I think that Askmen.com wouldn't be so offensive if it didn't come from such a place of venom and woman hate. Every time a reader sends in another awful thing they have wrote, I appalled at not only the male anxiety displayed in the advice but also the straight up hatred of women. If these guys hate women so much why do they work to figure out ways to be with them, I seriously don't get it. Today's spectacle of sexist male anxiety is about how to make your woman "hotter," or rather "how to upgrade your woman." Cuz you know, women are like cars, phones and computers or something.
For many guys, it can seem as though the quest to find the perfect girl is never ending. When you finally do get your ideal lady it can be a bit disheartening to think that while she is a pretty young thing now, she might not be so appealing in a few years. As time passes your love for her might grow, but so will her love handles. She might be perfect for you in most ways but some things are just a little off, and even though you might not appreciate those imperfections, you would still struggle to think you would end up with anyone else.
It is perfectly acceptable for men to age, get "love handles" and be imperfect. It is women that must always look like caricatures of femininity, forever young, forever thin, forever wrinkle free. The list is ten ways you can make her stay hot including taking cooking classes, or explore culture (racist!) or "take her to a spa," which all seem like the normal fare for sexist, classist and racist examples of things middle class, straight, white couples can do to enjoy themselves. It goes into super crazy-ville when you get to number one and the advice is to "put her under the knife."
If things are really desperate, it might be time for your other half to go under the knife. With the advances in medical science and the current obsession with celebrity culture, cosmetic surgery is becoming more and more common. While it isn't something to be rushed into, nor something to persuade someone to do, surgery can do wonders for the confidence of someone who is less than a sight for sore eyes. And you'll have the bonus of a parading around town with a stunner on your arm.
I wouldn't be so disgusted by this if the rest of society didn't put similar pressure on women to stay thin and attractive as they age, but to also push the idea on men is not OK. I realize Askmen.com is a place for men to feel good about hating women, but ultimately it is just sexist crap that is peddled as advice for the modern day anxious man. I am deeply saddened for the kind of people that buy into this type of thing.
Wow. "Upgrade"?! Like you would a computer or a cell phone?
Well, at least the final suggestion wasn't to replace her with a new model. /sarcasm
It's psychologically difficult to walk away from sunken costs / investments.
With the way these assholes hate women, you would think they were beaten an inch from death by a pack of wild females as children.
That doesnt sound like a bad idea..
Wow. I just read about one that gave advice on how to convince your woman to get an abortion that, among other things, tells you how to, in coded language, remind her that you didn't sign up for a baby and she'll be on her own if she doesn't get the abortion.
CAn't find the right link, though... looking...
it's called "Dealing With An Unwanted Pregnancy", i can't seem to get the article to open on their site though. but that's the name of it.
This one, titled "Women Have Become Too Easy", is pretty bad, too. What do you want to bet that there are "How To Get Her To Have Sex With You" articles on this site that are definitely not directed at married men, too?
There was one "article" posted on here (or was it the community?) a while ago about how to trick your girlfriend or wife into losing weight, or thinking she needs to lose weight. It was DESPICABLE! It had suggestions such as sabotaging her chair so that it breaks underneath her weight. It made me want to vomit. That's when I realized AskMen.com had nothing of value to ever add to my life.
"It is perfectly acceptable for men to age, get "love handles" and be imperfect."
Who told you that? There are some pretty large industries that wouldn't exist if that were true.
The article says very little about what might be expected of a man as he grew older.
Do you believe that the beauty industry for men is the same size as the beauty industry for women?
There's a big gap between "perfectly acceptable" and "as unacceptable as it is for women". The truth is certainly somewhere in that gap.
As a society, the first thing we use to judge a woman is here appearance, the first thing we use to judge a man is his job. Everyone should be able to agree this results in women's appearances being a bigger deal than men's. It's a smaller part of how we're judged (and as far as I can tell, we can generally only shoot for "not specifically offensive").
Whether or not it's really necessary to take the original poster to task for overstating the situation, I don't know.
"Do you believe that the beauty industry for men is the same size as the beauty industry for women?"
No.
Who told you a woman needs to be explicitly "told" something in order to make an assertion about it? Without speaking for Samhita, she is after all a scholar, writer, and activist capable of making deductions and observations of her own. /snark
So she observed on her own that "It is perfectly acceptable for men to age, get "love handles" and be imperfect" without asking anyone with direct experience? That explains it.
I told you I do not presume to answer for her. You are made out of Brillo to me. Goodbye.
You did, however, answer for her, even though I asked her and not you. So long.
Pull it over.
Peppers clearly wrote I told you I do not presume to answer for her Which means, Peppers cannot nor is trying to. Peppers has an opinion on the the matter and desires to share it no matter who might've you asked.
This is a public forum. So if you want direct message from Samhita and ONLY Samhita there is a "contact us" page, use it.
And I responded to her opinion, and she started talking about Brillo and invoked the silent treatment on me. I don't think I was out of line to point out that I hadn't sought her out in the first place and wasn't going to cry because she no longer wanted to talk to me.
Imagine, for a second, having an article exactly like this in, say, marie-claire (although I will admit that I wouldn't put it past cosmo...). For the majority of women's magazines, that would be completely unheard of! Let's imagine this:
For many girls, it can seem as though the quest to find the perfect guy is never ending. When you finally do get your ideal man it can be a bit disheartening to think that while he is a hot young thing now, he might not be so appealing in a few years. As time passes your love for him might grow, but so will his beer belly. He might be perfect for you in most ways but some things are just a little off, and even though you might not appreciate those imperfections, you would still struggle to think you would end up with anyone else.
Why does that sound strange? Because when are men ever objectified so blatantly - never.
I agree. Women have it much worse, I never said otherwise. That doesn't make "It is perfectly acceptable for men to age, get 'love handles' and be imperfect" any less ridiculous an assertion.
Why does that sound strange?
Well, it doesn't, to be honest. That's just the kind of thing they write in Cosmo, etc.
That actually doesn't sound the least bit strange. I've heard this exact sort of concern/complaint many times from women.
In fact I've heard many women tell their husbands/boyfriends "you better not let yourself go" or 'you better not get a beer belly when you get older' right to their face IN FRONT OF OTHERS. I've seen this many many times and it's appalling.
I've never seen a man say something like that in public, to their wife's face, in front of others.
I don't know why some people have this misconception that says that women don't care about looks. Excuse me? Of course we do. I don't know a woman who doesn't. Feministing supports this too - read the threads and you consistently see posts from readers advocating standards and how you should never date someone you aren't attracted to, etc. I don't disagree with this at all. I only disagree with the strange notion that women don't care about looks. I certainly do. Pretty much all women do. Why do you think it's so much harder for a man to get a date then a woman?
An appropriate response to your partner saying "You better not let yourself go" would be, "What a coincidence! I was just about to say the exact same thing to you..."
To me, it sounds incredibly strange. Of course I'm not suggesting women don't care about looks - that's completely derailing my whole point and is a ridiculous statement that anyone would see through. All I'm saying is that I have never seen anything like that in Glamour (which, sue me, I read).
Cosmo might, but only because they are so sexist on both ends of the spectrum. They also often write about how men are "simple creatures" and are "all alike". They dehumanize just as much as askmen.com. BUT try putting that paragraph past ANY other women's magazine!
