Hey all - Sorry for the late post. Had some technological glitches.
Thanks!
Hi Prof. Foxy,
I have been married for 4 months and up until about 2 and half months ago, our sex life had been ok, but not as frequent as I'd like. We have very different work schedules so I attributed the infrequency to that. Two months ago I discovered that my husband views porn online a few times a week. This upset me greatly because I was in a relationship with someone previously who was fairly addicted to porn and who had very little interest in sex with me as a result. I ended that relationship hoping not to encounter the same problem again. When we were engaged my husband had mentioned liking porn but I had no idea what the details were. We should have had a big discussion about it then, but didn't. So now I make this recent discovery and am devastated because I immediately think he's also addicted like my ex and prefers porn to real sex because that's how it appeared initially. I don't think that's true because after speaking with him about it at the time and on subsequent occasions, we've been much more open about our sex life and it's really improved considerably.
My problem is that I'm very, very uncomfortable with his porn use. My other ex-boyfriends were not regular porn users, so my only previous experience with it was with the ex with the porn problem. When I first confronted my husband, he couldn't understand why I was so upset by it. He doesn't think it's a big deal, and he says he does it because he enjoys it and it has nothing to do with me. He doesn't really use it to masturbate and I believe him on that, but he likes to get turned on by it. I would actually much prefer if he were masturbating, just not to porn. I have strong ideological issues with most pornography and it's depiction of women. I know his use of porn predates our relationship, but I'm really afraid it's going to progress into a problem.
My husband hasn't had a lot of experience in long term relationships, which is why he developed the porn habit in the first place, but now that he's married I feel like porn is bachelor behavior. We do have a good sex life now, and that's so important to me, but he's still viewing porn when I'm not around. I saw more sites on his computer today and asked him about them. We are better able to communicate about the issue and I don't want to say it's me or the porn, because I'm not his mother but I cannot stop worrying and obsessing, basically, about it. I cannot help taking it personally and feeling angry and worried that every time I'm not around he's looking at porn. It's affecting my self esteem because when we do have sex, I think it's not me he really wants or is turned on by, it's the images he sees on the computer. I think I'm probably overreacting, maybe because we are married such a short time, but I'm really having a lot of difficulty handling this, so I hope you can help. He doesn't want to stop, but I really hate that he does it and I truly don't understand why he needs it so much.
Thanks so much for any advice you can offer!
Sincerely,
Paranoid Wife
Hi Paranoid -
Let's put aside the porn issue for a second. Past relationships can be great things. Ideally, they should teach us about ourselves: what we like/dislike in a partner, what we like/dislike about ourselves in relationships and what we need or should avoid in our next partner. Unfortunately, past relationships often leave scars that we continue to feel in our new relationships. We need to address those scars with our next lovers. I think you realize you should have addressed your now husband's porn usage earlier. Another one of the hardest, and most necessary, things to do is to heal from the old relationships before moving on to a new one. Your comments about your ex's porn problem reflect that you have not healed from that. It will be hard for you to see your new boyfriend's porn usage in any light except the negative glare cast by your ex's problem.
There are a couple of assumptions in your letter that I would like to focus on.
1. Not being in a long-term relationship is the reason he developed a porn habit: one does not correlate into the other. Viewing porn, and the masturbation that often accompanies it, are not a reflection on a person's current or past relationship status. Some people who have never had a long-term relationship do not watch porn and others who are serial relationshipists watch porn constantly. Porn is not bachelor behavior; it is a person's behavior regardless of relationship status.
2. The same is true for being addicted to porn equaling not wanting to have sex with one's partner: many people watch a lot of porn and still want to have sex with another person. I am not saying this was not a problem in your relationship. You clearly felt isolated and undervalued and his porn watching exacerbated that, but his lack of sexual interest was likely more than just his porn watching.
I am really happy that you and he have discussed and subsequently improved your sex life. It shows that you are able to talk about difficult issues and work towards improvement - important in any relationship.
