I met so so so many young women who read Feministing but who told me they didn't comment because of the sometimes-hostile environment in our threads.

I am very, very surprised by this comment. I've always felt the comments and commenters here are the absolute best on the web. By that I mean that on almost every thread, several commenters will leave incredibly thoughtful insights; insights that truly make me think of the topic in a different way and that enhance and expand upon the original. I always feel I learn something each time.

I visit other sites where I feel the posts are many times more substantial, but the comments are worthless. I.e., the comments are either one line or one sentence saying little more than "me, too" or "you suck". And at other sites, I feel the commenters are just waiting for the opportunity to pounce on something so that they can spew their pent up hostility, with no interest in actually listening to what others have to say. My impression is that I've only very rarely seen this degree of hostility at this site.

In summary, I think the comments here add significant value to the posts. My impression is that disagreements may become very heated, but almost always respectful. Thus, it's my absolute favorite site to visit.

I have to agree with Jessica's observation of the comments posted. I realized that the only time that I responded about something was because of one of two things 1) the issue was too important for me to ignore 2) someone made a comment that I found too offensive to ignore. Often the latter happens more than the former, but I have hope that after reading this post bloggers may rethink their words (and tones) before posting.

We are all people. We all have similar ideals of gender equality. I just hope we can listen to each other and respect each other's opinions without being dismissive, disrespectful, or hypercritical.

"I met so so so many young women who read Feministing but who told me they didn't comment because of the sometimes-hostile environment in our threads."

I agree 110% I don't think you guys moderate the comments enough. I think that anything anti-feminist is obviously got to go, but I don't think that its extended enough. Comments can still be very damaging for someone to read even if they aren't as clearly anti-feminist as the mailbag. For example, ahem, telling someone that was sexually assaulted that she should've expected that to happen because she had be drinking, for instance. You don't think maybe that comment should go, too? I contacted you about it, so perhaps you don't agree?

I expect this to be my last comment on the site, though I'll still read the articles. Perhaps some might see this as oversensitive, but I don't need to feel blamed by people who identify as feminists in addition to all the others I encounter in my off-line life. Good luck all.

LOL, yeah, the comments here can be hostile, but keep it causal, don't stress it, and don't sweat it.

Everyone needs to relax and listen to others' opinions. If I was rude to anybody, I apologize. I can get caught up in the moment sometimes. lol

when people call me a cunt, I say YES, I AM! I will glady embrace those terms people throw at me. Learn to fight fire with WATER.

but keep up the good work on Feministing!!!!

I absolutely love the comment section of this site (as I said above), but I do like the idea of connecting this blog to different forms of activism outside of the world wide web. I'm thinking a focus on local feminist communities and events, perhaps in the community section, could help merge these two spheres. I recently moved to San Francisco, and yet I haven't found a really active intersectional feminist community. I'm partially to blame; full-time graduate school and employment does not make time for social and activist exploration. I think the Upcoming Events is a really good start. I don't know if what I am imagining is possible, regional feminist correspondents in the community section highlighting different local issues and activities--just a brainstorm on how to connect the blogging world to "real life activism."

While most of the comments here at Feministing are great and quite thought-provoking, a few can be insensitive or hurtful because people are less likely to use a necessary degree of tact in online debates. However, I don't think that anything that could be the least bit offensive to a person should just be deleted. I think maybe you could put a disclaimer after the objectionable comment and let us know you don't agree with it, but simply erasing all comments not in line with Feministing's viewpoints would not be a good way to foster healthy debate. Anyone with a slightly differing opinion would be too scared to comment, and sometimes these harsher comments cause necessary critical thinking on an issue. Perhaps a reply to a harsh comment will help the original commenter think about how their negative comment was damaging, and learn from his or her mistake (assuming the original commenter isn't just a troll).

Actually, I had a necessary and life-changing transformation due to dissenting comments on my opinion on taking a husband's name in marriage. My post (http://community.feministing.com/2009/03/a-new-perspective-on-taking-yo.html) was controversial and started what I like to call a "virtual feminist shitstorm." There were some positive comments, a lot of negative ones, and some blatantly rude and condescending comments. I'm thankful for each of these comments, because the commenting shitstorm after that post led me to think critically about taking my potential future husband's name just to get away from my father's name. Eventually, the debates on the commenting thread led me to decide to change my name to one of my own choosing in a year, a decision I feel strongly about. I even got in touch with a Feministing member through email, and we're working out some of the details.

Basically, some shitty comments are expected online, and while we do need to be a bit more careful in how we say things, we can't discount the value of differing opinions.

