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Ellen Page is love.
All very cool. Looks like a great cast!
hell yes! I love going to the roller derby games here in Toronto - so much excitement and fun!
I'm all about female sport, female aggression, and female competitiveness. I'm less enthused about pornifying female sports. Roller derby is just burlesque on wheels: empowerful, not empowering.
what?
i mean, this movie fictionalizes a large part of roller derby (majority of leagues use flat, not banked, tracks, majority of leagues use WFTDA standards, not random punching/tripping) but c'mon...
when i first started one the first things the trainers told us was, okay, forget the past couple decades of conditioning, you need to stop apologizing for everything, be aggressive and take up space...
I stated that I support female aggression. My objection is to the pornification, which you didn't respond to.
you didn't explain what the hell you meant by pornification.
i was responding to the "not empowering" part.
Pornified is a term used pretty commonly in some feminist communities, so it is reasonable that I would not explain "what the hell I meant by it." It's a colloquial term which is generally used to mean influenced by porn or by the porn aesthetic, esp. to the point of resembling porn.
Disclaimer: I am not claiming to be the authority on feminist definitions.
there's plenty of uniform/aesthetic discussion in the comments below so i'll ignore that part.
i think there's a enormous difference between burlesque & roller derby. when it comes down it, whatever individual or personality wise, they're still training and participating in a sport. not dancing & removing clothing to make money. hell, no one is making money from derby. no one is stripping on the track. no one is dancing seductively. no one is conscious of the audience* from the time the first buzzer goes off until the final score.
*i've been going to bouts for a long time & the vast majority of the audience are family members & friends of players & other women who are interested in playing.
I disagree. There is strong spectacle involved, but ultimately, it comes down to the sport.
The reasons that SOME people watch roller derby are not necessarily the same reasons women who play roller derby join.
From what I've seen, its about women enjoying their bodies, fine-tuning their fitness and ability to play, being competitive, and building relationships with other women as teammates.
The cutesy outfits are to draw spectators. I can't fault them for that because I always preferred to play sports for an audience, too. But ultimately, it comes down to the sport and the joy of competition.
The comparison to burlesque is just waay off, IMO. The goal of roller derby not about titillating the audience. It's about women playing a tough sport with other women. And that's empowering.
some of the 'cutesy' stuff is partially a functionality thing too. when you've got elbow pads and enormous knee pads, tank tops & above the knee skirts/shorts are about all you can wear without compromising movement. not to mention how unbelievably hot you get - the clothes gotta be breathable too. fishnets/tights/knee socks are a friggin' life saver, your legs will get burned on the floor without them.
Ever watched a football game? They seem to do okay in pants and jerseys. Bet that would help the rink burn, too.
I play WFTDA derby. And I've watched football (Isn't that the sport where folks are running in a straight line wihtout skates on in super-tight pants with nothing on underneath?).
I don't actually care if you have a problem with the "pornification." I could be 90 years old in a burlap sack gardening on my roof, and if it was something people were watching, it would be "pornified" by somebody. Feel free to buy a ticket so I can knock someone into you and you can get a feel for the true sweaty, stinky, remarkably unsexy sportyfication of this fabulous hobby of mine.
Folks in our league wear whatever the hell they want to. For some, that's *actual football pants*. For others, it's something else.
some of the more financially solvent leagues have standardized uniforms like that. this is diy sport and most leagues have a logo and colors & you're on your own to put your own "uniform" together.
i don't get how spandex pants would be any less "pornified" than looser skirts/shorts and socks. a lot of women i know wear leggings or tights with a skirt over top because they don't want everyone looking at their ass.
Ummmm... there's alot of women who watch football so they can checkout the guys in those costumes you say are oh-so-functional. Not saying they aren't functional - but the point is football players ARE pornified and objectified.
Fact is unless you are wearing a completely plain sack that doesn't reveal your face, any body part or shapes of body parts, someone will look at you sexually. That's just the way of the world.
I agree. I know lots of people who think football uniforms are hot. I remember in high school a group of girls always wore t-shirts to the football games that said something along the lines of "We came for the football, we stay for the tight, gold pants." And I personally like watching soccer games because the guys tend to take their shirts off. So it's not like male sports are the epitome of modesty and prudishness.
My point is, most sports uniforms are going to be sexy to some people, because for functional reasons they're usually really tight and/or reveal a lot of skin. But that doesn't really matter as long as the sport is taken seriously and I think in the case of roller derby both the players and spectators appreciate that it's a really aggressive, difficult sport.
Actually...women in the Middle East who wear full burka get sexually harassed all the time. Guess it doesn't matter what women wear, we get it from all sides. Either we are chaste and thats hot or we feel proud of our bodies after working hard to achieve amazing triceps, quads, abs; want to show them off and that is deemed pornification. Derby gave me a new awareness of my body I used to hide with long hair and by making myself overweight. I feel great now after working my ass off...literally 50 lbs of it...for a year. I am proud of my arms, which I NEVER showed before. I am proud of my quads, which I always hid. I wear short shorts with pride, for myself and not to make a spectacle. Thats just my opinion though. Women on my team recently wore a full nude suit, with pasties and a merkin. It was a joke alluding to the fact we are the "Yoko Onos" of our league. Some people laughed, others were up in arms. Fact is you can't please everyone, so why not just please yourself!
