Well, it certainly won't help these misguided Medicare recipients that there are professional loud-mouthed liars, completely indifferent to ideas like "facts" and "reality," lying as hard as they can about the proposed bill, such as the contemptible Sarah Palin. Especially when all the news media are content to approvingly echo their absurd fabrications without any effort at fact-checking them first.

i had a nice conversation with a co-worker yesterday. she tends to be the "leans conservative mostly because she doesn't pay too much attention" type. she would definitely be one of the "not as louds", but she's been listening lately and realized that it might not be as bad. she looked at the bill for a recent EKG she had and had a little moment herself where she realized how much it would suck to have to pay that whole bill on her own and how lucky she was to have her insurance. that combined with a little talking from me to convince her that HER insurance won't change one wit if she doesn't want it, and all of a sudden we had a convert!

normally, i don't have a lot of hope for the ill-informed because they tend to WANT to be that way, but this was a nice "teachable moment" that went well.

SharkFu,

Thank you. It's really true... we believe and trust that to which we're exposed. Seeing that folks who oppose a more sensible healthcare package are, for the most part, normal, reasonable human beings who've been duped is critical. And, shoot, who hasn't been duped about something? I once got took for close to a grand; does it make me a bad person?

I think you're absolutely right. We have to look through the antagonism that's being put out there and really stretch to ally with all of our brothers and sisters being screwed by the insurance companies and drug manufacturers.

Not just about healthcare, of course... but I've got to disagree with the sentiment that "the ill-informed... WANT to be that way." People who are ill-informed act on the information they have - just like you or I. I mean, they have no motivator for desiring to be "ill-informed;" but, on the other hand, there are well-funded outreach machines that manipulate people into falling for this misinformation.

And, well, I get a little frustrated by my allies assuming some kind of superiority to others. It's kind of understandable as you think, "who the fuck would believe this death panel bullshit?" But, then, how many people, on the left and the right, fell for the Evil Empire crap or the Axis of Evil crap? Thoughtful, well-meaning, ignorant people abound! (I know because I am one, maybe not about healthcare, but about plenty.)

Oh, yeah, and I love the phrase "No Home Training team"... that's a keeper.

peace and blessings

Amen. I was saying something similar this morning to a colleague, asking semi-rhetorically that when was it that we started paying most of the attention to the loudmouths and footstompers and screamers who don't want to learn/ask/discuss/problem solve but just want to throw a tantrum and disrupt the thinking of the rest of us, who are at least trying to chip away at understanding and fixing?!?

It DID remind me of childhood, when someone pitching a fit and falling in it got banished to do so without benefit of an audience while the rest of the family (who knew how to behave) went about their business. No Home Training team is a perfect metaphor.

I'm going to the town meeting with my local rep tonight and will try to put my analytical mind to work with those who may be skeptical but are open to tacking a tough problem!

Most people get their information from soundbites rather than even a small amount of research. It's a way to appear informed without doing any work/thinking, simply parroting what someone on "their side" said. I have no problem debating the merits of government health care with someone who has objections to the actual policies but so far everyone I've encountered holds beliefs that range from gross misconceptions to flat out lies.

I wouldn't assume that these huge groups of people are so stupid they don't realize Medicare is a government program. It's much more likely they're selfish and don't want to share it with younger age cohorts.

"... lying as hard as they can about the proposed bill, such as the contemptible Sarah Palin."

"It's kind of understandable as you think, 'who the fuck would believe this death panel bullshit?'"

If it didn't exist, then why was it recently removed? From August 13:

"The Senate Finance Committee will drop a controversial provision on consultations for end-of-life care from its proposed healthcare bill, its top Republican member said Thursday.

The committee, which has worked on putting together a bipartisan healthcare reform bill, will drop the controversial provision after it was derided by conservatives as “death panels” to encourage euthanasia."

"The Not as Louds are the opponents of health care reform who are against it because they do not understand it..."

I agree with that statement mostly because Obama has spoken about the reform plan in generalities. People don't understand the bill because it has been presented poorly. Every time Obama has spoken in front of news cameras about the health care reform plan we have walked away no more knowledgeable than when we began.

Can you blame someone for being upset that something very important in their lives is about to be reformed and it can't be explained in specifics?

I have tried to understand the bill before the House, HR 3200, myself so that I could discuss specifics about it with people I know. The legalese has made my head hurt trying to find out what it means. For example, health savings accounts and casostrophic health insurance will not be allowed because these plans do have at least "70% Actuarial" coverage. Took me a while to put just that tidbit in my head so that it made sense.

According to the bill, are you sure you will be able to keep the health insurance you have?