nobody had to read 165 to realize they were contributing to an echo chamber. I do not blame people who just happened to hit send at the same time.
Actually, I don't blame anybody! The original context of my comment was in reply to a thread in which somebody too offense. My post was not meant to be a stand alone.
Yes. People are allowed to ask questions. People are also allowed to be well meaning, insensitive, and tone deaf, too.
Thank you for giving me your permission to enjoy the culture I presume you share with millions of people. That wasn't condescending at all.
I'm done.
Excuse me. Feministing is ABOUT calling out privilege when you see it. That's what I did. Your comment police comment misses the point.
People DO have the right to ask questions. And upthread where I originally intended my post to be (in reply to a POC that HAD been offended) I acknowledged that yes- it's possible twenty people asked the same question at the same time. No big.
But if somebody asked a question much later that was more or less identical to the FIRST COMMENT ON THIS THREAD, I still suggest there is privilege at work. Reading 165 comments is unnecessary to see the question had been ASKED. AND ANSWERED. IN THE FIRST TWO POSTS!
People have the right to ask questions. People also have the right to be insensitive and done deaf (while being well-intentioned). I have a right to point it out. You have the right to disagree.
Let freedom ring!
PS- Thanks for allowing me to enjoy your culture.
Excuse me. Feministing is ABOUT calling out privilege when you see it. That's what I did. Your comment police comment misses the point.
People DO have the right to ask questions. And upthread where I originally intended my post to be (in reply to a POC that HAD been offended) I acknowledged that yes- it's possible twenty people asked the same question at the same time. No big.
But if somebody asked a question much later that was more or less identical to the FIRST COMMENT ON THIS THREAD, I still suggest there is privilege at work. Reading 165 comments isn't necessary to see the question had been ASKED. AND ANSWERED. IN THE FIRST TWO POSTS!
People have the right to ask questions. People also have the right to be insensitive and tone deaf (while being well-intentioned). I have a right to point it out. You have the right to disagree.
Let freedom ring!
PS- Thanks for allowing me to enjoy your culture.
Woooooah. Not sure what happened with the multiple postings. Sorry about that.
Mods- I'm not sure if this is related (or if anybody is looking at this thread anymore, lol), but all Feministing pages are taking forever for me to load- much longer than other sites.
I do not believe our Ancestors want us to be exclusive, just the opposite.
That said, have respect for other cultures. That is what is missing with a lot of U.S. Americans. I can see how it can be annoying. Have some compassion for people in their process on their unique paths, regardless of how ridiculous it seems.
We're all one, with more in common than different.
As for the Motivational Speaker holding a sweat~ quacks have existed since the beginning of time. They're using their own made up remedies and appropriating and messing with, messing up others remedies and medicines. That particular case is just another example of look before you follow someone's suggestions, think for yourself and listen to your body.
Samhita, you've been missed!
I work as a massage therapist part-time right now, and oh. Cultural appropriation is unfortunately not only often part of the appeal for some of my clients, but also perpetuated by part of the industry.
People are brought comfort, peace and relaxation in different ways. As a practitioner I definitely don't begrudge healing to anyone, whatever form it may take. And often it is cultural appreciation.
It's clear, however, that some clients come in with the expectation that they will tour "the wisdom of the ancients" for an hour or two and then return to their everyday life without much thought for the current politics of the culture.
The idea that culture can be bought, packaged, manufactured or even comprehended in all its complexity is...I don't think I can articulate it, but it's frustrating, to say the least.
While I agree that the deaths of the people at the sweat lodge is horrible and that the fact that it's a Native American ritual is especially disgusting since they have already had their land stolen and culture destroyed by the United States, I think it's a great stretch to connect that incident to Americans who practice yoga, meditate, and eat Indian food, etc. The difference is that Indian people brought these things to America for us to enjoy and, importantly, to buy from them. Even Bikram Yoga, which is the closest parallel I can come up with to the "success" sweat lodge, was created and promoted in America by an Indian person. Yogananda wrote "Autobiography of a Yogi" for an American audience specifically to popularize yoga and meditation in America. Iyengar and Sivananda, two very popular schools of yoga, were started by Indians and brought here. The list goes on and on of the Indian people who have come to America to make money on yoga, meditation, and other aspects of their culture. Also, I have never once been to or heard of an Indian restaurant that wasn't owned and operated by an Indian person/people. So, when you are looking for who "stole" your culture, maybe you should look a little closer to home. From my perspective as an American, Indian culture has been sold to us, often at high prices.
