What We Missed.
Telling a country that their women are "the most beautiful" in the world is sexist, Joe Biden. You are VP, not judging a "where in the world are the hottest chicks" pageant.
Lindsay asks at RHReality Check, "Should Tiller's Assassin Be Charged As A Domestic Terrorist?"
Amanda on the media and health care reform.
Ta-Nehisi on the limits of our dialogue on race.
A few weeks old, but excellent piece from my friend in LA, Daisy Atlan about "How Pro-Life Activists and OC Supervisors Cut Off Funds to Planned Parenthood."
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Here is an interesting article about what Bruno-bashers have missed about the movie, "Bruno." I haven't seen the movie, though.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-bruno-bashers-have-mi_b_242364.html
Samitha,
about the VP thing - that's certainly quite a bit inappropriate and will probably lead to further diplomatic tensions with Venezuela, where I think it's a quite popular obsession to believe that the most beautiful girls in the world are Venezuelan ;), but why is it sexist to say that "[They're] the most beautiful women in the world. That's my observation,"?
I don't understand why you would think that's sexist. Inappropriate, sure. But sexist?
Samhita also thought people being sexually attracted to Barack Obama was racist.
Why do you bring this up every time Samhita posts? Your constantly telling people an oversimplified version of a past statement is a really dismissive silencing technique. You clearly disagreed with her on that issue-- but now we're discussing this week's news. Try to keep up.
Oh yes, and Brazilians are going to march outside our embassy.
but why is it sexist to say that"[They're] the most beautiful women in the world. That's my observation,"?
As Samhita said, he is a VP, not a pageant judge. For a head of state to make comments about the beauty of a countries women is completely inappropriate.
Why?
Yeah, I agree, it's completely inappropriate. There are a lot of inappropriate things that aren't sexist, though.
Turn it around. A head of state calls out the men of country X as being the highest status or having the best physique, with eyes perhaps glancing downward.
You find nothing sexist about that?
Girls I know frequently refer to Italian, French, or Latino men as the sexiest. It makes me a bit jealous, but should I be lecturing them about sexism?
Don't you see the difference between your peer and a head of state?
Regarding whether the comments themselves are sexist? No, I don't. Do you? Whether they're appropriate and dignified, sure.
I thought part of sexism was a power dynamic. But I guess not everybody recognizes that definition. For example I've had "compliments" (it was the 80's) blurted out by my teacher in front of an entire classroom. This was by far more powerful than a random comment here and there made by a peer.
That was very very inappropriate, unprofessional and immoral of the teacher. If that happened to my childq I would demand the teacher be fired, and I might break his nose too. I am a teacher, and the questionable comments I made when I was a student, and even some that were perfectly legit then, would be much more inappropriate if I made them now. Age difference aside, a teacher determines what grades a student gets, writes letters of recommendation, can initiate disciplinary action, etc.
I don't see how that makes Biden's compliment to Ukraine women sexist if say Ani DiFranco's compliment to French men isn't. What power dynamic? Do you think Biden was telling Ukrainian women to give him sexual favors or he'll have Obama sever trade and place an arms embargo?
Whether Biden's comments were objectionable is a call for Jill and the women of Ukraine to make.
But sexist? Why?
Well personally I think it kind of comes off as treating women like a natural resource or something.
Nailed it!
Because, to begin with, Joe Biden is vice president and what he says does matter. The remark was sexist because it objectifies women. It was harmful because the Ukraine is already known for its sex tourism, made by affluent, Western men who already buy into the tagline of the Ukraine having the sexiest women. The VP – and I love the man – in doing so, further feeds into that belief.
But as I mentioned earlier, while the comment was sexist, I don’t believe Biden himself is sexist. He puts his foot in his mouth a lot of times – but that’s just Biden.
"The remark was sexist because it objectifies women."
Remind me never to mention to my wife again how beautiful I find her. I don't want to objectify her!!
"It was harmful because the Ukraine is already known for its sex tourism, made by affluent, Western men who already buy into the tagline of the Ukraine having the sexiest women. The VP – and I love the man – in doing so, further feeds into that belief."
That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that.
Yeah, seriously. He probably shouldn't go around saying stuff like that, but I hardly think his comments qualify as sexist.
To those wondering about what makes Biden's comment sexist:
I think what makes it sexist is the context. Part of it is the fact that he's a head of state, as others have noted. But this alone does not make his statement sexist.
