Yes Means Yes on To The Contrary
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Yes means yes is a good idea.
But, for far too many people, male female sexual relations really ARE a "business transaction" (the guy buys the woman nice stuff and in return he gets sex) - how can we change that tragic reality?
Like millions of people, I've never personally experienced a sexual relationship that was NOT a "business transaction".
I found that, in my personal life, the only way to avoid "business transaction" style sex was to avoid sexual relationships completely, since just about every woman I met socially had that conception of sex and couldn't envision male-female relationships that did not have that commercial element at their core.
For a lot of people - male and female alike - the only way to have a "yes means yes" personal life is to practice abstinence (which, as every school district in America already knows, is a very hard sell).
Also, I didn't like the comment by one of the hosts of the show that rape is a "mental illness" and since, allegedly mental illness is "genetically encoded" we'll always have rape.
Lots of "normal" men, with no mental problems whatsoever, commit rapes!
Rape comes out of the same mindset where access to women's bodies is a commodity, so if you don't want to pay for it, or can't afford to pay, you 'steal' it by raping the woman.
As horrible and disgusting as that is, it's NOT mental illness - it's the natural product of viewing sex as a commodity in a society based on the buying and selling of commodities.
So claiming that rapists are crazy is, when you boil it down, a backhanded defense (or at the very least a veiled apology) for the rape culture that breeds rape.
That stuck out with me too! The odd assumption that committing rape was a "mental illness".
I do believe that some people who commit rape may have mental illness(es) as a contributing factor, but as you said, not ALL rapists do. Perfectly healthy people commit rape too. Damnit.
I'd like to believe rape could be wiped out, but let's start decreasing the number of rapes first, shall we? I think that's very possible indeed. It will take a shift in thinking, and the more we talk about what's wrong, and how to fix it, the better things will get I believe.
I'm really happy that someone other than myself is fed up with our cultural view that women aren't actually sexual beings capable of making decisions for themselves!
I've personally never been in a relationship that was a "business transaction", nor do I know anyone who was! Sure, my boyfriend has bought me things, and we've had sex, but the two aren't directly related! Why do they have to be? The assumption that the two always are, by men or women, is really very sad to me. I spend time with my boyfriend because I enjoy his company, that's how we got to being in a committed relationship, and I have sex with him because I enjoy having sex with him! Whether or not he buys me things is completely irrelevant.
The idea that women's sexuality, that women themselves are a commodity really pisses me off. "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?"
That statement makes me see red. I mean, first off, if I really was going to buy a cow, I would want to taste her milk before I bought her. What if I didn't like the taste? I don't want to be stuck with a cow whose milk I didn't enjoy. I'd also want to taste it often. I'd want to know just how often the cow gives milk. What if I like more milk than the cow will produce?
You can see there is a correlation with people. You better believe I'm going to have sex with a potential partner. I want to know if we like the same kind of sex, if we like having it at similar enough regularity. The most terrible fate I can think of is being in a relationship with someone I don't like having sex with, or where I don't get enough sex. I like sex, I see no shame in it.
The other issue with that statement of course, is the one the ladies in the clip pointed out. That women's virginity is some kind of commodity to be guarded. Why do women only have worth if they are virgins?
Yes means Yes is a wonderful idea. I think both men and women need to get comfortable with the fact that both sexes are in fact sexual, and that's okay.
Maja Dren,
You're very lucky if you've never been in a relationship that wasn't a business transaction.
Because many relationships are like that - and, personally, every relationship that I've ever been in WAS a business transaction.
Maybe we move in different social circles - I'm a union carpenter who lives in a poor working class community of color in New York City - so that's why you're experience varies.
But, for every woman I ever dated, it was very important that I was a union carpenter who made good money, and pretty much the only reason they dated me was because of my income and that they could get money from me in return for their company.
To this day when I meet women in bars and other similar places the first thing they want to know is what I do for a living and it's obvious that their primary interest in me is financial.
I'm sure I'm not the only person that's had that experience.
Many of my male friends and co-workers have similar experiences with women, and I have women friends who's main criteria for picking a man is what he does for a living, if he has a car and if so how nice a car is it.
That's far from a scientific sample - but at least in my social circle, sex as commodity exchange is the norm, and "yes means yes" cashless female sexuality is rare to nonexistent.
GREGORYABUTLER,
I come from *the* worst neighbourhood (according to the cops) in the city I grew up in. My Pa worked for the city in Parks and Recreation. We did okay, but we were still poor. I don't think the kind of men I've met has anything to do with how/where I grew up, but how I choose to seek them out.
