When Carol Sarler shares the following info over at the Daily Mail, you might assume that she'd then make an effort to defend the perfectly reasonable right of all women to decide when, if, and how they have children (IF being the operative word here):
Research conducted over six years shows that far from bosses and colleagues always being suspicious of a working mother, the opposite is becoming true: it is the childless woman who is regarded as cold and odd.As a result, it is these single-track careerists who are increasingly likely to be vilified, refused jobs and denied promotion because many employers believe them to lack what the study calls 'an essential humanity'.
Instead, this incredibly insensitive and just plain discriminatory writer, does everything in her literary powers to chastise any woman who doesn't want children:
It's not the mothers, for a start, who are going to turn up late and hungover after a night on the razz; they'll have been up, dressed and alert for hours, having cooked a family breakfast and delivered their children to school. On time.It's not the mothers, usually, who run the office bitch-fest.
They're not there to compete for the attentions of the male executives; they're there to get out of the house; they're there because they genuinely enjoy some adult company; and they're there because they have mouths to feed other than their own and shoes to buy for someone else's feet.
I'm the kind of lady who has known she wanted kids since she was a kid. It's just something I've felt in my bones. But it is exactly because it is such an intuitive, personal feeling that I know it isn't necessarily, nor should it be, a shared sentiment. Raising children is a huge sacrifice--financially, emotionally, in terms of sleep and autonomy--and one that, yes, a lot of women and men are up for, but it is beyond understandable when folks don't want to procreate. It actually makes more rational sense in a certain way.
If you love your childless life, and don't feel the pull to procreate, why in the world would you do it? So you could be a better worker, as Sarler bizarrely suggests? So you can cease your boozing? So you can stop looking for a man (because, ahem, all women are heterosexual and all mothers are married. Wha?!)? So you can stop being such a bitch (this, too, makes perfect sense...childless women, who get eight restful hours of sleep, great sex, and can spend what would have been diaper money on a massage or a great meal are always such bitches!)?
Suffice it to say that this Sarler gal has gotta a lot of hate mail coming her way. And I hope it's not just from those wacky childless women, but from all of us who champion every woman's right to choose about children.
Thanks to multiple readers for giving up the heads up.
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What a horrible, insulting screed. I'm a mom, and none of this makes any sense to me. I think it's actually unfair to both parents and the childfree: you're either a drunken bitch or a supermom. All that stuff she's talking about ("they'll have been up, dressed and alert for hours, having cooked a family breakfast and delivered their children to school. On time.") is damn near impossible to do without a strong support system, and nobody can do that every day of their lives. No superpower in the world makes a parent fully functional at work after spending a night awake with a sick child. And the idea that a childfree career woman would routinely go out and party when she knows she has work in the morning is ridiculous. It is, in fact, possible to have self-discipline without having children.
Yeah I thought about that too. Don't forget Moms: be sure to cook your family an entire breakfast before heading off to work!
Who has time for all that? My DAD gave me a bowl, milk and a box of cereal (no he did not pour the milk and cereal into the bowl for me, I did that all by myself!) before dropping me off at school. My mom was gone before I even woke up most days because she had to be at work by 7 (didn't make her any less of an awesome mom though).
Wow. What an incredbily offensive article.
As a single woman I apparently only have this job of mine so I can flirt with the male executives, bitch to other co-workers about my life, and make enough money to buy nice shoes and go boozing after work. I couldn't possibly be working to pay my rent, save up money for grad school, help pay off my student loans, get good work experience for the future and make good future business connections. That would be silly.
I'm just a greedy greedy bitch.
I am proud to be greedy, cold, distant, and selfish. I've never liked kids, never cared for them, and never plan on having any. if I had a kid, the kid would be miserable and I would be miserable.
So why would people want me, a selfish woman, to have children and then give them a miserable life?
Why can't people understand that only PEOPLE WHO LOVE KIDS, SHOULD HAVE KIDS?
I have a kid who I absolutely adore. But, I was never a person who loved kids. I like kids more now that I have my own but I'm still not one of these fervent kid lovers. Anyway, I loved my kidless life, I love my life with kid. And when I was kidless, I showed up for work on time, took my job seriously, saved money, acted professionally around my colleagues, etc. etc. etc. I guess I"m just echoing what many have already said - this article is ridiculous.
