But that doesn't mean the rate of rapes in this country still isn't really high.
USA Today reports that FBI data shows that the rate of reported rapes in the U.S. has gone down considerably.
The FBI estimates 89,000 women reported being raped in 2008 -- 29 women for every 100,000 people. That's down from a high of 109,062 reported rapes in 1992 -- 43 women for every 100,000 people. Data for 2009 are not yet available."We have seen reform in how police work with victims, gather evidence and investigate rape; we've seen increased awareness of the crime, and we've seen better prosecution," says Michael Males, senior researcher for the Center on Juvenile & Criminal Justice in San Francisco. "Hospitals now have rape kits that they didn't have 40 years ago" which make it easier to collect an attacker's DNA and other evidence of a crime.
Okay, I'm glad - really glad - that the number of reported rapes have declined. (Thanks, feminism and VAWA!) But there are still over tens of thousands of women a year who are reporting being raped - imagine how many more are not reporting their assaults.
And even if we have made inroads in terms of police and rape kits (though even that is debatable), the culture that condones and excuses rape is far from gone.
Males says in the USA Today piece that today, "you don't see the nightmarish trials of the 1960s where a woman's reputation would be brought into question and people would conclude she deserved it." But the thing is...we really do see that kind of victim-blaming. All the time.
So while, we should thank feminism for the small victories surrounding sexual assault legislation and policy - let's continue to fight the rape culture that makes this country such an unsafe place for women.
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Just a correction. The quoted article states that in 2008 89000 reported rapes, which is to far away from 100 000 that you later state in the article.
Since there are studies that estimate the percentage of unreported rapes we don't have to imagine how many rapes there are. We can estimate it. Using the 60% figure from (http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates) an estimate for the total number of rapes is 222500 in 2008, and 272500 in 1992 when the reported rapes were at their peak. So as long as the 60% or unreported rapes (this figure was from the mid 90s...are there any more recent figures out there?) then the actual number of rapes is on a decline as well.
My bad, I'm ridic tired right now. Changing to reflect correct #s.
You call these numbers a sign that our culture still condones and excuses rape ?
lets see: 29 out of 100K, thats 0.029%. Statistically thats not a trend, no matter how you want to look at it. And even IF we where to take some insane number like "only 1 in 10 rape cases get reported" thats still 0.3%. Even that is not a trend, or sign of a "rape culture".
Next: going from 0.043% to 0.029%, now that IS a strong statistical trend: down more that 25%. This is a number which shows that security for women has drastically improved from 1992 to 2008.
Theses numbers are great, this IS something to be very glad about. Not only do fewer women report rape (and that in combination with all the effords to remove barriers for them to do so). But the chance for any given woman to be raped is very small indeed.
And yet here you are, trying to portray our culture (and I presume the male part of it) as hungry for rape, as if every woman out there should be scared to death because there's a rapist behind every corner.
What disgusting dishonesty and fear mongering.
Numbers aside, isn't the recent Polasnki fiasco a strong indicator of how our culture still condones and excuses rape (not to drag him into this).
Unfortunately we still do live in a culture that allows and forgives rapes and the individuals who commit these crimes, and in some instances, our culture encourages sexual violence against women. Period. The number of rapes may be going down, but that doesn't mean we've stepped above condoning it.
And I don't think the point of the article was to "fear monger or frighten women," I think it was to point out that yes, we've come along way, but there are still many steps to take.
I just google Polanski, and every single article on the first few pages says he got arrested and calls him what he is: a rapist.
Apperantly France and Poland are trying to give him amnesty, but frankly those countries are comming out as douchebags in those articles. I'm also yet to see one comment on an article that sides with this guy.
I would hardly call that evidence that his rape is being excused or condoned.
I just google Polanski, and every single article on the first few pages says he got arrested and calls him what he is: a rapist.
Apperantly France and Poland are trying to give him amnesty, but frankly those countries are comming out as douchebags in those articles. I'm also yet to see one comment on an article that sides with this guy.
I would hardly call that evidence that his rape is being excused or condoned.
Really? Check out the L.A. Times, which refers to it as a child-sex case, or did you miss Whoopi Goldberg's "its not rape-rape," crap on The View?
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-polanski3-2009oct03,0,6765170.story?track=rss (only at the end does the author state what he was accused of)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2009/oct/04/roman-polanski-sex-case-backlash
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090927/ap_on_en_mo/eu_switzerland_polanski (Not that the author states he was ACCUSED of rape, even though the only reason he got the plea was to spare the victim a trial)
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/roman-polanski/story?id=8705958
Also, did you not see the petition of at least one hundred individuals calling for his release?
It's only now, that the absurdity of his supporters has been highlighted, that the rape apologists have retreated.
You're barking up the wrong tree, and this post isn't about Roman Polanski. The man has gotten way too much attention for his actions as is, so that's the last thing I am going to say about him.
But I am definitely willing to engage in other ways rape culture is prominent in our culture.
Excuse me....engage in a conversation about other ways rape culture is prominent in our society/culture, not actually engage in it.
well, what are those other ways ? because all this "pro rape" that you claim goes on in our culture has the net result of lowering both the total number of rapes and the number of reported rapes.