The culture we're in (and pretty much every other culture) has always valued women's bodies over their status as human beings. If we lived in a truly egalitarian culture that had long ago eradicated sexism (yeah, I can't picture it either) then his comment would simply be a comment, a harmless observation based on his personal preferences. Perhaps it would be inappropriate to the situation or to his position, but essentially harmless.
But since women have always been valued for their appearances and what they can do (for men) with their bodies his comment becomes sexist.
It's the same for the "erotic" furniture that I saw discussed on here a while back. When someone makes furniture depicting naked women's bodies - that is not inherently sexist. But making that furniture in a society that has a history of oppressing women, objectifying them, it is easily and often correctly interpreted as a sexist action that is rooted in misogyny.
I think Biden fucked up. I don't think he's a bad guy for saying it. Everyone says sexist bullshit sometimes. That's patriarchy for you.
Actions don't occur in vacuums. Context is vital to interpretation.
I also think singling out women from one part of the world and negating the others (in this case, conveniently a part of Europe) is also a bit racist.
There are beautiful people in every culture.
Saying that our Vice President, who wrote the violence against Women act, is sexist because he flattered a foreign country and its women is really a stretch.
Complimenting someone on their beauty isn't sexist, is a nice thing to do and a nice thing to hear. If he had said "these Ukarainian women are only worthwile because of how hot they are" that would have been sexist, but based on the story that was linked to he didn't say that, he just said they were very beautiful.
It's also a weird imposition of a strand of American culture onto Ukraine, where women's beauty is regarded more in like with Biden's comments than Samhita's conceptions.
Biden is Ukrainian now?
Nope. Where'd you get that idea from?
Cultural Imperialism!! It is not so bad when you do it.
Yeah, whenever some guy on the street yells "nice tits!" at me I just take it as a compliment!
Are you kidding? A compliment is something you say in order to make another person feel good about themselves. So many oppressive and hurtful sentiments can be wrapped up in a so-called compliment.
Sometimes it's difficult to tell what someone's intent is. I already wrote my feelings about this situation in a comment above. I don't think Biden is an asshole for what he said. Everyone is guilty of sexist words or actions. But I do think what he said was sexist. I don't think he himself is sexist or a misogynist. I just think he should have been more conscious of what he was saying.
I think our comments, often even our compliments, can easily come from a place of misogyny because we've all grown up in the patriarchy and have been indoctrinated this way.
Just like men who view women as "goddesses" and place them on a pedestal. Sure, it's flattering. But it's also denying us human status, holding us to unreasonable standards especially when it comes to our physical appearances, and placing greater value on our looks and bodies than any other feature we possess.
Again, my thoughts on this are earlier in the thread.
"Yeah, whenever some guy on the street yells "nice tits!" at me I just take it as a compliment!"
You can't possibly think that's a legit comparison to what Biden said. Really?
"Just like men who view women as "goddesses" and place them on a pedestal. Sure, it's flattering. But it's also denying us human status, holding us to unreasonable standards especially when it comes to our physical appearances, and placing greater value on our looks and bodies than any other feature we possess."
Chivalry means treating women as superiors because it's too difficult to treat them as equals.
Either you're joking or you're a troll. And you clearly didn't take anything away from my comment.
I don't agree with the idea that what Biden said was just a compliment. It was much more than that with numerous implications. Which I've already discussed. Clearly you're not interested in discussion.
I don't think someone yelling at me on the street is the same as what Biden said. I also don't think they're completely different. I think they are comparable because they come from similar places. I think Biden's statement was thoughtless, unintentionally sexist. When some guy yells at me it has a very clear intent, a very clear motive and origin.
Did you really not get that point from what I wrote? Or, as I suspect, are you just trying to silence any opposing viewpoints?
I don't know about "opposing viewpoints," but where do you get me trying to "silence" you? Did I for example call you a "troll" or any such ridiculous thing?
Biden made a politely phrased and general compliment. He didn't single out an individual stranger or use abusive, degrading, anatomical language. Now you're saying that you don't think saying "Ukrainian women are very beautiful" is entirely the same as shouting "nice tits" at a woman on the street, but that's not what you said first or what I was responding to.
taalibba said: Complimenting someone on their beauty isn't sexist, is a nice thing to do and a nice thing to hear. If he had said "these Ukarainian women are only worthwile because of how hot they are" that would have been sexist, but based on the story that was linked to he didn't say that, he just said they were very beautiful.
And your response was: Yeah, whenever some guy on the street yells "nice tits!" at me I just take it as a compliment!
