What We Missed
Apparently women play better when they don't know their opponents are men in chess.
Could you date a person that isn't down with feminism?
AIDS activists shut down US Capitol rotunda over Obama reversal on AIDS policy.
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I don't know if this is the place for it, but here is a mild rant on even foods being assigned a gender:
http://www.sirensmag.com
Dating people, men or women, who aren't down with feminism is a tough one. That article is specifically about dating men, but I've known (but never dated) some lesbians and bi women who weren't down with the big F either.
Since I have been a self-declared feminist, I have only reached the relationship level with two men. The first paid me so much freaking lip-service; honestly I believe he just bought into the whole Girls Gone Wild portrayal of young feminists. He said he marched on Washington for reproductive rights, but at the same time got incredibly indignant if I didn't want to fuck. Blech.
The second guy, who I am currently with, agrees with some of the basic tenets of feminism: equal opportunity for everyone, lack of government intrusion in people's personal lives, basic education and healthcare for the masses. His approach of how to get there, however, involves a lot of paranoia about big government and a definite libertarian philosophy. Though I am a huge fan of government aid and think that popular libertarianism in its current state (i.e. Ron Paul) does more harm than good, the fact that we meet on some basic ideals is the key. And, since this man is willing to disagree with me just as much as I am willing to disagree with him, instead of paying lip service, I feel like his commitment to my ideas is truer, just as I can be committed to his ideas after actually engaging him in discussion.
Not only could I date someone who "isn't down with feminism," I probably will have no choice. Having Asperger's makes my dating pool so astronomically low, if not nonexistent, that I do not have the privilege of being picky about such things. It'll be enough just to have someone give a shit about me, which so far has not happened.
"Not only could I date someone who 'isn't down with feminism,' I probably will have no choice. Having Asperger's makes my dating pool so astronomically low, if not nonexistent, that I do not have the privilege of being picky about such things."
You still should have the right to be "picky" about such things! True, having someone offer to date you or me in the first place is a privilege, but "no means no" still applies.
For example: if one day the only person willing to date you is someone who disrespects you (or is even worse to you) then you should still have the choice of not dating anyone instead! Someone who would take that choice away from you and force you to date this person who disrespects you (or is even worse to you) would be taking away one of your rights.
Unfortunately, something like that already happens to many women and girls IRL (forced to marry guys they don't want instead of being allowed to choose to stay single instead).
I'm pretty sure the comment was in reference to a cost-benefit analysis making it a lower priority to many other issues. Not a feeling that the poster would feel obligated to date anyone who asked. At least that's how I read the it.
The chess article is fascinating and really supports what I've experienced personally for years.
Whenever I'm competing against a man in any way I get so nervous and so worried that I'm going to make my gender look bad that I end up performing very poorly.
Even when I'm performing a task and I know a man or men may be watching me it makes me nervous and mess up whatever I'm doing. For example, driving with a man in the passenger seat. I'm a very good driver and I have a lot of confidence. But I feel like I have to prove myself when I'm driving with a male.
The whole time I'm thinking, "I have to really do a good job at this because I know if I do poorly people will think it's because I'm female and I'll just be perpetuating damaging stereotypes about women." But this lack in confidence and lack of focus just makes the task I'm trying to accomplish so much harder.
I've heard that there's a similar effect with POC competing in certain areas (such as standardized tests) against white people. Many POC feel that they really need to perform especially well in order to disprove harmful stereotypes. But worrying about performing well just undermines their performance.
This is one kind of irony that is so not hilarious. It really sucks.
Does anyone else experience this? Also, I wonder if the men in that study performed better or worse according to the gender they believed they were competing against.
I met my ex-wife in high school chess club. She was just learning how to play but had a quick learning curve.
We played for years and had a great time. Until we got married, that is. After that somehow the stress of playing, wining and loosing became to much for her.
There was just something about that invisible line that made a world of difference in how she experienced a game we had played for years and had fun with.
There is a name for the opposite of stereotype threat--that is when men do better against women than they do against men. I can't remember what it's called though. The chess study isn't surprising though. It's been shown more than once when men and women take math tests and are reminded of their gender, women do worse.