Finally, I just want to say that the Americans who are interested in yoga/Indian culture are probably the least likely to discriminate against Indians living in America.
Is this appropriation?
"Target Would Like You to Celebrate Diwali, the Festival of Lights, With Doritos and a Two-Liter Pepsi"
http://www.eatmedaily.com/2009/10/target-would-like-you-to-celebrate-diwali-the-festival-of-lights-with-doritos-and-a-two-liter-pepsi/
And before we all jump on Target, I mean maybe this is OK. Do people have big parties with lots of snacks for Diwali? I don't know. I wouldn't be offended if Target had a deal on snacks for Christmas. In fact I'm sure they do, along with special snack sales for our most American of Holidays, The Super Bowl.
i had both soda and chips at my diwali party. for what it's worth.
Interesting! Thanks and I hope you had fun at your party. Maybe I will serve samosas at my Super Bowl party. Right next to the pigs-in-a-blanket made from cut up hot dogs and biscuit dough.
I daresay Target would like people who are going to celebrate Diwali to find a way to give Target money in the process. That's neither appreciation nor appropriation, it's capitalism.
I could not live without the fascination of other cultures. I never felt satisfied with the Polish/German immigrant culture of my upbringing and only as an adult learned to appreciate my "brown-bread" roots. The fact is, some of us are going to be out there appreciating and even appropriating at will because we live in an open, immigrant society and everybody's taste is individual. My experience with people of other cultures has uniformly been that they are delighted to share their world, and I treasure memories of friends taking me on a sari-shopping expedition, making me try authentic Chinese food, introducing me to Iranian pop music, and conversations about families that take in explanations of the difference between China's Hakka people and the Han majority, while I share what I do and don't like about coming from the European peasant class. I struggle to understand why my take on this is so different, and make no apology if anybody here perceives in me a lack of sensitivity.
Getting back to this thread's inspiration, the sweat lodge incident, I think the people who died were harmed as much or more by their birth culture than by their attempts to appropriate Native American rituals. As Americans we are born into a culture where you can buy an experience, the more "extreme" the more meaningful. We have this sense of invulnerability and an expectation of, for lack of a better term "customer service". In my opinion it was commercialism that led to these peoples' deaths. If they had appropriated more fully from Native American culture and had a better understanding of the purposes and risks, they might be alive today.
This is a very interesting topic, and one that I've often contemplated.
I was traveling through South and Southeast Asia last year, and loved it--the food, the culture, the art, the music, the people, the dress. In Nepal, I very much wanted to buy myself some salwar kurta, but thought it would be too much--as if I were trying to annex Nepali culture for myself. When my wonderful host family bought gave me some beautiful salwar kurta as a parting gift, I was so excited! I feel a little better about wearing this than I would if I had bought it for myself, because it feels more like "sharing" culture now rather than me colonizing that culture as a privileged, white American.
However, my personal experience with the fine line of cultural appropriation/appreciation goes deeper. I am a belly dancer. I perform, and occasionally teach, a dance form based largely (though not exclusively) on Middle Eastern ethnic dance. Belly dance itself is a product of transnational exchange, so it's quite controversial for a number of reasons, and there is currently a raging debate in the belly dance community over its very definition (and whether or not that includes its American stylistic off-shoots). Personally, I draw a distinction between belly dance and Middle Eastern dance--they are similar, and you can perform more "authentic" (ah! that loaded term!) belly dance as well as more Americanized or Westernized (another problematic term) styles. Middle Eastern dance, as I see it, is more culturally-based and more folkloric. The way I see it, it is NOT okay to change it or fuse ME dance with other styles without understanding what you are doing, or else you are simply (mis)appropriating. Because belly dance, though, in my opinion, is itself a product of cultural exchange and amalgamation, it can be more fluidly defined.