If I were a human being (indulge the hypothetical for a moment) instead of a troll, would I have somehow known you somehow didn't mean that as analogous to Biden's comment?
Even if he mentioned the women in a group, how is this any different than Western men claiming that Latina or Asian women or Russian women are the sexiest of all women, and thus only date such women or travel to those country for sex tourism?
It's the same concept, on a different level. It categorizes women into groups, based on their ethnicities, and based on looks, and the last time I checked, that's sexist - and a bit racist, too.
Do you think Biden is only interested in Ukrainian women, or that he traveled there for sex tourism?
So is Barack Obama racist since he married a black woman?
seriously? that is your contribution?
"It categorizes women into groups, based on their ethnicities, and based on looks, and the last time I checked, that's sexist"
Marc - -
I think this is a dangerously vague and misguided understanding of sexism. And I've seen your comments many times so I know that you actually do know what sexism is, but the words you chose for this really bothered me - as an anthropologist especially. because categorization does NOT equal sexism (or racism), based on looks OR ethnicities. there are a whole host of other factors involved contextually such as power dynamics, culture, history, etc - and I do think you know this. The statement just really jumped out at me, I think it's really important to remember that categorization alone does not equal sexism, racism, etc. Depending on what people choose to DO with these categories - that CAN :)
"Yeah, whenever some guy on the street yells 'nice tits!' at me I just take it as a compliment!"
I'm sorry, did I say that?! Did he say that?!
Maybe its because I've never been on the scary side of this but the whole objectification thing has never been one of my hot button feminist issues. I think saying "you're beautiful" means "you're beautiful" and doesn't always have to have the connotation of "you must also be an idiot" or "you're only here to have sex with"
Joe Biden isn't a construction worker, nor do I think he was yelling "nice tits" at random Ukrainians on the street.
Assuming all men who ever say anything about how a women looks are potentially violent horndogs is pretty sexist, though.
RE "Tiller's killer":
Murder or destruction to advance the aims of a political agenda or influence public policy is pretty-much the definition of "terrorism". As he is from here and not abroad he is "domestic", ergo = "domestic terrorism".
Yeah, I'm honestly shocked that this is even a question that the country is asking. It's textbook. Unfortunately, I know in my circles of conservative family and friends, it's seen as a justifiable homicide, whether it's a terrorist attack or not. Disgusting.
This is the latest in the arrest of Henry Louis Gates in Cambridge:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/07/cambridge_polic_3.html
You really have to read all the articles from the beginning to understand the story, but I can't seem to find the earlier articles. Perhaps someone more skilled than I in searching boston.com can find them.
IMO, it's a case of intersecting privileges and power, race and class, cop and civilian. I don't doubt that the officer reacted to Gates based on Gates' race, but I detected a strong sense of privilege in Gates tone. Couple that with a police culture that expects submission from civvies, and disaster was the result. The comments, as always, are pure gold, if by gold you mean "make me throw up in my mouth." So many people who don't understand that blacks have a different experience with cops than whites.
Re: Joe Biden.
Biden's been known for putting his foot in his mouth, but in all, he's quite pro-women. In fact, he's my favorite politician.
I am not saying we cut him any slack; I am saying that, perhaps, the VP sometimes don't think before he says, rather than being sexist.
Re: Joe Biden
Looking at the above comments, I was trying to figure out a way to articulate why I was bothered by Biden's comments. I think it boils down to the idea that women are treated as status symbols/property rather than as people. It's like when people say "Your wife is hot!" in the exact same tone as they would say "Nice car!"
Saying that a country has the most beautiful women is sexist and treats women as if they are just part of the scenery rather than citizens. I don't find this to be complimentary or flattering.
I don't think Biden is sexist and I don't feel he should be raked over the coals for what he said, but I do think he's simply a product of our culture that normalizes the constant assessment of women's physical attractiveness. We've gotten used to people commenting on how women look, but just because it's common doesn't mean it isn't sexist.
I've always found this talk of this or that country having the most beautiful women rather stupid. First of all, any country has its share of beautiful and not-so-beautiful people. Second, whose criteria are we judging by? Apparently, the Ukraine is full of "statuesque blondes". Fine. What if I prefer small dark women?
The other thing that bothers me about this is that Biden, as far as I can see, did not actually compliment Ukrainian women on being beautiful. He complimented the country for having such beautiful women, which is the difference between telling me I look good or telling my boyfriend he has such a hot girlfriend. The second seems much more objectifying to me.