As for aid, does anyone know why countries are aiming for 0.7% of GDP rather than 0.7% of the budget. This confuses me.
"Stereotype lift" is the opposite of stereotype threat.
For example, if a person records their ethnicity as "asian" before taking a math test, they will score better on the test than if they record their ethnicity afterwards.
Regarding your aid question, I'm no expert, but I would imagine it gives them a more meaningful framework. GNP (which is what I think they use, as opposed to GDP) is a real indicator of wealth, whereas a budget is just a budget, dependent upon political factions, political climate, and ideology.
I have mixed feelings about whether I believe this. It could be true for more "amateur" players (for the record I'm HUGE into chess - been playing for years and I follow all the top tournaments) - but at higher levels, there are some extremely good female players in the world, who compete well against the top male players.
The best of course is Judit Polgar, highest rated female player of all time. But there are many others. They have often beaten some of the best grand masters in the world. I wonder what they would think of this?
Again, it could be that these are professional players who play chess for a living, and who naturally play lots of men. So perhaps they have "gotten over" that fear. Or else they could be rare gems in the world of chess who are less effected by it. Because as much as someone like Judit Polgar is really really strong - I don't think a woman has ever been higher then about #10 in the world, and no woman has ever come anywhere close to challenging for, let alone winning, the world championship. I'm not sure we'll ever see that day. But doesn't mean we can't give them a good fight!
Not only could I date someone who "isn't down with feminism," but I probably will have no choice. Having Asperger's makes my dating pool so astronomically low, if not nonexistent, that I really don't have the privilege of being picky about such things. I'd be lucky enough just to have someone give a shit about me, which so far has not happened.
:(
My current (and first ever) romantic/sexual partner is such an amazing feminist. He's set the bar pretty high for any potential future partners. I didn't really understand what feminism was before we started dating.
Because of this relationship I now have trouble even being friends with people who don't staunchly identify as feminists.
I am definitely privileged in this sense.
About the dating situation, for me, it's not so much whether or not he would label himself as a "feminist" (though my current partner does), but whether or not his personal beliefs and actions identify with the feminist values that I find very important, such as equality for everyone. I think the same goes with friends, as well.
Right on! :)
I live in the bible belt...this area isn't exactly known for its overwhelming number of feminists.
I'd settle for someone who shares most of the same views as I do, even if they don't drop the F bomb when referring to themselves. Even that is asking a lot.
"F bomb," hee hee
Yes!
When doing something typically classed as 'masculine', I always worry about how I'm representing for women. For example, I'm bad at chess. I like to play, but I'm lousy. I'm nervous about who I play with, because I don't want to confirm sexist beliefs that women are bad at chess, when really there are tons of women who are fabulous - I'm just not one of them.
Case and point:
http://xkcd.com/385/
That was meant as a reply to Lumix.
Its called Stereotype Threat. I'm sorry I don't have any studies to link at the moment but I might go searching and come back with some.
Studies have been done with women doing a driving test; when their gender is activated in their mind they perform worse. A similar effect occurs with asians due to the popular racist stereotype.
An interesting effect occurs when women were asked to perform a complex maths exam (i think the study was done with engineering students- so they were all adept) and again, females performed worse when their gender was activated. However, asian females performed worse when their gender was activated but better when their race was activated.
We're affected by these stupid stereotypes often without even realising it. GRR.
I was just going to post something similar. I heard about it on WNYC's Radio Lab podcast.
Even white folks aren't immune. In one study white test takers underperformed for a golf challenge when primed with a statement that the test was a measure of inherent athletic ability.
Seriously? Inherent athletic ability?
Is it a stereotype that white's aren't inherently athletic? I would think that whites would have the tendency of being stereotyped as being inherently athletic.
You'd also think that because it's golf, there are some stereotypes attached to whites and that particular sport. I know it's common fodder for comedians.
That was meant as a reply to Lumix.
I would date guys who are open-minded that aren't feminist. I don't believe in closing myself off to all people who disagree with my ideologies, however, it just depends (I'm vegan and most of my boyfriends have been meat eaters). My current boyfriend is probably more feminist now than he was when we met. I think I've opened his eyes to a lot of things he never really considered or thought about and we've had a lot of meaningful conversations about things... He still doesn't really identify as a feminist, but a lot of his views are definitely on key.
