Quote of the day: Shocking! Teens like Teh Sex
I love this post from Miranda at Women's Glib in its entirety (a response to conservative sex scare tactics concerning young people), but it's this quote that had me cheering in my seat:
Young people are certainly not the only group whose bodies are subject to public scrutiny and moral debate, but this backlash against the use of appropriate protection and enthusiastic consent to seek pleasure is an almost laughable example of the "keep your legs closed, you silly youngsters!" mentality. Is there a magical button, somehow pressed when a person turns 18, that suddenly allows them to experience sexual desire, pleasure, and satisfaction? Of course not; you and I know this is a ridiculous idea. But conservatives are all caught up in it when they act as though teenagers are across-the-board immature and utterly devoid of agency.It's not a secret: we know -- because we're doing it -- that sex feels good.
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Actually, my mom aligns with liberal political ideology in many ways, but I think believes in her heart of hearts teenage girls don't really desire or need to be having sex, and don't have the emotional maturity to enjoy it.
From the way she talks about her time as a teenager, it seems like it wasn't on her radar much. She didn't date much, didn't want to get pregnant, wasn't taught about birth control, and that was that.
So I don't think we can just say that all abstinence-pushers are in denial, or are totally wrong about their method having possibilities for success.
My response to my mom, though was typically: just because you were naive and immature doesn't mean everyone is.
Of course my response
I don't know that not wanting to have sex (yet or at all) makes one naive and immature.
It IS naive, however, to think that no one else (your age or any other) is interested in sex just because you are not.
I feel like a goddamn broken record sometimes.
WE are not doing it. YOU may be doing it, and several other people. But there are a lot of people who, by choice or by circumstance, are not having sex. How can you not see how excluding this is?
You're right, katemoore. I'm sorry for the implicit exclusion in my wording of the post. I guess sometimes I'm so eager to prove these conservatives wrong, I don't backtrack and consider other experiences as much as I'd like. Apologies.
I find it ironic that on the same day we poke fun about the abstinence-only people calling us "condom worshippers", we have this post which seems to encourage teen sex. In this way I think we invite the very criticisms we disdain.
Teenagers can't even take aspirin at school without supervision & yet we think that they're generally mature enough for sex? Teaching comprehensive, medically accurate sex-ed is--and should remain--a far cry from encouraging teen sex. I mean I can't get 1/2 the teens at Taco Bell to make my taco right but we're confident that they'll always use condoms, much less correctly? Geez, teens are already hyper-sexualized by pop culture, I hate to see us make it more so.
It doesn't encourage teen sex. It points out that teens (noteably, teen girls) who have sex aren't doing so because they're needy and have a poor relationship with daddy and just crave acceptance or were duped by their evil teen boyfriends and will wither and die because they will have their hearts broken. They don't REALLY choose it, they're forced into it by some outside influence.
People who speak out against teen girls having sex always assume there's some terrible, horrible, reason why they're having sex - they don't seem to realize or believe that teen girls often have sex for the same reason teen boys and adults do - 'cause they like it.
It seems that some people in the comments thread already are conflating not-shaming-sexually-active-people with encouraging-everyone-to-have-sex-whether-they-want-it-or-not. The key is respecting each person's informed decision and not playing armchair psychologist.
Really?
"An orgasm a day keeps the doctor away", the guide says. That sounds like its encouraging teenaged sex.
I never singled out teen girls. I said teens . Kids can't really make informed decisions about sex ( hence consent laws ). Even with comprehensive, medically accurate sex ed, what makes you think teens are actually informed? The majority of them can't find Kansas on a map, why would they score better on a sex ed test? Why push kids into the same situation where plenty of mature, informed adults act rashly?
You can still teach teens that sex is good & natural. "An orgasm a day.." is going way too far tho.
Are you being willfully deceitful? The "an orgasm a day" line is explicitly linked to masturbation.
I know you didn't single out teen girls. But that is who the purity movement is directed at. No one ever says that teen boys have sex because they have mommy issues. They say that teen boys have sex because boys are boys! Girls who have sex are used up lollipops. Read, you know, just about every article on Feministing about the purity and abstinence-only movement.
Even with comprehensive, medically accurate sex ed, what makes you think teens are actually informed?
Um, read what you just wrote. They are informed because they have the information. Having the information means they are informed. If you're arguing they can't use the information correctly, well, you seem to have a very dismal outlook on teenagers (what with the complaints about badly made tacos and Kansas. I don't know about you, but I learned about Kansas in grade 3).
