Quick Hit: Quite Literally - Spanking and Feminist Identity
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Thank the gods for this post! I really needed to read it. I am going through a similar internal conflict and I really appreciated knowing that others are as well. Forwarded the story to my bf, and maybe someone out there can point me to more resources/blogs/etc?
In my (limited) experience the majority of women, the majority of the time, are fairly sexually submissive.
As far as I'm concerned, this has no bearing on how I view them in my relationships, it's just how they like their sex. My ex-gf was a feminist who liked to be tied up, have her hair pulled and her ass spanked. She also like to go on top and pin me down, but less often. In my opinion, a dominatrix woman is no less feminist than a full-on sub. The important thing is to talk about it with your partner and be comfortable with yourself.
To this extent, the personal really is not political.
And I really wont believe most women are sexually submissive unless a nice study comes out to illustrate this point. In my experience women tend to be more dominant in bed-- so anecdotes are pretty dangerous to try to draw big conclusions from.
Agreed
In my (limited) experience the majority of women
Dude, what? If your experience is limited, you can't speak for the majority of women.
That's limited all right. I suspect the majority of women don't have a formal D/s dynamic in their sex lives; my experience is probably even more limited than yours, and doesn't reflect that, but it's still how I'd bet. Be that as it may, "anecdote" is not the singular etc.
Even men enjoy to be submissive in bed.
Our sexual desires are judged too harshly, even by our own minds. I am a powerful woman, I love being submissive in bed sometimes, I love being spanked sometimes. My boyfriend is a very powerful man, he loves it when I take control of his body.
It just is what it is. I respect men and women for accepting and engaging in otherwise socially unaccepted or "gender-bending" roles - to me, it is a sign of their utter security.
I think this is a really fantastic point. I would say that my boyfriend and I tend to alternate which one is the more submissive of the two of us, and it's not really a conscious thing. We enjoy playing both roles.
As long as everybody is comfortable with what is taking place in the bedroom, I don't see it being contradictory to a feminist viewpoint.
Why should there even be a conflict? As long as you're not forced or coerced into the role of submissive during sex, and you're getting your needs met, it seems like it's all good.
I thought the whole idea of feminism is that women are people too. As agents in their own sexuality, women should be able to enjoy the things that please them without feeling like it boxes them into a particular identity.
Just because someone likes to role play a particular part during a consensual act doesn't mean that role needs extend to their life outside of the act. Even if you like playing a french maid in the bedroom that doesn't obligate you to do all of the cleaning and laundry.
-corn
Naomi Wolf talks about this a little bit in The Beauty Myth, and I have to admit, it got me wondering about my own desires in bed.
She basically says that most people enjoy this dangerous sex and that it is because it is the sexual imagery we are shown constantly- rough, violent sex where women are submissive. And that this creates this culture where both men like to dominate and women like to be submissive because they think that is what it sexy. And that this could create a blurry line, where violence towards women is becoming sexy, in a way.
I know that men like to be dominated, too, but I do wonder if it is mostly women that are the ones being dominated, and why it is so common of a desire.
It's nice to hear that Naomi Wolf knows exactly where my fantasies come from even though she has never met me. There couldn't possibly be any other reasons for it. I mean it's not like people are complex or unique.
Also I wouldn't label spankings as a violent act, it can be quite pleasurable for some people. There's a huge difference between real violence and consensual acts that two people find mutually pleasurable.
I maybe shoulda toned down the snarkiness a notch.
Just as long as the snarkiness wasn't intended for me. I was just putting that out there, not necessarily preaching it as my own personal view.
No, the snarkiness was spot on. "Dangerous sex"? Give me a break.
One thing I wonder about is her insistence that she doesn't hate herself.
I find that the reasons society has for me to hate myself are often very difficult for me to see. Maybe this is just an issue for me and not for Jessica, but I feel like undoing the self-hatred I've been fed is a lifelong process I'm just beginning to embark on.
Are there really people out there who don't hate themselves at all? When self hatred is so often hidden in cultural "values", how would you be able to tell?
Wow. I had a really complicated reaction to this.
Yes, basically, I agree that she shouldn't feel like a 'bad feminist' because she's submissive. She did a great job of arguing that.
Kudos on the honesty and self-confidence to write about this so openly.
But... and I hope this doesn't cause offense, and I may be missing something so please tell me - that incident at the beginning? When her guy friends tackle her and spank her despite her objections? When she's really upset afterward? When it doesn't seem, at least from what she wrote, that there was any discussion or negotiation of the scene before hand? If it happened the way she presents it, that's horrible. That's abuse. And if it happened to me, I would be really traumatized. And I'm POSITIVE that if it had happened to someone else
That wasn't a d/s scene, that was a birthday party. It wasn't intended to be sexual, but it turned her on.
I agree, I found that story disturbing as well, especially since the writer didn't really raise the idea about the importance of consent. It's totally fine to enjoy getting spanked, but it's completely unacceptable for people to do that to someone without their consent, especially when they are actively protesting.
Birthday spankings used to be big in my family when I was a kid - one spank for every year. Even as a kid it confused me; this thing that's usually a punishment is now part of your celebration, yay! AS far as I know most of my friends' families did it, too. Is it a cultural thing? (I've always lived in the Southeast US.)
yeah i totally agree with erik and naomi1978...i was the one that left the last comment on her post. i think its great to have a feminist space where there's a bunch of diversity and people don't feel ashamed of their sexual practices, but we need to not loose sight of making it perfectly clear to young men and women what consent is. i mean with the other scenarios, she said she gave clear consent. i was troubled with the first scenario because i know that a lot of rape victims have huge struggles with the fact that they did feel some arousal while being attacked, and by not making it perfectly clear that yes sometimes your body has an arousal reaction to an unconsentual act it does NOT make the attack any less horrible. (or any more cansentual.) does that make sense?
