So true....ladies.
You know an article is going to be blogging gold when it starts off like this:
As our society abandons the conservative values that make women into ladies, women with grace and dignity have become an endangered species--especially on today's college campuses. The kind of woman who inspired Tom Jones' song "She's a Lady" has become an antiquated figure from America's past.
Oh yes, Eva Lorraine Molina at Townhall wants us to know that she's no liberal whorebag - and she wishes conservative women would stop acting like us sex-crazed feminists, too!
The feminist movement's war on conservatism in America has killed chivalry and trained too many women to think and act like men. As a result, many young conservative women do not know what it means to be a lady.
But don't worry, Molina is here to tell us exactly what being a "lady" entails.
A lady does not tell dirty jokes along with men and she does not tolerate men telling dirty jokes in her presence. She does not swear, and she is not considered "one of the guys." In spite of new fashion trends, a lady always dresses appropriately, leaving a lot to the imagination. When at a social gathering, a lady does not do things she will regret the next day. Above all, a lady is well-mannered, dignified, gracious, and kind.
Sounds fun. But what's particularly telling about Molina's idealized notion of being a "lady" is that it's directly related to whether or not men will find you marriageable - since getting hitched is the ultimate goal of all ladies, of course.
I have heard many of my male peers place women into three categories: "the ones to mess around with, the ones to date, and the ones to marry." Though this is a rather crude way of categorizing women, it shows that men do recognize and value the qualities that make a woman a lady.
No, it shows that your guy friends are assholes. Big ones.
Ladies are the kind of women that men can take home to Mom and Dad and that most men want to marry. Being considered "marriage material" is an indicator that a woman is to be respected; most men who deem a woman as such treat her with the utmost respect. For men, ladies are at the top of the female totem pole, and conservative women need to take pride in the fact that they are worthy of time, love, and commitment.
Article-skewering aside, this just made me sad. Too many women think that their worth is completely based on what guys feel about them - whether or not they're considered fuckable, dateable, marriageable, etc, makes a lot of women feel valuable. It's all bullshit. And while I feel compassion for Molina - because it can't be fun to think of yourself that way - it irritates me to no end when women perpetuate this crap. Though I suppose I shouldn't be shocked, considering Molina is an intern with the anti-feminist, pro-hope chest, anti-rectum-misuse (seriously) Clare Boothe Luce Policy Institute.
So I think I'll continue to curse, tell dirty jokes, try things that I may regret and keep company with women who do the same. Because at the end of the day, me and my ladies know that all people are deserving of respect - not just the ones who fall in line with antiquated sexist stereotypes.
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I tell dirty jokes, curse like a drunken sailor on leave, and wear whatever I want to. I spit, get sweaty and dirty, love sex, and have, at times, been "one of the guys."
I'm also every inch a lady. No one I've dated has ever had a problem taking me home to meet the parents. Most guys probably don't find me "marriage-able" right now, but that's because I'm already married.
Suck it, Molina. I'm who I want to be and (SHOCK) most people actually like me for it.
So I live pretty close to an evangelical college and occasionally I run into students from said college at local restaurants and such. The other day one of the guys from this school approached me in a coffee shop to compliment my "ladylike" manners (he was easy to identify because he was wearing a T-shirt with a giant cross on the back and the school's logo on the front). Even though he was perfectly polite, I was totally creeped out. I had this overwhelming urge to blurt out, "I am not one of your kind!"
Then again, I have no problem when my friends or family refer to me as a lady. It only bothers me when the person labeling me as "ladylike" has a different definition of what a lady is than I do.
This whole idea of men separating women into categories "girlfriend material, hook-up material, wife material" continues to baffle and sicken me. I have never been friends with someone like this, but I have heard of people behaving this way. It's ridiculous.
Sorry, Molina, I'm not interesting in dating or marrying any man who has those ideas in his head. Luckily, most guys I know don't think that way. You should try getting out of your narrow worldview.
I don't know where you live, because I've never met a guy who didn't think of women this way.
Well that sucks for the men you know katemoore. I should hope that most people have some acquaintances who insist on categorizing others and some who don't.
Not that my personal experience is representative, but I do know quite a few men who categorize women (I also know women who do the same thing but apply different standards) but usually when pressed to explain their methods, the categories aren't as fixed as Molina suggests. I'm also lucky enough to know plenty of people who don't see the point in applying arbitrary labels to others.
