What We Missed
Sharon Lerner at The Nation tells us Why Women Need Healthcare Reform
BeckySharper takes on alcohol and antifeminism.
More feminist analysis on facials. (I know, shocking that it's such a hot topic.)
How rapper Roxanne Shante got Warner music to pay for her PhD.
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Hurray, you posted that last one!
I really liked it and would love to see a breakdown done of its implications by someone better-versed in hip hop culture than I.
Oh how embarrassing. I read facials and thought of the spa day kind of facial.
Me too! Haha.
But what an interesting article. It makes me think--is modern feminism more about changing the context of our historically patriarchal lifestyle than it is about outrightly rejecting the "patriarchy"?
Like the author said, feminists get married, even though the practice is riddled in hundreds of years of mysoginic cultivation. But feminists may choose to get married "progressively"--not changing their last names, sharing housework, etc. So instead of doing away with the historically patriarchal institution of marriage, we have taken it, and re-thought the motivations behind the traditions.
It seems a little depressing to me that all feminists can do is reclaim things, putting new layers of paint on the wall over old ones, instead of tearing down the whole wall all together. But maybe that's how society and culture changes--by changing contexts, meanings, and evolving symbols, not by replacing one set with another.
Something to think about. (Wow I can't believe I got all of that out from an article about sperm facials..!)
Me three, I was about to get outraged over the thought of somebody coming against my spa day.
I don't think changing the context is anything to scoff at. I grew up never recognizing marriage as a patriarchal institution because my parents marriage is very equal. My mom kept her maiden name, they didn't have a huge wedding, no white dress, etc. My mom insists that she wasn't trying to make a feminist statement (even though I think some family and friends assumed that she was). She and my dad just couldn't afford a big wedding and the whole process seemed sort of silly to them anyhow.
So now I've grown up with a positive view on marriage and I know it doesn't have to be anti-feminist. In fact, it didn't even occur to me that it might be until a few years ago. So because my parents changed the context for me, I am able to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of marriage and decide whether getting married is the right decision for me absent any religious/patriarchal weirdness. I don't see them changing the context as a reduction by any means. And in a lot of ways they did reject the patriarchy just by changing the context.
Anyway... I just don't see facials as that big of a deal. It seems like a stretch to link them to the marriage argument. And that's not a criticism of your comment by the way... it's directed at the original article.
I find it really interesting that the first time I read the article, I thought it said "Semen Facials Are Like Marriage," but it actually says "Semen Facials Are Like Weddings."
Probably because even though we all know it’s sexist as fuck, weddings—like facial ejaculation—still make some people happy.
But that doesn’t mean we should forget about the sexist tropes that sometimes inform our happiness (and our sex lives).
I think the point here is important: that we should examine what we consider acceptable actions for ourselves. Why does a girl want to get walked down the aisle by her father? Is it for "tradition", does she have a good relationship with him, etc?
OR Why does one hold a particular kink? Is it rooted in self-shaming or not?
As enlightened feminists, if we partake in actions that may not squash the patriarchy, I think we should ensure that we have fully examined those actions (individually, i.e. self reflection) before concluding "that's just how it is".
"OR Why does one hold a particular kink? Is it rooted in self-shaming or not?"
Yes. This is the point I take away from the article, and it's one that people often like to dance around with "I like it! So what?" Mind you, we don't have to examine all our likes and dislikes if we don't choose to (often some pretty unpleasant stuff surfaces); I just hope that thinking feminists at least try.
But maybe that's how society and culture changes--by changing contexts, meanings, and evolving symbols, not by replacing one set with another.
I think that's exactly how it works - look all the way back to when Christians turned Pagan religions and symbolism into Christian ones in order to get people to convert. It's definitely a method that's been tried and proven to work.
And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. If anything, doing so today as feminists gets us thinking about what these things mean to us, which parts are important and which aren't, and lets us infuse them with our own individuality.