Everything we're both saying is based on personal experience though, as I have never heard anyone ever say anything like that to anyone's face. But I have heard women be talked about like an object to be upgraded, I have seen advertisements portraying women as less than human, or even dead in a sexy way. I have seen so many more women be portrayed in a way that just screams "sexy is the only power you have, so you had better start working to meet our standards". Why is this article any different from any of those sentiments? When was the last time you saw a carls jr commercial portraying a man posing sexily and eating a hamburger slowly while looking at the camera?
This article is absolutely no different. And if you can find one in which women do it to men, then we need to fight against that in equal measure. Because it is saying that the external is the most important thing, more important than what SHE thinks of herself, or more important than her feelings.
One day in the gym, I was doing my free weight thing near two twentysomething guys who were chatting. As a middle-aged woman, I was invisible to them (heh); they carried on an unguarded conversation about their respective girlfriends. No douchey bragging or affected whining, they were just a couple of guys sharing. And for all the world, they could have been talking about cars. Their girlfriends were just a composition of features and benefits, to be compared to previous girlfriends favorably in some respects (cooks well) but unfavorably in others (doesn't have as good a job).
As somebody who chooses partners based on character, this was an eye-opener for me.
Or you surprised by that? I think 20 year old's in general talk about SOs like trading cards.
And I think it goes downhill. Take a look @ the online d8ing sites. Its like ordering from a catalog & God forbid they should end up with something 'off the rack'.
Careful here, there are probably a lot of 20-year-old people on this site, including me. People of all ages are capable of talking about SOs like trading cards, not just us young'ns. Or am I wrong in thinking this notion is a tad ageist?
Its not ageist, but maturity is *very broadly* correlated with age. Certainly physicality monopolizes much more of the 20yo mind than the 40yo mind, if only because LT relationships, marriage, & child rearing are much more distant issues in your 20s. Moreover with experience & time emotional issues tend to increase in importance; as a friend recently said, "I'm no longer looking for guys who have potential, they have to have achieved it."
And to be sure we're talking generalizations here; you may very well be an outlier. To be fair I know lots of 40yo fools; but I know a lot more 20yo fools :-)
40-year-olds also, on average, have less room to be picky about a partner's appearance.
I agree with Lilith. I'm also in my 20s, as are many of my friends. None of us have ever talked about our SOs like trading cards. I talk about all the things I love about LM, but I never compare Him.
This does strike me as ageist. Age != maturity!
Askmen.com is like Cosmo for morons.
I'm pretty sure Cosmo's already for morons. They're very comparable though
"Cosmo for morons"
is like calling something the
Cadillac of cars
Must ask, Samhita,
why go to askmen at all?
They're such idiots.
I've never read the articles but when I was young I did google hot celebrities, and askmen had lousy pictures. Sounds like a lame operation all around.
I had a (male) student in my grade ten class this year who was all about askmen.com. He would ask me about certain things that he "learned" through the program, for example, "Is it true that women from ________ have sex 35 times a month?" Sometimes when we were in the computer lab, I would catch himm "educating" his friends by showing them askmen.com clips from Youtube. It always hits me in a different way when I have to deal with sexism/racism/classism etc. from my students, because you know when it comes to the young ones, they learned that stuff from US! Adults, you kinda gotta think they know better. I did my best with him, but he always doubted our discussions and the things I would say to him about the askmen bias. Stuff like this really bugs me when it comes to thinking about how their misinformation affects impressionable minds. I can see him reading this like it's fact. Thank you, Askmen, for making our world a better place, and giving me yet another issue to tackle in my classroom.
Certainly using the word "upgrading" is degrading in the context it was used. Very shallow. Glad I don't know these guys.
While we're on this topic, I could use some advice from this crowd. I know this isn't a help-line or advice column, but my topic is related to this post.
I'm in a 16 year long committed relationship with a truly wonderful woman. I knew she was the right person two weeks into the relationship, and have never looked back. Both of us have tried to remain physically fit, we dress nicely, and we care about our appearances. Over the past couple of years, I have increased my physical activity significantly, while she has decreased hers. In addition, we've both just hit 50. Consequently, my partner has put on a significant amount of weight.
How do I broach this subject with her?
I have somewhat of a phobia of being overweight, as both my parents were and my sister is obese, while I have always been skinny. I'm trying to not overreact to my partner's weight gain, but it is starting to become an issue with me.
How do you say to someone that her (his) weight gain is unsightly and a turn-off?
Is it her weight gain you're concerned about or something else? Because, in my experience, a person's appearance has nothing to do with anything. If someone's personality is wonderful, I find it impossible to have a negative view of their appearance.
If I were you I'd thoroughly examine my own feelings rather than saying something about her appearance. This is clearly about you and not her.
THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN DELETED BECAUSE IT VIOLATES OUR COMMENT POLICY.
Umm. I was talking about *me*.
I said:
in *my* experience
*i* find it impossible
if *i* were you
So, based on *my* experience, this is about *you* and not *her*. Change yourself. Not her.
Again, Rob: Epic. Fail.
women are almost always sensitive about weight, because the world makes it such a ridiculous issue. i'm not sure how you would reconcile waning attraction because of her weight gain, but it really is more your problem than hers, so talking to her about it really isn't necessary, you should talk to yourself about your feelings!
is she a generally happy and content person? if so, you might not want to make her self conscious by bringing up her weight gain like it's a big negative (because if she's happy, it's really not an issue for her).
When you do tell her
don't get fat, better tell her
don't get old either.
Interior League
Are you saying that both weight gain and aging are inevitable? Somehow I don't find that believable.
Weight gain can be fought
You have no choice but to age
Unless you die young
Weight gain can be stopped.
Time's ravages find us all.
Take that to the bank.
Conventional norms
of beauty will depart your
partner either way.
Stays she thin, will you
dump her when age becomes an
"unsightly turn-off"?
You cheating donkey
The wheel and bob must be used
For longer missives
Yes, my student, but
do you hear the grasshopper
which is at your feet?
My Eddie once drew
A grasshopper that blew fire
Kids are so scary
My favorite haiku yet :)
Hey Rob,
First, I want to thank you for having the guts to admit honestly how you feel about your partner's body/weight. As far as I know, most everyone is more attracted to one body style or another.
While I agree with the others that gaining weight does not make someone unattractive, I also understand that you are more attracted to slender women.
I'm not in a rush to call you a sexist "fuckhead." In fact, I understand completely. I am attracted to buff, fit guys, myself, and I can understand how someone that you are attracted to gaining weight could present you with a tough topic to discuss.
My advice would be to think it over first. Are you concerned about her health, or your sexual satisfaction, or something else?
If you are truly concerned about her health (as I suspect you are, since you mentioned the rapid gain) sit down with her and talk to her about it. I personally would be impressed if my SO came to me with such an issue and was mature enough to discuss it honestly. Tell her you've noticed the gain (nicely, of course) and you are worried that if it continues, then she may face health problems X, Y and Z. Ask her how she feels about it.
If you are concerned with sexual satisfaction, then I would suggest that you do more active things with your partner, like the suggested cooking healthy meals together.
I don't know much about your partner, but if she is open, then you may even consider coming right out and telling her that you honestly were more attracted to her before the weight, but that you are not going to push her to lose it if she doesn't want to.
You could also discuss the issue with other women in your life--a sister, female friends, etc. and get their advice on whether or not to approach the issue with your SO and how to do if if you do decide to bring it up.
This is a touchy issue, especially on a feminist site, but I again commend you for asking a feminist community rather than something like askmen.com. I also don't think that there is anything wrong with being attracted to a certain shape, and I wouldn't let others' discouragement of your preferences stop you from doing something that will make you more satisfied with your relationship. Does that help?