One thing that irritated me about the article - she sort of reinforced the idea that being vocal or speaking up about things like porn makes you an annoying feminist. THAT bothers me.
It bothers me because it supports normalized beliefs (and it's a tactic usually used by the elite to silence radicals). Unfortunately - normalized beliefs can be vocalized non-stop (as this culture does with pro-porn type things) and go unchallenged... but anytime a radical belief is expressed, it's automatically stigmatized... I don't like that because it totally encourages people to live in denial.
In my view, it's not "closing [oneself] off" to demand that the person I'm sharing my life with supports and is willing to fight for equality. My husband and I disagree on some things. For example, I'm firmly anti-death penalty in all cases, while he is a little bit more open to the idea in specific cases. However, when it comes to the idea of human equality, I refuse to compromise on it. If he does not value me as an equal, why would I want to be with him? Even more important, if he is not supportive of and willing to fight for women's rights, why would I want him helping raise my daughter? I want her to believe that nothing is closed to her. I want her to believe that she is as good as any male in this world. I grew up with a chauvinistic father. I'm not willing to allow my daughter to do the same.
*peers into fridge*
Lessee. Yogurt. Kimchee. Kondaments. Beer. Wiskey on top of the fridge.
I eat feminine, drink masculine.
*whiskey. And I need to go shopping.
I'm the opposite. I drink feminine and eat masculine XD Of course, I've got my feminine foods too. What can I say, I love things that taste good and sweet.
I LOVE whiskey! Now you're making me thirsty!
Last night, I had three separate dreams: the first one of me giving a speech about sandwiches, the second about being at a BBQ and being offered pigs feet and then devouring it. The third was about being at a Mexican restaurant!
I really miss a strong, salty, yummy dirty martini - or maybe a couple.
I am sorry if this had nothing to do with feminism - I just got excited by alcohol and food talk!
We are having a great discussion about dating, but if I may hijack the thread, there are some great pictures of women protestors from Iran in this story on Daily Kos:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/7/9/751788/-Tehran-Street-PhotosThe-Genie-is-Out-of-the-Bottle
Iran reminds us that in some countries, feminism can literally be a life or death struggle.
Thanks for the link, and I also found this comment interesting
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2009/7/9/174013/2123/266#c266
by Husker Nation on Thu Jul 09, 2009 at 05:32:47 PM PDT
"It is interesting how the traditional female headwear of Muslim wisdom is being used to somewhat hide identity. Men are wearing surgical masks while the women are wearing the traditional headwear. It is interesting that what would seem to be a very traditional and controlling form of religious dress is being used to destabilize some of the very things it was intended to support. A good lesson to be learned as we encounter different cultural phenomenon designed to keep people in their places."
In some of the actual photos women are wearing surgical masks too. For example, hijab and surgical masks, instead of hijab and niqab, to somewhat hide identity.
Is it a sign of the times that when I first saw someone wearing the hijab and surgical mask combo in the news a few weeks ago I thought "swine flu"?
Meanwhile, a few minutes ago when I saw these pics one of my thoughts was "are those masks handy for keeping out fumes from a bozo down the street burning stuff for the heck of it?" It seems that whenever people take to the streets for a reason (dodgy elections, sports victories, etc.) a few other people use it as an excuse to wreak havoc (see http://www.complex.com/ENTERTAINMENT/FEATURES/Sports-Riots-A-History-of-Violence )..
I found the article on chess interesting and I believe part of the problem also stems from societal conditioning that women should never perform better at anything (except childbirth and breastfeeding, of corse) than men. Not sports, not science, not comedy, not strategy...not even cooking-hence the ratio of male chefs vs. female chefs.
I don't know about other women but when I was growing up I was told to be careful about "beating" boys at anything, else it might shatter their fragile pride. There's still a certain amount of shame attached to getting bettered by a woman...especially physically.
"Afraid you'll lose to a girl?"
It drives me insane. What holds me back when competing with males is old instincts based on sexist conditioning through my childhood.
It hurts both genders. It tells women they will never be anything but inferior to men and it's forbidden to even try to match or exceed a male's abilities. It tells men they're pussies if they fail to win against female competitors every time, no matter what the challenge is.