Yeah - MOST of the guys I know (whether friends or not) have some sort of attitude like that - even if they don't come out and say it exactly like that... I mean - I've never heard guys break it down like that out loud but by their general atittudes when they deal with women who present themselves in certain ways... Like I've heard certain guys say things like, "those typse of girls are only good for fucking." - which basically is saying the same thing, but not going into as much detail.
Perhaps this is just telling us that men want women who are multi faceted and actually human beings. They want someone who is sex positive ('fuckable'), they want someone who is fun ('dateable'), and they want someone who they can trust and share their life with ('marry-able').
So if we could quit with all this stereotype bull shit and stop the whore/virgin complex we could just be human beings who fall in love with other human beings.
I'm proud to be very un-ladylike. I am a REAL woman.
So people who are "ladylike" aren't real women?
I never said that.
You implied it. Saying "I'm not X. I'm a REAL woman" or "I'm Y. I'm a REAL woman" implies that people who are Y are real women and people who are X aren't. If you have the statements that close to each other, people are going to assume they follow each other.
this is really a stretch. DeafBrownTrash did not say she was the ONLY kind of real woman. I took it to mean that she's a real woman, too - like there are ALL kinds of real women.
Oh, come on. That's just ridiculous. Consider the following statement:
"I'm proud that I don't pay attention to ads. I'm a REAL consumer."
Now, which of the following is the most logical, likely way to continue the thought:
"...unlike all those other fake consumers."
Or:
"...but consumers who don't are OK too."
This reminds me of a conversation I had with some friends not too long ago. We were talking about being single, dating, and what we were looking for. One of my male friends made the statement that he was looking for a 'classy lady'. It took a while to get what he meant by 'classy'. He was using the term to mean someone who is sexually monagamous. I thought it was interesting that everyone had a different definition of 'classy lady'.
So men with virgin/whore complexes won't want to marry me (and cheat on me with the "whores"). I consider that a WIN.
I agree... I wouldn't want to marry or date a loser who won't treat me as an equal.
i sure hope some of those categories overlap...
HOLY SHIT. And here I thought being well-mannered, gracious, and kind were just polite things to be. I have a lot of well-mannered, gracious, and kind men to notify. Can't have people who aren't ladies acting well-mannered, gracious, and kind. It seems it would confuse people just way too much if well-mannered, gracious, and kind were just good traits for people to aspire to in general.
"Being considered "marriage material" is an indicator that a woman is to be respected"
So, I suppose lesbians cannot ever be respected. You know, because people like her don't allow them to get married.
I suppose it also means that gay men are incapable of respecting women because they aren't looking to marry them. It looks like the only time to respect women is when you're trying to get into their virginal pants. Fancy that.
Of course lesbians are not respectable. We all know that they made the CHOICE to not marry men.
/snark
I don't (usually) tell dirty jokes, I very rarely swear. I'm way too shy to ever do anything I'd regret the next day at a party, and always say please and thank you. And yet I've never had a boyfriend? How could any guy NOT want to sweep me off to meet his parents?
Interesting being a lady apparently includes cattily talking about other women behind their backs. Nice, Molina.
I always wonder about women who complain about the death of chivalry. It's all stuff men do FOR women. Women, under notions of chivalry, aren't expected to then turn around and do polite things for men. Which I guess is great, if you're narcissistic and self-centered and want the world to revolve around you without giving anything back.
blockquote>Women, under notions of chivalry, aren't expected to then turn around and do polite things for men.
That's where you're wrong. It's considered "polite" to keep your opinions to yourself and let the man make important decisions for you. It's considered "polite" to subsume ones self to your man. That's why you hear men complain about the death of "chivalry." The "death of chivalry" coincided with the death of male dominance.
Oh I fucked that up real nice.
/unladylike
Hee hee, that one got a chuckle out of me.
In response to your actual reply, I'm trying to think if I've ever heard men complaining about the death of chivalry. I've usually heard the complaint come from women when their date doesn't open the car door for them, when a man doesn't give up his seat on the bus for them, etc. In other words, when a man doesn't behave in some way toward her for the simple fact that she is a woman and deserves to be treated like a spechul sparkly snowflake. Although it would make sense that a man complaining about it would be doing so from a position of mourning the loss of male dominance.
I've read articles like this one, written by men. Basically - the reason men aren't nice to you anymore is because of feminism! Aren't you sorry now!
I, for one, am not, because I recognize those "manners" as false and sexist and one-directional. And women who complain about the death of chivalry are loony. The world would be a better place if all people treated all other people with consideration, regardless of sex.