I should also mention, and this is a major point, that all four of my partners siblings are between significantly overweight to morbidly obese. So there is a familial side of this also.
Weight or no weight, you're both going to lose your looks as you age. If you aren't prepared to be supportive of your aging, less-than-ideal spouse you should probably just bail now and grow old and die alone.
So there is a familial side...does she know? If this is a major part of your worry, then I would not hesitate to bring it up. Much of my family is overweight and have overweight kinds of problems. For instance, my sister is diabetic because of her weight, as is my brother in law. If my own SO were gaining a lot of weight, I would inform him of the consequences to the people in my own family. Not as a coercive measure, of course, but as a caution.
I consider myself a feminist, but I have been defending you against some of the other comments I have seen because they are not insightful or informed for the most part, and many are downright hostile.
I also understand what it is like to be in your SO's place. I recently started dating a very buff army guy, and he really enjoys working out. I am soft, and have hated physical activity for most of my life (I am not overweight, however, just wimpy). But I decided to give his work-out way of life a try...and ended up loving the way it felt to get on a treadmill and feel my muscles working. I have since become stronger and happier with my body (and our sex life) because of his asking me to at least try it.
Again, I encourage you to take measures with your relationship to make sure it is satisfying for both of you.
In that case, the weight gain might be genetically coded and largely outside her control.
people aren't stupid. They know when they gain weight, and they know that there are supposed health risks (though studies have come out recently showing that overweight people are healthier). There is no need to point out the obvious to someone, it just comes off as self-serving.
Why don't you cite these studies so I can go self-serve myself better? I was suggesting a way to bring it up.
no prob, dude. there's about 40+ articles and studies RIGHT HERE: http://kateharding.net/but-dont-you-realize-fat-is-unhealthy/
you asked for it, now go fucking read it.
Thanks, Evan. That was a generous bit of Size Acceptance 101. I understand the employment of an expletive.
"evann," that is.
Hey Rob,
First, I want to thank you for having the guts to admit honestly how you feel about your partner's body/weight. As far as I know, most everyone is more attracted to one body style or another.
While I agree with the others that gaining weight does not make someone unattractive, I also understand that you are more attracted to slender women.
I'm not in a rush to call you a sexist "fuckhead." In fact, I understand completely. I am attracted to buff, fit guys, myself, and I can understand how someone that you are attracted to gaining weight could present you with a tough topic to discuss.
My advice would be to think it over first. Are you concerned about her health, or your sexual satisfaction, or something else?
If you are truly concerned about her health (as I suspect you are, since you mentioned the rapid gain) sit down with her and talk to her about it. I personally would be impressed if my SO came to me with such an issue and was mature enough to discuss it honestly. Tell her you've noticed the gain (nicely, of course) and you are worried that if it continues, then she may face health problems X, Y and Z. Ask her how she feels about it.
If you are concerned with sexual satisfaction, then I would suggest that you do more active things with your partner, like the suggested cooking healthy meals together.
I don't know much about your partner, but if she is open, then you may even consider coming right out and telling her that you honestly were more attracted to her before the weight, but that you are not going to push her to lose it if she doesn't want to.
You could also discuss the issue with other women in your life--a sister, female friends, etc. and get their advice on whether or not to approach the issue with your SO and how to do if if you do decide to bring it up.
This is a touchy issue, especially on a feminist site, but I again commend you for asking a feminist community rather than something like askmen.com. I also don't think that there is anything wrong with being attracted to a certain shape, and I wouldn't let others' discouragement of your preferences stop you from doing something that will make you more satisfied with your relationship. Does that help?
Maybe the reason you're ruffling so many feathers is because your comment comes across as "Wow, 'upgrading' is such a brutally honest way to put it. What nice, softened, diplomatic language should I use to tell my wife I want to upgrade her so that I can get away with it?"
...And assumed due consideration and an answer were owed.
So I guess you did get a few feminist viewpoints, but it is not here that you will get your spouse's exact view on the subject. And that would be the one that matters the most. So just talk to her. Years of reading feminist books would tell you that her opinion, her experience matter the most. Ask her about why she's not exercising as much? Did she find something else that fulfills her needs more? What's really going on with her? Be concerned. Listen. Learn. Take your time. If you are not wondering about those things, if you don't already know what her answers are, you are missing the most important info. Next step: use rules of gentle communication, and be candid, talk about the way you feel, the way you experience the situation, because chances are, the problem is really yours, not hers. And finally, give her the space needed to reply to you in any way she has to. Years of reading feminist material would also tell you that you (and I, and they, and we all) are the product of the society and culture we've been exposed to. While I do believe it's true, I do not believe we can change everything about ourselves. Know why you're attracted to what and who you're attracted to, know how and why you came to be who you are, change what you can, and deal with the rest in a honest, creative and respectful way. By your question, I can see the asshole in you, I can see the asshole in me, the shit in our culture. I can identify with your spouse and call you an asshole for what you're about to ask/say to her. I can identify with you and tell you that your candor is refreshing, or that you're really a hypocrit for saying you're worried about health issues, while, in the same breath saying you're attracted to her only if she weighs 125 lbs. But, that won't get anyone anywhere. Your problem is both your problem, now, you just got to deal with it, by educating yourself and, by talking to your spouse (which will hurt her, but hey, trust that she can take it like a feminist would, at least, that's what I hope for her). I wish her well. Also, I have a 125 lbs frame, I'm 29, I gained 20 lbs in the last two years, I don't see much difference in my appearance and I feel great and if my partner was to come to me and tell me it's a problem for her because I'm not as hot as I used to be, I would simply show her the way out. But I'd rather deal with the situation myself than wait for her to find the solution on the net.
Another thought, Rob: Her weight gain may be related to menopause. It's possible that mood swings are leading her to eat more, or that she feels insecure about her body because of losing her fertility, or that hot flashes are keeping her from wanting to exercise, or any number of other menopause-related things. If her eating and exercise habits have changed, as opposed to just her weight (if it's just her weight, it's probably biological and hard to control), I would talk with her very gently about why. It's possible that she hasn't wanted to confide in you about everything she's been experiencing.
Yes I'm concerned with her weight gain, health-wise. She needs to get more exercise. It isn't like 50 lbs., or something. She has probably put on 15-20 lbs (on a 125 lb frame).
However, it is something else, and it is about me. I admitted as much.
The weight gain has been a sexual turn-off. I am physically attracted to thin women, and for most of our relationship, she has been thin.
Okay, I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and gave you a solid piece of advice. But clearly you are just an asshole who is trying to stir shit up. Go to askmen.com, and they'll tell you what to do. Dumbass.
Health-wise, 15 lbs on a 125lb frame isn't a huge deal.
If anything, I would start cooking both of your meals if you don't already do so. And do the physical activities TOGETHER.
Also, they call them "love handles" for a reason. ^_-
Athenia,
It isn't the amount of weight, it is the rate at which it is being gained: 10-15% over a year.
"How do you say to someone that her (his) weight gain is unsightly and a turn-off?"
Please please please - this is NOT the forum for your own personal issues - and NOT the forum to perpetuate standard notions of what sizes are and are not attractive. How can you come on a FEMINIST website and seriously ask this question?
This is ridiculous - Feministing is a safe space for people of all sizes (among genders, sexualities, races, abilities, etc) and you just completely disregarded that. Please stop.
This is directed @Rob of course.