Its increadible how some can go from such positive news to "SEE, we're STILL being raped all over the place and nobody is doing anything about it"
its absurd
No, I call the fact that our society still blames the victim and encourages a model of sexuality that contributes to rape a sign that we live in a rape culture. And that's not an opinion - it's a fact. I'm not talking about numbers, I'm talking about a media that refuses to call Polanski a rapist, a college culture that doesn't believe young women who were raped if they were drinking/out/wearing a skirt, etc. I'm talking about the absolutely unsafe world that women live in.
But yeah, how dishonest and disgusting of me to think we should fight for a culture that respects women. Really, I should be ashamed.
Polanski, see above.
"absolutly unsafe world" Unless you're talking about the middle east or something, I firmly stand by my position that you are very much overblowing the risks women have in our society.
The way you tried to make these numbers, which only show positive trends and low risks for women, speak for your case is indeed very dishonest. And I hardly think you can claim to fight for respect when you try to lie with numbers like that.
Well since I'm such a liar and over-reactor, I'm sure you won't mind spending your time on another site.
But I'm enjoying this discussion.
I still wonder how you came to the conclusion that the rape culture is "far from gone" when the numbers you quote are so low, and going lower at a steady pace.
25% lower in 16 years, together with the lower barriers and encouragement women have rightfully gained to come forward about rape.
How can you not see this as a great thing and an improvement of our society.
How can you try to claim that things are not better, with numbers that only show improvement.
I ask you, am I really wrong in thinking you're trying to lie about this, and that you want to make things look a lot worse than they are ?
"I ask you, am I really wrong in thinking you're trying to lie about this, and that you want to make things look a lot worse than they are ?"
YES. You are wrong. Just because numbers of reported rapes are down doesn't mean everything is fucking peachy now. For fucks sake! RAPE CULTURE EXISTS! READ LIKE EVERY OTHER FUCKING COMMUNITY POST ON THIS BLOG!!!
But go ahead calling the head editor of Feministing a liar. Good one.
Oekedulleke, the culture of accepting rape is definitely around us. It's present at every turn. The argument that a woman was "asking for it" which is heard too often on college campuses and the like is enough evidence.
But, for more concrete evidence: I currently volunteer for the YWCA as a rape victim advocate and have seen it first-hand. I attend the sexual assault nursing exam where the rape kit evidence is collected and the victim has to practically relive the entire experience. I provide support to the victim, inform her of resources in the community for support, offer to speak to law enforcement on her behalf, and much more. In my position, I've witnessed law enforcement questioning the victim's alcohol intake all the while clearly implying it was her fault. I've held the hands of victims who cry thinking that it was their fault because they had had a drink or two that night or they wore something suggestive. Until I see otherwise, I will know that our society isn't convinced rape, no matter the circumstances, is wrong, that consent from a person under the influence isn't valid, AND that NO MEANS NO!
What irks me the most is the following: the majority of rape victims I have worked with came in having no specific information of the perpetrator (they might know his first name but likely not more than that). The victims consent to the rape kit with the hope that the perpetrator will be caught. We ask for all the information possible to help ID the person. However, law enforcement in our district is so backed up with rape cases that they're more than 6 months behind. They immediately throw out a case where the exact identity (first and last name and usually address) aren't known. Instead of attempting to run the DNA collected through the system, they just throw it out without looking through it or testing any of it. How wrong is that? To me, the message sent here is that rape is a back burner issue and only important to investigate if it won't be much work.
So, there you go: we live in a society that accepts rape and that is just plain wrong.
"Rape culture" does not mean that everyone is raped. It means that the culture finds ways to excuse or downplay the existence and the impact of sexual assault.
For example, you pooh-pooh annual rape reporting statistics as "not a trend," but you forget that this is an annual rate. Each of those people reporting rape is someone who will have to deal with sexual assault on some level for the rest of their lives.
And far, far (FAAAAAR) less than one in ten cases get reported to police. Research puts the number of women sexually assaulted in their lifetimes somewhere between one in three and one in eight.
The trend is very interesting, though. It's following all of the other major crimes in plummeting. I really hope that it IS that people are experiencing less sexual assault and not just reporting sexual assault less.
"And far, far (FAAAAAR) less than one in ten cases get reported to police. Research puts the number of women sexually assaulted in their lifetimes somewhere between one in three and one in eight."
Please cite your source. The FBI (from 1992-2000 that I cited above) puts it at approximately 4 of every 10 rapes gets reported. So if you have other numbers, you need a source so that we can try and determine which (if either) should be believed. Without a source, I can only assume you are (intentionally or unintentionally) propagating wrong information. Its the google age, it only takes a minute or two to find your info.
Golding, Siegel, Sorenson, Burnam, & Stein, 1989 puts the figure at 10.5%, but this was of women who self-identified as rape victims. Many women do not self-identify as having been raped and do not go to police. This was a completely random survey.
I've taken part in other studies where, again, women are asked to self-identify as victims of sexual assault before taking the survey, and those studies have been less than 20%.
The "dark figure of crime" or crimes that go unreported are at best, a guess to most researchers who study crime. So what I commented on was a bit of experiential knowledge combined with research that I've done (I study sexual assault).
