I do wonder in situations like these (and I am so sorry if this gets off topic rather than talking about what you'd intended for the discussion to be), how do we teach children about feminism, and of course, break in down into language that they'll understand.

I called home recently and was told that my niece had been beaten by a dog, so tongue-in-cheek, I asked if she wanted "Uncle Marc to fly home from Iraq to beat up the dog."

My 9-year-old niece then began to wonder aloud why "men always want to beat up things."

I took this as an opportunity to teach, and wrote her a letter about how boys and girls are expected by society to act differently. But in all, it seems so many of us discovered feminism at such a late age, I wonder how we as feminists can teach these values to the children in our lives without throwing out academic terms that will only confuse them in the end.

Thoughts?

But Miriam, don't you know you're just RUINING OUR CHILDREN??? http://www.feministing.com/archives/015527.html

Indeed a difficult scenario. We are all taught to only be comfortable with labels, and with people who neatly fit into them. The socialization starts immediately. Everything for children is separated into either girls or boys. I'm sure this girl's teacher starts off every morning with "Good morning boys and girls," and even little things like that can force the binary. Its definitely hard to know what to say.

I definitely prefer kids asking about me/my pronouns when I'm standing right there to the adult version. Once I was waiting for my bubble tea when a dude asked my friend--not five feet away--"Is it a boy or a girl?" (He ended up by saying "I like your style." The whole thing was creepy.)

As an educator, I'm actually a little wary about asking kids questions that put them on the spot about their own gender/sexuality, as I think your friend Alex's do. While it's one thing to have these conversations with family members or children with whom you're close, it's quite another to have them with strangers or students.

That is why I precisely hate kids so much and never plan on having any. Kids are so rude, horrible and just vile. As a Deaf child, I was mocked and teased by other children. I was also taunted by kids for my skin color, ethnicity and faith, too. It doesn't get any better in my adult years, either. I also remember when kids would taunt other kids for refusing to conform to heteronormative gender norms, too.

But reading your post, if I was you, I would have made a horrible face at that child for being such a brat.

I've had situations like this happen to me as well. Children can sometimes have trouble identifying me as a boy or a girl but adults rarely have a problem. I think this happens because children are often taught that girls have long hair and wear feminine clothes and boys have short hair and wear baggy clothes. I'm a curvy woman with a defined waist and large breasts. I also have short, almost crew cut hair and often wear men's clothes and accessories. While adults notice the biological female features, children sometimes miss them.

It's almost like societal norms for men and women are more important for identification than actual physical sex. I identify as female and don't see any so-called masculine presentation as going against my female sex. But I've been told so many times that I'm not a "real woman" or that I "should have been born a boy." I understand that there are many people who feel many different ways about their gender and what gender they are and want to be, but I have never felt that how I act and present is wrong for my biologically female body. It's weird that things I see as arbitrary like having short hair and carrying my wallet in my back pocket instead of a purse are seen as so strange for a woman that in some cases people respond in outright confusion.

I hope this isn't an incoherent mess.

Wow, this is an interesting and complicated question.

This is where it might be a good idea to adress "sex" and "gender." Sex usually refers to biology/anatomy. Of course this isn't always simply male OR female. Gender usually refers to the socialization process. This could mean how you were raised (parenting, culture, etc.) BUT also the choices you've made for yourself.

Usually when children ask "boy or girl," they mean biological sex (one of the first things kids get really interested in). This is just my opinion, but I think even if one identifies as genderqueer, you're not selling out if you answer "I'm a girl." Really, that's all the child wants to know in that sort of situation.

That said, if you have a relationship with a child, then you can explain it on a level that they understand. If a little girl is curious about a genderqueer woman, then that individual could explain that--"My body has girl parts just like yours but I act like a boy in some ways and a girl in other ways...but most of the time I'm just try to be a really good person."

Kids will get this. They can learn all the jargon and adult complications as they grow. Will adults understand this? That's the tougher battle.

This is a feminist/ womanist/queer issue most of the times. But, occasionally, people are mistaken for something or someone they're not.

Thanks for the thought-provoking post Miriam.

I imagine that transgender and intersex people experience this frequently. I long for the day when our society can move away from binary sex categories, and recognize that there are many kinds of people in the world.

When challenged on my feminism, my first recourse is to always ask, "What's the first question anyone ever asks about you? In your entire life? What's the first thing?" The minute you enter the world, half of your identity is decided for you. People base all of their purchases for your baby shower, your first birthday, your nursery, on your sex. People try to tell me that sex isn't that important, because they are usually cisgendered and heterosexual, so it's never been an issue for them.