Still, there are an awful lot of people out there who haven't the first CLUE about where belly dance comes from, and who perceive and perform it only according to their orientalist fantasies. They go around making zaghareets and calling each other "Habibi," without understanding what those things mean, and wearing costumes that mash Kuchi, Bedouin, Kurdish, and Greek (not to mention Indian, Pacific Island, and Romani!) pieces altogether without the first clue that they are literally picking apart cultural elements and reintegrating them into an awkward and disunited mish-mash--no idea even WHERE their costume pieces come from.
While belly dance can be fluidly defined, it is still ethnically-derived and a dancer, I believe, MUST take the time to understand the history and cultural context of the steps she is performing. I could go my whole life without seeing another so-called belly dancer toss Saudi khaleegy steps on top of a Turkish karshilama rhythm while wearing American Tribal style costuming, all while having NO idea that she's even smashing these disparate stylizations together.
(Here's where I'm really going to piss people off: I apologize in advance if fail to articulate myself well, because I intend only respect here.) That said, I often hear arguments (in this thread, for example) that because people come from a certain ancestry, they automatically know more about the culture or certain cultural elements. I study belly dance intensely. And because I respect it as an art form, and do not want to colonize a cultural art but perform it in a respectful manner that shows my appreciation for it, I have studied the history of belly dance and the culture from where it comes equally intensely. I have studied the distinctions among belly dance styles in different regions, and how they relate to folkloric dance from those areas. And yet, I so often come across Americans of Arab and other ME descent who claim that, because they dance in a certain way at family parties, because they have a familial background that I lack, that they know more about belly dance than I do. Obviously, belly dance derives from social dance, but the way an Arab dances at her cousin's wedding is NOT the same as the belly dance that has evolved into performance. It would be similar to kids who go to hip hop clubs all the time claiming that they are experts in the performance of hip hop dance. Try telling that to a professional hip hop dancer. I probably DO understand more about the history and execution of belly dance than most other people, Arab or not. I do NOT understand the cultural or familial RECEPTION of belly dance better or even as well--of course not. And, naturally, history and cultural understanding cannot be extricated from one another. So, you could say that I understand belly dance better in PART, but not wholly, than those whose ancestry is derived from the same culture as belly dance.
I don't know, I've kind of got off topic here with that last paragraph. But I just mean it to respond to some of what I see on this thread that to me breaks down thusly: "A person from X ethnicity will always understand X aspect of the culture better than anyone else." Of course, no one has explicitly said this, but I feel that it's underneath several posters' arguments. And to me, it's rather offensive--it assumes that every non-EuroAmerican culture is monolithic, and that someone automatically adopts and understands all aspects of that culture only by virtue of her parentage. And to clarify, with the whole understanding-of-belly-dance-issue, too, I'm not saying that I understand Arab culture better than anyone, or even well. I'm discussing my understanding of a PERFORMED art form (which like others, demands intense study--I would separate performed art forms from folkloric arts, which are no less valuable, but which are more social. Think social European dance vs. ballet).
Anyway, sorry to get somewhat off topic, and sorry for the LONG post; this is just super interesting to me intellectually and personally.
I had the pleasure of taking a class with Fifi Abdo a few weeks back, and she did a Q and A for us. Mostly white women dancers in the class - she said 'Your teachers have taught you well. The moves are good, but you cannot express.' Common criticism, and I think the issue is that when the dance is not of your culture expression will always be a bit elusive.
Madame Fifi would not however be drawn into criticising fusion dance, which she is non-plussed about. 'The dance has always changed' she said. And nor did she have any criticism for us white chicks 'appropriating' the dance, and seemed a little offended that anyone would ask such a vulgar question.
Anyway, the Egyptian dancers rarely study 'The Dance' in an academic sense. They do The Dance, and the political rhetoric we enter strikes them as a bit mad, I think. Yasmina of Cairo (British expat dancer) once asked Randa Kamel about modern style, and Randa was like 'Modern style? There is one dance. Dance is dance.' But yet people instinctively adapt to the maqam etc.
Anyway, most of the Egyptian dancers have seemingly have no trouble with the term bellydance - Suraya Hilal got short shrift when she tried to tell them all that they must call it Sharqi. When you are getting called a prostitute by your own countryfolk it's not a big deal apparently.