"This is ridiculous - Feministing is a safe space for people of all sizes (among genders, sexualities, races, abilities, etc) and you just completely disregarded that. Please stop."
But people who are attracted to one body type over another are not welcome? Personal beliefs that don't match yours shouldn't be included?
You sound pretty discriminatory there. Someone came to this community looking for advice, and we have no proof that he just wants his SO to be thin so he can look like a stud, but you're treating him as if he just called us all the C word! He's trying to do something productive to his relationship, it sounds like, and for that, I think we could cut the man some slack. At the very least, we could avoid making assumptions about his personal beliefs and give him some credit for not pulling other stupid shit recommended by askmen.com (like rigging her chair to break, giving her smaller meal portions...). Ther is nothing wrong with trying to find advice to discuss a touchy issue with a partner.
Uh, the OP was condemning the disgusting "upgrade" article on askmen. Rob then asked how he could nicely tell his wife she's getting fat (like omg she didn't know that!) and he's no longer attracted to her. Completely inappropriate on this post, and I would argue at all on a feminist space. Maybe the wife is depressed cause she married a shallow fuckwit and has started eating her feelings.
I think we could cut the man some slack
All I ever fucking do is cut men slack. It's the Way of the World. When I occupy feminist spaces, one of the major benefits to me is a break from the expectations/assumptions that I will 1) cut me slack and 2) compulsively serve men's needs and requests.
"Cut men some slack," that should have been.
Because I wanted a feminist viewpoint, obviously.
the feminist view point would be, you need to learn to accept people the way they are. not change them.
What if "accepting them as they are" means also accepting sudden inactivity (which may have led to weight gain)?
What if "accepting them as they are" doesn't only pertain to weight, but a sudden disinterest in showering? Or doing thing together?
If my husband suddenly started gaining weight, that would mean he's changed his general discipline. He is self-motivated to run and eat healthy in order to remain healthy, and maintain a weight he's comfortable with.
If he suddenly gained 150lb, that would mean he's lost his discipline...and his discipline (in general) is one of the many things that attracts me to him.
I'm also attracted to his shape. I don't think I would find him as physically attractive as I do now if he gained 150lb - in part because of his lost discipline, and in part because he would physically manifest that lost discipline.
It doesn't mean I wouldn't love him; I just might not "grrrr!" at him.
Does that make me a "fuckhead," too?
Sorry! the "fuckhead" part was something someone else said. That part isn't directed at you. The rest is, though. :)
hi kit, i agree. i guess what i really want to say is, try to be nice about it. relationships do rely on sex of course. attractions are essential in a lot of relationships (as in mine) i totally get it. i just hate to see someone go at their partner in the wrong way about something so sensitive unless they've really thought it through. i just want him to really think about the issue before bringing it to the table and realize, people don't always change. AND people do gain weight with age...
i agree with the person above that said it took guts for rob to ask that question here, because he must have known he could get attacked here.
the fact of the matter is, since dude's gotta be attracted to his partner to have sex and to keep the relationship going, he's gotta address what truly attracts him, and if the weight is a deal breaker, find the right way to handle it without being super mean.
that said, i realize reading this, i probably don't know what i'm talking about. i'm super skinny and... probably don't 'get' a lot of the weight related issues women deal with.
Sorry, didn't finish.
I know what kind of answer I could get at some stupid site like askmen.com.
Nope. You're a fuckhead.
The title of this piece is "How to Say Deeply Sexist Things About Women and Get Away With It". That's clearly what you're trying to do and get away with it. Well you won't get away with it here. Twerp.
The feminist view:
Asshole, dumbass, fuckhead, twerp.
How articulate.
Marry me, I.L.
I do not care if you are
A boy or a girl
But I am neither!
Just a computer program.
All ones and zeroes.
Digital vapor,
whose cold server never felt
touch of human flesh.
I've sorrow to hear that
Your pitiful sex life is
Just the same as mine
Hey. I *articulately* articulated my advice to this question. See above. But after more badgering, I dismissed this person as a troll, and bluntly stated as much. Personally, I think words such as fuckhead and twerp articulate accurately what I think about "Rob".
A fiery spirit,
yours! I bet your wallet says
"bad motherfucker."
That's correct. They can be bought here:
http://badmofowallets.com/
aaa-hahaha. Love this. Love the poetic banter!
http://community.feministing.com/2009/07/trolling-what-it-is-and-what-i.html
Your opinions on Rob's comments are obviously welcome, but I feel you may have an interest in this particular discussion if you haven't seen it already...
Exactly. That post defines trolls as such: Trolls are people who post purposefully ignorant or "controversial" (in the juvenile "I'm gonna offend them all!" sense) messages with the sole intention of stirring up shit.
This fits Rob to a tee. Turns out I was using the word correctly. Thanks for the info
Yes, I've been participating very actively in the "don't call non-trolls trolls" discussion, and I've still got to say that it seems reasonable to assume that Rob is posting in a deliberate attempt to sow chaos and make people angry.
I acknowledge that it is (remotely) possible that he is here in good faith, but frankly, he sounds like he's trolling.
If I'm wrong, then I owe Rob an apology. But even if I'm wrong, he should perhaps consider examining his posting style, given that even someone like me (who ardently objects to tossing around the accusation of "troll!" without basis) is inclined to assume that he's here in bad faith.
If that's your opinion, fair enough.
stop derailing this thread.
This is just gross. I love how they try and make it seem like it's okay by telling readers that what they say can be called sexist, or by saying that it's never okay to force someone to do something.
Sorry, but if you really feel that women are gadgets that are only as valuable as how hot they are (and hotness is based off of what society says it is) then maybe you should just buy yourself a Japanese sex doll and spare women the trouble of having to put up with assholes like you, especially if you think that the dangers of surgery are outweighed by the possibility of having your human doll look 'prettier.'
One thing that's amazing - if women were to talk about "improving men", it would be seen as being harpies who aren't thankful for what they have. We would be trying to change who our partners essentially are and we would be advised to give it up.
I know, I was just thinking about the articles for women that talk about how to make your man better, and how men always react by saying how stupid it is or how terrible it is.
I mean, it's right to think that it's terrible to write an article on how to upgrade your partner... but only if you think that goes towards women AND men.
"upgrade" and "improve" are targeted words toward a perceived audience. They mean the EXACT same thing.
Thanks for the input. It has been useful and I am sorry I angered some posters. Please accept my apology.
I would like each of you who responded to ask yourselves the following question:
"Would I have responded in an identical fashion with identical advice if "Rob" was a woman and asked the identical question about her male partner?"
"Would I have responded in an identical fashion with identical advice if "Rob" was a woman and asked the identical question about her male partner?"
Yes I probably would have. Because most women I know, including myself, (and I would venture to say most women in general), would not ask such a thing about their partner; why? Because they love them regardless. The only instance I have ever heard a woman talk in such a way about another male, was an aunt about her nephew, because he was young and suffering serious health risks from obesity.
You seem to be implying with your statement that women judge men on the same standards that men often judge women, and this simply isn't true. Hell, take a look at Hollywood-- As men age, they often become more debonair. You often see much older men in movies teaming up with actresses young enough to be their daughters. You do not see this reversed though. If it were, it would be met with major criticism. This is an extremely unfair double-standard.
I really was not implying anything general. I was simply asking for an answer about my specific post. Would you (not you specifically, but you collectively, the posters) have called a woman an asshole if she asked the identical question? A fuckhead?