And you're really just proving the article's point about the age of 18 and the magic button.
"I know you didn't single out teen girls. But that is who the purity movement is directed at."--Well I'm not the purity movement & I'm not supporting the double standard. We can't let the purity movement define us. We're not "for" everything they're "against".
"They are informed because they have the information...I don't know about you but I learned about Kansas in grade 3"--I knew about KS before grade 3; your snark aside, I doubt you have a high degree of confidence in our public education system, or if you do, deep familiarity with US statistics on student achievement.
I think you're pointing out far more flaws in social systems than in students themselves. Teens can't find Kansas on a map because of a poor education system, not stupidity or immaturity; they can't take aspirin without supervision because of zero-tolerance drug policies that can't distinguish between drug use and drug abuse; and they get your order wrong at Taco Bell because of the lack of opportunities for positive youth employment that inspires and motivates hard work.
And I'll echo Jennabun below me--you're unfairly generalizing young people into one demographic of brainless slobs. Many of them DO work hard at Taco Bell and do study hard in geography.
" "An orgasm a day keeps the doctor away", the guide says. That sounds like its encouraging teenaged sex."
Actually, it sounds like encouraging a healthy approach to teenage sexUALITY. There's a difference. The guide discusses masturbation as a healthy and normal thing, and I took the "orgasm a day" phrase as a tongue-in-cheek way to say, "Hey, go ahead, explore your body, it's perfectly healthy." I in fact assumed it referred to masturbation more than anything else. And I hope you aren't one to suggest there's anything wrong or perverted about masturbating daily, because of course it's a perfectly natural thing to do.
Excerpted from the article that cattrack2 is dishonestly and selectively copying and pasting from:
It also advises honesty about masturbation being perfectly healthy — it winkingly says that “an orgasm a day keeps the doctor away,” which strikes me as a cheesy attempt to be cool — and that sex isn’t always about procreation.
This is a distinction without a difference Alixana. Even if this just meant masturbation every kid I've known would answer, "if masturbation is good, sex is better!" And then you've just made my point.
How do you differentiate masturbatory orgasms from intercourse orgasms? If the former is good on a daily basis, why not the latter? Until there's a logical, straightforward answer to these questions, all we've told teens is "orgasm everyday"...which is to encourage teenaged sex.
It might be that you & your kid are perfectly fine with that, but then that's a message you're best suited to deliver.
Christ, you are all over the place. WHAT is your point? First you misrepresented the article by complaining it said something it didn't. Now you've changed to complaining that those dumb taco-failing kids can't tell the difference between what you first thought it said and what it actually said (I think the problem there is you, not them).
You also went from saying, "Teaching comprehensive, medically accurate sex-ed is--and should remain--a far cry from encouraging teen sex" to saying only parents should teach their kids about sex because schools suck. While still ignoring that NO ONE WAS ENCOURAGING TEENS TO HAVE SEX.
Are you just picking up any thread and arguing against it, regardless of whether or not it's consistent? 'Cause that kind of seems to be a pattern with you. Just be friggin' honest, don't work so hard to be that "minority opinion" that you championed in the thread about moderation on this site.
OK, lets not go all ad hominem here...Listen, I had a sex positive upbringing & I want it for others, the problem is that this guide goes beyond comprehensive, medically accurate, positively positioned sex ed to actually promoting teenaged sex. That's what "an orgasm a day keeps the doctor away" means & does--it promotes sex. Any other reading is just daft (unless you think kids prefer daily masturbation over daily intercourse). The guide is called “Pleasure” and the article endorsing it is called “The Joy of Sex—for Teens!” So I think it supports sex , go figure!
And, listen, if you think your kid is sophisticated enough for “The Joy of Sex” then God bless the sophistication of you & yours; have that discussion or give them the book. That's a parent's prerogative. That’s not, however, something an already overwhelmed public school can capably deliver to a general audience of kids whom they can’t teach the three R’s.
Here's your logical, straightforward answer:
You cannot get pregnant or get an STD by masturbating. You also do not need to have a partner to masturbate. You will not get dumped by a vibrator.
Teenagers, while young, are not so stupid that they are incapable of comprehending that masturbation is safer than partner sex.
