Speaking of Nice Guys™
Check this out from PassiveAgressiveNotes.com:
k, so court in michigan met this guy out at a bar. he seemed harmless enough, but court knew right he wasn't her type. still, she didn't have the heart to give him a flat-out "no" when he asked for her number. (she couldn't give him a fake one, either, 'cause he the did the "dial his number into the phone and call" thing.)says court: "the first time he called, i talked to him and decided right then i definitely wasn't interested." by the end of the conversation, she figured he'd gotten the message...but then he kept calling. and then, texting. when she didn't respond, court says, "i assumed he'd take the hint...but i'm not too sure he did." um, yeah, you could say that.
Um, scary. Entitled much?
0 TrackBacks
Listed below are links to blogs that reference this entry: Speaking of Nice Guys™ .
TrackBack URL for this entry: http://www.feministing.com/cgi-bin/movabletype/mt-tb.fcgi/15491
Oh yes, I've come across this. I tend to give flat-out nos, but it doesn't seem to elicit any more respect than women who don't. It just speeds up the process of them declaring me shallow and bitchy. I always love how we're accused of being those things for not liking that specific dude. I like some guys. I don't like others. Some guys like me. Some don't. Christ, we're not, to use the buzzword of the week, entitled to the attentions of absolutely everyone we want it from.
I've been trying Match.com lately, and while I didn't connect it to this prior to this post, I realize now I've been very consciously avoiding Nice Guys. Anyone who has rants in their profiles about those terrible women who don't respond to their winks (sort of like pokes on Facebook) or emails just got an automatic "moving along now" from me. One guy even had a huuuuge rant about all the women who went out with him once or twice and then never responded to him again - his theory is that they weren't really serious about dating and were just interested in getting a free dinner out of him. I was gobsmacked that he arrived at that conclusion, instead of thinking, "Maybe they just didn't like me, maybe we didn't click."
To make it even more entitled and priceless, he followed his rant up for a request that the women who email him have straight, white teeth.
Your comment reminded me that I keep seeing the "but we bought you dinner, you owe us sex/time/a relationship" thing coming up and every time I see it I'm like "woah, if it's that important to you, don't buy my meal in the first place - and if you already have and are disappointed that I'm not in bed with you, tell me and I'll pay you back and you can get out of my life."
""I tend to give flat-out nos, but it doesn't seem to elicit any more respect than women who don't. It just speeds up the process of them declaring me shallow and bitchy.""
I disagree. I have many friends who claim that men just quickly label them "bitch" and/or "shallow" when saying no directly. Which I found weird, why does it happend to them, I've never seen it myself or with other friends.
So I go out with these people, and yes, they say no, and they say it directly, but they say it with
- A condescending tone
- Rolling their eyes
- A body-language that suggests she just had a whiff of something disgusting
Its extremely rare that if a NO is said with respect, compassion and understanding, that it meets hostility.
Sure as hell hasn't been rare for me. It hasn't been the majority of the time, but it definitely hasn't been rare.
I am SOOO glad that you are here to tell us how we REALLY acted when we turned those men down and to tell us how they REALLY responded b/c being there in person and all, we couldn't possibly what REALLY happened. You know, you are being quite a jerk with the way you keep denying people's experience with rejecting men.
On behalf of men who don't like and try not to play mindgames, thank you for the direct noes.
wow. i have definitely dealt with men like this. actually, more than i can count during the course of my life. it seems much easier to blame the woman/girl than to blame yourself for being too lame/weird/unfortunately scary to date.
Because we all know that best way to get a woman who turne you down to change her is to call her a bitch.
In all seriousness, though, it is absolutely terrifing how quickly some men can go from polite flirting to possibly homicidal when they get rejected.
That first line should be 'change her mind'
"I didn't have the heart to give him a flat-out 'no.'"
Um, something tells me that it wasn't so much "didn't have the heart" as "got a whif of this guy's aggressive assholishness and didn't want to have him unload that anger and assholishness when I was standing right there." Yeah, flat-out no's are great, except when you're not sure if you're talking to Ricky Ticky Timebomb.
I mean, to go directly from "wanna get together sometime" to "fine, be a bitch then" in such a breathtakingly-short period of time is a real feat. Not exactly the sort of behavior that comes out of left field with no warning.
""Um, something tells me that it wasn't so much "didn't have the heart" as "got a whif of this guy's aggressive assholishness and didn't want to have him unload that anger and assholishness when I was standing right there."""
