For some reason the last couple of days have brought us a lot of fun emails. Here are some snippets from my favorite - in which the emailer keeps insisting that they're a woman. (From experience, I'd say this insistence generally means it's a man writing - but either way, it's irrelevant. Being a woman doesn't make your wack-ass ideas any more credible.)
Honestly, what are you trying to accomplish with this website? I'm a woman, and have been trying to understand what this new wave of feminists are trying to achieve (for instance suffrage in the past). And I just don't see it. All it is women complaining about anything and everything. All you do is bitch and bitch and bitch. Reading this website makes me hate women.
I mean, hate myself! (I also kind of love the irony of someone writing us an email complaining about us complaining.)
Feminists of the past were trying to make change, and they did. You're just making the majority of the population hate you and not take you seriously. Also you should learn that, honey, stereotypes are based on fact. There are some things that guys do better than chicks and vice versa. Deal with it.
Yeah, honey! For example, us chicks are awesome at things like using belittling names for women to put them in their place. Also, sweeping generalizations.
I can only imagine how much you'd bitch about having to do construction work on a highway day after day. We are lucky enough to live in a society that if that's what you want to do, then you CAN do it. So from one woman to another, you really need to keep your mouth shut.
From one feminist to an asshole: No thanks.
Regardless of sex or gender or anything, NO ONE wants to be around a whiny bitch. Then again if that's what you want to be than go for it. You're doing a great job.
Thanks! Now can I have that promotion to raging cuntmonster you've been promising me?
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"Now can I have that promotion to raging cuntmonster you've been promising me?"
Don't do it! Ball-cutting cybersuccubi have WAY better benefits.
It's considerate of all these people, wanting you to be voted miss congeniality and all.
I am SO going to be using "raging cuntmonster!"
With your new title as Raging Cuntmonster, and leaving the old department of Ball-Cutting Succubi,
you'll have to get new business cards.
How about that "whiney bitch" shut up, go to the kitchen and make me a sandwich... oh sorry... was that sexist?
Yeah, sexism still exists... and we'll gladly "WHINE" about it everyday!
Ugh.. so pathetic. I mean really. Some people have nothing better to do than just rag on other people for doing something meaningful with their lives. As though having the right to vote is the only thing that woman needed the opportunity to do. And I am pretty annoyed with the assumption that I have the same option as any man with no skills in construction to just become a construction worker?
I was talking about this with a friend the other day. My boyfriend keeps getting all these random job offers. like digging ditches and random things like that.. and I just wonder if he's only getting these offers because he's a boy. He obviously has no experience in the "digging ditches business" but because he's a boy they figure he's strong and capable .. and that shit pisses me off..
ROAR!
If someone gave me the chance.. I could dig a damn ditch!
that's funny because i would love a job outside and in the dirt - im hoping to find one come spring on a landscaping team or something.
Definitely sounds like an insecure man sock-puppeting as a woman. Grow up, dude!
i've never understood write-ins like this. trying to put you in your place by saying 'i'm a woman and i want you to shut up' or 'i'm a woman and i disagree with you, so SHUT UP' like that somehow balances out and/or cancels out your opinions.
so bizarre.
Wow, why didn't it occur to me before that conservative apologists would like me better if I could just shut the hell up?
Oh wait, it did occur me...
Ugh. I know these are supposed to be something peeps can read and be like, wow, these haters suck and not get too bothered by it, but that second to last one pisses me off. "We are lucky enough to live in a society that if that's what you want to do [be a construction worker], then you CAN do it." Ask almost any woman in construction how easy it is getting along in that world as a woman. Then ask any feminist woman (or an woman who thinks it's important to stand up for herself regardless of what she calls herself) in construction the same question. Then, proceed to shut the fuck up.
School's just getting started and these 14 year-old boys are already not paying attention and playing around in their computer lab?
Seriously, these sound like a collective voice of a few adolescent boys.
I hate anti-feminist women more than I hate anti-feminist men. They are the worst!
While I understand your irritation with anti-feminist women, PamelaVee, I think it's extremely unfair not to consider the power of internalized oppression. For many women, being anti-feminist is a way to work the system that's already in place, earning head-pats from the patriarchal authority structure. For others, it's a survival tactic. Others have been socially indoctrinated to loathe all women.
Yes, women have all too often been conscripted by the patriarchy to keep all women down, but I think your hatred is seriously misplaced.
Well that's rather sexist of you. I consider anti-feminist men and women to be equal and I hate them the same.
But theyre not. One has been taught to think like that and hate themselves the other was the instructor.
My last comment was a joke, but I don't agree with what you're saying.
I think that men and women both need to be taught to have sexist attitudes and more importantly both can be taught not to.
And the sad truth is that women do frequently perpetuate sexist attitudes. I have seen many women attack and discredit their rivals by talking about their sex lives and accusing them of being sluts.
It's comforting to think that there is some "instructor" out their creating the sexism, but ideas really have a life of their own. And any successful idea has learned to live in both men and women.
So apparently you think women and men started sexism simultaneously? Liek women would just choose to start a degrading, oppressive line of thinking autonomously and on their own without any enciuragement from someone else. I dont think so. One WAS the instructor the other learned. You dont seem to get that part.