Well alrighty then, since there will always be someone who is turned on by pretty much anything, there is no need at all to analyze and certainly not to criticize why a women's sport would adopt a look which is very similar to overtly sexualized images of women in advertising and porn. They choose it!
my point isn't that you shouldn't analyze why certain women chose certain aesthetics.
my point is that since very few leagues have standard uniforms & each skater more or less designs her own game day clothing so what one woman on a team choose to wear does not implicate the entire sport. just on very, very small team there is wide range of what each individual skater feels comfortable wearing (both asethetically AND functionally).
From what I've seen, its about women enjoying their bodies, fine-tuning their fitness and ability to play, []
You know, I hear this about burlesque, too.
[] being competitive, and building relationships with other women as teammates.
And you need stupid outfits and porny theatrics for this?
"Stupid" in terms of judging outfits is an opinion. I don't think they look any more stupid than football or soccer uniforms.
And what "porny theatrics"? I don't think you've watched the same roller derbies that I've watched. (Or have you watched any at all?)
I would be happy to hear that players do not deliberately flip up their skirts and present their butt to the audience in all roller derby games, as one player did in a game in Austin. I'd be less happy to hear that you don't think that's a porny move.
Ok, so I've never been to a roller derby and I haven't been really in on this conversation, but I would like to say that I don't think certain actions are inherently 'porny.' And I would hate to look down on a woman that did something 'porny,' if that's what she, herself, chose to do because it might not fit into my definition of 'empowering.' Different people find different things empowering. Isn't that what all this is about? So that everyone has a choice? I'm all for analyzing, not so much for the judging.
Sounds less like a porn and more like you were mooned.
Yeah, I had a bit of a laugh at the idea of mooning now being sexy. Especially mooning with, as our roller derby commenters below said, shorts and pads underneath the skirts.
Maybe we like the stupid outfits.
Maybe we like the stupid outfits.
Gymnasts wear stupid, skin-tight outfits. Would you consider that sport basically the same as burlesque? What about figure skating/ice dancing?
Just curious.
I was thinking the same thing. I've worn some admittedly stupid figure skating uniforms (what was I thinking?!). And I've seen figure skaters get more than a tad theatrical. Doesn't mean it's not a legitimate sport (I mean hey, it's in the olympics) and it doesn't take away from the fact that it's a really challenging, physically taxing activity. And I've certainly never heard anyone call it burlesque.
I don't think that sports should necessarily have to be super serious all the time. If people want to wear fun outfits, then who the hell cares.
Yeah, actually. Gymnastics, especially. If it has never occurred to you that women's, ahem, girls' gymnastics is overly sexualized, you should look a little closer.
Is figure skating sexualized? Oh, fuck, yeah. You know that unitards were banned for female figure skaters after Debi Thomas wore one in 1988? Costumes after that had to be a skirt and tights. They only just lifted that ban at the last winter Olympics.
Is ice dancing sexualized? Not just sexualized, but heterosexualized.
I agree with you about these sports being sexualized but I guess I just don't get comparing them to burlesque.
Because they are still sports. They still require physical and mental prowess, not just done for the titillation of men. Yes, that's probably part of it in many circumstances but I still have a lot of respect for athletes of any kind. I guess because I am so far from being one...
Regarding gymnastics, I actually read a really good article about how the number of girls in gymnastics is dropping while the number of girls participating in cheerleading is increasing. I'll try to find it.
I find it sad and very telling that women who participate in sports are often forced or encouraged to wear skimpy, sexualized (or infantilizing) outfits.
But at the same time, as others have said, if the athlete in question likes an outfit and the outfit is also functional then who cares? It's kind of like the discussion around cosmetics. Many women claim they wear make-up because it makes them feel good and "empowered" or whatever. Then others argue that it all comes down to looking good for men.
(I hope this comment isn't derailing because I find the whole discussion fascinating).
I agree that the rule was ridiculous and I'm glad it was lifted in 2004. However, the reason it was adopted in the first place was so that costumes would be "modest" and "not overly theatrical." Katarina Witt had bare legs, which people considered too sexual, so the skirt rule was adopted so that costumes would "cover the hips and buttocks." So you're arguing that figure skating is too sexual because they adopted a stodgy, outdated rule about modesty. That doesn't make sense.
Figure skating is traditionally kind of an uptight sport (but that's changing thankfully!) and it's not like there are lots of (or really any) straight guys drooling over skating competitions. But yeah, oftentimes figure skating programs can be quite sexual. However I fail to see what's so horrible about that. It's a sport that involves expressing yourself emotionally and artistically and I think that expressions of one's sexuality can be a legitimate and beautiful part of that.
