War Zone
It's after Labor Day, so the worst of holler season is over. But when my friend Jeanne tipped me off to this documentary, I had to share. In War Zone, a woman with a video camera directly confronts men who harass her on the street. (It was made in 1998 -- think of it as kind of a precursor to Holla Back.)
What's fascinating to me is that many of these men don't even seem to have a reason for cat-calling. It's just something they do reflexively. And when she asks them to repeat their harassment directly to her face, it's clear that many of them are embarrassed.
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This was really awesome. Good watching for anyone who doesn't "get" why many women feel threatened by cat-calls.
I dunno..I watched it and I still don't get why a woman would actually feel "threatened". If I'm walking down the street and someone says "hey beautiful" I smile and move on- no harm no foul. If someone looks at me? I mean...that's not threatening at all. I look at people all the time- men, women- the world is full of beautiful people- that's part of what makes it such a nice place to be.
And I know I'm probably really going to get flamed for this- but isn't it something like entrapment for her to be doing her expose' in that particular outfit? She looks really sexy, so of course people are going to notice. If I'd have seen her, I'd have stared a bit, because she's got great arms and shoulders...
I know this is profoundly non pc or whatever, but it's ridiculous to expect that you can dress with a lot of flesh exposed and not have men look at you.
I think a lot of it depends on the context and the individual. Saying "hey, beautiful" to someone in broad daylight on a busy street may not bother some people - it probably wouldn't make me feel threatened or uncomfortable, either - but if I was alone, or it was dark out, or the person was saying something overtly inappropriate or sexual, then it would cross the line into being Not Okay (for me). People have different comfort levels, and hopefully one of the things that happened for the men in the movie is that although THEY might see staring and cat-calling as relatively harmless, not everyone on the receiving end does.
Yeah, she's SO sexy and guys are nothing but DUMB animals when it comes to women that they lose all self-control and have to act like jackasses. No. That's insulting. To guys.
What you're missing is the inherent threat to the catcalls that a lot of women feel. Let me put it this way, if you went into a prison and got catcalled, would you take it as a compliment or a threat?
While not exactly the same, you might start to get the picture. Women experience catcalls from men who we don't know who are larger and may turn angry or violent if the catcalls are rebuffed (it's happened to most of us before).
I'll take a compliment in the spirit in which it's intended, but catcalls are usually just ways to put women in their place as objects to be viewed by men.
ENTRAPMENT. REALLY. WOW.
So she is forcing men to make derogatory remarks to her because she's wearing a sleeveless shirt? Talk about victim-blaming.
I wish I knew where to begin. I will have to leave it to more eloquent commenters. All I can say is: no one deserves sexual harassment, no matter what they're wearing. Everyone deserves to be treated with respect. It is NOT respectful to treat people as sexual objects by making rude comments or staring inappropriately, EVEN IF they are wearing clothing that reveals their arms & shoulders (?!).
First of all, I should qualify that I'm a woman. Moreover, I'm a woman with a history of abuse- but I don't think of myself as a victim. Perhaps that history, though, makes it even more difficult for me to think of this woman as "victim" of anything.
I'd like to talk a bit about this idea that it doesn't matter what a woman wears, any unwanted attention from a man is harrassment and makes her a victim. I think this idea is a really dangerous one to be giving young girls, especially in a world where skank culture is so celebrated. Women/girls do have some control over how they are perceived and treated by men and it lies in the way they present themselves.
If I walk down the street in a mini skirt, revealing top and high heels- I am asking for men to stare at me. I am. And as long as no one touches me or enters my personal space in a threatening way, I really have no room to complain about it.
It reminds me of an article in the onion entitled
"Area woman tired of men staring at her breast implants"
I can't speak for the others, but my main message regarding clothing is that men do not have the right to make sexually explicit comments, touch, or follow women because of what they're wearing. Yes, in today's society it may seem be "better" to tell girls to cover up to avoid harassment & assault but actually they'll probably get harassed or assaulted anyway at some point in their lives, no matter what they wear. Until men (and some women) change their actions and attitudes toward women and until society values women for more than their "sexiness," this will be true.
As I said earlier, there is a difference between looking and being completely inappropriate. I think everyone knows the difference whether they want to admit it or not. Yes, people who dress out of the ordinary or are very attractive or considered extremely unattractive may get more looks for it than an "average" looking person "averagely" dressed -- the problem is when it goes beyond looks to comments, stares at particular body parts, touching, following etc.
Also, if I walk down the street in a mini skirt and high heels and a low cut top, that does not mean I am looking for any and every man to evaluate me and it does not give them the right to do so out loud as I walk by. Maybe I like the way I look. Maybe it's goddamn hot out and I don't want to wear a lot of clothes. Maybe I am doing it to look nice for my significant other I am meeting. For men to presume every woman who looks dressed up is dressing up for them and therefore they have the right to comment on them is presumptuous and indicative of a patriarchal society.
"If I walk down the street in a mini skirt, revealing top and high heels- I am asking for men to stare at me. I am. And as long as no one touches me or enters my personal space in a threatening way, I really have no room to complain about it."
FUCK THAT.
"I am asking for men to stare at me"
You actually used the old "asking for it" trope. Go fluff your troll hair.
I'm sorry. Please allow me to rephrase that in a more politically correct way.
If I am walking down the street in a mini skirt, reavealing top and high heels, I should not be at all surprised or shocked if men stare at me.
I really dislike how people with differing opinions are deemed trolls right away in such a dismissive fashion. I'm trying to have a discussion, not cause trouble or whatever. Jeez.
And I really dislike how people who come on here with victim blaming attitudes like "asking for it" (which you did use, rephrase all you want, it's there) then whine when they're called out like the trolls they're being.
Besides, I thought victim-blaming was against the TOS?
Maybe she shouldn't be "surprised" or "shocked", but that doesn't mean men's behavior is OK. I wouldn't be "surprised" or "shocked" if I was in Paris and I got my wallet stolen, but that doesn't excuse the pickpocket's behavior.
