This weekly Saturday column "Ask Professor Foxy" will regularly contain sexually explicit material. This material is likely not safe for work viewing. The title of the column will include the major topic of the post, so please read the topic when deciding whether or not to read the entire column.
Hia Professor Foxy.
I've been enjoying your column, but must admit I feel sort of embarrassed writing in myself...
Anyway, I'm a trans woman in the process of transitioning, and having a lot of frustration in figuring out how to deal with my ever-changing sexuality. That is, over the past year or so, hormones have physically changed my body quite a bit, and that's my sexuality in ways you might expect (having boobs is fun!) and also in ways you might not (I'm finding the type of stimulation I'm looking for has changed, but I'm not quite sure what it's changed to!). I haven't had "the surgery" (so I'm not sporting the svelte feminine contours below the waist) which just seems to complicate things more: there aren't a ton of respectful resources on the sexuality of pre-op women, written with the goal of helping pre-op women to be sexual.
I expect a lot of the advice I'm looking for would apply to anyone dealing their sexuality for the first time (or the first time after major body changes): explore (alone or with a partner) what feels good, and go from there. That's all well and good but, as I said, there are lots of resources for doing that directed at cisgendered men and women, and fewer for trans men and women.
Am I needlessly over-thinking things, or is there any hope out there?
-Frustrated
Hi Frustrated
Congratulations on the new boobs! I want to echo your thoughts on new desires emerging during your transition. It wasn't until friends of mine started transitioning that I really understood the power of hormones. I think you are right that hormones that you take are impacting your sexuality. Our desires and sexual needs are complicated, complicated things and they are certainly impacted by what hormones to what levels. I also think that starting to have an outside appearance that mirrors your insides is likely also having an impact.
Part of this process is also going to have to be exploring your new body and your new desires and not judging yourself during this process. You can even think of it as a burden or as an extra gift during transition. Unlike cisgendered women, who typically have to get used to things on their body, you are going to be able to explore things on your body that you very much want: the breasts, the hips you will likely develop. Enjoy it!
I did a bunch of web and asking my people research and my experience in trying to find some good, respectful, positive resources was also not great. Everything I found tended to be about the transitioning or coming out process, but I have a few suggestions, which I hope help.
The first is www.strap-on.org, which bills itself as a "queer positive, trans positive, sex positive, girl positive community." It is a message board, not a resource site, but I found the conversations and mission to be smart and engaging. It is easy to start your own thread. My other suggestion is live journal, which can become an online community. You might start by checking out the communities of mtf_undressed and mtfinbed. I also like following Kate Bornstein, an amazing trans woman activist who is also sex positive, on twitter.
There will unfortunately, be transphobic asses everywhere, but these sites seemed to be overwhelmingly positive.
Enjoy your journey - you deserve it.
Professor Foxy
If you have a question for Professor Foxy, send it to ProfessorFoxyATfeministingDOTcom.
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You're right that there aren't many resources, but we're working on it! A few people have been talking about developing a video precisely for trans women who are rediscovering their bodies (post surgery, or post hormones, or both).
Calpernia Addams' boards are a good resource for trans women:
http://www.genderlife.com/forum/
I run message boards for trans people who are partnered, with a sexuality forum:
http://www.myhusbandbetty.com/community/index.php
Dr. Christine McGinn has done workshops for post-op trans women & orgasm:
http://www.drchristinemcginn.com/drmcginn/
Hopefully these will help further.
when prof F mentioned Kate Bornstein i remembered that her partner is a sex positivist activist! i'm suuure she has much experience with trans-women's sexuality...
if you scroll down to the bottom of this website there is some info on workshops you might be interested in:
"Queer Tantra: Transgressive, Transcendent, and Transgender, A Weekend Workshop" and " Adventures in Gender and Sex: Beyond Mars and Venus, co-facilitated with Kate Bornstein"
http://www.urbantantra.org/Sexuality%20and%20Spirituality%20Workshops.htm
yay! have fun exploring :)
One of the frustrations I have is that there's not enough smut for trans women. While I don't personally find pre-op trans women's bodies especially erotic (or especially non-erotic), I've always found porn extraordinarily frustrating. Even if you're lucky enough to find something done by smart women (let alone smart queer women), I never read about or see any bodies that are anything like mine. It's depressing, particularly when one is already dealing with body image problems. Enter this post by Tobi Hill Meyer, who apparently is doing something about the situation: http://www.bilerico.com/2009/04/porn_for_social_activism.php
Tobi's movie won at the Feminist Porn Awards!
I *so* cannot wait until it's released . . . I've been hungering for real representations of transwoman sexuality, and the little tidbits I've gotten from Crashpadseries.com, while great, were definitely not cutting it.
If only those transgender people hadn't boycotted feministing, there might be more comments on this.
I'm a cisgender woman, so I was hesitant to comment on this. But now, seeing the lack of comments, I just want to express my support and sympathy for "Frustrated." I can't imagine how you feel, but I do hope you work it out. It seems to me that this is the sort of thing that might just take some time and experimentation.
I'm sure you don't mean that first line of your comment the way it sounds, but EEEK. For starters "those people" never sounds good. Not to mention that it sounds like you're blaming transgendered people for a lack of supportive comments to this post, when really the fault lies with the entire feministing community. As a whole, we failed to make this feel like a safe and supportive place for transgendered people. They can't be blamed for not wanting to participate if the environment has been proven to be hostile.
You almost certainly meant that sentence to come across as "it's really too bad we don't have a stronger transgender presence here" or as "this was unfortunately timed; we used to have more transgendered people here who might have helped". Unfortunately, the comment didn't read that way to me at first, and may not read that way to other people.
Seconded. I responded the same way at first, and then realized that dormouse's heart was in the right place. I'm also concerned about the lack of response to this. It's not the job of trans women and men to do all the commenting on postings about trans issues. Those of us who are cis need to step up and make this a safe space for trans people, and then there won't be any more need for a boycott.
While I understand what you're saying about using comment threads to promote trans-friendly space, I hesitate to say that lack of response on a thread equals hostility or lack of interest.
Especially when the OP is offering advice, many people who regularly read and post on feministing may not feel they have advice to offer in this particular case. That doesn't mean they aren't sympathetic in a more general way. Conversely, posts with lots of comments can get that way because of trolling and otherwise hostile response. So I don't think lack of comments, per se, is something that by itself should be cause for concern.
Yes, that's definitely true. Number of comments isn't a good indicator of level of interest or support, but the Professor Foxy postings so far have been super-popular with commenters when they have dealt with cis sexuality. And now we have a question dealing with trans sexuality, and the response has been much slower in coming. Which strikes a chord with me based on the conversation about trans issues that took place over at Feministe, about the fact that the number of comments on postings about trans issues tend to be fewer in general. I don't think it reflects any individual person's level of interest, but I'm concerned that it points to a systemic reluctance to discuss trans sexuality on the part of cis feminists.
To be fair, the comment threads on her previous columns were mostly super popular because they were super controversial-- there were way more arguments going on than supportive posts. Given that most people only post if they have something contrary to the original post to say, I'd say that getting fewer comments might mean that more people are happy with this post. I know I didn't comment by now because I read it, thought pretty much "hmm, that was interesting" and went on-- I didn't have anything else to say about it. If I had disagreed strongly with the advice, then I would have posted earlier.
Good point. I agree that it's often tricky finding a non-intrusive, non-appropriating voice in conversations about issues we don't have personal experience with (in this case, being trans when we come from the perspective of cis privilege). Hopefully a lot of lurkers are learning from this comments thread and will be able to participate here or in the future :).
I think the lack of comments may be related to a lot of people feeling like they don't know what to say, or don't have the right to comment. I used to post on a mostly Christian message board, and periodically there would be threads about how the prayer threads got way fewer replies than the funny threads. But what came out in those threads was that it wasn't that people didn't read the prayer threads--it was that people didn't want to reply to prayer threads if they didn't feel they had something intelligent to say.
It could also be partly because this thread isn't incredibly controversial, especially since many other threads on Feministing about important but (within the feminist community) non-controversial don't get a lot of comments.
It might also be that most cis people feel that they knew what they were talking about regarding cis sexuality but think they just didn't have nearly enough of an idea of trans issues regarding sexuality to be able to make any kind of useful comment. For instance, I comment on very few of the Professor Foxy posts because I'm asexual and am really the last person you should ask about most things sexual; the only one where I felt I had anything useful to add was the one regarding partners with low sex drive. A similar dynamic may be going on here, only with cis vs trans issues rather than sexual vs asexual issues.