So the two studies you talk about are about 10% and less than 20%. I would agree that it is hard to get good numbers, and that you are probably right that some don't identify as rape victims, even in anonymous surveys, however with absolutely no way to estimate this number your "far far (FARRR) less than 1 in 10" is at best opinion, and at worst dishonesty. All we know is an upper bound based on the surveys. The extent that reality is below we really have no indication of. And making outlandish claims, like I highlighted does nothing to get people to take it more seriously.
I'd call it more of an educated guess than an opinion. I'll retract two of the "far"s (I was misremembering it as 8% for some reason).
And as far as me making outlandish claims, as I said before, rape research is what I do all day every day. Based on my knowledge, my claims are not outlandish.
In a text book from not too long ago (mid 1980's, if I remember correctly), I read the statistic that 80% of rapes are reported, according to the FBI. While the FBI is getting better at chipping away at realizing the number or unreported crimes, I don't think they're quite there yet when it comes to measuring unreported rapes.
But I tend to look at the lifetime statistics over the annual statistics, so I do apologize for misremembering the original statistic. But I do stand by that I believe, based on my research, that less than 10% of women report sexual assault to police.
We were talking about rape, but you said you stand by that less than 10% of sexual assaults are reported. Did you mean rape? Or are we now discussing related, but different terms? And you can believe all that you want, however the own numbers you give can not predict, or estimate by how much lower the real rates are, so its a meaningless belief.
But, since you do rape research, I am very curious (but don't have the time to read through a lot of papers from a different field) of the methodology typically used to get these numbers? Is it just the anonymous surveys? Or something that I don't know about? Are the studies repeated over different sample demographics to be sure there isn't a bias that way?
The Golding research above was a completely randomized study that might have been confidential, but it wasn't anonymous. It specifically looked at violence against women, specifically sexual assault.
Most statistics that attempt to understand unreported rape (or other crimes) I believe comes from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS which is not compiled by the FBI). It's also randomized, but far from perfect. In the NCVS, the interviewer asks if anyone in the household has experienced sexual assault (it uses behavior-specific language, which is good) and if they did, they then ask if they reported that sexual assault to the police.
In the studies I've been involved in, we just ask women if they've reported to police, which I think is pretty usual for studies on sexual assault which utilize surveys.
There are always going to be issues of non response and issues of wanting to look good to the interviewer when it comes to any research, so one has to take those factors into account, too.
Also, you have to consider different demographics within the population. African American women, for example, are much less likely to report sexual assault to police than are Caucasian women. Race and SES are often interconnected and SES also affects whether or not people have the time or ability to take part in surveys.
While I do see that official, governmental statistics likes to report that around 40% of women report rape, everything else I've seen, experience, and read puts those statistics as way too optimistic.
I have no problem believing that 1 in 4 women in a lifetime or even 1 in 3, experiences sexual assault. Look at the legal or government definitions. ElleStar has pointed out how in her surveys, women must SELF identify as victims, because quite frankly, survey indicates many women like my wife, have experienced completed rape and sexual assault, without being aware of it, or that it is a crime.
This is why surveys, like the National Crime Victimization Survey, ask about behavior. If you straight out ask women or men, "Have you been raped?" or "Have you been sexually assaulted?" (Yes, I have, by a male stranger who had me confined in his car, so I'd appreciate not being told I don't know what it's like, or how being a victim is, when I talk about statistics or having standards) results will depend upon respondents' perception of what "real" rape is (see posters on Feministing asking "was I raped?" and the variety of responses) and their perception of what could happen if someone learns their responses. My wife is Japanese. Her culture and system of laws has a strict and limited definition of rape. PIV means by definition, a cis male cannot be raped in Japan. Sodomy is not rape. A cis woman cannot rape another. A wife by precedent law, cannot be raped. American law enforcement, being what it is, knows different. Some federal agency definitions, from the Bureau of Justice report "Intimate Partner Violence in the U.S."
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/intimate/definitions.htm
"Rape: forced sexual intercourse, including both psychological coercion and physical force. Forced sexual intercourse means vaginal, anal, or oral penetration by the offender(s). This category includes incidents where the penetration is from a foreign object such as a bottle. This definition includes attempted rapes, male and female victims, and heterosexual and homosexual rape."
"Sexual assault: includes a wide range of victimizations, distinct from rape or attempted rape. These crimes include completed or attempted attacks generally involving unwanted sexual contact between the victim and offender. Sexual assaults may or may not involve force and include such things as grabbing or fondling. Sexual assault also includes verbal threats."
Bureau of Justice adds, in "Survey Methodology for Criminal Victimization in the United States, 2004" that in its classification of "Rape,"
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus/cvus04mt.pdf
"Includes attempted rapes, male as well as female victims and both heterosexual and homosexual rape. Attempted rape includes verbal threats of rape."
Also, BoJ surveys like Intimate Partner Violence or NCVS are for people 12 years of age and older. That excludes at least 15% of victims. "Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women," a 1998 Department of Justice report revealed (page 2) 22% of respondents reported being raped while under 12 years old.
"In addition, the screening questions used by the two surveys differ substantially. The NVAW Survey uses five questions to screen respondents for rape victimization, while the NCVS uses only two questions.8 Although empirical data on this issue are limited, some researchers assume that increasing the number of screening questions increases disclosure rates.9 Furthermore, the NVAW Survey screening questions are more explicit than those used by the NCVS.10"
PDF files available at relevant agency websites.