"Women/girls do have some control over how they are perceived and treated by men and it lies in the way they present themselves."
So I guess to follow this argument further in terms of women being able to control men's actions by how we act, then women also have control over whether or not men beat us, rape us, stalk us? Cause I guess if women just didn't provoke men or tempt men with our sexuality and provocative dress then we would all be safe and free from male violence. Riiiight.
I really do wish it were this simple. I understand that some people want so desperately to believe that this is all it takes…as long as I do X, Y, and Z, then I will be fine. I won’t be hurt. It is hard to recognize and come to terms with women’s collective vulnerability to violence and harassment. The problem is that there is no laundry list of things women can or should do to prevent violence against us. While doing X, Y, and Z might make us feel safe, it is false security. In addition, it separates us from other women and allows a climate in which women are judged for not doing X, Y, and Z and then being blamed for the violence they experience. As hard as it is, we have to realize that the only way to prevent things like abuse, rape, harassment, domestic violence, is if the perpetrators of these crimes, make the choice to not rape, harass, or abuse. It has nothing to do with what women do or don’t do. This simple quote sums it up “Men Make Choices.”
so am i "asking for it" when I purposely wear long gym shorts or baggy sweatpants, an oversized shirt, and my hair just pulled back? b/c thats what i would do on days that i took public transportation, i wanted to look as "grungy" as possible so as to avoid as much attention and whistles as i could. but guess what? it never worked. i couldnt have been more covered up and i still got whistles and comments
No. Just no. That line of thinking excuses men for bad behavior. A smile is all it takes for some men to see an invitation...will you accuse women of "asking for it" when they smile at someone? A guy tried to pull me into his truck the other day when he stopped me on my way to the market to ask for directions. I was wearing a t-shirt and jogging pants, had no makeup on and certainly gave him no reason to believe I was interested in being "claimed".
Women have been blamed for the actions of men towards them for long enough. It's time for men to own up to their own fucking behavior and either control their urges (like those of us who don't see them as beasts incapable of rational thought know they can) or spend more time spanking the monkey to get it out of their systems. If they can't do that, they should be held responsible and punished accordingly when they harass or assault.
Fuck you and your rape apologist attitude.
I'm so sick of men saying they don't see the big deal with catcalls or they don't get why women feel threatened. As if we're lying about it. Guess what? We DO FEEL THREATENED! I get catcalled about once a week, usually more. It's happened when I wear shorts, skirts, sweatpants, it doesn't matter. Sometimes it's seemingly innocuous. Sometimes I feel in danger. Sometimes I yell back at the man to shut the fuck up. Sometimes I run away. Sometimes I'm followed down the street when I refuse to answer the man's calls. Sometimes the calls get more and more salacious. Sometimes I'm cursed at for "being a prude bitch." Once a man spit in my direction and missed because I ignored him.
How about men just fucking stop? How about that?
And I see that you've qualified your above statement saying that you're a woman. I don't see how this changes anything. I've seen women and men alike say that don't "get it" and it still pisses me off. I wrote a whole community post about the topic a few months ago. Just because YOUR lived experience is to not feel threatened does not make it everyone's experience and you need to respect that.
But I do apologize though for assuming that you were male based on some of your comments.
I do respect the perspectives of others and totally understand that the experiences of others may not be the same as my own. However, I do believe that as women, we are strong. I am not afraid of men, and I don't walk around feeling victimized or objectified because a man's eyes have lingered too long on my breasts or my legs.
And just a bit of food for thought regarding clothing-
I was once at the park with my daughter and a friend of her's and the girl's mother. The other mother elbowed me in the side to get my attention and was like "Look! That man is staring at my daughter's ass! Can you believe that? Just look at him!" She was really incensed, and seemed genuinely surprised and shocked when I suggested to her that maybe he was just trying to read what was written there on her shorts, which happened to be "HOTTIE".
Yeah, it takes me at least a minute or two to read the six letter word: Hottie. /snark
You're really something. I said I've been catcalled in sweatpants before but obviously I'm a liar, right? Or my butt must've had some cryptic message that the assholes were just trying to decipher, huh? Funny, because I never buy pants with words on them. But I must be mistaken and so please, tell me how I should feel next time I'm harrassed on the street.
And you say you actually do "respect the perspectives of others and totally understand that the experiences of others may not be the same as my own" but then continue on with "I don't walk around feeling victimized or objectified because a man's eyes have lingered too long on my breasts or my legs." Well SOME WOMEN DO! That's the whole freaking point. You are not everyone! And with some people it involves much much more than just eyes lingering too long on their breasts, as we've already pointed out. But hey, I guess we're all liars.
However, I do believe that as women, we are strong. I am not afraid of men
Well, bully for you. A lot of us are afraid of men, for good reason. I think it better that men stop acting like pigs than it is women police them or wave our hands and roll our eyes and sigh, "Men!"
The 5 minute clip doesn't do justice to the 70-something minute film. In it she explores the question why a woman could feel threatened by something as simple as a "hey beautiful." In part the answer is that one never know which man will escalate that attention. Particularly for women who have been assaulted or followed by men in the past or when the "hey beautiful" comes from a someone among a group of men to a woman alone in an isolated area, there can be an element of fear.
On the other hand, something as simple as "hey beautiful" won't feel threatening to all women depending on the context and her personal history with violence, but what gives men the right to voice that evaluation to a woman's face as she walks by? They don't usually do that to women who are with men and harassers don't usually do it when they (harassers) are with women. Why do you think that is? Also, they were totally surprised and upset when she stopped to talk to them about it. Several said they didn't expect women to stop or they knew that women didn't like it. Yet they keep doing it.
Also, I cannot emphasize enough that it DOESN'T MATTER what a woman wears!! Sure, we all look at people and she did not stop anyone who had not blatantly stared at a body part or leered longer than is socially acceptable. Showing flesh should not matter. Do you think in societies where women walk around topless they are constantly harassed by men? No, it's a social construction. Women in countries where being covered is required are still harassed (Egypt and Yemen both issued reports on this within the last year). Men can control themselves and should.