Wow, a class with Mme Fifi! I'm jealous :)
The issue of white (especially American, given the various establish American BD styles) appropriation of belly dance is an interesting one, I think. Obviously, as a serious and white belly dancer I think that it's very possible to perform and even claim the dance as your "own" without having Arab or other ME ancestry. My problem with white appropriation of the dance comes when all of these women prance around in bedleh waving veils around and "dancing their inner goddess" without a single clue about what it is they are performing. (Dancing to feel good and empowered as a woman is one thing; orientalist fantasy and "enlightened primitive"-type projections are another.) I have no problem with cultural mish-mash, either, a la Tribal style (though I do have a problem with the term "Tribal"--nonetheless, I still use it for lack of a better term). I only have a problem with that mish-mash when people don't know, or worse, don't even attempt to find out, what they're performing or what they're wearing or where it all comes from. Then, I think, belly dance becomes misappropriated by those who have the privilege to take only the pieces they want from it, regardless of context.
I also have NO problem with fusion, and fall firmly on the liberal side of the Great Fusion Debate. I find it inappropriate, though, when dancers don't bother to learn about what they're fusing, when a person of a privileged class just mashes things together without giving a second thought to what they're doing. It's like when white pop singers do pop-Latin fusion and start yelling "Arrrrrriba! Ai, ai, ai!" in horribly stereotypical, Speedy Gonzales-type interpretations of Latin music and culture (I'm looking at you, S Club 7). Well done music with Latin influences I love, likewise thoughtful belly dance fusion. I mean, I'm a student of Suhaila's, so I'm pretty down with fusion.
I also don't take issue with the term belly dance at ALL--in fact, I prefer it, because I think it's so freeing. I just distinguish belly dance from ME dance, which I see as more folkloric and ethnically/regionally-oriented.
In sum, for those of you who have stuck with a long and somewhat tangental post:
Privilege means you don't HAVE to ask where something comes from. You can put on your jangly hip scarves and your hand of Fatima, and dance around without bothering to understand (or caring to know) about what you're doing. You can pick and choose what you like from a culture and discard the rest. Privilege is never having to say you're sorry. Of course, it should mean that you have more of a responsibility to understand what you're doing and eating and dancing and wearing, but then the world would be a much nicer place.
Suhaila! Now my turn to be jealous. Let's just agree to
I think I understand where you are coming from with this. For me, when my appropriation warning bell goes, actually it's sometimes the clumsy grasping for 'authenticity' which paradoxically triggers *ding*ding*ding*. Eyeliner Berber face tattoos. I'd rather people did some fantasy makeup than drew on a fake face tattoo just like they saw in a National Geographic picture.
Anyway, did you see this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5BMWL5YcFk
the words 'live in vicarious joy' skipped off a sentence there.
The rampant liberal guilt on this thread is nauseating. When people consider eating curry to be equivalent to declaring yourself an expert on India cause you saw a Bollywood movie, you know there is a massive problem.
I don't know, I would rather see expressions of "liberal guilt" than seeing people not care at all. A response like this is natural in this kind of community forum - like someone said above, the qualities of feminism that draw people in (arguments for equality, empathy and justice)are reflected even in those posts accused of being "ignorant."
Cultural appropriation/appreciation is clearly a sticky issue. As a cultural anthropologist, I have thought about it deeply and have come to my own conclusions - but to shame people for their lack of knowledge or their "liberal guilt" is unnecessary. On more conservative forums people just wouldn't give a sh*t or argue that you are "being too sensitive."
Do people have big parties with lots of snacks for Diwali?
Briefly: Yes. Absolutely. Frito-Lay and Pepsi-Cola are pretty equal-opportunity about peddling what they market as food.
I think I'm understanding this and I just want to be clear, not to repeat the "white person" thing.
I totally agree about white people in America thinking they don't have culture. Mary Waters's book Ethnic Options is so all about that. I'm your typical white mix, with the freedom of choice to align myself with my Amish and my Bulgarian heritage. Mostly because I think Bulgaria is a beautiful country and I like Amish cooking. However, because I'm white, that's merely symbolic. Nobody is going to call me names in the wake of 9/11.