I covered the Roxanne Shante story yesterday, and posted some of her (awesome!) music today (if anyone is interested.) She is a super talented and impressive woman and I'm glad to see her get some love here.
Wait... facials are like marriage? What?
You know I think there are many people who are in sexual relationships where the dominant/submissive roles change frequently (and in this case I'm referring specifically to non-BDSM interactions). So to say that facials are anti-feminist (just like marriage... which I don't think is inherently anti-feminist either by the way) assumes that whatever sex is going on is totally stagnant. Sometimes women submit, sometimes men submit. As long as it's safe and everyone is having a good time, what's the big deal?
Agreed. I hate the "facials aren't REALLY demeaning, so they're okay" thing.
Maybe they aren't for some people, but for a lot of us they're meant to be degrading as fuck, and that's why they're sexy. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Degrading sexual acts are sexy? Wow I must have lived a very sheltered life, because to me, that thought process can't even register in my brain.
I'm not going to put words into nattles_thing's mouth but I think what she was trying to say (and at the very least what I was trying to say in the original comment) is that some people do find facials sexy because they're degrading.
What bothered me about the article (and about your comment) is that there seems to be some judgment directed toward women who enjoy being submissive in sexual relationships sometimes. There's a wide range to what turns people on and everyone should be able to enjoy having the kind of sex they want to have without being scrutinized for it.
"I'm not going to put words into nattles_thing's mouth but I think what she was trying to say (and at the very least what I was trying to say in the original comment) is that some people do find facials sexy because they're degrading."
Well... duh. Thats pretty much exactly what was said.
"What bothered me about the article (and about your comment) is that there seems to be some judgment directed toward women who enjoy being submissive in sexual relationships sometimes. There's a wide range to what turns people on and everyone should be able to enjoy having the kind of sex they want to have without being scrutinized for it."
You are free to think that facial are sexy, and I am free to think they are bizarre and unsexy as hell.
For the record, I never said that I personally find facials sexy. I actually have no strong feelings about them either way.
And yes, you are totally free to find them unsexy. That said, I think classifying any sort of sexual behavior as "bizarre" is a slippery slope. Saying it doesn't do it for you and leaving it at that is one thing but saying something that other people enjoy is bizarre is pushing it a little.
"For the record, I never said that I personally find facials sexy. I actually have no strong feelings about them either way."
I was refering to the universal 'you'. My bad, I wasn't clear.
"Saying it doesn't do it for you and leaving it at that is one thing but saying something that other people enjoy is bizarre is pushing it a little."
I thought that was my original comment.
I've already covered this but it was the tone of your original comment that led me to believe you disapproved. In your subsequent comments you elaborated on it and went so far as to refer to facials as being "bizarre". So what am I supposed to assume?
I really don't enjoy getting this far into the nitty gritty of a thread. We can play the "but you said this" game all day and it won't get us anywhere. If we're on the same page there's no reason to push it any further.
Just because you don't personally enjoy something doesn't mean that thing is bad. No one is forcing you do do it. And if someone is he's an asshole and he'd be an asshole without facials.
I'm a dominatrix with internet access. If you think facials are bizarre, I could tell you about some of the things I've seen and you'd probably change your mind. (All joking aside, I think it's very unhealthy to go around labeling sexual practices as completely insane. It smacks of vanilla privilege.)
Srsly? You are using a word to describe being on the winning side of centuries of institutionalized oppression to describe sexual taste? I do believe "privilege" has just jumped the shark. Can we go back to using it for analysis of societal power structures and stop using it for every damn preference that some people have and some people don't?
http://renegadeevolution.blogspot.com/2008/06/vanilla-privilege.html
At times I've thought that there should be a better word for the same concept, but I really don't think that's what you're getting at. And just because I use the same word doesn't mean I think that all privileges are created equal.
I never said that it was bad. I never said people couldn't do it if they wanted to. Consenting adults can do whatever they want to each other. Does every comment need to have a huge disclaimer saying. "While I personally do not like (X) I believe that every human being has the right to do (X)." Oh please. I gave a simple opinion. I think these "facials" are fuckin weird. Don't like it? tough shit. I'm sure I do plenty of things you would find batshit insane too. I get called weird all the time and I don't cry about it.