To get back to the point of this post, I really don't think roller derby is that sexual at all. But even if some roller derby players like to have fun with their sexuality a little bit by wearing fun costumes I don't see how that is such a bad thing. It's still above all a badass, physically demanding sport and to call it "burlesque" is to unfairly dismiss all of the awesome qualities of this sport simply because you don't like how a handful of players choose to dress/act.
(And I agree that heteronormativity in pairs skating is horrible. One of the most moving (and sexist. sorry) programs I ever saw was two guys skating together at my rink.)
In any sport in a male-dominated arena (aggressive sports such as derby, racing, etc.) women typically are forced to adopt the "be one of the boys" mentalities in order to be taken seriously.
I've been drag racing at the professional level for 10 years. I've encountered all kinds of good ole boys who think I shouldn't be there. At first, I adopted the whole chip on the shoulder, out to prove myself mentality that left me apologizing for being a woman and trying so hard to just be "one of the boys". But you know what? I don't NEED to apologize for being a woman - an intelligent, attractive, and TALENTED woman- in my sport anymore. It caused me to create my all-female team... Horsepower & Heels... because Who says you can't mix Horsepower & Heels?!?
I joined my local roller derby team last December, and you know what? These girls train harder than most other sports I've ever trained for. We are beautiful, successful, POWERFUL, and ATTRACTIVE women who have no problem displaying our own unique personalities on the skating floor.
You may call it pornification... but to me its showing that not only can we be serious athletes, but we ARE strong women, with unique personalities, and are beautiful AND talented at the same time! Celebrate your assets! Don't be ashamed of them!
Hey there. Just wanted to point out & clarify that derby is exactly the opposite of a male-dominated sport.
yes, but in incorporates full-contact hitting, which is traditionally considered a male "sport"
This.
As other commenters have noted, derby is hard and dangerous. If we want to do it and be feminine at the same time, that's our choice. Sure, there are guys in the stands that get off on seeing it. It helps to pay the bills. Personally, my lesbian lover and I couldn't care less about what some dudes think about my outfit. And if any creepy guy threatens me or one of my derby sisters, we're not going to put up with it.
In other words, I have no idea what Frumpious B wants, aside from perhaps taking away my hobby, my porn, my self-determination in the name of empowering me. Thanks, but pass.
Hey there. Just wanted to point out & clarify that derby is exactly the opposite of a male-dominated sport.
no balls in derby.
Are they going to pull Raquel Welch out of retirement?
And not to be sizeist, but wouldn't somebody as petite and inexperienced as Ellen die immediately in one of these contests?
no.
no. you train for months before you play with the experienced players.
no. you train for months before you play with the experienced players. some of our smallest players are absolutely brutal with the hits.
No, the beauty of roller derby is that there is a place for women of all sizes. The best jammers on my team are Ellen Page's size, and I bet that she spent more time on her skates preparing for this movie than we had before our first bout as a newly formed team that really had no idea what we were doing.
If you have to qualify your statement with "Not to be blank, but..." then you're probably being blank.
this confirms that you've not watched any derby at all. "you can't judge a book by it's cover" is most true in derby...where tiny girls kick ass (some of our interleague girls weight but 100 pounds) and large girls are agile and graceful. Look at Honey SuckIt from Boston, Rice Rocket from Texas, Anya Heels from Rat City or Beyonslay of Gotham. We all find a place in derby, regardless of physical size.
This is Drew Barrymore's first directing project and I'm very excited. I wish more actresses would become directors, since it's very common for male actors to do that (Clint Eastwood, Mel Gibson, etc)
Is that Eve? LOVE. So basically, they've taken all my crushes and put them in one ass-kicking movie. I'm in.
yep, that's Eve! I had no idea she was in the cast, too.
okay, this proves i'm a little hormonal right now, because that just made me tear up a little. i want to see it NOW!!
You're not the only one. I had no idea going in to this that I was going to get so excited over it!
and with Pork & Beans in the background... the epitome of anthems for being yourself without consequence.
I'll check this one out. If I am lucky enough to find a theatre who will play it! Imagine, in a city of more than 100k, we don't have "Away We Go."
I cannot wait to see this!
It would have been nice to see some fat roller derby ladies, but perhaps they weren't featured in the trailer...? Here's to hoping! I am excited to see this movie!
hey, it'd be great if everyone who was planning to financially support this major hollywood motion picture would also support their local roller derby leagues & go see a real bout. =)
http://www.wftda.com/member-leagues/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_roller_derby_leagues
i also believe the whip it website will have links to local WFTDA leagues with a calendar of this fall's bouts.
i can't find the whip it official web page :(
i couldn't either, i don't think it's up yet...
I think I'm in love with Femifist.
Ah - that's funny because you're one of my favorite skaters. I
Eep! Kristen Wiig! I have a bit of a crush. She's the reason I watch SNL.
check out the bullshit, sexist comments here about Whip It:
http://hollywood-elsewhere.com/2009/07/whip_it.php
and people wonder why I can't stand the majority of male movie buffs (being that I'm also a movie buff). Fucking jerks.