My biggest concern is that the FBI only included WOMEN in this statistic. Child rape is just as serious of a crime. Why do we separate girl rape from woman rape? All rape should be listed on the same chart. When the stats that illustrates that 1 in 3 girls will be raped in their life time, that includes youth. I have know far more than 1 in 3 to be raped as a child. What's worse is that often we minimize child rape as "molestation" or "sexual abuse". Its so much easier to pretend that just being molested isn't always rape. And often oral sex isn't considered oral rape, its just considered a leud act. As for whether or not we live in a rape culture. Why don't we just look at our congressional representatives? 3 out 5 Republican senators voted AGAINST a bill that would make it illegal for companies working overseas to contractually a woman's right to prosecute criminal charges against her rapist(s). If that isn't acceptance of a rape culture, I don't know what is. Thankfully, that acceptance is limited to a certain population, but just because Dems have control of congress right now doesn't mean that Republican supporters outside of congress don't feel the same way these 3 out of 5 pro-rape Senators feel. Which basically is, "who cares if a woman can prosecute her rapist?"
Funny you should mention... today is the anniversary of my rape. Yes, I reported it, and no, the police and DA did fuck all to bring the man to justice. They took it so seriously that they didn't question him for nearly *3 months* after I filed my report.
I attended a support group for awhile afterward, and every single woman there had the exact same experience - she reported the rape immediately only to see it blown off by the authorities. I also learned of many friends and acquaintances who'd been raped and sexually assualted. All those rapes, and not one rapist even charged, let alone convicted.
So, I'm fighting the urge to get hostile because I prefer to think that you're merely uninformed rather than an actual rape apologist... But yes, this IS a problem, there IS a rape culture in the U.S. (by which I mean the concept that women are public property and may be exploited by anyone around), and if you think that "89,000 rapes were reported" is remotely the same as "89,000 rapes happened," then I just don't know what to do with you.
Cosigned. I'm someone who had a similar experience.
I went to the hospital after I was raped. Among the first background questions from the health care provider were, "How much had you been drinking?" and "Why were you out so late?"
I filed a police report after my rape. The questioning was lackadaisical best and the officers in charge of the case outright told me that this looked like it could be consensual sex -- despite my assertions that I physically fought back, my myriad of bruises, my torn clothes, and my dislocated knee.
Later, when the story got out among my then-friends, no fewer than five of them confronted me and demanded to know why I was "doing this to him."
It's funny, you know (and strange-funny, not ha-ha funny), but while I do have PTSD, my remaining triggers are less from the rape itself and more from the rape culture.
Wow, me too! I never thought about it, but you're right. When something like the Polanski arrest puts a rape case in the news, I already know that what's going to bring all the bad shit up again is the reaction from other people excusing or downplaying the rape.
If the 1 in 8 statistic is true (that's the last one I heard) fewer than 1 in 400 rapes are reported (0.00029 * 431 = 0.125). Obviously any number is too high, but does this seem accurate?
The one in eight is a lifetime statistic while the .029% is an annual statistic.
Women's life expectancy in the US is around 80. If there's an annual rape rate of 0.029%, therefore, women would have a 2.32% chance of getting raped in their lifetime, or 1 in 43 women.
Of course not all rapes are reported, but the rate of unreported rapes would have to be staggeringly high, around 83% of all rapes, in order for the 1 in 8 stat to be believable.
Funny. The one in eight statistic is probably one of the most conservative estimates I've seen in recent research. Most researchers who study rape (of which I am one), are more comfortable at putting the estimate nearer to one in four.
And like I wrote above, 83% of women not reporting rapes is no surprise to me (actually, that's the exact statistic in my current data set of women who have to self-identify as a rape victim before they can take the survey), and I believe that the actual estimate is less than one in ten women report sexual assault to police.
If it's the case that 83% of rapes go unreported, I'd be interested to see the rates for other similarly heinous violent crimes. I know that I was attacked by a gang a few years ago and beaten up and never reported it, even though I suffered PTSD for a long time after.
On the other hand, maybe the 1 in 8 refers to a wider definition of rape to include forms of sexual assault, or else refers to more contentious forms such as sex when drunk, which while considered by some feminist groups to be rape wouldn't stand up in a court as such.
BTW I'd just like to clarify that I'm not necessarily questioning whether such acts should or should not be classified as rape, just noting that it may be at the root of any disparity in stats between official sources and academic studies.
Like I said, the one in eight is a very conservative estimate for lifetime sexual assault.
When studies include sex when drunk as sexual assault, the number is more like one in three.
Reporting rates for certain crimes of violence, 2006. Numbers are percentages. People are most likely to report if they are assaulted and injured.
Department of Justice Crime and Victims Statistics
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict.htm
Department of Justice National Crime Victimization Survey
Criminal Victimization in the United States, 2006 Statistical Tables
Percent of victimizations reported to the police, by type of crime, victim-offender relationship, and gender of victims
Table 93 (p. 17)
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus0605.pdf
Crimes of violence 48.8 %
Completed violence 62.6
Attempted/threatened violence 42.0
Rape/Sexual assault/a 43.4
Robbery 56.8
Completed/property taken 59.8
With injury 60.8
Without injury 58.9
Attempted to take property 50.8
With injury 66.3
Without injury 47.2
Assault 48.0
Aggravated 59.6
With injury 76.0
Threatened with weapon 50.9
Simple 43.9
With minor injury 59.9
Attempted threat without weapon 38.8
Also see Table 94: Percent of victimizations reported to the police, by type of crime, victim-offender relationship, and race of victims (p. 19)
The most likely crime overall to be reported in the survey is theft of a car, 89%
Attempt to take property, with injury, involving non strangers; has a report rate of 100%, even higher than in actual theft of property, or by a stranger. Odd.