@nikki#2
No one is "crying" about anything.
But I have to ask what exactly you were contributing to the thread if you have no problem with facials so long as they're consenting? The tone in your original comment came across as condescending so of course nattles_thing and I fired back. These comments are a place for discussion and our views differed from yours so we expressed that. No one here is going to tell you what to think. Please chill.
Yes, you're allowed to express your opinion.
But I would hope that on a feminist forum, if you have a problem with some sexual act, you would at least frame it in a constructive way ("I find facials weird because they seem to be about men humiliating women" or "I find facials weird because they seem like they would be necessarily unpleasant or unpleasurable for the woman") rather than just labeling other people's sexual behavior "weird" or "gross."
Yes, discussing the dynamics of sexual activity has a place in a feminist forum. But just labeling other people's preferences "weird" or "gross" just because it's not your thing is unfeminist.
yes, you are. I personally don't like facials, but I like some other forms of submission. but you know what-the entire reason they can be sexy is because my partner and I decide together what will be fun for both of US, not you. context, and relationship negotiation matter.
I'm not going to put words into nattles_thing's mouth but I think what she was trying to say (and at the very least what I was trying to say in the original comment) is that some people do find facials sexy because they're degrading.
What bothered me about the article (and about your comment) is that there seems to be some judgment directed toward women who enjoy being submissive in sexual relationships sometimes. There's a wide range to what turns people on and everyone should be able to enjoy having the kind of sex they want to have without being scrutinized for it.
Eww, gawd I know! I seriously doubt any guy is truly expressing love for the woman by spraying his spermies all over her face. It doesnt seem like a sexual idea that would pop into his head if it hadnt been suggested by all the porn. Its unoriginal and inauthentic. And just nasty as hell! Jeez how do you get that crap off your face? And would any of these guys allow a woman to spary her female ejaculate all over him? If that was the case then you'd see more of it in porn.
Wow, judgmental much?
I'm definitely not into "facials" myself, but since I do have a few little kinks of my own, I will refrain from passing judgment on any non-dangerous sexual acts that occur between two consenting adults. And here's a fun little factoid: a good friend of mine (who is without a doubt the most feminist-y feminist I know) once told me that she and her ex used to do the facial thing, and they both found it very enjoyable. To each his or her own...
I'm not being judgemental, I'm expressing my opinion of it. I'm never doing that. And yeah, my opinion is that its nasty.
" a good friend of mine (who is without a doubt the most feminist-y feminist I know) once told me that she and her ex used to do the facial thing, and they both found it very enjoyable"
Did you even read the article? Because that was what was discussed; feminists claiming it snot degrading for their own convenience. Just because youre feminist doesnt NOT make it misogynistic.
Ummm... I didn't know sex always had to be about expressing love. Sometimes it's just about getting off even if it is with a person you love.
As far as washing semen off, I'm pretty sure a damp washcloth would do the trick. It isn't like it's radioactive goo. I don't know if many men are into getting female ejaculate on their face but I assume there are at least a few. Since not all women can ejaculate, it isn't as fetishized. I will give you that. However, men preform oral sex on women in porn and that usually involves getting a little bit of bodily fluid on their face. Sex is messy. Just sayin'...
" However, men preform oral sex on women in porn and that usually involves getting a little bit of bodily fluid on their face"
Stress the bit part. Its no facial, that is unless her vagina is as big as his head.
Well, I think that really depends on how much lubrication the woman is producing which we know varies from person to person. You're right, it isn't exactly the same but my point is that getting some fluid in the face isn't something that only women experience.
"Ummm... I didn't know sex always had to be about expressing love. Sometimes it's just about getting off even if it is with a person you love. "
Right, but that ends once the dick leaves my vagina. Squirting his semen on me is NOT getting me off or causing me to orgasm. Also as far as STD's are conerned, why would you do this with someone you dont know that well? I mean, I dont want to swim in his vomit, nor I bet does he want to swim in my urine or have it sprayed all over him. So why would I want his semen on me? Just because it comes from his genitals?