When you get the answer in how to create a safer space please let me know. If it is not the vicious e-mail it is the comment thread. It is so hard to separate yourself and take it personally.

I have some suggestions for how people can contribute and make feministing a more welcoming community:

1. Validate. Part of feminism is empowering women's voices. When you agree with somebody or think that they spoke well, say so. Every once in a while, make a comment that is purely supportive. A virtual high-five.

2. Make it personal when it's positive, impersonal when it's negative.
(2a) When somebody says something that you really like, try and remember his or her name and give him or her a nod for it. Using names helps build community. It's a small thing, but it shows people that they matter as more than just a blip of data on the internet.
(2b) When somebody says something that you really don't like, cut the personal attacks and give them the benefit of the doubt. Just because somebody said something you don't agree with doesn't make them a troll; feminism is a diverse community. E

3. If the Moderators ever get tired of Movable Type, it might be nice to change up the format of this blog and include some more community-building features. By that I mean more prominent profiles and the ability to "private message" each other. A "private message" option might also reduce the number of times that a thread gets hijacked by a debate between two people or by a conversation that is interesting, but completely off-topic. It would be really nice to have someplace where threadjacks could be redirected by the moderators, so that the conversation could remain open to the community but would no longer be distracting from the original topic of a post.

We're all different coming from different backgrounds and perspectives but I haven't been cussed out half as much as I expected to be.

I totally applaud everyone at Feministing for their work here. I can only imagine how difficult it is to put yourself out there as they do and then receive criticisms of their framework or perspectives. I've posted here a few times, and sometimes get anxious pangs when I check back to see if anyone has responded to what I've said. So, I can only imagine what the women of Feministing go through, posting multiple times everyday.

This sort of reminds me of my Women's Studies program. In our major-only classes, we fight tooth and nail. But, when we take classes with non-majors, we support each other and back each other up as much as possible. Essentially, our feminisms are not necessarily the same, but we are all feminists, so we use that to get us through.

Just an opinion:

I say we model after the Feminist Majority Foundation and its chapters of Feminist Majority Leadership Alliance. Not to take anything away from the FMF and its great work, but I think this website is better at reaching out to young feminists. Because of that factor, what if we were to start a non-profit organization which chapters spread across towns and campuses? Much like FMF and FMLA, we can also make this into a 501(c)3/4, meet each year to plan, hold various forums and report on how well we all did.

One of the problems that I sensed with FMLA when I was a student was that there didn’t seem to be a lot of networking. There were conferences each year and we’d meet to learn how to be activists, but very rarely and unless we exchanged email addressed and facebook contacts, did we ever stay in touch. In the end, a lot of students, I believe, forgot about the issues and lost interest. The chief complaint I’d heard from other feminists is that, despite being a large organization that’s well-funded, we were never really a community like we were meant to be.

With these chapters, we can make political and personal activism the purpose, in which we can always reach out to one another to exchange ideas and engage to in calls-to-action. Feministing.com, it seems, would serve as a grand hub for all conversations as well as throwing around ideas, and as well serve as a place where young feminists voice their concerns and frustrations (as it already serves as such).

Need advice on how to start a feminist organization on campus? Come to this website for talking points and advice on how to become a recognized student organization. Frustrated with sexist professors or fraternities? Come to the website to see what legal actions you can take. Your state coming out with legislations that threaten a woman’s right to choose? Come here as well - to vent your frustration and at the same time, call other feminists to take action. Need to find out how to best reach and include pro-feminist men on campus, this website can be your resources, too. In all, think of the site as a service-learning initiative - it’s an informal, online women’s studies class (the blogging part), but with it also comes an opportunity to take part in service (activism). Through this, I think this website can serve as not only the forum for consciousness raising as it currently is, but also the center of feminist action. Also, by knowing one another not only from conferences but also through events at various local events, a human element will be added, which means when discussing ideas on these forums, whether as a matter of deconstruction or throwing around ideas, we're less likely to be hostile toward one another.

Sometimes, the best way to deal with misogynists and sexist assholes is to fight back legislatively, and to place our energy and thoughts into action. They can hate women all they want, but it’ll be a rude awakening for them when reality smacks them in the face and they realize that while they were busy sending hate mails and engaging in online misogyny, feminists actually went out there and made reality of equal rights - the things that scare them the most.