I'm like you alexandra23. I love my daughter to distraction but I don't particularly care for children as a concept. The thought of trading 'cute kid stories' with other parents is enough to make me break out into hives.
i concur 100%. i loved my pre-kid life, and i love my with-kid life. but there are most certainly trade-offs, and if i wasn't prepared to make them (and in one case i wasn't, and had an abortion), then having kids would have been the absolute wrong thing to do for myself.
but guess what....the fundamental me, ambitious, hard-working (probably to a fault), and everything else....has remained the same, no matter the state of my uterus.
grrr.
That's what I've always been hoping actually. I really want kids one day. I really really do. But I really really don't like kids. People always tell me that I'll MY kids though. I don't know, it's always worried me. My mom never wanted children, never liked children, then she had children and loves us and is the best mom I could have hoped for. I guess we'll see what happens.
Ugh edit: that I'll *like* my kids.
well, that was my experience, too, if it means anything. i swore for years i didn't want children at all, then softened on that (slightly) when my oldest cousin had her first daughter.
in fact, i still am not a fan of other people's kids, and picking my daughter up from her daycare center still occasionally freaks me the hell out.
small children in large numbers = torture
my kid = the most amazing, beautiful, brilliant, hilarious, loving child in history. even when she doesn't brush her teeth.
Wow, as someone who does want kids, that article is INCREDIBLY offensive. Not all moms are the ones making breakfast... and honestly, I don't remember having breakfast made for me beyond cereal and milk, and my mom was a SAHM. Sound like the author bought into all those commercials for bereeakfast food that show a family sitting down to eat it together before the kids head off to school and the dad (and sometimes the mom) head off to work. That's TV world... not real life for many.
Gah! That is just a stupid article. Not only are childless women selfish, mothers are always not selfish, and always perfect. Does this author have no grasp of reality?
Its the audience that the writer is pandering to rather than his grasp on reality that's the problem.
People want a simple, shorthand means of deciding if someone is worthy. It's too much trouble to actually get to know someone first or to reserve judgement until you do. Far better to give them a simple and stereotypical way to make up their minds.
That article is hurtful in so many ways. Not everyone is childless by choice.
You said it more simply and elegantly than I did below.
Agreed! How insensitive was it for the article to not at LEAST mention this?
Being childless means I don't enjoy adult company? I thought that was one reason I made this choice.
haha, I know, that one made no sense.
I am, at times, all of those things.
But it has nothing to do with my child-free-ness.
I'm all of those things sometimes too. But I have a two-year-old. Maybe if I have another I'll become a paragon.
For what it's worth, I'm much more selfish with people who aren't my child since giving birth. I spend so much time and energy on him that I'm much more aggressive about protecting my remaining time and energy.
Ah, yet another balanced, intelligent and tolerant article from the Daily Fail.
I have to agree - as a woman who has never wanted kids, all I am interested in is partying, bitching and shagging as many 'male executives' as possible. I often wonder whether I am in fact a robot sent from the future, as I can't possibly be human if I don't want to reproduce myself! Furthermore because I don't want to gestate and raise a mini-me, this means that I am incapable of relationships generally, and have a body temperature a couple of degrees lower than those people who plan to pass on their genetic material.
Also, even though I get much more sleep than the average parent, I am still not more 'alert' than them - must be because of my defective child-hating brain and that bitter piece of black coal where my uterus should be! Or the fact that every night I booze the loneliness away (even though I'm not lonely, and I don't drink!). And yes, I'm terribly bitchy - I can't help it, it's because I've never felt that warm glow of morning sickness lighting up my life!
Nothing gets me more bitchy than competing for the attention of male executives, mind you - after all, what other reason is there to get a job? Certainly not for personal fulfilment, or for money, or any of those other piddling reasons! Nope - I just want to glitz up my alcohol-soaked bod every day in the hope that one of those dashing, dangerous testosterone-filled young bucks will glance my way and make my life worth living by impregnating- oh, wait.
/sarcasm
God, I'm so sick of this sentiment. I am childfree precisely BECAUSE I consider myself a humane person. Like you, the decision is one that I've known in my bones for almost my whole life. So why would I want to subject any children to my reluctant and lackluster parenting? There are so many better ways for me to improve the lives of the people around me (including the kids) than making some more. I care DEEPLY about children, which is why I'm not having my own.
Also, what the hell is up with these generalizations? Childless/ childfree people are perpetual hedonists? Moms never go after men (or women for that matter) in the office or show up hung over? Puh-leeze. Why the heck don't we just evaluate, you know, individual workers on their individual merits?
From the woman who brought us other such though thoughtful articles as:
"How hysterical mothers have driven men out of teaching"
"Good news: Women DO grow out of bitching"
"Beware the Queen Bee boss - she's hell to work for (and I should know, I was one!)"