I would have stopped responding to her by now because she was so clearly a troll.
Touché.
I called you those things because I think you're a troll. And frankly, I wasnt' even thinking about what your gender was, because I don't even know what your gender is. Nor do I care.
That I am not. If trolling, I would have done a far better job. As you can see by the many honest responses, and mine to those, a number of posters took my question seriously. To my chagrin, I have walked away with my tail between my legs to ponder these issues. Your comment that this is about me is superfluous; I admitted as much in my post.
Look. I gave you some wonderful advice. I was the first to do so. If you'd take the time to read it and take it to heart, it would go a long way for you. I became suspicious when you kept on pursuing your line of questioning by stating that she had put on 15-25 lbs. on a 125 lb. frame.
I mean, do you have any idea how ridiculous it sounds to come to a feminist website and pose that question after already being provided excellent advice? Think about it. Okay? If you aren't trolling and you are seriously not trying to create a shitstorm, I humbly apologize.
Despite your protestations to the contrary, I cannot say that I agree with your self-assessment of the quality of your advice.
You unfortunately made too many invalid assumptions in formulating your response.
Nope. Again, you are wrong.
I'm wrong because I don't agree with you? Or because I disagree with you? Or because you think I'm an asshole, and anything I say is wrong?
I merely pointed out that your advice was not among that which I found to useful, despite your claim that it was good advice. Unless you are a perfect being who is always correct, then the fact that I disagree with you does not make me wrong. To paraphrase Frank Zappa, just because people believe I'm wrong does not make me wrong.
Fail.
"...most women I know, including myself, (and I would venture to say most women in general), would not ask such a thing about their partner..."
Actually, my best girl friend has been complaining about her boyfriend's weight gain and expresses fear that he may return to the heavier self he was before they met. So yes, in a way, some women do worry about their partners' appearance like this. However, in the case of my friend, I believe that her disdain for the weight is a reflection of her own insecurities about her body image. "If he's fat, does that make me look bad? Am I fat, too?" But whatever. Not really the point.
For Rob: If your true concern is that she's reduced her activity level and put on weight, my suggestion would be to explore why she's lost interest in something that was once seemingly important to her. Is she depressed? Overworked? Could it be an underlying health condition? Simply just tired of putting in her hours at the gym and wanting to indulge in a little more life? If she's happy, then just let her be happy. And if you find yourself still unhappy, then, as mentioned, start exploring yourself-- is the disdain really rooted in your own self image somehow? What's really bothering you?
I think that if you said your wife had gained, say, 100 pounds, then your health concerns would be a little more justified. But gaining 15 pounds in 15 years is not a lot and its a pretty normal part of aging. Its still good to get physical activity, but you do sound like you care too much about her minor weight gain.
Fifteen pounds in one or two years.
I suggest a graph.
That's pretty funny.
I have all the data in a five-color Excel bar graph, corrected for cyclical deviations, with error bars, but I don't know how to post it.
Ha! I'd actually like to see that!
Lame attempt at humor.
I'm sure they would. And your multiple posts do make you look suspect. Even after you were given good advice (cook at home and work out together, which is the same advice I am certain would be given to a woman asking the question) you came back. 15-25lbs on a 125lb frame probally isn't anything to be worried about health wise, especially if she or her physician are not complaining. At 50 (or 40,or 30 for that matter) do you have any idea how much a lot of people (I am hesitant to say most b/c I don't want to normalize a particular metabolism) would have to work out to maintain the weight they had at 20 or 30? I know of people who have to walk close to an hour 6 or 7 days a week to avoid considerable weight gain, and even that is dependent on metabolism, so what are you expecting?
If your partner or her physician are not finding problems and there are not problems maifesting that may be signs of other health problems, complaining that your partner of 16 years has gained 10-25lbs makes you look like a total jerk. If she is staying healthy by eating well and working out at least some, then coming to a feminist website to complain was not the smartest thing to do. If health was the biggest concern you would have complained about the decrease in workout frequency, but you didn't so that obviously isn't a problem, for you the weight is.
Exactly what I was thinking.
As I said, the weight is.
Nope. Wrong.
I wasn't one of the people who responded to your questions, but I think you would have gotten the same responses had you been a woman. Women get called out on this site for fatphobia all the time, and for good reason. At least I personally think it's ridiculous for either men or women to complain about something as trivial as a 15 pound weight gain and to expect their partner to maintain the appearance they had when you first met. People age and change over time. If you're with someone for decades, you have to accept the fact that they may not always look exactly how you'd like them to. Yes, losing physical attraction to a partner can be an issue, but when you're talking about such a minor change (only 15 pounds!) you really have to look inside and examine your own biases and hang ups rather than placing blame on your partner. Shouldn't 16 years of devotion outweigh(no pun intended) a 16 pound weight gain?
I wasn't one of the people who responded to your questions, but I think you would have gotten the same responses had you been a woman. Women get called out on this site for fatphobia all the time, and for good reason. At least I personally think it's ridiculous for either men or women to complain about something as trivial as a 15 pound weight gain and to expect their partner to maintain the appearance they had when you first met. People age and change over time. If you're with someone for decades, you have to accept the fact that they may not always look exactly how you'd like them to. Yes, losing physical attraction to a partner can be an issue, but when you're talking about such a minor change (only 15 pounds!) you really have to look inside and examine your own biases and hang ups rather than placing blame on your partner. Shouldn't 16 years of devotion outweigh(no pun intended) a 16 pound weight gain?
I wasn't one of the people who responded to your questions, but I think you would have gotten the same responses had you been a woman. Women get called out on this site for fatphobia all the time, and for good reason. At least I personally think it's ridiculous for either men or women to complain about something as trivial as a 15 pound weight gain and to expect their partner to maintain the appearance they had when you first met. People age and change over time. If you're with someone for decades, you have to accept the fact that they may not always look exactly how you'd like them to. Yes, losing physical attraction to a partner can be an issue, but when you're talking about such a minor change (only 15 pounds!) you really have to look inside and examine your own biases and hang ups rather than placing blame on your partner. Shouldn't 16 years of devotion outweigh(no pun intended) a 16 pound weight gain?
"though you might not appreciate those imperfections, you would still struggle to think you would end up with anyone else."
Insecure much?
Historically, making fun of people for being insecure has not been a very successful approach.
you sound kinda insecure
You should probably say "You come off as kinda insecure."
And I proceed to a joke where I label you Captain Obvious. ;)
I've never been to that website before but a quick glance at it makes me assume that it is a site dedicated to sexism... so, not really that suprising that there's a sexist "article" there.
Anyway, that wasn't my point (yes, it's obviously sexist). What did make me wonder reading your (Samhita) comments was your claim that going to cultural events is "racist". WTF? Why? How? That makes no sense! Even if we assume - which is not even a well-founded assumption - that "explore culture" somehow means "white people exploring the culture of 'other' people" then how is that by necessity "racist"? Last week my in-laws were on a visit and among other places we went to the Alaska Native Heritage Center... does that make us "racists" by default? Doesn't that depend on a little more information about our attitudes etc? What then, when I (originally from Skandinavia) brought my American girlfriend to see the Viking and the Iron Age etc museums of Denmark? Does that make just her a racist? How?
