Professor Foxy sez:

The last part I want to address is people trying to make you feel guilty. Only you control your feelings, others can't make you feel things. If you don't feel guilty, no issue. If you do feel guilty, examine it.

Do you truly believe this -- namely that no one (fellow feminists or not) can make you feel guilty? Does anyone truly believe that "only you control your feelings"? (Hey, you! Stop feeling so sad, depressed, angry, aroused, afraid, and/or jealous!) And if someone does "make me" feel guilty about something, do we really want to say that I am either in charge or responsible for that guilt?

Doesn't sound human, much less feminist.

But on the main topic, maybe we can admit that all sex, at all moments -- organismic or not -- involves a lot of faking and acting. Indeed, sometimes the acting creates the reality. Where'd we get this idea that sex is this area of pure authenticity?

And last, I think that "Proud Woman"'s comment turns an uncomfortable spotlight on the orgasm-centered nature of a lot of comments on Feministing.

While the fight-for-your-right-to-cum rhetoric may sound empowering, it can also become yet one more benchmark by which a person measures her own shortcomings. We should take PW's concerns seriously.

(And, yes, I've faked it.)

I think faking is a pretty complicated issue with no easy answers. I generally fall into the not faking it camp. There are a couple of things about this question that stood out to me though:

PW explains her rationale of faking it to protect the ego of her partner. Both of them have apparently discussed the issue of not always having orgasms and the partner understands that this is reality. However, PW feels that there are certain times where the partner would feel better about a fake than a give up?

I would submit that this line of reasoning doesn't make a lot of sense to me, particularly if there is an established discussion and trust about not faking and instead giving up. There are some things in relationships that are important measures of trust. This might be one of them for this couple.

Or more straightforward- if you partner is totally cool with the fact that you're not always going to cum, and they would not like you to fake it and would trust you not to do it, i think it's kind of dick to fake it.

All this worrying about a partner's ego though seems kind of silly. Men need to get over their freaking egos, end of story. However, if you're with a man who's over it, and let's say for sake of argument a through and through feminist, I don't really understand the rationale to fake?

I apologize if I'm being naive here- I would very much like to hear other people's thoughts.

@Peter,

I cannot, of course, answer for Prof. Foxy but allow me to answer some of your questions.

Yes, I do truly believe that no one can make you feel anything, if you do not allow it. If you feel guilty, see if you've done something wrong over which to feel guilty about. If you have, fix it. If you haven't, then figure out what tape in your head is causing the irrational feelings of guilt. Seriously, think about this topic for a moment. Why in the world should a woman feel guilty for NOT having an orgasm? See how irrational that is? Pretty nearly as irrational as feeling guilty for having one, isn't it? But those tapes...see, we're taught to feel guilty for wanting to have one, i.e. wanting to have sex but by gosh, if we're going to go ahead with the slutty, we better as hell make sure the guy feels like the king he is and have an orgasm. We also know we're supposed to make it look as close to the porn-orgasms as possible, too. (BTW, they are faking more often than not.)

@ Proud Woman, Sometimes, despite the best efforts and desires of those involved, the orgasm just ain't happening--even if this is the same guy who usually bats in the high .900s. Faking is really the easy and quick way out of the situation. If you are anything like me, taking the easy way out seems to be wrong and lazy and anti-feminist and all that stuff but...well, at 12 midnight on a work night with 2 kids to get off to school and all the rest of it, do we really want to be up to 1am or 2 am "examining the problem"? I don't. I mean, if it happened all the time, okay there is a problem to be examined. But on the rare occasion? No. Actually, the only thing it tells me is that my body isn't robotic wherein if I press this button three times and twist that knob once, X is sure to happen every single time, which honestly, I don't see as a problem. I don't want my body to be robotic--I want it to be a human body. So, on those occasions where the spirit and mind are willing but the body is recalcitrant and time is an issue, I fake it. So, sue me. Just don't tell my husband.