Anyway, I think you handled the situation pretty well. You didn't reward her reticence, making her think it was okay to dehumanise you while you stood there right in front of her. That probably sounds a little harsh, but kids are pretty resilient.

In a way it's probably easier to explain to kids about being genderqueer in the same you can often explain to kids about same-sex relationships more easily (of course, when the child is a stranger, and meeting them is only brief, then it's not so practical to explain. Not to mention the way parents might react to their child learning something like that). On the one hand, children can be more susceptible to new ideas because they're a lot earlier in the learning process, but on the other hand it's often difficult to explain being genderqueer in a way that is reasonably simple.

Explaining things to adults can add so many extra complications, though, and often they're no better at understanding than children, if not worse. The last person I was in a relationship with reacted to my being genderqueer in a way that was very mild compared to how he could have reacted, but it still kind of hurt me. I told him before we were 'officially' in a relationship because I couldn't enter into a relationship without explaining it. He seemed to accept it just fine, but then a few days later told me he had hardly slept worrying about it and had been playing over all sorts of scenarios in his head, like what if I was 'really a man' (i.e. what if I had a penis) even though I explained to him who I was as clearly as I could manage (and he should have already been well aware that I was female assigned at birth because he knew I had problems with severe menstrual cramps). I expected that it would make him think about things he would probably rather not have, like how my identity affected the fact that he considers himself straight, but he kind of just made it all about him, and never really considered what I was feeling. In the end, it never quite felt like he had understood what I had told him, and I never shared with him when I was feeling especially uncomfortable about my body because I was afraid he'd say something in complete sincerity that would really hurt me, like the time he told me how extremely feminine he thought my body shape was.

I've never been in the position where I've had to explain my gender to a child, although I expect that to change once I start binding. I have been misgendered by people who thought I was a boy before, and I really enjoyed it even before I realised my own gender identity.

One of my best, closest friends is genderqueer. My son calls her Auntcle K-- (and the "her" is her stated preference in pronouns at this point). My son is only three and just starting to figure out some rudimentary understandings of gender, which is incredibly fascinating to watch. He just learned the sentence "I am a boy," and somehow knows that it applies to him more than "I am a girl," which he learned from the same place (a website about the ABC's). But I'm lucky enough to have an example to tell him about as he continues learning: some people are girls, and some people are boys, and some people are somewhere in between, like Auntcle K--. And as he gets older I can get into the more and more complicated concepts. I'm kind of looking forward to it, because I think he'll catch on quickly and do really wonderfully with non-binary thinking, and I'll get to have a small glimpse of a better future.

Thanks for this post Miriam. I usually have a pretty androgynous look, and I like it that way. That's my intent. I work a summer camp, and one of my favourite groups to work with are 5-8 years old. I'd prefer they learn to accept differences from me than not at all.

I think it's always difficult to see innocent kids talk about things they don't understand. No doubt the rudeness is simply due to ignorance. I don't blame the kids, I blame society and how we socialize everyone.

I have to admit, I've struggled myself with understanding transgendered individuals and can honestly say posts like these continue to enlighten me on the fluidity of gender. And I'm open minded and honest. What on earth are we supposed to do with the average, xenophobic, closed-minded American?

We have such a long way to go in educating the public and even our friends, family and neighbors.

Thanks for engaging me in the conversation with posts like this!

I once called an androgynous woman "sir" once, and the realized she was a woman. I was at work and she was a customer and I was ignorant of genderqueer, so I quickly apologized for mistaking her gender without even thinking of how she identified herself. I wonder how I can deal with that now? I wish our language had a neutral pronoun other than "it". One that is a little more human.

One of the things I hate about the English language is that there's no gender neutral pronoun, which makes it more necessary to keep the gender binary. And it does create the rather awkward situation of meeting someone and needing to know which gender they identify as. I have a male friend who's a teenager and looks very young and dresses very androgynously. People often mistake him for a girl, which bothers him. I always dress fairly "girly" so I've never that problem, but if I ever wanted to wear male clothing I could easily be mistaken for a guy as I'm very tall and flat-chested. My features aren't exactly "delicate" either.

I wouldn't be offended if that happened, but then again you don't know how other people would react in that situation. Though, an interesting question for people who are genderqueer, how would you want someone (child or adult) to act if they were talking to you (or about you) and didn't know what gender pronoun to use? Would asking be offensive?

I hope I haven't offended anyone. Sometimes I do worry when I'm talking about things I don't understand.

Hi there.
I just registerd to this page so I could comment on your piece, which raise a lot of interesting questions and thoughts.