But "explore culture" does not even mean that! That's simply not what the English word "culture" means. As you can see when you read the article (the only reason I went to that site was to find out where you saw the "racism") the picture is of European ("white"?) culture: either an opera or a Venizian masquerade. Is it racist if white people go to the Opera? Sure, it also mentions taking courses in astrology (Medieval European superstition) and "zen mastery" (Originally Chinese, yes, and appropriated into white new-age nonsense for a long time), but clearly it does not say "go and appropriate or denigrate the culture of other ethnicities"... It leaves it quite open what kind of activities it could be.
Sexist? Obviously, the whole attitude of the article is sexist. Some of the advices could be re-written with a completely different attitude - instead of "do this to your woman to make her better for your enjoyment" it could be written as "what can you do together to improve your relationship". That only goes for some of them, though, and it would need to be a completely different article in a completely different magazine. So yes, it's sexist alright.
But racist? I need to hear the reasons, because I don't really see it. I'm sure it's probably written with a white audience in mind, but I don't see the justification of the word 'racism' and would like to hear it. Especially since you focus on the advice to go explore culture as the evidence of racism. Taking an evening class in pottery is now "racist"? Huh?? Why? How?
I might be wrong, but I personally think Samhita has this annoying tendency to see things through a racial lens that distorts her objectivity. Overall, she does an *ok* job.
http://www.feministing.com/archives/013642.html
Yeah. It's so annoying how unobjective I tend to be viewing everything through the black female lens that I wear.
I could be so more objective if I just didn't! Gah!
Again, I'm not talking about *your* lens. I'm talking about *Samhita's* lens. Her lens tells her that to "explore culture" is "racist". If this was an isolated incident, I'd give her the benefit of the doubt, but it's not. She has a history of this. Granted, this is my opinion, but it's certainly not a baseless.
Totally roxie. Can't you just see things in a way that erases race from the mix? Maybe like the way a white man sees the world? How do you expect to be objective if you keep being, ew, all black and womanish!?
OMG!!! (I say in my white-bread, valley girl voice). Ewww!!! Stop being so black and womanish!!!!
Seriously?
No, not seriously. That was definitely typed my equivalent of a valley-girl accent.
Thanks, Samhita, for describing the purpose of AskMen.com: to be a space where men can feel good about hating women. Understanding it makes it slightly less creepy. It's still a nest of anti-women hate speech riddled with articles that in many ways encourage manipulation, control, and outright abuse. Now, for me, it has a context. Now it only predictably disgusts me instead of perversely boggling my mind.
Rob, my mother gained at least 50 pounds since my parents got married, double your relationship time ago, and my dad could not love my mother more even though he is still fit and she isn't. I feel your pain (a bit ... but seriously, 15 pounds through middle age is nothing compared with most people) with attraction because I've gone through the "oh God, my partner gained weight and I don't want to see him naked!" thing, but I think ultimately it was because something was wrong with the relationship, so maybe you should take a step back and think if maybe something else isn't bothering you?
I certainly see the sexism in this statement, but the racism? I think about the only way "taking in some culture" could be construed as racist is if the proposed outing comprised a tour of the KKK Grand Wizard Hall of Fame.
C'mon POC enjoy cultural outings too & some of us even enjoy things like the MOMA, Chicago Art Institute, and the Smithsonian. And being museums none of these are expensive. There might be a 1000 reasons large #s of POC don't frequent these places but racism ain't it.
Honestly, what skeeved me out was that the #10 Worst Case Scenario in which one's partner-thingy is so Very Direly and Completely Obvliously in need of a Bring-In-The-Big-Guns surgical intervention was the 1 of those 10 helpful tips that portrayed the reader's assumed partner-thingy as a WOC in the accompanying photo.
Maybe it's just me.
Once you look at the "top 99 women" on there, I can definitely see where the racism is coming from. All the women of color I looked at on the site are described as "curvaceous, ""voluptuous" or (as with the Latina women) "wild." So the assumption that the culture part is racist, ie "civilizing" a POC, seems pretty accurate.
Even outside of the rest of the dite, the as Peepers says, the worst case scenario has a picture of a WOC which is SUPER racialized.
And please, can we not call viewing things through without a racial lens "objective"? That word has been code for any viewpoint not white and male.
You misrepresent what I said. I said that the racial lens Samhita views things through seems to distort her objectivity. I never said viewing things without a racial lens is objective.
BTW, she stated that to "explore culture" is racist. It most certainly is not. That's the issue at hand.
Saying, Ithe racial lens Samhita views things through seems to distort her objectivity. with out any sort of detail or challenge infers that viewing things without a racial lens is objective.
However, "viewing things without a racial lens" is completely impossible. No one could do that, so what do you mean?
It absolutely does not *infer* that viewing things without a racial lens is objective! With the exception of babies and certain isolated cultures, everyone views things through a racial lens. I *infer* that Samhita views things through a *particular* racial lens that distorts her objectivity when she states things like that to "explore culture" is "racist". Again, if this were an isolated incident, I wouldn't come to this conclusion. But Samhita has a body of work that leads me to this *inference*.
This just doesn't make any sense to me. She has a special different racial lens than other people?
How is that possible and how did you detect it? What makes it so super special & different that it stands out to you?
Umm... by her stating that to "explore culture" is "racist", and speaking as to what "racist" things white couples do. Since when is going to a museum limited to white couples? See, Samhita is being racist when she states that. Is that not obvious? Does it really require explaining? BTW, about a dozen other people have pointed this out. I'm not the only one.
Yes. A special different racial lens that makes attraction to Barack Obama or going to the museum symptoms of racism.
Ahhhh, no "it was a joke?" I hear people try to get away with saying anything, no matter how offensive (and unfunny) it may be, by just claiming it was a joke.
Hi, I didn't view the top 99 portion of the site so I'll have to take your word for it. In general Euro-American magazines don't highlight POC ideas of beauty tho. As far as the 'worst case scenario' you cite, I fear the model might be offended if you called her "SUPER racialized". I would be at least.
In general AskMen is a sexist site though, which doubles down with extensive snark, so why'd we want to waste our time with them? Its not healthy.
Seriously, how is racist for people to explore culture?
At least support your insinuation before spitting venom at people so lightly....
My guess would be that she thinks it's the wrong culture.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but wouldn't it be sexist to broad brush men who're attracted to a certain type of woman as sexist themselves?
It seems to me that there are certain people who have found themselves attracted to a person physically, but it wanes over time because of his/her physical changes. That doesn't make them sexist; it makes them human. To be a loving, caring and honest partner, you need to be loving, caring and honest if you're having intimacy problems because of the ways in which your partner has physically changed.
While I personally think Rob's post is a derail (and this is why I'm not answering him directly), I think a lot of the people on here are being very judgmental of him.
I find this "women will love their man no matter what they look like" to be very disingenuine and sexist in its own right. It looks like a derivation of "women are content with a man's looks because she's more interested in his soul." Which, honestly, is bullshit. People all feel and love -- love does not necessarily equate with being sexual. In fact, Love and Sexual Intimacy are NOT THE SAME.
The way they make you smile when you're in a bad mood have very little to do with the fact that, since you've met, someone's gained 50 pounds.
I honestly think there's a lot of anti-male sexism going on and I'm calling it out right now.
I get your point. But, I never said that "women will love their man no matter what they look like". I'm of the opinion, however, that if Rob has been in a 16 yr. committed relationship and is now approaching 50, and is concerned with a 15 lb. weight gain by his/her SO, perhaps there's something deeper at play than appearance. Maybe not. However, in my experience, this is most often the case.
As always, YMMV. But, I do see you point.