Ha, this reminds me of when I first found out that mentioning on Feministing that you occasionally douche was like announcing that you sometimes like to set fire to kittens just to watch them die.

Sometimes a few of the commentators on Feministing can be a bit doctrinaire. Douching and faking orgasm are anti-feminist, period.

Well, not really. It's funny, I once caught my bf faking it. For some reason, something must have struck me as discordant, and I said "hey, did you just fake it?" And he said, umm, yeah. I asked why and he said that he just knew he wasn't going to come and he didn't want me to think it was my fault, he was just tired.

I laughed so much. That's exactly why I once in a while, fake it with him. Two people who have a genuine concern for each other's feelings. Is it the end of the world? Nah.

Peter,

You brought up a good about sex and pure authenticity, but I think your comment is a bit too dramatic. Sex may involve some acting, if both parties are in to role play, but it doesn't need to take on faking or acting. I would consider 'faking' bad sex.

I think it's more about the connection and intimacy involved. If two people are connected to each other and in the moment, then there is no 'bad' sex. There's been times when I'm having sex with my partner and I don't cum, but it's still very intimate and I tell him where I'm at and we change what we're doing.

I think people put too much emphasis on having the 'orgasm' and not enough on actually being with each other and feeling everything that comes up.

@PW- If you're not going to have an orgasm and he's trying his little heart out, tell him it's not working and do something different. My guess is if you're thinking too hard about having an orgasm, he's thinking to much about making sure you have one. The problem here: both of you are 'thinking' to much, instead of just being with each other.

From experience, there's been times when I'm stuck in my head about everything and I can't feel the intimacy, and I know he's trying really hard, and I feel bad for telling him I'm not going to orgasm. So when I've stopped and told him, he also feels good that I said something. And we'll cuddle or kiss. That gives me space to check in to see what my body actually wants. And sometimes my body just wants to be held or slow down.

I know, I know, as a woman, it's hard to tell our man to stop, but in the long run it'll help the relationship. Learn as you go, and don't beat yourself up over it.

I faked it once and afterwards I felt like it had been pretty pointless, and I never did it again. Usually what we do is my boyfriend doesn't usually finish until after I tell him I'm done. Sometimes I tell him I'm done because I've orgasmed; more often its because I can tell I'm not going to and I'm starting to get sore. But in the middle of sex I don't announce that, I just say he can finish now. If he asks me after, I'm honest about it.

If he ever finds out that you faked orgasms, his ego will hurt far more than not cumming could ever cause.

PW says she does it to save her partners ego sometimes. Do you know how much more damaging it would be to his ego if he ever found out you were faking it? Sometimes I can tell I'm not going to cum so I will let my partner know then give him a sexy grin and tell him it's going to be all about him tonight then I take over and please him. It eases his guilt and assures him that it's not something he was doing wrong. So what if I can't cum sometimes because in the end those sessions are PHENOMENAL for my partner and I. I love being selfless and pleasing him sometimes just as much as I love when he gives me a great orgasm.

I wouldn't say that faking it is good or bad, just that it's unnecessary.

I've got a question for the rest of you women-- is faking it something that only happens with vaginal intercourse, or do you also do it with oral sex? I ask because when I have a clitoral orgasm I can definitely tell, but when I'm having intercourse I'm not always so sure-- it isn't as clear cut. I am honestly not sure sometimes if I've had a vaginal orgasm or not. So is it faking it if I'm not even sure?

My bf & I have the opposite problem. It's easy for me to come, usually multiple times, but it's much harder for him to and it takes a long time. Sometimes we give up on him finishing. Part of it is we have to use condoms. He told me that sometimes he doesn't come but it feels really good like an orgasm. It's kind of a gross analogy but he said it was kind of like dry-heaving as compared to vomiting, except good. That his body makes the motion to orgasm and it feels good but it's not really and orgasm and he doesn't ejaculate. Maybe 1/3 of the time he has one of those, 1/3 he orgasms and 1/3 he doesn't come at all. I wonder if any other men have an experience like that?