So true. I do not want to be treated like a doll or something on a pedestal that is incapable of opening a door or pulling out a chair (esp. since my dress doesn't impede upon such things). I would much rather be with someone who opens the car door b/c they believe that the car owner should open or at least unlock passenger doors first and would do the same for males, who holds the door for whoever is coming behind them or carrying something, etc.
I want to be treated like a human being not a pet. If someone ever pulled out a chair for me and then became upset when I returned the favor or wouldn't think of doing such a thing for another male, that would be the end of it right there. Respect me by treating me as a person, not with BS displays of chivalry that no longer even serve a practical purpose other than the reinforcing of gender norms.
Well, I like the fact that my (younger) husband always opens the doors for me whether it be at a restaurant or a car. It just makes me feel special and I like feeling like I'm special to my significant other. I feel anything but insulted when any man opens a door for me and I'm proud when we're out and my husband holds the door for other women,too. And no, we don't let the door shut on men, we exhibit common courtesy and hold a door or offer a hand to anyone who needs it. I like for my romantic relationship to feel a little bit different than my platonic relationships and not just because we're having sex. Some existing courting rituals highlight the distinction . I'm not putting down anyone who doesn't want that or like that and I don't feel entitled to have every male open every door for me. My relationship is not stereotypical and traditional in many ways (I'm older, more educated, make more money, work more than him, we don't want children, have different last names)but in others we are status quo (married, live in a big house, work 'normal' jobs). I think individuals can pick and choose which 'traditions' they want to follow while discarding those they don't.
And this woman Molina is a straight up twat. She walks a fine line, vaguely indicating that women who don't 'deserve' mans' respect are deserving of abuse, rape, abandonment, whatever. It's hardly news that feminism gets blamed for anything people don't like.
So true, people defiantly need to decide what they want in a relationship and I didn't mean to diss those who do enjoy shows of chivalry or any other behaviors considered traditional. What I get enraged about are people like this who, as you said, seem to advocate the idea that any women who do not fit the traditional construction of the term lady are not worthy of respect.
I also get weirded out when in situations that are hard to get out of or speak out in for me (like getting a hair cut or even worst braids b/c they take hours) and someone starts waxing on about how I am suppose to want that or act this way,blah blah blah. Unfortunately, I am quite too shy too say anything and generally hate confrontation (esp. w/ppl wielding razors over my head).
I'm a Lady - I try to be gracious and polite to others, understand the basic etiquette in social situations (etiquette being a set of guidelines for making others feel welcome and comfortable) and work to give back to my community. I'm also a feminist, a social liberal, a pro-choice advocate and occasional user of some salty language.
Most of the older ladies I know are strong-willed, smart and fiesty women in the steel magnolia mold. Being a lady means not being a wishy washy little girl. It means doing what is right, and doing things for others with an open heart.
So yes, I'm a feminist, progressive, intelligent and fierce lady. And I own the word.
Oh, and here are some examples of people I consider ladies: Eleanor Roosevelt, Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem, Jane Austen, Margaret Sanger, Bella Abzug, Angela Davis, Rosa Parks, Amelia Earhart, Alice Paul....basically anyone who was smart, driven and worked for change with great aplomb.
Being a lady means not telling "dirty jokes", and not tolerating men's "dirty jokes"? So I guess then a feminist who breaks up a party of obscene, misogynist joke-telling is actually being a fine lady? I always thought you were a bitch when you spoiled the boys' fun...
It's all stuff men do FOR women. Women, under notions of chivalry, aren't expected to then turn around and do polite things for men. Which I guess is great, if you're narcissistic and self-centered and want the world to revolve around you without giving anything back.
If you've read He's Just Not That Into You or any of the other vapid dating advice books it's spawned, then you'll know that this is exactly what they advocate. Men are supposed to practically trip over themselves to please you while you coyly ignore them and pat yourself on the back for being such an awesome, foxy specimen.
And the people who take this stuff seriously wonder why their relationships are troubled...
Being a lady sounds boring. I think I'll keep telling dirty jokes, listening to guys telling dirty jokes, acting like 'one of the boys', wearing clothing that doesn't leave everything to the imagination, and spending time with my husband who thinks that's all perfectly marriagable material.
"Acting like one of the boys" is an anti-feminist phrase. It assumes that boys and girls act in separate, oppositional ways. It makes me cringe to see feminists using it as a sort of compliment to elevate themselves above other women.
