The Irish town of Irvinestown held a contest on Wednesday to decide who would win the championship of best "wolf whistler":
On Wednesday Irvinestown played host to Ireland's first ever wolf-whistling championships, complete with scaffolding, hard hats, and plenty of women.The men of the town were more than eager to show their appreciation of the fairer sex, eagerly donning hard hats and lining up along the pavement to demonstrate their whistling skills.
"We're all here for the good-looking women," joked Jimmy McKenna. "It just comes naturally."
"I'm 73," said Conal O'Hanlon, "and I'm still whistling away, still on the lookout."
Julian South came all the way from Staffordshire to whistle. "I heard the women were worth whistling at," he explained.
Interestingly, the contest was taken place at the town's annual Lady of the Lake Festival, where the community and their children come to enjoy each other. The Lady of the Lake is a mythical character who is supposed to be a good omen for the town. I wonder how she'd feel about being whistled at.
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To be fair, some women do LIKE being whistled at. I myself have never experienced it, though, and I hope I never do.
I wish the journalist who wrote the article, could have asked them, how THEY would feel if females wolf-whistle at them?
I don't mind a whistle every now and then, especially on those days I am feeling less than hot. On the contrary, it's when they open their mouth to actually speak and nothing but stupidity rols out that I actually have a problem. LOL
in lots of cultures, whistling, while establishing the macho hierarchy and the fact that women should be easy on the eyes, is perfectly normal. it's part of the culture. i agree it's tedious and sometimes offensive, but in cultures where it's practiced, ignoring the whistles comes with the game; it's as natural for women to brush off the hoot as it is for the men to do it.
Just because it is perceived as natural and normal doesn't mean it should be. Nor does it mean that I should have to tolerate it. I'm generally a little more uptight than most women on this issue, but I really hate being cat-called or whistled at. I never know how to respond in a way that will convey my displeasure while not inciting further comment from the offenders--generally about how I'm a bitch/have a bad attitude/etc.
"Just because it is perceived as natural and normal doesn't mean it should be. Nor does it mean that I should have to tolerate it..."
Right on!
Loranne, there's a great response further down this thread from 'p0w3rful' with suggestions of responses.
I try to always shout back (I'm not generally a shouty or aggressive person, but street harassment pisses me off so much that I will yell and swear) and not let harassers get away with it - and I don't care if they think I'm a bitch. If their idea of a bitch is a woman who protests when she's harassed then I'm fine with that.
Hope you find something that works for you and helps make you feel better :)
I'm of two minds regarding this. Not wolf-whistling itself, ideally that would just stop, at least where total strangers are concerned. But I don't think most men realize what they are doing can make women uncomfortable or worse. Plenty of men still think its a compliment.
Just a couple of weeks ago I was at an Auto Zone getting new brake lights. While a store employee pulled the lights apart a man in a van drove by and pantomimed performing oral sex on a woman. It appropriately disgusted me, and I can't believe his intention was to do anything but offend me. A handful of minutes later, this kid in his early-twenties whistled at me. Compared to the obnoxious tongue-guy, this kid seemed almost gentlemanly in his throwback to the harassment of women.
I guess I don't consider whistling at a female a rude gesture anymore. Especially if its just a whistle and not accompanied by rude gestures, actual touching or a discussion of body parts. And I don't think its something only men do to women; when its been worth my time I've been known to openly ogle.
Two good rules for compliments
1. Have some idea if that compliement is going to be welcome. If you do not know the person, the bar is pretty high
2. Be genuine
The problem I see with the dog whistle is you do not know if it means "You look good" in an well meaning way or "I'd fuck you" or "I like making women uncomfortable."
What's the difference between "You look good" and "I'd fuck you"?
Intent. "You look good" is about the overall picture, i.e. wearing something atractive on you, walking with confidence, etc. "I'd fuck you" reduces a person to body parts.
In speaking to some of my male friends, "you look good" and "I'd fuck you" are one and the same. If they wouldn't fuck you, no matter how good you look, they wouldn't whistle. I don't think most men break down a whistle to mean more than what it is- an attempt to let you know he likes what he sees.
HUH???
I tell my mom, "You look good."
I don't tell my mom, "I'd fuck you."