Women are not inherently stupid, weak, frightened little wisps that lack the capability of exceeding at more than childbirth and childrearing.
Men are not inherently endowed with such fragile pride and confidence that they can't bear to lose to someone with xx chromosomes. They are not incapable of housework and childrearing.
I agree completely. I don't remember if I was explicitly told to be careful about hurting men's egos when growing up or if it was something I learned through dealing with men (mostly my brothers) and seeing how humiliated they were when I outperformed them at anything.
Related to the people-pleasing conditioning and not wanting to hurt the fragile male ego, I've also noticed that I smile at men even when I'm really pissed off at them.
This is so frustrating to me. Has anyone else experienced this? When I'm having an argument with my boyfriend I'll be angry about something but I'll smile at him anyways and he'll say, "well you can't be as upset as you claim since you're smiling."
But it feels involuntary, like laughing when you're tickled.
Am I just a freak?
I don't think you're a freak at all. I often lie to my husband and tell him nothing's wrong when I'm fuming inwardly. It's mostly when he does things that he should know by now pisses me off...like leaving dirty dishes out instead of putting them in the dishwasher, leaving cans laying around or throwing his dirty clothes on the floor instead of in the laundry basket. Sometimes I get so mad I'm afraid if I say anything I'll explode at him so I pretend I'm hunky-dory to avoid a fight or hurt feelings.
I know a lot of women that do this, even when their anger isn't directed at the man in question. We're supposed to be "pleasant" at all times and social conditioning subconsciously bites a lot of us despite our desire to freely express ourselves. :-(
"I don't think you're a freak at all. I often lie to my husband and tell him nothing's wrong when I'm fuming inwardly. It's mostly when he does things that he should know by now pisses me off...like leaving dirty dishes out instead of putting them in the dishwasher, leaving cans laying around or throwing his dirty clothes on the floor instead of in the laundry basket. Sometimes I get so mad I'm afraid if I say anything I'll explode at him so I pretend I'm hunky-dory to avoid a fight or hurt feelings."
That reminds me of when I talk to my mom and she says things that she should know by now piss me off...
What makes things worse is when women reinforce the idea that women shouldn't do as well in things as men by socially ostracizing girls who have talent and know it. I did really well in math as a kid, and I took a LOT of flak from other girls. I was even discriminated against by a female teacher who allowed several boys, but not me, to work above grade level until my parents called her on it. I realize in hindsight that some of the problems I had with other girls were because the lack of differentiated instruction in math was just as hard on students with learning disabilities as it was on me. But I still think a significant part was backlash against me for daring not just to do as well as or better than the boys in math, but to KNOW I was doing well.
My mom, who is in her sixties, was raised to always make the man feel that he was superior at things. She doesn't live it, exactly, but she is influenced by it. For instance, she had no qualms about telling my former male landlord that he was laying the bricks for a path incorrectly. On the other hand, she was shocked that my brother's female friend asked him whether he needed his "wussy boy wetsuit" for a snorkling trip. Our training sneaks up on us sometimes.
Well, this whole needle exchange business is a shame. I mean seriously Barack? You can spend 800 billion dollars in a stimulus plan that amounts to throwing it up in the air and setting it on fire with a flamethrower, and you can't spend the (relatively speaking) pennies it takes to fund a needle exchange program?
Give. Me. A. Break.
Epic Fail, Barack. Epic Fail.
I will never again date a woman who is not at least feminist-sympathetic, and I would be a bit wary of any relationship where she didn't outright identify as feminist. It is exhausting and frustrating. A few things that stand out from my last relationship:
-- If I don't censor my feminism I do things like call out sexist ads, complain about news coverage or just blame the patriarchy in general. If there's a way to move things beyond "I'm a girl and I think it's fine so you're wrong," I did not find it.
-- Related to that, it was hard to handle when she used sexist stereotypes. She maintained that women were, on average, too emotional to be good at poker or chess. It annoyed me, but wasn't worth a fight.
-- Similarly, I would always worry about whether or not I was using privilege in the various tugs of war that come with any relationship. Knowing she wasn't really down with the concept and wouldn't call me out, I policed myself that much harder. Agonizing.