"Why women are to blame for killing off the REAL men"
The Daily Misogynist is notorious for woman hating articles like this. Every day there is some article baiting women against each other. This right-wing rag is geared towards a less educated population anyway. This childless attacking attitude is one reason so many childless/childfree folks are so defensive and even hostile at times…most of us have run into more than one ignorant person like this in our lives. Fortunately, most of us realize that this woman is actually an anomaly in her vitriol and that there are just as many parents who support an individual’s right to choose their own life path. Sadly, there are still many parents who make backhanded acceptance remarks like, “Well, not everyone can handle the responsibility”, blah blah. I believe that if you are decent you will be decent and hardworking with or without kids. Her silly failed logic is almost comical. Having them doesn’t suddenly make you responsible and selfless….just look at all the child abuse cases out there! Not having them doesn’t make you stingy and cold hearted. Happy people don’t look to see what must be wrong with people who are different. Frankly, she seems bitter and possibly even overcompensating. Reasonable folks know that just because they love chocolate there are other perfectly normal, honorable people who like vanilla best. Different doesn’t equal bad and we all have to make our place in this world. I’m happy to be childfree and I want parents to be happy being parents.
Yeah, this is typical for the Daily Fail.
Best not to start any sentence with "According to the Daily Mail..." if you want to retain any sanity.
Why are childless women seen as selfish, while childless men are seen as normal?
The media constantly mocks Jennifer Aniston (who just turned 40), while the media swoons over George Clooney, who is almost 50, still has never married and has no children.
I cannot wait until I am 40 and everyone starts whispering about me, for my refusal to not have kids. It's gonna be AWESOME. Bring on the leers, sneers and jeers!
Jennifer Anniston is my age, and like me, she is single and has no children. I really identify with her when I read those sniping and patronizing headlines about her marital and maternal status. I HATE it.
Oh don't get me started on the Jennifer Aniston hate!
When her and Brad Pitt were ending their marriage the media and gossip just got so nasty it was ridiculous. People making comments about how it was because she refused to give him a baby or something like back because she wanted to focus on her career. Now, I have no idea why their marriage ended, the only people that know that are the two of them. But if two people want different things (like one wants kids and one doesn't) that's a reasonable reason to end a marriage I think. That doesn't make her a cold-hearted bitch. And she shouldn't have to have a baby for him. How insane is that? You should have a child because you both want one. Not to make the other person happy.
Ugh, I'll stop now. I literally could go on about this for hours.
They're making her into this sad old hag who wants babies but is 40 and single. Ugh. Tabloids also love a good catfight, and have been framing this whole Jen-Brangelina thing as "Jennifer vs. Angie," Pathetic Ex-wife vs. Hottie Husband Stealer. No one questions Brad Pitt leaving one for the other. But yeah, we have no idea why the marriage ended.
BTP, you are going to love it, once I turned 40 all hell broke loose ;-)
I am only 22 and I can already feel it brewing. Probably because I am adamant about getting a Ph.D. when more and more people I know in my age group are getting oohs and aahs about their engagements and the assumption that they will immediately start breeding. It's amazing how some people's reactions to news of my post-undergrad plans compare to my (female) peers who are getting married. "You're getting a Master's degree AND a Ph.D.? Why?" versus "OH MY GOD CONGRATULATIONS THAT IS THE BEST THING THAT COULD POSSIBLY HAPPEN TO YOU EVER YOU ARE ENGAGED!!!"
I'm not knocking marriage, of course. I just wish people close to me would give my budding dream career the same credit. And, what's worse, this is only marriage we're talking about. I can't imagine what people will say when I'm in my late 20s, freshly post-doc, when children become the big question. Though, as BROWN TRASH PUNK! said, I really can't wait :)
In my experience (I'm 26 and have a J.D.), people will eventually back off on the marriage and kids thing. "Are you dating anyone?" is no longer the first question I'm asked at get-togethers. (Although maybe they just learned to read my unhappy body language when asked that question.)
But the bottom line is that there will always be people who consider getting a ring on your finger and popping a baby out of your uterus to be more of an accomplishment than a doctorate degree. For me I just have to make sure that those are not the ONLY kind of people I surround myself with.
you know what's so damn frustrating? i had always planned to do graduate school, but not immediately after undergrad. so after undergrad, i got a job in my field, got pregnant, got married.....
....and all i got were questions about if i was ever going to go to graduate school.
i wanted to scream, "you know, i can fucking walk and chew gum at the same time!"
there's no way to win.
This is disgusting from any angle.