I think sexism was started by people who are dead now. Now it is carried on by both men and women for sure. I've known women who perpetuate sexism, not because they hate themselves but because they see it to their advantage.
This includes both conservative women who like to attack women who are different from them and generally unprincipled women who like to accuse their female office enemies of sleeping around and being sluts.
Do you think Sarah Palin and Phyllis Schlafly hate themselves? No, they love themselves more than you will ever love yourself.
Am I saying that sexism comes primarily from women? No. It comes primarily from men. But I think it's rather silly to think it comes from some secret cabal of men who meet in an underground lair who conspire to trick women to hate themselves.
That sort of thinking is going a little too close to patriarchy = men, which I never like because it doesn't seem very accurate or helpful when it comes to dismantling it. As a society, we uphold these things, regardless of what sex we are. Men have less reason to dismantle it, because it benefits them more, but they're not exactly the sole perpetrators of it.
And really, once you do the analysis, patriarchy teaches men to hate themselves, too, what with the you-can't-show-emotions, you-can't-be-as-good-of-a-parent, and the whole masculinity deal. I don't know how any guy comes out of that conditioning feeling secure and comfortable with himself.
The haters hating the haters. It's good to see you hate actual debate on what you think is important. You'd make a double plus good little minion spouting the party rhetoric. I don't hate feminists, why would I put that kind of negativity in my life towards a bunch of douchebags who believe in the almighty patriarchy and that 1 in 4 chicks is going to be raped by either myself or some other male bastard. I used to be like you in my own politics, it was all consuming, that's why I don't hate you, I pity you, but don't hate. You're all so very tough, tough grrrls with a Billy Idol sneer.
It must be nice to be so incredibly privileged that you can choose to ignore the fact that 1 in 4 women are sexually assaulted. Most of us have to live in reality, though.
Regardless of sex or gender or anything, NO ONE wants to be around a whiny bitch.
I have an icon over on Livejournal. I'm not sure who made it originally...but I think its text kind of fits nicely here:
"If I plucked my eyebrows, got married, stopped voting, wore make up, believed magazines, got a boob job, became nice, quit my job, starved myself, had children, dropped out of uni, accepted the double standard, accepted the glass ceiling, didn't tease, calmed down, developed a maternal instinct, welcomed your laws on my body, styled my hair, was seen and not heard, shaved my legs on a regular basis, didn't say "privilege," or "patriarchy," or "feminism," wore high heels, turned straight, went shopping, hated my body, wore skirts, shut the fuck up, stopped swearing, fell in love with housework, became illiterate, lost weight, couldn't lift heavy objects, didn't argue, perfumed my twat, became chaste, stopped thinking: would that satisfy you? (Or do you expect fellatio as well?)"
Wow, "Raging Cuntmonster" would be a great name for a rock band.
They can open for Vagiant (an awesome female punk band from Boston). I can see the marquee in my head now...
I've been thinking about my own choices of words lately. In re-reading my comment, I think it says something that I felt the need to specify that Vagiant are a female punk band, as opposed to just a punk band. The specifier implies that punk bands are assumed male by default. I don't want to derail the conversation, just doing some self reflection.
Personally, I think that the female in "female punk band" intimates that it's the group making a statement about the word vagina that isn't also a statement about sexual orientation or exploitation by men.
Generally speaking, I agree with you that the modifier is largely unnecessary, but I think in this instance it may be needed.
Just some pleasant food for thought.
Haha isn't it great when you don't even need to help an idiot make their intelligence level so obvious?
LOVE it.
I hope they're reading these message boards. Now we've switched from whiny to just flat out bitchy!
I suppose ignorance is bliss in their case too... I love how they argue that since things are better here than in some other places there can't POSSIBLY still be sexism in our society. It's despicable that we would even try to think and fight it! Thank you writer, you've really helped us to see the light.
Jessica and commenters:
don't you realize you're making the same mistake you argued against in the Caster Semenya case? You all were bent because it was assumed that Semenya was a man based on outward appearance, but you're so quick to say that this commenter is a man despite saying she's a woman. what gives?
Also, the emailer's tone aside, don't you all ever consider her points? If 75% of the population tunes out because they perceive you as complaining too much, doesn't that hurt your end goal? Or do you just not care? Is your movement only one for purists? If you don't buy into the movement wholesale you're not welcome?
Instead of belittling the emailer (and more importantly people who share those same viewpoints w/o the ad hominem attacks) you all should address them. Those of us outside feminism see a web of incongruency and contradictions. If you want your message to resonate, I suggest a little PR....but then again, idealists don't really do PR do they?
The answers to all your questions are here http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/
There are tons of resources at you disposal if you truly want to learn about feminism, you are free to use any and all of them. Coming on to a website for feminists and then demanding the website owners and participants educate you is not one of those resources.
If 75% of the population tunes out because they perceive you as complaining too much, doesn't that hurt your end goal?
89% of statistics are made-up on the spot.
I want to live in whatever world this woman is living in, because it sounds pretty SWEET! Clearly it's a land where:
*No woman is ever raped and then told they had it coming because they were wearing tight clothes.