Why Biden's Comment is Sexist:
1. Because it was done in a professional capacity. Example: You tell your friend he has a nice ass, in your opinion. Not okay. You tell your male coworker the same, it's sexual harassment.
2. Valuing the women of the nation by their beauty is sexist. Seriously. Imagine if your boss said, "Our company has the most attractive gals." It's sexist b/c it's demeaning women to objects of beauty.
Why I have a problem with the comment in terms of race: Knowing that this administration has done so much girls of color, I just imagine them watching this clip and seeing the V.P. make this comment referring to a nation of mostly Snow-whitish and Aryan women. I find that troubling and reaffirming of old, damaging ideas about beauty. I mean, especially when you read it in connection with this crazy blond, fair lady.
------------------------------------------
About Comments Above:
1. What's up with people saying, "How can you call this guy sexist? He signed the [insert various woman-friendly bills/acts]?" ARE YOU SERIOUS? If anything we should know by now that all people can say racist, sexist things, and no one gets freebies on that.
2. What's up with the attacks on Samhita? I find it bothersome to see commenters refer to "Samhita once said..." Do you really keep track of this? I think it's problematic and representative of cyber-viciousness to have these feelings toward someone you don't know personally (and I assume you don't know her) who hasn't done anything horrible. I see a lot of people on here who seem to enjoy trying to project hostility targetting certain editors. I'm not saying that we don't all make mistakes, but it seems so personal. Why? There's a difference between dialogue and just looking to attack an online presence.
I don't know about you, but I have enough really bad people who I actually know in my day-to-day life; I don't need to villainize online editors or create strange, pseudo-personal hostilities toward them.
THANK YOU. Feministing comments have been really disturbing lately.
What grates about Biden's comment is that it's not like he was complimenting an individual women on her beauty. He wasn't talking TO the women, he was talking ABOUT them, as if they are inanimate objects. Like I said above, he makes women sound like natural resources and it comes off like he's complimenting the men on the beauty of "their" women.
In response to Tara K.:
When you claim that Biden’s comments are troubling because he is “… referring to a nation of mostly Snow-whitish and Aryan women (,)” are you trying to imply that Ukrainians are somehow related to Hitler’s master race. Because if that was your intent, I find your lack of historical information even more troubling.
During WWII Nazis marched across Ukraine decimating villages and taking countless prisoners. Some villages were exterminated and buried in mass graves. My own grandparents were numbered among the aforementioned prisoners. They were removed to Germany to work as slave laborers and they were interned in concentration camps. The German “Aryan race” women were too important to sully their hands when there were Slavic “dogs” to do the work.
When you lump Ukrainians into that “Aryan” category merely because you perceive them as “Snow-white”, you essentially dismiss the suffering of these people. I find it sick and insulting. It would be like claiming that a person from Afghanistan is a member of the Taliban by default of her national identity. Even if that person were, in fact, abused and victimized by the Taliban.
Further that “…crazy blond, fair lady,” is the prime minister of Ukraine. She was instrumental in organizing and leading the Orange Revolution (a protest against fraudulent elections) in Ukraine a few years back. To many Ukrainians, she is a symbol of hope for a democratic and prosperous, sovereign nation.
Incidentally her hairstyle that the NY daily news calls Princess Leia braids is a very old and traditional style in Ukraine; it predates the Star Wars trilogy by centuries. She is blond and fair skinned as seen in the photograph. What besides your bias and hatred allowed you to determine that she is “crazy?” The comment is as demeaning as me calling President Obama a "skinny, black spendthrift." Both descriptions are simplistic and insulting.
Ukrainians are generally Slavs. The opposite of Aryans.
One of so many many reasons the reflexive jump to Hitlerize one's opponent is never a good thing to indulge.
"What's up with the attacks on Samhita? I find it bothersome to see commenters refer to \"Samhita once said...\" Do you really keep track of this?"
It is called Acoountability.
For what, might I ask?
As for the "hitlerizing" of one's opponents, I understand that. I typed that post really quickly and probably should have put a word other than Aryan, such as Caucasian, but that's what I get for typing pre-coffee, eh? Regardless, it doesn't change the POINT which is that it's still reiterating that "most beautiful" be equated with light-skinned whiteness.
I think your argument that one type of beauty standard is hurtful is very valid. Biden's observations may well be better left unvoiced if he wished to be either fair or professional. Speaking about the women of a country categorically as if they were a natural resource like oil or coal is strange to say the least.