I had a friend once who was like this woman -- completely absorbed in the "classic" patriarchal view of herself and other women. She blamed her self-proclaimed insanity on her period (she did this very audibly once in a class, and sadly I was the only one scrambling to correct her), uses "bitch" in its typical use to refer to herself and other women exclusively, and once remarked to me that she couldn't wait to pop out a couple of kids so she would never have to work anymore. College was just "for fun" (bear in mind that she was coming from a background of near-poverty and paying for school herself by working two different jobs). She also regularly pointed out that all women combat each other and "that's just the way we're programmed."
What's funny is she was also a strong LGBT advocate (bisexual herself), a powerful speaker, and otherwise a very interesting, smart, and popular person. She will probably be an anchor on FOX News someday.
If it were later in the day, I'd toast to myself and all of you. CHEERS, fellow "bitches"!
Actually, it's exactly an "essential humanity" that has made me decide to be childfree. I consider myself way more humane than some of the mothers I have encountered, who would try to convince me otherwise.
And anyway, there are more choices than two: the diligent hard working mom who cooks and never parties, or the wanton skank who has nothing to live for except office gossip. What a horrible way to warp the facts!
Ha, I'm totally drunk, bitchy and weird, but not at work where I get things done. AND I'm childfree by choice. This is a hate screed by one of those angry types who either thinks childfree people are "getting away with something" or else can't wrap their head around the idea that someone doesn't live their life just like hers or fall to their knees at the sight of her offspring. I've encountered these things from both genders.
Wonder why she's an "ex"-boss. Discrimination suit filed by childfree and childless workers, perhaps?
I'll say it's insensitive. What is this assumption out there that single women of a certain age are career-minded harpies who chose not to have children? Many do choose not to have children without being career-minded or selfish or slatternly. And some of us would like to have, or (in my case) would have liked to have had, children but circumstances simply have not aligned for us, and we are not exactly tossing back shots to celebrate that.
It's so annoying to assume that all childfree women are single. I suppose she doesn't want to acknowledge the possibility that one can be childree and married (or in a committed relationship) since it would undermine a lot of her screed. The sad thing is if she had just written an article discussing the great things that working mothers can add to the workforce, it would be a nice article. Why the need to attack other women's choices?
Yeah, I really want to ask the author of the article why, in order to acknowledge the unique skills mothers bring to the workplace, she had to disparage non-mothers. Or how it makes any sense that, if mothers make good employees, then non-mothers are automatically terrible employees. Or vice-versa. Of course, I'm sure the author wouldn't be able to come up with anything other than more binary thinking. Granted, it is the Daily Mail, which has a storied history of printing anti-feminist, anti-woman hogwash.
Sigh, this is the crap that I have heard all of my life. Now that I'm in my forties I'm finally being left alone. Yes I have a uterus, no I never planned to use it. I knew at a very young age that I didn't want kids, and women have choices in this day and age. Leave us alone, we're not all cut out of the same cloth. I am so lucky that I met a CF man to share my life with...oh, and a cute doggy too!
Why does the media keep insisting on turning women of all stripes into enemy combatants in the Mommy Wars? She isn't helping ANYONE with this crap.
Exactly what 'research' is she pulling this from? I didn't see a single statistic. I call bullcrap. Let's face it, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Tom: Man, did you know Susan doesn't have kids?
Dick: No wonder she's so nasty and frigid. I bet she can't stand the idea of having to help another person.
Jane: Hey, sorry I'm late, my kid was sick. I'll be back in a second and we can get started.
Tom: God, what is it with these women and their children? Don't they realize you're supposed to keep your family life and your work life separate?
Dick: They're selfish, that's why, they just want to have it all.
(For the record, I don't think men alone do this. I think women have also internalized a lot of these ideas.)
Jane: Oh my god, did you hear Tom doesn't have kids?
Susan: That is so selfish! He's obviously a careerist who is only interested in himself and not at all concerned with anyone else.
Jane: Absolutely, doesn't he understand it is essential to his humanity to fertilize a woman's egg?
Dick: Hey, sorry I'm late, my kid was sick. I'll be back in a second and we can get started.
Susan: Did you hear that? He must have a horrible wife that she isn't at home taking care of the kids.
Jane: You're right, she's a horrible wife and mother. I bet she even wears shoes in the kitchen!
I want to reply to this, but I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me, so if I'm misunderstanding you, I'm sorry.
When I said that women have internalized attitudes, I meant that, as this article illustrates, some women will also judge women based on whether or not they have children in the workplace. (That is, I was trying to avoid saying it's just a male phenomena.)