*No woman ever got called a bitch because she didn't accept the advances of Random Guy On The Street.
*All women in every community in every state receive equal pay for equal work. Even minorities!
*There's an equal representation of women and men in all levels of government.
*There aren't wingnuts trying to dismantle women's right to make their own reproductive decisions.
*Human trafficking of girls and women never occurs.
*No woman ever suffers or dies at the hands of a domestic abuser.
*No woman is ever asked questions about her sexual history as part of a rape investigation.
And that's just the beginning of how wonderful the world this woman is living in must be. Please tell me where this land is, so that I can go live there. Because it sounds a hell of a lot better than the world I'm living in.
yes, there is misogyny in this world, but there's also misandry.
how about a world where:
*men are screwed by no-fault divorce, alimony payments, and excessive child support
*women own the means to reproduction, namely they have an innate power of sexual choice which supercedes and rules most behaviors of men. not only do you have that control, for the most part, you also want overarching power in the political and economic realm. there is some sort of tradeoff inherent in our different genetically "created" natures.
*men get called "creepy" for hitting on a woman or are called dogs for expressing our inherent attractions to women
*boys suffer under the liberal, feminist inspired education system which has evolved for the sake of uniformity.
*men make up about 99% of the "death occupations" compared to women.
*men are subjected to combat and die in war for the protection of society as a whole much more than women. sure, feminists want women to be in combat, but if that came to fruition how many women would actually sign up?
*socialist policies in government have led to a recession (he-cession) in which 80% of all lost jobs are men's. most of the jobs being created, in the public sector, are predominantly occupied by women.
*men in some states and countries are forced to raise a child previously thought to be theirs, when they finally find out, through DNA testing, that they were cuckolded.
So misogyny exists, but so does misandry. That doesn't change the fact that women have control over many more realms outside the economic and political that men will *never* occupy.
I would sign up for the military.
"liberal, feminist-inspired education system"? Really? Because we sure didn't have that at my school. If we had, then my education might have been a bit more worthwhile.
"innate power of sexual choice"? Oh just go blow yourself already. I am almost ashamed to be giving you the attention and derailing the thread, but this is such an UTTER FUCKING LIE that I can't just leave it be. Our reproductive choice and health options are severeley limited...by conservatives...and mostly by men. If certain conservative men got it through their heads that women are, in fact, their equals, then reproductive choice would be something we could discus and work on together as equal human beings instead of something that we are forced to use time fighting for.
Why don't you go and do some real research on social, political, and economic roles of females and males? And then, why don't you come back with some actual statistics?
Come on, feminists, back me up here.
Yeah, those poor underpriveleged white males. They just can't catch a break.
You misunderstand feminism...it's about equality for the sexes, which, last time I checked means more than one (aka men and women).
To address your other concerns:
- last time I checked, it takes a sperm and an egg to create a baby...
-It is creepy when some men hit on women, but not every man. When you're old enough to be my father or grandfather, it's creepy. Also, the label "dog" generally doesn't apply to respectful people. Drooling, catcalling, making obscene gestures, grabbing people - inappropriate. Oh, and not all men are "inherently" attracted to women.
-boys AND girls suffer in our education system - it has nothing to do with feminism
-military right now is voluntary, and many combat positions are not open to women. Don't want to die?? Don't sign up.
-men are, generally, in more higher paying positions than women, guess what - they are the first ones to be cut in a recession.
-if you're not sure the child is yours, get an f-ing DNA test done before the child grows up.
I sure feel for any woman who reproduces with this guy. Clearly he feels the financial support of his biological children to be an "excessive" expense, perhaps the product of those evil feminine wiles that are always getting him down. And last I checked, the fallout of "cuckolding" wasn't exactly feeding the foster care system. For that we can, at least in part, point to deadbeat dads who think they've been robbed in family court. Seriously? Excessive child support? Every single dad I know is more than HAPPY to give his last goddamn dime to his kids. What's your excuse?
I hate to be the one to break it to you dude, but your language absolutely drips with the sexism you claim to be above. And you shoot yourself in the foot with your own argument. Let's assume for one second that what you wrote about women taking more than their share from men isn't the utter bullshit that it is. Kinda sounds like you're arguing that it isn't right for one sex to dominate economically, politically, professionally, etc. Well how about that! But alas, the garbage that just spewed forth from your keyboard is just that, garbage. It's your opinion as a man who clearly feels he has been shafted by women. You're right. Misandry exists. But you aren't experiencing it. If all the misandry that exists were rolled into a ball and put next to the absolute bullshit women have to put up with on a daily basis--if your struggle as a poor wronged white dude were put next to the struggle every woman on this planet makes every day just to get a little fucking respect--no one would even see it because it wouldn't compare. So shut the fuck up.
friendly:
as feminists, you all should be arguing that men and women are *inherently* equally capable of taking care of children, but as wel all know, courts assume the mother as caretraker by default. men are at the mercy of the court, and often (as in the case of my parents) at the mercy of the mother (my mother is a saint and didn't put up a fight to let my father see his kids even though she could have had grounds for doing so).
look, i'm all in favor of equality between the sexes, but moreso, i'm against government meddling in human interaction. government intrusion in the courts and on the side of women in the economic realm have overshot their intended goal of equality *in the aggregate*.
before, women had the power of the cradle, womb, and kitchen; now they have those plus almost equal power in other realms to the extend that men are barely needed. some women may think that's fine, but it's not good for society as a whole. you need men who are invested in this culture.
to address an issue from earlier: men invented contraception and birth control.