The first I though about was how to seize the moments as they arrive. Talking to a strangers child, on the pavemnt about gender, or anything else for that matter, can get you in trouble hehe. But having worked in a primary school, and at an afterschool program for a year, I have discovered both the joys and the pitfalls of of discussing things with kids as the oportunity arises. (mostly with 6-8 year olds)

my first hard question came from a very bright eight year old wondering what a sweatshop is and how is was linked to her favourite clothes brand, (followed by a lot of hows and whys), why using the word homo as slander is not cool, ofcourse boys and girls can be just friends, yes two girls can be girlfriends, and that vearing just black does not make you a satanist, and if you want to know why the new boy working here is wearing maskara why dont you go and ask him nicely?

and I can tell you, living in a conservative norwegian town does not make these popular topics with many parents and some teachers...:P

Luckily I had a cool boss who had the philosophy that children need to learn that people are different, and so does their parents.

Most questions children ask do come out of curiosity and inexperience, not malice, although we as adults might find it unsetteling when they point at people and shout WHATS THAT? WHOS THAT? or WHY THeY DOING THAT FOR?

I think the dads response was a nice one, asking the kid to ask you, making you a person to interact with instead of something just to stare and point at, at the sime time not making assumptions.

Some parenst arem too quick to shush kids questioning, which makes it even more mysterious I guess, or make inquiiring feel wrong.

Often the best way to start a dificult topic with children, is as some has suggested already, is to ask them what they believe? why do they think that is so? does it have to be this way or that? and give ones points and experiences as one goes along. Much in the same way as i wish to have conversations with adults.

I also wanted to share a similar story to miriams. After moving to scotland three years ago, I shaved half my hair, so rightside was baldylocks, and the other half long blond and curly, usualy made up in a plaid.

One day I was on my way camping in the woods, and stepped off the train with a large rucksack, boots, combats, black singlet and shades. A wee boy and his dad came off the train at the same time, to the left of me. The kid loocked up and me and said in wee glaswegian:

"daddy, daddy shes a soldier daddy, shes a soldier!"

I smiled to myself, as i passed them, the kid ended up on my left side, when he looked up again at my short hair and promptly said:

"Daddy! its a boy, its a boy." and daddy gruntled, "no, that's a lass". I smiled at the kid and said I was indeed a girl, where upon he hid behind his dad, propably just surprised that I had adressed him directly.

I thought the whole thing was quite funny. certain adults how ever can be horrible when it comes these questions.

Ok..that was long, and was my firt ever post on the forum. Cheers for sharing your story. Its always odd when one get the moments you described like:

"Afterwards, while biking home, I contemplated what would I say to this kid if I could actually explain."

Thank you for your post Miriam! One of my best friends is genderqueer, and while I've never had a problem with her changing gender identity, I remember being a child with very strict ideas of what it means to be a girl and what it means to be a boy (I had very short hair as a child, and a boy once asked if my name was a girl's name or a boy's name, I guess because he assumed short hair was for boys only. I was so upset. You can bet that the first time I got control over my own hair I grew it long. Of course, I've now gone back to short hair :P)

I think it's important that we have these conversations as adults, and important that parents and teachers educate children about the fluidity of gender. Of course, kids and adults are always going to want to box people into neat categories because it makes life easier for us, but we don't have to let that happen. I look forward to reading your series about gender!

This happens to me a lot. I also get teenagers and adults asking me this question in a hostile manner. This is very different, I think, from honest curiosity, but there have been time when kids have asked me what gender I am and I can't remember that they honestly are trying to figure it out.

It really is strange that asking "Are you a boy or a girl?" can be an extremely hostile question depending on the person doing the asking. I have thought about sincerely asking kids whether they are a boy or a girl when they ask me, but I am worried that without intending anything negative, I will come off as hostile towards them (the same way that their questions sometimes feel hostile towards me).

This issue is very difficult for me to unpack because part of me wants to be OK with navigating through the world as a gender-ambiguous person. And the other part of me wants it to be very clear that I self identify as a woman with a gender-ambiguous presentation. I often feel offended that other people don't perceive me correctly and feel angry that they are trying to shove me into one of two boxes. But then, on the other hand, I think that the identity I feel is very difficult to clearly present so I'm not sure I can justifiable blame people for not getting.

...I just wish that they didn't express their not getting it with real hostility and anger towards me.

One of the first things that annoyed me about the English language was the fact that there were gender-specific pronouns.

One of the reasons I love my native Persian language is that it does not have male of female pronouns. If you want to specify a gender you have to use the term man/woman/girl/boy.

I LOVE IT and I hope it doesn't ever change.

I was one of those kids... asking a lot of inappropriate questions to my parents about people, in front of the people I was asking about.