I do agree that men face less discrimination in the workplace based upon whether or not they're married and have kids, though there are exceptions to this (like men who want to teach in elementary schools, and must prove their heterosexuality by being married, etc...). And I imagine men who decide to take paternity leave, etc... also face discrimination for stepping outside of the male/breadwinner, female/childraiser paradigm.
I, along with other readers have no clue what youre getting at? But if youre proposing that men face even equal discrimination at the workplace for not having kids, or having kids you have got to be joking.
I think the two people who made those "Conversations" are going towards the difference between how men and women are treated wen it comes to being childfree or having kids. I used to hear similar conversations among co-workers and classmates at my university. If a woman has kids and is late, she's a horrible person for not keeping the two seperate and not dedicating her life to her children. If she doesn't have kids, she's a horrible person who won't get along with others and will eat your head off. A man without children are sometimes treated in the same manner. I've seen men without children treated better than women without children. I've even seen the blame shifted to a woman saying she's being a bitch by not having his children. But a man with kids and he is late due to a child's illness, it's his wife/partner/girlfriend's fault.
"Dick: Hey, sorry I'm late, my kid was sick. I'll be back in a second and we can get started.
Susan: Did you hear that? He must have a horrible wife that she isn't at home taking care of the kids.
Jane: You're right, she's a horrible wife and mother. I bet she even wears shoes in the kitchen!"
I also dont get this. This still shows more discrimination against the woman and shows the previous claims to be more made up than anything actually seen in the workplace. If men receive discrimination for caring about their kids its only because its seen as inferior for a guy to do this in a patriarchy -of his own making-because it was the position relegated for women. If guys wanted to change it they could. Alot of the dialogue is believed only because its assumed the woman acts as the support for the man as if she had no life of her own. Being a career oriented guy is far more forgivable in society than a career minded mother or childfree woman. Its not offensive or discriminatory to the man to claim that isnt it bad that he doesnt have a proper 50's housewife at home. Thats actually offensive to the woman and oppressive universally to the female gender to have people with these kinds of views. If a guy spends incremental time with his kids then he's seen as superdad, while even if a woman has no life, is a housewife and doesnt work she's still seen as deficient towards her kids and husband and the reason her kids have any problems.
Wow...I lack "essential humanity" because I don't have children?
Whether a woman has children or not has nothing to do with whether she is a good work colleague. This is absolutely foolish.
This is so ridiculous and offensive it's laughable. It's just absurd. I think a lot of childfree women in here have made great comments about it already so I want to talk about how much this also negatively affects mothers too.
I am the mom of 2 little ones with another on the way (I JUST FOUND OUT TODAY! YAY!) and I absolutely loathe the idea that I am popping out kids because it is what I am supposed to do as a woman. It completely devalues the fact that I want kids because it is one of the things I am truly passionate about. I think I am a good mother and it's something I truly feel that I excel at. I hate the idea that I'm just doing what every other woman should do/does do, because it's bullshit. I take pride in being a mother and working hard at it. Society telling us that being a mom is just what is expected of us takes away the importance of the decision I have made to be a mother.
Every woman should feel pride about what they do with their life. No mother should be told that they are just doing the norm, and no childfree person should be told that they are weird for going against the norm. I think our society would be a whole lot better off if people were not pushed into roles that are meaningless to them. We should all be self-aware enough to realize our strengths and our weaknesses, and our likes and our dislikes. We should also all be free enough to follow those truths without being told by society that we are doing something wrong.
Isn't it strange that the act of getting married and having a family isn't really viewed as a lifestyle choice? The only choices we make are to be gay and kill babies.
I don't mean to offend those who choose to participate in parenthood or other traditional family structures, but I believe this kind of dribble is typically spewed from those who bought in to family life prematurely or against their true nature. They usually say something about our moral constitution; that we're irresponsible because we haven't taken upon ourselves this enormous responsibility that members of our society spend their whole life trying to attain in a perfect dynamic. They refer to childless and marriage-less people as children or teenagers, but for women the plight is even darker. We are either too unattractive to involve ourselves in the proper functions for the creation of a child or too cold to allow anyone in our sexual bubble. In the end, I believe when someone says something like the mothers, for a start, who are [not] going to turn up late and hung-over after a night on the razz; they'll have been up, dressed and alert for hours they really mean I wish I didn't have these god-forsaken brats so I could have got some motherfucking sleep last night.
