Samantha Orobator, a 20-year-old British woman faces death by firing squad for allegedly carrying 1.1 pounds of heroin into Laos. To make matters worse, she is pregnant. Doctors attest that she must have been impregnated after her capture; Orobator's mother fears that she was raped in prison. CNN has more.
Amnesty International has some crucial background information on Laos and its ongoing human rights violations, mostly involving the persecution of indigenous people and censored media. On prison conditions:
Lack of access by independent human rights monitors prevented an accurate assessment of the number of political prisoners and prison conditions, but reports continued of ill-treatment, lack of food, overcrowding and inadequate medical care.
While Orobator is not a political prisoner, I think we can surmise that she is not receiving adequate medical treatment, especially in terms of maternity health. The fact that she's young, female, and a woman of color indicates that the injustice she's enduring is likely colored by the Laos government's long history of race-based and gender-based oppression.
Contact human rights group Reprieve, who is trying to make sure that Orobator receives a fair trial and that her right to bodily integrity is protected.
Thanks to multiple readers for the heads up.
UPDATE: Orobator will not be executed, but will she receive a fair trial?
0 TrackBacks
Listed below are links to blogs that reference this entry: 20-Year-Old Pregnant Woman Faces Death by Firing Squad in Laos .
TrackBack URL for this entry: http://www.feministing.com/cgi-bin/movabletype/mt-tb.fcgi/13501
I just read at CNN that she will NOT be executed because she is pregnant thanks to Reprieve's efforts. But still, this is horrible. And why are they executing drug smugglers? I don't understand that at all.
Yeah, I was just about to say. On CNN there's an article saying she will NOT be executed. But you're right- why are drug smugglers being executed? Carrying drugs into a country isn't equated with death, right?
There are one or two dozen countries for which drug smuggling carries the death penalty. Iran, Singapore, Laos, China and Vietnam (off the top of my head) all do.
Brian,
Laos is the world's second largest EXPORTER of heroin and other opiate products.
Obviously, the folks who run the Laotian heroin trade are not being prosecuted.
Iran is also a major exporter and transshipment point for drug exports - again, the big time drug traffickers there are not being prosecuted.
I suspect the harsh penalties only go to the small timers who try to be slick and fail to pay off the police in those countries.
The big boys, who cut a side deal with local law enforcement and put a few bank note stuffed envelopes in the right palms go unpunished.
How is any of this obvious??? You know big time Laotian drug dealers aren't being prosecuted how? You know the same about big time Iranian drug dealers how?
You're apparently correlating export status with prosecutions...but that would make as much sense as looking at Mexico, saying its the primary distribution point of drugs into the US, and then saying, "Obviously they aren't prosecuting big time drug dealers." Heck look at the US demand for drugs and you could make the argument, but that would be an inaccurate inference.
I've worked in prison reform in Africa, and without further information I kind of doubt that any mistreatment in prison was linked to her gender or race. From what I've seen, prisoners are universally treated badly (including rape). Often, in fact, women are treated better simply because there are many, many fewer of them in prison.
The death penalty for drug smugglers isn't unusual in many parts of the world, but I agree that it's horrific.
Because... Laos is in Africa? Huh?
[trigger warning]
Palisades
First, Laos is in Asia - Southeast Asia to be specific it is bordered by China to the north, Vietnam to the east, Cambodia to the south and Thailand and Myanmar to the west.
Americans should know very well where Laos is - out government fought a secret war there for 13 years (1962-75], and dropped 4 million tons of bombs on them.
Second, Laos is a very racist country - notorious for it's discrimination against ethnic minorities, in particular the Hmong.
Also, there is fairly widespread anti Black racism in East Asia - mainly focused on African immigrant businesspeople who've come to the region in recent years.
Between the general high level of racism in Laos and the existence of specifically anti Black racism in the region and the widespread sexism and sexual abuse culture aimed at women prisoners throughout the region, it is almost certain that Samantha Orobator was the target of Laotian police racism - and it's virtually 100% certain that she was raped in custody.
The very fact that she was arrested bringing heroin into Laos should be mute testimony to the racial profiling going on - Laos is the world's second largest exporter of heroin and has been for almost 50 years.
Hmm...Americans should know where Laos is because the government fought a SECRET war there from 1962 to 1975.
First- If it was a SECRET war, how would Americans know?