It's a compliment? I always thought it was just an insult, because frankly, while I'd probably fit the definition, I don't really think of myself that way. I've always tended to hang out with male-heavy or mixed crowds, and honestly it usually takes me a while to realize that I'm the only girl in the room. I'm not one of the guys, I'm just...me.
Sorry, wasn't trying to call you out specifically!
I've only ever heard it used in a complimentary way. Usually by women who consider themselves exceptional among women. Or it's used the way it's used in this article: women are being scolded for being uppity. We're not meant to act above our station in life (like one of the boys).
Well, I consider how it's used in this article to be meant as an insult. It makes it sound like us females who have male friends are abandoning our femininity in favour of being more masculine, or that women can't/shouldn't be able to be comfortable around men. Hanging around guys doesn't make me less of a woman anymore than hanging with a lesbian would make me less straight.
And no worries, I knew you weren't responding to me specifically :)
"I want to be the girl your parents will use as a bad example of a lady" -Staceyann Chin
That's all I have to say about this ridiculous article.
Haha, I was thinking of that quote too. I love her!
Haha, I was thinking of that quote too. I love her!
Haha, I was thinking of that quote too. I love her!
I love when Sarah Haskins uses the word "lady"
From the birth control Target Women: "But I am just a lady with a simple lady mind."
lol.
"I want to be the girl your parents will use as a bad example of a lady" -Staceyann Chin
That's all I have to say about this ridiculous article.
I LOVE TOM JONES!!!
As a sidenote, I love Demetri Martin's take on the word "ladies." Every time I hear the word now I always think of it in the creepy way. He's so right!
Another way to sound really creepy is to say "I like that in a woman" after delivering any compliment. Try it! It's fun!
"Too many women think that their worth is completely based on what guys feel about them - whether or not they're considered fuckable, dateable, marriageable, etc, makes a lot of women feel valuable"
I get so frustrated from this rhetoric I could quite literally cry, or more likely erupt into a fit of screams. There is just so much wrong with it. Not only trying to find one's self worth only in what others think of you, but the notion that some men only "respect" certain types of women is problematic to begin with. In reality, the "respect" shown women who "know their place and act like a lady" can hardly be called respect, and it sure is hell isn't respect for the woman as a person, but rather as property. And in my opinion, when people start talking about what types of women are deserving of respect, it is usually an indicator that they don't actually respect any women, only a certain idea of womanhood and those women who try to fit into it, and they most certainly do not respect women intellectually and professionally. It ties into the argument about dress a lot, the idea that if a woman covers up enough she'll basically be respected for her mind, when in my experience someone starts talking like that they are about to embark on the BS train. And it doesn't stop there, nope. Not only must women dress a certain way in order to be respected, they must also act a certain way, know a woman's place, be the company of a man or at least have one around to "protect" her, etc. and all this so women can be "protected" and "respected."
Now that that rant is over.
I curse, occasionally go to hookah bars, not a big dirty joke teller but I make a lot of double etendres, drink, smoke cigars occasionally, and sometimes discuss women I find attractive with men. But, I do wear skirts and when discussing women or what I find attractive I call the guys out when I feel they are saying something out of line and demeaning. As far as kindness I'm waiting to get more tats until I can donate blood.
So am I a lady? Or do the tattoos and being pansexual cancel out the skirt wearing and calling guys out for certain comments?
See, I actually think there's some value in this idea of being a "lady." Ignoring fashion trends, disliking "dirty jokes" (which are more often than not sexist and/or immature), not doing things they'll regret the next day, being well-mannered, gracious, dignified, kind. I aspire to all of these things.
BUT IT'S NOT JUST FOR WOMEN.
Seriously. THAT is the problem here. Men get to be jackity-ass cockbags and nobody cares, because they're men and that's OK! If anyone needs to be "ladylike," it's them, because misogyny is among the LEAST well-mannered, gracious, dignified and kind attitudes one can possess.
I also notice nobody's commented on the classist elements of this. I mean, they're right there in the word! "Lady," "classy," etc.
yes, and those who do NOT aspire to be "ladylike" such as you, Kate, aren't below you, either.
Tell me where exactly I said that, because I didn't. Although I would have real personal problems with someone who didn't aspire to be gracious or kind. (Well-mannered and dignified I can take or leave.)
One thing Ms. Eva Lorraine Molina may not be aware of. Men who
consider at least 95% of women on planet earth to be in the first category. At least those who aren't too old to be out of consideration for the list from the get go.
"When at a social gathering, a lady does not do things she will regret the next day."