Also, as a teenager, I learned from sex ed books (Catholic school sex-ed class consisted mostly of "You will get an STD and DIE if you do not save it for marriage") that while most women can happily have orgasms with a vibrator, orgasms from intercourse are much rarer for many women. I had no reason to expect that I would have orgasms from partner sex at all, much less better ones.
More long and anecdotal:
Even today, although I am happily partnered and have been for 5+ years, I do not typically have orgasms during partner sex. Masturbation and partner sex are not interchangeable for most people, nor are orgasms the sole point of either activity.
And if you think teenagers aren't masturbating in much greater numbers than they're having partner sex, or shouldn't masturbate because it might lead to partner sex, you're seriously divorced from reality. The suggestion to masturbate is suggesting to teenagers--pretty damn clearly, IMO--that masturbation is a SAFE outlet for sexual energy and feelings, one that won't get you pregnant, give you an STI, or break your year. "An orgasm a day" is a goofy way to put it, but the suggestion to masturbate INSTEAD of rushing into sex is a pretty common one in reasonable sex ed programs, and it's been around since "Our Bodies, Our Selves," which was the book my mother handed me when I got my first period.
And yes, I technically chose to "lose" my virginity as a teenager, but I was 19 and a legal adult, which makes it no one's business but mine and my partner's. 5 years later, I have managed to continue being a functional adult with a healthy relationship (with the same person! *gasp*), and I have been privileged enough to not have to work at Taco Bell.
Which, seriously? Stupid, stupid argument. Fast food workers of all ages get orders wrong, and it is one of the shittiest, most stressful jobs out there. Minimum wage workers in a high-stress environment just don't have much incentive to remember if you wanted the onions left off--that doesn't make them stupid.
"I think you're pointing out far more flaws in social systems than in students themselves." ... "The guide discusses masturbation as a healthy and normal thing, and I took the "orgasm a day" phrase as a tongue-in-cheek way to say, 'Hey, go ahead, explore your body, it's perfectly healthy.' "
You hit the nail on the head Nicole. Kids are products of social systems (parents, community, school). If we can't trust schools to teach them the very basics, how can we trust schools to teach something as nuanced as: an "orgasm a day"--if its masturbation but not if its actually intercourse--"keeps the doctor away"?
This is where parents come in. Since we're not going to have "AP Sex Ed", I'd submit that if your kid is sophisticated enough to get the "orgasm a day" message, then you should tell them that yourself because there's no practical way an overtaxed, underfunded school system can deliver it to just the students mature enough to handle it.
Contrary to popular belief, teenagers aren't kids. I'm not saying they are adults, but they shouldn't be roped in with children. Also consent laws in the majority of states set the age at 16, and a lot of those even leave the rules for teens between 13 and 16 up to their parents.
Also: "Even with comprehensive, medically accurate sex ed, what makes you think teens are actually informed?" If someone gives you some information, does it not stick for you? Think back to when you were a teen; did you not pay attention in school or something? Because it's been my experience that teenagers can indeed retain information. Why do you assume teenagers "can't find Kansas on a map"? Immaturity and inability to cope with sexual relationships can come at any age. Why is it that teenagers having sex is such a bad thing?
"Teenagers can't even take aspirin at school without supervision & yet we think that they're generally mature enough for sex?"
Well, yes. Teenagers who can't take aspirin at school are prohibited from doing so because of stupid school rules that are ageist and unnecessary. I would argue that teenagers certainly are mature enough for aspirin, and some of them are mature enough for sex.
"Some" is the key word here. I'm reminded of a conversation I had with a friend last night at the Harry Potter premiere--we were making jokes about whether the characters in the movie are sleeping together, and my friend said, "Wow, I would really hope not at their age!" And I said, "Why not? I did at their age. So did most of my friends."
It shouldn't matter if you're 19 or 15. It should matter if you're ready. Some 15-year-olds are; some 20-year-olds aren't. And in fact, I really wish someone would have told me at 16, "lighten up! It's just sex." It's neither encouragement nor discouragement, just acknowledgment that your choices are your own to make.
First of all, it doesn't ENCOURAGE teen sex, it merely states that it EXISTS. And that it cannot be ignored like it doesn't happen because it DOES.