Second- How do you know if Palisades was alive then? That SECRET war ended 34 years ago. I, for one, and I'm sure many others on this site, was definitely not even a glimpse in my parents mind in '75- they weren't even engaged yet.
-Just point out a flaw in your argument. It's best not to assume and blame.
Sorry, I guess I should have been clearer - I wasn't suggesting that Laos was in Africa (though I am not American, nor was I alive when that war was fought)), I just wanted to give some context on prisons in the developing world (which I realize is a big place, but problems like overcrowding and sexual assault in prison tend to be pretty consistent).
So, you don't know anything about prisons in Laos, or race/gender relations in Laos, but you feel confident that race and gender played no part in this story in spite of evidence to the contrary presented by people who do know about Laos.
What point are you trying to make exactly, and why are you so threatened by the mere idea that sometimes women or black people are singled out for torture? Accepting that this situation does exist does not negate any other situations you are aware of involving men.
That's really interesting. It does seem that prisoners universally are treated badly without taking into account their gender or race. But it seems, at least from what I've read and whatnot, that women are really mistreated in prison systems.
Regarding a fair trial. Seeing how Laos does have a long history of race and gender-based violence, it wouldn't be a surprise if she didn't receive a fair trial.
Also, according to the CNN article, "the country's criminal law prohibits courts from sentencing pregnant women to death..." How then was she even sentenced to death by firing squad?
I hope she receives adequate medical care throughout her trial.
Everyone should read the story on CNN, it's very interesting. And sad.
Is it possible she was sentenced to death before she became pregnant? I mean, since she became pregnant after being imprisoned that's possible, right? And is it just that her execution is put off until after she gives birth? Or she cannot be executed at all now?
But I still can't believe that execution is the punishment for drug smuggling in any country. I think that is insane and just horrible.
The mandatory sentence for people found carry that many Kg of heroin was death. (Of course a hundred or so less Kg and you can live.)
It occurs to me that rather than rape, Orobator may have agreed to sex to get pregnant in order to delay execution long enough to be rescued. Transculturally guards have been known to use that method as a way to exploit female prisoners for sex. Either way not what I'd call a choice.
Being compelled to have sex in order to avoid execution does not meet my litmus test for consent.
No, mine either in the wider scheme of things, but probably it's the lesser traumatising scenario for her Mother to deal with. Some women have escaped the death sentence by smuggling in sperm when they were in solitary confinement, although I sadly suspect that is not the case here.
It gets tricky in other situations though - I know of women who have got pregnant to avoid prison, although admittedly not in the face of execution.
Let's hope that she is free and safe soon.
Yeah, that confused me as well. They say she's going to be given a trial (will it be fair?)... I don't know. The story's very very confusing to me, actually. I hope she gets a fair trial. I'm wondering about the whole pregnancy thing though. I think the article said that she was pregnant before being in prison, and some think that she got pregnant while in prison possibly through rape (mainly Reprieve, the org. fighting for her). I don't know... Tis sad
And you're right... The death penalty for drug smuggling IS really insane. I wonder how that would go over in Jamaica, and people smuggle drugs into Jamaica all the time.
So, I was reading this article on Mail Online, which I guess is the online version of the UK's Daily Mail. Anyway, a lot of commenters on the site said that the death penalty for smugglers was the only way. Yikes! It's scary that some people really think that's the answer... Sad
I was really confused about how she could have been sentenced before her trial, too. But after reading the CNN articles, it sounds like she hadn't actually been sentenced, but that death by firing squad was the usual punishment. So she was facing death by firing squad, but hadn't actually been sentenced. At least, that's what I think is going on.
The Drug War....
Yes, this is absolutely horrific, not only for the conviction but also her treatment in prison.
Not to detract from the subject, but there is a serious problem with imprisoning people for drugs even here in the United States. The problem with drugs is that there are underlying social problems which lead to drug dealing and addiction whether is it socioeconomic stress/inequality or mental illness. Either way, while I do not support large drug cartels which operate like the mafia, I feel that individuals need to be treated differently under the law.... everywhere.
The drug war has failed and has only increased organized crime, not to mention increasing usage and addiction.
Is Samantha Orobator going to get a fair trial?
NO.
First of all, she's not Laotian, she's Black. That's a strike against her, in a part of the world where there's been a recent sharp uptick in prejudice against Black immigrants - in particular, people with roots in Nigeria, the country where Samantha Orobator was born and where her father still lives.
Also, she has been denied an attorney.