"...men invented contraception and birth control."
Um, really??? Here's some Googling for you: Margaret Sanger.
And..."as feminists, you all should be arguing that men and women are *inherently* equally capable of taking care of children..."
No, I will NOT make you a fucking sandwich.
before, women had the power of the cradle, womb, and kitchen; now they have those plus almost equal power in other realms to the extend that men are barely needed.>>
I have provided some terms you may find useful.
So it's the advancement of women into the world of men that has you concerned? That's called sexism. And no one here is saying that society doesn't need men or is advocating for their removal from it.
I'm more than happy to share the power of the cradle and the kitchen. (The womb is pretty one-sided, though my partner and I will make decisions together about if and when to have children. That's a characteristic of a healthy relationship, and I also advocate for the related skills to be taught to all people.) The power of the kitchen is not as magical as you seem to think. (We get men to do what we want or we'll burn dinner? Or *gasp* refuse to make anything so he starves because he doesn't know how to make Kraft noodles? Insert diabolical laughter!) And the power of the cradle? That's called parenting, and it sounds like you advocate for fathers to participate as well.
Feminists aren't trying to take all the power from men. We want to have an equal share of it. Despite your opinions, we have not succeeded at equality, and we certainly haven't succeeded at the uprising you've described. It sounds a little like you want to go back to the good ole days of "Behind every great man, there's a great woman." I don't want her standing behind him, I want her next to him, so they can support one another.
I'm not afraid of men trying to be better parents or cooking meals, and I've never heard anyone say that they were. When we finally level the playing field, it will be better for everyone, regardless of gender identity.
"before, women had the power of the cradle, womb, and kitchen"
Hey dude you can have that shit all to yourself!!!To deny yourself this 'power' would be misandrist.
Isnt the world a horrible place!! Whites are racist against, heterophobia runs rampant and misandry is openly poracticed and tolerated!!!!LOLOLOLO!!! And the sun revolves around the earth too!!!And if you sail to far you'll fall off the earth!!
"before, women had the power of the cradle, womb, and kitchen"
Hey dude you can have that shit all to yourself!!!To deny yourself this 'power' would be misandrist.
Isnt the world a horrible place!! Whites are racist against, heterophobia runs rampant and misandry is openly practiced and tolerated!!!!LOLOLOLO!!! And the sun revolves around the earth too!!!And if you sail to far you'll fall off the earth!!
Always gotta worry about those baby crazed ladyfolk trying to impregnate herself using used condoms to get that child support payment!!!!!What a scary world!!!!
Is it normal for a "what about the MEN?" comment to come in this early?
Poor, poor baby.
TROLL!!
" That doesn't change the fact that women have control over many more realms outside the economic and political that men will *never* occupy. "
That doesnt even make sense. So ladies that means you have to give up any public/economic and political arena and omit defining your society that you inhabit because you have a uterus.
Fuck, what a dipshit. Typical MRA blather.
Oh, sometimes I can’t resist the bait! Here’s a little something to think about, sir, using asterisks just like you!
*Family courts tend to side with women because raising children is still seen as mainly the woman’s job. Guess who wants to change that? Hint: the answer starts with "f" and ends with "-eminists."
*Yes, we have uteri. Sorry, it’s not our fault. That does not in any way mean we have “an innate power of sexual choice which supercedes [sic] and rules most behaviors of men.” I’m not even sure what that means- basically you’re upset that women (theoretically) can refuse to screw you? Feminists are all about having more parity in romantic relations (Women asking men out! Women having casual sex!); unfortunately many men out there will reject women who act outside their traditional gender role as too aggressive or slutty.
*You get called creepy when you are creepy. Pretty much every woman alive has been harassed, groped, insulted, followed, assaulted, and worse by men “expressing [their] inherent attractions.” Women are not obligated to respond positively your attentions. You are not obligated to enjoy the attention of women, either! The next time an unattractive, sweaty woman twice your age and twice your size follows you down the street telling you in great detail the sexual things she’d like to do to you in spite of your repeated requests that she leave you alone, I give you full license to call her creepy.
*Our education system is not “feminist inspired” (whatever that means). And yes, feminists would like to see both girls and boys reach their full potential in school. There is no feminist conspiracy to raise a generation of brainy girls and uneducated boys.
*Yes, men work more dangerous jobs than women. And women work more low-paying, low status jobs than men. As gender equality increases, we have more women in those dangerous jobs, and I imagine we have more men working in traditionally female fields, too. I suggest you take a job with Merry Maids and strike a blow against gender segregation in the workforce.