On the flip side, now I feel like I can't give roller derby a shot without feeling like a jerk. I'd feel like I'm piggybacking on ~the latest trend~.
first time commenter...
I feel utterly betrayed by this being posted here. I think roller derby is icky and falsely empowering.
these tragic events are happening nationwide, and it's disgusting.. young women dressed up in revealing outfits kicking the shit out of each other. Men weren't beating enough women up that women decided to start?
the entire trend is icky false consciousness. I was talking to some young lesbians 18-21 who were all about the derby, and I tried to challenge them on these issues... and they had one answer: but it's fun!
sure, there are a lot of things that are fun, and I'm sorry to be the fun police in anyway. I can't force anyone to have a feminist consciousness.
If you are ok fulfilling a straight man's fantasy of female beauty (I see the cast are lovely, GIRL SCOUTS in too tight/small uniforms perpetuating the sexualization of classic school girl items) and beating other women up for a paying audience, then fine. it disgusts me.
sorry, I know this isn't terribly eloquent or well-written.. watching that was just a BIG fucking trigger for me. I am HUGELY disappointed in the site for not having a more measured/nuanced/conscious response to this film than "Want. To. See." UGH
"I was talking to some young lesbians 18-21 who were all about the derby, and I tried to challenge them on these issues... and they had one answer: but it's fun!"
I understand your point, and in some ways I agree.. But why are you questioning the people who are just doing what they love? Why not question the people who are sexualizing them instead? I actually admire women who play sports. I honestly don't know how they stand it, because ALL of the female sports that I've seen are over-sexualized. It's not their fault, they're just doing what they love. Other people are the ones that are trying to turn them into sex objects. The viewers are the people that are doing this to them.
Although, I don't really understand WHY the girls have to wear skimpy outfits. People say it's for "functionality", but if that were true guys would wear skimpy outfits, as well.. I think that that is definitely an issue worth looking at.
It's the bulkiness of the padding, the heat, & the flexibility needed to execute a safe, legal hit.
This is ROLLER DERBY, a diy sport that emphasizes creativity in names, uniforms, production. This isn't a for-profit heavily sponsored professional sport. This is a volunteer pay to play fun thing that lots of women spend significant money and time because they enjoy it. For a lot of people it's a rare escape from their work/home responsibilities, a way to feel good about their bodies, a way to meet other strong women, etc.
Okay, but like I said, shouldn't men wear skimpy outfits as well if it's really JUST functionality? This can apply to any sport, not just roller derby.
Hold on a sec - do you watch sports at all? There's alot of men wearing alot of skimpy outfits in sports if you ask me.
I admit, I don't watch a lot of sports, but even when the guys are wearing skimpy outfits the womens outfits are usually way more revealing. Again, this is just from what I've seen. Maybe I just miss out on the guys wearing practically nothing whenever I do watch sports.
Men's swim uniforms are teeeeeeeny compared to women's.
Yeah, I actually noticed that one. But it seems like in the majority of sports, women have the more revealing outfits. Check out this link
http://viv.id.au/blog/20080811.2066/women-still-the-sex-class-in-international-sports/
This is a very good, succinct article. I wish more people would look at this.
male wrestlers, male swimmers, etc? what works as a uniform depends on the specifics of the movements required for the sport so comparisons aren't perfect...
what about the roller derby requires half shirts, girl scout uniforms, cheerleading skirts, etc?
I'd expect more padding.. possibly something like a lacrosse uniform
this discussion about the uniforms is just a red herring anyway. the question is why are women embracing a sport where they hurt other women in front of a blood thirsty paying audience.
take out all the debatable red herrings like the uniforms, the audience - mostly male? etc
fundamnetally it is still a undoubtedly strenuous exercise geared around woman on woman violence.. are we trying to show how much we can fit in patriarchal society? we can be like men, watch how we hit women.
are you talking about the way derby is portrayed in this movie or how roller derby works in reality?
i've never seen a woman wear a half shirt, ever. i'm unaware of a real league that utilizes girl scout uniforms; most wear screened tshirts and color cordinated bottoms. skirts are functional due to the enormity of the kneepads & 99% of the time they're worn with some sort of shorts underneath. and as for more padding, girls who wear tailbone protectors (think thickly padded shorts) wear skirts over top of them because, like i said earlier, they don't want people staring at their ass. as for violence? it's a contact sport! hits aren't even half of what's going on, jammers are scoring, people are assisting with whips & positional blocking. there is contact going on but everyone is very, very trained for a long time before they ever see game time on how to do so safely.
the league I learned of from those girls was mostly sports bras and tennis skirts..