The Laotian government has refused to appoint a Laotian lawyer for her, and a British lawyer appointed to represent her by the UK government has been denied access to her.
Even if she had an attorney, the Laotian legal system (like the legal system of it's former colonial ruler, France) operates under presumption of guilt - that is, if the cops arrested you, they assume you are guilty and you have to prove your innocence.
That would be hard enough for a native born ethnic Lao man - but for a non Lao who happens to be Black, a foreigner and a woman, it's much harder.
Also, in a country where the large scale organized export of heroin is the major industry, it's always very dangerous to be perceived as an independent who might be trying to compete with the gangsters who are the major dealers in the area.
In many drug exporting countries, the local police are de facto enforcers for the major dealers, using narcotics prosecutions to suppress competition.
Also, the correctional facility she's being held in, Phonthong Prison in Vientaine, the Laotian capital, is described by a woman who was a former inmate as a "torture camp" where physical and mental torture are practiced, prisoners are frequently put in medieval-style stocks, and where housing and medical care are substandard.
Laos has not carried out an execution since 1990 - which is truly odd, because if heroin trafficking is a death penalty offense in Laos, how come they haven't executed anybody for it in at least 19 years, during which time Laos was the world's second leading heroin exporter?
It's truly strange that they're going after a Black woman who allegedly tried to IMPORT a kilo of heroin into the country (which, quite frankly, would be like bringing sand to the Sahara desert) - but the Laotian men who EXPORT hundreds of metric tons of heroin go unpunished.
Actually, very few Laotians ever even leave the country. They are a very insular country, and border control is extremely strict. I don't know where you get your data on Laos being the second largest exporter of heroin, but having been there, I saw no evidence of drug use, and I would suspect there's more drug use in NYC than in the whole country of Laos. The Lao people are interested more in finding their next meal than in getting high.
The "golden triangle" of northern Thailand, Burma and Laos, famous during the Vietnam War era, has been largely cleaned up through the efforts of the King of Thailand. Strawberries and citrus trees and rice fields have replace poppy fields.
And substandard housing and medical care? That's EVERYWHERE in Laos, not just in prisons.
This broad generalization that Laotians discriminate against blacks is said with a great deal of certainty but not citations. Is there any stats/info you have to share with the community on this? Discrimination against the Hmong is well known, but not against blacks.
Also, I can imagine that a country like Laos would probably penalize people importing drugs into the country more harshly than they do people exporting them. This would be much the same as the US punishing people who import drugs/weapons into the US more harshly than those who export them. Witness Mexico's complaints about gun exports from the US...If laws are primarily about safeguarding your own, then that's not an unreasonable position.
I've been to Laos, a western woman traveling alone, and felt completely, utterly safe there. The police presence there was barely detectable. Laos is a poor, beautiful, peaceful and largely Buddhist country. This article is sensationalism at its most sensational.
All around Laos you see signs: "Don't use or carry drugs, you will be arrested." This woman was really really stupid if you ask me. Idiotic, in fact. It's not like she didn't know. As the saying goes, "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime." Any stupid Westerner who travels halfway across the world and ignores the rules of the place she travels to deserves what she gets.
Just because her mother fears she was raped in prison, doesn't mean that she was. It does put her in a more favorable light, though, doesn't it, if she got preggies not from her own willing actions.
I wonder how many commentators on this blog have been to Laos.
"Any stupid Westerner who travels halfway across the world and ignores the rules of the place she travels to deserves what she gets."
I'm sorry but what a horrible thing to say. No one should be executed for doing drugs, smuggling drugs, hiding drugs, or any other non-violent crime. That is absurd.
And to say things like "she got preggies" makes you look like a real woman's advocate. *eyeroll*
This is a horrifying attitude.
Look. I have not been to Laos, but this idea that it's all bad (which I don't believe is what other commenters are saying) or a land of peace and harmony are both wrong. Duh. Obviously there's probably wonderful things about the country, and as seen here, horrible parts.
Honestly? She deserves death? For drug smuggling? Put yourself in her shoes, for God's sake.
Semolina, I gotta back you up on this one. If you travel to another country and willfully disobey their laws, you have to deal with the consequences. I'd like to feel worse for her, but she wouldn't be in this pickle if she wasn't (allegedly) caught illegally smuggling drugs, would she? I don't have special sympathy because she's a woman...it would be just as bad and just as scary if it were a young man being held in such conditions, but let's face it...