It got to the point where I had some pop-feminist books and hid them when my girlfriend came over so I wouldn't have to get into it. Yeah, not really healthy...
I'm surprised that the woman in the article's boyfriend won't identify with feminism because of stereotypes. If he's a guy, he's already proving them wrong.
My ex didn't consider himself a feminist, but he didn't believe in the term at all-- said that you can support feminism but not be a feminist... he had some bs reason about how feminism encompasses too many things. When we first started dating, he didn't believe feminism was necessary and thought there was total gender equality. After dating me for a few months, he realized he was wrong, and after we'd been dating for a while, he proudly introduced me to his older sister's feminist friend that he was trying to impress as, "This is ___, my girlfriend. She's a feminist!"
I don't know where he stands on things now, though.
More Reading:
Judith Warner, Dangerous Resentment
http://warner.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/09/dont-hate-her-because-shes-educated/
Warner describes antagonism towards well-eduacted, high-earning mothers, and encounters said antagonism in the comments section. Many feministing readers are young, early 20's and younger, and may not realize how common it once was for 12 yr-olds to babysit.
--
Re: On dating:
I need at least a 3 page checklist to screen potential partners: feminist? queer friendly? gender-queer friendly? body hair friendly? and on and on. Screw these OKCupid and EHarmony questionnaires. Who's on board to make a Feminist dating site with questionaires that matter?
Interesting. If you don't want to read it, basically a mom left her three kids and two of their friends (ages 8, 7, 3 and two 12 year-olds) at the mall and drove home. It doesn't seem clear which were her kids. The 12-year olds left the kids in the purse section of Macy's and went to try on shirts which is how the police found them. The mother was charged with child endangerment.
The worse thing here I think is that it wasn't just her kids she left there but her kids' friends and I'm going to guess that the friends' parents didn't consent to that. Otherwise, well, I personally think a lot of the commenters don't give older children enough credit. To some extent, I think 12 year olds can be irresponsible because we have lower expectations of children that age than we used to. We are so afraid for our children and ourselves even when we live in a really safe neighbourhood. My mom and her sister were biking on their own when they were 10 and 12 and I have an 11 year old cousin who I don't think will be going anywhere alone for a while. One commenter mentioned sie was afraid to leave hir *18-year old* alone at the mall.
Correction: The article links to something written by the mother herself where she says she got permission by both her husband the mother of the other kids. She says the mall is a family place in a small town that is very safe.
I'm going to guess that the friends' parents didn't consent to that.
We don't have any information about the friends parents' feelings on leaving them without adult supervision. Based on the commentor's reactions, you could be spot on. However, you could be completely wrong. People closer to Warner's age, which the other parent might be, were frequently left without adult supervision and frequently babysat younger kids at 12. I was a baby sitter at that age, and my sister's were, too. I was without adult supervision at younger than 12, too. Times are way different now, that's for sure. Whether that's for the better really is subject to debate. I haven't seen any evidence that child-snatching has decreased in the last 20-30 years. If it's out there, please share. I do appreciate data. It's not entirely clear cut that child-snatching was ever so rampant as to even justify the decreased independence that today's youth have with respect to the youth of my era. Some kids are snatched right from their homes, presumable where they are safest. Most snatched kids are snatched by non-custodial parents, not strangers, anyway. That's a whole subject in and of itself.
Yep, I corrected myself. I really think the article linked to should have a little more background information.
Another commenter commented times are different in 2009. I would wager that, especially in certain places, we are just as safe or safer than in the past. I'm sure I've also heard there are less kidnappings. The way times are different is that people are more scared and don't trust parents to know what's best for their children. Yes, some parents will endanger their children but that is a small minority. Seeing the way some mothers are judged turns me off of having kids. I know I judge how mothers parent but I try not to. I feel like it's so acceptable to do.
I'm 26, and was left home alone for
Leaving two twelve-year-olds with three younger kids at a small, safe mall strikes me as something that could likely be done safely, depending on the kids involved. However, adolescents who are being new responsibilities need to be taught how to handle those responsibilities. A wise parent who left younger children at a mall in the care of 12-year-olds would give the 12-year-olds strict instructions to stay with the younger kids, and to call the parent if anything went wrong.