I don't see myself ever getting married or having children, but I won't say that such a thing is impossible. However, I will say that I only drink on Friday and Saturday nights and I am never late for work. In fact, I am one of the most valuable employees in my office -- something I am constantly reminded of when I take appointments or do coverage when all the mothers or fathers have to leave for a broken leg or runny nose. Regardless, I never complain or cause a bitch-fest about it because I know that everyone needs a break and I respect the joy that children and family bring to the lives of my co-workers. More over, I am one of the most-liked employees in my office, and I have never not been invited to happy hour.
Don't worry - I'm not able to speak for all the marrieds or all the breeders, but you definitely didn't offend me. I totally agree with the point you are making. I CHOSE to get married, and later to be pregnant. Choices that are different than mine are no less valid, and shouldn't be less privileged.
And I do think that a lot of the "neener-neener, women who don't reproduce are cold and irresponsible unlike me, with my super-special offspring and my shiny house," comes from a place of insecurity about and dissatisfaction with one's choices. Some of my friends chose to be single, some are married. Some have started having kids, some are totally uninterested. I'm happy with my life and the choices I am making, and most of my friends seem to be pretty happy too. The only reason to act judgmental would be to cover for some perceived lack in my life.
It's amazing, when I was single I was able to get to work on time and do my job well, and then when I got married, I still managed to go out an party hard when the occasion called for it. Shocking!
I also object to the idea that you are either:
a. Healthy = able to have children
b. Unhealthy = unable to have children
As someone who had to have a radical hysterectomy I am both pysically healthy and unable to carry a child.
Never either/or people. Always also/and.
My mam thinks that having kids is one's duty to God. Imagine her shock when, aged 16, I told her I didn't want any. But that's beside the point. Wow, what an incredibly closed-minded article. And it has absolutely no basis in reality. Yes, there are bitchy women that happen to not have children. There are also bitchy women that do have children. Same applies to men with and without children. And married/unmarried. Clue-by-four needed over here!
can we please not assume that all childfree folks are getting great sleep, great sex/any sex, or have disposible income. or that parents are lacking the above.
I've covered this on my blog, but I want to bring up a few points here too, with some differnt bits and pieces. Pardon the partial cross-posting folks.
She doesn't actually make any valid points as to why child-free women can't be trusted. Just that we're "weird". Ah shit, hon' we fuckin' knew that already.
What really bugs me though - because her stuff is all the same tripe I've heard a ton of times before - is the use of the term "distrust". Somehow I can't be trusted. Not because I've been proven to be unscrupulous or incompetent. I can't be trusted because I am not using my ovaries and uterus to make babies.
Oh, hello there Biological Determinism, haven't seen you in a few weeks, how ya been?
Ummmm, Martha Stewart has a kid, Oprah Winfrey doesn't. There goes miss Daily Mail's theory right there, eh?
Anyway, like I said, it's the trust thing that bugs me. I can't take that. Mother's never lie? Puh-leeze. Maybe she's suggesting that we child-free (I'm NOT child-less, 'cuz I'm not missing a darned thing TYVM) are lying to ourselves about not wanting babies. After all, our ovaries make us want 'em right? That's the problem with people like this. We all must want what she wants and anyone who doesn't is lying to themselves.
Wait a sec... Did that blasphemin' harlot just call me a LIAR? Yep. She did. Sorry folks, but I ascribe to a faith that has "The Truth Against the World" as our motto. Calling me a liar is as insulting as it gets.
But hey, don't take it from me. After all I can't be trusted.
Cheers everyone,
Blue
"Much as I like to trumpet the importance of a woman's right to choose all things at all times, there's one choice I simply cannot understand: the choice of an otherwise sane and healthy woman not to have children."
Notice the ‘poisoning the well’ tactic here – your ‘otherwise sane and healthy’ comment clearly states that the choice NOT to have children must be insane and unhealthy as a foregone conclusion. Without actually having PROVED it at all, you present it as a given. Why? If YOU want or like something, assuming that you are sane (and judging from this article that is a BIG assumption), all other sane people must think the same as you? Quite a large logical fallacy here, and were are only on the first paragraph. Not very promising.
....
Yet if she says she hasn't a shred of maternal feeling in her, moreover, if she says she would prefer to concentrate on her career and that a child would only get in the way of it, then my head might acknowledge her right to do so. But my heart whispers: 'Lady, you're weird.'
So anyone who doesn’t like the same things as you is ‘weird’ by your book? And of course if she is ‘weird’ by YOUR book, she must be objectively really weird and damaged? And you are the one saying that OTHER people are the ones with the problems? Seriously? Archaeology is my life – that doesn’t mean that I need to expect that other people must want to be archaeologists too – and it doesn’t mean that I think that there is anything wrong with them if they don’t. I am confident and happy enough in my own self and path not to need to validate myself by negatively judging those who do not want to follow that path. It is a well known trope that those who are truly happy in what they do, do not feel the need to judge those who do not want the same thing.