That said, I still think it's problematic. I know I'm more reluctant to comment on trans issues in general because of precisely that "I have no clue what I can say" feeling, but when many people feel like that it winds up turning into posts about trans issues being neglected. I often try to leave at least a short comment to make clear I've read the post and appreciate it - but that's difficult on this kind of post, which is asking for advice that I can't give.
I agree with you. I haven't commented on a lot of the trans topic posts because I have no personal experience of such matters and genuinely can't think of advice. However, I do read them with interest. My not commenting doesn't mean I'm not willing to learn or listen.
I'm also concerned about the lack of response to this.
I'm not sure if the lack of response is not for due to a lack of interest in trans issues. I've been Googling everything I can think of, as well as checking a few other places. There just doesn't seem to be a lot of info out there regarding Frustrated's question.
Yeah I totally meant what you said in the last paragraph. I guess I used "those" because I was referring to a specific group of transgender people and not all transgender people.
Personally I think it makes perfectly good sense to use the construction "those people who _____". The problem is when "those people" is used by itself (preferably with shifty eyes) to mean that you don't want to describe who exactly you're talking about but you feel they are beneath you.
So, in my opinion, "those people who were commenting on the last post said..." is fine but "hmm, you're one of those people..." is rude.
I would second trying out some of the LJ comms. My boyfriend is FtM and he's in both of the mirror groups for Trans Men of mtfinbed and mtf_undressed. They've both been wonderfully positive for him and helped us to explore new things together. There are also sites for partners of Trans individuals which I have found very helpful.
The only problem I have found is that if you live outside of the US, despite these being international comms, the focus is often of the US Trans community which can make answers to some questions useless (i.e. living on the UK we don't need to worry about insurance companies, because his treatment is funded by the NHS)
The overwhelming issue for most straight trans women is when to tell. Or if to tell.
Frankly, getting involved in a straight relationship as a post-op is playing Russian Roulette. There's a significant chance you'll end up in the ER or the morgue.
There's also the matter of the effect of male hormones on the body for so long. Frankly, many of us don't look too good. If the problem is the face, $30,000-$50,000 in having your skull re-constructed (with associated pain, risk of disfigurement etc) can fix that. Great if you are a millionairess, not so good if you're making $10 an hour.
If the problem is the body, forget it. Standard factory model females of age 50 have little chance of finding a guy who's worth tuppence. Add the TS bit, and the chances, while non-zero, are slim. Less than the chance of being tortured to death.
A lot has been written about women who have low self-esteem, who have "body issues" due to the impossibly high standards in airbrushed advertisements, movies and the like. But when you genuinely have a 45" ribcage and are 5' 6", when your problems are not imaginary, but very real, when you have never, ever, not for one second, ever felt sexy or beautiful in your life, and are just pathetically grateful that you no longer look male, then coming to terms with having a libido can be difficult.
Especially if when a guy finds you attractive, there's a greater than 1% chance he'll put you in intensive care if you respond.
Most older trans women who are even remotely Bi will eschew men altogether. It's far too risky. You're lucky if you only get raped, and not have eyes gouged out or other such pleasantries. For every one of us that gets murdered, perhaps ten end up crippled, maimed or disfigured.
I'm not arguing with anything you're saying Zoe, but rather why you're saying it. There are tons and tons of nasty implications of being trans, and they are very real. However, this isn't a reason to not explore one's sexuality... even if you're not in a relationship, there is solo play. Why torture yourself?
I hear your frustration. It's one thing to choose solo play as a way of exploring one's sexuality, but it's another to have that be one's only safe option because the world isn't safe for trans women. I think eastsidekate offers good advice about the need to not torture oneself, but wow, it must be really hard not to.
I think for trans women to fully explore their sexuality, the heightened fear of male violence and how it effects our sexuality has to be explored.
I'm one of those bi trans women that Zoe speaks of. Since I'm somewhat more attracted to women than men, I simply ignore my attraction to men. Beyond appreciating male beauty from afar, I'm exclusively lesbian. Why seek out men when the risk of violence is so obscenely high? Why do more trans women identify as lesbians than cis women? Could the heightened threat of male violence be a contributing factor in this phenomenon?
What if I decided to truly explore my attraction to men, though? I'd have to embrace the reality of male violence against trans women who are attracted to men. At this point in history, transphobia is so widespread, this kind of violence is virtually inescapable. Inevitably, fear does shape our sexuality—in countless ways both conscious and unconscious.
Of course, we aren't alone. Although the threat of violence may be higher for trans women, male violence shapes the sexuality of both trans women and cis women. So, I think we need to have an open and honest discussion about these issues for both trans and cis women. To a certain extent, this discussion has already been taking place for cis women. However, the dialog surrounding trans women's sexuality and male violence is still lagging behind. A lot more can be done to facilitate an open honest discussion for cis women too. We have common cause and that should be acknowledged.
I really don't know why you wrote this Zoe, other than to lament about your own experience. You write as if your experience is typical of what most trans women experience, and I don't agree at all.
Yes, transitioning at 50 is going to present problems, but more and more trans women are transitioning at a much younger age than that, and their experience is going to be much more similar to a ciswomans' experience.
As for the original OP, take some time to get reassimilated into the world, build your confidence, play with your self, and find what makes you tick first. Then, worry about finding a partner.
That's one of the reasons why so many of us support younger transitioners.
They have their own problems of course, and the danger of violence may even be higher for them.
Of the older Trans women I know, the number who have been put into a coma through violence exceeds the number who have found a stable relationship with a guy by a factor of 3:1. Basically, if you're not already in a stable relationship pre-op, the chances, while not zero, are genuinely remote. It's one of the things you have to know before surgery can be authorised.
And yes, they do quiz you on it, along with your knowledge of various surgical techniques, risk factors and so on. They make sure you know what you're getting into. The thing is... it's worth it. It's better than the situation you are in before, no matter what the disadvantages.
See Sexuality before and after Male-to-Female Sex Reassignment Surgery (PDF)
24% of post-operative women have no sexual experience post-operatively (vs 5% pre-op). For older women, double or triple that, with most of the rest being in exclusively lesbian relationships.
Women of all ages with disabilities face much the same problems, as do women with few financial resources once they become menopausal. The only difference is that they can try, try, try again without it being Russian Roulette every time.
FWIW, I have an MtF friend who has been in a stable relationship with a guy for over a year. Granted, she is living in a quite liberal city, is in her 20s, and looks feminine, but I think it's worth noting that a trans woman having a successful relationship with a guy is something that can happen.
Fear monger much Zoe?
"They have their own problems of course, and the danger of violence may even be higher for them." And you know this how? Try hanging out with a significant population of trans women under 40 and you might feel differently.
"Of the older Trans women I know, the number who have been put into a coma through violence exceeds the number who have found a stable relationship with a guy by a factor of 3:1. Basically, if you're not already in a stable relationship pre-op, the chances, while not zero, are genuinely remote. It's one of the things you have to know before surgery can be authorised."
Again, fear monger much? I've been in three great relationships over the six years I've been post and I can tell you that violence wasn't part of any of them. I know of no one thats had that experience either. Yes, SOME men are idiots, but that doesn't mean they are going to kill you.
"And yes, they do quiz you on it, along with your knowledge of various surgical techniques, risk factors and so on. They make sure you know what you're getting into. The thing is... it's worth it. It's better than the situation you are in before, no matter what the disadvantages."
I know its worth it, but to scare people into thinking its a life of violent outcomes is just plain wrong. Oh...and another thing...when I had srs, I wasn't "warned" about violence against trans people or even about a life of no partners. What sillyness you're spreading.
That study you cited was done years ago, among a very different trans population than what is out there now.
"Women of all ages with disabilities face much the same problems, as do women with few financial resources once they become menopausal. The only difference is that they can try, try, try again without it being Russian Roulette every time."
Your hyperoble is astounding, but terribly misguided. No, our relationships aren't "russian roulette every time" . I'm really wondering what kind of relationship experience (post op)you've had, or what age group you're in to spin it this way.
I'm hesitating to say this, because I don't want it to come across as if I'm equating my experience as a cis woman with yours, Frustrated. But for me, it's always been helpful to hear that other people have had similar experiences of their sexuality. So take this for what it's worth, and please know that I'm not suggesting that what I went through is anywhere near the same.