"Entrapment"? "A lot of flesh exposed"? Just where the hell do you live, anyway? I'm not going to address how much she was wearing or whether it was reasonable b/c your just changing the subject. She could wearing a thong and pasties, that doesn't mean she deserves to be catcalled.
The men's reactions make it clear why catcalling is threatening. It's a way of letting women know who controls the space, and if you challenge the status quo as a woman, the men can turn violent. The implied violence to a woman who doesn't accept the catcalling is what makes it threatening.
Are you seriously, seriously suggesting that a woman should be entitled to walk down the street in a thong and pasties and that the men who would catcall to her are victimizing her?
That is so...that's unbelievable to me.
The message there is it doesn't matter how you present yourself, no matter what you do, if something happens and you don't like it, it's the other person's fault, always.
And as a woman and the mother of a pre-teen girl, I just don't think that's...well....smart.
I will seriously, seriously suggest that and I will go on record as being male bodied while I'm at it (not that my physical sex should matter). If a woman is walking down the street in a thong and pasties that is not an invitation for me to say or do whatever I want to her just because her attire is unusual. I would probably gawk for a moment (as would anyone in this society, regardless of age, race, or gender, I suspect) but then, surprise, surprise, I would keep on walking.
What's far more shocking than a girl in a thong and pasties is what you are suggesting: that the solution to aggressive male behavior falls on the shoulders of the women who are being harassed. That, to me, sounds completely insane. When I get dressed in the morning, I take into account my destination and personal style. No more, no less. Why should it ever be in any way remotely different for any other human being?
"male bodied"? You say that as if it is some sort of handi-cap or something.
If a woman were walking down the street in pasties and a thong, I'm sure most people would just stare a bit and move on. Perhaps others would cat-call. Either way, a woman walking down the street that way is NOT sending a message about anything other than sex and would rightfully be perceived accordingly.
Of course nobody has the right to touch or be aggressive with them. Of course that's not okay.
But at the same time, if women don't want to be seen as or treated like sex objects, not dressing like one is a good place to start.
Nudity and sex are not the same thing. Partial nudity and sex are not the same thing. Any person at any time showing as much skin as they want is not necessarily about sex.
Even if a given person *is* dressing to send the message that they are interested in sex (and that could be by wearing a full length gown which covers them completely), that does not make their body into public property. Catcalling is still harassment.
Let me be more direct. I feel that you are suggesting, amongst other things, that those of us who are male bodied are incapable of controlling ourselves. I have never catcalled a woman (or a man, for that matter) in my life. I have my own opinions on the taste level of having the word "hottie" emblazoned on one's ass but, hey, that's why *I* don't wear such things! It's called personal style but I think mine should have no impact on what anyone else chooses to wear when they walk out the door. Go figure.
Much more importantly though: a naked woman (or nearly naked) is automatically reduced to her sex in your mind? I find that extremely telling.
"Much more importantly though: a naked woman (or nearly naked) is automatically reduced to her sex in your mind? I find that extremely telling."
Well, we were speaking specifically about pasties and a thong, which is, traditionally, a wardrobe exclusive to strippers who *are* overtly sexy and sexualized, so yes, if I saw a woman dressed that way I would think of her in a sexual way, or assume that that was the message she was trying to send.
As for naked or nearly naked people in general, I dunno, I guess maybe I'm kind of a prude?
I think by "male bodied," bitsy was referring to individuals born in a male body. Not everyone born in a male body is hetero. So your comment about "handi-cap" is pretty short-sighted at best.
Full disclosure: I am trans but unable to transition due to health and monetary reasons. I present male because, were I to attempt otherwise, I would, without question, be murdered within an hour.
Speaking of which, someone should really make a similar documentary focusing on the harassment of trans men and women.
I think by "male bodied," bitsy was referring to individuals born in a male body. Not everyone born in a male body is hetero. So your comment about "handi-cap" is pretty short-sighted at best.
No, not everyone born in a male body is hetero, but they are all male. Except when they're TG, of course. Is that what you meant?
Women aren't seen as sex objects because of the way we dress but because of our very existenance. We were treated as no more than madonna/whores when wearing girtles and tons of fabric and are treated as such regardless of if wearing long skirts or hot pants.
Are you for real? Women are often cat called because they are in public space, that's it.
Who are you to determine what "dressing like a sex object" looks like? And you seem to keep missing the fact that women get harassed and catcalled NO MATTER WHAT THEY'RE WEARING. They're being treated as sex objects because they are women and are in public.
I had a Muslim classmate who covered everything but her face and her hands. Guess what? Still catcalled. I'm usually catcalled when running when I'm wearing gross running clothes and generally looking as unsexy as I ever get. But it's also those times that I am usually out alone in public exposed to the male gaze for an extended period of time.
IT'S NOT ABOUT WHAT A WOMAN WEARS! It's about women being treated as sex objects because they have the gall to go out in public.
Why yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting. Glad you figured it out. And you know why catcalling is the catcallers' fault? Because they are the ones who do it. Unless the pasties are arranged in a pattern to read "Please catcall at me," wearing them in no way indicates a desire to be harassed.
Well, if I saw a woman walking down the street that way, I'd probably cat-call at her myself, but it'd be something along the lines of
"Hey, go put some clothes on!" or "Here, take my coat!"
Yes! Thank you FrumiousB! Let's be more honest about this. It seems that men catcall women no matter where they are or what women wear. Is it so absurd to take clothing out of the picture? Were cavemen walking around with boners all of the time because cavewomen weren't wearing clothes? Clothing isn't "natural" and neither is catcalling.
Cave people? Really? Well if we're going to look to them for behavior models, I guess men should just start clubbing us on the head and dragging us by the hair to their caves?
Clothes may not be "natural", but I'm pretty glad we wear them. And even in the most primitive of remaining tribal cultures, they cover up their genitals, as far as I know.