You are clear about your issues with porn 1. Ideological issues with how women are portrayed in porn, 2. It will become an obsession, and 3. How it affects your self-esteem. It is very hard to change a person's behavior around porn and I think your best chance is to find a compromise.
Let's address them one-by-one.
1. Ideological issues - this may be the hardest to get past. The majority of mainstream porn portrays women in hideous, demeaning ways. Would it be better if you watched porn that was put out by women or shows women in strong roles? What about the work of Nina Hartley or Belladonna? What about porn by partners Shar Rednour and Jackie Strano?
2. Obsession - Some people are alcoholics, some people have a drink once in awhile. It sounds like your ex had an addiction and your husband has an occasional experience. Should the two of you have a conversation in which you agree upon what occasional watching means? Twice a week? Once a week? Once a month? Once it is agreed, you have to trust. I doubt you will ever understand, but I am not sure you need to understand. You just need to make this situation as positive as possible.
3. Your self-esteem - this one comes down to you. Your husband cannot rebuild it, only you can. He has chosen you, you have chosen him. He sees other beautiful women every day, you see other beautiful women. You still want each other. You are still worth having.
You are in a difficult situation. You two have clearly talked about difficult situations in the past and the two of you need to do that again. You may need to find a place of least discomfort instead of striving for perfect comfort.
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This is excellent advice.I would like to add is that it's unrealistic for you to think he that will never desire to have sex with anyone else. You should expect him to restrain this desire out of his commitment to you. You should expect him to continue desiring. But to expect him to never get turned on by another person goes against his biology. Have you never thought of being with another man?
If you have issues with the production of porn, you can try recommending that he looks at alternatively-made or amateur porn. The latter may have other issues--both parties may not know or approve of it's distribution online--but it usually doesn't have the same problems with the treatment of female performers. Porn is way hotter when the women look like they are enjoying themselves!
It's always dangerous to try and be the "porn police" - a lot of men resent it (I know I would) and I GUARANTEE it will lead him to hiding his "unapproved" porn use from you.
He's already started lying to you about the porn - that BS about how he's not masturbating to the porn he watches is, more likely than not, a flat out lie!
Almost all men watch porn for purposes of masturbation - cause that's what pornos are made for!!!
Those movies are usually badly written and poorly acted - their sole purpose is to serve as masturbation aides for men.
If a man claims he's watching them for non masturbatory purposes, he's probably lying - because he thinks (probably correctly) that you'll fly into a rage if you knew he was masturbating to other women.
The "porn police" act will only lead to more lies from him to you - and lying is not the basis of a healthy relationship.
Look, American men are taught that we're supposed to be polyamorous, and to want sex with more than one person, no matter what our relationship status is.
American women, on the other hand, are taught to be monogamous, and that it's forbidden to fantasize about anybody else once you're in a relationship.
These two thought patterns are 180 degrees opposite (and the belief that's taught to men happens to be more appropriate to homo sapien sexual biology than the one that's taught to women) - so, quite naturally, when people with these two diametrically opposed belief systems come together in a relationship, there will be problems.
American women are also taught that it's their job to manage relationship conflict, and "make the relationship work" and they are deficient as women if they do not "make it work".
Men are not at all subject to that kind of psychological pressure in a relationship.
Also, for a lot of American men, masturbating to porn is a safe outlet for those desires while in a relationship - it's a way of having a virtual harem without having to cheat on somebody you actually love, cherish and respect.
Setting yourself up as the "porn police" - rationing out his porn use, censoring which porn he's allowed to watch, putting his computer under surveillance ect - is only going to cause you a lot of misery.
You do have a right to sex - that's a fundamental part of marriage or any other kind of long term romantic relationship.
So you can, and should, demand that he have sex with you a certain number of times a week.
And you have an absolute right to demand that he not have real world sex with any other real world woman.
But let him watch, and masturbate to, his porn - even the stuff you don't like politically. Don't try and be an amateur CIA agent, spying on his computer, don't try to force him to watch "female friendly" porn, just let him have that area of his life, as long as you are sexually satisfied.
You do have a right to sex - that's a fundamental part of marriage or any other kind of long term romantic relationship.