What's sexy and considerate about lying to your partner? Especially when it comes to sharing an intimate experience?

As someone who has been faked on and someone who believes that honesty is a pretty important to a healthy relationship, I'm deeply disappointed with this article. An ego boost is not worth lying to the person you love. When they find out they're going to feel like shit [i]not only[/i] because they couldn't satisfy you, but because you feel like you can't trust them enough to admit it.

If it's not exactly anti-feminist it is disrespectful to your partner and not conducive to a happy, healthy love and sex life.

hmm... for me the real problem with faking may be that you end up with a bunch of men who think they are doing everything right, and god's gift and whatnot, but who really have no clue.

And when these men find themselves with inexperienced women, it's suddenly the woman's fault if she can't come, and there is something wrong with her.

Generally I come easily, and I've had enough partners to know what works and what doesn't, but I have talked with women (including my mother) who spent their entire lives thinking there was something wrong with them b/c their much more experienced partner was sure he was doing everything right.

I only fake with myself, is that wrong?

Seriously, though, I used to fake all the time with my first sex partner, until I realized how dumb it was and that I would never get any satisfaction if I kept letting guys think that what they were doing was actually enjoyable for me.

I also think that if you're going to be in a relationship with someone, honesty is key. If you would never lie to your loved one about other parts of your life, why would you lie about that? Maybe it's just this severe aversion I have to being dishonest, but I see it as all the same.

If what you get from him is as lovely as a juicy Big O, despite not quite being it - then do it, but only if you lack the comms to convey that fact, that it was exquisite, that it worked for you, regardless.

"Lack the comms" is not a judgemental term - just being factual. Some things maybe don't translate?

Otherwise, I dunno - which I think is the only honest response.

PS Off a different topic, and apols in advance: I dispute that "no-one can make you feel anything"?

What, then was going on in the past, when women were publicly and socially "made" to feel second rate?

What did rape do, if not "make" someone feel, something?

Or to be cartoon-esque, what if (grotesque but important) I turned up with a chainsaw, and hacked all your loved ones into little pieces?

Slowly?

Would I not then have made you feel, at least, grief, anger, whatever?

Answers welcome - this bugs me, maybe I am hijacking though, in which case sorry.

When I was with men I faked it often, but that's a whole other terrible sexual experiences story.

However, I'm in a same sex relationship now, and I've found that for my girlfriend and I faking is never really an issue.
Generally, we keep doing each other until the receptive partner says to stop, as it's difficult to tell when we've orgasmed versus just hit a plateau (and stopping is what you DON'T want!).
So when I'm "done", either because I've orgasmed or because I'm just not feeling it, I just indicate that I'm done. She does the same. Sometimes afterwards we'll talk about it, and neither of us have any qualms about saying that we didn't get off. In the moment though, it doesn't really matter.

I'm not sure how this would work with opp. sex couples, but it works well for us.

I'm a man and I've faked it before. I think men faking is more common than is generally acknowledged.

Anyway, I think you can fake it here and there and still teach a man what you want him to do for you.

Orgasm only being the "icing on the cake" doesn't really apply to me. If I have sex without reaching orgasm, it feels more like labor than pleasure. The emotional pleasure that I get from giving him pleasure is nice, but the physical pleasure that I get is absolutely nothing. For me, it's just uncomfortable to have sex and not climax.
When I'm with a guy who can't give me an orgasm, he has to either be willing to learn or he's not going to get sex from me (which means the relationship is over, in most cases). It's no big deal if I have sex with him just a few times without reaching orgasm, but if it's most of the time I'm not going to want to have sex at all.

The only way I see this as being a feminist issue, as opposed to a personal one, is that sex always seems to revolve around the male orgasm. I would guess that most couples have never had sex without the man having an orgasm, but it just so happens that many (or maybe even most, I don't know the statistics) women don't have orgasms during sex at all. The majority of men probably can't even imagine not achieving orgasm during sex, so why do we disregard the fact that many/most women don't? Why is female orgasm so unimportant? Why does sex always end when the guy has an orgasm, regardless or whether or not his partner has had one as well?