Yeah, that's exactly what I meant... also wanted to stress again that I agree with her core argument- it's just that first bit.
"sometimes your body has an arousal reaction to an unconsentual act it does NOT make the attack any less horrible".
Very well put. This is a tricky idea to hang onto sometimes, and I remember being a little confused the first time somebody said it to me.
In sexual situations (particularly the kind we're talking about), consent is always key.
When I was in my 20s and 30s, I wasn't terribly interested in being either submissive or dominant. I remember one of my boyfriends really enjoying having me peg him, but I was vaguely put off by it. (Oddly enough, I've found out recently that he's seriously into BDSM as a top now.)
I'm now in my 40s, divorced, and with a new boyfriend, and right from the beginning, I've let him know that I like being spanked, held down, and tied up. I had absolutely no desire for this with my husband, but I really like it now. I don't think it's because of any self-loathing. As far as I can figure out, it's the physical challenge and the ability to endure that thrill me. I'm also getting a lot more athletic than I used to be, so maybe this is all about showing myself and anyone else how tough and resilient I can be.
My boyfriend does not have a dominant personality in most ways -- he's quite laid back in general, and really prefers that I make most of the decisions that affect us both -- but I do get a thrill when we're in bed and he suddenly decides we need to reposition, quickly and confidently turning me about this way and that. I guess it's the combination of physical strength, competence and trustworthiness that are at his core that makes it work for me. I don't like real pain and I don't like having my real life controlled, but I really crave that mixture of tenderness and roughness in sex right now.
I think that perhaps part of the reason why this can be such a difficult topic is because our words for the roles that people play in sexual relationships (consistently or not) reminds us of the terminology we use for discussing gender relations.
If we were to separate the two things linguistically, would it be easier to understand "dominance" and "submission"?
I honestly don't know the answer to that (or if this is derailing, I sincerely apologise if it is) - I imagine that it is far more complex and do not mean to imply that it would solve all of the problems that feminists have with being spanked, etc.
It's a lot easier for me because my partner is also a woman, and so there is no sense that I shouldn't let a man whip me because she's not one, so I'm rather lucky in that respect.
"It's a lot easier for me because my partner is also a woman, and so there is no sense that I shouldn't let a man whip me because she's not one, so I'm rather lucky in that respect."
I agree you're rather lucky in that respect and I think that says a lot about how much importance we place on gender. When I was in middle school and started exploring my submissive sexual fantasies I seriously hoped that I would never become attracted to men, because as a feminist I thought it would only be ok to be dominated by a woman. The whole not being attracted to men thing didn't quite work out (I'm bisexual)...people who claim sexual preferences are a choice are crazy.
My current partner is a man, but more importantly he's a sweet, loving, thoughtful, respectful person who dominates me in bed only because it's fun and pleasurable for both of us. It doesn't really make sense that I would get to freely explore my fantasies with a female partner and repress them with a male partner. People are so much more than their gender and we need to give them credit for that.
Omg I can relate. I spent some time wishing I wasn't attracted to men, wishing I was a lesbian, but I eventually had to admit to myself I was bi. I didn't get into BDSM until pretty recently, at least beyond the average spanking and blindfolding. There's another post entirely, about how sex toys and acts people see as minorly kinky are, in fact, on a BDSM continuum and also indicate a power dynamic. Granted, fuzzy handcuffs are not the same thing as partial suspension, but still. Anyway, even though I am bisexual, I only desire to engage in BDSM with men. I'm sure some judgmental shithead would find it ten kinds of fucked up that I only want men to dominate me, but I don't give a rat's ass.
On another note, I think one of the most insidious misconceptions people have about BDSM is that submissives ONLY get off on pain, and dominants ONLY get off on hurting other people. Which is absolutely ridiculous. I myself do not like intense pain, it's the restriction and helplessness I like most of all, with some pain and discomfort. And, for what it's worth, BDSM doesn't really even get me off. It's really hard for me to get off with a partner, so one reason I do BDSM is to have a chance to explore the wide range of sensations and mental states related to sexual arousal, without worrying about cumming; it's about the experience, the story, the power dynamic as much as it is about the physical sensations. The mental arousal, as I call it.
Where are the women tops? Where are the men bottoms?
Thank you for that. Out of all these posts on Feministing that have been blowing my mind (not in a good way), I have seen such little discussion of women who top, men who bottom, or switches. Most people I know who play are switches.
Yeah, I switch, too. My spouse and I both tend to be bottomish, and we expect each other to do our fair share of topping. I identify as a bottom, and I write more about bottoming because my spouse is not comfortable having the things she does as a bottom discussed, though she's fine with me discussing what we do when she tops. But I switch.
I also switch, though I started out as a sub. I think I came to terms with subbing and feminism by saying it didn't alter my ambitions or personal beliefs about women's equality, or low opinions of those who perpetrate actual violence against women.
Yeah I'm a switch too, but I've been talking more about being a sub just because that's what a lot of the discussion has been focused on.
I identify as a switch too. I usually write about bottoming because I bottom in my current relationship.