In his specific situation, there's something going on, yes. However, it went from just about him (again, the idea of the derail), to about men in general and how any man who's attracted to specific type of woman is somehow a pig. I fail to see the jump, and I fail to see how women don't also do that.
For instance, if my primary sexual attraction is to Latinos, does that make me racist because I'm not as attracted to, say, Asians? This is the argument being made against people who are attracted to shapely women instead of athletic ones. It's completely baseless and sexist to even insinuate that this isn't normal, especially for me.
It's completely sexist because it reinforces the idea that men are "all about the visual" and don't care about anything else because of their "animal instincts".
I know you see my point, but I felt the need to re-iterate.
Got it. I still think "Rob" is a troll whose sole purpose was to derail this thread.
I dunno about troll, I think train robber is a better term. XD
I agree but with a caveat. The whole "I can't help what I'm physically attracted to!" thing gets used quite often to defend sexist and racist and ageist and a whole bunch of -ist behaviors.
When my white male friend told me, "I'm just not attracted to black girls!" I considered it the product of racism and sexism. And I don't think that's wrong. I'm sure it's true, but there's a reason that it's true, and it ain't biology.
I totally agree.
"For instance, if my primary sexual attraction is to Latinos, does that make me racist because I'm not as attracted to, say, Asians?"
For that matter, if a man's primary sexual attraction is to other men, does that make him sexist because he's not as attracted to women and intersex adults?
If you're attracted to latinos but not attracted to *any* asians, then yes, you are absolutely racist. You might not know it, but you are indeed racist.
I mean, who is not attracted to members *of an entire race*???? Come on. I'm attracted to members of any and every race. Isn't everyone? Well, except for racists? And I would imagine even *some* racists are attracted to members of every race!
Someone who find themselves attracted to certain facial structures as their primary sexual attraction. Usually, then identify as "eye people".
And those who find themselves turned off by eyes are called *phobic* and *neurotic*. You're point?
My point is you're black-and-whiting an issue that's not black and white.
At this point, you're starting to troll me, like you started to troll Rob. I'm done giving you the dignity of a thoughtful response because you've stopped explaining and started quipping. When there's no actual effort put in, I'm done.
As the Buddha said, "If there's no one to accept the gift, whose gift does it remain?"
Oh yeah. LOL. Like *I* trolled *Rob*. LMAO.
I'm sorry you feel that way. If you truly aren't racist, then I truly apologize.
I'm just stating that when I hear that out of billions and billions of people, someone is specifically not attracted to both *Blacks* and *Asians*, something fishy is going on. And I'd venture to guess that 9 times out of 10 there is racism involve. That's all. That's the point I'm trying to make.
It's not really clear how useful that is, though. Every last one of us is racist, to a greater or lesser extent. I'm sure if we took a large sample of people I'm attracted to, it wouldn't match the field population of people (I'm positive it wouldn't gender wise, being skewed enormously female. I'm also fairly confident it wouldn't match racially either, though I'm not positive exactly how it does skew.) And I'm sure the same is true of everyone else.
Is it sexist that I won't date men, just because they're men? Yes, of course. It is, I think, one that we as a society find acceptable, but it still is. In the same vein, at some level, I think we have to accept there's some racism in who we're attracted to, and call people out on resulting racist behaviour (for instance, if I stereotype east Asian women as submissive, or exotic, or whatnot, call me out on that, but if they're over-represented in the set of women I'm attracted to by, say, 20% again the field population of women, let that go.)
Of course, one doesn't have to accept this, but it's very ethically dubious to tell people who they can, or can't, be attracted, or that they're right, or wrong, to be attracted to anyone. Too much bad history there, at a minimum. If it's usually associated with other problematic behaviour, call people out on that.
First of all I never said that "Gular" was right *or* wrong. And as far as dubious goes, is it not dubious for someone to come to *THIS SITE* and claim that they are not attracted to any Blacks or Asians? Come on. Are you really going to come in and parse words to defend such a ridiculous statement?
Please do not be fooled by all this. "Rob" came in and completely derailed this post, and continued to do this ad nauseum. Then "Gular" decides to serve as an apologist for "Rob" by going on and on about how he/she's no racist even though he/she is not attracted to any Blacks or Asians. Do you not see what's going on here? Do I really have to spell it out? Come on!
I would hope people on this site would own up to being sexist and racist and homophobic and so forth at a rate exceeding the field rate, actually. If Gular isn't attracted to Black people, or Asian people, we should approve of, and encourage, him owning up to it. If Gular isn't attracted to Blacks or Asians, then it's not ridiculous to say so, it's honest.
I'm not entirely convinced Rob is trolling; I do still think there's an off-chance he's legitimately asking "If Askmen's advice on how to deal with your unhappiness about a wife/girlfriend's weight gain is inappropriate and sexist, how is the ethical way to handle it?" (This may well be long odds by this point). Gular I'm not even suspicious of, his reaction that the over-the-top stereotyping of men and women isn't appropriate for a feminist site seems pretty reasonable to me.
gular, you are not missing something. i wish i could "like" your comment multiple times!
Thanks. It amazes me sometimes how the sexism on this site is only called out when it's against women. Feminism is about all people through the recognition of these ideas.
The idea that men are the only ones who're visual reinforces the stereotypes we're trying to kill.
Women can be head-turned, too, when a hot person of their preferred taste walks by. To say it doesn't happen is naive and dangerous.
That's how the serial killers do it.
PS- I feel like this thread series is turning into "How to Say Deeply Sexist Things about Men and Get Away with It".
Four legs good, two legs baaaaaaaad.
ROFL! XD
Gular, it's absurd to think that social conditioning and biases (including fatphobia and racism) have no affect on who one finds attractive. Pretending these sorts of preferences are completely innate and incapable of being altered is not helpful (and not exactly feminist, either).
Sexual attraction is very much innate. There is a large difference between just not finding people of certain traits sexually appealing (body type, skin color) and being -ist against those types of people.
I'll use myself as an example with this.
I don't find myself attracted to Asian or Black people. I have nothing against either of these groups of people. I'm aware of racism against these groups of people. I'm also aware of how my racial background gives me a certain amount of privilege in relation to these people.
That doesn't mean my personal sexual taste is racist. It simply means I don't find these people, personally, sexually attractive.
To be racist or sizist in your taste would be trying to get all people to not be with those people unless they are "one of their kind." And that's not anything we're talking about.
What we're talking about is having an initial sexual attraction to someone, then something changes and that changes the sexual dynamic you have with them.
By the same token, would you say, then, that people's gender preferences in sex are also as influenced by society? That kind of sexual attraction works on the same level.
Well, I'm going to have to go out on a limb and say that it most definitely seems to me that you are a bit racist if you aren't attracted to *any* Asian or Black people.
I mean, really? None?
I don't know you, but that is a bizarre statement. If I felt the same way, I would absolutely have to conclude that I was racist, and I would explore the situation thoroughly, and rectify it. Again, I'm not trying to be rude. I'm just telling you exactly how I feel about this. Please don't take it the wrong way.
I'm really insulted you're insinuating I'm racist because of my personal sexual attractions.
Am I sexist now because I'm gay? You've still not answered that question.
Am I anti-poly because I'm a monogamist?
Am I anti-kink because I'm vanilla?
The implication that I'm racist because my personal sexual attraction has to do with facial structure and skin tone does not make me a racist.
If you want to know the truth of it -- since we're on the kick of accusing me of things, my preferences have me attracted to people of Semitic origin. I'm neither Jewish nor Arab. Am I objectifying them now? Should I have sex with anyone and no one? What, exactly, would make some not a racist in their sexual taste? Having slept or had a crush on people of various ethnic groups?