I suppose my struggle in the appreciation versus appropriation is a) how does one define culture and b) how much of culture is essentialized? It seems like if you aren't of a particular ethnicity, you're guilty of appropriation, which troubles me because it reifies a biological/essential basis for race/ethnicity. However, to deny that it's appropriation is to further the blindness of white privilege.
Ah! It's a clusterf* made worse by colorblind ideology and diversity rhetoric.
Teresa Nielsen Hayden at the Making Light blog has a detailed post about this as well. Jim MacDonald, who's an experienced EMT and co-blogger talks about the medical issues, what happened, and why.
Can I just say that I LOVE this post?
I finally know the words to say about something that has been bothering me my whole life. I'm a white American who lived in Japan until I was 10 and then moved to the US. I like Japanese food, samurai movies, video games, and some anime, but I've always been just completely blown away by the sheer number of people who are disproportionately (and to me, seem inappropriately) interested in Japan.
Sprinkling random Japanese phrases into English? Only watching anime, and only playing Japanese video games? Obsessing over cheap Japanese candy that isn't anything special--sure, Pocky tastes OK, but it's not the end-all, be-all, best candy ever?
I've always been made really uncomfortable by this, because in some sense I feel like it's offensive. Does it make sense if I say that I feel it is fetishizing, in a way? It's like they're taking Japan and turning it into some consumerist Eurocentric fun land. I'm 20, so maybe things have drastically changed in the last ten years, but Tokyo is a real place, you know? It's not just kitschy game shows and animation. I've always felt that it's kind of disrespectful, and I think cultural appropriation is the reason why. It feels like people are trying to make themselves Japanese in a way, and they're NOT. Point blank, they're not Japanese, and they shouldn't diminish an entire culture into a bunch of stereotypes.
Not only does your point of view make sense, "consumerist Eurocentric funland" is one of the best descriptions I've ever heard for what these people think Japan is. I've never been there, but anime fans dressed in Gothic Lolita garb think that the San Francisco Japantown is their personal playground. Sometimes I want to go up to them and say "So... you know that this is a community center, right? And that this building you're standing in front of is the Japanese American Historical Society, which currently has an exhibit going about the internment? And that that over there is the Japanese Cultural and Community Center, where they have quilting classes for old ladies? Okay... cool... carry on then..."
Also, yeah, biscuit sticks coated in chocolate would not be worth a second glance to these people if they originated in the U.S. Yikes.
Oh my goodness. I totally get it now. There is this girl here at my school... she only watches anime and Disney movies, only reads manga, she only listens to Japanese music, she loves loves loves pocky, and only wears shirts with anime characters on them. She went with us to Japan, and I would talk with others about how she didn't seem to realize there is more to Japan than Otaku culture.
People, THIS is the type of people Samhita (I assume) is talking about. They see a country, like one thing, decide they will like everything else about that subculture, and figure everyone in that country is like that and will be like "Oh you know so much about us it's impressive!" if they meet them. The act of watching anime and thinking "I like this genre, I'll watch more shows like it" does mean you appropriate culture. The act of watching anime and thinking "man, Japan is awesome, I want to be a part of Japanese culture" is. If I'm wrong, please correct me. I am looking things up to understand it better.
Maybe that girl is just an otaku. There are actual japanese people that are totally clueless nerd otakus. I love the otaku, cute as a button and annoying as hell at the same time. Desu.
Maybe these people Samhita are talking about don't fit too well into the usual oppressor/oppressed vocabulary of feministing because they aren't so much oppressing appropriators as the are just flakes. Everybody knows flaky new age posers and otakus and white hip hoppers, etc. The crime they are most guilty of is "trying too hard."
I like this comment times a million.
I like this comment times a million.
Can I just say that I LOVE this post?
I finally know the words to say about something that has been bothering me my whole life. I'm a white American who lived in Japan until I was 10 and then moved to the US. I like Japanese food, samurai movies, video games, and some anime, but I've always been just completely blown away by the sheer number of people who are disproportionately (and to me, seem inappropriately) interested in Japan.
Sprinkling random Japanese phrases into English? Only watching anime, and only playing Japanese video games? Obsessing over cheap Japanese candy that isn't anything special--sure, Pocky tastes OK, but it's not the end-all, be-all, best candy ever?