Except she didn't say NO in 1 further conversation that was not in person. She had an entire conversation where she "hoping he'd get the message".
No, what she had was another conversation where she obviously thought her disinterest was clear. And even if it wasn't, look at the time stamps on these text messages. She doesn't answer in less than 6 hours, so he starts calling her a bitch. She understandably doesn't respond to that, so he keeps flipping the fuck out. This guy is a fucking nutcase.
The guy is a nutcase.
That doesn't change my point which you confirmed. She thought he got the message, but never actually said "no". She had a conversation with him where she was "hoping" he'd got the message. Who ever "hopes" after saying N-O.
She thought she was clear, which means she obviously said something to the effect of 'no'. But it doesn't matter anyway, since a guy who flips out this much over a six hour lapse in text responses does not hear the word no whether it's spoken or not.
She thought--i.e. not hoped--she was clear, which means she obviously said something to the effect of 'no'. But it doesn't matter anyway, since a guy who flips out this much over a six hour lapse in text responses does not hear the word no whether it's spoken or not.
There are so many ways women are socialized not to give a direct no. Just in case you are encountering the sort of man who flips from "want to go out" to "2 weak 2 defend yourself" in seven hours-- the sort of man who might do you physical harm then and there is you deliver a direct no.
So you know, no, I don't think the lesson here is that she deserved this insanity for not saying a direct no.
Saying no right then and there is hard, but it's for the best. In a bar, there are bartenders and patrons around to back you up when someone harasses you. If he started yelling at her and said all of those things he said in the text messages at the bar, he'd be thrown out. Maybe he wouldn't have said that stuff in public, since it's very easy to unleash your inner asshole behind the cover of a cell phone.
That's taking a lot on faith. What if the mob sided with him, and not you?
It's extremely unlikely that every person in a bar, including the bartenders, would allow that type of behavior to go on.
Did you see that video of two gay actors making out in a bar and a homophobic actor making disgusting comments to the unsuspecting patrons around him? Some people giggled uncomfortably at his hate speech, and others told him off. Nobody started harassing the gay guys with him. Most people simply aren't that obnoxious in public, even if they have disgusting thoughts in their brains.
Or maybe he could have gone outside and waited around the corner...I just think trusting your gut instinct in these cases is the best bet with no clear "best choice" in every case. I had a friend who was punched in the face hard enough to require surgery by a dude in a bar who didn't know how to take "no" as an answer so I disagree that just cause you're in a bar you are safe.
Stop "giving hints", start saying no.
Saying no is #1 not easy and #2 not always effective either.
I've said no to guys before and sometimes that in and of itself makes me a "bitch." So then I've tried to let them down more gently while still saying a clear no. That has turned into the guy thinking he can change my mind. Ugh, that's frustrating. In the end, I still end up being the "bitch."
My best friend got hit on by her real estate agent. First off, it was completely unprofessional of him so it put her off and secondly, she just wasn't interested in him in the first place. She told him she did not want to go out with him and that they should just keep it professional. Did that stop him from constantly texting her and asking for dates? No. She had to keep politely talking to him however because of their business relationship. Once she responded saying she had other plans (which wasn't a lie) to which he simply replied "Tough Shit." Why does this man, who she's already turned down, think he's entitled to a date with her? And being so aggressive about it is downright scary. I've advised her to speak to his supervisor and switch agents.
"""Saying no is #1 not easy and #2 not always effective either. """
Its more effective than postponing with "hinting" and "hoping he gets the message".
The fact that it doesn't "always work", is hardly a reason for not using something that works much better.
==
since we're into anecdotal stories
--
I have a friend who NEVER ever has had a bad reaction, and she gets hit on like 10 times a day. I'm serious. Of course, she says no to each and every single one of them.
She lives in the exact same city as all these other friends of mine, who wonder why they always get bad reactions to their NOs.
Its in the attitude, tonality. Not the actual no.
It's not always the attitude and tonality. That's just like saying, well it's the girls' faults because they're just rejecting them they wrong way (as if every guy responds to the same attitudes and tones in the first place?). Now we're saying "no" wrong? It's getting waaaay to nitpicky if you ask me.
If the guy you're talking to is a huge entitled jackass it doesn't really matter what tone you use when you say "no." It doesn't matter HOW you let him down, he's still going to think it's because you're a big bitch. And in some of the more severe cases he'll stalk and harass you because of it.
You're twisting my point.
Let's talk about firing employees. Most people feel hurt and lash out at the employer in equal levels.