One is complimenting someone on their appearance. The other is saying you're attracted to them.
It can also mean you want to dominate them, make them uncomfortable, objectify them, possess them...
But your mother is not a stranger of the opposite sex (assuming you are heterosexual, which is the scenario here). See my other comment for clarification.
But your mother is not a stranger of the opposite sex (assuming you are heterosexual, which is the scenario here). See my other comment for clarification.
That's what I was getting at to. When we're talking about STRANGERS at least.
A man can say "you look good" to a friend, sister, mother, etc. and it doesn't neccessarily mean i want to F you. But when said to a stranger I think it's is 100% equivalent to i want to F you.
Actually even for alot of women I think it's this way if you reverse genders.
Put slightly differently - and this applies to women including me - why would you 'you look good' NOT be the same as I want to F you when talking about a stranger of the gender you are attracted to?
If you think someone of the gender you are attracted to looks good - then why WOULDN'T you want to F someone you think looks good? Some reasons you wouldn't are if you don't like their personality, they are an asshole, etc. But since this a stranger you can't know any of those things about them, you only know their appearance.
It doesn't mean you actually would do it - maybe you're married, shy, scared of pregnancy, whatever - it just means that you would like to if the circumstances were right.
But if you like their appearance, then to me, by definition that means you want to F them. For me it does at least.
If you just like their outfit or their tie, then you can say "I like your tie". And that's different. But "you look good" means you like the whole package. Which to me implies there is a sexual attraction. Why wouldn't it?
I've never been interested in having sex with someone for physical reasons alone. Never ever. Maybe I'm abnormal, but I find the idea that physical appreciation in a stranger = desire for sex as baffling as you seem to find seperating the two out.
You're not alone. I find it entirely possible to think a stranger of the opposite sex looks good without wanting jump between the sheets with them. I also have handsome male platonic friends. *shrug*
Nobody is "abnormal" - that's just the way you are and your sexuality works.
As for me, if I see a physically attractive woman, I can totally imagine having sex with her, even if I don't know her at all.
I can also imagine having sex with a woman who I know personally, intensely dislike as a person, but find very physically attractive - and I have in fact had sex with women who I disliked as people, but found physically attractive.
To my mind, finding somebody sexually attractive and liking them as a person are two totally independent variables and they are totally not linked at all.
Thank you for explaining that!
To a lot of men, "you look good" and "I want to fuck you" are pretty much one and the same, there really isn't a difference at all in the minds of many men.
And, speaking for myself, women who may "look good" in some sense or other but who I don't find, for want of a better word, "fuckable" don't even really register - looking at them is just like looking at another guy on the street.
please don't use the word 'fuckable'. i know you said you were lacking a better word, but really, this word is abrasive.
it implies that there are two kinds of people, those worthy of being fucked, and those not. please, spare me your arbitrary judgement of who is and is not fuckable. we're all just people, man.
I have thought that people look good, but as someone who leans towards asexuality, I have never had the desire to have sex with anyone of them. It is pretty narrow minded to assume that one cannot admire a form without wanting to have sex with it.
Joan
Well my comments were meant to mostly reflect the "typical" male who is making these comments to strangers.
I recognize some people are asexual, and that some men and women aren't like this. But I think alot of men are, and so are alot of women.
I have a very high sex drive and sometimes I feel that as a result, my sexuality doesn't always match with the posters on here. Perhaps I do sometimes make too many assumptions about others, though this is getting off-topic. The main thrust of my comments were directed at the men who make these comments, and I think my analysis is very valid when analyzing such folks.
But do you really think the "typical male" who cat calls is really just trying to say, "hey I'd like to have sex with you"? If that's what they're doing then they must be complete morons because I have never in my entire life heard of someone actually being able to get laid this way. What's the point of telling someone you'd like to fuck them if there's essentially no chance that that could possibly happen.
What I think is actually going on is that these guys take pleasure in making women uncomfortable and in trying to assert power over them. And they probably also want everyone in ear shot to know how masculine they are. If the intent of catcalling is to compliment a woman and let her know he's attracted, then why do these guys usually just speed off, not even waiting to get a reply?