It was welcome news, therefore, to discover this week that I am not alone.
Because if other people share the same delusion or bigoted idea, that makes it all OK? Would you say the same to those who are racist or homophobic? It is OK, because there are others who feel the same?
A stereotype being makes it no less bigoted.
As a result, it is these single-track careerists who are increasingly likely to be vilified, refused jobs and denied promotion because many employers believe them to lack what the study calls 'an essential humanity'. And I know exactly what they mean.
I’m sure you do – it is already pretty clear that you can’t look beyond your own choices and lifestyle to allow that others may also be valid.
And if that touch of 'essential humanity' - or its absence - colours such notably tough professions, it's hardly surprising that employers are starting to notice that the same applies across the spectrum of workplaces.
*Blinks* wait a minute – where exactly have you proven anything about lack of ‘essential humanity’? Did you drop a whole paragraph? The only mention you made was an idea held by some employers, and now you are trying to pretend that it is an established fact. You are trying to sneak in an unproven claim (a lack of humanity in those who don’t want kids) as a given fact. If you suggest that people who don’t have (or want) kids are less human you had better have something to support such an outrageous and offensive statement. How dare you.
Of course, we need not be silly about it.
Nobody wishes to see a female soldier in combat with a six-week-old infant in one arm and a rifle in the other.
Assuming that she even WANTS the kid.
....But most jobs aren't like that - and most children don't stay babies for long.
So what? Those who REALLY want to have kids will find a way to make it work, except for those hardest jobs. Therefore, those who don’t may NOT really want kids at all. Why is this such a shocking concept? Aside from the fact that YOU really like being a mother, and wanted to do it and were attracted to kids! Not everyone is the same as you. That does not make them wrong, damaged or faulty in some way. You are not the default for all women, and your personality is not the be all and end all for all women..
They're not there to compete for the attentions of the male executives;
And women who don’t have kids are? Going after men is connected to whether or not you are in a committed sexual relationship, not whether you have children. You are conflating SINGLE and childless – these are not the same.
...and they're there because they have mouths to feed other than their own and shoes to buy for someone else's feet.
So, I am not going to work hard because I am only paying my own rent, buying my own food and clothes and medications? If I don’t have kids, I can just live on air? Or does it just matter less if *I* eat and have a place to live?
Two-thirds of working mothers, a recent survey found, could not provide for the children they love in the manner they would wish if they lost their jobs. So there's incentive for you.
And if I lost my job, I couldn’t eat either – is that somehow less important? And I would have LESS access to public help, so I would be in WORSE shape. There is much less of a safety net for people without kids.
...
The prioritising that may baffle other people is a cinch for a woman who has spent years juggling a household. Negotiating skills? A request for 10 per cent off an overdue invoice is nothing to a woman who has had to broker a deal on Britain's Got Talent versus bedtime.
Because if you don’t have children, you don’t have a household? Are you seriously suggesting that a deal that could affect people's job security is LESS important than one kid's bedtime?????
When it comes to emergencies, if you have run all the way to a clinic with a terrified toddler vomiting down your neck then, trust me, a package delayed in transit is a piece of cake.
And again, emergencies only count (or exist) if they are baby related?
And if those are the tangibles, the intangibles - the 'essential humanity' - are more important still.
So? Are you saying that those without children don’t have ‘essential humanity’? Are you only allowed to get to be human after having kids? And does this mean that you don’t think your kids are really fully human yet?
You cannot be a mother without knowing something about selflessness, compassion, generosity, commitment, fierce loyalty and plain hard work.
Actually, you CAN very well be a mother and learn none of those things. Not a GOOD mother, but not all mothers ARE.
Note the unspoken implication that the women who don’t have kids do NOT have those things. This implies that the ONLY way to knowing something about “selflessness, compassion, generosity, commitment, fierce loyalty and plain hard work” is to have kids. I would love to see you back this up! Why do you have to have kids for any of the above? Yes, you can develop in those areas through kids, but there are countless other ways, not any less important or valid. People are either originally essentially decent in those areas, or they are not. If they are, they do not need to have kids to develop as a person.
You cannot - surely - be a boss and not value assets such as those in your staff.
But apparently only in those members of your staff who have a similar personal life to yourself? Or does the ‘good’ boss assume that only the people who have a similar personal life to her could have those good qualities? Funny, that sounds more like a BIGOTED boss to me. Do you have the same views of people who don’t have the same sexual orientation or religion as you?