You or I may not feel threatened by a "hi beautiful", but what about the experiences of the 14 year old girl in the film (I think she was in New Orleans, it's been years since I've seen this) who had a cousin who'd recently been raped, and felt intimidated by the men who leered, wiggled their tongues, etc. ? They were doing this to a child! And it wasn't as benign as "hi beautiful." What about the whole scene with the weird dynamic between the mother, daughter, and the man the mother had met on the street?
As for what she was wearing, it was a tank top, loose skirt, and leggings--a pretty average outfit for a summer day, I think. Are we "entrapping men" now unless we wrap ourselves up in Hefty trash bags or something?
Funny enough, I just watched the full film for the 3rd time last night as part of my street harassment research. I'm writing a book on the topic and one chapter looks at why men engage in this behavior and her documentary is really useful! Each time I view the documentary I am impressed by Maggie's courage and how well she addresses the various myths surrounding street harassment as "complimentary" and shows how annoying, scary, and demeaning it is.
On my stop street harassment website, I've got lots of other resources listed for anyone interested in other documentaries, books, articles, or websites about street harassment: http://stopstreetharassment.com/resources/index.htm Let me know if you know about any I don't list and I'll add them. (stopstreetharassmentATyahooDOTcom)
You also can anonymously share your street harassment stories & I'll add them to the stop street harassment blog to help raise awareness about the problem.
I have to wonder why some of these men were so embarrassed and angry if they didn't mean anything by their actions, as many men claim to do when cat calling. That's the first response you see most of the time, claims that the woman involved is overreacting. This is obviously not true, or they'd be forthright and say they didn't mean to objectify. Turning the camera makes THEM feel like the one getting catcalled and having their space taken from them.I think the ones who got angriest were the ones who knew that what they were doing isn't ok.
I've confronted a guy before in the mall regarding this when he was looking at a woman in a really disgusting way and trying to talk to her. He was actually really respectful of me and told me he honestly never thought of it that way. He even thanked me for our conversation! (I was technically at work, so maybe he would have acted differently on the street, but I don't think so).
I don't think this type of confrontation of men who are objectifying women is in vain. It can be very constructive. And if nothing else, then it embarrasses the assholes :)
"Turning the camera makes THEM feel like the one getting catcalled and having their space taken from them."
Very very interesting observation!
I really needed this today...thank you
I think a girl showed this in my WMST class last semester. I didn't realize it was a whole documentary, it was just a clip she showed. I might have to look into this.
I have used sections of this video in college classes to discuss issues of harassment, sexual violence. If you watch the whole video, she interviews many young women of color about their experience of being harassed on the street by primarily by white men. Shows the ways in which men's objectification and harassment of women is often racist as well as sexist.
As for the commenter who still doesn’t “get why women would be threatened just because someone is looking at her” I would suggest really talking with and more importantly, listening to women’s experience with street harassment. Ask your female friends if this sort of thing has ever happened to them and how it made them feel…I am sure they have many examples to choose from. Even if some don’t see it as threatening and see it as a compliment, certainly not all women feel that way and for men to assume that is the case, is really just a way to excuse and justify sexist behavior. Sure, staring and saying “hey beautiful” may not seem all that threatening in and of itself, but the point is, that as the woman in this situation, you have no way of knowing whether that harmless stare is going to lead to more threatening behavior. You are out of control of that situation…it all depends on what that particular guy decides to do…will he follow you, will he try to grab you, will he escalate his actions? Part of what makes it all so threatening is that it could easily escalate and you have little control over it…and dressing “appropriately” (whatever that means) is not exerting control over the situation. Men make choices, and they can easily choose not to treat women in ways that make them feel threatened.
A friend of mine gets catcalled all the time in her neighbourhood (cute girl + lots of men standing around with nothing to do, I guess). One time when she didn't respond to a "Hey beautiful," the guy turned around and yelled, "Hey, you sure got a fat ass on you!" She lost her temper, went back and started yelling at the guy, who instantly went back to trying to pick her up.
Shows you something: this guy found verbal abuse a turn-on, which is probably why he verbally abuses random women.
I think I'll rent this movie and watch it with her.
There was an article i read about street harassment in college several years back. men generally harassed women because they felt women might need the compliments and many were very conscious not to do it at night when it might be interpreted as threatening.
but probably the worst times ive ever been harassed was when im alone with my kids. even in the middle of the day, any attention from some strange guy makes me go into mama bear mode. besides the fucking fabbbullous example they are setting for my boys.
this is brilliant. i think i need to start carrying a camera around to record the sexual harassment that i experience EVERY DAY. i literally cannot remember the last time i walked outside and i didn't get harassed. recently, though, ive been calling it out and it is SO empowering. the most recent incident was when a man yelled to me from his window and i stopped, looked up and yelled "oh wowww you are SOO masculine. why don't you come down here and give me your number because you are just so charming" and he was so embarassed that he was literally speechless. it was amazing.
to sushi - your victim blaming is ridiculous. and the assumptions you make about why people dress the way they dress are also ridiculous. i wear slutty clothes. yes. i love mini skirts and tight jeans and low cut shirts and guess what i dont wear a bra! gasp!! im like SO deserving of harassment, yeah? because im 'asking for it', yeah? well im also queer as hell and the male gaze is the LAST thing that i am dressing for. in fact, when i am forced to cover up my body (which i was for my ENTIRE childhood) i never feel like myself. so fuck the idea that im dressing for men to stare at me when all i am doing is trying to be comfortable in my own body and gender performance.
as someone who, like i said, gets harassed EVERY DAY and usually multiple times a day, my resistance and my way of saying FUCK YOU to all the people who objectify me is by continuing to wear what i WANT to wear and what makes me feel comfortable and good.
Wow. You were forced to wear non slutty clothes for your entire childhood? How awful for you. I hope you duly resent your parents for inflicting such damage upon you.
And I get it- you're gay. You don't like, want or appreciate the "male gaze". But you've got to realize that men make up a little less than half the population and they're (unfortunately, I guess) out there wandering freely with eyeballs in their heads, and everyone knows men will look at girls who are sluttily dressed. (your words, not mine)
It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that your way of combating harassment is to continue to dress in the way that gets you harassed, but whatever.