If I say that the employer should take into consideration the way the rejection is done, am I saying the employer is wrong for rejecting or that its the employer's fault?
Heck, it could be the worst employee on the planet, but that doesn't change the employer's tactic changes the outcome.
Bad analogy. An employer has an established relationship with an employee. A woman does not have an established relationship with a dude who hits on her. Thus she has no obligation to reject him in a way that soothes his feelings.
You're absolutely right that it depends on the guy. There was a time when I WAS a total bitch when I turned a guy down (due mostly to a misunderstanding) and he never asked me out again. On the other hand, I politely told one guy no and actually gave him a legitimate reason (moving away in a month), and he asked again like 15 seconds later. Um, I haven't changed my mind in a minute, buddy.
All my female friends and myself can attest to llevinso's statement that saying "no" in a gentle, respectful way results in the guy continuing to bother us.
Further, I think people are missing the fact that women and girls are socialized to not rock the boat, to be nice and agreeable and that for many women, telling someone a flat-out, firm "no" is extremely difficult. Furthermore, everyone has been rejected by someone at some point. Yes it stings. No you are not allowed to call the total stranger vile names for doing so. Be a human being.
All my female friends can attest to the fact that they never get hostile responses or even a bad reaction when they say no in a respectful manner.
Its about being firm+strong+direct+gentle.
Most people who claim they gave a gentle-no... but kept being pursued... really were just giving hints... like "Oh, mmmm I think I might not be able to make it" or "No, I'm not really thirsty" or such. That's not a NO.
No, is N-O, I'm not interested, but thank you.
Really? Never? Not once? I call bullshit on you having female friends.
Ok, I did BS. Make that 99% of the time it doesn't happen, not "never"
Large enough in comparison to others who get negative reactions like 50% of the time.
The point remains, there are huge individual differences.
Do you live in some kind of magical parallel universe where the persistence level of men in bars doesn't increase proportionally to their BAC?
Now you're just saying that we're basically not telling the truth. We say we clearly say no but apparently, according to you, it's obviously not in a respectful way. Or we were hinting around it and never said a clear no. Otherwise why would the guy be acting so crazy?
*cough cough* ENTITLEMENT! *cough cough*
It's getting pretty condescending to be honest.
But hey, don't take my word for it. Please, read what I wrote and then decide for yourself what my own experiences have really been like.
You are proving the point of the OP-- it's about entitlement. The manner in which the rejection is delivered counts for shit. The rage for these dudes is about being REJECTED when they feel they are owed something, period.
I'm sure that, as a man, you have great insight into the female psyche, and that all your female friends have reported to you that men are always cool to deal with. I'm even more sure this story is 100% made up.
The fact that it doesn't "always work", is hardly a reason for not using something that works much better.
Well, and a bunch of women are telling you what works better for them. So the fact that brushing someone off indirectly doesn't always work is hardly a reason not to use it based on your male anecdata.
Or maybe you're not actually interested in believing what women have to say about the experiences they live?
Is this really the cross you want to die on?
A lot of men do not accept "no" anyway! A guy who is going to react this way is not going to smile and walk away from a woman who says "no." He's going to flip his shit either way. Trust, it is often scary to say "no" to a man's face because too many of them fly off the handle.
If you want women to start saying "no" then you better start making this world a safer place for them to express their true feelings.
I definitely agree. Lots of people don't get hints or think you just want them to pursue them more. Some posters say that you shouldn't say no because some men still won't leave you alone. I think that's a pretty bad attitude though. A lot of guys will go away after you give a clear no and they deserve an unambiguous answer anyway. If no doesn't work you can ramp it up to fuck off.
riiiiight. if we just used the word 'no', no one would ever hurt/insult us. why didn't we think of that earlier?
""riiiiight. if we just used the word 'no', no one would ever hurt/insult us.""
Sarcasm always works for ignoring subtleties and fine distinctions when we decide to over-simplify the world.
If you claim hints never solve the problem, but you have to resort to saying NO to the problem eventually.
Then why isn't it just wiser to say no from the get-go? In what area of life does post-poning the problem ever work?
you're simplifying a totally un-simple situation. as if saying 'no' works any better than being subtle. most of us have tried both. some of us that said no have been killed for it. women are taught to be "nice". not being liked is a CURSE that means you are a failure. so we are socialized to not say NO. that doesn't mean we don't try. it's just people don't seem to care when we say no ANYWAY. i do not want to have a semantics argument with you about words when really what we are talking about is overall treatment and opinions of women being 'available' for men, no matter HOW they try and turn them down.
and i have every right to give a sarcastic response to such a generalization.