Marc

I'm one of those who reads but rarely comments. I'm so sick of having my opinion shot down by white American feminists who think they have a better grasp on Africa as a whole, and Asia as a whole better than someone who has spent most of her life on both of those continents and is in fact African (specifically Ghanaian). It's happened so many times and I've had people shoot down things that I have to say and try to "educate" me when I CLEARLY know more about it because I've LIVED IT. It makes me not want to be a part of the feministing community at all. Then again, that's what it was like the entire time I lived in America, so maybe I just shouldn't be surprised.

I actually think the feministing comments section is one of the more reasonable of online communities I've seen. I've never seen it get any more hostile than an argument in a college class and that says a lot considering the anonymity of the internet. The only exception is comments that were intentionally inflammatory which were deleted quickly. I think moderating the comments further would be bad idea and I would end my participation here. Ultimately, valid dissent will end up being silenced and more importantly, the opportunity to explore the depths of an argument will be lost. The real world is fairly hostile towards feminism, so I feel like this is good place for a lot of women to learn arguments to stand their ground.

And I realize I'm going to sound like one of those people that says, "Well, I'm sorry if you were offended" but I think the lack of vocal tone on the internet leads some people to read comments as more hostile than they are. I've had people react in a very hostile or defensive way when I'm simply disagreeing with parts of their argument. I think it helps if you try to avoid reading disagreements as personal attacks.

I don't know how feministing compares to other large blogs, but I do personally find people in the comments to be really mean to each other, very harsh, even cruel, and not to "trolls" but also to serious, throughful comments and posts

I might be very sensative, but that's my impression

I would just like to say that I've thoroughly enjoyed this website. However, I'm a very "young" feminist and I hesitate to comment because I'm sure I will say something "wrong" and get blasted for it. Please remember that some of us are very new at this and education and information, not hostile responses will benefit us more. I do, however get a lot out of the disagreements because it makes me think critically about a subject and helps me solidify my arguments and opinions. Otherwise, thanks for the great website and I hope to be a more active participant in the future.

I'd suggest that comments be closed on posts over thirty days old. If someone has a new insight on a post from, say, a previous year, they'd be better off making a community post with a link to the archived post; that way whatever they have to say would actually get noticed. And trolls can't sneak in to tack nasty comments on.

I'm actually surprised at the amount of people that have found Feministing's commenting section to be hostile. When compared to other online forums, I've found Feministing to be very welcoming while still being open to debate. In my experience, most Feministing users are thoughtful while not being at all scared about speaking their mind.

I think that it's important that Feministing is a place where we CAN speak our minds while still being open enough so that no one feels they are being attacked. So while it's important to be careful about what we say, it's also important to have a place where we can say what we think. All we need is a balance between the two.

Relentless, straightforward and direct presentation of feminist thought, with rapid and confident response to criticism and no toleration of diversionary tactics.

It's been said that one should not let idiots drag you down to their level and beat you with experience: this is very true. Realize that no matter how well you present a position, there is always a small core of people that will actively resist cognitive dissonance with every fiber of their being. Attempting to convert these people is foolhardy. If and when they change, it will be because they realized the flaws in their own thinking.

On the other hand, there are some people for whom this is not true and are willing to change their position when confronted with a good argument otherwise (my own position on feminist epistemology 5 years ago comes to mind). What convinced me was the clear, direct and confident presentation of a feminist critique of epistemology that I could not dismiss. Ergo, I had no choice but to concede my error.

Creating a better feminist space for discussion online is as simple and difficult as that. Where possible, present a feminist viewpoint. Do not shy away from correcting misunderstandings, nor should people feel bound by considerations of "is this the socially-acceptable, polite thing to do?" Confront sexism head on. Call people on their nonsense, and be ready to back up your claims.

You won't convince the idiots, but ignore those people. Chances are, they're only acting the way they do because no one is listening to them anyway. But you will convince some people, who will then understand that they should make the spaces in which they discuss ideas non-sexist as well.

First I want to say that the comments section of feministing is the heart and soul of this blog. I love Jessica, I love all the women that write, but it's so nice to look forward to reading all kinds of differing, (for the most part)well-thought out opinions on the comments section.

BUT, I have noticed quite a bit more hostility lately than I ever have on feministing. I think that it's because there are a lot of new feminists with brand new perspectives trying to get rid of old ideas and trying out their feminism on this website.

What I mean by that is, there are some young feminists on here that probably feel intimidated and sometimes don't want to comment because they feel they aren't 'smart' enough yet and will get criticized.

Which I think is valid because it seems like a lot of women on this blog assume that everyone knows as much as them and are just as educated as them, but not everyone is and those people get shot down very quickly for not understanding what "objectification" is or "male gaze" or whatever else.

In my personal experience, I've been uneducated on some things, and have been respectfully informed by other feminists.