If you travel to a Third World country where you know people are having to scrap and scrape every day to get by and the laws are equally harsh and in many cases, severe and draconian--why would you go and do something stupid like that and then cry about it? I don't think we should go ahead and start executing drug dealers and smugglers in the US, but if that's the law there, and that's the consequence their law dictates, then that's her problem.
If she's INNOCENT, then yes, this is a horrid thing...but what if she's guilty? Should we feel worse for her b/c she's a woman and hold her to a different standard and treat her differently because of her gender? Would you feel so sympathetic to a 20 yr old male defendant who could be getting beaten, raped, and denied medical care in prison just the same?
I think we need to remember that people smuggle drugs for a number of reasons, not just because they are stupid.
In many cases people are involved in drugs in their home country and coerced by those higher up the drug food chain to do the smuggling. If they owe money or have their families threatened, then smuggling drugs may seem like their only option.
I don't claim that this is what has happened for Samantha, but I wanted to bring up the idea of coercion to add another perspective to the issue aside from 'stupid westerners'.
I would feel bad for anyone receiving this punishment regardless of gender because being putto death for a drug related offense is what I call cruel and unusual punishment.
And since when did Feministing become a place where we just sat around upholding stupid laws and shunning those that fell victim to them? Especially laws that mostly pray on the lower class? No. We challenge those laws and why they are in place. We call out how ridiculous they are and how unfair they are. We don't just sit there and say, "Well they knew the law and were stupid to break it. Too bad for her. She deserves to die." I'm frankly sickened to my stomach at those comments.
THANK YOU llevinso. I totally agree!
I think its easy to sit back here in America, wrapped warmly in our Western ideals, penal system, and law enforcement and opine about unjust criminal justice systems overseas. Sometimes that's justified...but sometimes its not.
As someone who opposes the death penalty in all instances here in America, I'm not certain that I'd oppose it if I was a Mexican facing the sustained drug violence they do. Why would I expect the same law enforcement/criminal justice procedures that work here to work in Mexico, or Colombia? Countries are entitled to pick the system that works best for them. I arrive at my opposition to capital punishment from a Christian perspective, I can't hardly expect a secular humanist here, nor a Buddhist in Laos to share that opinion. As are you, they're entitled to their own opinion.
I travel overseas extensively & I think Westerners have a special obligation to respect the laws, customs and culture of the places they visit. She knew the risks she was taking. She's obliged to face the consequences, or just not go.
Good for you cattrack, speaking up for a system that executes the poor and the powerless and enables the wealthy to prosper. You're taking the high road with this one.
What powerless??? There's no reporting that she was forced into this, or framed. I don't condone her apparent rape. God help her, I have no illusions she's being treated well.
Unfortunately her sentence was a known risk she willingly took. If you know of any reporting that suggests otherwise please share.
Way to completely not address the point I raised in my OP.
"I think its easy to sit back here in America, wrapped warmly in our Western ideals, penal system, and law enforcement and opine about unjust criminal justice systems overseas. Sometimes that's justified...but sometimes its not."
Wow. Just wow. So if serious human rights abuses are taking place elsewhere we're supposed to sit back and feel peachy keen about it. This woman did not kill somebody or hold up a bank. Yes, she allegedly broke the law, but that doesn't excuse the way she has been treated... and it most CERTAINLY does not warrant a death sentence.
"I arrive at my opposition to capital punishment from a Christian perspective, I can't hardly expect a secular humanist here, nor a Buddhist in Laos to share that opinion."
Are you saying that non-Christians can't also be against the death penalty for the same reasons? Despite popular belief, even atheists like myself believe in the value of human lives and we have a moral code....humanism..... ya know, empathy for other people and just generally knowing what's right and wrong.
Sorry, Kelley, I wasn't saying that secular humanists or Buddhists can't oppose capital punishment, I was just (sloppily) saying that I don't think Westerners have the right to cram Western beliefs down the throats of other people--even when we are perfectly justified in our beliefs. And let's not forget that its largely Western demand which finances the overseas drug trade.
Maybe its just 'cuz I saw "Midnight Express" at a very young age, but this woman's actions were incredibly foolhardy.
Agreed. Yes, the young woman's actions were foolish, but we need to look at the bigger picture. People don't always do foolish things because they are well, foolish. Sometimes there are other factors that come into play when it comes to drug use or smuggling. There is a major underlying social problem.