But I wanted to pick up on your suggestion that advice for you would be similar to advice for people who have also gone through other kinds of bodily changes. And I think you're right. I've gone through some major weight changes because of an eating disorder, and it really does change my relationship to my body and sexuality. Not only does it affect one's hormones, but the size of my breasts were pretty different. I also think that everyone goes through a certain amount of changes in their sexuality as they age anyway, but we don't tend to acknowledge it. Although I don't think there's any such thing as a "normal" sexual experience, I still always feel better when my therapist tells me that my response to something is perfectly normal. So, in case you feel the same way, I wanted to let you know that what you're going through strikes me as a normal response to a bodily change, and that you're not overthinking this at all.
Good luck with your self-exploration! I'll be sending you good thoughts.
I can't speak for anyone but myself, so I'm not going to hold my experience or opinions up as representative of trans women, but I submitted the question to Prof F so I can speak for Frustrated. (That is, for myself...) ::grin::
I actually really appreciate your comment. I don't have a problem with people using analogies to understand trans experiences or to help relate to what I'm going through. In fact, I think it's great, as long as it's done with respect (which you clearly did). And I'm getting a lot out of the comments in this thread in part because of the people like you who are willing to step up and say that they've had a similar experience with their own body and sexuality. So thanks.
This comment has been deleted.
Wow. What an incredibly bigoted response. You seem to believe that if it gets deleted it will be some overreaction on the part of the moderators. Try turning those words around on yourself. How would you feel if that same tone were directed towards cis women? You'd be pissed off to no end, I'd gather.
How was this comment at all necessary? How does this response have ANYTHING to do with the problem at hand?
Your clearly willful ignorance of trans issues is astonishing. Scratch that. Your level of disrespect for another human being is astonishing.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
1. If you're sure your comment is going to be deleted, maybe you shouldn't make it.
2. I'm a cis-gendered woman. Having boobs IS fun. (yes, sometimes they are irritating and a pain in the back and attract unwanted attention, but that doesn't mean that I can't enjoy my own breasts, thankyouverymuch) Yay boobs!
3. I've never identified as male or have had anyone gender as me as male, and I know I carry misogyny around with me. Yes, ciswomen get to share the social burden of lugging that crap around too, it's not all up to the men.
No, having boobs is not fun. Nor is is a hateful experience. They are just there and the fact that so much emphasis is put on them by cis-people just makes everyone's life more annoying.
No one goes around saying "Yay! Shoulders!" because it sounds stupid, and boobs should be the same. Society's obsession with boobs is closely linked with misogyny and the ownership that people feel they have over other people's.
I think it's misogynist to tell cis or trans women how they're supposed to (or not supposed to) relate to their own bodies.
While you can certainly describe how you relate to your body and how you react to the way other people may relate to your body, it's totalizing and presumptuous to apply that to other women.
I think this idea that there's supposed to be a universal way for women to be - how we relate to our bodies, for example, or how we relate to our sexuality, is pretty offensive and demeaning. It sets up false dichotomy, establishing "right" and "wrong" ways to be women, which simply replaces one set of policing attitudes about women with another.
In other words, when women say "I enjoy my breasts," I think there's something wrong with saying "You're not supposed to enjoy your breasts."
Its misogynistic to put so much emphasis on a body part which is only pointed out for consideration because of the patriarchy. If men didn't get usch a kick out of them I highly doubt that there would be so much focus on them.
I don't really agree with your idea that breasts are only a highly focused part of the body becuase of the emphasis men put on them. First of all, lesbians like boobs to, lets not forget...also, when I dress, and get my face on and everything, I like to make sure that the outfit compliments my chest. Their small, but I love my boobs! And not being in face 24/7, my breasts are a big deal, at least to an extent.
I'm going to have to agree with Lisa Harvey, and for that matter, I personally love my shoulders. It might sound weird, but I actually think my shoulders are very sexy. One of my FAVORITE items of clothing to wear is an off-the-shoulder shirt or sweater. Even weirder...here it goes...i love to rub my cheek against my shoulder, because my shoulder feels so smooth & cool against my cheek. I actually do take a liking to some parts of my body (I wouldn't say 100% unfortunately, but hey, I don't feel I'm perfect and I'm honest with myself about what I like & what I live with or work with!), including boobs & shoulders! I also love the shape of my nose & my feet. So what? I love my boobs! I love my shoulders! So there.
I've been taught to love my body. Not for men. For me. So there is nothing misogynist about me loving my shoulders. Yay shoulders!
I'm a ciswoman, and I love my boobs. I do think they are fun! I also love my waist and my face. Like a lot of people, I'm satisfied/dissatisfied/indifferent with/to some parts of my body and not others. I don't like my legs, for instance, but I would never tell a woman who does that she shouldn't. It's kind of...crappy to say that other women shouldn't enjoy a part of their body just because you don't.
And it doesn't strike you that the parts you mention that you are happy or unhappy with all have sexualised connotations based on the patriarchy?
You act as if:
1) Trans women aren't aware of all the crap women have to deal with. Having watched my perceived IQ drop 20-some points, and my status often demoted from colleague to object, I disagree.
2) You're somehow excited about the possibility of trans people leaving. How wonderful it must be to not have to deal with other people's issues. First, some of us aren't with the whole boycott deal. If I didn't go anywhere where folks made nasty comments about me, I wouldn't leave my apartment, Second, it's not as if everything on this site revolves around trans people. This is a feminist blog. People discuss feminist issues here. While I participate on some of the trans-related threads, I also participate on other threads. As a woman, feminist issues are my issues. Given that women are a diverse group, occasionally trans people come up, just as do issues of age, race, class, able-bodiedness, family status, sexuality etc.,
In conclusion, don't act like trans people don't get it or don't belong here, lest someone say the same thing about you.
I'm a cis-gendered woman, and I find your comment offensive. So don't chalk it up to "those people" because that is ridiculous. Maybe you should check out some of the readings and many, many posts on transphobia and cis-privilege to educate yourself on why your comment is transphobic.
Having boobs is fun, and it doesn't matter your gender or what you were sex-typed as at birth. If they are your boobs, it's a fun and totally healthy part of sexuality to explore them.
Your comment IS transphobic. And apparently you know it. So why the hell did you post it anyway?
Do you really think trans women are so out of it that they don't realize there are some negative consequences to being perceived as a woman? People don't just bumble into a transition cluelessly because they think it will be fun! They THINK ABOUT IT FIRST. And I'm pretty sure that trans women have already dealt with enough shit that they can handle a little more in exchange for being treated as themselves by society.
Lots of fun things (i.e. boobs) can come with some downsides or some risks. Yet you probably don't run around telling everyone about them all the time. Seriously, trans women are adults, they don't need cis people to "warn" or "rescue" them from a little informed risk.
As a cis-woman with DD breasts that I hated during puberty, Boobs ARE fun! My body parts are not defined by others, I own them and so if someone makes an unwanted comment, that makes them an asshole, not my boobs bad. They probably would find something else to hurt me about if my boobs weren't there because they are an asshole.
I love my boobs, they feel great when stimulated and are useful for certain sex acts as well. Yay for boobs!
Everyone is misogynistic to some extent because we are socialized in a misogynist culture, you just don't have a problem expressing your large level of misogyny toward trans women, which is inappropriate on a feminist site. We should encourage ALL women (who are respectful (by this I don't mean submissive or polite necessarily)) to feel comfortable on this site (and pro feminist and feminist men as well).
Wow, you really hate your breasts don't you? Hint: Breasts are great. It's not their fault some people think they're entitled to grope them or make comments.
I knew this post would bring out the transphobic morons, but you take the cake with the body shaming as well.
And no, if Frustrated is anything like the Trans people I've met she was born female, but in the wrong body but then I wouldn't expect someone like you to understand that.
Oh, and I love my boobs, just so you know.
Boobs are not great. Its this kind of attention that boobs get that makes them so tied up with misogyny. They are just there. If people quit giving them connotations then maybe the horrible things that did happen with them would cease.
Actually breasts are great. They're beautiful, useful, fantastic parts of the body and I love mine. You might not find yours all that awesome but that doesn’t stop me adoring mine. Embracing my beautiful breasts as part of me is part of me accepting the beautiful body I have. If you want to shame me or other woman who like their breasts then you have some issues. I’m now going to by my breasts a slutty bra to make them look even more awesome.