I hope I didn't hurt people's feelings. I have a hard time understanding social cues, and especially as a child, I did not understand the concept of tact.

May I please ask if it is inherently distasteful for an adult to ask a person how they identify in terms of gender, as long as the question is presented respectfully?

The reason why I ask, is that because I am a heterosexual, cisgendered (I learned that word here last week!) individual, I don't want to make another person feel like I am in judgment of them.

On the other hand, I want to be able to respect the other individual's identity, and be able to address them in the way they feel most comfortable.

What would be the best way, if any, to approach such a personal topic?

Thank you for posting, Miriam.

This might be an overly simplistic story, but last year I was a volunteer at the LGBTQ People of Color Health Summit (I was invited by a friend.) I'm white, hetero, married and brought my conservative mother from Iowa to the event. She had many questions on "boys" & "girls" "Does she have a penis then?" "Well, did he have breasts? Can she get pregnant?" By the end of the weekend, she has met so many funny, honest, lively and beautiful people that she stopped asking. The attendees, from social organization execs to transmen and transwomen sex workers starting calling her "mom" and asking about her knitting projects she was seen working on. I don't really feel like any of these questions matter anymore when you just love a person. And the only way to grow to love a person is to stop asking to begin with and just open your heart.

When I feel really comfortable, I might ask a VERY good friend a question or two, but generally speaking I just don't care about the "mechanics" or particulars. She/he is someone I hang out with, go to the movies with, talk about politics, bake cookies and ride bikes. And once, when at the park, a little girl I knew came up and asked me, "Is your friend a boy or a girl?" and I answered, "You got it right! T is my friend."

Has anyone else read Aaron Raz Link and Hilda Raz's co-written book What Becomes You? There's a heartwrenching scene where a little girl asks Link if he's a boy or a girl, and he responds by asking her what she thinks. She guesses girl, and Link says that he says yes because he just couldn't stand to disappoint her--because it was so clear that she wanted him to be a girl like her because she liked him. That story just left me in tears. (It's a really smart book--I highly recommend it.)

I have been a frequenter of feministing for quite some time, and this is the first post that I have felt compelled to react to within the community and outside of my own head. I think that this original post (thanks Miriam!) is so full of so many interesting aspects and questions.

However, what I find to be most interesting and I wish a dialogue was more clear regarding people's thoughts, is in regards to what the parent should actually say to the child.

I desire to be as educated and aware of all aspects of society. And one of the responsibilities that I take very serious is a wholesome (in the complete sense and not the Leave it to Beaver sense) raising of my future children. I am assuming that everyone within this community feels the same. So what do we say to our future or current children in these situations? What is the best way to approach these situations? Hoepfully since day one there is an open and healthy dialogue about sexuality and gender, but how is a "good" parent actually supposed to tackle this situation? I am hoping for honest advice from people living lifestyles other than my own that can prove to be helpful.

Thank you so much everyone for this discussion!

I have been a frequenter of feministing for quite some time, and this is the first post that I have felt compelled to react to within the community and outside of my own head. I think that this original post (thanks Miriam!) is so full of so many interesting aspects and questions.

However, what I find to be most interesting and I wish a dialogue was more clear regarding people's thoughts, is in regards to what the parent should actually say to the child.

I desire to be as educated and aware of all aspects of society. And one of the responsibilities that I take very serious is a wholesome (in the complete sense and not the Leave it to Beaver sense) raising of my future children. I am assuming that everyone within this community feels the same. So what do we say to our future or current children in these situations? What is the best way to approach these situations? Hoepfully since day one there is an open and healthy dialogue about sexuality and gender, but how is a "good" parent actually supposed to tackle this situation? I am hoping for honest advice from people living lifestyles other than my own that can prove to be helpful.

Thank you so much everyone for this discussion!

This exact topic has been on my mind a lot lately. I work at a gourmet grocery store and twice lately little children have asked me if I am a boy or a girl in front of their parents. And both times the parents just stood there looking at me like "well...what are you going to say?" While I may not be the most feminine girl in town aside from my shortish hair I am also pretty clearly a girl.

The thing that bothers me the most is not that the children ask because I get that...it's that the parents don't say anything. My parents taught me that questions like that to complete strangers are rude. I still believe this to be the case. I would expect that at least one of these parents would apologize for their children being rude.

I agree that it is a good way to educate children when they ask questions like this. I think that is an important lesson worthy of time and attention. But it a good opportunity for the PARENT not for me the complete stranger.

"Being called "it" didn't feel too good..."

Whilst people are taught that epicene (singular) "they" is incorrect (although it has been used by authors such as Shakespeare and Jane Austen) there are few other options.