Well... I don't really know where to begin...
First of all, I don't think that sex always has to be about reaching orgasm. I do things for my partner that don't necessarily make me come but I get satisfaction out of making him come nonetheless. Second, I noted that I think facials are fine so long as they're safe. I don't know where the stranger thing came from but you're right in pointing out that participating in any sex act with a stranger puts you at risk for contracting an STI. Third, where did the vomit to semen comparison come from? If I don't want vomit on my face (which I certainly don't) then I definitely don't want it in my vag.
Third, where did the vomit to semen comparison come from? If I don't want vomit on my face (which I certainly don't) then I definitely don't want it in my vag.
Seriously.
Vomit and semen, while both being bodily fluids, I don't find comparable.
***TMI Warning for those queasy about fluids***
I seriously doubt any guy is truly expressing love for the woman by spraying his spermies all over her face.
In not so polite conversation, I've found a positive correlation between guys who say it's expressing love and those who will gladly lick your face clean when finished.
Now THAT you don't see in your everyday porn ;)
Congrats on totally grossing me out ...and that's hard to do.
Now, everytime I talk about facials in a deconstruction of misogynistic porn context, I'll have that image pop into my head.
Oh Marc, get over yourself.
Wow - I am rather miffed here. What did I do wrong?
You implied that the action described by Spike The Cat was unpleasant, or an image that grossed you out!
You don't have to be into it... but there's no need to put it down.
You mean that's not what's supposed to happen?
It's called squirting and it's actually a fetish in certain kinds of porn. I hate that I know this.
Your point's important; whatever it might be, however odd it might seem to someone, there's someone else out there turned on by it (and it's available on the internet).
Well, facials have been around long before they were in porn, so while maybe they did the idea from porn, facials are hardly an original idea, been done for a long long time.
On a side note - I feel like the only one who actually EXPECTED an article about semen facials when I read the headline! Perfect example of where my mind is all the time lol.
I expected it to be about semen facials as well. So I guess we're together in the pervert boat.
"Well, facials have been around long before they were in porn"
Considering pornography has been around for centuries if not thousands of years, that's kinda hard to believe (or at least it's hard to believe anyone has data on which came first).
Who cares if its been around a long time? So has misogyny.
It's relevant because you said that people get the idea from porn. And maybe porn has existed for centuries - but until recently how many people actually had access to it and regularly looked at it? I think we all agree that it is alot more common and mainstream now, so my point goes directly towards yours.
Besides, most people wouldn't know much of anything about sex without some sort of pornograpy or erotic material as inspiration. My sex ed classes sure as heck didn't cover most of the stuff that goes on in the bedroom. At best it covers the missionary position.
I don't see how getting ideas from others is a bad thing. We shouldn't have to invent everything ourselves for it to be proper, progress comes from learning from others, in any discipline including sex.
Why is spraying semen all over someone's face more unreasonable or unoriginal that getting on top of them and putting your penis in their vagina? Or, for that matter, expressing your love by giving someone a bunch of chopped up plants?
My old roommate could squirt, and I know she'd given a few facials.
Or, for that matter, expressing your love by giving someone a bunch of chopped up plants?
That made me laugh, thanks for that. I find that practice more confusing than anything else we've discussed in this thread - "Here is a symbol of my love for you. They're DYING PLANTS. In a few days, THEY'LL BE DEAD. I love you."
Actually, my partner has had females ejaculate in his face and finds it sexy. I, on the other hand, am not into it.
And that`s perfectly cool with the both of us. So let not get presumptuous about how people`s kinks work!
I think Jessica should have said what KIND of facials! I'm on the computer at my school and there'e huge text at the top of the article that says SEMEN FACIALS
LMAO
And congrats to Roxanne Roxanne, the person who put Queens Bridge on the map long before Jay Z.