So you can, and should, demand that he have sex with you a certain number of times a week.
I just want to put myself on record that I completely disagree with that. Sex is part of most relationships, but certainly not all of them. Nobody has a 'right to sex' unless the UN has updated the charter and I missed the memo.
To say that you can AND SHOULD demand sex a certain number of times is absolutely out of line. Nobody should give the ultimatum "You must have sex with me [X] times a week or else you're a bad husband/wife." It's unacceptable, puts pressure on a loved one un-necessarily, and is tantamount to creating a "Can't say no" situation for the husband/wife involved, which in my books can be a form of rape. I know because I've experienced that kind of pressure and it is NOT cool.
If both partners are willing and WANT to engage in that activity however-many times a week, then all power to them. But to say that somebody should DEMAND sex from their partner? Wrong. It's wrong for a man to ask a woman, it's wrong for a woman to ask a man, it's wrong for a man to ask a man, and it's wrong for a woman to ask a woman. Full stop. Period. Wrong.
Errrr... just to clarify, the second line also should have been in italics as it was part of the quote.
It is legitimate to say "this relationship does not work for me because we do not have sex frequently enough."
Some people require sex to be a part of any relationship that they are in.
It is perfectly reasonable to say "I need a certain amount of sex in a relationship and we do not have sex frequently enough for me."
Some people don't like to have sex as frequently or in the same way as others. This doesn't make them a bad partner in general, but it can make them a bad partner for a specific relationship.
If you've never been in a relationship that has had too much or too little sex for you, then you are quite lucky, but for many people who struggle with issues of sexual frequency, they have to ask for more or less from their partners.
People who have sexual needs that aren't being met are in the right when they politely ask for their needs to be met.
I didn't mean to imply that you can force your partner to have sex with you.
That's called RAPE - it's a felony.
You are free to ask for what you want sexually - and to leave your partner if he/she doesn't fulfill your sexual needs.
Perhaps my wording was unclear there - that's what I meant.
Pressure is wrong. It's true that if sex is a deal-breaker you need to bring it up but you can't "demand" anything from anyone in a relationship. You are, however, free to leave - or to accept the situation. Asking for sex isn't like asking someone to clean the toilet (legitimate demand).
Maybe we're using words differently.
You can present your sexual needs, and tell your partner that those sexual needs are a dealbreaker, either meet them, or you are gone.
That's a demand - and it's perfectly appropriate to make it. Remember, you're not forcing the person to do anything, you are saying that this is what you need and if you don't fulfill those needs you will leave.
"Remember, you're not forcing the person to do anything, you are saying that this is what you need and if you don't fulfill those needs you will leave."
That really sounds unreasonable. Don't talk about trying to work it out, compromises, anything like that? Just "do it or you're gone"? If one partner wants to stay with the other badly enough, it's entirely possible they'll end up doing things that they really are not comfortable with.
I agree with some things you said. Like snooping. I just hate this. Why do people think its acceptable go through their partners things. Communication is key and if you think their lying, then more communication is key. And if you can't get over it...then the relationship probably needs to end because trust issues exist. Anyways.
Just because you are socialized in a different way doesn't mean that you are supposed to just roll with it and use it as an excuse. And I mean that on both fronts. Just because women are socialized to believe certain things doesn't give them a right to just go ahead with enforcing those beliefs on their partners. No one should try to control their partners sexuality. But this also means that men don't just get this porn free pass because they were brought up to not be monogomous. If you like porn, say you like porn. I hate it when men say that they watch porn so they won't cheat. Bullshit. If that's the case, porn really isnt the issue. If you don't want to be in a monogomous relationship, don't be in one. Marry someone that agrees with open marriages. That's just a sorry ass excuse for men who don't want to challenge societal norms. I also understand that our society enforces that people should marry. This should be challenged as well!