I believe there was puff paint and body paint involved in sprucing the outfits up.
sports bras during land drills (...like many female runners and other athletes wear while training) or on-skates practicing/playing? that sounds friggin' painful to take a hit on bare skin.
a lot of girls paint their faces (stars around eyes, zombie-esque makeup are pretty popular) as part of the creativity/aesthetics thing. those are usually just got home team bouts or public scrimmages though, not official WFTDA ranking games. and it's a lot cheaper to puffy paint/body paint your name and number on your shirts & arms (numbers are required on each arm for WFTDA sanctioned bouts) than pay to get them screened on.
i don't understand why roller derby players are held to this heightened cover-it-all-up standard just because it's a more quirky non traditional do-it-yourself sport. the same arguments being made in these comments could be applied to any female athlete. why don't female swimmers wear full on wetsuits rather than regular bathing suits or (for just general swimmers, not athletes) two pieces? why don't women runners wear full pants and shirts rather than tanks and shorter shorts? etc, etc.
it's insanely frustrating to me to be told that if i chose to wear a tank top and a skirt with shorts under it along with massive padding (wrist guards, elbow pads, knee pads, helmet, mouth guard), i'm performing for the male gaze rather than training my ass off to help win games for my team.
I thnk I can safely say that most of us would still play even if there wasn't an audience. Selling tickets means we can afford to rent the rink for practice and scrimmage.
We play because it feels good to skate very fast in a circle, and we enjoy utilizing strategic thinking in a team sport environment. We make decisions as a team and individually on the track in a matter of seconds. We play because it is a bigger adrenaline rush and more physical exertion than you can get from just about any other sport...and we play because it is one of a TINY handful of contact sports that women participate in. Do you have a similar beef with women's football, rugby, hockey, or boxing? Not being a jerk. I'm genuinely curious. These are also sexualized, as are all sports to some degree. Not even golf gets a pass.
But I don't want to speak for every skater. If you ask 80 people why they play, you will probably get 80 different answers.
We body check, push, block, hit, and move women around and out of bounds. It is very, very physical. Some (most) of us *LIKE* that. We also leave it on the track when we're done. This notion that women are not inherently aggressive and are "trying to be like men" is in itself a harmful sterotype.
They do...
There are a few nacent boy leagues out there. A few...some of them wear skimpy outfits. So do some of the guys that volunteer to ref (women tend to want to play instead of ref, but not always).
I think this is a very appealing way to think about .. especially for players who do think it's fun.
but fundamentally we have a responsibility not just for our actions but for the foreseeable results.
you can say it's not the athlete's fault, it's the men objectifying them... ok.. but you're absolving them of any responsibility. i think activism is about taking a stand when it is inconvenient. so.. you really enjoy wearing skimpy outfits and hitting women while skating in a circle.. unfortunately they plays into objectification of women, violence against women, etc..
ok; I respect people who feel a moral obligation to refrain regardless of how fun it is.
Wow - not sure I've ever been accused of false consciousness before. Not sure I really want to stir the pot with this but here it is. Roller derby is full of *gasp* feminists. In fact, I have a BA in women's studies and taught intro to women's studies as a grad student.
My league has women aged 19 through the late 40's. We come from all different education levels, socio-economic backgrounds, sexuality, professions, etc. We are mostly white, although I get the sense that's changing too. We are business women who democratically run our league. The women I skate with are my best friends and my family. This sport changed my life. So please do not assume you know who we are or what we're about just by what we wear.
And hell yes, some of us wear short skirts and fishnets because we like it.
I think this comment was aimed at Amanda, not me. I never accused anyone of "false consciousness", and I'm totally for women who want to play any kind of sport. I just hate that people are always sexualizing them and turning them into objects rather than seeing them as the talented people that they are.
You're right - it in response to Amanda. I just saw "false consciousness" and got a bit prickly.
your qualifications sound lovely. I certainly didn't assume you don't have any. Nor do I assume that you are as offended by this situation as I am.
first of all, not all feminists believe in false consciousness, so you can be a feminist and think that the whole Catherine MacKinnon concept of false consciousness is bunk. perhaps you are a liberal feminist, and it's all about being able to choose to objective yourself.. or you reject the premise that it is a form of objectifying yourself.. fine. it is hard to say one answer is right.. I obviously strongly believe that my answer is right for me, but who walks around saying, "I thought, for fun, I would purposely be wrong today"
I think roller derby is horrid. I wouldn't be caught dead attending, and when I heard those young women discussing it I was appalled. I immediately thought less of them, and I wondered what happened to lesbianism that is accompanied by feminist reflection... these were young hipster lesbians who couldn't tell you what liberal or radical feminism is or what they believe. they know they like wine coolers and roller derby. perhaps it's a step forward that they aren't as defined by their sexuality, I thin it's a step toward the lowest common denominator and a disappointment . that's a tangent.. back to the point:
I don't think that feminists are magically absolved of false consciousness. Feminist is far too subjective of a word for us to (1) agree that false consciousness exists, and/or (2) agree as to what would fall within it.