Of course you have the right to reply with sarcasm.
I also have the right to give my opinion of what sarcasm.
My question is simple:
- Why are there women who are always direct, and always say no up-front... but don't get hostile reactions?
i guess they must be lucky. plain and simple. and that's my honest answer. you know what? not everyone gets the socially appropriate response to their actions. i think sometimes guys just take rejection, sweet or nasty, too personally and get too pissed off about it. that isn't a girls' fault.
In my experience, hitting on and catcalling culture vary drastically from city to city. The experience of your friends, even if it is representative of the city you live in, may not be repersentative of the cities where other people on this blog live.Where I live now I probably get non-hostile reactions nine out of ten times. But utlizing the exact same approach in the last city I lived I would get called something horrible at least half of the time. Norms differ from area to area, and in many places in this country verbal abuse of women who reject you is totally normal.
Even in terms of your friend's experience: 10 times a day would probably be a little high for me, but I am gonna say I get hit on a minimum of six times per day. Even assuming a 90% non-hostile reaction rate, which is really generous, that means that at least once every other day I get verbally abused by a stranger for politely telling them that I'm not interested. Don't you think that reacting to that problem would be more effective then telling women to reject men differently? To my boyfriend it would be a rare occurance that someone called him an incredibly offensive explitive in public, yet to me it happens every other day at best. And that, again, is assuming a 90% non-hostile response rate, so don't try to tell me that I'm doing something wrong.
On that note, I just have to say this. You may just be trying to make a point or ask a question about why your friend's experience differs from that of other people. But the way you are doing it comes off as condescending because you are assuming that other people on this blog must be interpreting their own experience innacuratley if they differ from the one you are talking about. I am honestly not sure if you are a troll or not, because on one level you seem to ask questinos, but you also seem to think you know more than other people about their owm experiences.
All of this commenter's posts just illustrate how there's NO RIGHT WAY that we can turn unwanted attention down without being labeled a bitch.
If we hint around, well, then we should just say no instead. But if we say no, then we have to do it with the RIGHT tone and the RIGHT body language.
Which of course, I might add, will be interpreted differently by every man who it gets used on. Maybe we were politely toned but we DIDN'T SMILE. Or we smiled but it was a MOCKING SMILE. Or if we're firm yet polite then it will be considered BITCHY. Or if it's polite and perfect, then it signals that we're open to being nudged in the direction of saying yes. At which point a second and third "no" get even more forceful and then suddenly, we're a bitch.
In other words, all along we're being told, "DANCE, FUCKING PUPPET, DANCE." It's the rejection, straight up, not how the rejection was delivered.
You've touched on such an important point that I think, unfortunately, is lost on so many, including the poster you're replying to.
Women are CONDITIONED to be nice. I think that is one of the main reasons we try to "let men down easy" or give them hints that we're not interested instead of simply saying no. We're not supposed to be assertive like that. I mean, this is Feminism 101 stuff. We overstep those bounds and all of a sudden we're a bitch. There's no real way to win.
I agree with you that women are conditioned to be nice and overly-agreeing. I agree this hurts women.
What I am pointing out is that however that when women finally escape that role they tend to overcompensate to the other extreme.
Most women go from overly-nice to "screw you if you can't take no for an answer"
There is a middle-ground.
Okay, you're obviously not a woman?
I'm assertive, but polite I think.
I've had guys go crazy on me, even as others take the rejection well.
Your friend whose never had a bad reaction? Maybe she's lucky, or maybe she has a different definition of bad reaction than I do.
However, the point would be that men who are offended by being turned down, no matter how they're turned down, are expressing a form of entitlement.
The boss-employee scenario you talk about? The boss actually has some legal obligations to his employee. There are certain reasons for which he or she is not allowed to fire him or her, for instance.
You have no obligation, as a woman, to random guys in a bar or on a street. If I'm trying to hit on a guy in a bar (yeah I've done it) I'm not going to act like an asshole if he's disinterested, I'm going to feel like an ass. And that's a big difference, I feel, in how many men and women are socialized.
No, seriously, if they can't take no for an answer, screw them.
Most women go from overly-nice to "screw you if you can't take no for an answer"
There is a middle-ground.