Anyways, the point I am really stressing is the fact that this young woman has been mistreated and sentenced to death which is absolutely horrific. Regardless of her actions, she should still be treated humanely.
You've expressed something that I find most disagreeable about many of the posts here. Laos (and all of southeast Asia) is very different from the USA, and you can't really understand that difference unless you've been there. For instance, in Laos, public displays of affection are frowned upon. As an American, I could say, what a crock! and kiss or hold hands with some guy, and think "screw them!", but that would just be downright rude. True international understanding will come about when we don't try to impose our standards on others (for example, spreading democracy in Iraq) but strive to understand where they're coming from.
There are universal human rights. They have been recognized by the United Nations. They were reiterated by most Asian nations in the Bangkok Declaration. The basic rights of human individuals, agreed by most nations of the world, are more important than and supercede individual customs of nation states.
Arguing custom or tradition when people are being tortured or raped is abhorrent. It doesn't work.
Thank you, I agree as well. We're not supposed to be praising these laws. These laws are heinous. How are you going to sentence a pregnant woman to death by firing squad, when officials in your country, who are probably corrupt as hell aren't being punished accordingly. Accordingly not meaning death by firing squad by the way. Geez.
What does pregnant have to do with it? (unless its a viable fetus)...This angle of attack suggests an "unborn child" argument.
Most US feminist groups combat legislation which extend penalties for killing mother & their unborn children because it legitimizes anti-abortion forces. How is this any different?
You're right. I don't know what the whole pregnant thing has to do with it. But that's clearly the argument most people are using when calling for her to be freed from it and whatnot. I was talking to my parents and my dad was like, "Who's life would you protect?" And I was like, "ummm the woman's... duh" But obviously this unborn child's life is a lot more important than hers. That's what I've been hearing anyway.
Rather... the woman and her child should be saved. In my opinion.
I read about this a few days ago, but this is the first time I've heard that she became pregnant after being arrested. I'm troubled by the way the CNN article talks about it: "She became pregnant in prison. We are concerned that it may not have been consensual." May not? I do not believe sex can be consensual in this type of situation, where one 'partner' is in a position of authority or custodial position. I think we (general 'we') need to be more assertive on this. For instance, most states have no laws against prison-guard sexual contact, which allows exploitation and rape. Obviously, how we frame the issue will have little effect on Laotian laws and prisoner treatment, but it's an issue we should keep in mind when discussing prison-related issues in general.
Agreed.
Apparently its a coed prison, so its possible it was consensual, although maybe not likely.
It feels a bit weird commenting about another nation's criminal justice system when America has the highest incarceration rate in the Western world.
I'm opposed to the death penalty, especially for a crime of this nature, but I think what this woman did was foolish.
I think what this woman did was foolish.
Why the hell are you taking the charges against her as fact? This woman has not even been tried yet. "What this woman did?" I think you mean "what the Laotian authorities claim this woman did."
Usually, when criminal defendants in the U.S. come up in Feministing threads, everybody leaves a slew of comments saying "IF she committed a crime, and we don't know whether she did..." Where's that skepticism now?
What's going on here?
Firstly that people assume she's guilty. She hasn't even seen her attorney, never mind given Feministing a blow by blow account of what happened. None of us know that she is guilty. What about Patricia Cahill and Karyn Smith?
Secondly, in talking about how her identity might effect things for her in prison her being British seems to have dropped out of the picture. Maybe that's because feministing tends to be quite USA-centric, or because we're used to talking about race and gender, but I doubt that her being British will be irrelevant to her treatment.
IF she is guilty...
...let's be real about the situation. An unemployed, uneducated 20-year-old did not mastermind this operation. It's not like she thought of going to Laos by herself, booked and paid for her own hotel and airfare, and had the means to distribute it and sell it all by herself. Someone set her up to it.
Just to add, she wasn't going to get the death penalty. Not because she is pregnant but because Laos hasn't executed anyone in nearly 2 decades. The main reason why the death sentence has been brought up is to make sure that she gets warranted medical attention.
And as far as her pregnancy, the prison she is in is a mixed gender prison. The population is mostly male. I am not saying that there isn't the very strong possibility that she was raped but it isn't necessarily.
How do you know this? I look at this situation and see the exact opposite: that only an unemployed, uneducated dunderhead would attempt such a foolish escapade!
Do you really think she thought to herself one day "let me go to Laos and try to smuggle over a pound of heroin" by herself? Do you think she arranged the contacts with whoever gave her the heroin by herself? Do you think she paid for the airfare and hotel accommodations by herself? (Something that would be a couple thousand of dollars. A fortune for someone like her.)