...But, more than all the things we want, we actually need our children; they complete us as women, they are our light and our love and our legacy.
And so all other women need to feel the same? Who made YOU the judge of the entire gender? There is something wrong with me because I am complete as a person myself? Do you tell the lesbians that they are wrong because they don’t need a man to complete them? I have different lights, different lives and different legacies than you. You are not the basis for measuring the lives and interests of other people – you are not the default woman, and you have no basis for telling me what should complete me.
We feel desperately sorry for those who yearn for children they cannot have; the unwilling barren, if you will. But when we meet a woman who chooses her childlessness in the belief that there is something out there worth more, we smile politely even while - once again - our guts whisper: 'Lady, you're weird.'
Why? What have you proved here? Every single argument you make is flawed and based on unspoken assumptions and leaps in logic. First you say that you feel that someone who does not want the same as you is weird, just because they are not like you and you can’t understand it. Now here you present it as some sort of objective observation. You feel that they are weird because they are not you, and because of that they are weird.
So three cheers for the employers who are catching on, the ones who don't want to people their workforces with the cold, the calculating, the sad and the mad. The only question is: what took you so long?
And here you take it even further – now you feel free to insult me openly. How dare you impose your life on mine?
Each of the things you say here has not been even remotely openly or honestly addressed, yet alone proven. You have not once clearly discussed women who don’t want kids –instead you talk about mothers and their supposed characteristics. Apparently, that was supposed to imply that women who don’t want kids don’t have any of those characteristics. I guess by implying in a sneaky way you didn’t think that you have to support what you say. Mothers are ‘caring’ and ‘hard working’? Well apparently that is supposed to mean that non-mothers are not? Why? How did you make this point, let alone support it?
Cold? Where did you get this from? Why is not wanting what you want cold? You have never supported this in anyway. The same for calculating. Again no proof. Sad? According to whom? So now I have to be sad if I don’t have what you do, regardless if I want it or not? And MAD???? Here we really see your bigotry, and crazed narcissism straight out. You honestly think that if someone is not like you and doesn’t want to be like and live your life they must be crazy. If you ask me, THAT is the truly insane point of view.
I only drink in moderation and am only occasionally bitchy, but lazy and weird I gotta cop to. Oh, yeah, and selfish, too.
But I'm a good worker, dammit! Even without kids. I even enjoy my occasional two hour craft clinics with kids that I have to do for my job, so there!
Besides, being drunk, bitchy, lazy and weird seem like great reasons not to have kids.
Unless the unhinged writer thinks that having kids will change these traits for good and always...
It is gross and it seems unreal. But I gotta tell ya. As someone who is not having children or getting married - many people really do believe this. So sad but true. Best way to fight this?For the women w/o children to keep showing up and proving them wrong.
I love the support from the women who have and want children but it doesn't do anything to counter the actual perception. Keep showing up and keep our voices out there.
Stereotype upon stereotype upon stereotype!! This Daily Mail article was written by an actual woman?? A woman who must have surely faced some of these stereotypes herself? I have so many objections to her idiocy knocking to be let out of my head that I don't know where to start, plus I'm afraid that I'll be just as derogatory about someone or other if I try to counter her lame arguments because they are so extreme. Right, OK, take it as read that I think all types of women, whether they are mothers or not, just as capable and hard-working if that's how they act (obviously there will be workers who are lazy bums, who just happen to be women, the same as there are lazy bums who are men). The gender of the worker cannot dictate their value as a worker. It's nuts. This woman is nuts. Workers with children are given a lot of flexibility (in the UK) and this slack is often picked up by the childless workers. My husband tends to be sent away more on business than his colleagues who have children, precisely because he doesn't have children. Whatever she says can be countered by plenty of examples, although I'm sure there are hard-working mothers out there, I'm not doubting that.
A worker's ability has nothing to do with gender or parental status.
I hope someone didn't pay her for this nonsense?
I'm stupified...
Cold? Where did you get this from? Why is not wanting what you want cold? You have never supported this in anyway.
As best I am able to reconstruct this argument, you are saying that motherhood causes you to be warm and caring, and therefore, you have to be a mother to be warm and caring so then not being a mother means you have to be cold and uncaring. This is full of fallacies.
I could say that taking care of a big dog makes you warm and caring, but does that mean that people who don't want a pet, or who prefer cats are cold and uncaring?
And MAD???? Here we really see your bigotry, and crazed narcissism straight out. You honestly think that if someone is not like you and doesn’t want to be like and live your life they must be crazy. If you ask me, THAT is the truly insane point of view.