I said that I believe the women who would participate in this are doing so under a mistaken belief that it is empowering. you believe otherwise.
the bottom line is that some people do find it extremely offensive. This site has typically, in my opinion, embraced a broad spectrum of feminists, I am appalled that this post was an unqualified seal of approval for what I view as a terrible blow to the feminist movement perpetrated, all too often, by feminists.
"I wouldn't be caught dead attending."
So the perception you have developed is from second hand experience and a fictionalized movie.
That's OK. Just don't be surprised when those of us that do it for real take you to task for judging is based on this, and frankly triggering some VERY strong emotions with the wording of *your* post.
..."it." "judging it", not "is." Need more coffee.
the movie isn't out yet, so I obviously haven't seen it. what's more is despite LOVING Kristen Wiig, I will have to refrain from supporting the film.
I referred to the uniforms as red herring because I have investigated roller derby videos online. After my discussion with the young non-feminist lesbians about roller derby I wanted to see if it was as violent and terrible as I imagined. It is.
I have not been personally to a game because I will NOT support such activities, but that doesn't mean that I'm some idiot who judges things without looking into it. Certainly those people exist, so I appreciate you holding me accountable. Trust me, I am accountable. I have not relied on pop culture, I have looked at videos from participants who were proud of it.. it made me very sad.
Yeah...I joined derby after I got out of an abusive marriage....learned how hard I could hit and that I could trust my body....learned to trust people...learned a bunch of business skills....made a community...yeah. Super awful. So don't go and don't join.
i would "like" this a thousand times if i could...
Also, the last person who referred to anything I loved as disgusting and tragic was my ex-husband. Check yourself.
Not you, bondage.
i got that, and (obviously) the "liking" it part was in reference to the positive things joining derby did for you, not for the reason you got involved.
I sort of though the school girl outfits weren't just about being sexy but more about playing on the idea that good little girls are expected to be timid and quiet and passive. It's cool to see people in school girl outfits kicking ass.
"Men weren't beating enough women up that women decided to start?"
Why the fuck are you even comparing physical abuse/domestic abuse to a SPORT that has willing participants??????
A man beating his girlfriend is NOT the same as two willing women beating each other up in a game.
Get a fucking clue.
I like that you got fired up about that...but I think we should make sure Amanda knows that we do not "beat each other up." There are very specific ways to BLOCK each other on the track in order to strategically help your jammer score points & hinder the opposing jammer from scoring points. A derby player must play offensively and defensively at the same time, which makes it the hardest, smartest, and most confusing sport I've ever watched and played. We do not ever intentionally hurt each other. A perfectly timed block is always appreciated and those on the track are in awe of another skaters ability to do that, whether or not its on your team or the other. We celebrate each others success and athletic ability. Derby players who are well known around the country are known for their athletic agility and ability, not their outfits. After a bout is over, no one even remembers what the other team wore, but what we do remember are great blocks, great jams, great jukes, great skating, and having a lot of fun doing it. Derby is amazing and if you would write it off before understanding rules and seeing it live, then thats your prerogative, but very narrow in my opinion. I've always played sports growing up and their is far more damage done to a young woman's image in gymnastics and ballet. If derby was around when I was a young woman, I would have joined, learned at a younger age to be proud of my muscular legs and thick, strong body! Derby Por Vida!
There is a lot of debate in feminist theory about porn, for good reason. It isn't so straightforward as "porn is bad."
Looks good, awesome really, but I really would like to see a film, for once, that has a young woman following her dreams who is supported by her MOTHER. I really like supportive fathers, but it is so negative to see older women constantly denigrating the choices of their daughters in films. Thank goodness for daddy's support saving the day! Yuck.
I am SO freaking excited about this that it might even be considered funny. I seriously cannot wait, and I am also very bombed that I have to wait until October...
I don't know if it's the songs they used for the trailer, Ellen Page's character, or the all-around empowerment/self-discovery thing, but I'm too excited.
That's only porny (what a terrible word!) if it's done in a sexualised manner...
If a woman wants to use her butt to poke fun at the opposing team (much in the same way as drunken men everywhere expose their butts to poke fun at people) then it's a powerful reclamation of the woman's body and her right to do with it whatever she wants.
ya know. I think that anything can be sexual if you let it be. If a guy thinks a girl is hot i think he will think she is hot doing whatever. So what if guys are looking or paying to see girls do anything? If the girls are having fun and enjoy doing what they do then who cares?
I for one think that this movie is going to be fun. and I think that anyone who plays roller derby is really brave. I wouldnt want to get the crap kicked out of me.. but the outfits seem fun and i like rollerskates haha.
i saw this movie at a screening and let me tell you, of the 12 or 13 main derby girls not one of them, NOT ONE, is queer. which is just...fucking absurd. also has a creepy way sexist "love story" attached. also the three characters that hold "leadership" in the film (the coach, the owner of the league and the owner of the rink) are all dudes.
this movie is "girl power" bullshit.
yeah, there are hardcore problems with this movie.
owner of the league? hahahhahahahahhahahha. WFTDA leagues are run by the women who skate.
your ex-husband is irrelevant to this discussion. I wish you luck in dealing with the emotional wounds of your former marriage.
yes, I checked.. I still think roller derby is disgusting and tragic. I'm surprised there is otherwise cohesive support for this. Glad I never ventured into the forums before.. this is less of a diverse community than I realized.