However, with that being said, asseenontv has a good point. There may be a lot more men faking it then I assume.

This is a toughie. I would have always said faking is universally bad, for all the reasons everyone has covered. And I'll admit that reading PW's description of the sexual experience kind of made me cranky for an orgasm finish to it. It's a very accurate description, it seems to me, of the point during a sexual encounter at which I ask my husband to hold me or kiss me or stay involved some other way while I reach down and finish myself off with my hand. But I'm very used to an orgasm finish, and a big clitoral one at that. I can't say I've ever faked orgasm, but I've definitely exaggerated his role in giving one to me, while still telling him what I need from him to make it even better next time. So I don't know... if PW really is getting her needs met, emotionally and sexually, and so is her partner, I guess I don't see a problem with it.

Umm... seems to me we'd have a healthier culture in general if orgasm wasn't seen as a necessary defining characteristic of sex (this goes for both men and women here). I'm just not big on the idea of goal-oriented sex, I guess. If you're mostly focused on the goal can you still enjoy the ride as much?

I can orgasm on my own just fine. I don't know when I'll ever be able to with a partner. I would like my partners to understand that if I'm enjoying the experience enough that's all that matters, and I'd like men to take the same attitude towards me (that is, that they can still enjoy it and it still "counts" even if I don't manage to give them an orgasm).

I don't fake because it teaches bad habits, and because I think most of the partners I've had have sturdy enough egos to take it if I don't get off. (Also I think my SO would know, and he'd be infinitely more irritated and hurt that I'd lied to him than that I hadn't come. I didn't come for the first five months we were involved, and he just did his best to make sure I was having -fun.- Which made it easier to relax, and eventually, to get off, which now happens most of the time.)

If someone doing something that doesn't get me off, but I fake it and let them think it does, they think what they're doing is pleasing me. They want to please me again. So they do the same thing again. Again, I don't get off. And while I'm totally fine with the fact that sometimes, I just don't have an orgasm, I'm not fine with letting someone keep doing things I don't actually enjoy. And if I did like it, but it just didn't make me come, what's wrong with saying "I loved that, it just didn't get me off. Don't worry about it, sweetie, I still had a good time"?

I generally appreciate it when a partner tells me what to do differently if what I'm doing isn't quite the thing. It's not them saying I'm inadequate. I can't know everything about another person's body right off the bat. It's nice when they teach me, so I can put that information to use and genuinely please them.

My Personal experience only: I sometimes faked. My partner was incredibly insecure and needy, and sometimes I just didn't have the energy to reassure him it was good (especially when it wasn't... sex causes me pain because of medical conditions). I didn't want to get into a long argument.

I later learned how to say no to painful sex, so this is not an issue as much.

But wanting to please a partner can be a huge factor in the decision. How do you negotiate when you took your partner's virginity, all he knows is sex with you, and it causes you physical pain? Now he has a complex about it. As much as it sucked for me, I really cared about how he felt. Part of me also thinks he'd be insecure about it regardless of my experience. Oh well, live and learn.

Oh, and a note to men:

THE BEST WAY TO HELP A PARTNER NOT FAKE IS TO NOT TAKE IT PERSONALLY!
I cannot emphasize how much I was tempted to fake if I knew my lack of orgasm would lead to all kinds of annoying emotional stuff. If she doesn't orgasm, the WORST thing you can do is put her in a place where she has to reassure YOU! This is not the way it should be.

Think about it this way.

Guys rarely if ever fake - and most men who were consistently having non orgasm producing sex with a woman would stop having sex with her (and would not hesitate to tell her why - with little to no concern about "hurting her feelings").

So, why is faking it OK for women - even "occasionally".