Our society encourages men to cheat. Men are painted as sexual savages. Our society defines male sexuality as uncontrollable. That's crazy. I don't deny that men (and women) have sexual feelings for others outside of relationships but a committment is just that. Your saying that your sacrifice (I guess is the word) is not sleeping with other people. Porn should not be this excuse that men use for not cheating. And woman shouldn't try to control their partners healthy use of porn because they feel threatened. But I will also say that I do not find it wrong if a woman (or a man) asked their partner to cut down on their porn usage if sexual problems arise in the relationship.
And as far as her letting him watch porn even if it isn't "female friendly"...that's ridiculous. Well, I suppose I agree with you on some level. If the porn is male centered, which most porn is and that's one of the reasons why the porn industry is sexist, that doesn't necessarily make a man sexist for watching porn centered on his sexuality. But that still can be iffy. If he was watching violent porn where women act as if they are raped, (and possibly are being raped) that would be a serious problem. You said that if a man is watching porn and saying that he's not masturbating hes lying. Well if a man is watching violent or demeaning porn and saying he doesn't believe in violence against women or that he isnt in some way sexist, he's lying. If someone was watching child porn and said..oh well I dont really agree with it...that would be bullshit. So the kind of porn he watches matters.
Even if you don't like the kind of sexual fantasies a man has, you can't be the "porn police". All that will do is guarantee that he'll get really good at lying and covering his tracks.
And frankly, if you're in a committed relationship with a man who's a regular porn user, and you aren't prepared to dump him over that issue, you are going to have to accept it.
You can't change him, no more than he can change you - either accept your partner as he is, or go out and find someone who meets your needs.
Admittedly, it would be really hard to find an American man who isn't a porn user...even a lot of the fundamentalist guys are into porn!
So, it's a choice - accept your partner's porn use, or find a partner who's views on porn match yours.
Actually I know a decent number of American men who don't watch porn and aren't super religious or fundamentalist. They prefer to read erotic stories and/or comics, or they're just not really interested in porn at all.
What's the difference?
I gathered from the information given that pictures and movies procured online were the pornography in question. I think there's a big difference between comics/stories and pictures/movies. There are no actual people in the former. Maybe characters are based on real people, but nobody is hired to perform for it.
I think that brings up the age old question of the definition of porn. By most conservative standards, anything that is intended to cause sexual arousal is porn. Kind of the "if you wouldn't show it to your kids, it's porn" category.
As you depart from that definition you end up with a whole number of them, and the term "porn" pretty much becomes ineffective in having a general conversation on the matter.
It's not about "liking" a man's sexual fantasies. If a man is fantasizing about raping a woman that's a problem. Point. Blank. Period. And he is probably not too far away from acting on that fantasy. Men (and some women) who watch certain kinds of porn have some emotional/mental/psychological issues. You can't deny this. You can't say that all porn is okay. If that was true some of it wouldnt be ILLEGAL. If I found a man watching rape porn or child pornography...am I supposed to ignore it and chalk it up as healthy porn usage? No.
And also, let's not act like all men are so open about their porn usage. A lot of people lie about their porn usage from the get go, even before it's discussed in the relationship. And also if a man was dating a woman that didn't like his porn usage, why does he ultimatically have to lie? For goodness sakes, just end the relationship. Why is lying so much easier than ending a relationship in which something that you are not willing to give up is threatened? If your willing to lie about porn usage, than porn is obviously much more important than the relationship your in, so end it!
I honestly don't see the difference between saying that someone who watches rape/child porn intends to rape or abuse children and saying that someone who plays Counterstrike intends to go on a shooting spree.
The difference is with child porn they are watching someone be victimized.
A better example would be to compare someone watching child porn to someone watching people getting their heads cut off or otherwise executed.
but there's still a difference between watching something for sexual arousal vs watching it out of sheer morbid curiosity.
I think the key word there was morbid.
Seriously, there both messed up. They may be messed up in different ways, but their still messed up.
Therefore the those that watch are messed up.
Q.E.D.
Nice try at the blackmail!
She can find a man who doesn't use porn. Yes, they exist.
And if a woman is with a guy who won't even bother to drop a bad porn habit to maintain his relationship? He doesn't care that much about the relationship or the woman.
He's not worth keeping,
Nice try at the blackmail!