Sorry, the code screwed up my comment: I was left home alone for periods of time less than 10 minutes when I was 9, and then progressed by the time I was 11 to being left home alone for a couple of hours at a time. I think I was about as responsible as the average kid my age.
wow - that's crazy. I'm 27, and the approximate age spread on the kids is like that of my family (when I was 12, my brother was 8 and my sister 2). We regularly did things like go to the movies and the swimming pool -- imagine that, a darkened room where kids could get molested or snatched, and a huge pool of water to drown in! I love the indignant fainting "she left them, of all places, the mall!" Of all places indeed! An enclosed building with patrolling security guards, Code Adam, security cameras, and emergency first aid services! Heavens!
I agree that it has everything to do with resentment of mothers and a generalized hypervigilance and infantilization of today's kids, but I don't think it has that much to do with social class and educational attainment. Replace the privileged mother with a poor mother of color, and the children would have been taken by CPS and the mother jailed, no question. I think the value in this story is that it tells the largely privileged readers of Brain, Child that "it can happen to them." Hopefully that would cause people to stop and think a bit before they brand mothers "bad mothers." There was a little bit of "she should have known better" in the comments, but if she were the hypothetical poor mother of color, it would be a much more overt "she's incompetent/'too stupid' to parent."
Don't get me wrong, I think that there is a generalized hatred toward women who dare to try and "have it all" by resuming work outside the home when they have kids, but I think this story is a little bit diagonal to that issue.
I was really dismayed reading that article about dating a feminist and the comments that followed. My boyfriend is absolutely a feminist and I love that he is not afraid to say it.
He's not afraid of the label or the stigma behind that word because he isn't afraid to let others know that he respects me, believes that I have the right to make my own decisions concerning my body, doesn't view me as a commodity, and feels that it's not right that I can't feel as safe walking down the street as he does. If others have a problem with him identifying as a feminist he has no problem educating them on why he is and what it means to be one.
Of course I couldn't date him if he wasn't like that because, even if he treats me respectfully, to me rejecting feminism means he either doesn't actually view me as an equal or doesn't want to admit to others that he views me as an equal.
I've been known to walk away from women at bars and other places after being told they no longer see the point of feminism in America in (insert year here.)
Way I see it is that feminism is almost like a culture or religion - why bother spending time with someone who you're going to invest time in for a potential relationship if that person isn't a feminist?
Of course, this is not to say that just because a person is a feminist, it's going to work. There are many different types of feminists, and even at that, other factors matter, too.
Finding feminists to date is hard as is. Finding a feminist who fits into the bigger picture is even harder, I think.
That's why I just hook-up! :D
In response to the article asking whether I could date a non-feminist...
Considering that the only 'feminist' identified man I've dated was by far the worst of the bunch - he treated me terribly and put me through months and months of abuse - yet thinks he can still identify as a feminist since he has a bookshelf full of hooks and de Beauvoir. I still have nightmares about him.
So if a man (I say men though I identify as queer) were to walk the feminist talk without labeling himself as a feminist, that would be fantastic. Though if he also wants to label himself as a feminist, I would be delighted - so long as he really does walk the talk.
So true.
So, Obama reneges on another promise. Surprise, surprise. Really, the only thing that surprises me is that people ever believed him in the first place.
Candidate Obama: Military tribunals are reprehensible and need to be abolished.
President Obama: Well, we'll slightly tweak the tribunals in a way that makes no real difference. They're not as bad as I thought.
Candidate Obama: Let's join the rest of the civilized world by introducing the principals of harm reduction, as embodied by needle exchange programs. I will stop the ban on federal funding of these programs.
President Obama: Wait a minute. I think I'll leave that ban in place. Maybe someday I'll live up to my promise. Just not today.
Candidate Obama: I'm all about equality and the ability of anyone to achieve anything they want in this country.
President Obama: Isn't Larry Summers and his history of misogyny just so damned funny?!
I think that having a sell-out Democrat (which means every Democrat, in reality) can be worse than having a Republican--or at least every bit as bad. At least those who claim to lean left are willing to stand up and scream when a Republican enacts his hateful agenda. When a Democrat does it, they make excuses for him and tell the affected parties to "be patient."