Oh christ, now we have to add more to the puzzle. We shouldn't be "overly-nice" but still reject using, "respect, compassion and understanding" according to your first comment up above. And then once we do that, and we get ignored, we shouldn't get pissed. We should do what, exactly, since this magical politeness you've been expousing up until now didn't work? And this mysterious middle ground, what does it contain? Where in the middle DOES work? Closer to "overly-nice"? Closer to "screw you if you can't take no for an answer"?
Please, just stop. It's a fucking joke.
Whoops, italics cut off early, they should extend to include "There is a middle-ground."
Oh no! It's the tone argument! Ladies, consider yourself chastened.
There are days when I am thankful for being Deaf. I can pretend to be mute or not understand if an annoying, repulsive man approaches me and tries to flirt with me.
Oh man, sometimes I've gotten the WORST harassment from guys when I can't hear them in very loud bars. I'm not deaf, but I do have a severe hearing impairment, and if a guy approaches me and says something and I say, "I'm sorry, I can't hear you," their response is to put their lips right next to my ear to try to speak directly into my ear. WELL, that just removes my ability to see their lips moving (I can't read lips, but seeing lips moving in conjunction with hearing what they're saying is essential for me to understand conversations), so I'll pull back and shake my head and point to my ear and say, "I can't hear you, I'm sorry."
At which point I sometimes get a disgusted look, a dismissive wave of the hand, and a "Fine then, bitch."
haha, I've been there when those morons would whisper to me in my ear (didn't they see my hearing aid?!). I also read lips, so I need to look at someone's face when they speak.
my friends have told me that I've been called a BITCH and SLUT whenever I'd walk outside and guys would call out to me, but I didn't hear them, then they'd insult me, at which my friends would yell back at those assholes. I'm glad I have friends who stick up for me.
Ha, the last time I got approached by a random creepy guy in the street he left me alone after I kept telling him I couldn't understand what he was saying - I'm not deaf or hard-of-hearing but there's still something that occasionally wreaks merry havoc with my ability to understand spoken language. I never thought it would actually be useful one day, but man, was I glad that I didn't have to engage with that guy.
This is part of the reason I hardly go to busy bars anymore. I'm small and soft spoken, and I do reject very nicely, which results in either a) Being called a bitch, b) if lets say a guy was trying to get me to dance (I just don't dance, doesn't matter who asks) they try to drag me to the dance floor anyway or worse, c) guy gets violent.
Its really sad too because while bartenders and bouncers will side with me, there's a group of girls I don't hang out with anymore because they think I'm being a prude.
"Check this out from PassiveAgressiveNotes.com..."
Yeah, why don't I do exactly that?
To begin with I would like to make it clear that I'm not judging or saying what women deserve, I'm discussing tactics on how to deal with this situation.
I've been in this situation and given my information out when I shouldn't have. I've also paid the price for it. Your contact information...anyone's contact information is not public domain. You don't have to give it out. If someone is giving you bad vibe it's much safer to say 'No' and risk a poor reaction in public then it is to give him your information so he can talk to you privately. If he wants to call you names and get butthurt, force him to do it in public, in front of witnesses. Especially if you think he might get violent about it.
Most stalkers are bullies and bullies don't like to fight. They like beat to people up, whether it's emotional, physical, or sexual. If you give them a fight right off, they'll go away quicker.
To begin with I would like to make it clear that I'm not judging or saying what women deserve, I'm discussing tactics on how to deal with this situation.
I've been in this situation and given my information out when I shouldn't have. I've also paid the price for it. Your contact information...anyone's contact information is not public domain. You don't have to give it out. If someone is giving you bad vibe it's much safer to say 'No' and risk a poor reaction in public then it is to give him your information so he can talk to you privately. If he wants to call you names and get butthurt, force him to do it in public, in front of witnesses. Especially if you think he might get violent about it.
Most stalkers are bullies and bullies don't like to fight. They like beat to people up, whether it's emotional, physical, or sexual. If you give them a fight right off, they'll go away quicker.
I think no matter what women do we are wrong. I have very rarely met a man, especially one who is almost for certain drunk if you are at a bar, who takes rejection well. All men have this sense of entitlement istilled into them from the time they are little the way girls have it instilled in them that we are always to say "no" to sex but a definite yes to whoever wants to take us out to dinner, no matter if we actually have chemistry with them or not. When women go against that the men who are asking them out ect. eiter get angry and start being violent (which is what happens most of the time) or they just start calling you things like "bitch" "prude" or "whore" (really would like to study why some men call you one while others call you two). We should have the right to say no without fear that one of these two things is going to happen, and because we can't, it results in situations like this all the time. Good luck to courtney and I hope that she figures out a way to get rid of him once and for all.