And are you honestly saying that if women didn't enjoy having breasts people wouldn't say misogynistic things about them?
I am saying that the focus on breasts is ridiculous. If it wasn't for the patriarchy's obsession for objectifying women's bodies and judging which ones were more desirable to them then women wouldn't feel the need to boast about how much they love their breasts. If it wasn't for the objectification they would just exist - no love and no hate. It is because of the patriarchy that it is breasts come into so much focus, and perpetuating that is what is misogynistic.
Trans women already experience plenty of discrimination and bigotry from the same people who make you feel uncomfortable by turning you into their sexual object. All women deserve the right to enjoy their bodies without that. And trans women certainly don't need any more crap to deal with. Your initial response of "blech" is being conditioned by those same assholes who see women's bodies as theirs to comment upon and co-opt. It's misogyny and transphobia that lead those men to say stupid shit like, "If I had boobs, I'd never get anything done because I'd just sit around playing with them all day." They say it precisely because they can't relate to women as people. Frustrated is a woman who is exploring her own body, and coming to terms with her own sexuality. She doesn't deserve this. I recognize where your personal reaction is coming from, but it should be directed at the misogynist assholes who think it's okay to harrass women, not at a fellow woman.
I'm sorry that asking you to be respectful of others and checking your privilege translates to you as being unable to agree with people. Would you treat cis posters the same way? Are you just tired of being asked to examine your privilege by trans posters and allies? Unfortunately, it's something you need to do, as do all of us.
Also, people feel entitled to grab and comment on my DD breasts all the time. I still love them because they aren't defined by what other people want to do to them. They're defined by my attitude towards them.
Hey all -
I am not deleting butterflywings' comments. While they are nasty, transphobic, and manipulative, the response to them has been so right on that I am leaving it as a great example of people on feministing responding to these kinds of comments.
Thinking that a trans woman needs to get breasts in order to have her body be commented on or to be harassed shows an amazing lack of knowledge regarding the experience of trans people.
Thanks to all the great responses to the initial comment.
Professor Foxy
The other option you have is replacing the comment with "This post has been deleted", which leaves the replies intact.
I agree. I don't think we should leave up transphobic shit just to pat Feministing commenters on the back for responding appropriately, or to show Feministing-wary trans people "See? See? We disapprove of transphobia here!" The point of moderating should be to facilitate safe space for trans people, not to buffer Feministing's reputation. Who does the decision to leave that comment up benefit?
Nothing will be lost by removing the text of the comment, except the opportunity for trans people to read yet another transphobic tirade.
In my opinion, anyway.
Comments can lose a lot when the thing they're replying to is deleted. IMO it should stay; when you get rid of the original offensive comment it's easy for people reading later to misunderstand and even think the enraged comments are overreacting.
Again, whose interests are we really considering?
When something has already been extensively responded to, my preference is usually to err on the side of leaving the conversation intact. What butterflywings said was vile, but I don't think it makes sense to render the replies (most of which were pretty good) cryptic and less intelligible by deleting the original statement. If people hadn't already replied, I'd have no issue with deleting.
Seeing transphobic idiocy posted and promptly shot down doesn't make me less likely to read comments and feel safe in comments sections here, as a trans person. Obviously it's different for others, but that's my take. I'd rather see what people were responding to so I know the context of the conversation that came afterward.
To me, the question isn't whether it's important to preserve follow-up responses (although I think most of the follow-up responses made the content of the original message quite clear). The question is whether this kind of comment is acceptable on Feministing.
What's more important here - that some readers will have to "guesstimate" the content of the original comment? Or that some readers will have to deal with the pain, nausea, and anger of reading something hateful and offensive launched at them in a forum that's supposed to be above that shit, but often fails in that regard?
Perhaps a useful method would be disemvoweling, as they do on Jezebel and BoingBoing. Inappropriate comments lose their vowels (ls thr vwls) - so if someone's really curious about the original content, they can usually parse it together, but those who aren't interested in reading it won't get snagged on it. I don't know. I just don't think that a transphobic comment deserves visibility by virtue of its responses. I'm not going to condone the presence of a comment using a racial slur, for example, just because a slew of commenters have an appropriately indignant response.
Okay, enough derailing for me.
Honestly, though, I think that in this case the responses make the nature of the comment fairly clear.
Emphatically seconded.
uhhhhh...
you do realize that by keeping the comment up, you are giving more attention to 1) Ms Transphobia 101 instead of the topic of the post and 2) the cis women who can pat themselves on the back for having easily defended trans people?
come on already!! let's just delete the comment -- screencap it if it makes you feel better -- and get back to the post, which has to do with TRANS PEOPLE, not cis people. this comment is allowing the thread to shift the focus back to cis people, as usual.
So I'm Frustrated, the original question-asker. I want to issue the standard "These are my opinions and should not be held to represent any trans women other than myself" disclaimer. Likewise, I want to make it clear that I've really enjoyed the discussion on this page and am glad I submitted the question, and that it was chosen.
That said, it's frustrating how quickly the comments have devolved into a meta-discussion on how to hold the discussion. As I said, I'm still glad I submitted the question and that it was chosen to be posted, and I really am getting a lot out of Prof F's response and further comments from others. But, by my count, between one half and two thirds of the comments are either directly off-topic, or responding to someone else's off-topic comment with further off-topic discussion.
Now, in a topic like this, it's hard to know what 'offtopic' really means - I do appreciate comments from cis men and women on their perspective, and I don't want it to come across that I think comments from someone who isn't trans (or is commenting about cis experiences) is inherently offtopic. It's not. Likewise, I really enjoyed posts from the people who used their own experiences to make sense of my question, and come up withanalagous situations. Obviously there is an issue with people being dismissive of trans experiences, but I've never had a problem with people acknowledging the reality that trans men and women don't hold a monopoly on issues surrounding sex and gender. Indeed, I'm eager to hear about the experiences of others - even those who aren't trans! - so that I might better understand my own.
But (and you knew there was going to be a 'but') after all the discussion on how to discuss trans issues, I'm a little disappointed in some members of the Feministing community. Again, I'm really getting a lot out of this discussion surrounding my original question. I can't stress that enough, and I've been trying to go through and leave responses - both agreeing and disagreeing - with comments that particularly struck me. And I'm really trying not to say, "You're not trans, so you can't comment/don't deserve to be educated on trans issues/etc." But I don't know that this thread was the appropriate place for a meta-discussion on the number of comments left by others or on Feministing's place in the trans community, and it certainly wasn't the place for accusations about my own misogyny (or the extensive discussion which followed on why that's transphobic).
And, damn it all, I don't know how to handle those things. I don't know the answer. As much as I'd like everyone to get a clue and not post those things in the first place, when someone does post something off-topic and/or transphobic, I'd rather have people respond than just ignore it. And I'm somewhat uncomfortable with deleting comments that are off-topic and/ortransphobic unless they're really inappropriate , because they may be of value to someone for some other reason. (Ideally, some other reason above and beyond a meta-discussion about their value or lack thereof!)
Likewise, while I really appreciated and enjoyed Prof F's response to my original comment, I'm frustrated by her saying, "While [the above comments] are nasty,transphobic, and manipulative, the response to them has been so right on that I am leaving it as a great example of people on feministing responding to these kinds of comments." Again, I don't know what the right answer is, even though I don't think this is it. Is the answer deletion? Of just the comment, or the comment and its replies? Some sort of 'asshole' alert? As one poster suggested, dissemvoweling the post? (Removing all the vowels so if you want to read it you can, but you have to go out of your way to understand the negative language.) I really don't know.
This is all made more complicated because people aren't going to be monitoring comments 24/7 with immediate response time. If a comment does stay up and generates multiple responses, is it worth closing down that entire thread to force staying on-topic?
I guess I'm asking a lot more questions than I am providing answers. And I'm guilty of being drawn into the meta-discussion about how to hold a discussion. So how's this - I'll offer a suggestion for improvement.
I think Feministing should come up with stock replacement text, along the lines of, "This comment is offtopic and/or offensive speech, and was not appropriate for this thread. Information on how to stay ontopic and respectful, and why this post may have been offtopic or offensive, may be found here." ("Here" would be a link with that information and, perhaps, examples of specific posts and why they wereofftopic or offensive.) The text would be put in place of the commenter's post, and no replies would be allowed to the replacement, but replies and discussion, including "I don't understand why my comment was offensive/offtopic," would be allowed on the linked-to information page. That would seem to satisfy everyone: those who are simply seeking knowledge and not attempting to be offtopic, those who are (intentionally or unintentionally) offensive, those who crave the meta-discussion about what is or isn't on-topic, and those who want the original discussion to stay a little more on topic...