And not telling a man he can't make you cum A) makes your orgasm less important than his and B) wastes a "teachable moment" where you could show him how to make you cum.

So, yeah, faking orgasms actually IS a feminist issue!

I've had vaginal orgasms as well. I think it has something to do with the way I used to masturbate, I didn't figure out how to work the clit until after I'd been doing it the other way. It's not always easy to cum this way unless I'm on top and can adjust myself to a certain angle, otherwise I have to be either really aroused or able to touch myself.

For the record, I have faked it while having sex with women, so I do not think this is solely an issue of men having fragile patriarchal egos, but rather an issue of the sensitive issue of sexual performance.

It would be nice to be able to have an honest conversation with every sexual partner and to expect them to take it well, but sometimes we aren't that emotionally connected. If we/I have sex with people I don't know very, very well, this lack of communication is sometimes the natural outcome. And that doesn't make me a bad feminist, it just makes me a woman trying to navigate the sometimes complicated nature of sex.

for me.. faking it doesnt make any sense.. for my and my boyfriend sex is something fun that we do.. and if he's tired and isnt going to cum.. thats okay.. and if i just cant get there.. thats okay too.. and also.. if he's too tired to get me to cum.. i whip out my handy vibrator.. i think faking it is lying.. and its a pretty ugly lie to tell just because its not so serious that you need to lie about it.. and plus.. it always made me nervous in my past relationship to fake it .. because i never wanted a guy to think that was something that got me off.. if it wasnt. because i never wanted a guy to be like.. doing the thing that i "faked it" on last time .. thinking its gonna get me off. but its not cuz i faked it last time.

Thats my take on Fakin it. Id rather just say.. let try again tomorrow.. :)

Both women and men have posted here saying that they have faked/not come during sex or that their partners have faked/not climaxed (including my bf who fairly often doesn't climax), so I don't think it's strictly a women-not-coming/faking thing.

That being said, it certainly seems that part of the dialogue surrounding this issue is that women are the ones that are nearly always having difficulty achieving orgasm or faking.

This may be true in many cases, but I see this dialogue as an "othering" of female sexuality; in this dialogue female sexuality is complicated and mysterious, whereas male sexuality is the default. Men are accessible, easy to please in bed, their sexuality is uncomplicated, etc. It's time to re-examine the notions that it's always easy for men to come but not for women to, or that male sexuality isn't complex but female sexuality is.

These notions are constantly espoused in magazine articles, etc. but just don't hold up when anyone I know shares their actual sexual experiences. They could be true for many people, but not true for many others. These generalizations don't help any of us understand our sexuality either.

I faked it one time with an ex boyfriend. I told myself I was NEVER going to do it again because it felt wrong and stupid and I felt like I was doing myself a huge disservice.

With my current boyfriend, I value him and myself too much to fake it.

Oh and just because you faked it and now you feel bad doesn't mean you can twist it into being a feminist decision when it isn't.
We have all faked it at one point or another, but we know that it's bad for women, it's bad for the relationship and it's anti-feminist.

I have never cum during sex. I have never cum from oral. I have cum from being fingered ONCE. Even masturbating is practically a labor of love for me, most of the time.

If ever it was impossible for a woman to cum during P-in-V sex, I would be that woman. But I love sex, orgasm or none. I initiate it at least as often as he does. If I'm not in the mood, I don't just do it anyway out of some strange societal obligation. So to tell me that it is somehow wrong for me to exaggerate it on occasion for the benefit of my boyfriend - whose greatest turn-on seems to be my pleasured reactions - just rubs me the wrong way. I don't give a flying fuck whether or not anyone else think it's "feminist enough" or not, it's what works for me.

I think maybe the single most useful thing for men to learn is that many (most?) women can enjoy sex without having an orgasm. And if she doesn't come every single time, it doesn't mean you're lousy in bed.