*First, war isn’t about the “protection of society.” And second, according to a recent New York Times article, “[i]t appears that more girls and women are now missing from the planet, precisely because they are female, than men were killed on the battlefield in all the wars of the 20th century.” Men go to war, women get abused and killed in a myriad of ways because their lives are less valued. Everybody loses. Feminists want to change that.
*Uh, the crash had much more to do with deregulation than “socialist policies.” And while women haven’t lost as many jobs, we are still less likely overall to be employed, more likely to live in poverty, face harsh financial penalties for getting pregnant, and are paid 20% less then men on average.
*Yes, women cheat on men. Men also cheat on women. Sometimes a child results from said cheating. How is that misandry?
Also, Mr. MRA troll, couldn’t you have come up with a more creative handle than a Bukowski shoutout? Cliché, my friend, cliché.
(Bless me father, for I have fed the troll.)
(Bless me father, for I have fed the troll.)
Save 5 Hail Maudes my child, and all is forgiven.
(Your reply covered exactly what I wanted to say. Thank you.)
*socialist policies in government have led to a recession (he-cession) in which 80% of all lost jobs are men's. most of the jobs being created, in the public sector, are predominantly occupied by women.
Actually, it was lack of socialist policies like overseeing the banking industry which led to this "he-cession". If the US were more socialist and taking more preventative action against known risky business behavior, then the banking panic wouldn't have happened which led to the collapse of the rest of the economy.
Government oversight was actually the answer to this. I'm fairly certain, but I'm not historical economist, that the majority - if not all - recessions and depressions in the US were caused by an unregulated market, which is pretty much the opposite of socialism.
Someone correct me if I'm revisioning history on this.
"yes, there is misogyny in this world, but there's also misandry."
Ah yes, the old diversionary tactic. After all, blatant hatred against women doesn't matter when compared to the trials and tribulations men must face every time they go for a prostate exam. Heaven forfend that women have the right to choose their own mates.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but women ARE allowed to choose who they sleep with and you aren't entitled to fuck whomever strikes your fancy just because you're male.
Let me paint this picture clearly for you, Mr. Privilege. Imagine that some strange woman you've never met and don't find particularly attractive comes up to you at some random social gathering. Imagine her persisting after you've already politely declined her advances.
Now imagine her shouting a dirty name at you when you try to walk away.
You bitch about women having a choice in dating, yet half of the guys that complain like you do have severe double-standards. You are fat and ugly yourselves, yet you expect beauty queens to spread their legs wide open for you. You haven't seen your toes for years, yet you make fun of overweight women.
No, women don't hold all the cards in dating. We simply have the final say in who we do or do not fuck, and if it's unfair to you that you can't get a supermodel just because you want one, maybe it's unfair to us that we can't get a Johnny Depp just because we want one.
Double. Standards. You're allowed to be selective but women aren't. Fucking prick.
i'm not seeking pity for myself. i'm perfectly fine. so the digs of "poor baby" and all that are misplaced when aimed at me.
plus, they won't have their desired effect.
our education system has been constructed with egalitarian ends in mind. everyone is the same, for the most part, all the way through school. there is no differentiation. boys and girls are taught and handled as if they are the same: they're not. boys suffer most under this system as shown by their slow learning progress and behavioral issues. let boys be boys. christine hoff somers: "The War Against Boys."
""innate power of sexual choice"? Oh just go blow yourself already."
am i throwing bombs here? just bringing up points. try using the respect i'm affording you here, please. it's funny that you automatically assumed i'm speaking about abortion rights. i'm not talking about that. i'm talking about female choice in the market for mating and dating. *women* choose. your one-track mind is hurting you if you think the only relevant issue pertaining to male/female reproduction is the aborting of it. that being said, i'm all for a woman's right to choose.
Not to derail, but how many women are hindered by this perceived "lack of abortion rights". i've known plenty of women, rich and poor who are able to get the abortions they want. They cost, what, $500? not very much money for such a big issue.
regarding paternity testing:
http://tinycatpants.wordpress.com/2008/02/17/im-beginning-to-suspect-that-the-tennessee-legislature-thinks-women-are-just-naturally-lying-liars-who-lie/
obviously there would be some feminist road-blocks to this. are you, as feminists, opposed to paternity testing on demand? and how do you feel if a man finds out, after the fact, that he is not the father of his assumed child?
"let boys be boys"? Please. Just go to AskMen or something where your kind belongs.
I wasn't referring to abortion rights--and nowhere did I even mention the word "abortion." It seems mine is not the one-track mind here. And $500? That's two months rent--I have more important things to use my money for. And they often cost a lot more than that--For the waiting period--there's the travel costs for rural women. And don't forget the social and emotional costs of needing a perfectly safe and legal procedure but still being harassed by anti-choicers who think they know better than pregnant women.
Not only that, woman do not choose everything in when it comes to dating. But since you've obviously never had real contact with women, it's ok that you don't know.
Try $3000, fella. Do a little research on the accessibility of abortion services in this country before you drop in here dropping figures and grinding axes. And if you don't feel you personally have been harmed by feminism, then WTF is your problem? Sorry, I don't buy it. The type of person who would leave a comment like yours is the type of person who feels threatened when people who have been shortchanged on the basis of their gender, ethnicity or sexual orientation ask for what they are entitled to as human fucking beings.