I've always been made really uncomfortable by this, because in some sense I feel like it's offensive. Does it make sense if I say that I feel it is fetishizing, in a way? It's like they're taking Japan and turning it into some consumerist Eurocentric fun land. I'm 20, so maybe things have drastically changed in the last ten years, but Tokyo is a real place, you know? It's not just kitschy game shows and animation. I've always felt that it's kind of disrespectful, and I think cultural appropriation is the reason why. It feels like people are trying to make themselves Japanese in a way, and they're NOT. Point blank, they're not Japanese, and they shouldn't diminish an entire culture into a bunch of stereotypes.
This is going to be a LONG comment, but I think it has to be said. (Maybe I should make my own post on the community page.)
Thought exercise: imagine you are online with some other feminists discussing, oh, say, the beauty standard. Say you're really getting somewhere, sharing experiences, gaining all kinds of new insights. Say a male commenter comes in and says "But, I mean, I'm just NATURALLY attracted to that type of women! Why should I change my desires just so that they're politically correct?" Now say that male commenters with the same point of view start flooding the thread, not content with your answers to the first one, all wanting to explain how THEIR situation is different, because they really love their girlfriend who they would dump if she ever gained weight, or they believe in having the freedom of speech to mass-produce images of blonde, thin womanhood which then no one can critique. Congratulations, you now understand how I and the few other people of color on this thread feel.
That said, I understand what most of you are asking and I think they are valid questions. I'm just one person, but here's my take on it:
It's not appropriation if you just eat a food that is not American. (I enjoy Indian food myself, as well as Vietnamese, Thai, and Chinese among others.) It is appropriation if you eat that food while exuding an attitude that says "I am so COOL and CULTURED for eating this food." This might change with the food you are eating. If you're eating duck feet, you might think you are so ADVENTUROUS (I have been guilty of this one). For Indian food, you might think eating it makes you totally SPIRITUAL. It's appropriation if you're trying to gain something from the food, something other than nourishment and tastiness, some elusive personal quality that you don't want to develop for yourself and think you can absorb from another culture's cuisine. I realize that as I am writing this I sound totally ridiculous and yet I believe I am not the only PoC who has observed people trying to do this.
More learning does not necessarily equal less appropriation. This depends on the situation, as it can be annoying to see someone slap a cultural symbol on their body with no understanding of what it means, but as a Japanese American, I am MONUMENTALLY more irritated by some of the people who have studied Japanese history and language and know all about geisha and samurai than I am by the ones who just have an anime keychain (or even a kanji tattoo). This kind of ties into Pamphilia's comment about bellydance above me... these people do know a lot more (at least in terms of facts) about Japanese culture than I do, and I accept and respect that. But when they try to use that knowledge to tell me what my experience as a Japanese American should be? I'm sorry, game over. (And yes, people do this. All the time.) It's easy to learn facts. It's harder to learn unspoken cultural norms, and I think that this is where you begin to get into iffy territory as a white person learning about another culture--certainly none of these idiots bragging about their superior knowledge of Japanese culture have learned shit about enryo or reserve or self-effacement. Other people's experiences as a person of that cultural/ethnic background, on the other hand, are the one thing that you cannot and never will learn, and when people try to teach this back to me, I completely lose my shit.
This is all obviously in direct disagreement with what another commenter of Japanese descent said upthread, which is why I emphasize that they're only my experiences. I don't expect fans of Japanese culture to study Japanese American history, as I understand that people looking for beauty don't necessarily want to hear about how my great-grandparents were exploited on a sugar cane plantation (ha, ha). What I do expect is for them to acknowledge that a painful history (hate crimes, internment camps, perpetual foreigner syndrome TO THIS DAY) exists, and not say "You're so lucky to be Japanese!" I am lucky to be Japanese, but not for the reasons they would list.
In the end what it boils down to is respect. Constant respect, respect for ALL aspects of the culture. I have seen people glorify a culture while brushing off its people, and that is not okay. I have also seen people worship people of a certain ethnicity (well, okay, just the women) while mocking and belittling their culture (and their men), and that is also not okay. Respect does not necessarily accepting everything a culture has to offer wholesale (hellooooo Yasukuni Shrine), but if you critique something, do it respectfully. That's all.