I once had a guy yell out at me, "Hey ugly, nice ass." What motivation could someone possibly have for saying something like that, if not to humiliate and degrade? Most cat calls I've gotten aren't openly insulting like that one, but even the "complementary" ones still make me feel like I'm being publicly humiliated and reduced to nothing more than a body part.
It's not that personal - it really has nothing to do with you at all.
It's basically bored horny men fantasizing out loud.
I can speak about the dynamics of New York City construction worker cat calling with some authority because I'm a male union carpenter in New York City.
In our case, basically, when we're sitting outside at lunchtime, we've been working hard for the last 5 hours, using our muscles and releasing all kinds of hormones that, among other things, make us feel very horny.
We're doing this in a mostly male setting - on a 100 person jobsite there might be one or two women construction workers, and maybe one or two women architects, project managers, facilities managers or site safety coordinators and 96 to 98 men.
So, when we feel very sexual in a very male setting, we need some kind of outlet for that.
Some of that sexual energy is released by making homoerotic jokes and comments towards co-workers during the work itself (NOBODY in construction ever talks about this, but most of us do it).
And some of that sexual energy gets released by staring at/making comments about women passersby while we sit outside to eat lunch.
This is especially true if you're working in the Financial District or Midtown, with lots of very well dressed attractive women walking by (ESPECIALLY in summer when women's businesswear gets a lot skimpier and women show more legs and cleavage).
I happen to think loud comments and whistling are rude so I don't do that - and of course any kind of unwanted touching is not only rude but a violation of human decency, not to mention a crime so to me that's totally beyond the pale - but I do look, and stare, and occasionally make comments to the other men once the woman is out of earshot.
We literally do not even think about how the women react to this - it's just us finding a sexual outlet for all those hormones our glands and muscles release while we're working.
Incidentally, if you're wondering, the official position of the construction trade unions is that we have a zero tolerance policy towards sexual harassment (and as a Carpenters Union shop steward I'm expected to enforce that)
Quietly and unofficially, the de facto union position is "keep the sexual harassment to a minimum" and that's how shop stewards enforce the policy in the field.
In practice, the priority is protecting tradeswomen from being harassed by their male coworkers - street harassment is a very low priority.
"It's not that personal - it really has nothing to do with you at all. It's basically bored horny men fantasizing out loud... We literally do not even think about how the women react to this"
Um, exactly. This is exactly the problem. It takes a very self-absorbed person to assume that strangers want to know about your sexual fantasies just because they happen to be existing in public. Can you not see how creepy and disgusting that is? The fact that these men don't care whether women enjoy it or not isn't a mitigating factor; it makes it much worse. Women have the right to walk around in public without being sexually harassed. Men do not have a right to sexually harass, no matter how horny or ignorant they are. There's just no getting around that.
"...street harassment is a very low priority."
I don't think any woman who's ever been out in public needs to be reminded of this. We already know.
In too many societies, women are taught that their validation and self worth comes from men telling them they are attractive. On the streets, this can come in the form of whistling and catcalling. While I find wolf whistling and catcalling offensive, I know some women do like it but I question if they like it because they have internalized that men validate them, and so being whistled at by men - like a dog I might add - brings that validation. I particularly note this when women say, I appreciate the whistling on days when I feel down or feel ugly.
Popular culture, including KIDS cartoons, make light of men whistling at women and make it seem normal and acceptable. While I'd place wolf whistling at the very end of the spectrum of gender-based violence and say it is the least harmful, I would place it on the spectrum. I believe it is part of the same mindset - in a more benign way - that makes men think it's okay to assault women.
I believe women should have the right to walk down the street without having strange men openly evaluate them based on their looks, apparent race, apparent sexual orientation, apparent age, apparent abilism etc. Having a contest that encourages and validates men's right and past time of whistling at women is counter productive to women's equality.
My thoughts exactly. But how do you respond when someone whistles at you? I walk to work every day along a busy street, and inevitably, some guy whistles at me or yells something at me every afternoon on the way home. Frankly, it makes me really uncomfortable. But how should I respond? Most of the guys just drive right on by, so I don't have time to respond, but some are stopped at lights or something. If I say something, I am a bitch; if I don't and just walk away, I am a bitch. I definitely don't want to say "Thank you" to them. The problem has gotten so bad that I walk out of my way to avoid the busy street as much as possible, but I do not think that that is fair. What should I do?