Why this is so hard:
Both men and women have have the right to define their own social experiences. But I do think the dominant trend in these conversation is the degradation of the traditionally feminine dating perspective brought upon by the extreme othering and sexual objectification in our culture.
I'll explain.
There is a tendency for men to see their experience in quantitative terms, i.e, number of rejections, hotness scale (1-10), number of advances, number of partners. Emotional self-preservation takes precedence.
There is a tendency for women to see their experience in qualitative terms. We tend to pick apart the interaction in detail and analyze each interaction on their own merit. Physical self-preservation takes precedence.
Of course these are trends with many exceptions and overlap. Both experiences are legitimate. But that's rarely how folks see things.
For example the default position on traditional courtship is that women are passive actors. Because the traditionally masculine perspective tends to focus on the quantitative side, then by definition, women--no matter what we say--really can't add anything to the conversation it would seem. Even so-called outlier women who discuss taking on the traditionally masculine role are told that they are social anomalies and their perspective is essentially rendered void.
In another problematic example, we are told that men cannot read our cryptic signals and body language, yet at the same time our tone and body language are the reason for us being verbally insulted.
These conversations will continue to be rendered highly ineffective so long as women's perspectives are being discounted and othered to these extremes that we are seeing. A little misunderstanding of course is to be expected, but what I'm seeing seems to be extreme.
"In another problematic example, we are told that men cannot read our cryptic signals and body language, yet at the same time our tone and body language are the reason for us being verbally insulted."
Haha, I love this point of yours and it's soooo true. I keep hearing (in this thread even) that guys apparently can't read our subtle hints so we need to be direct. But when we're direct we're giving off too many of these subtle signals that we're a bitch so then he can read those loud and clear!
Regarding "just say no," and "don't be a bitch."
How about this: let's apply the same rules of sexual initiation for dating or asking a woman out. If a woman says no, or is unsure about it, you stop. Is it so hard to, if a woman is reluctant to go out with you, or take a drink from you, to say "Well, if you change your mind, let me know," and then you walk away and leave her alone? Take a freaking hint. It's when dudes can't get the hint that women start becoming aggressive in their rejection.
Further, how about we start respecting women's property and do not just walk up to a woman, grab her phone, and dial in our number, so she has it?
You know the same boundries that some men ask for from gay men? Guys like Jason here need to start giving the boundries they ask for.
Marc -- I was sort of in the middle of writing a community page entry along these lines and I figured it would just devolve into a flamewar so I figured I would avoid it.
But I think a lot of it is the "Nice Guy" tendency to obsess over one woman. If you spend all your time and energy trying to get one woman to take an interest in you for the evening, it's not bloody likely you're going to be successful. Then you get frustrated and turn into Jason here.
If she says "no," or she's not really digging your action, the best way for you to acquit yourself is to excuse yourself politely and walk away. You can't bully her into liking you, but if she sees that you treat her with respect and don't act like a toddler when he's been told "no" she may actually think a little better of you if there's ever another opportunity to interact. In the meantime, you can go and hit up other women and maybe even impress one or two of them with your maturity.
You know, I find it rather sad that a safe space created for feminists - and particularly young women - has become a place where, because of misogyny apologists, young women (I am assuming you are one because of your name) have been silenced for fear of "flame wars."
Write away! :)
Oh, not that I don't appreciate the sentiment, but I wasn't so much worried about the misogyny apologists (which Feministing polices pretty well) as I am about feminists mis-interpreting the point of the post and an unholy shitstorm of outrage and reprisals resulting therefrom.
And bless your heart, young man. I've had the "Ponygirl" handle now for... um... close on to 20 years. I'm not as young as I was back when I first took it on. Now be a dear and hand me my Geritol and let me watch some Matlock. :D
I am just shocked that this Internet tube thing existed nearly 20 years ago. Consider my mind blown.
Not like it was now, at any rate. Ever hear of TN3270?
Do you need help "making the switch to digital"? Public Television said I should offer to help.
Yes means yes! --- I think this is apt here.
Why would a man want to go out on a date with a woman who isn't giving him the clear signal she wants to go on a date with him? I know, I know, for some, the woman's enjoyment is unimportant.
Use the same standard (most) feminists promote for sex: if there's no clear and meaningful consent, go away.