Again, I want to reiterate that the experience of reading (and responding to) all these comments has been more positive than negative - it's reassured me that, on the whole,Feministing's community is able to be supportive when discussing trans issues. But not 100%, and not without veering offtopic along the way.
The whole point of a site like this is to generate discussion. When you post a question here you know its a relatively public space and will get other discussion along with answers to your question. That's how public spaces work. Things which attack someone should absolutely be deleted, but not stuff which you deem "off-topic". It goes out of your control the minute it is posted publicly.
I think there's definitely some truth to what you say - a site fostering public discussion should allow for that discussion to go where it will, and hesitate before stepping in to moderate so-called "offtopic" comments.
However, I selfishly want to be able to have a discussion with both cis and trans individuals about trans-specific issues without that discussion turning into a discussion on how to hold that discussion, and on why certain things are or aren't transphobic. Those are both very important conversations to have, and I hope the Feministing (not to mention feminist) community continues to have them. But, following the large conversation in April, I was under the impression that Feministing was hoping to create a space where trans-focused posts would not inevitably turn in those directions, which is why I posted what I did. I am sorry if I stepped on any toes, and I definitely didn't mean for this question to generate any controversy.
To imply that only offensive comments are harmful or worthy of moderation is to assume that the only way to participate in someone's marginalization is by abusing them. There are other ways - neglecting someone, ignoring their words, distracting others from their issue - things which are typical of online discourse but can take on power and privilege in a marginalized space. It's not selfish or foolish to want to be heard and addressed, it's selfish to think that right isn't important because "this is how online discussions are". And it's foolish to think this kind of perpetual derailment is natural. It doesn't happen on plenty of other sites with good moderation and commenting policies - hell, it doesn't even happen on plenty of other Feministing posts that don't deal with race or trans issues! Finally, let's say derailment really is natural and normal and democratic or whatever - so what? If it's testing the patience of trans commenters, would it kill us to change it? Could we behave as though the concerns and needs of trans community members really matter?
I hadn't actually thought of that, thanks.
I don't really think that the comments on boobs was derailing all that much though. Society's focus on boobs being a signifier of "femaleness" is hurtful to transpeople and to cispeople who don't fit that ideal. Some of the comments assume a functionality of breasts and for a lot of people, trans or cis, they are not functional at all.
Also, I know in my country that in order to get approved for the final operation as a trans person you have to "prove" how well you fit into stupid gender stereotypes. I guess I think that in any context, trans or otherwise, stereotypes should be challenged, and that's what I saw the boob comments to be.
They wouldn't be off-topic if the original post was about trans in general, stereotypes facing trans people, or the implications of breasts to trans women. But they're off-topic when the original post was about how to be sexual when you're pre-op. The only thing the original comment had in common with the derailment was "trans", which is not significant enough of a common denominator, I think, to argue relevance.
It's sort of like if a woman wrote a post about a sexual assault experience, asking for resources on how to tell friends and family, and instead we all discussed a recent high-profile court case involving rape. All the two subjects have in common is rape, nothing else. To focus on the court case instead of the woman seeking advice would be rather dismissive of her, wouldn't it?
Well before physical transition most trans women are subject to a huge amount of objectification and sexual harassment. Between the simultaneous messages society puts out that trans women are exotic sex objects for the gratification of strait men, and at the same time unlovable and ugly jokes, i think it awesome to see women like "Frustrated" working to reclaim her sexuality and love her body!
Eli Clare's talk "Gawking, Gaping, Staring: Living in Marked Bodies" is a nice listen/read about ways that society shames our bodies (ex. people with disabilities, trans people, fat people, people of color) and the projects we use to relcaim them!
http://www.chicagopublicradio.org/Content.aspx?audioID=29663
Oh cripes, butterflywings. Thanks for the news flash that I face sexual harassment. I mean, I hadn't really noticed in these fifteen years after my transition. The catcalls, the leers, the unwanted touch by strangers... oh and being chased for thrity miles by a trucker down an interstate in rural Pennsylvania. No, I hadn't noticed the harassment. Oh, and I've tended to stay inside more often at night these past fifteen years because moonlight is just less appealing, I guess.
I'm really tired of the condescending attitudes that some cis women show toward trans women when it comes to understanding the reality of sexism and sexual harassment. I can compare and contrast my experiences pre and post medical transition. Guess what? People treat me very, very differently: particularly men. Do you think trans women don't notice that we receive a mountain load of unwanted sexual attention now that the rest of the world sees us as women? Do you think trans women don't notice that we are now treated like idiots and children by so many men (and some women)? A trans woman would have to be dead or perpetually stoned not to notice.
I mean, I hadn't really noticed in these fifteen years after my transition.
Thank you for pointing this out. Whenever I end up in discussions like these it's apparent so many of the people who make these kinds of transmisogynist comments absolutely do not allow for any trans woman to have lived experience as a woman, without prefixes or asterisks. We didn't all transition when trans issues finally hit the radar of mainstream feminism, we've been around for a long time, folks. I too transitioned 15 years ago (Go early 90s! Aww, now I feel like listening to the Singles soundtrack), and I've been a feminist for even longer.
In the time since I transitioned, I've experienced misogyny, sexism, and assault. I have fought for my place in a male-dominated industry (which I entered after transition, before someone tries to wedge in some male privilege for getting my foot in the door. Instead I did it as many women have to, being twice as good and paid less) and mentored other women in that industry to help them further their careers. I am an activist for social justice, queer, and women's issues.
To have a cis feminist then suggest that the trans part of my experience means I have no idea what it means to face this discrimination as a woman? That's about the most ridiculously arrogant thing I can think of, and shows just how out of touch with the actual lives of trans women transmisogynists have to be to make sense of their transphobic views.
This isn't to say there is any number of years one needs to be transitioned to understand oppression as a woman, either. That is not the point at all, and it is not the place of cis feminists to police trans lives like that. The point is that denying the lived experience of others to establish your point is oppressive and bigoted.
(You know, come to think of it, one of the last cis women to grab my ass without asking me or respecting my boundaries was a performer who played Michfest and spoke in support of the policy of trans-inclusion. I guess that's kind of ironic.)
* oops, I mean she supported trans-exclusion
I'm going to work on the assumption that you didn't understand why your comment was offensive and were not trying to be trans-phobic, because I know that it's not unheard of for people to make offensive comments because they don't understand how to not be offensive, and to become cynical about people's inferences of bigotry as a result.
First, trans people do understand what sexual harassment is like, because our society is not kind to people whose gender presentation is not completely traditionally masculine or feminine. "Frustrated"'s body has probably appeared at least somewhat ambiguous gender-wise during her transition, so she's almost certainly copped sexual harassment and people treating her as an object for that.
Second, she was never psychologically male. Straight and bisexual men may regard breasts as "funbags", but for her they were probably "things my body is supposed to have and doesn't". (I'm a cis woman, so trans women, please correct me if I'm wrong on this.) It is not appropriate to refer to a trans person as "having been" the gender they were assigned at birth, because that suggests that gender is determined by one's body rather than one's psychological identity, which denies the reality of trans people's experiences.
Third, dismissing accusations of transphobia is inappropriate because transphobia is very real, and because people do not always realize when they have internalized transphobia. Even those who do not have conscious ill will towards trans people sometimes say things that are genuinely hurtful and offensive to trans people. That is an unfortunate result of widespread lack of knowledge about trans issues, and also of the fact that some people are better than others at picking up information about appropriate social behaviour. (I've been called out on my privilege myself because of that.) Those of us who are cis (or part of other privileged groups) need to be willing to learn what behaviour does and does not convey respect and acceptance to other people.
"for her they were probably "things my body is supposed to have and doesn't". (I'm a cis woman, so trans women, please correct me if I'm wrong on this.)"
As a trans woman who hasn't transitioned at this time, I wanted to say that this lines up with my experience pretty accurately - you hit that one right on, as far as I'm concerned.
Thank you; I appreciate that.