Flip 'em the bird? Drive-by harassment needs a quick nonverbal response. If they bother to stop and ask why you're giving them the finger, that's when you can tell them you're not there for decoration.
I'm so sorry and I completely sympathize. In one city I lived in, I used to get whistled/honked/kissynoised/catcalled at by men about 10 times an hour while I was running (I would count). It is very hard to respond to them for the reasons you stated (it can happen too fast for a response, when there is time they can get upset if you do and if you don't respond). For these and other reasons, ultimately, the effort to end harassment like wolf whistles will have to be placed on educating men not to engage in this behavior & making their harassing actions have consequences.
In the meantime, I haven't come across a perfect solution :( Martha Langelan is quite the guru on this area and there is good info from one of her workshops on this blog post: http://dontbesilent3.blogspot.com/2008/02/response-to-drive-by-hollas-drive-me.html It sucks that it's up to women to deal with it but I think creative ways like some she suggest could make an impact. Here are other suggestions: http://stopstreetharassment.com/tactics/index.htm
And some more brainstorming: You could talk to men in your life about your experiences and how upsetting it is to you and this could help raise their awareness. It may not mean you experience less harassment but it could help the overall problem.
You could take photos of the cars or write down the license plate #s and on the off chance you notice it's the same men, you could report them.
If you notice anyone who works for an identifiable company, you could call the company & tell them their worker is harassing women on company time (and note the location and time when you report it).
If the harassment is happening in certain locations, you could alert local businesses or police to that fact and they could watch for harassers or maybe post signs about it.
These suggestions all require time and energy of you/women when really it's men who need to stop their behavior, but taking action instead of doing nothing can be empowering and may make a difference. Good luck. You (& anyone else) can always contact me directly w/questions, stories, thoughts on street harassment
Why worry if they think you're a bitch? They just harassed you - they're not the kind of person whose opinion you should worry about. Be a bitch, shout back! It's fantastic once you get into the habit of it. No-one whistles or shouts at me these days without at least getting a FUCK YOU in response, and hopefully more, when I'm feeling coherent in my rage. The last guy who I told that I wasn't walking along the street looking to be harassed actually apologised and seemed to mean it - it didn't seem to have occurred to him before that it was unwelcome.
It might be scary the first time you shout back but they're generally so surprised that a woman'd yell back that they just look shocked and don't know what to do.
Sometimes being a bitch or at least being considered one can be empowering. To me it just means you're getting to them and the only way they can respond is calling you a bitch.
I get whistled at constantly. When I'm downtown, when I'm with friends at lunch, when I'm walking to school, at the mall, on the bus, the list goes on. I used to ignore it because I was always told if you're not getting attention there's something wrong but now my confidence has gone up since when I was in middle school and a freshman in high school that now I don't need a wolf whistle to validate me. And now I see that whistling is a sign that leans more towards disrespect than being complimented (because if they really wanted to say I was attractive they would approach me and tell me politely).
Now I say comments like fuck off, drop dead, I don't want you, get away from me, step off, leave me alone, and I don't want you and never will. Yes I get called a bitch. I have cussed out so many men that now my reputation downtown and near my school is I'm a bitch (the only difference is that near my school the men haven't cut me off but they now step with respect and treat me like a human being). Now am I upset about being a bitch no. I feel empowered that they do say those types of things to me because now it means that I have gotten under a lot of people's skin and that they can't handle a women (let alone a teenage girl) telling them that she's not going to take their crap. I feel empowered on that and a lot of people don't understand that but me.
I am responding to your post bc I was the one who previously mentioned not minding it, esp on days I feel "less than hot". (never ugly...lol)
I don't need the validation via a whistle OR a man to feel confident. I am confident enough to know that I do look good, and I think every woman should be comfortable with how she looks. If I am having a particularly bad hair day, or I feel like the good year blimp thanks to my period, and some random male whistles, well, what the heck. Whether it be because he finds me attractive, or because I am reminded that really, I look great despite my frizz, it doesn't matter. Point is, thanks for letting me know in your own way that you like me. That's as far as it goes for me.