I think the biggest reason I've NEVER and will never have a relationship that's a 'business transaction' is because I choose not to. Luck has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with who I decide to associate with, and what my expectations are for whatever kind of relationship I decide to pursue, be it friendship, or otherwise.
Frankly, one of the first questions I ask anyone I'm meeting for the first time is what they do for a living. It's not because I'm looking for them to support me! It's because I want to learn about them. I think what you do says something about you, as does whether you like your job, etc. I see it as part of getting to know someone, it's one of many questions I ask. For romantic partners, you bet your ass I want to know what they do, mostly because I want to know they can support themselves. It's perfectly natural to want to know if a potential mate is capable of taking care of themselves. Don't you want to know the women you are dating have jobs and can take care of themselves??
I'm not trying to discount your experience, I'm just saying not everyone asks what you do because they want something from you. Expectations and preconceived notions colour experience.
Next time a woman asks you what you do for a living, try not to automatically think she wants you for your money. Perhaps if you view it as her trying to get to know you better, things might turn out differently?
As an aside, it could just be you are fishing in the wrong pond, so to speak. I personally have never had any luck finding anyone worth spending time with in a bar/club, etc. as they really aren't the kinds of places I'd normally want to go to, but of course, your milage may vary.
Actually, when I meet a woman, I'm a lot more interested in her looks and personality than in her vocational history.
So no, I usually don't ask what they do for a living - unless it comes up naturally in conversation (they start complaining about their job, or they say how much they enjoy what they do ect).
As for "how they support themselves" - honestly, if I'm not legally married to the person (and therefore 50% responsible for their debts) it's NONE OF MY DAMNED BUSINESS and pretty rude of me to ask!
These days, that's a conversation stopper for me - unless you're also a carpenter (and we actually have the job in common) what I do for a living and how I pay my bills is none of your business until and unless we end up filing a joint tax return somewhere down the line!
I've dated unemployed women before - so their ability or lack of ability to pay their bills is totally irrelevant to me dating a person.
As for me assuming that women ask about my job for golddiggerish reasons - it's all in HOW THEY ASK.
Other than women carpenters, who share my occupation, I've never had anybody ask me why I became a carpenter, or what I like about the job, or what I don't like.
They do ask about the money!
I even dated somebody who did her research so thoroughly that she knew the hourly wage that New York City union carpenters make, and what day we receive her vacation checks on!
She had a close friend who was married to a union carpenter - and she had told her friend's husband that she "wanted to meet a carpenter or a teamster" (not because she found our work interesting - but because of how much money we make)
Not "meet a nice guy"
Or "meet a good looking guy"
But "meet a carpenter or a teamster"
And yes, I know from hard personal experience that those women know the hourly wage (to the decimal point) of men in those fields!
I've also known women who only date police officers or firefighters - not because they care about public safety, but because they know those are the highest paying civil service jobs in the City of New York.
One of my sister's best friends asked to be introduced to me when she broke up with her baby's father - he was an ironworker, I'm a carpenter, the wage scales are similar and, once she knew that I made the kind of money her ex did, she was interested.
We had nothing in common at all - but she liked what my pay stub looked like.
FORTUNATELY, that didn't go anywhere!
As for meeting different kinds of women, I wished that my life worked like that.
Unfortunately, I tend to attract these kind of financially predatory women.
Never had any luck with women who shared my political views - which is really unfortunate for me, since political activism is a big part of my life. But I've had a hard time finding age appropriate single women in that sphere.
And the single women I do meet couldn't care less about my political beliefs - but they like my pay stubs.
So I'd love to see a "Yes Means Yes" world - but I really couldn't imagine me being able to be sexually active in a world without commercialized sex.
And, out of disgust, I've stopped being sexually active in this world of business transaction sex (which is a hard decision for a man to make - since we're not allowed by society to be celibate, if you're a man, and you're not sexually active, this society brands you as a failure).
So count yourself very lucky that commerce doesn't enter into your sex life.
Because, at least in my experience, that's pretty damned rare!
Yeah, I agree with the previous posters who felt irritated with the suggestion that rape and mental illness are closely correlated. I'm not saying that people with mental illnesses don't rape, or that some rapists don't have mental illnesses, but it seems like a pretty easy way out in the end. Does anyone know if there is any statistical relationship between mental illness and tendency toward sexual assault? I'd be interested to know... As if those of us with mental illness don't suffer from enough stigma and infantilization already.
I agree with this. Why dont we have any workshops for men and young boys on how to treat women , and not be a victimizer. This isnt a womens issue, its an issue women have to deal with, because society would rather blame women than accept that this is a problem for men, and offer solutions. Why do I have to know what I can and cant do in order to not be raped, why do I have to change myself in order to make sure I am safe. This is where women are still unequal.