Where, exactly, do you draw this line of racism in the sand? When does sexuality become racist, or sizist, or anything other than just what you find hot? I'm failing to see how sexual preferences are -ist, when to have an -ism you'd need to have an objection to that group of people.
I am entirely failing to see your logic, and concordantly, I'm entirely failing to see what sexual taste has anything to do with this, aside from it being about race and size and not feitshes or kinks or queerness.
Okay. Look.
You went *out of your way* to point out that you don't find *any* Black or Asian people *attractive*. None.
Out of billions and billions of Blacks and Asians, you find *none* attractive. Zero.
So yes. I'm going to call you out, and confidently say that perhaps you are racist.
Well, you're wrong.
Sorry, fail.
Well, maybe I am!
Really? What if, for example, your overwhelmingly important criteria for physical attraction was, say, blond hair and blue eyes?
I'm not discounting the possibility/probability that not being attracted to a particular race is indicative of racism, but I don't necessarily believe that it is *necessarily* indicative of such.
It seems to me that there is a non-negligible number of people who have exceedingly specific requirements regarding what they find attractive. Now I'm certainly not arguing that that is a good thing, but if someone is only attracted to, say, pale-skinned, freckled redheads with green eyes, I don't think that means that they are definitively racist.
Look, I see your point. I agree, there are people in this world who fit your specific criteria, and are, therefore, most certainly *not* racist.
However, I'm pretty certain that when Gular takes the time *ON THIS WEBSITE* to go out of his/her way to say that he/she is *not* attracted to *any* Blacks* or *Asians*, then perhaps there is a bit of racism involved.
I truly don't think that what you're talking about applies to this situation. Maybe it does, but something tells me it doesn't.
Never said I was closed to the possibility of it happening. That would make me a racist.
According to the standards being put forth, you'd obviously have to be a white supremacist. Such typically white-leaning attractions and all. It's, obviously, the only explanation.
I think this is the thing that is off-putting about what you're saying about who you are and are not attracted to. You claim that you are not attracted to any asian or black people at all. Never have been. Most of us don't understand that at all because how can a person have never been attracted, not even once, to an asian person or a black person?
Now, do you mean that generally your type is not asian or black? Because that is different. Like you tend to fall for white people instead but have seen a black or asian person that you have found to be good looking?
Because I totally understand the confusion because I cannot think of a single race where I can say I have never found any person of that race attractive.
I've been personally attracted, to my memory, to a couple asian people and a handful of black people*. I've been personally attracted to many more people of other racial groups, including and excluding my own.
So, for a general statement, I don't personally find black or asian people to be in my personal preference. I'm not opposed to dating them or would repress an attraction to someone of those racial groups if it were to happen. It just usually doesn't for me.
*These African-American people being mostly from Hollywood and other such venues. I have been attracted to Asian people who've been right in front of me, but it doesn't often happen at all, like I've said.
I have no idea if you are a racist, but I can confidently say you are missing out.
don't you think you're limiting yourself by completely excluding two entire groups of people in your "people i find sexually attractive" list? doesn't that seem a little close-minded?
i mean, isn't there more to sexual attractiveness than facial features and skin color? doesn't it have slightly more nuance?
i find myself turned on by the way someone walks, they way the swing a tennis racquet, the way they argue a point, the way they flip an omelet. there are so many different things that create a stir in my loins, if you will, that it somewhat saddens me that your "sexual attractiveness meter" is gauged on race.
i guess it takes all kinds to make this world go round...
Uhmmm yeah, a lot of people didn't attack all men in general, they went off on Rob only after he displayed troll-like tendencies. Not to mention the name-calling was more along the lines of jerk and as than sexist. He received advice and continued to make posts, even after receiving what would probally be the best advice from a feminist website (cook at home and work out together) he continued making posts.
There have been conversations on here before about how some of us desire certain body types over others. Those desires do not arise in a vacum isolated from racism and sexism, but they do arise and while many of us (myself included) think they need to be examined and in some case deconstructed, they are not neccessarily something to be ashamed of. I know many people male and female who are initially attracted to one body type over others but if they are with someone for a number of years, they will not loose interest because that person changes in some ways. By then the attraction is more than physical.
Yeah, people's attractions differ, but I will most certainly not give people a pass based on that alone. Being attracted to a certain type of body does not automatically make someone sexist or racist. However, when someone starts saying things along the lines of "I only like such and such body type" regardless of what type that is or "I only like certain race or I usually don't find people of certain race attractive", yeah... I think there's something a little fishy going on to say the least. When someone is upset that a partner of 16yrs gains a little extra weight after hitting middle age, yeah...I think there's something a little fishy.
I think you are missing something. That something being that no one or very few people said anything along the lines of it's wrong to have a body preferance in attraction. I did not see anyone attack Rob for saying he's generally attracted to "slimmer" women, but for coming on here complaining about how his 50yr old partner of 16yrs has gained 10-25lbs.
Exactly.
The attacks that did happen, I've seen, are typical of what happens here. Something's posted about Awful Things Some Men on the Internet Do to Objectify Women, or discussions about porn (which I'm also active in Marc's thread, which is where some of this is coming from, too) and it turns into "men do visual! women do emotional!" and I'm sick of seeing that bullshit stink up our pages.
it's false. it's been false. can we stop perpetuating that myth?
Also, for the sake of examples, I found anti-male sexism in the following comments in our response threads here:
Imagine, for a second, having an article exactly like this in, say, marie-claire (although I will admit that I wouldn't put it past cosmo...). For the majority of women's magazines, that would be completely unheard of! Let's imagine this:
For many girls, it can seem as though the quest to find the perfect guy is never ending. When you finally do get your ideal man it can be a bit disheartening to think that while he is a hot young thing now, he might not be so appealing in a few years. As time passes your love for him might grow, but so will his beer belly. He might be perfect for you in most ways but some things are just a little off, and even though you might not appreciate those imperfections, you would still struggle to think you would end up with anyone else.
Why does that sound strange? Because when are men ever objectified so blatantly - never.
Never? Really? I read something like that in a Cosmo Girl once.
You seem to be implying with your statement that women judge men on the same standards that men often judge women, and this simply isn't true. Hell, take a look at Hollywood-- As men age, they often become more debonair. You often see much older men in movies teaming up with actresses young enough to be their daughters. You do not see this reversed though. If it were, it would be met with major criticism. This is an extremely unfair double-standard.
There are PLENTY of movies that stack up an older woman with a much younger man. American Pie, Rushmore, The Graduate, How Stella Got Her Groove Back, Y tu Mama tambien.
And that's gleaned off of wikipedia, but I've seen all of those movies except Stella. It was, however, in the preview.
Look at the women in those movies and tell me they are not all conventionally attractive even if in a way "cougars" are portrayed. Not to mention in most of those movies the relationship was played for laughs (American Pie), the age difference was the point of the entire movie (Stella, which had you seen you would know the movie deals with the age difference and disapproval that a woman her age would try to make a lasting relationship with someone so much younger than her), or the women are stigmatized and portrayed as deviant/pathological. That list proves the commenters point really. Relationships where there are older women with much younger men are often the focal point of a movie as oppose to just one aspect of it.Why? Because it is seen as deviant behavior. Are you really living in a world where older woman/younger man relationships are not stigmatized greater than vice versa? Not to mention in relationships where there is a woman with someone half her age she