I should clarify, up to $3000, depending on how far along with woman is, who the provider is and whether or not she has insurance.
well a friend of mine who duped two guys : one her boyfriend and the other guy she was fucking on the side into paying for her abortion got half from each party. $250 each.
http://www.ehow.com/about_4618800_how-much-do-abortions-cost.html
here's a quick post from a seemingly unbiased website. it says they are "low cost" and throws the figure $350 out there. so that's only 1.4 months rent. that's progress.
Your friend sounds like a terrible human being for manipulating two people like that. At least, that's my perspective.
It takes two to tango so why shouldnt he pay for it? How is that 'duped?' The guys had minds of their own. Youre just a misogynist that casts anything a woman does as evil because youre an ass. I bet the story's made up anyways. It sounds made up just to bolster your sexist bullshit.
This guy is not worth the time it takes to reply...
Not to derail...
So, since you don't want to derail...
The topic today is: Hatemail Feministing Recieves. (not "but, what about the MENZ?!?")
"am i throwing bombs here? just bringing up points. try using the respect i'm affording you here, please. it's funny that you automatically assumed i'm speaking about abortion rights. i'm not talking about that. i'm talking about female choice in the market for mating and dating. *women* choose. your one-track mind is hurting you if you think the only relevant issue pertaining to male/female reproduction is the aborting of it. that being said, i'm all for a woman's right to choose."
So because women don't want to fuck you it means "poor men?" Are you an asshole for rejecting a woman? This type of thinking is what enables rape, women "refuse", is a bitch, deserved what she got. I've been groped, yelled at, cat called, had my arm nearly popped out of its socket, all because I had the audacity to show up at a bar and not show any interest in men. And I'm the luckiest girl I know because thats the worst that happened to me, thats not to speak of women who were raped, beaten and killed because they apparently had too much control over dating.
Yes, the education system does hurt boys. The education system also hurts girls when they are not called on as much as boys or discouraged to take part in math and science classes because they're not "girly" or because it's not "girly" to be smart. Education in this country just plain sucks for a lot of people.
Women choose in mating and dating? What the hell does that even mean? Pretty sure when I go on dates and get married (all the time) it's a mutual thing. We choose to be with each other. Everyone has standards, including (gasp!) men and we choose who we want to be with by those standards. If a guy doesn't like a girl, he is just as likely to NOT choose to continue dating her as a girl who doesn't like a guy.
If a guy finds out he's not the father, he's off the hook legally. Not really a whole lot else to do there.
In my world, men do the choosing. But, then again, men choose the men.
On the whole, I really can't participate in this de-rail since, you know, I don't live in the heteronormative world the troll does.
Just sayin'.... (not directly at you, though, hellotwin! :-) )
Yea, that was very hetero-normative of me. Thanks for pointing it out.
Oh no! heat of battle and speaking in generalities does that sort of thing. I don't want you to get the wrong impression.. I just thought it the best place to respond to the discussion... thus what looks like the entirely awkward call out of you!!!
Apologies!
WTF? I spent several years working in construction. I built things and drove heavy equipment. I also did stage rigging and pyrotechnics before I got my college degrees because it was far less patronizing than being a waitress. If anything, construction work made me into a bigger feminist than ever, but the best part is, my participation turned many of my colleagues into feminists as well.
Then, according to the author of this lovely missive, "you really need to keep your mouth shut." Because, you know, you CAN do it, so, therefore you shouldn't talk about feminism or fight for equality...or something.
Ok, now my head hurts from using this person's "logic."
WTF? I spent several years working in construction. I built things and drove heavy equipment. I also did stage rigging and pyrotechnics before I got my college degrees because it was far less patronizing than being a waitress. If anything, construction work made me into a bigger feminist than ever, but the best part is, my participation turned many of my colleagues into feminists as well.
beth, et al.:
everytime i visit here, i hope that we can have rational discourse, but i'm disappointed every time. am i being a prick here?
i don't think so. yeah, i'm arguing for a different viewpoint, but your reaction gets to the point of the original email that stirred this debate: you start calling names and spouting off thus turning people away from your argument. behave like an adult. perhaps you don't agree with my position, but i don't agree with yours either. there, we're even.
wrt abortion, this is what you said:
"Our reproductive choice and health options are severeley limited...by conservatives...and mostly by men."
you didn't say the word "abortion" but that's obviously what you're alluding to. reproductive choice implies choice to forgo reproduction aka abortion.
"And they often cost a lot more than that--For the waiting period--there's the travel costs for rural women"
so we should provide abortions for anyone whenever they want it? would that not create a lot more abortions in the first place? if a woman is assured of an abortion whenever, wherever, her behavior might change, for the worse. subsidizing abortions is not the way to go. i need a new car, should i be provided with that just because i want it? who dictates that a rural woman's desire for an abortion is a more noble reason for subsidy than mine? here's the solution, neither one of us, the rural woman or myself get what we want *just because*.