READ THE FUCKING COMMENTS. IT'S NOT HOW WE DRESS THAT GETS US CATCALLED.
I don't normally "internet yell" at people, but for FUCK'S sake, you keep IGNORING what every single other fucking commenter has said to you. I get cat-called while wearing WORK CLOTHES. The whole summer that I was 20 and interned in a law firm downtown where I had to walk to the courthouse several times a week, I experienced a fucking explosion of catcalling that I'd never experienced before. While wearing a suit, or dress pants and a work-appropriate shirt.
Sometimes it's just time to shut the fuck up and listen.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that your way of combating harassment is to continue to dress in the way that gets you harassed, but whatever.
Victim-blaming is so hard to turn off because that's what we've been told our entire lives - it's our fault. But look at it a different way - the fact that one might have to choose different clothes to be safe is a restriction of freedom in the same way that, to feel safe, you can't go anywhere at night alone - you must take a friend.
okay wow. first of all, i said im queer - not gay.
second - you dont know anything about my upbringing so you're snarky comment re: what i was allowed/not allowed to wear growing up, is fucked up and just ignorant.
and finally - are you suggesting that i should cover my body (even if it means taht i dont feel comfortable in it) as a response/resistance to street harassment?? i mean, really...isnt that the expected response? isnt that a way to keep women in their place and acting (and dressing) the way that society deems 'appropriate'? the fact that the way that i often dress is seen as wrong or WHATEVER is FUCKED UP. its not okay that i cant wear what i want to wear. and im not telling other people to dress in any particular way - but i should have the freedom to wear whatever the fuck i want.
see, street harassment has REAL consequences. it can take you from feeling super confident to feeling like you are just an object. i have seen it fuck with so many people's sense of self. it changes the way people interact with the world. so when a random person on the street says something disgusting to me, im not going to go home and cover up and make myself into something that im NOT just to appease them. my resistance is to continue being who i am, dressing how i feel comfortable, and not letting asshole STRANGERS dictate my life.
(and by the way, i have been victimized by sexual and physical violence multiple times in my life. and if i hear another person even IMPLY that i asked for it, based on the way that i dress/act/talk/whatever, i am going to lose it. seriously. and i cant believe that this victim blaming rhetoric is yet again appearing on the walls of feministing.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7514567.stm
"More than 60% - including female respondents - suggested the scantily clad woman was most at risk. But in reality the study concluded the majority of the victims of harassment were modestly dressed women wearing Islamic headscarves."
The reports from Egypt are the easiest ones for me to google, but I can also recall the stories of many, many women both in the U.S. in small and large towns and abroad who dress "modetly" but are harrassed never the less. And you know what's interesting? Internationally they come to the same conclusions:
- It's not about the way women dress
-Men do it to assert dominance, entitlement and claim to space
Drop the clothing claim, it's BS on so many levels and studies the world over have shown that. In addition, even panties and pasties don't illicit an involuntary response of harrassment. You remind me of one story in particular from a modest dressing woman who berates women for "deserving" and "attracting" harrassment for the way they dress. When she herself is harrassed in an ankle length skirt and loose blouse w/sleeves, it is of course a different story.
If women try to dress in a way to discourage catcalling, it will be a slippery slope to male escorts when out and staying home as much as possible.
I'm with you, fatima, I remember once upon a time being out with friends, walking a few blocks, a car drives by yelling "nice legs!!" Although at the time, despite how off-putting it is to have someone yell things at you from a car, I was like "well, at least it was a compliment." not half a minute later someone yells "slut!" Yeah, I was wearing a mini-skirt, doesn't give the general public the right to scream shit at me. And there is a world of difference between say, an actual compliment on my legs, versus someone yelling something from a car or along the sidewalk. Someone genuinely noticing my legs and felt the strong urge, not to ask their friend to stop the car and talk to me, but to yell? No. These are acts designed to take me down a peg, to make me acknowledge SOMEONE IS LOOKING AT YOU!! JUDGING YOU!! REMINDER!! you know? Screw that.
This is not to discount the times I've been in ankle-length skirts, full tops, whatever, and still had random crap yelled at me. What the hell does it matter? Leering/yelling stuff (even "hey you!" "Pretty girl!") isn't complimentary or a natural reflex, it is harassing.
Look everyone, I do understand that women will receive unwanted attention from men no matter what they wear. I hear you. I get it. I do.
But I honestly believe that unless they get really aggressive or vulgar and start chasing you down the street, it's nothing to get that worked up over. I don't believe that most men are rapists in waiting to be feared or hated.
I further believe that, just as men have choices about how to behave and react to things, women do too.
I can choose to blow it off and go about my day, or I can choose to feel victimized.
I know this, one day I'm going to be an old woman, invisible to the world as I walk down the street.
I think that then I might fondly remember the days when I turned a head or two, or even got the occasional "hey baby".
I think that then I might fondly remember the days when I turned a head or two, or even got the occasional "hey baby".
Yeah, we should all just be so damn thankful that random strangers who we couldn't care less about find us attractive. It validates me as a woman, apparently!
Holy crap! By this logic I have totally failed as a man by not validating women with my leers and personal commentary. This must be rectified immediately.
Dear alixana,
Hey, baby. Your words are looking fine as hell. I want to fuck the shit out of those words you just typed. Damn.
*stares*
Pervertedly yours,
bitsy
Yeah, that's what I was saying. Completely.
No...
But it *is* nice being seen as attractive by whatever gender it is to whom you are attracted, isn't it?
Sometimes men look at me, and I like that they do.
I'm not ashamed of that in the slightest.
"But I honestly believe that unless they get really aggressive or vulgar and start chasing you down the street, it's nothing to get that worked up over."
The problem is, we can't tell who will be aggressive and who won't.
Once, a friend and I were sitting in her car at a drive-thru waiting for our food. I looked out my window and screamed because a man had gotten out of his car and was standing there, waving and smiling at us. We were both very scared, locked the doors and flipped him off. He laughed, got back in his friend's car (which was right in front of us in line) and waited for his food. When he drove off, he waited for us in the parking lot and followed us out. They chased us for a good 15 minutes through a neighborhood, my friend speeding and taking hard turns to try to lose them.