I'm Frustrated, the one who submitted the question. I want to make it very clear I'm speaking only for myself, and not for other trans women, and that their experiences and opinions may not be the same as mine. Likewise, I want to say how much I really appreciate all of the positive comments that have come out of this question, and that I'm trying to go through and respond where it seems appropriate. (Putting the oddness of blogs and being able to hold discussions for a write-in column aside.) With that out of the way...
I don't need to wait to experience harassment, butterflywings, because I've actually already had people grab my breasts, provide unasked-for comments on their size, question their reality, and many of the other ways cis women experience harassment. Please don't assume I said my boobs were fun because I'm blind to the social and cultural baggage that comes with them. Rather, I was asking advice from a sex columnist and it seemed appropriate to acknowledge that transitioning comes with positive experiences, even though it has also been difficult and not without unexpected twists and turns.
As for accusations of having been male and suffering from misogyny, I'm not going to pretend I'm magically free of the effects of having been socialized as male for twenty-plus years, and that transitioning hasn't been a humbling experience. Transitioning has helped me understand exactly how insidious culture and socialization is in creating expectations about appropriate behavior, and I am learning that certain things I was socialized to think were OK really aren't. You have every right to call me out if you perceive something I say to be misogynistic. But you don't have a right to presume I don't know what I'm talking about, or that everything I say, as a trans woman, is automatically misogynist.
Likewise, claiming something to not be transphobic doesn't make it not transphobic. Your post was transphobic because, as I said, you made specific assumptions about who I am and why I was saying certain things based on your (negative) view of trans women. Likewise, by claiming trans women who disagree with you are simply "sulking," you dismiss their (our) legitimate objections and reduce any possible responses to pettiness.
I hope you're able to learn from the responses to your post, and continue to contribute your comments in the future.
Hey Rebecca,
I just wanted to say that you are a pretty awesome commenter, and that I appreciate the responses you are providing in-thread. Kudos.
You are amazing.
I really hate how someone's "boobs aren't fun" statement is being argued as "wrong" just because some people think their boobs ARE fun.
Well, I'm going to have to agree with butterflywings. I hate having breasts and have always hated having breasts. Mine aren't big by a long shot, no one has ever commented on them or groped them (my students do, but that's another story), and I still hate them. They are nothing but a nuisance and are always in the way, ruining the shape of my figure, and I simply cannot understand why other people enjoy having them or place so much importance on them. (My mother would rather suffer chronic back pain than lose a little bit of breast. Seriously.)
This does not make me wrong.
This does not make you wrong.
You can think of them as funbags. I'll think of them as useless sacks of adipose.
The problem with butterflywings' comment isn't whether she personally considers her breasts to be fun, but her immediate assumption that if a trans woman enjoys her own breasts attached to her own body, that she's misogynist.
It's one thing to have personal feelings about your body and relate to your body in personal ways, especially as it pertains to how your body has been objectified by other people. It's completely something else (and misogynist) to start shaming women (trans or cis) because they don't hate their bodies as much as you hate yours. She also stated it transphobically, and practically wished for Rebecca to experience sexual harassment sufficient to make Rebecca hate her own body.
People aren't calling her out on hating her breasts. They're calling her out because she tried to shame Rebecca because Rebecca doesn't hate her breasts. Because Rebecca likes her breasts, as if it's somehow impossible for a cis woman to also like her breasts. As if trans women are somehow different from cis women in everything that we do.
This conversation wasn't about butterflywings, and it's not about you. It's not about whether women should or should not love their breasts, and it's not about shaming women. This is derailing.
I know a lot of people have criticized this already, but I wanted to comment on a few things.
1) I often notice that when cis women celebrate their bodies as fun or sexy (at least, in feminist space), this is celebrated as empowerment and healthy self-confidence, but when trans women do it, it is more often looked at as a result of "male" attraction to female body parts (heteronormativity, anyone?)
2) It is a very short step from this to "Trans women are really men, weird men who would NEVER want to be women if they knew how HORRIBLE it really is!" Which is not only dismissive and insulting to trans women, it's also somewhat dismissive and insulting to cis women (through the implication that you would NEVER want to be one of THOSE!) I know this isn't directly what you were trying to say, but unfortunately it's such a common sentiment that I highly doubt I'm the only trans woman who thought of it when I read your comment, and it's also implied when you call trans women "male" and then go on to say that we have no idea what being a woman is REALLY like.
3) "Yep, those poor trans people gotta run off in a sulk because some commenters didn't agree with them..."
...
seriously?
First of all, there is a BIG difference between actively pointing out privilege and bigotry on a feminist blog and "sulking in a corner."
Secondly, I'm sure you've seen it written about in countless places how bigotry and transphobia often tragically lead to violence and all kinds of discrimination against us. So yes, I DO take it seriously when someone starts spreading transphobic views - even if you think you are (somehow) well-intentioned, or if you yourself would never think of committing violence against a trans person yourself, this kind of view is enabling and encouraging of more serious bigotry. It is also discrimination to treat someone as ignorant or not entitled to their body or their own choices or feelings about it.
other points about misogyny and your dismissiveness of transphobia have already been addressed, but let me just say that I agree with what's already been said.
oops, I posted this in the wrong spot, sorry! I was trying to reply to butterflywings. Sorry for any confusion!
Lest we get bogged down on the needs of actual trans people (as opposed to having a shouting match about privilege and the legitimacy of trans identities), let me add that as frustrating as it is to see trans women's bodies absent from discussions of sexuality, you shouldn't ignore ideas about sex just because they don't involve people with your particular body type. Women's bodies and sexualities are diverse, and there's plenty of different things that work (or don't) for different people. Buy a vibrator (or 4) or whatever else piques your interest. Explore. Feminist-run sex shops are heaven sent. I can personally vouch for The Smitten Kitten in Minneapolis (I'm sure they'd be willing to give you some ideas over the phone), although I've heard amazing things about other shops, too. You don't need fancy toys, but if you have the means and the inkling, by all means, take some time to see what ya' think is fun!
The Smitten Kitten has a website:
http://www.smittenkittenonline.com/
They're in Minneapolis so I'm assuming it's the same place.
Good For Her in Toronto (www.goodforher.com), the shop that does the Feminist Porn Awards, is amazing as well. I was able to comfortably buy sex toys there way, way back when I was still planning on waiting for marriage to have sex and had only French kissed one guy, and while that doesn't speak to trans people's experience, it shows what a friendly and comfortable place the store is. They serve you TEA, I kid you not. They also have women- and trans-only hours, and generally are explicitly inclusive of trans people.
So I saw this post yesterday but avoided clicking on the comments because feministing normally has a reputation of not providing an entirely safe space for trans issues. . .
Now I'm commenting because I feel compelled to say how pleasantly surprised I was when I finally decided to brave the comments - and I want to say thank you to the OP and the commenters (with the exception of the one transphobic comment) for their honesty and supportive, thoughtful comments. :) Thank you.
Frustrated, I'm going to give you some advice that you are free to ignore. This is what I did...it may not be what will work for you.
Transition is a pretty intense time period. And it tends to make a person very inwardly focused. This is a good thing. For me, transition was amazing and great...but also, everything was new and I was in a bit of a delicate space in terms of being me and loving myself and figuring out who I was going to be.
Dating other people is always a bit stressful. Especially so when one is trans. But even more especially so when one is still in the transition process. While as a trans person you have to figure out your sexuality and self, very often the people you end up dating have a bit a sexuality/identity crisis as well...that you end up having to deal with. Which may not be all that healthy when you are still working yourself out.
I stopped dating during my transition. I masterbated and really connected with my changing body. I really got centered and confident with who I was. I explored what made me feel sexy and how my body moved. I went out dancing and just checked in on myself as a sexual being. And that changed every month. So, what worked for me was taking a break from other people and concentrating on my self and my body for a while. Then, when you are at rest with yourself...then going out and interacting sexually with others.
But there is something else I want to say, not just to Frustrated, but to the board as a whole.
There is all this talk about men being dangerous. And certainly, there is a horrific amount of violence directed towards transwomen by cismen--I do not minimize that at all. But, there seems to be an underlying idea that lesbians are peaceful and lovely. That dating them is the "safe" choice. Putting aside for a moment that there is physical violence in lesbian relationships, I want to point out that there is more sort of violence than just physical abuse. There is emotional abuse. There is the damaging sort of violence to a person's being that can drive people to suicide, lonliness, misery, etc. And there is, sadly, no shortage of that sort of emotional abuse towards transpeople coming from ciswomen. And not just Mary Daley or Janice Raymond, but also from on these boards.