Victims over 65 were most likely to report being victimized. Victims 12-19 were least likely.
"Women's life expectancy in the US is around 80. If there's an annual rape rate of 0.029%, therefore, women would have a 2.32% chance of getting raped in their lifetime, or 1 in 43 women."
You're basing that rate on reported crimes, in one year, during an overall downward trend. All those limitations make estimation problematic.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/rape.htm
Note: "Rape - Forced sexual intercourse including both psychological coercion as well as physical force. Forced sexual intercourse means penetration by the offender(s). Includes attempted rapes, male as well as female victims, and both heterosexual and homosexual rape. Attempted rape includes verbal threats of rape."
That's the DoJ definition of rape for victim's self report of crime in their survey.
Yep but I'm trying to work out a ballpark figure, because 1 in 3 seems ridiculously high for a violent crime.
The rate of rape must also vary over a lifetime. Young women are most often the victims.
"I'm trying to work out a ballpark figure, because 1 in 3 seems ridiculously high for a violent crime."
Why don't you try reading yourself. I've spent hours online reading this week just to respond to comments about sexual violence and statistics, as well as reading I normally do on my own. See my 10/8/09 reply to steveo at 1:36 a.m. Look at government definitions for rape and sexual assault. During the lifetime of a woman, don't you believe that can happen to 1 in 4 or more women? You don't need a ballpark figure, read reports based on responses of women themselves. Yes, there is a range of published figures, and I believe it is human nature to select those closest to what one agrees with, even in academia.
The only people who would be against learning more on their own about something they profess to care about, you and sexual assault for example, are people who don't want to hear something they won't like.
I respect what you're doing, but frankly I [i]don't[/i] have the time or inclination to read up on something like this. Why? Because I'm not making a positive statement either way; I'm just critiquing others' claims.
On the other hand I would be very interested if you did a community post on this, given that you're apparently willing to trawl through lots of data. Perhaps you could present your findings to the Feministing community.
That is not accurate.
If the 1-in-8 number is accurate (and I THINK that is for any kind of sexual assault), I BELIEVE that is a lifetime number.
So, for example, regarding the recent Polanski issue, his victim counts toward the 1-in-8 (or whatever the number is), but does not count in any of the annual numbers (except 1977, or whenever it occurred).
Or, is that what you were trying to say? That 1 in 400 over a lifetime are reported. That may be an accurate way of looking at it. However, assuming the 1-in-8 is accurate, I am not sure that it is accurately calculated. For example, if a woman is raped 3 times in her life, does she count as "1" for the 1-in-8 number or not; or are the "3" times spread over the average?
I do not know the answer, but, if she reports all 3, that "3" should be spread over the average of rapes reported (based upon how the statistic is framed).
An added problem, I expect, is that these are simply "reports." The numbers probably do not take into account false reports (and the unreported number are only subject to estimate, as mentioned above). So, it is only a hint of the actual number of rapes.
Anyway, that goes WAY beyond your question, but I hope it was helpful.
-Jut
How are we having this conversation on a feminist website? You wants stats? Go to RAINN's website. Fuck this makes me sick. I guess I should just stop looking at comments on Feministing today because all they do is make me want to puke. Debating if rape culture exists? Debating if where rape stats come from? Calling it a rare occurrence? I WANT TO SCREAM.
SERIOUSLY
Well, clearly because only *89,000* women were raped last year, the rape culture is GONE! It's less than in 1992, so that means women never get accused of lying about rape, causing themselves to get raped because they were drunk/dressed like a whore/out late/have a vagina, or told that they CAN'T BE raped because they're drunk, not a virgin, married to the guy or a prostitute (I must have imagined that trial that JUST HAPPENED where the entire defense was that a prostitute is not a real woman like your mom or your sister, and therefore violence done to her is not the same). By all means, let's stop talking about rape now because it makes some men feel bad.
I can't believe how invested some people are in insisting that rape is not a big deal. Yep, no rape culture here.
well, considering the total female population in the US: 89,000 in one year does indeed qualify as *only* 89,000 as does 0.029%.
If you want to point to specific cases like Polanski or whatever, fine. I do agree that such cases are wrong and deplorable.
But these cases, and certainly these numbers, are not evidence that rape is condoned in our society, or that a rape culture is active.
The numbers would suggest the contrary to be the case.
It takes some major nerve to come to a website where many of the members have been raped, where the majority of the members are at increased risk for sexual assault simply because of their gender or gender representation, and where members have a heightened sense of the dangers of misogyny, violence against women, and sexual assault because we live it EVERY GODDAMNED DAY, and tell us we're just blowing it all out of proportion.
Here's an idea - instead of claiming that rape culture doesn't exist, why don't you listen to the people that are saying it does because they've actually fucking experienced it?
What's next? You going to go to a message board for victims of domestic violence and ask them all why they didn't "just leave"? Jesus.