We had no phone to call the police, so we just tried to run and and lose them. Eventually we did, but we were really terrified. Maybe if we had just waved at the guy and smiled, he'd have left us alone. But he saw that we were scared, saw that he made us uncomfortable, and thought "Hey, it'd be fun to scare these girls even more." OR he may have taken the smile and wave as an invitation and followed us anyway, expecting to be welcome.
Right well that's obviously well beyond your average cat-calling incident, and I'm sure I'd have been frightened, as well. But, and perhaps I am being naive (but I really don't think so) men that will get aggressive really are in the minority.
My motto is be prepared, not scared.
Buy mace and take karate.
Then just live your life.
You're right, something like that won't happen every time a guy decides to cat-call a woman. But you can see why we feel threatened when they do something as simple as waving. Because if the gesture is not returned, they can turn violent. And often times in the gesture is returned, their persistence is almost violent.
How about smiling or a simple nod? Does that make you feel threatened? Would you feel better/safer if men just didn't acknowledge women at all anymore?
I'm not being sarcastic or bitchy, I'm honestly asking if that's what you the other women here would prefer?
I live in Texas, and it's true, we're all ridiculously friendly. Most times if a person smiles or nods at me, if I notice it, I'll return it. I've got no problem making small talk with strangers, or letting them hold the door open for me, etc. I do have a severe problem with strangers who attempt to flirt with me. I am not a flirtatious person, and do not need to be told by a stranger that I look "good."
There are situations where being complimented for your looks is fine, like the other day when an elderly man stopped me and my mom in a store to tell me that he thought I dressed very well and looked very nice. He wasn't being creepy, just sincerely saying that he didn't see many young ladies dress like that anymore. I'm fine with that, since I don't think he intended to imply anything negative. And I get that sort of thing from women all the time, so I know it's a gender neutral comment.
Exactly: the gentleman was seeing you, acknowledging you as a person with a consciousness. He was seeing a human being, not merely sexual anatomy.
You just don't listen.
Forget the fact that a smile, as some have pointed out, could be seen as an invitation to further conversation or harrassment. Forget that then a woman would be seen as encouraging said behavior by someone like, say you for example. Forget all that silliness *eye roll*
How about we don't need to give them a smile or a wave because WE OWE THEM NOTHING! Our bodies don't belong to them. They are not their for their approval or whatever. They don't own us. They don't deserve our acknowledgment and we don't need to give it to them if we don't want to. OUR BODIES ARE OUR OWN!
Is it possible that JesiDangerously would prefer to feel that men were acknowledging her as a person? That they were not saying, basically, "Hello, tits"? That they realized there was a human being in there?
But there's no way to know whether he's going to be the one who simply walks away, or the one who doesn't. As Kate Nepveu put it in her comments on last year's Open Source Boobs incident, "You could, in short, not be a danger to me. But how am I supposed to know that? How am I supposed to distinguish you from the person who says he's really just whatever, but is actually going to put emotional pressure on me, or make a scene, or stalk me, or rape me?"
@ fatima, would you be offended if a woman liked your slutty appearance and commented it on, told you she thought you were beautiful. would you feel threatened
sexual harassment is sexual harassment. and i fuckign stand up against it no matter WHO does it.
and fyi just because im queer doesnt mean im a man-hater...or that i think that only men are capable of abuse or misogyny. im a lot fucking smarter than that.
I don't see how confronting guys who were looking at her without saying anything fit into her harassment project.
She confronted a guy for "looking at my breasts". We'd need more context to understand that one. Was he leering at her? Does the violation escalate if the guys has a camera and is recording her breasts, but remaining silent?
Based on how violently and/or evasively the men reacted to her accusing them of looking at her breasts, I'm willing to bet they were guilty of leering. If a man who had simply glanced at her breasts in passing or by accident were accused by a woman with a camera, you'd think he'd protest, maybe so "No, no, I didn't, and if I did, I didn't mean to. I apologize." But no, instead they told her to go fuck herself. Speaks volumes.
When she said she was making a movie about sexual harassment to the guy with the shades, he said "I don't harass them, I just look at them. I don't say nutin'... freedom of sight." I didn't think that was evasive.
She asked another guy "And what's the message you're trying to give to women when you check them out?"
"The message?" he says, "Hello. You either look good or you don't." He was sheepish when she asked him to rate her, but I thought he was honest.
I don't see why a man should be expected to only look at a woman's breasts in passing or accidentally. You end up with the the "Sex is Everywhere" speech from Roger Dodger: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sXvxpxibhs
I don't know then. Maybe the way that they were looking at her was enough to make her feel uncomfortable. I do not wear revealing clothing, am a naturally modest gal. But I have large breasts, especially for a small girl like myself. Anytime I catch someone looking at them, I feel very self-conscious, and often rather uncomfortable. Being gawked at doesn't help my body issues one bit.
I'm sure you have heard the commonly-used phrase "you ever have that feeling someone is staring at you?" or "you can just feel someone's eyes on you?" It is a very uncomfortable feeling. You want to escape. It is very evasive. And have you ever been told it's rude to stare? That's because it makes people uncomfortable. I'm sure she was making sure people were leering and not absent-mindedly glancing.
And saying with your eyes whether someone looks good or not is just plain rude. There's a lot of things that just aren't socially accepted because they're trashy, offensive and rude. Like rating complete stranger's acceptance by their bra size. In California when fit men walk around in only swimsuits I don't leer at their stomachs and think "mmm, that's an 8." Why? Because they'll probably notice. They'll probably feel uncomfortable. It's really quite simple.
I'd agree that it can be rude and inappropriate, but think it's a stretch to call an admiring look "sexual harassment".
I don't understand why you'd want to repress your feelings of physical attraction toward someone, in your own head.