Frustrated, whatever your sexuality might end up being, you deserve to date someone who will not physically assault you nor emotionally assault you. You deserve someone who will honor your sexy, sexy body and soul (whatever it may end up looking like--pre-op, post-op, non-op, partial-op, whatever). Someone who will enjoy pleasing you as much as you learn to please yourself. And most importantly, someone who respects you and your identity.
Those things are possible to find. You can find those qualities in men, women, and all other gender identities, cis, trans or genderqueer, gay, straight, bi, pan, or poly.
For some reason, it will not let me hit the "Liked" button - but I wanted to let you know - I loved this comment.
Much of this comment resonated with me. As a ciswoman, the best thing I ever did for myself sexually was to not date while going through puberty. By the time I got to college I had a profound sense of my self as a sexual being in my own context. I don't mean to say that transition and puberty are the same experience- just that I agree with the idea that it's very important to have a sense of your own sexuality in isolation from and not defined by your partners.
I also stopped dating during transition. It was a conscious decision and I think the right one for me. I knew that transition would be a time of intense introspection, and I learned a lot about myself. Also, it's a difficult and tumultuous time and I didn't want to put someone else in the position of having to deal with my problems and because I knew I wouldn't have enough emotional resources to support them when they were in need.
Having said that, the first 6 months when I finally did start dating were pretty epic. I did a lot of things I never imagined doing and had a lot of fun discovering my post-transition sexuality. I've found I'm straight-leaning bi. And my dating life has definitely hit a dry spell, but I think that has more to do with a sexual assault than anything else. It's been 18 months and I finally got out of the condo I was living in when it happened, so I'm hoping to get back out there soon.
So, I guess what I'm saying is, choosing to wait may not be right for you, but it is something to think about. And vibrators. Yes.
(This is Frustrated, who submitted the question. Obligatory "I speak only for myself, and my experiences should not be assumed to represent all trans women everywhere" disclaimer.)
Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate it. In fact, I was, up until about four months ago, in a long-term relationship with someone who knew me since before I started transitioning. I'm now single, in large part because I realized I couldn't be fair to the person I was seeing and to myself if I were transitioning while in a relationship. That isn't to say it's impossible to do so, or others shouldn't, but I agree that it was the right decision - for me - to get out of a relationship I very much wanted to be in so that I could focus on myself. So thank you again for your advice, and I definitely agree that I want to do some more figuring out of how I enjoy being sexual all by my lonesome before I start focusing on being sexual with other people.
As for the rest of your post, thank you even more for that. First, because I agree - it makes me uncomfortable when women assume that all heterosexual relationships are dangerous. I think it's possible to remind people that dangers exist for trans individuals without entirely discounting every man out there. But, more, for what you said after that.
I've been having a lot of trouble with confidence and with my own view of myself. A reminder that I - and everyone - is worthy and deserving of happiness and love. So thank you, as much as I can, for your comment.
I've lurked here on Feministing for ages but have never commented, even during the recent uproar over being a trans safe space. (As to that I think the moderators did a great job)
I love this question to Dr. Foxy because I am a trans woman and have notice how terrified the trans female community is to talk about sex. Not only are we scared of reactions from the public and those we're attracted to but because of the way the psychological community has treated us we're afraid to discuss our sexuality lest we get labeled not-trans and denied treatment.
So I'd like to thank Dr. Foxy for the kind answer and most of the commentators for being great about this.
As far as the person who says being post-op is akin to Russian roulette. From what I can tell that is not true. Pre-op without question, but even there with the right percautions and screening it is pretty damn easy to eliminate the problems.
I think as Zoe pointed out...She is in the 50+ category. From what I recognize the differences of older and younger trans women and the age in which you transitioned plays a big part into it. From what I can tell, it is almost two entirely different things.
Also the one thing I have noticed is the younger transitioners almost ALWAYS bite the bullet with regards to FFS.
Can we please not make generalizations about younger vs. older women who transition? I've seen this approach used in other venues to marginalize the experiences of older transitioners. Even though I transitioned in my twenties, I refuse to categorize my experiences and perspectives as somehow more valid than Zoe's. I'm not saying that you can't disagree with her, but please don't try to dismiss her experiences and perspectives by using her age of transition as a factor.
According to data from HRC, trans people have a 1 in 12 chance of being murdered vs. 1 in 18,000 for cis people. Some people do have higher risks. From the stories I've read over the years, if you are poor, a person of color, or a sex worker, your chances of being murdered appear to be much higher than trans people from other demographics.
While I don't think people should allow their lives to be crippled by fear, the threat of violence shouldn't be dismissed. It effects us and we need to talk about it.
So I've had 24 hours to think about things and reread a lot of this discussion thread, and I want to include a followup to my above post.
In the end, I'm upset about how the discussion in this thread happened. First,it would have been nice if Prof F had quoted some trans people she'd talked with. It's entirely possible the "people" she spoke with are trans, and simply threw up their hands in confusion at my question, but I find that difficult to believe. Likwise, I naively thought that, after the huge discussion at Feministing about gender and trans issues last month, people would be able to hold their shit together and comment on a trans-specific question without veering wildly off topic.
I also don't think any moderators stepped in to do anything about it. Indeed, Prof F said she was going to leave up a transphobic comment to provide "a great example of people on feministing responding to these kinds of comments." Screw that.
I realize this is all in direct opposition to how I ended my previous post, where I said that "I want to reiterate that the experience of reading (and responding to) all these comments has been more positive than negative - it’s reassured me that, on the whole, Feministing’s community is able to be supportive when discussing trans issues. But not 100%, and not without veering offtopic along the way."
I think I have to take that back. Feministing's community was able to (almost across the board) not be transphobic. That's definitely worth something, and is reassuring. But I'm not convinced that's the same thing as being supportive.
I plan to continue to participate in the Feministing community, but today was an eye-opener. I'd like to think I could have appreciated how offtopic and (whatever)-phobic discussion can be silencing and remove the possibility of a positive community experience without having it directly apply to something about myself. But I sure as hell can see all of that when it is around a question I asked, and a discussion I prompted.
Hi Rebecca -
You are right on that it was BS for me not to delete the comment. I have deleted it and want to publicly apologize for not doing it early. It was a mistake.
For you and for others who ask me questions for the column, in addition to my own research, I very, very rarely answer without running it through at least two people with similar experiences as the writer. Most of these people are sex educators, some of them are not. I do not quote them verbatim and end up adapting what they say to fit the column. I discussed this column with multiple people before posting (all of whom are trans).
Conversations meander on all of these topics and I think that is often the nature of sex and sexuality. One thought leads to another, leads to another.
I am sorry for not moderating. I am still working through how to use this medium and am becoming better at this.
Thanks,
Professor Foxy
I just saw this now. I want to just formally apologize for making several derailing comments higher up in the thread, it was not cool and not okay. In hindsight I should have just emailed my feedback to Prof. Foxy directly. I don't know if this response to you is also going to serve as a derailment too - I find it rather depressing that you've had to, essentially, moderate your own thread minus the actual moderating power. I'm sorry if this comment will just add to the problem.
I think you've brought up a larger issue with Feministing and it's privilege politics: it's getting better at declaring when something is racist, transphobic, or whatever, but the buck stops there. We aren't being transphobic, but we aren't being allies either. All of the problems that cropped up on this thread could have been solved quickly:
- Abusive comments should be deleted (BEFORE, not BECAUSE, a member of the marginalized group has to complain), commenters should feel that hitting "report abuse" isn't just like the useless "close doors" button in elevators. If we really can't get more mods - and I think we can - a Slashdot-style function in which reported comments and subsequent replies are automatically hidden (with an option to show) may help. I don't think it's enough though.
- When there's a history of inadequate moderation on trans threads, it's probably not a good idea for whoever greenlighted this to put up a trans thread when our moderators are all away for that institute thing and the contributor isn't prepared (either due to time constraints or lack of skill/experience) to moderate effectively. More mods plz, ideally trained, who can do the grunt work and also advise contributors who are understandably new to this business.
- Commenters who start inadvertently derailing on posts in which safe, non-hijacked space is both rare, vulnerable, and essential (i.e., WOC issues, trans issues, etc) can be cut off with an "Okay, this is becoming a derailment, if you want to discuss this angle further please write a community post about it!"