Dude, the MRA website is down the hall. Go hang out there.
If you seriously think the numbers are made up, or are question the integrity of these statistics, guess what? YOU are the primary example that rape culture still exists.
llevinso,
I went to RAINN's site. Three times. Their stats are outdated. The 60% is an average for the period from 1992-2000. Even if it WAS accurate then (and I offer no opinion on that), I expect that it is not anymore.
What is your point?
My point is that you should look critically whenever someone tries to throw numbers at you.
Jessica's numbers are fine, as far as they go; it is when you start to interpret them that you have to be careful.
-Jut
"What is my point?" MY POINT IS THAT YOU ALL ARE MAKING ME SICK. Rainn is just an idea I pulled off the top of my head but a quick search of Google shows that most other sites have the same info. But hey, I must be "overreacting" and a "liar" like was claimed about Jessica in one of the above posts.
This is a FEMINIST SPACE. This topic should not even be up for debate.
I cannot read comments here anymore. It isn't a safe space for anyone it seems.
I'll admit that the 'lying' part may be a bit harsh. But Jessica herself links to stats that show rape reports are both rather low in numbers considering total US population, and more importantly: constantly going down.
And She follows that up by stating that the culture of rape is still going strong and is all around us.
And that is, at best: absurd. And at worse: a willfull deception on her part.
See ya!
I hope you don't leave! Whenever we post rape stats, the MRAs and rape apologists come out; it's disgusting.
We're expected to relive a rape all over again for the police and the courts; we're expected to continually patiently coddle people who haven't done any of their own reading on rape or feminism and act like we're somehow totally paralyzed or unable to put forward any solutions simply because we can't SPECIFICALLY SAY, IN EXACT NUMBERS, how many rapes go unreported.
I don't need to know any of this to know that my fucking best friend was raped in her house by a fucking slovenly football player during high school and the entire school labeled her a slut for it. And to know that she didn't have the time, money, or heart to report or press charges or even tell her own GRANDMA for shame.
People claiming there's no "rape culture" probably don't even know what the hell it means and have never read about it in their lives.
My point, then, is that you should probably study sexual assault statistics and know what the hell you're talking about, instead of talking out of your ass.
If you don't get it, you're either an idiot, or worst, a rapist. Which is it?
How can you get any handle on how severe the problem is without stats? And how can you make any claim or suggestion based on the numbers if you don't know if they are reliable. So instead of assuming something is true and going from there, we first need to be sure that its true. And this type of analysis is almost always lacking in any discussion. Anecdotes are not the same as data.
Just because this is a feminist space doesn't mean there can be no disagreement. And it doesn't mean that claims shouldn't have to be supported.
Dude, really, the EXACT NUMBERS OF UNREPORTED RAPES aren't even the fucking point. When every woman you know has at least two or three friends who have been sexually assaulted or raped in their life, whether or reported or not, when I can't go to the fucking bar without having at least one guy overtly grab my ass without my permission, there's a fucking PROBLEM with MEN FEELING LIKE THEY'RE ENTITLED TO WOMEN'S BODIES. THIS IS RAPE CULTURE.
Get a grip. Perhaps go talk to some of the many female friends I'm sure you have.
Allegra,
I wasn't attempting to comment one way or another about rape culture. I don't see a point in re-enforcing a point of view that I don't disagree with. However, I was unsure of methods that come up with numbers of reported vs unreported rapes, so I asked some questions. AND the unreported numbers of rape are actually a fantastic measure of rape culture (at least to first order), so how these numbers are obtained, and making sure these methods are sound is a good thing to do. If the numbers of unreported rapes is the 60% that I found, or the 90%+ that Ellestar was suggesting makes a big statement about the strength of rape culture. So, although I wasn't initially commenting on rape culture, I now see a good connection.
Also, ad hominem attacks to me are unneccessary. The number of female friends I have is really irrelevant to my argument, and assuming I have few doesn't further your argument.
Lastly, I think its terrible that you, or other women can't go out to bars without being harrassed. The fact that my mind is very quantitative and trained to question data and data acqusition doesn't mean I don't think rape culture is a problem.
I don't like math, Steveo. Hated calculus. But I like statistics, and science in general. Appreciation for the scientific method and having standards has its place.
Please refer to my response to you in the comment above, but federal agency websites like FBI, DoJ and BoJ keep pdf files of their report findings and methodology.
Do you really think it's appropriate to demand that a feminist discussion about rape culture should revolve around your personal needs, even at the expense of the discussion and even rape victims?
BTW she said nothing about how many female friends you have.
I'd be hard pressed to find 2 or 3 girls I know that haven't been raped. Now, I could point you to plenty that weren't raped as adults, I am one of them, so my rapes aren't included in these FBI stats. But I was raped more times than I can count from the age of 3 to age 11 and didn't even know it because until I was 11 I didn't know what sex was. When I finally had the "sex talk" with my mother, I remember telling her, "I think I've already had sex." And it was all downhill from there. After 3 years of discovery and testimony and the rapist outright ADMITTING, and the police finding video and photo evidence, and the fact that my child rapist was on probation for child rape at the time he raped me, he was given: (drum-roll) more probation! For 8 years of repeatedly raping me, he was given more probation. Even when I get the sexual predator list in the mail, they never list rapist under each man's picture, it always says things like, "sexual assault of a minor, no injury" or "forcible sodomy without violence." I mean what do those conviction titles even mean? When did it become possible to rape a minor without hurting her? And in the many pages of this pamphlet, never does it say, anything with injury. This is culture condoning.