Oh, well thank you "admiring" my boobies! That makes it sound like pedestal. You admire a painting. You don't admire a stranger's crotch and chest. And saying "I want to hit that" with your eyes is unfortunately just as irritating as coming out and saying "I want to hit that." You know what makes me even more uncomfortable than people starting relentlessly at me? Strangers staring at me with thoughts about [insert fantasy as far as the perverted imagination can take you here]. I've seen people admire things. And I've seen leering at women. Not the same.
And for some odd reason I feel like my freedom to walk through town without wondering what that creepy stranger imagines doing to me while he is leering at me overrides his "freedom to stare." Fine, look at women. You don't understand how leering is sexual harassment, I don't understand how it is oppression for men to refrain from staring at my boobs with crazy eyes.
Where are the moderators? I was giving sushi the benefit of the doubt at first, but the endless victim blaming and derailing and blatant disrespect is starting to get irritating...
Of course let's ban her. Isn't that always the response here. Jeez. She's asked some good questions and raised some good points. Non in an offensive manner. Im still waiting to hear what some folks on here advocate. Should men simply stop acknowledging women. Avert their eyes anytime a woman walks by?
No she HAS NOT raised some good points. She is VICTIM BLAMING up the ass and not listening to a single thing anyone is saying.
And moderators don't just ban people by the way. They also pop into threads and tell people when they are out of line. But you always seem to complain on Feministing about everything we do here so why am I even bothering to explain anything to you?
I don't believe I am victim blaming. Certainly that is not my intention. I have been polite and respectful and asked genuine questions. Perhaps you don't think any of my points are good, but I do, and perhaps some others do as well. I don't think it's healthy to be so knee-jerk reactionary and dismissive of differing opinions or perspectives.
You know what's funny? I have been commenting ona women hating web-site for over a year- sticking up for women and trying to bring some balance to their oft ridiculous generalizations and misconceptions. I get called a feminazi and a cunt all the time. They've been telling me forever that I belonged here instead.
Guess not.
Cripes, we're really rolling in the typical derails here, aren't we? Now we're at, "Aren't you so sorry you don't have me as an ally now?"
Doesn't matter if you believe you're victim blaming or not. Your tone and "respectfulness" have nothing to do with that. You are telling women that a) their actions caused their harassment, and b) it is up to them to react correctly to the harassment. There is no believing or disbeliving here, this is the very definition of victim blaming. I mean, I might decide today that I don't believe that the sky is above my head, but it sure doesn't change things.
Stop with your "concern" about what's "healthy" for us. We don't care what you think about that. Your use of the words "knee-jerk reactionary" shows you think as little of women as you do of men. I'm tired of your suggestions that men simply lack "impulse control" or have low IQs like you did in your newest down below. We're ALL smarter than that. We all think about what we do and have full control over it. The people who disagreed with you did not have knee-jerk reactions, they had fully considered thoughts. And the men who cat-call do not lack impulse control or intelligence. They choose to harass and can choose to stop. Give everybody a little more credit than that. Or don't. Your negative view of everyone is trite and tiresome.
I'm not saying that women's actions caused their harassment.
Nor am I saying that men in general have low iqs and poor impulse control- I was speaking then specifically about the leering tongue man, and I do believe that in that case that probably was, well, the case. Most men just don't do that.
My intention here really was just to find out what constituted harassment/threatening behavior in the minds of most women. Is it looking? A whistle? What is the line? If it varies from woman to woman, how are men supposed to know?
I mean there is behavior to me that seems obviously intrusive and vulgar- following, yelling obscenities, tongue wagging etc.
But when it comes to the more benign behaviors, I guess I have a hard time thinking of a woman who gets whistled at as being a victim. Is that really so weird or bad?
And I do think there have been some knee jerk reactions. I think perhaps some people have decided on my intent and simply aren't open to anything I have to say.
god, this is so long. sorry!
Sushi, I am kind of stunned at some of the things you are saying. It's like I went into the twilight zone and am reading a slut-shaming "how to not get raped" pamphlet from some 1950's facility where they put "troublesome" women.
We've had the compliment vs. ill-intent conversation before, and I will opine that it isn't black and white. I do not believe every man is out to "get" me/rape me/whatever. I do believe some men genuinely want to compliment women. I won't even disagree that compliments feel good in the right context. I won't lie and say I don't care about my appearance, or that I am not flattered if someone respectfully complements me.
The point is, many men, whether they analyze their behavior or not, when cat calling are doing some or all of the following:
-establishing dominance or power over the woman they are cat-calling
-establishing THEIR territory/space/area, letting the woman know she has no ownership of public space, no "right" to be where she is
-attempting to show the woman she is an object, for his or someone else's pleasure
-viewing a woman's body as public property
-attempting to degrade/shame a woman
-looking for a fight/reaction, possibly so as to assert MORE dominance if she speaks up
-trying to show ownership of a woman
-(some are) looking for a victim to harrass.
You can't win. If you return or acknowledge the behavior, they may assume you are interested. If you are worried about hurting someone's feelings, you have to reject them and that creates a problem- you do NOT know how someone will react. Sometimes a smile or a nod can be wrongly interpreted as an invitation of interest, even to follow someone. Then if you ask them not to follow, you are then viewed as a "tease".
(For you to suggest we smile or nod reinforces the notion that we owe it to men to do so.)
If you ignore or say something negative (god forbid you stand up for yourself), you are called "bitch/prude/stuck up/slut", etc. Some people may turn violent.
No one is suggesting that we as women punch every guy who looks at us or live in paranoia and fear of men. No one is suggesting we not have fun with people (men, women, strangers) or that we never smile at anyone. Many of us have men in our lives that we love.
For you to assume that we shouldn't get "worked up" when someone looks at us and licks their teeth like they are literally going to eat us (it has happened to me, and *gasp*, I am generally a modest dresser), I find that to be absurd.
I was once grossly leered at by a guy in a car when I was walking in the grocery store parking lot. He was so disgusting about it. It made me feel filthy looking at him. I got angry. It was frightening how quickly he started screaming at me after I said he was disgusting. He started calling me names, said "shut the fuck up, bitch".