Your "I am so COOL and CULTURED for eating this food." comment resonates so well with me. I have seen that attitude in all of it's smugness, and it is irritating. Of course, it irritates me when they're not using my culture to support their smugness. So I'm sure that it's worse for you.
I'm the ethnically Japanese poster you disagreed with, and actually, it turns out we do agree. I'm just making the general assumption that people who do study and know more about Japanese history and culture than I do AREN'T claiming to know more about the experience of being Japanese. I've seen the "I know what it's like to be Japanese" attitude far more often from people who think you can learn ethnicity by watching undubbed anime, wearing Gothic Lolita clothes and eating pocky than from people who bother to study it. (That said, I have seen that attitude from both.)
I've heard the "you're lucky to be Japanese" crap, too. They'd accuse me of playing the race card if I told them they were lucky to be white.
Part of my resentment for those who don't bother to learn Japanese history before turning Japan into, as another poster put it, a "consumerist Eurocentric funland" is that I feel that the culture that should have been my birthright was stolen - my grandparents, once through the internment camps, forsook their language, religion, and cultural norms to assimilate into America. My mother and her siblings, and consequently myself, were raised "Americanized". And yet white Americans assume that they know what my "Japanese Experience" must be, because obviously it's exactly the same as every other Japanese person's, and every Japanese person is a Buddhist anime-watching repressed reserved effeminate submissive smart fashionista who is just SO lucky to be Japanese.
I can believe it, because people can feel so entitled, but when I read in your (and others' posts) that you are corrected by non-Japanese people as to how you should be Japanese? I mean, I experience people's stupidity for different reasons, but this one takes the cake. I don't even know how I'd react if I were you. Probably with really big eyes, feigning interest in what they were saying, then something like, "Wow, you're SO Japanese! You're more Japanese than me. Way to go!"
Can I just say that I LOVE this post?
I finally know the words to say about something that has been bothering me my whole life. I'm a white American who lived in Japan until I was 10 and then moved to the US. I like Japanese food, samurai movies, video games, and some anime, but I've always been just completely blown away by the sheer number of people who are disproportionately (and to me, seem inappropriately) interested in Japan.
Sprinkling random Japanese phrases into English? Only watching anime, and only playing Japanese video games? Obsessing over cheap Japanese candy that isn't anything special--sure, Pocky tastes OK, but it's not the end-all, be-all, best candy ever?
I've always been made really uncomfortable by this, because in some sense I feel like it's offensive. Does it make sense if I say that I feel it is fetishizing, in a way? It's like they're taking Japan and turning it into some consumerist Eurocentric fun land. I'm 20, so maybe things have drastically changed in the last ten years, but Tokyo is a real place, you know? It's not just kitschy game shows and animation. I've always felt that it's kind of disrespectful, and I think cultural appropriation is the reason why. It feels like people are trying to make themselves Japanese in a way, and they're NOT. Point blank, they're not Japanese, and they shouldn't diminish an entire culture into a bunch of stereotypes.
Can I just say that I LOVE this post?
I finally know the words to say about something that has been bothering me my whole life. I'm a white American who lived in Japan until I was 10 and then moved to the US. I like Japanese food, samurai movies, video games, and some anime, but I've always been just completely blown away by the sheer number of people who are disproportionately (and to me, seem inappropriately) interested in Japan.
Sprinkling random Japanese phrases into English? Only watching anime, and only playing Japanese video games? Obsessing over cheap Japanese candy that isn't anything special--sure, Pocky tastes OK, but it's not the end-all, be-all, best candy ever?
I've always been made really uncomfortable by this, because in some sense I feel like it's offensive. Does it make sense if I say that I feel it is fetishizing, in a way? It's like they're taking Japan and turning it into some consumerist Eurocentric fun land. I'm 20, so maybe things have drastically changed in the last ten years, but Tokyo is a real place, you know? It's not just kitschy game shows and animation. I've always felt that it's kind of disrespectful, and I think cultural appropriation is the reason why. It feels like people are trying to make themselves Japanese in a way, and they're NOT. Point blank, they're not Japanese, and they shouldn't diminish an entire culture into a bunch of stereotypes.
This is a great post, and as an Indian-American woman, it is something that I also experience in a regular basis.
I take no issue