Do you know anything about the drug trade? It is a multi-trillion dollar industry. Do you really think that uneducated, young people from the street are really orchestrating such a global phenomena? I guess you also think thugs in Compton and Camden are the reason there is so much heroin and cocaine in the United States because of course the Bloods and Crypts have airplanes and boats....
The girl is a drug mule. Drug mules are on the lowest totem pole of the drug trade. They are not the ones organizing or getting rich from the drug trade. Drug mules are almost always poor and uneducated, as this woman was, and they are almost always approached by someone who is charming, well dressed, and who offers them money. In her case, a sweet talking man who was nice on the eyes would have been enough.
Or are you saying 20-year-olds from broken families have never did anything stupid for a guy before?
that only an unemployed, uneducated dunderhead would attempt such a foolish escapade!" Great way to show your privilege semolina! Thanks for proving everyone else's point.
Wow. Enjoy your bubble.
So, hopefully they'll arrest the handlers & conspirators as well, but the presence of co-conspirators is hardly exculpatory.
What about personal accountability? Shouldn't people who know that smuggling drugs is illegal be made to pay a price, especially when what they're doing is illegal in most of, if not all, the countries of the world? Maybe the punishment is draconian, maybe the pregnancy was forced, but hey, if she had obeyed the law, she would not be in this pickle in the first place.
"But", you protest, "the law is unfair!" Well, if the law is unfair you should change it. Just because you don't agree with a law doesn't give you the right to disobey it AND avoid punishment. This is where I'm coming from. Laws are good. They keep order. People cannot expect to disobey them and go off scott free. Many posters seem to think people should not have to suffer the consequences of their actions. (damned codependent society that we've evolved to!)
So possible rape is ok as long as you "obey the law"?
This is the excuse people give to rob, rape, and kill prostitutes. They are "breaking the law and spreading disease after all."
The fact is we don't know everything that is going on not to mention how the media is keep making continuous errors when reporting this case. I highly doubt, if she is guilty, that she thought of doing this on her own and financed it on her own. She is on the lowest totem pole of drug criminals but it seems that every country only goes after the grunts.
Also I only find "personal accountability" ever brought up when the person's hue is on the side of having more melanin. I never see any of the thousands of Western men who go to South East Asia to have sex with children be faced with the possibility of the punishment of death.
I guess she should "bootstrap" herself because we live in a "merit based society", huh?
No, rape is not okay. But I've lived a long enough life to know that we often make our own crown of thorns, and one sure way is to do stupid things, like this woman did. People who rob, rape and kill are also breaking the law, and I don't condone that either. That argument is just a red herring.
I hope you're not accusing me of being a racist. I don't see color when I discuss this case. I see a woman who did a stupid thing, and I don't care what color she is. I would say the same thing if she were white, brown, yellow, red, green, purple, orange, chartreuse... Everyone should be accountable for their actions. We're always looking for someone to pin the blame on, aren't we. It's never our fault.
I am not saying that you are racist. But to have it as a "simply don't break the law" is an incredibly simplistic way of looking at it. We still do not have all the information and probably never will.
To think that someone "made their own crown of thorns" to be raped is horrific.
And even though some people may not be racist in the sense of "hating" another group of people or even necessarily seeing another group of people as inferior, often race plays a roll in terms of people feeling empathy for another person. Often, people from other groups are seen in "static" terms without considering the fact that people don't live in a vacuum.
Yes, it's beautiful in its simplicity.
Think about it.
No child sex (illegal)
No rape (illegal)
No robbery (illegal)
No killing (illegal)
No drugs (who needs 'em anyway?)
Utopia. :-)
Making drugs illegal has created an international drug trade that has resulted in death and misery world-wide. It hasn't worked. It won't ever work.
Drug use is not the problem; the black market created by the illegality of drugs is.
Who needs them? Please. Many currently illegal substances have legitimate medical uses. Many would be safer if made legal and controlled.
I can't believe you've equated the use of drugs with the rape of children. It's completely off.
I really wish more people could see the connection between keeping drugs illegal and violent underground drug trade.
Have we learned nothing from prohibition?
I really wish more people could see the connection between keeping drugs illegal and violent underground drug trade.
Have we learned nothing from prohibition?