I just want to say thank you to Jessica (and the other commenters that actually get it) for writing about this story and saying what needs to be said. This comment log is definitely frustrating, but I think it just further highlights how much work we need to do on this issue, so thanks for sticking it out.
I find a chart like this which tracks *reported* incidences of a massively unreported crime completely useless.
As others have probably already said, this could simply mean women are becoming even MORE reluctant to report, which I wouldn't doubt at all. With pretty much our whole society acting like "rape is not a big enough deal to put a poor wittle man through a BIG BAD TRIAL," and with some women (and I can't blame them) not really wanting to go through the hassle of a trial either, I don't know how this is ever going to change.
Thank you. Reported rapes =/= rapes. That fewer women are reporting rape is not necessarily a good thing. I imagine it's because most women know there's practically no point in doing so. We observe how rape victims are treated by law enforcement, the media, and the so-called justice system. Reporting a rape often just prolongs the torture and rarely results in a conviction or jail time. These numbers are pretty meaningless but I'm sure they will be used by anti-feminists to prove rape is soooo not a problem anymore so what are women bitching about? Ahem.
I am seriously very saddened that people came out just to discredit the statistics and say rape culture doesn't exist.
In my experience? I wouldn't be surprised that women are reporting less. People talk. We all know how hard it is to get our rapists even arrested. We know how people will tear our personal lives apart if we speak up. Cops and colleges don't have everyone properly trained and they can say the most hurtful, ignorant, damaging shit. And it's like, why bother? Why should I put myself out there again if my rapist is only going to watch and take pleasure in seeing me crash and burn?
Faced with how cruel society is (example: some of the commenters here) and how ineffective the so-called "justice" system is - it just feels like it's not worth it to report.
Sorry for being so negative, but these comments just remind me why no one took my rape seriously at my school and they treated me like shit. Depressing.
As a woman of a certain age, I remember the bad old days when a rape trial was an excuse to tear into a woman's character and sexual history.
I won't debate stats and numbers here because there is little point given the many interpretations people make with those stats. Yes, it's encouraging that the numbers reported in the most stats show that the overall number of reported rapes has dropped.
The discussion here is what I find most troublesome. There is such incredible anger and emotional reactions that any discussion of this subject results in shout downs, insults, and a viciously ugly attitude. It's saddening.
Having a Feminist space does not mean freedom from critical thinking or frank discussions of issues that we women face every day, including rape. The unwillingness to even discuss difficult issues reminds me of dogma and ideological tyranny, the very characteristics of the patriarchy that we find so offensive.
As well, there is a disappointing undercurrent of victimology in this discussion that is equally disheartening. Identifying as victims puts us in a position of weakness. I see women as resilient, self-reliant, and intelligent, certainly not weak.
There is such incredible anger and emotional reactions that any discussion of this subject results in shout downs, insults, and a viciously ugly attitude.
Oh, I know. Rape is very unemotional. The emotion expressed over this subject is so uncalled for.
And surely the "shout-downs" have nothing to do with the fact that primarily men come out to try to tell female rape survivors about their fucking "statistics" and "teh poor falsely accused" and how they should feel without even SHUTTING THE HELL UP AND LISTENING or making any attempt to understand the humanity and complexity of the issue FIRST.
"I remember the bad old days when a rape trial was an excuse to tear into a woman's character and sexual history."
Hey, so do I! Gosh, the things you see when you get to be my age! These Feministing rugrats just don't know how hard things used to be.
And, yeah, wtf is up with all the rape apologism on this and at least one other Community thread I read recently? A few commenters were out in force making some awesome logical leaps about how being falsely accused of rape is actually just like rape (a violent crime) - or possibly worse! - etc. 1) Regardless of the statistics, rape is a PROBLEM, a much bigger problem than it should be, and the fact that "it doesn't happen as much as everybody says" doesn't even matter. This is just another version of the "STFU uppity American feminists, I'll send you to Guinea and you see what rape REALLY is" masculo-centric whining. 2) It's pretty undeniable that one can probably go to the movie theater or turn on NBC right now and witness "sex" represented as the overt or subtle coercing a woman into something she wasn't quite certain about to begin with. I'd say it's also pretty undeniable that some of this same media is responsible for our massively high gun-homicide rate.
So wtf is up? Really? And why are people so ignorant about the complexity of rape victims' emotions? And ignorant that, yes, it's still actually rape even if it's not violent and you weren't physically bruised or beaten? An awful lot of DATE RAPES, rapes done by a current or former significant other, no doubt go unreported - because our society treats it like it's NOT A BIG ENOUGH DEAL for something as "big" as court proceedings. Especially when the guy was your buddy. Or took you out to eat and bought you flowers. Or is really, deep down, a "nice guy."
Now, if men could just flocking learn to stop coercing or prodding or bothering people for sex who don't want it, we wouldn't need the court proceedings in the first place.
i think there is a middle ground here.