Don't tell ME this is all harmless and we shouldn't "get worked up" about it. I love the men in my life. I don't look around worrying people will rape me all the time. But you can't explain that feeling I felt when that disgusting piece of shit (and I told him he was one) looked at me like I was on his plate and he was hungry.
He was doing it to hold power over me, and when I rejected his ridiculous advances (was I going to chase down his car?), he showed me he had the capacity to become violent with me. It was daylight so I was a little ballsy. The point is I shouldn't have to worry where I am, what I am wearing, if it's dark, if I am drinking. My body is my own and no one has the right to talk to me like that.
Exactly! As for replying to cat-calls, I have found in the past it unfortunately appears to reinforce the behavior. They start by asserting their power to demean someone. Reacting means the attention is on them, that they have made an impression, which in turn allows them to reaffirm their power by making more vulgar comments. And so on...
Oh how I would love to find a method that makes them stop once and for all...
"The point is, many men, whether they analyze their behavior or not, when cat calling are doing some or all of the following:
-establishing dominance or power over the woman they are cat-calling
-establishing THEIR territory/space/area, letting the woman know she has no ownership of public space, no "right" to be where she is
-attempting to show the woman she is an object, for his or someone else's pleasure
-viewing a woman's body as public property
-attempting to degrade/shame a woman
-looking for a fight/reaction, possibly so as to assert MORE dominance if she speaks up
-trying to show ownership of a woman
-(some are) looking for a victim to harrass."
See, I doubt that this is true in most cases, whether it's on a subconscious level or not. I think in most cases it's either good natured or a case of ill manners and poor impulse control. I really don't believe the average cat-caller is trying to keep women down or put them in their place. Perhaps I am wrong, but I really don't think they put that much, or any, thought into it.
"You can't win. If you return or acknowledge the behavior, they may assume you are interested. If you are worried about hurting someone's feelings, you have to reject them and that creates a problem- you do NOT know how someone will react. Sometimes a smile or a nod can be wrongly interpreted as an invitation of interest, even to follow someone. Then if you ask them not to follow, you are then viewed as a "tease".
(For you to suggest we smile or nod reinforces the notion that we owe it to men to do so.)"
First of all, I wasn't suggesting that women smile or nod, I was asking if women felt threatened by men smiling or nodding at them. I didn't know what the lines were, so I was asking.
I don't think women owe men anything. Or vice versa. But I do think we all owe each other a bit of common courtesy and general friendliness.
But when it comes to unwanted attention, I think ignoring it is always the best way to go, except in cases of aggressive behavior, of course.
"For you to assume that we shouldn't get "worked up" when someone looks at us and licks their teeth like they are literally going to eat us (it has happened to me, and *gasp*, I am generally a modest dresser), I find that to be absurd.
I was once grossly leered at by a guy in a car when I was walking in the grocery store parking lot. He was so disgusting about it. It made me feel filthy looking at him. I got angry. It was frightening how quickly he started screaming at me after I said he was disgusting. He started calling me names, said "shut the fuck up, bitch".
Don't tell ME this is all harmless and we shouldn't "get worked up" about it. I love the men in my life. I don't look around worrying people will rape me all the time. But you can't explain that feeling I felt when that disgusting piece of shit (and I told him he was one) looked at me like I was on his plate and he was hungry."
See, now, here I think that you sort of elevated the situation by calling him a disgusting piece of shit. Perhaps he was. Perhaps he has a very low iq and no idea how to behave in public. But I think it's best to get away from these people as quickly as possible and not escalate the situation by initiating verbal attacks.
Again, I'm not saying he was not a disgusting piece of shit. I'm just suggesting that you telling him that maybe wasn't as good an idea as just proceeding as quickly as possible to the safety of the store.
He was doing it to hold power over me, and when I rejected his ridiculous advances (was I going to chase down his car?), he showed me he had the capacity to become violent with me. It was daylight so I was a little ballsy. The point is I shouldn't have to worry where I am, what I am wearing, if it's dark, if I am drinking. My body is my own and no one has the right to talk to me like that.
Okay, see here is the part where I strongly disagree. Maybe in some utopian world you shouldn't have to worry about your personal safety. But here on earth you do. I believe that we all owe it to ourselves to take as much care as we can when it comes to our personal safety. Especially when it comes to the drinking part. You simply cannot properly judge situations or adequately protect yourself when you're out and about drinking. Your body IS your own. And YOU more than anyone else are responsible for its care and keeping.
I would never say that if a woman is assaulted she is to blame. But there is a lot we can do to keep ourselves safe that for some reason we just don't want to talk about.
I personally feel very empowered by the knowledge that to whatever extent, I have a hand in my own safety.
Enough enough enough. You've made your point, and people have responded. Time to stop replying to every comment on this thread.
Oh that POOR MAN. I "initiated" a verbal attack after he leered at me, I told him not to, and after he called me misogynistic names. You really are thick! You really do not get that men are responsible for not treating women poorly indoors or in public? It's a pretty simple concept.
"But there is a lot we can do to keep ourselves safe that for some reason we just don't want to talk about."
...Like not leave the house without a man? How far are we going here? Every reaction you can give to a cat-call has a possibility to lead to harassment. Any way you dress gets a cat-caller. Only going out in the day still leads to cat-calling and following. Going out with another female means twice the females to cat-call. Being in public doesn't help, as pow3rful explained with her story. What am I doing wrong here? Did I miss something?
This morning someone submitted this story to my street harassment blog, which I think illustrates why a "hey gorgeous" or "hey beautiful" can be threatening to women. You do not know if the harasser will escalate from there!
Also, yesterday one of my co-workers told me how over the weekend when she was riding the metro in DC in the early evening, a guy told her how beautiful she was and she just smiled to acknowledge him but not encourage him further. When it was her stop, he made a big deal about clearing everyone out of her way for her to get off, got off with her even though it wasn't his stop, grabbed her arm, pushed her up against the wall of the subway station and demanded that she put his phone number in her phone and call him. she put his number in - as he continued to hold her arm - and he then left her alone. (oh and there were people around but no one helped her.)