There are 16yo's in this country who are on the bottom of the totem pole committing great violence in the trade of these drugs. We don't exempt them from justice because they are young, or because most of them are men, or, frankly, even if they happen to be female. Its not as if drug laws aren't well understood.
I take offense that somehow only white people care about personal responsibility. Often the minorities being assaulted by the drug trade care about it more. I have friends and family on both sides of the drug trade and each made their choice.
And this classist canard suggesting that somehow drug lords are Harvard educated or some such, doesn't conform to reality. If you study your criminology most drug lords are former mules, slingers, and soldiers. They rise through the ranks. From Al Capone to Carlo Escobar all these guys started out as ambitious hoods. If anything this reinforces Laos' decision to punish the small time dealers & mules strongly.
You know what Al Capone got arrested for? Tax evasion. Most of the people that get caught for the actual drug offenses such as smuggling are those lower on the totem pole and thus the lower class that have fewer choices and are not as educated about their choices in life and educated about the actual reprocussions of their actions.
My knowledge of the hood & of the projects isn't theoretical; its personal. There's nothing complex about choosing a life in the drug business. It means income & maybe really big bucks. It means dodging death and policeman. The people who do it know its wrong, and sometimes they're hopeless, but most times they simply don't care. Either way its equally wrong. Maybe they were raised by drug addled parents, or by no parents at all, but they still have choices. Everyone has agency.
Just because you were able to overcome obstacles doesn't mean everyone is. Wake up and take a look around. Good for you but realize you don't speak for everyone and your exerience isn't everyone's experience.
I don't think that most posters are saying that one shouldn't be appropriately punished for illegal acts. But think about what you are saying for one second. This is a human being who made a BIG mistake and yes, disregarded the law. Does that make it ok for her to undergo abuse in prison or be (both her and the baby) executed? It's one thing to respect the laws of other countries but a whole different thing to accept human rights abuses. This is not about me imposing my Western ideals upon others, it's about being a decent human being who cares about the well-being of all other humans. I just sense of lack of empathy here.
Here's an example: what if a woman in say Iran (assuming the marital rape law still stands) decides that she is going to not submit to her husband and that she is going to leave her house without a male relative's permission. She is then arrested and let's say hypothetically sentenced to be stoned. Would you then say "well, she knew it was the law so she needs to face the punishment." Is this one of those "good laws" you were talking about? Yes, laws are important and people should pay a price, but I still cannot agree that somehow this young woman is deserving of her treatment.
I don't think you can suggest with a straight face that burying a woman up to her neck and slowly stoning her to death for disobeying her husband is equivalent to executing a drug dealer by firing squad. At least I hope you're not suggesting that with a straight face. No one's saying Westerners can't condemn atrocities/human rights abuses committed in places like Darfur, Rwanda, Apartheid-era South Africa, Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Guantanamo Bay for that matter--BUT last I looked the drug trade was universally illegal.
I disapprove of the death penalty but I'm not arrogant enough to suggest that other countries might not have well justified reasons for employing it.
I was only pointing out the problem with a sweeping statement such as the "she knew it was illegal and should pay the price" line. I know that the two are nowhere near the same.
I have been merely trying to point out the treatment she has received, not condoning drug smuggling. It's easy to see "criminals" sometimes as this "other" without first recognizing them as human beings. The way some are talking about her crime would lead one to think that she had killed someone. I have a serious problem with the way OUR justice system treats drug offenses. I really cannot see them as any where near the same as murder, rape, or robbery, yet a lot of people with drug convictions spend as mush (or more) time as violent offenders. So yes, drugs are illegal almost universally and I think that the way the laws are enforced are universally messed up. It solves nothing and certainly does not address WHY people choose to either use or sell drugs. It's sad.
Are you honestly saying that countries have well justified reasons for using the death penatly in non-violent drug offenses? Because I'd really like to hear your reasoning behind that. Really.
Sure, take a look at Mexico. The violence is such that I could imagine an across the board death penalty there for any drug related offenses, violent or not. I don't know that I could support it, but I can easily imagine it. The drug cartels are now a grave national security threat to the Mexican government, with over 1000 dead from drug related violence last year. I don't know enough about Laos' history to know if they once were that, or once feared that, but harsh penalties for the drug trade are pretty common in SE Asia.
Given the immense violence visited there by the Vietnam war, I would understand grave concern about the nexus of guns-drugs-and ex soldiers. The FARC in Colombia and the Taliban in Afghanistan now take advantage of the very drug proceeds they once complained about to fuel their enterprises. No tolerance policies can work. Just visit Singapore.