I'm thrilled to see her giving back to her community with that scholarship program. Very nice.
I, too, though I would see an article about actual facials. Boy was my face...red?
Just a lil bit of info about facials and porn: in gay porn the guys jizz on the other guys faces too. It's not just straight porn, and it's not just women getting 'degraded'. I actually like the horrible, gross, degrading, unfeminist jizz on my face every once and a while. I know it probably comes from everyones obsession with porn. But the tingles don't lie and I'm not gonna try and repress them. Does that make me a crappy feminist? Who knows. Can't please everyone.
Yeah but with gay male pron they both have the equipment to do that to each other. Its not only one of them being able to do that to the other so it doesnt really count.
I don't see how that is relevant. With opposite sex partners they basically have ZERO equipment in common, so does that mean opposite sex partners can't do anything to each other???
I don't understand your point at all.
Yeah but with gay male porn they both have the equipment to do that to each other. Its not only one of them being able to do that to the other so it doesnt really count.
Hi all,
There are some pretty nasty comments going up on the article about Roxanne Shante. People are calling the story a myth and claiming that Shante does not have a PhD from Cornell, even though she is listed as one of Cornell's own list of notable alumni. It seems to be a case of people automatically casting doubt on a person of color's success.
Let's go over there and show her some love. :)
As far as the "facials" go I don't pass judgment as long as it's two people in a consensual relationship. Passive, aggressive, whatever--that's their business. As for me if someone gives me a facial one of us is not walking out that room.
I don't mind facials. Honestly I find them hilarious. They tend to happen more on accident than on purpose (though I don't mind either as long as I'm in the mood), because I'm not into swallowing. Generally I prefer it on my chest (easier to clean up/won't get into an eye) but sometimes men aren't great at aiming or preparing at that moment, so it tends to just get all over. We always end up loling, because it just looks so hilarious.
So I don't find them particularly sexy, or degrading, just a byproduct of blow jobs.
And honestly, some men just like seeing their sperm on their lover, and it's not always about degrading the woman so much as, "YAY! We had sex! LOOK! PROOF!" And sometimes it's hot to know that your man just had an orgasm all over you, BECAUSE of you, and the look of pure joy on his face is worth it.
""YAY! We had sex! LOOK! PROOF!" "
Umm, youre a feminist and you cant see the issues involved in that? I think this completely demonstrates exatcly what the article was about; feminists twisting facials around to be positive just for convenience. Yay, I just had sex? If his masculine contruct wasnt so insecure he wouldnt need to do that. Why does he need proof that he just had sex? No matter what form of denial you ring out thats still objectifying. I doubt you do anything like that to him.
Um, what? You don't know my relationship with my partner(s). "Proof" was probably a bad word choice on my part. "Yay, I had sex with crushdmb and she's awesome and that was FUN!" The fact is, my partners don't necessarily give me facials on purpose (as I've mentioned). They just tend to happen when a penis is near your face and you don't like to swallow (the texture gets to me).
And indeed, I DO do that. Generally when I'm on my period. "Look! I'm all over you! Awesome!"
If I squirted, I'd do the same damn thing.
Sex is MESSY, and I think it's perfectly okay to do enjoy the mess of it. For me, my partner's sperm is part of him -- I have no problem with it being on me.
Again, you don't know my partners. I only sleep with feminist men. And women.
The facials article was interesting. I think nothing gets feminists in a bigger tizzy than talking about sex.
First of all, we seem to forget that women can give men facials too. And we also seem completely unable to separate porn from real life interactions. When someone assumes that any sexual act is "inherently demeaning," they are forcing their own sexual morality onto others and shaming anyone who enjoys said sexual act.
Facials are not inherently demeaning. If there is enthusiastic consent and clear communication/negotiation, I don't have a problem with anything two or more people want to do with each other/to each other. It's beyond upsetting when women shame each other and it has got to stop.