Hah! I was going to submit this PANotes for a post. I'm in the comments on this post frequently. Lots of ppl posting there are giving the perspective of "no matter what you do, you're still a bitch".
But there are still others saying "She was immature and should've just said 'no'. She led him on" It's frustrating.
I'm not sure if that's a Nice Guy™ and not just A Jerk (which is under Sharealike Creative Commons, unfortunately).
Surely a Nice Guy™ is someone who 'puts up' with the blanking and then congratulates himself for oh-so-generously extending the right to ignore him, all the while secretly building up resentment against the person he's done that 'for'.
Asks a woman out (at all!) and one that he doesn't know, nah, not remotely Nice Guyish. The real sort of defining character of a Nice Guy is that he doesn't ask women out because he thinks men have nothing to offer women.
Also, a Nice Guy™ would slowly and by increments befriend the girl with an ulterior motive and then resent the girl when she eventually rejects him for trying to turn a friendship into a relationship, because she's "betrayed" his feelings for her.
I think Nice Guy™ is a really great concept for men and women because it highlights how underlying sexist assumptions can make even seemingly positive actions actually quite pernicious and negative. But I think you have to be really accurate when you apply the concept else it looses it's specific meaning and becomes less useful.
Anyway, Brian. Assuming your username denotes you as male how would you have handled/role-play the situation?
What I would have done would be send her a message saying something like "Hi, remember me? I had the teddy boy hairstyle and the Transformers shirt at the club. I really liked talking to you so was wondering if you'd like to grab a coffee and a bagel sometime, and we can continue to bitch about celebrity magazines? See you soon J."
And then, here's my clever bit- I'd delete her number. That way I don't feel disappointed because I have a sent message on my phone that hasn't been replied to. When/if she does reply I feel a pleasant surprise and can save it then. It's only human to feel blue if someone you like doesn't get back to you, so you just take care of your feelings by not making it worse.
If I was Court I would have probably met him and then later texted him to say he wasn't my type, or texted in reply: "Sorry I don't think you're really my type- but it was nice meeting you and good luck in the future." It is actually harsh (albeit in the nicest possible way), but sometimes you have to bite the bullet and be harsh. Ironically, Court was being passive aggressive (in a very normal and understandable way) by not responding- but she clearly had to right idea to keep clear of that guy.
From the perspective of this male, a straight NO if a woman isn't interested in dating me is best.
Whether that's just a 'NO', or 'I've already got a boyfriend', or 'sorry, you're just not my type', or whatever, then fine. It's not going to happen. Yes, I'll be rejected, and maybe a little sad, but, that's my problem.
Yes, there are some assholes who just won't take no for an answer, but, that's their problem...such assholes will probobly be assholes whatever approach you take.
Rather than stringing the guy along, why not say "no"?
Women are socialized to be nice to everyone, even overbearing guys trying to hit on them.
But in cases like this, being nice just causes these problems. If you don't like the guy, just say no.
Please read the comments. This has been addressed over & over again. It's NOT JUST being socialized to be nice.
To keep telling women, "If you don't like the guy, just say no." is to ignore everything that's been said and totally not considering its validity
How to ask a woman out is one of those things I never quite figured out. Sometimes "would you like to go out for dinner" works. Sometimes not. Sometimes striking up a conversation at a bar works. Sometimes not. Sometimes I've had the pleasure of dating a woman I've been friends with and sometimes not.
I figured that was the point. Sometimes a woman likes a guy. Sometimes not. I never really thought it was more complicated than that.
Girls tell me the approach matters a lot. I don't ask women out, so I have no opinion of my own on the matter.
Aleks,
Well the approach matters but, well what works for one person turns another person off. That was sort of my point. There isn't any way to tell why someone finds you attractive and another person doesn't. Sometimes it works and sometimes not.
There isn't any rule, any secret, any code. There isn't any rhyme or any reason. This is as true for women as men. I said once somewhere else that twitterpation is a beautiful thing. I still believe that with all of the obstacles in the way of forming a relationship it's a miracle any of us meet and fall in love. Ever. or at all.
The "nice guys" that blame "women" as a group need to remember that old adage about finger pointing "for every one you point at me 3 point back at you." Same goes for everyone at various points in time regardless of race, gender, orientation, or status. We don't know what life has for us, but we have to be willing to accept it both good and bad.
Oh and the above comment was not meant to privelege one group of people over any other.