We have moved past the use of "he" as a generic term, and the only other gender neutral (neuter) pronoun in recognised English is "it".

Now, as it happens I (someone who is TG, speficially anti-gender) prefer to be referenced by the pronoun "it", because the word is accurate, but I know that almost all gendered people (be they transsexual or cissexual) dislike it, and I am not entirely sure why.

I work a summer camp, and I present myself pretty androgynously, though I identify as female. When I am asked, "Are you a boy or a girl?" I always say, "What do you think?" and almost always get very charming answers.

Last summer, I worked with three different groups of 7- to 9-year-olds. One was a mixed group of boys and girls, one was almost all boys, and one was all girls. I got the most questions from the mixed group, fewer from the boys, and none whatsoever from the girls. The girls' camp was a science camp for only girls, and all the counselors and teachers were girls, too, so perhaps for that reason they didn't have to ask.

One interesting thing happened in the mixed group, though. There was a child named Lily in a different group who dressed, looked, and acted like a typical 10-year-old boy. Lily's mother used the pronoun "she" to refer to her child, but the others kids told me that Lily used the boy's bathroom. I wish I'd gotten to know Lily, but she wasn't in my group. A couple of the kids decided to come gossip to me about Lily and how they thought it was weird that she used the boy's bathroom and looked "like a boy." I don't remember exactly what I told them, but I think I said that it was rude to talk about people behind their backs and that it was okay for Lily to wear whatever Lily preferred. I wondered how Lily's group counselor handled it.

Anyway, I love talking to kids one-on-one about gender. I've only had one kid be outright rude to me. All the others seem genuinely curious. One little boy, after I asked him what gender he thought I was, said, "I think you're a tomboy." I thought it was cute, because he asked me the binary question (boy or girl) but then went outside the binary in his own little way with his answer.

As a parent of two children around this age, I've seen lots of these conversations with other children and my own about things that get outside overly simplistic worldviews. (My kids tend not to have overly simplistic worlviews... but that's another story.)

I've found that generally speaking, as long as everybody is respectful, they tend to come out just fine.

I think its very good of the father to try and get his daughter to ask you herself. I think it shows he doesn't have any problems with you looking differently from the norm and that he is trying to educate his child to also be respectfull of that.

If the father (or mother) would have chosen to ignore the question, or do something like "its a girl, now come here and dont ask such questions" it would, imo, show an inability to deal with people who are different and teach the daughter to be weary and divisive towards 'others'.

props to the dad imo.

This comment has been deleted because it violated our comment policy.

Ideally, if truly wholesome parenting is what you have in mind your child will already have encountered the idea of genderqueer people who aren't men or women, boys or girls before they see someone on the street with an ambiguous gender presentation.

You don't need to wait to tell your child about people like us until they're confused on the street. When put on the spot like the father in Miriam's story was, I think telling the child to ask the person is a fairly ideal response, and if there's no opportunity to ask talking about how you can't know how someone prefers to be addressed without asking--a good way to emphasize the importance of respect in general. But since you're thinking about these issues before becoming a parent, why not incorporate the existence of genderqueer and other trans people into your child's experience of the world early on?

It seems like biology has a bad reputation here, and it's unfortunate. I was always taught that sex has three aspects - genotype (XX, XY, XXX, XXY, etc.), phenotype (primary and secondary sex characteristics), and gender (the spectrum from "feminine" to "masculine" as defined by a culture). My profs always stressed that genotype and phenotype don't necessarily match up, and that gender is socially constructed but may be influenced by genetics (eg. high testosterone levels are generally associated with more aggressive behavior, which some cultures would consider "masculine" behavior).

Basically, I've never heard a (modern) biologist use the term "biological sex" in the sense of the XX/XY binary. It seems like non-biologists like to construct straw man arguments using this term to belittle the field of biology.

Sorry if I'm derailing...

Great post.

I would love to see and even contribute to any new developments in the discussion on genderqueerness. I've always been fascinated about the role language(or languages) plays in a society's understanding, consturction, and disposition of genderqueerness, and the linguistic, thus humanistic limbo any intersex/trans/queer people are put into, case in point by being dubbed "it" (our pronouns and language are soo lacking, a thorough, modern and comparative study would be an amazing contribution to this subject).

I'd also love to see this topic not limited to the US, or the "West" ... let's do a subject aimmed at understanding and inclusiveness the justice it deserves by being as inclusive as possible, seeking information and perspectives from all over the world, not just the US. I say this bc I can list on one hand the number of "prominent" trans-activists on the entire continent of Africa, which is a fascinatingly small number for such an enormous issue.