I think we can all agree that there are still an unacceptable amount of people in this country (and in our media) who do not take violence against women and the crime of rape (against anyone) as a serious crime - and rectifying this should continue to be a major goal of feminist movements.
We can also all admit that given the previous statement, the data presented is very promising and shows that we have made strides in reducing the incidence of rape in America, and that we can take some comfort in that the "enemies" of our movement are likely far outnumbered by our allies.
There is still more work to do, but it looks like we are succeeding.
Seems like we should all be able to agree on this.
Here's an idea. Instead of focusing on the number of people raped, let's focus on the number of rapists who DON'T GO TO JAIL for raping. RAINN will tell you it's 15/16. When only 1 in 16 people who commits a particular crime is punished, you know that your culture condones that crime, at least after they fog the definition to make it seem like it wasn't really that crime.
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So, pray tell - who the fuck are you and why the hell are you on our website?
It's not that we're not looking at the positive. The question is: why aren't you looking at the negatives and thinking about the thousands of women being sexually assaulted?
Better yet, what is your dumbass doing to stop sexual assaults, other than whining about how radical and liberal we are on this site?
Go get an education, and then come back and talk to me, kid.
And, and kid, you wouldn't really know what "radical feminism" were even if it smacked you in the face. It's cute how little MRA children like you throw around terms like "radical feminism" withou even knowing what it actually means.
Here's the difference between rapes in Islamic cultures and America: in Islamic culture, women are raped in the opened; in American culture, they're raped on dates and in dorms and barracks rooms, of which some will never, ever be reported.
Just because we're Americans doesn't mean that we're going to stop bashing certain aspects of American culture that's unacceptable.
Put down the porn, and the membership card to your local strip club, and get a library card and read up on feminism before you come back and talk to us, if you want to be taken seriously.
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Do you have an actual point to make, or are you whining about the "radical feminists" screaming about false rapes again?
I say to you as I did the other jackass, if you have to put rape culture in quotations, you're a part of that rape culture.
Go play in traffic, with yourself, or whatever else, but don't come here with stuff like that and expect to be treated seriously.
Folks, the only time these guys give a shit about sexual assaults is when it is presented in a way that places the responsibility on men.
If these losers (and let's all admit MRAs are losers who fell just a little short in life) really gave a shit, they'd actually be up in arms about actual rapes and sexual assaults, rather than whining about how they're "unfairly" blamed or that rape culture doesn't really exist.
So, I'm a guy, and I care deeply about the issues here. Thanks to all the guys who've fumbled around on here getting torn to pieces I've learned some things. There are some communication problems that I feel need to be laid out.
1. Guys who don't in any way condone rape don't like to feel that they're being told that they're a part of rape culture. We live in a very fractured culture these days, and in my little corner of the world I don't see people condoning rape or blaming the victim. So I'd resent being told that I'm a part of rape culture. It's a blanket statement that hurts people who genuinely do care about your issues. Some of them get told that because they question the ubiquity of rape culture, they must support it. I'm sure that no one on here wants to be told that they support rape or trivialize it as an issue.
2. The stories I've seen on this comment stream about the difficulties in getting rape taken seriously by the law are appalling. I know that the "he said/she said" nature of rape can make prosecution difficult. I wouldn't be surprised if many fringe cases where the communication of consent or alcohol are major factors would be harder to get taken seriously. Given all that that I was willing to accept, I didn't realize that it was even close to that hard to get the police to pursue a case. I'd like to know what in police culture makes them so unwilling to pursue rape cases, and if anything is being done about it.
I'm sorry if the rest of Rape Culture seems foreign to me and I'm really unable to grasp it, but I do find it extremely disturbing that any person can't expect the police to follow up on their rape case. I'm glad that this was brought to light, as I was previously quite ignorant about it.
I do think it's encouraging that reported rapes are down, and I'd like to think that the percentage reported has at least held steady. Even if reporting were at 100%, 89,000 is way way too many.
Two years ago, I did not report a grotesque sexual assault that happened to me as a freshman in college for a few reasons:
1) I had been drinking underage (which is punishable by burning at the stake and is definitely and excuse for anyone to do whatever the want to me *sarcasm*)
2) The perpetrator was an extremely wealthy foreign student from a country with a notorious corrupt government (of course I had to stereotype and assume the worst that reporting him could have life-threatening consequences.)
3) My new found freedom and newborn sexual liberation had made me nervous to report seeing all the examples of ripping open the victim's private life, because we all know it's just not that criminal if the victim is not a virgin *more sarcasm*
To this day, although I regret one some accords that I did not report this, I still would probably make this same choice if it happened today. I'm pretty convinced that this could be the reason behind the low rape statistics.
Recently I've gained the courage to open up the assault/rape convo with friends and was BLOWN AWAY by how many of my friends had been in a similar experience. A close friend's situation definitely mirrored mine except she DID report it, and it DID go to court. A "local celebrity" sexually assaulted her and it turned into mud slinging with people standing by this "lovable" personality that they only see his "stage self". That convinced her that reporting such events to be basically useless and she went on to not report a rape the next year (although she told me that the guy played the whole: you were obviously into it card and convinced her that she would feel "less dirty" if she just accept that it was consensual and begin having regular sex with him).
All I am trying to say is from personal experience as a current college student with an open convo with my friends...it is very plausible that the amount of unreported rapes and sexual assaults are astounding.