He can find a woman who accepts porn use. Yes, they exist.
And if a man is with a woman who won't even bother to let him watch porn to maintain her relationship? She doesn't care that much about the relationship or the man.
She's not worth keeping.
Exactly
"Almost all men watch porn for purposes of masturbation - cause that's what pornos are made for!!!
Those movies are usually badly written and poorly acted - their sole purpose is to serve as masturbation aides for men.
If a man claims he's watching them for non masturbatory purposes, he's probably lying - because he thinks (probably correctly) that you'll fly into a rage if you knew he was masturbating to other women"
I actually fairly strongly disagree with this. Not everyone who watches porn masturbates to it or at least not all the time. Most of the times I've watched porn (alone) I didn't masturbate - but it did turn me on and that sexual energy did help my relationship.
My spouse looks at porn too but often doesn't masturbate to it. I am certain of this. I am certain other males do this too. But it may also depend on the content I guess. Does looking at a pic of a topless woman count as porn? Because if so then I'd definitely say it is common to not masturbate to it. But even with films I don't see why masturbation is the key component. Turning the person on sexually is the goal of porn, which doesn't have to mean masturbation.
Honeybee,
As you know, there are different social norms about porn - a gender double standard.
It's considered socially acceptable for men to masturbate, and it's really not socially acceptable for women to masturbate.
So I could see why a woman might be less likely to masturbate to a porno - but would instead claim that she got some vague amorphous "sexual energy" that "helped my relationship".
Women are only allowed to be sexual in the context of pleasing somebody else in a relationship - while men are allowed to be sexual purely for our own pleasure.
Consequently, male porn users are very likely to think it's perfectly OK to masturbate to porn and in fact would only watch a porn for that reason.
The savvier of those guys would also know that many women believe in society's message that women aren't supposed to masturbate and that masturbation is wrong - so, of course, they lie about masturbating to porn when a woman asks them, ESPECIALLY if that woman happens to be their partner.
Are you really that sure your man never masturbates to porno - or is that just what he tells you?
"...it's really not socially acceptable for women to masturbate."
??
When did that happen?
It depends what context of "socially" you're talking about. When I was in high school I didn't even know girls COULD masturbate, and when I started hearing that referred to it was always as something dirty and shocking. But it was just accepted as a matter of course that guys would do it.
It's interesting that you say this. Female masturbation is acceptable to US - a group of savvy feminists skilled at unpacking sexism and double standards.
However, I remember being in high school (all-girls, where there was INTENSE social pressure to be a 'good girl' aka prissy, hetero, and not inclined to be sexual in any way) and feeling like I was some kind of sick, depraved excuse for a teenage girl because no one else I knew would ever, ever admit to masturbating or wanting to masturbate. Some of us accepted male masturbation on the grounds that 'all boys do it,' but the implication was that they did it because they were horny all the time and couldn't help it, but we didn't/couldn't because we were either uninterested in sexual behavior outside of relationships or just didn't have sex drives strong enough to want to do it even if we had boyfriends.
And even male masturbation was considered icky. I was friends with a girl who 'just didn't want to think about it' when we were talking about male (natch) masturbation and the fact that all boys/men do it. She just couldn't stand the idea that her brother and her boyfriend (!!!!) were most likely doing it.
I agree there's a social stigma against female masturbation.
But dude Gregory, you're talking to a bunch of FEMINISTS here. This is not really the crowd that has any problem partaking in, admitting to, discussing, heck even BRAGGING about masturbating.
And the poster you're replying to here didn't say her guy never masturbates to porn, she said he /often/ doesn't masturbate to porn. Big diff.
Heck in high school guys used to look at porn in class when the teacher left the computer lab even though they obviously couldn't masturbate to it right then and there. There ARE guys out there who watch porn sometimes even when not masturbating. Maybe you're just not one of them...
"So I could see why a woman might be less likely to masturbate to a porno - but would instead claim that she got some vague amorphous "sexual energy" that "helped my relationship"."
So you think that she just doesn't want to admit to herself that she wants to masturbate to porn?