Explicit disclosures:
Am I being "inherently demeaned" when my cis male partner gives me a facial after I fuck him with a strap-on? Um, I don't think I am.
I like porn (queer porn and feminist porn, to be exact). I like toys. I'm into some BDSM and erotic asphyxiation and dirty talk and threeways/fourways. I like genderfucking. I like being cum on, by anyone I'm into, not just cis guys. Does that make me a bad feminist? HELL TO THE NO. I'm not vanilla and I don't think I or anyone else should be shamed for it.
100% agreed. Thank you.
Femme said it wonderfully.
Myself: I've been hit in the eye more then once in my lifetime which is not pleasant, but on the flip side what has not been said in this thread is when you are jacking off or blowing a guy to orgasm you are somewhat (or completely) in control when they orgasm (I'm talking timing).
I feel the need to compare that to sitting on his face, and really I'd like to call out those "it's non-feminist-degrading" people.
I don't think I'm the only women out there who has asked politely :) that her man keep his tongue still, not move, etc.
In other words men get of on "humiliation" as well if that's what you want to call it.
I feel the need to compare that to sitting on his face, and really I'd like to call out those "it's non-feminist-degrading" people. I don't think I'm the only women out there who has asked politely that her man keep his tongue still, not move, etc.
Indeed not. :)
I'm also a big flag waver in the "sex is messy" campaign.
TMI note for those squeaked by bodily fluids.
I've never had an intentional facial, I guess you could term it, but I've had semen on my face, breasts, stomach, back, in my hair (which is kind of annoying), etc. Some of this is from when my partner and I get a little silly and start wiping it across one another.
Should I also go into the fact that my partner's had my fluids all over him? Menstrual blood sometimes included in that?
None of this is demeaning with my partner. It's part of our healthy sex life.
I side with femme. on the idea that nothing is inherently demeaning in a sex act so long as that act is committed between enthusiastically consenting parties and there has been clear communication/negotiation.
Does this mean we can't critique the social implications? The way facials or other sex acts are presented in different media?
Of course not.
But, as whatshername wrote in her recent post
...there's this fine line between critique and condemnation that too many anti-sex positive feminists (as I've experienced them) trample all over. Critique is "there are these things that influence us towards accepting this behavior and eroticising it and we should be conscious of that." Whereas what this and so many others I've seen do is "that behavior is degrading, the end!"
And I think that's something we really need to keep in mind.
I agree that facials in porn are often shown in a degrading light.
But for those that think facials in the privacy of our own bedrooms are degrading I'd have to say that their view of sexuality is curved by the media portrayal making them as warped in their thinking as the men who believe real sex is anything like what you see in porn.
Both my husband and myself were semi involved in the BDSM lifestyle as submissives when we met. Neither of us is in anyway submissive in the rest of our lives. It took us a few years really to figure out how to please each other, and more importantly how to find pleasure from exercising control and domination on the other.
Ten years later a direct pattern has emerged. Most of the time our sex life is fairly vanilla but when one of us is under pressure or stressed the other knows that it's time for a "scene". Speaking for myself, and I feel I can speak for my husband it's a way better stress relief then a day at the spa.
I don't care what other people do in their own homes. People can see facials as degrading and get off on that and people can see them as not degrading and get off on that.
I do think that facials do have a very strong degradation and humiliation factor connected with it, and while many people can tease that apart and put a new layer of meaning to it, I have no desire to do so. I can't pull apart the instinct I have of "eww must get this stuff off now" when anything stinky gets on my face. And I don't like stuff getting stuck in my hair as it is. So I'm glad all the men I've been with seem to know that most (or at least a very sizable number) women don't like this act and don't try to pressure me into it.
And yeah that's all I can say...
You have a right to feel that for yourself but you don't have the right to tell others how they feel.
I do have a question though, is riding the face of your man degrading to him? Would it be strange to you that men would find that act an act of submission aka degrading?
I don't see where I told others what they should feel. Please point this out to me.
I have never put my vulva all over the face of one of my partners, but i can totally see why it would be degrading.