Now, as for the whistle itself, I just don't get offended. Sorry. Should I? Who knows. But I don't. Now, if it offends you, then you have a right to feel offended. But as a woman, I also have a right NOT to feel offended. And not being offended by it shouldn't have to be a direct result of my own confidence or need for validation. Maybe I just like whistling, damn it.
I guess I just have an issue when feminists who say that every woman is different and has a right to like/not like something, but automatically assumes that because I like something that I shouldn't (though really, that's hypocritical don't you think?), that it must boil down to my confidence or being oppressed or whatever. Sometimes it's just not that deep.
What I said about women who like being whistled at was not directed at you. In nearly three years of research on street harassment, I've read it from a few others, though not always with much explanation, so thank you for explaining your thoughts on it.
To be cliche, humans are complex, our experiences are complex, and our views are complex and I've certainly found that to be true of women's opinions and experiences regarding street harassment. I know not all women dislike unsolicited sexualized or sexist male attention in public places like the street and public transportation, but I've found that most, particularly most who are not looking for approval from male strangers, seem to not like most of it. (related example, I've read several stories of women who said when they were a teenager they found it complimentary but now they do not. I consider myself in that category, in part because when i was a teenager my mom and aunts told me it was complimentary). So I find it frustrating that just because some women like it, those who don't like it have to deal with it because the men who do it say, "but she *pointing* likes it so it's okay for me to do this."
People LIKE being whistled at? I don't mind a compliment, but whistling has always felt predatory to me. It really triggers a flight response on me.
Yes!
The first time I was whistled at, I was 9 years old (3 years from puberty), standing outside of my house. The man (fully adult, late 20s early 30s) whistled, the proceeded to circle the block. The next time I saw his truck, I ran inside.
The next time I was heard whistling was later that year. An older (40s) man whistled at my 5 year old sister, again from an automobile. I grabbed her hand and took her back to my parents.
The last whistle I remembered was from a trucker in a semi that I was stuck next to in traffic. It kind of scared me because of the difference in size between our cars.
I've never experienced whistles from strangers as anything but predatory. Keep your whistles; I prefer not being scared.
"The Lady of the Lake is a mythical character who is supposed to be a good omen for the town."
I just came in to say: Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony. Oh, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you.
This comment made me really happy.
I know this is off topic, but I also love Spamalot.
Wow, reading this comments thread was like entering bizarro world. Is "some women like being whistled at" what passes for feminist discourse now? I bet a lot of women like getting whistled at because we live in a society that teaches women their worth is determined by hetero men. Jesus. This contest is really fucked up and to me it appears to be celebrating predatory male behavior.
Well, what can I say, while feminism is important, it is not the be all and tell all.
thank you. lately feministing has seemed really come off as a 101 blog or worse. it's really not interesting or enjoyable to look through these threads anymore :( I was hoping the new moderating policy would changes things, but I really am not seeing a lot of moderator participation to shut down offensive comments.
Ugh. This borders on triggering for me. I do not want their attention. I have had some bad, even frightening moments around catcalling and street harassment.
It's really embarrassing reading this as an Irish person - not least because the BBC article makes us out to be simple-minded country folk!
I have to say that in my 26 years (living in different counties) I've only experienced wolf-whistling (at me or at other women) a small handful of times.
Irish men don't spend most of their time wolf whistling at women, I can assure you! It's not something that Irish women generally encourage, personally it makes me feel uncomfortable, for reasons which have been mentioned above.
It is important to note that Irvinestown is in Northern Ireland, as opposed to the Republic of Ireland. I make this distinction not out of spite for the people of the region, but to emphasize the negative influence of English patriarchy on Irish culture manifest in the North.
Pre-colonial Irish/Hibernian culture was predicated on the notion that men and women are of equal and indiscriminate value. Most people are unaware that the national color of Ireland is not green for St. Patrick but blue for Virgin Mary, the national patron.
This heritage persists today throughout the free state, Eire (the "South"); for instance, while the U.S. is just now celebrating the election of a non-caucasian to the Presidency, Mary McAleese will celebrate her twelfth year as President of Ireland this coming October.
President McAleese is the second woman elected to the office. She is the world's first woman to succeed another woman as a democratically-elected head of state.