I can only assume this refers to date rape, in which case Molina is claiming that the woman has all the agency and power to prevent being raped. To boot, being date-raped kicks you out of the "marriageability" category.
Why should I be shocked?
I don't think that is necessarily an allusion to date-rape. I have done plenty of things at a social gathering that I have regretted the next day and they had nothing to do with rape. Like drinking so much that I ended up crouched over a toilet for the rest of the night (a fairly common mistake, I think)... or drinking so much that I felt justified in picking a fight with a nun (Not so common. And yes, seriously).
LOL, I know you didn't mean it to be funny, but the mental image of someone picking a fight with a nun made me laugh. Ah, yes, drunken brawling--one definitely regrets that the next day!
The reason my mind jumped to date rape is that conservatives 1) frequently denigrate date rape as "not real" rape; and 2) blame women for putting themselves in the situation to "get raped" by drinking too much, hanging out with the wrong crowd, etc.
You're right--one can regret a ton of things (making a faux pas, offending someone, etc) at a social gathering, but especially given the sex-focused nature of the article, I think it's a veiled reference to date rape.
I see where you're coming from VickyinSeattle. Molina's argument is obviously pretty heavily centered upon sexual choices which is disgusting. However, I want to give her the benefit of the doubt on that one point. Since she says telling dirty jokes is un-ladylike I'm pretty sure she considers drinking to be un-ladylike as well. Conservatives do make a habit of victim blaming to be sure. But I think that going to the most extreme end of an argument without considering that she could have meant something else isn't really conducive to dialogue. I live in a conservative area and usually what I assume my conservative peers believe is worse than what they actually believe so I try to temper my reactions to stuff like this.
And the nun thing was meant to be a little funny... even though I was terribly embarrassed.
I can't help but be reminded of Cynthia Heimel:
"Women are not ladies. The term connotes females who are simultaneously put on a pedestal and patronised. A lady is softer and weaker and more dependent than a man. Implicit in the definition is that a man must defer to her, take care of her, because she's not competent to do things on her own.
A lady would never fuck up her nails fixing a carburetor, a lady doesn't swear like a longshoreman during childbirth, a lady doesn't like to give head. At least that's what our mothers told us when we were growing up. They had a whole litany of things that "ladies", which we were to become, were not allowed to do:
"A lady always sits quietly with her hands in her lap."
"A lady keeps her hair nicely combed and out of her eyes."
"A lady keeps her knees together at all times."
I despise this word! Call me a lady and i feel like I'm wearing a white dress and can't go splashing through mud puddles."
One of the most 'well-mannered, dignified, gracious, and kind' people I know is my Dad.
Okay, he's not always dignified, what with my entire family being a bit goofy. But you get my point.
Love Demetri. Must see Taking Woodstock. Also, you should check out his bit about date rapists. Funny.
I'd have never even talked to my wife if she were one of these wilting violets. I prefer that she will drink, curse and cheer the Longhorns next to me at the bar on gameday. She is one of the "guys" because I don't gender segregate my friends.
Molina's statement:
Being considered "marriage material" is an indicator that a woman is to be respected
unfortunately supports very dangerous rationalizations about what a man can do when a woman is NOT to be respected. If certain behavior is wrong when done to a lady it is wrong when done to any woman.
"the ones to mess around with, the ones to date, and the ones to marry."
Interestingly, I'm pretty sure my boyfriend considers me a combination of all three. But then again, conservatives like Molina don't believe it's possible for a woman to be a multi-faceted individual with complex needs, wants, and desires. You know, like a man.
I LOVE SARAH HASKINS!!!
Ha well my boyfriend must not have gotten the memo about only bringing ladies home to meet the parents. I curse a lot and tell dirty jokes and HAVE once or twice been considered one of the guys.
I don't like sitting quietly with my hands in my lap.
At the university where I intern at, there is a sign in the women's bathroom that says, word for word:
"THIS IS A LADIES' ROOM! So please behave like a lady and implement the following into your bathroom routine:
-no spitting on the floor
-wash your hands after using the restroom (with soap!!!)
"
Sheesh. I wonder what it says in the men's restroom--this is a men's room, behave like a man?!! Or worse--is there even a sign like this in there at all...
haha, behave like a man - "sling your shit around the bathroom and piss on the floor!" (that's sarcasm)
The funny thing is - I remember in highschool, some girl (never found out who) would smear her poop all over the walls... I don't think that ever happened in the mens' room.