And I am really, REALLY offended by what you said about teens not being able to take aspirin and make tacos so they shouldn't be able to have sex. I want to know what the fuck that has to do with anything. Believe it or not, teenagers are not just dumb kids who never know what is right for them. They are people with brains and most of them know how to think and make decisions (WHOA imagine that!). And they know how to take aspirin, but schools have the same "those darn kids just can't think!!!" attitude you have so they restrict it for no reason. Grouping teenagers into a huge, sweeping stereotype of stupid fast food workers is ridiculous and uncalled for.
It is these attitudes that made my life a living hell in high school because everyone treated me like I was 8 years old. Seriously, talk TO teenagers instead of AT them. You might be surprised.
I'm 17 and I don't feel pressure from this article to have sex at all and that's not because I'm already sexually active.
It seems the article is telling the truth. I'm reading this and it's finally defending the teenagers that have made a sexual choice and yeah, we're sick of having abstinence pushed down our throats. And the whole Taco Bell comment is a tad ignorant. Fast food jobs are harder than people think because of the crap and stress that comes with the job. I know people in corporate offices that can't work in fast food but yet they're getting paid higher than minimum wage.
I mean I'm 17 and yeah I may still be in high school but I'm pretty sure I'm smart enough to educate myself on STD's, to know hot to put a condom on, to be in birth control, and to get my boyfriend and I tested. I'm pretty insulted that you are here stereotyping every teenager in America.
P.S. Pop culture doesn't really make teenagers want sex. Actually it gives us a lot of self-esteem issues if anything.
Some corrections. I mean how to put a condom on and to be on birth control. I was typing pretty fast.
I love this post, particularly because my mother always seemed to subscribe to the magical button theory which infuriated me. And cattrack2, the post does not encourage teen sex, it encourages people respecting teens rights to their bodies. And for the record, when I was in high school which wasn't *too* long ago, most of the people I knew were having sex. Responsibly, with protection.
Conservative scare tactics are bad. So are liberal scare tactics, like my parents', who basically taught me that any sex that applied to me would almost by definition be rape - thus not only stunting my sexual growth and leaving me with a deep sense of shame and anxiety about healthy sex, but also leaving me completely unprepared when it came to where I actually wanted my boundaries to be.
However, I think it's important to remember that teens (on average) really are less able to have good sexual experiences because they are less emotionally and sexually mature. We shouldn't be fighting abstinence-only bullshit by yelling that teens like sex, too; we should be fighting it by spreading the word that sex is a healthy thing that real people do, BUT that teens need to learn how to explore it in a way that is safe, healthy, and mature.
"I know you didn't single out teen girls. But that is who the purity movement is directed at."--Well I'm not the purity movement & I'm not supporting the double standard. We can't let the purity movement define us. We're not "for" everything they're "against".
"They are informed because they have the information...I don't know about you but I learned about KS in grade 3"--I knew about KS before grade 3; your snark aside, I doubt you have a high degree of confidence in our public education system, or if you do deep familiarity with student achievement.
I had a button.
Nothing magical about it.
Mostly plastic and wires soldered on to my nervous system.
But then again, as a robot, I can't feel.
In the end, said button didn't do anything.
what liberals don't and will never understand is that being for abstinence does not make you necessarily a promoter of the double standard .
Saying that abstinence is in itself a double standard and sexual activity is in itself a progress for women is nothing else but a paternalistic manipulation of feminism for a personnal agenda , a personnal disgust toward christians and abstinence.
The reasons for this behavior are maybe jealousy or the desperate and naive attempt to be accepted in a society where the entertainment industry has created the idea that sex ALONE is an empowering activity.
Who ever said sex is empowering? I personally don't think sex is empowering if it's something you're doing for attention, something you're doing because you feel you have too, or doing it when you don't want too. I think the empowerment is saying that being able to make your own sexual decisions, be satisfied of that choice, and be educated about that choice.
And abstinence is pretty much a double standard. Trust me I did whole project about abstinence-only education in America vs. Sex Education in America for my health class before school went out for the summer and even though most abstinence funded programs are supposed to reaching out to both sexes, it focuses more on women. They tell girls about how they're respect is about saving it till marriage and pretty much if you don't men will not respect you (not in those exact words but it's pretty close). Now I'm not going to say they're wrong but....I'm not a virgin and I get respect from damnly every male and female I meet because I demand it, that's what respect comes from. As well as abstinence education tends to also blame rape victims a lot that were considered "slutty" because of course sluts ask for rape. There's even abstinence education that tells girls how to dress because you know if they show skin they're just asking to be raped. Trust me I've been in enough abstinence classes to know what I'm talking about. Abstinence classes also have a huge lack amount of talking about GLBT teens which has always annoyed me a little.