Same rules apply for everyone. Only an insecure person blames another person for their faults. For the rest of us well it really is amazing that we manage to fall in love. Gay, Straight, trans, whatever. The fact that someone meets someone else and falls in love is a miracle.
I think people forget that. Especially the kind of people that leave text messages like the one that sparked this thread.
I do not give two shits if he thinks I'm a bitch if he'll leave me the fuck alone. I was nice and friendly to our office's UPS guy until he asked me if I shopped at Victoria's Secret, and now he does not get a smile and "how are you?" anymore. If he makes any more inappropriate comments, I will be reporting his ass to his supervisor and requesting a new delivery man.
Embrace the bitchiness if it works for you, I say.
This whole conversation reminds me of a paper by Susan Ehrlich about a rape case at the University of Toronto.You can find it here if you have access: http://das.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/9/2/149
The tribunal council constantly asks whether there was a miss-match of communication, putting the blame on the women involved because they did not make themselves clear enough. It gave the impression that the tribunal were practially condoning the guy's actions because, obviously, he is entitled to sex if the woman doesn't say no at every possible point!
I have to admit I'm quite aggressive when a man approches me in public to ask me out. I always feel violated. I'm a really shy person and I have a generalised anxiety disorder. That sort of confrontation with a guy can leave me shakey for hours or days after it. It's why I love my ipod.
I once had a guy approch me when I was 15 and on my way home from school and ask me if I wanted have sex with him. I blew up.
I think at least part of the problem is that women are cast as the passive party in all courtship. We're supposed to wait to be asked out. Then we gatekeep picking and choosing who we'll go out with. Heterosexual relatonships are so constraining that I don't know if I want to bother. To be honest I don't think I'd ever go out with any person who just sidled up to me and asked me out.
I've always wondered... does ANYBODY, EVER, in the history of the entire fucking universe, ACTUALLY go out with totally random strangers who just sidle up to them on the street and go "hey baby can I have your number"? 'Cos that just sounds like a Class A death wish to me.
Or maybe he could have gone outside and waited around the corner...I just think trusting your gut instinct in these cases is the best bet with no clear "best choice" in every case. I had a friend who was punched in the face hard enough to require surgery by a dude in a bar who didn't know how to take "no" as an answer so I disagree that just cause you're in a bar you are safe.
Sorry, this was supposed to be a reply to backofbuseleven's comment that turning him down in the bar would have been a better choice...my comment doesn't make much sense when not viewed as a response.
I'm not sure I understand the headline "Speaking of Nice Guys." It's clear enough that he isn't a nice guy.
Is the implication that this anecdote proves that there are no nice guys? Or that there is no such thing as nice guy who is unsuccessful with women in part because he doesn't feel comfortable hitting on them?
I just took the headline to be sarcastic....(the meaning being that this guy is/was not a nice guy)
Ok-spoke to soon, it is also, I believe, a reference to this site:http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml
I can't believe we had to have a discussion about how a woman should say "NO". Nobody deserves verbal abuse. I don't care if the woman grimaced and rolled her eyes or hinted at "no" and then ignored or said "no" and offered no explantation or used whatever tone.....Having to defend how we say "no" implies that there is a right and wrong way (which is not true and I have said "no" in a variety of ways and gotten negative responses for a lot of them) and takes the blame away from the name calling asshole and puts it on the woman cause she must not have said "no" in the right way...It reminds me of those ridiculous conversations over what the woman who got raped was wearing, if she flirted with the rapist or if she "should" have been walking that street at that time.... The blame lies with this guy and only him (he is the only one responsible for his behavior) and unless Courtney asks for tips with dealing with guys like this then I don't see the point in discussing how she "should" have said no. If she wants she is entitled to roll her eyes and grimace and use a condescending tone without receiving verbal abuse. Is that a nice thing to do? No... (and she didn't do that) but regardless, this guy is still responsible for his behavior. Plus, I want to point out that simply "hinting" at no may be used as a reason why a guy may ask a girl out more than once for a date if he really is the type of personality horrible at social skills or "reading" social language, but at no time does it explain calling a woman a "bitch".
A few people have already asked this and I'm kind of late but how is that being a nice guy? A nice guy is the guy who is too clingy too early and bends over himself to get a date with someone. A nice guy would have gone all out on the first date, wondered why she wasn't interested in a second, and then tried even harder to get her to go out with him. "He seemed harmless enough" is the only thing we get from this post. His creepiness was misogynistic psychotic jerk creepiness, not desperate needy nice guy creepiness.
I just took the headline to be sarcastic....