Know what's really disgusting and tragic? People like you, who have nothing better to do than sit around making short-sighted comments about something they clearly hate, refusing to listen to any viewpoint other than their own. I'd call you a troll, but then I'm reminded of those funny little dolls from the 80s, and frankly, they deserve better than to be lumped in with you.
I'm more than a little surprised by the intense anger of some of the replies this is less of a dialog and more of a defensive - why the fuck are you posting here or in any way critiquing my form of feminism..
which is fine, I suppose. defensiveness is natural. I really enjoyed the few responses that were reflective and nuanced while disagreeing.
still, I think I have definitely learned that the forums of feministing are not a valuable part of the site to me. I look forward to continuing to read the news links. best of luck to you all in your future discussions.
Blood on the Flat Track is going to be an exponentially better introduction to roller derby. It's a documentary on the Rat City Rollers out of Seattle. I don't think it's been released yet but the trailer is available here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__Y83Yb0mxM
(the 70 women comment is ugh).
My production company has been running a webcast for the league that this movie takes place in (www.txrd.com) for the past two seasons, so I've seen a lot of this particular brand of roller derby.
As part of our broadcast, we interview 2-3 players from each team before each bout and I'd say that we've spoken to between 1/4 and 1/3 of the league by now. Every player is asked: Why did you start? Why do you keep playing? Not everyone answers the same way but most of them give something along the lines of "I wanted to feel strong" or "It makes me feel powerful". I actually hear the word "empowered" over and over again in these interviews. The women in this league (and I would venture in most others) do not skate not out of a societal pressure or a need to impress men; they skate because they want to and because it gives them power.
This league (like many across the country) is skater owned and operated. There is no group of fat old white men (no Bud Selig, no Jerry Jones) making decisions for the players - it is a collectively-owned women-run business.
I am sure that my opinion is skewed by my gender (male), race (white) and sexuality (straight) but I believe that what I see in TXRD are some of the goals of feminism: agency and empowerment for a wide range of women. I'm proud to be a part of it.
Weren't we just all up in arms a few months ago about the uniforms the female volleyball players wear, and even more recently, professional women's tennis outfits? I think some people on this thread are defending derby outfits for love of the sport, rather than say, examining the fact that the sport is in part known for the costuming. I happen to enjoy the sight of women competing physically (even if a lot of it is theatricality) and couldn't care less what they wear. I also call BS on the comments that say the costumes are all about functionality because the women that practiced across the street from my house every week in Tucson were wearing sweats, pants, tee shirts and pads. Let's face it- every sport has a costume and (sometimes) only the players get to make the decision about what they wear.
Sorry for the length of this comment, but some of this thread has gotten me unusually steamed.
I can't really comment on this movie in particular, but when it comes to outfits in roller derby, figure skating, etc, it's context that matters. Is it burlesque? Perhaps, but then, I view burlesque as a positive force in many situations. Oh woops, now I've revealed the fact that I was born post 1980 and clearly cannot be a real feminist!
I find accusing somebody of having a "false consciousness" actually appalling and paternalistic. The entire concept rests on the premise that women, even who have thought deeply and introspectively about what it means to be female in this society, are incapable of controlling their own bodies and minds.
Equally appalling is being bludgeoned over the head with this imagined generational divide between pro-sex "gurl power" floozy fakes and the noble, feminist crusaders who "know the difference between radical and liberal" feminism. I certainly know the difference. I would not identify myself as a liberal feminist, as I do not believe that political action will overturn a deeply entrenched and repugnant power structure. However, I find the radical feminism of the 70s lacking for a wealth of reasons (most prominently, that male supremacy is the original and salient oppression). I've heard the arguments and, while, I'm willing to hear them again, I WILL NOT allow my refusal to adopt them wholesale to be dismissed as the product of a weak and colonized mind.
Anyways, back to burlesque/costumes. A few bullet points:
1. SYMBOLS ARE POWERFUL.
Short skirts, skimpy shirts, lipstick, and the female body all have cultural meanings. Let's take the school girl uniform. I'd argue there's a cultural script associated with it. It connotes a sexualized youthfulness, submissiveness, malleability, etc-- all tied directly to the wearer's femaleness. This becomes a controlling image of what women can be.
2. SYMBOLS CAN BE CHANGED.
Yet symbols aren't constant. The classic case is the swastika, as I'm sure we've all heard. Another example is the prevailing archetypal woman in different eras in the United States. The defining archetype of woman in Puritan New England was that she was far more sexually voracious than a man and that her appetite needed to be carefully checked by the bonds of marriage before she led men to spiritual ruin. By the nineteenth century, woman was gentle, motherly, and induced into inappropriate carnal relations only through her own foolishness, naivete, and the predations of men. Both of these images are patriarchal, of course, but they're also profoundly different.