There are fewer options for cars in my city, but i have to deal with that and make consolations. likewise, if a rural woman wants an abortion, she can save up her money and find a ride to the clinic. why is this such a big issue with you all?
regarding the protesters: i disagree with them, but they are exercising their right to free speech. life isn't fair and its not pretty, sometimes we have to deal with shit we don't want to to get the things we do.
"But since you've obviously never had real contact with women"
again with the personal attacks. i don't take them personally because i know you have no way of knowing my situation or what i do or don't get from women. we'll leave it anonymous like that because your opinion doesn't matter since we can throw bombs behind the shield of the internet.
everytime i visit here, i hope that we can have rational discourse, but i'm disappointed every time. am i being a prick here?
Hmmm, are you being an asshat (I don’t use gendered insults)? Let’s see…you come onto a website by feminists and for feminists and derail a thread about hate mail the site receives by first demanding we educate people on feminism. You further derail the thread by posting perceived ills toward men, blaming feminism for them, and then demanding the readers of the site refute them and defend feminism. Again, on a post about hate mail the site receives. On top of all of that, you have the nerve to call us rude for not capitulating to your demands. Yeah, I’d say you are being an asshat.
"am i being a prick here?"
-----------------((YES!!!!))---------------------
am i being a prick here?
YES!
>>so we should provide abortions for anyone whenever they want it? would that not create a lot more abortions in the first place?
First of all, you just went from saying "Abortions are so cheap and available!" to saying "Why should we make abortions so available?" That's a tad stupid.
Also, women don't decide to have abortions just because the clinic is closer. Perhaps you can, I don't know, EDUCATE yourself on abortion, it's availability and why women have abortions before talking about it. The reason why abortion availability is such an issue is because it leaves poor women with fewer options. Wealthier women will always find the means to travel if necessary to have an abortion, while lower class women are unable to do so.
>>if a woman is assured of an abortion whenever, wherever, her behavior might change, for the worse.
This is such a ridiculous, ignorant thing to say. It makes no sense. As a middle class woman who lives in a liberal state, abortion is both affordable and easily accessible to me. This doesn't effect my sexual behavior in any way. I'm only assuming you mean sexual behavior because, well, what else could you mean? And who are you to decide what is acceptable behavior for sex anyway? Why the fuck is it any of your concern?
>>i need a new car, should i be provided with that just because i want it?
Fuck... you.
You come on here wondering why people don't respect you, why they insult you, but you still continue to spew this shit.
How the fuck did you even come up with this pathetic excuse of a comparison?
A woman facing an unwanted pregnancy, dealing with her options, considering her financial situation, considering the future, possibly thinking of how it will effect her raising the kids she might already have, thinking about how it will effect her marriage, how it will effect her education if she's still in school, dealing with all the emotional bullshit is NOTHING like you buying a new car.
I know I'm not supposed to feed the troll, but I really think you need to understand that you don't know shit about abortion and why women have them. Please, go read a fucking book already. The information is so available to you, you don't even have an excuse for being so ignorant on the subject.
"First of all, you just went from saying "Abortions are so cheap and available!" to saying "Why should we make abortions so available?" That's a tad stupid."
i said no such thing. the quotes are yours. abortions should cost whatever the market dictates they should cost. if a NGO wants to set up a program that subsidizes abortions, that's their prerogative, but using gov't sanction to funnel vast resources to providing abortions, which very, very few women actually *need* is a subsidy. when you subsidize something, you get more of it. it's a basic economic tenet.
the issue at hand is that you all seek egalitarian ends for *every single issue*. how can we make everything in this world, abortions or cars, available on demand for everyone?
and why should we buy into the argument that abortions should be available to anyone, wherever they live, and whatever their socioeconomic condition? *you* may think it's of utmost importance, but you're in the minority.
OK. availability of abortion may not affect *your* behavior, but *in the mother fucking aggregate* women's behavior will be altered. as i stated above, subsidies create more of the subsidized behavior.
i got railed earlier by women who said that men can't complain about war or raising children that aren't their own using the "they signed up for it" argument. well, a pregnant woman - in 99.9% of the cases - signed up for her pregnancy. she may have an unwanted pregnancy, but she didn't have unwanted sex. we all have to deal with the consequences of our actions to some extent. it would be nice if doctors all across america wanted to provide abortions in every small town, but the doctors don't find it profitable, and they can't be forced into work they don't want to do.
btw, Carl Djerassi "invented" the Pill. perhaps sanger did a lot to promote the idea of it and funding for its research, but she didn't *invent* it. get a clue. also, sanger thought abortion is immoral.
Childbirth doesn't happen in a void. Women are rational actors, and if they want to have an abortion, it's probably because they know they can't support a child in the way they would like to. When mothers who don't have access to reproductive services or can't afford them have children... what happens to those children? They are subsidized, because our government isn't such a harsh free-market paradise as to let the children of the poor starve in the gutters. So, the government will be paying to support these children that the mothers knew they could not afford to be having for decades, versus a subsidy of a few hundred dollars to give the mother access to the reproductive services she needed. I think that abortion is much more than a hard economic issue, but if you insist on painting it as such, subsidizing it makes a lot of sense!
Of course, looking at it this way requires a shift away from thinking that pregnancy is the punishment that women get for being sluts...