But where are men going to learn that? Not from any depiction of sex in mainstream culture (movies, TV, the odd porn flick) that I've ever seen. We learn that when women are having sex we should moan and groan and thrash around in apparent ecstasy. With that kind of expectation, no wonder. Too much pressure.

Being able to relax and enjoy sex without being focussed on coming ... well, if anything, I'd say that's more likely to produce results.

At least we have an expectation that in straight sex men are going to try to please their female partner. That's certainly a feminist issue, and I expect that's changed a lot over the years. Now we just have to work on the "how."

I love orgasms, but I don't always feel the need to have one. Everything leading up to it is damn good, too. I'd rather have the freedom to not feel like I MUST orgasm.

If the big O doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. I don't mind - and I've let my husband know this. Some days, he'll want me to when I just...well...won't, for whatever reason, but I won't fake it for him. It would feel too much like deception, and if he ever found out I were lying about it, or if he even suspected it, he would be a lot more upset than were I not to "finish" every now and then.

One point that I haven't seen raised is that faking is not always done for the sake of protecting a partner's ego. I submit an (admittedly rare) scenario in which faking is done for the sake of expediency, for want of a better term.

In this scenario my SO and I engage in intercourse, in a position that provides more stimulation for her than for me. After a while, we both realize that neither of us is as into it as we thought. For her, this means an orgasm seems unattainable. For me, this means this position is not going to bring me to orgasm without the added mental stimulation of her orgasm. Regardless my SO accommodates my desire for an orgasm. Given the choice between switching positions (with the loss of momentum that would entail) and faking, my SO may choose the latter.

I don't view this as a deception, but rather as her pragmatically utilizing her knowledge of my sexual response.

My first response is always "do you masturbate?" How can we expect our partners to please us if we do not even know how to please ourselves?

Heh. One thing I know, masturbating doesn't please me.

Also, um, not to be repetitive, but this thread is really heteronormative. Enough with the notes to men already: lesbians and gay men fake it, straight men and straight men fake it.

Faking is not only anti-feminist, it's anti-pleasure. I used to fake it all the time, because it was definitely easier than admitting to myself and to my partners that I wasn't coming and that they weren't doing enough. I think it comes from the fact that I come with partners through oral, and really don't enjoy coming during PIV intercourse with clitoral stimulation. I come every time I masturbate. I was self-conscious about asking for oral almost every time I had sex (even though none of the guys who were worth it cared in the least about going down on me every time) and I really wanted to give the guy the satisfaction of "cumming on his dick." How stupid and porny is that? I think all the faking also had to do with the fact that I didn't think I had a g-spot until a little over a year ago when one of my partners magically found it. I still haven't had a g-spot orgasm, but now PIV sex is intensely pleasurable even without coming. Tehanu said it right, that hetero and bi men need to understand that women can greatly enjoy PIV sex without cumming.

Now that I've stopped faking it and started communicating more, my eyes have really opened to male insecurities about female orgasms. A few weeks ago I brought an attractive gentleman home with me after a party and he was just way too stressed out that I wasn't going to come. If I said, "I'm not going to come," he responded with, "YES YOU ARE" and apologized the entire time that he wasn't making me come. It's tough to explain to guys who are this insecure that it says nothing negative about them if they listened to my directions, tried their best, and I still didn't come.

Faking it really starts a vicious cycle. Woman feels bad she takes a long time to come, needs very specific stimulation, can't come during PIV sex, yadayadayada, then starts faking it to make man feel better. Man feels like a stud, woman feels guilty and admits she's been faking, man feels like complete shit and becomes obsessed with making her come. He becomes super stressed out when they have sex and tries wayyy too hard without enjoying it, she feels even more pressure because he is so focused on her orgasm, so she likely continues to fake it. And the whole thing starts again! I don't think faking is bad because it teaches men the wrong technique, it's bad because it causes extreme stress, insecurity, anxiety, confusion, and poor communication. While I think it is anti-feminist to do something that WILL hurt your relationship in the long run, I will never knock individual women for faking it. I completely understand why they do.