And personal disgust towards christianity and abstinence? I'm sorry but I laughed out on that way. Me personally I'm a feminist and I grew up in the church. I still don't consider myself a christian because the church just didn't work out for me but I respect my family members and friends that stuck to christianity. I have nothing against that as long as they respect my beliefs and others as well. Same with my best friend. She's not really a christian but she has a high respect for it as well as a respect for other things and I even defended christianity for her and out of respect when people at my school were bashing the religion. Just because someone doesn't agree with something doesn't mean they hate it. Same with abstinence. I have friends that are abstaining from sex until they fall in love or until they meet that special someone. I don't knock them down for it, I respect it just like they respect the choices I made. Trust me I have no disgust with people's personal beliefs.
And the jealousy one made me laugh harder. Why would anyone be jealous of an abstinence class or the abstinence movement? I just don't understand that. But moving on.....and I have no reason to feel desperate to fit in with society. I hate our society enough to not want to be apart of it but honestly I still don't what you mean with this whole thing about being jealous, or desperate to fit in or whatever. I think you're just now blowing some steam.
But honestly I don't know what entertainment industry you're looking at that promotes sex is empowering. The entertainment industry uses sex as a marketing tool if you ask me.
you say "As well as abstinence education tends to also blame rape victims a lot that were considered "slutty" because of course sluts ask for rape."
Is abstinence education a person who decides to be sexist or not or just a concept that is not sexist or feminist but that is used by sexist or feminist people ?
I'v , in my family , a person who has been victim of rape . I , in the same time promote abstinence . Then if i "trust" your inability to be ligcial what i did is i took my family member responsible for the rape ? just because i promote abstinence
? Do you think this is what i did ? Do you think this is what i believe ?
I didn't mean you as a person. Maybe you're taking it personally. I don't recall putting your name in it or using you as an example or attacking their supporters. I'm talking simply about what a lot of abstinence classes teach. Also if you look more into the quote you just used, abstinence tends to only blame "slutty" girls for rape, not all women. I'm pretty sure you're for abstinence for a personal reason but I'm just informing what some abstinence classes do teach.
Like I said I have friends who are abstinent and believe in waiting for the right person. I definitely don't think they blame people for rape either.
No one's mentioned Christians or religon in this thread. I don't know who's jealous or what they're jealous of. And both you and cattrack2 seem to think that just because YOU PERSONALLY don't view abstinance as a double standard, it doesn't matter that the abstinent movement does. In reality, it doesn't really matter if you and cattrack2 think both boys and girls should keep their clothes on; like many things feminists complain about, it's all about the societal expectations we're pressured to conform to.
And no one's saying that sex alone is empowering, but that having enough accurate knowledge about it (including the fact that people have it because, hey, it feels good) in order to decide for yourself whether or not to have it is.
oh and one last thing : the idea that sex alone is empowering is a MYTH .
I think it may be a generalization that all teens have sex - I'm 16 and I know a ton of teens who are not, and not even for reasons of "abstinence"- all teens are different, that's the bottom line. However, I think it's undeniable that no matter what better sex education, that acknowledges that teens DO HAVE SEX, is essential
Go Miranda! I love women's glib. thefbomb.org will always look up to you, come post with us, too, if you'd like!
I have to say that I completely agree with your comments on fast food. It is NOT that easy. Even after I've worked at a fast food restaurant for three years, it's still a lot of pressure to get orders out to huge families who expect them in less than 3 minutes. It requires memorization, extreme multitasking, not to mention a lot of ACTING... especially when customers are assholes. People shouldn't assume that young people are stupid and incapable of everything... believe it or not we have skills. And brains. And thoughts.
Ageism sucks.
Oops, sorry, this was supposed to be a reply to Shaniquequa's post above.
Is there a magical button, somehow pressed when a person turns 18, that suddenly allows them to experience sexual desire, pleasure, and satisfaction?
Yes, I believe that, in the context of sex with other people, it's pressed when one has an experienced, interested and able sex partner. I sure as hell don't know many women who had one of those when they were teenagers.
For that and countless other reasons, sex doesn't always feel good, and I think it's awfully dismissive and ignorant of a host of experiences for that quote to suggest it necessarily is.