But on other things, cough*porn*cough, I have been told things that are down right mean and hostile.

And as for what we can do to make this site better?

I think that we need to find a way to make sure that we all see the person behind the computer screen as actual PEOPLE.
I thought feministing said they were going to add avatars when they updated the site last year, but it seems they never did add them.

Avatars with our picture would force us into viewing the other commenters as people and therefore would encourage us to be less hostile.

Our pictures and names should be clickable and we should be able to write an 'about me'.

And all this could be for just the feministing community, or regular feministing or whatever.
Thoughts?

Sorry one more thing to add!

-We should have an easily accessible archive of all of our previous comments.

-The feature on our profile that shows commenters who responded to our own comments doesn't work, but a working feature would be awesome.

=)

Amen! Amen amen amen!

Doing online feminism, I feel like it's easy to get caught up in threads and user names and forget that there are people behind those computer screens.

The balance: so hard to maintain, so vital to the process.

I think there is a top-down problem with the comments on this blog. Most of the writers interact professionally with the commenters and the dialog is very educational. Two regular posters, however, become so childish and defensive and even benign comments that it is embarrassing and frustrating to read their work. Samhita routinely threatens to ban comments from posters that point out other sides or flaws to her arguments (while claiming that she didn't have time to post the complete argument or that she had hoped the readers would be able to flesh out the logic for themselves). Courtney responds to contrary comments with long, pouting, follow-up posts defending herself from perceived personal attacks to the extent that I visualize her as a person who always has to win personal conflicts, and does so by slowly wearing the other person down and constantly reminding them that the issue means more to her than to them, that she is hurt, and therefore they should admit she is right.

The other posters are uniformly professional and informative in their writing, but I have started avoiding posts by these writers because the brittleness and defensiveness in their responses stifles the life of the blog.

I really love the idea of having an archive of your comments, I'd like to be able to look that up. Same with private messaging, that would allow a lot more connectivity within this online space.

Jessica, I'm sure you wouldn't remember but you and I had quite the row over Kerry's 'tar baby' comment. It got personal at times, and it got me pretty upset- but in the end I was glad we had that discussion with everyone else chiming in. I also think I said I wasn't going to comment on here again, and I'm glad I change my mind all the time.

I also got really upset when someone took issue with grammar about the Community "I Was Not Raped" post. But when I explained that (trying to stay away from personal attacks, focusing on my own feeling/ reaction to his post), the commenter reassessed and changed his mind and apologised!

This space is like a training ground. We want to protect it from those who would derail us, or undermine our debates, but only those who do so maliciously. Because in 'real' life, we all know how we're bombarded with anti-feminist and misogynistic comments/ entertainment/ symbols. Here's where we can hash out our ideas to confront that, but also to build a bit of a tough skin- while, of course, retaining our wonderful gooey centres!

I don't comment on feministing much anymore, partially because I don't have time to click through to log in, but largely because I don't feel like the discussions are always.... collegial?

Trolls, honestly, I can deal with. People who I agree with on some issues who get really hostile about disagreeing on others, I can't. (Fat Acceptance, would be one example.)

I think it is great to have discussion and differing viewpoints. I just think the discussion here sometimes gets a little too heated for my taste. I think there are some people (no one in particular, just a general vibe) who have a very my way or the highway vibe.

There is nothing wrong with having an opinion and presenting evidence for it, but there comes a time when you just have to agree to disagree. People have a right to opinions you may think are wrong, they likely have their own reasons for holding them. I just think that debates on here sometimes stray from the realm of rationality.

But then, I can't present any actual evidence for that, so maybe I'm just talking out my ass. :-)

I read feministing for a year and a half before commenting. Not out of fear so much as not feeling like I had the time to defend myself if arguments did happen.

That being said, I think the key is for people to remember that satire, sarcasm, anger, and even good will don't always translate well onto the medium of internet commenting. It's hard to read tone in short blurbs, especially since comments are often the result of quick responses. I think, though, that constructive, open argumentation is worth it. Vetting ideas is a necessary part of life, and without discussion, ideas are never fully vetted. This notion of vetting ideas is precisely why a space like Feministing needs to feel open to young feminists as well as established ones.

How to solve the problem of hostility among the comments is difficult, though, because tone is nearly impossible to read. To some degree, there has to be a recognition among readers and posters alike that sometimes, comments will seem harsh. Sometimes they will be harsh, and sometimes, they will just have been poorly written (it happens to everyone).