And if you really believe that every woman who has sex is signing up for pregnancy, am I to believe that you never in your life have sex with a woman who doesn't feel comfortable with having a child right at this instant?
Abortion, contraception and other methods of family planning are all parts of reproductive *health care.* Access to them benefits all genders.
Behavior has nothing to do with it. It is silly to view pregnancy as a "serves you right" punishment, and restrict access to people. People have sex, and everyone has the right to decide the shape of their families, how/when they develop, whether they want a lot of kids or none.
Yes, de-derailing this trolled-up thread. :) How about that anti-feminist mail Jessica got???
Thanks for bringing us back. Sometimes it's just too damn hard to resist those trolls...
re: trolling, derailing
my first comment had *everything* to do with jessica's post. i responded that instead of belittling the commenter, you can also listen to the spirit of the email. dissenting voices are good sometimes.
friendlyfeminist responded in kind with a laundry list of misogyny in our society, and the snowball grew from there.
so friendlyfem, go back and read the initial exchange. you'll find that i'm not the troll here, indeed, it is you.
I have a feeling this http://fugitivus.wordpress.com/2009/08/25/a-few-things-to-stop-doing-when-you-find-a-feminist-blog/ was written SPECIFICALLY FOR YOU!
Please read that link before you ever comment on any feminist blog ever again.
For Bukowski,
A few men invented modern birth control (women have been using other methods for thousands of years), but you know what a woman invented at around the same time? KEVLAR.
Socialist-inspired recession? Last time I checked, Bush was a born-again Christian and hard-line capitalist. Clinton's corporatist policies helped, too, but hey, at least he balanced the budget before he left. Lest you forget, the recession started before Obama arrived at the White House (remember those two wars we're in, you know, the ones costing us millions of dollars a nanosecond?), and we've got unchecked capitalist deregulation (which also led to many non-public service jobs leaving the country) to thank for negative public opinion of said system, so if anyone's to blame for socialism in America, it's those who enabled it to creep into our lives in the first place with their unbridled, unchecked greed. That part of your argument -- the so-called "he-session" -- has very little to do with women's equality. You guys want your jobs back? Go talk to the company owners (most likely men, btw) who took the business overseas to save pennies on the dollar.
Oh, and by the way, it was another woman, Margaret Sanger, who paved the way for the men who then went on to invent the modern pill. Along with writing books on the subject -- starting in 1916 -- she also invented the first family planning clinic in the US in 1916 before a white male in power (Anthony Comstock) threatened her with prison and defamation of character. Sanger later moved to France, where she worked more freely on her research in an effort to help families plan the number of children they had.
For more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger
Oh, and by the way, it was another woman, Margaret Sanger, who paved the way for the men who then went on to invent the modern pill. Along with writing books and pamphlets on the subject -- starting in 1914 -- she also invented the first family planning clinic in the US in 1916 before a white male in power (Anthony Comstock) threatened her with prison and defamation of character. Sanger later moved to France, where she worked more freely on her research in an effort to help families plan the number of children they had.
For more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger
I
I
DAMMIT! stupid "smart" text!
I *heart* the mailbag
I *don't heart* the troll
Hey Gular! Just remember:
& # 60 ; 3
And pound sixty semi-colon three.
That will get you your heart: <3
or you can do:
& hearts
Which will get you an actual heart! For example:
Sabriel &hearts Feministing.
heh yeah. I just am so used to messengers and facebook that I just put the "less than three" on default.
Do you know the ♥ for a broken heart? That was going to be the second one, but I failed at Feministing. T__T
I'm sure many women would be more than happy to share the "power" you think they have. Unfortunately, some men make THEMSELVES redundant in this, by virtue of the privileged "I have penis, I rule" attitude which makes them incapable of even attempting domestics beyond a ball game, horsing around or strangling infants when they get too mouthy.
It isn't up to women to make men more worthwhile on the homestead. It's up to the men and I can assure you that the few mothers I know with stay-at-home husbands really appreciate it.
The efforts of men who actually try are not unsung. I think that certain kinds of men believe they only need to do the "Kodak moments" to be good fathers. I can't help but think you are the same.
Men can be just as good at caregiving if they give a care.
in response to the discussion concerning "reproductive rights":
as i've said before, i believe that if a woman wants to have an abortion, she can have one. but that doesn't imply that she has a *right* or a *guarantee* to one. this is our fundamental difference.
take the argument to its logical extent...if everyone wants something and is guaranteed that something, how is it paid for? who pays for it? what dictates the line of demarcation between what should be provided and what shouldn't? why are abortions so much more important than cars for those who want cars? why not put all "reproductive rights" funding into research for cancer or AIDS...who determines what is proper? do we stop only when every woman who wants an abortion can have one immediately? what's the metric? just some fundamental questions here that center more around economic philosophy than judgment of reproductive rights.
i suppose i'll be shot down though just because i don't just say that I agree with abortions on demand at any cost.
Here's a hint: bodily integrity. If you can't understand the difference between a woman being able to exercise control over HER OWN BODY and someone WANTING A CAR, there's no hope for you.