3. SUBVERTING SYMBOLS CAN RECLAIM THEM.
And here, I guess, I first part ways with classic radical feminism. So we have a meaning-drenched object, like a school girl uniform. When a roller derby girl wears a school girl uniform, something associated with weakness and passivity, and elbows folks around with strength and aggression, she is changing the definition. We experience cognitive dissonance as we watch the derby, because the women are not acting according to the role they're costumed for. The conflict between image and actuality becomes so obvious that the suite of negative characteristics are exposed for what they are: a sham and illusion created by the patriarchy. This is, I believe, the function of burlesque as well. It subverts the traditional male gaze. It makes a conventionally "sexy" outfit about the pleasure and choice of the wearer as well as of the viewer. The audience is welcomed as a participant in a sexual act, but on the terms of the performer. This is most easily seen as subversive when the performer doesn't fit the social vision of the sexual woman--white and young and slim and cisgendered and so forth-- but the introduction of agency into the performance chips away at the controlling image regardless.
4. CONTEXT IS IMPORTANT IN UNDERSTANDING SYMBOLS.
Let's talk about Aunt Jemima. Clearly, a controlling image. But Aunt Jemima when pictured in "Aunt Jemima's Revenge" has a very different meaning than when she's on a 1950s pancake box. Or words. "Cunt" coming out of the lips of a queer woman means something very different than when it when it skips off the tongue of a man. A skimpy schoolgirl uniform on a roller derby girl who has chosen that outfit, actively participates in the management of her team, and sees the derby as a celebration of her athleticism and agency is very different than a skimpy schoolgirl uniform on a girl that has been assigned to wear it by the male director of her porn shoot, which she is participating in not because she wants to for its own sake, but because it's the easiest way to make money in a society that doesn't afford the same benefits to women as it does to men. The first situation is a boon to women. The second, an injury.
Even taking the first three bullet points a priori, clearly the fourth leaves room for interpretation. Are there some situations that are empowering for individual women and disempowering for women as a collective? Surely, and I'd argue that much mainstream porn-- even that in which the actors are happy with their careers-- falls into that category. That is still not false consciousness, just a debate over priorities. But the roller derby? I'm not convinced that it's harmful for women, especially in light of the fact that it actively opposes our social training to be passive.
looks good, but it appears drew barrymore was heavily inspired by Bend it Like Beckham. (lost high school girl, traditional high-strung mom, supportive father, girls sports, love interest....)
but i liked bend it, so i'll probably like this too. :)
looks good, but it appears drew barrymore was heavily inspired by Bend it Like Beckham. (lost high school girl, traditional high-strung mom, supportive father, finding empowerment through girls sports, love interest....)
but i liked bend it, so i'll probably like this too. :)
Actually, it's based on a book written by a rollergirl. It's called Derby Girl (though is going to be re-released under the title Whip It!
Wow... so women are only feminist when they conform to somebody's ideal of what a feminist is? Screw that.
What's wrong with burlesque? What's wrong with sexy? Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought part of being a feminist was being sexy on your own terms. Some girls wear pants, some wear shorts, some wear thongs under skirts (this is rare). They wear what they are comfortable in, and I guarantee that if it isn't functional, they won't wear it. Roller derby is a sport first and a spectacle second (at least to the athletes).
As for beating the crap out of other women - a majority of derby has very strict rules against actual fighting. This has been covered already, but I want to point out that hitting above the shoulder, below the mid-thigh, and in the back is not allowed. You also can't use your hands and elbows, and you can't kick or trip other skaters. Safety is HUGE to every league I've ever heard of, including mine. It's very easy to get injured on skates WITHOUT any help. There are some hard hits, but generally they involve shoving and hip bumping. Nothing I would consider violence against women.
I love derby... I discovered it in January, and I'm trying out for the Carolina Rollergirls in a week. (!) There are women of all shapes, sizes, colors, and backgrounds that play derby. Some are gay, some are queer, some are straight, many are married. My husband has been coming to practices with me and says very little about outfits and sexiness - he's much more concerned with helping me improve my form and physical conditioning. He started skating, too, and hopes to ref eventually.
Also, as for the types of people who watch roller derby - the audiences at Dorton Arena where the Carolina Rollergirls play are usually filled with families. Kids of all ages watch this the same way they would watch soccer or baseball - except they get to see women being physically strong. Rollergirls fall down and bounce right back up (most of the time). They haul ass in skates. They play strategically and have to think constantly in order to keep track of what's going on and what their role is at any particular moment. When there is an actual injury, play stops until the skater is attended. There are (at the very least) high fives between teams after bouts, but I usually see hugging. These women are respected by each other and the fans... how could this not be considered a positive thing??
yes!! I've been waiting forever for this movie to come out! Is it going to be playing nationwide or just in select theaters? Not that it really matters, because I'll drive for a day just to see this if I have to!