At the same time, there needs to be a real attempt at humanizing the people that we speak to as well as, perhaps, a moment of checking tone. I know some commenters are anti-softening their tone, and I want to make it clear that I am not advocating writing in a manner that is not organic to your being. However, I am saying that, especially if you are responding from a place of frustration or anger that you wait a minute and make sure that your tone is not alienating your audience. Open argumentation is a necessary part of creating and developing ideas. However, hostility often keeps it from being open. I would challenge all commenters to consider whether or not the tone in their comments hinders communication or opens it up. Disagreements can happen without being stifling or hurtful, and all it often takes is a moment of reflection on whether or not the way in which you write is alienating.

Maybe the key to respectfully disagreeing is to respond to ideas, not to people. "I disagree with your ideas on this issues," not "you are stupid/wrong/misogynist/uninformed, etc."

Also, Jessica, I just want to thank you for putting this out there and soliciting feedback from the commenting community here. I know I griped in my previous comment somewhat about what I perceive as a frequent failure of the main bloggers to engage commenters directly, particularly in the case of dissent or misunderstanding, but posts like this are very much steps in the right direction.

I know this is a little late to join the discussion, but I just had to say that my experiences commenting and community blogging here have been so disappointing. After a few times of trying and feeling shot down, I've pretty much stopped doing either.

For me, I think that being a 'new' commenter means being met with a harsh skepticism. I've had a lot of my thoughts totally invalidated or construed as overly sensitive, which I think is a gross silencing tactic.

The second piece that stands out to me, is that as a WOC and a feminist, sometimes the discourse here around racism is disappointing.

That said, I still do enjoy reading comments because they certainly add depth to the discussion. I just know that sometimes I'll have to swallow some of the nasty comments along with it.

Compared to some commenting sections on other websites I've seen, I feel this one is a lot more civilized. Of course, there will always be some heated discussions. Some subjects -- such as race -- do tend to get emotions riled. But I get a lot out of these heated discussions. Some comments do go too far, but I'm against deleting comments unless they are threatening or they are blatant personal attacks.

Thanks for this post, Jessica! I'd get demoralized a lot faster than you wading through the daily deluge of mail - much of which, I like to think, is sent by maladjusted adolescents and/or inebriated frat boys who will eventually get a clue. I don't know if this would be feasible, but maybe find a way to restrict the contact function to logged-in users who have been registered for at least two weeks, or something to that effect? That might at least deter the lazier or more disorganized trolls, should it prove workable.

In regards to the comments here, Feministing is far better than average, which is to say that a good majority of the regular commenters come across as human beings most of the time. Generally the mods do a good job and manage to avoid the overzealous moderation that can sometimes occur. That said, there are a few persistent problems that have struck me that might do with being looked into:

1) Abuse of the concepts of privilege and "teaching moments." There are some, here and elsewhere, who have taken the much-needed corrective that there's no obligation to mollycoddle privilege or sugar-coat education about it too far. The result is accusations of prejudice, etc. hurled at anything with which someone disagrees, and taking that disagreement as an excuse to be gratuitously nasty and then calling it a "teachable moment" or "calling out someone's privilege." In these contexts, "privilege" itself comes off (and is indeed used) as a childish insult rather than a usefully identified problem - and often masks the considerable privilege that the accusing party her/himself possesses. There are a couple of feminist blogs that I used to read and have stopped reading because of this.

2. A handful of persistently nasty commenters. Everyone has bad moments, of course, but there are a few who seem to have nothing else. This is a problem anywhere and everywhere, I think.

3. I hate to say it, and I hasten to add that I've never seen Jessica be responsible for it, but I agree that there are "top-down" problems. Most of the regular bloggers here are great, and there's certainly no expectation that anyone will be perfect and not screw up occasionally (who doesn't?). But I have noticed, recently, a small trend of what I consider unacceptable behaviour - hurling accusations of privilege (without acknowledging considerable apparent privilege on the original poster's part) and threat at perfectly reasonable, respectful comments that merely disagreed with some of a post's arguments, shutting down or deleting comments where it really wasn't justified at all (and it sometimes is, don't mistake me), borderline or not-so-borderline personal attacks as a response legitimate comments that disagreed with a post. Telling people not to comment or read this blog or to get their own blogs and shut up (paraphrasing - some of the wording was less polite) is one thing in the case of blatantly anti-feminist, bigoted responses or ones that can be widely enough agreed on (by multiple staff, e.g.) as completely unacceptable is one thing, and I've seen legitimate instances of it here. But I've also noticed a smaller pattern of... more questionable uses, shall we say, and it really puts me off participating in discussion. I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way.