- Commenters and mods are encouraged to think, before acting, about who their actions benefit or potentially hurt. It's not hard, we're just not used to doing it because -- as you know -- we're trying to avoid being assholes, as opposed to pushing that standard and trying to be actual allies.
There's really no good excuse for these WOC and trans issues to go on as long as they have. I feel like everyone's running around waving their arms and saying "We're trying!" and "We're still learning!" and "We're doing our best!" but nothing's getting done. This isn't rocket science. If trans people and WOC are boycotting Feministing, to me that indicates a crisis mode in which people need to get their fucking shit together and produce results, and it truly baffles me that this much time can pass without, seemingly, any tangible progress. I'm not trying to be too hard on the editors and contributors, but come on people, let's back up our good intentions with genuine effort. Even as I'm writing this, I feel like if an editor responds to me they'll say something like "These are certainly issues we've been discussing and working on, and we hope to meet again this month to decide on blah blah blah..."
What I want is for some editor to say, "Yeah. Trans-only thread to discuss a trans-specific commenting policy will go up in two days, policy will be formulated five days after, posted for trans people to critique, and finalized two days later. A sticky post or prominent link about the new policy will remain up for two weeks. Mods will be encouraged to delete violating comments and replace them with a link to said policy. Policy will always be open to revision based on suggestions and polls from the trans community."
...but that never seems to come.
Anyway, I'm sorry you've been put in this position, and I'm sorry if I contributed to it.
Seconding this. I apologize for contributing to the derailment.
This comment has been deleted.
Just a casual reminder to anyone reading this that we have the option to report abuse instead of uselessly responding to hijackers and trolls, lest anyone be tempted.
My thoughts exactly.
Professor Foxy,
m Andrea is a notorious transphobic, trans misogynist troll. Her participation in trans discussions inevitably boils down to demeaning descriptions of trans people and telling us our lives are a lie.
Her unfettered participation in any trans discussion is virtually guaranteed to make that discussion unfriendly and unwelcome to trans people.
Thank you for the apology ghostorchild (and others). I completely appreciate and accept them, but I don't know how necessary they are. I feel like there's a critical mass of derailment, after which it's not possible to get things back on track. At that point, all you can really do is dive in and try to make sure something good comes out of the derailment. (And I do I think the conversation happening in this thread is good and important. It just sucks that it happened to spring out of a sex-advice column.)
As for your suggestions, I think you're spot on. As I said, and as you seem to be aware, once a thread has been derailed there's a limit to how much 'fixing' can be done. I think the moderator(s) making sure to only post trans/WOC threads when they're able to effectively moderate them could be better than having more, but less respectful/ontopic, threads on the same subjects.
And, finally, yes - I would love to see Feministing simply put it's foot down and say, "Here's the deal. Live with it." There was some of this in the previous trans discussion last month, but it didn't seem to result in a cohesive policy materializing for dealing with topics that are known to be sensitive and have a tendency to drift off-topic.
These may or may not be useless in the trans department, but here's what I've got. I'm basing this on some of my own cis experiences, and on pre-op and post-op trans women I spoke to when I worked at a sexual health hotline a year ago.
+ When sex becomes a loaded thing, it's very possible that what starts off as a "normal" sexual encounter can devolve into something very confusing or upsetting, and you may not know why, and you may worry that your partner is all "what the hell" because everything seemed to be going so well. A good partner will be okay with stopping, letting you cry or gnash your teeth or start talking obtusely about how the sex is creating an existential crisis for you, and will kiss you lovingly and tell you to shut up when you start apologizing profusely for being such a wreck. The important thing is that it's both normal and okay if you do find yourself - as I've find myself, before - a bit hysterical and upset out of nowhere.
+ Sometimes we stumble upon a source of pleasure that seems wrong, at worst, or incongruent, at best, and there's a tendency to try to radicalize it or make it subversive or try to explain it into submission but sometimes it's better to just let it be and enjoy your bad-ass contradictory self. That said, I think there are some sexual experiences where you can tell yourself "this is acceptable pleasure" all you want and you still might feel eaten up with guilt or shame or disgust or confusion, and sometimes it can be hard deciding whether that practice should be continued or stopped - it can be hard knowing what's best for you. I think talking to other trans women really helps. I think it's also important to reiterate to yourself that it's okay to be gentle on yourself. We're so hard on ourselves sometimes.
+ Erotic fiction (or just flat-out alternative porn, if you're into it) can sometimes make for good research material in discovering fantasies and sexual ideas you wouldn't have expected or imagined on your own. I've heard good reviews of Blank & Kaldera's anthology "Best Transgender Erotica" - supposedly it covers a great diversity of trans experiences and is quite hot. Writing your own erotic fiction can also help outline some sexual paths you may eventually tread with a partner. The bonus to this kind of fantasy play is that it's eye-opening but risk-free. Along those lines, sometimes it's nice to lie beside a sexual partner and have "live cybersex" - talking out what you'd like to do. It can be very psychologically arousing, and it's a good test to see if the idea of something rubs you the wrong way.
+ I think one of the effects of this stuff is that there can be sort of a gnawing disconnect between "you" and "your body" which can make sexual exploration feel a bit self-alienating. I had a friend who, during her transition, actually stuck a list of questions on her wall to ask herself every night. Things like (imagine her name is Maddie): "What felt good to you today, Maddie?" and "Did anything hurt you today, Maddie?" and "How are you feeling, Maddie?". I'm not 100% sure why she did this - when I asked, she seemed a bit embarrassed - but the gist she gave me is that with everyone focusing on her body (including herself) she was feeling somewhat fragmented. She wanted to be able to feel more overlap between "her" and "her body", even as her body was fluctuating and changing like crazy. Those questions, I think, were a way for her to respond as a single entity.
+ My favourite blogger Little Light who turns me into a sobbing mess on a regular basis once wrote in this post: http://takingsteps.blogspot.com/2009/03/fair.html
...about how sometimes we so intensely internalize the idea that we're gross, unlovable, fucked up, freaks, etc -- that it's almost too hard, too painful, to love ourselves and our bodies and to say, "I didn't deserve that. I deserve love." This may or may not have anything to do with your particular sexuality, but I think it's worth thinking about anyway if you ever struggle with self-esteem and self-acceptance issues. Recommended reading from an amazing trans woman of color.
+ Along those lines, I think that sometimes getting in touch with one's sexuality is made to feel obligatory, like a chore, or eating your broccoli. If you're comfortable with it and it's accessible to you, getting a massage or acupuncture, going to a spa, or just having friends give you a scalp massage or backrub can be surprisingly validating and soothing. Ditto for baths, saunas, whirlpools, water in general. Ditto for cuddly animals. Getting this everyday sort of pleasure out of your body can be a useful reminder during tough times that it can make you feel good, and you can make it feel good. I know it's a cliche, the whole "have touch in your life" thing, but I find that a lot of people (myself included) can forget how good it feels to be touched without feeling like you're imposing, asking too much, potentially turning someone off, or whatever. I had an HIV+ client once almost break down when a friend casually kissed him on the cheek to say hello; he was in the middle of an absurd drug regimen and felt like his body was going to pieces - it was a really rough period for him - and here was this person who gave him a kiss with no thought, just saw another human body and thought it deserved kissing. Sometimes, even when you cognitively know it, it's good to just rub in the fact that your body, too, is good to kiss, every lovely unpredictable inch of it.
+ Lastly, this has no basis whatsoever, and might be completely ridiculous, but I've found with my own sexual issues that getting outside of my normal environment really helps. Like staying in a friend's apartment while they're away, getting a hotel room, or camping out in a tent. This all hinges on having some considerable class privilege, but if getting out is accessible to you, sometimes a change of scenery can really free you up in unexpected ways. It can also work as a pleasant distraction if you find yourself overthinking shit and needing some forced relaxation.
That said obviously I'm operating a platform of relative ignorance here, so I apologize if this is all hooey.
..a little late to this convo, but I thought your response was the best advice on this whole thread :)
Me too!
I don't think it's late, or bad advice at all. In fact, I'm bookmarking your comment to reread later!
People tend to misunderstand what I'm about to say, so I'll try to be clear:
The idea that "no one should tell other people what to do or what NOT to do" applies to ALL.
So it becomes kinda freaking stupid for Ben to tell Bob that he shouldn't tell Bill what to do.