But you have skirted around my POINT about your declaration. You see fit to lump all "white" or "Caucasian" people in the same category irrespective of other attributes like culture or nationality. I have had people, who are "white" correctly identify me as slavic because of a difference in facial features. Some individuals in my "white" society discriminate against me because of those very same features. Beauty is subjective; certain people in my area of the United States think I am ugly because I look too slavic and feel I am not a "real american" beacause I have a Ukrainian surname.
Contrary to what aleks suggested, you weren't "hitlerizing" the opponent.(Biden) You were implying that those who met with your opponent's approval(Ukrainians) were to blame by being "aryan" and in one person's case "crazy."
P.S. I am still interested to know how you conclude Yulia Tymoshenko is "crazy."
"I find that [the apparent idealization of Eurocentric beauty standards] troubling and reaffirming of old, damaging ideas about beauty. I mean, especially when you read it in connection with this crazy blond, fair lady."
My interpretation of what Tara K. wrote is not that she thinks Yulia Tymoshenko is crazy [insane], but that she's crazy-blonde [has very pale blonde hair]. It makes sense in the context of the sentance.
Yes, thank you. By "crazy blond" I mean "very blond." Sorry if that's misinterpreted, but it's a common usage. (I.e. The tuna patties I ate for dinner were crazy good!)
The reason I lumped them all together is because most of the world does. Racial definitions to do vary and we can each choose our own to be recognized by, but the variations between Indo-Europeans and different other Europeans aren't recognized largely, and it's most people would interpret that comment to say, "White women are the most beautiful." Because race is socially constructed, I tend to think it's most useful to look at social commentary on race the way that the world does. (I.e. When was the last time you heard Obama called the first bi-racial president? Yes, it may be accurate by some standards, but it's now irrelevant for the general purposes of looking at how he is interpreted.
Example: If you poll majority of people and ask them the race of these people (who represent a diversity of Slavic backgrounds), most of them would say, "They're old white guys." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Svks2.jpg
Now, if we were discussing your experiences specifically, yes, those variations become relevant. I, for example, have black and Native American lineage, but for the purposes of society I am "white." I could identify as something else, but if talking about my social treatment and what I represent, it would be white.
"For what, might I ask?"
Are you implying that people should not be held accountable for what they say? That they can spout off whatever they want at whatever time they wish without people bringing up earlier statements which contradict their current statements?
P.S. In my earlier post it should have been "Accountability"
No, I'm saying that the comment seemed like nit-picking. Really.
And that I've seen a larger trend of Feministing commenters who seem to create personal agendas against certain editors. It often seems like people have decided, "I don't like X, and I'm going to intentionally try to derail/contradict/just say personal and rude things on any of their posts." That doesn't mean I'm saying you were doing this, but that I see this a lot. I think it represents a larger trend of intimidation and predatorship that evolves through the dehumanizing aspects and availability of internet presences.
It's fine to dislike someone, but I consider those who seek out certain online presences to intentionally berate or express hostility toward their ideas a kind of predator-like harassment. If the same things were done in "real life" (i.e. not online), the cops would be called.
This is very distressing to me. I have valued this community for a long time but in the past six months or so it's been overrun by people who seem to have no interest in combatting sexism, racism, etc. Completely ruins the discussions, IMO, when most of the people posting are just fighting to uphold the status quo.
I think I over-reacted and over-interpreted. I'm sorry. Been spending much too much time on the internet.
Hey, happens to us all. Sometimes typed messages just lose all the nuance of spoken, intoned language.
I thought it was already decided Puerto Rico had the most beautiful women? I'm not mad at Joe, the veep can be a dude sometimes I don't think everything is important.
GF says it's actually Hmong women born in Thailand. I'm disinclined to disagree.
I have been reading feministing for months now, and this is the first time I've actually been moved to create an account so I can comment...
I'm really shocked at the number of people who, even while acknowledging that VP Biden said a stupid, sexist thing, are willing to "give him a pass" because of what he's done for women.
In my opinion, what he says has the potential to be even more harmful than say, what someone like Rush Limbaugh might say. We love to hate Limbaugh and his ilk. They say disgusting, sexist, classist, bigoted things all the time and we rake them across the coals. But these people have never claimed to be on my side, so to speak. It is people like Biden, politicians who have claimed to stand up for me, who do more damage when they say something like this, because it normalizes it... people are more likely to laugh it off as ol' Joe being Joe again...
(much like war protesters congregate en masse at the RNC... but in much smaller numbers at the DNC, in front of the people who claim to be on their side)
I think BECAUSE Joe Biden is who he is, and has done what he has done for women, he should be held to a higher standard.
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