You didn't answer my question. I didn't say is it possible. Obviously it's possible for countries to have this ridiculous punishment for drug-related offenses because Laos has it on the books. What I asked was is it justified.
And do you maybe think that all those things you stated about the violence steming from the drug trade have to do with the "War on Drugs" and drugs being illegal in the first place? Maybe read Kelley Jean's comment above about prohibition.
Has anyone ever seen that show Locked Up Abroad? They interview westerners who were caught smuggling drugs and sentenced to jail in third world countries. Usually as you watch them, you're thinking how stupid, how could they have possibly made this decision... But it still seems like the consequences are out of proportion. And a lot of times they do claim to have been somewhat coerced by the drug dealers; like they agree ahead of time to smuggle a small amount of drugs, and then they are given a huge amount and threatened with death if they try to back out.
Exactly! (And yes I have seen that show.) Drug mules, in particular international drug mules, often do not have a complete picture of what is even going on.
This woman isn't a harden criminal. I haven't heard of a past crime record mentioned. People are coerced, manipulated, bribed, mislead, all the time by people more knowledgable, savy, charasimatic, and ruthless than they are all the time. There is a reason you don't see very many drug mules who are much older than their late 20s.
I've only seen a few episodes, but they were pretty memorable.
I saw one episode about a couple partying in Ibiza; they ran out of money and were offered a free vacation to Columbia if they'd bring back some drugs. They flipped a coin and decided to do it even after the coin said not to. They seemed really stupid and just not aware of consequences at all. They probably deserve some punishment, but its not like they intended to hurt anyone, they were just lazy and gullible and didn't think ahead at all. They also claimed they had agreed to only take a small amount and then when they got there they were expected to take entire suitcases full of drugs. The show ended with the camera panning out and showing that they were interviewing the woman in her jail cell, where she'll be for the next 10 years or something (usually they interview them after they get out).
Another one was a girl who's friend had done smuggling before, and introduced her to the smugglers. I think she originally agreed to smuggle diamonds or something, and then when she got there a scary man hit her and threatened her and made her take heroin, and she was caught in the airport. I forget what country, but she said she was originally sentenced to death and then they dropped it to life in prison after pleas from American groups. I think she eventually got out after 10 years or so.
I can't recall an episode where the people interviewed claimed to be completely innocent, but it was usually clear that they were just not very bright, didn't mean to hurt anyone, didn't really know what they were getting into, and were threatened when they tried to back out. They absolutely should not have gotten involved in the first place, and probably deserve some punishment for trying to break the law, but I don't think it even approaches deserving the death penalty. I think a short time in jail would actually be more fair, but they make the sentences really really long as a deterrent.
I know this is fiction, but have you seen the movie Brokedown Palace? It's with Claire Danes and someone else (I forget her name). But they are two girls who decide to vacation in Thailand and they fall for this guy there. He convinces them to come with him to some other country and carry something for him. It wasn't drugs, or so they thought. It ends up they get caught at the airport and get sentenced to like 20 years or something. Anyway, it turns out that this guy was like a drug smuggling mastermind that used them as a distraction at the airport so he could get his big drug load through while they were getting arrested. He never got caught and one of the girls ended up staying in prison for most of her life.
Like I said, I know it's fiction, but the idea doesn't sound far fetched to me at all and that's what this story reminded me of when I first heard about it. People do stupid things, trust people they shouldn't trust, etc... But that doesn't mean they should spend their lives in prison or be executed because of it!
It's fantastic that she's exempt from the death sentence, for any reason--no one deserves that, especially not for something as trivial as drug running--but I wish everyone would stop emphasizing that she's pregnant. I can't seem to find a comprehensive source on personhood laws in Laos (the closest I could find was something that said legal abortion services aren't available there), but aside from the fortunate loophole it provides, whether or not she's pregnant should have no bearing on how we think of her. If the death penalty is somehow worse or more horrifying when applied to a pregnant women, then we're attributing some degree of personhood to the fetus. That's a very slippery slope, especially from a feminist perspective.
"That's a very slippery slope, especially from a feminist perspective."
Not for me. I don't think she should be executed for smuggling 1 pound of heroin, but if she was convicted for killing someone it should be the same as the laws on abortion. If the law says abortions are banned after 23 weeks then they should execute her before the 23 weeks or after she was given birth.