Also, I know many men who don't always masturbate to porn. For example: If they're watching porn in a group setting (I went to porn parties in college, where people sat around and made fun of ridiculous videos procured from the local sex shop's bargain bin), showing a particular video to someone else in person, watching it in public (like a computer lab), if they want to verify that the content of what they downloaded matches the title, if they want to see if it's good enough to keep.
Some women resent their partners watching porn... Why is it that you think that a males resentment accounts for more than a woman's? You say men resent their partners being the "porn" police but some women resent the fact that their partners want to support fake rubbish like porn (and I mean it really is a FAKE expression of sexuality, in my opinion). Everytime I come accross a purchase on Direct TV or I go to type in something in the address bar and porn sites come up - I feel extreme resentment - probably more resentment than my boyfriend would ever feel if I started "snooping" to make sure he doesn't end up a porn addict like my father.
Really excellent advice. What kind of porn is he viewing? The mainstream standard porn industry stuff is troubling, but there's so many other things out there now. One example of rather non-threatening porn out there is animated productions (Japanese hentai is an example). For these, there's still the arousing factor, but the realistic aspect is removed. (My boyfriend was telling me the other day about one he watched where the heroine gained superpowers everytime she had sex). If it's not a live actor, the women can't really be viewed as competition, anymore than Bugs Bunny would be viewed as a violent threat. Or, another idea would be erotic fiction; reading stories can be equally arousing, but, again, not threatening. Maybe the two of you should search around the web together, challenge your imaginations, and try to find something that turns both of you on to which you can mutual masturbate together. (?)
And, I know this is off topic, but I just want to mention how a strong anti-porn stance in men can sometimes be detrimental (and why I have to have a pro-porn stance now). When I was in high school, I was dating a boy who was raised in an extremely non-religious household. He felt rather empty, so he ended up.. inventing.. his own religious beliefs, and moral standards. Since he was a 16 year old boy with a computer in his room and a lot of time on his hands, he succumbed to the 'temptation' of porn. Every time this happened, he'd come to me in tears, begging for my forgiveness and claiming what an awful person he was. (This was also a guy who would save the tissue every time he masturbated because he felt like he was 'throwing children away' if he tossed out the tissue). Anyway, it's an extreme example, but making porn into something forbidden and horrible can cause a lot of tension.
I just wanted to mention that I've heard about some very offensive hentai porn. And a quick google search gave me some rather disturbing results. There's probably some cool/nonthreatening hentai stuff out there too, I just didn't want people reading the thread to rush out and take a look at it, thinking that it was totally non-offensive.
Oh, thank you. I'm sorry, I was just referring to the type my boyfriend watches (which I've seen, and find quite non-threatening, if a little too plot laden for me). I really have no idea where he finds it, though... I should ask.
Yeah, for some reason hentai and erotic fiction doesn't really bother me. I don't always like the message (sometimes it's really violent and strange), but the fact that it isn't real women being subjugated to the things they are in real-life porn makes me feel a little better. Then it really IS fantasy. Porn acting isn't fantasy for real-life porn stars.
(I do understand that many porn actresses have their job because they want it. I'm not trying to take their choice away from them, it just makes me a little nauseous to see real women treated the way they are in much of mainstream porn)
I think enjoying porn with your partner can be great, but don't consider mutual masturbation a substitute for solo masturbation.
When most men masturbate by themselves, they aren't thinking about their wives. Masturbation is selfish and pressure free. On the other hand, mutual masturbation requires you to interact with your partner, and care about their pleasure. You can't think of Scarlet Jo when you're with your partner without feeling guilty, and when you're masturbating with a partner, you have do deal with any insecurities or issues you may have, that you don't notice when privately masturbating.
I think enjoying porn with your partner can be great, but don't consider mutual masturbation a substitute for solo masturbation.
I think this is an important point. Even if people are in a relationship, assuming that a couple's sex life is generally satisfying to both parties, I thank masturbating is not only common but very healthy. I see it as similar to going out occasionally with out one's SO. It's kind a of "me time" which is no reflection on one's partner.
I don't remember this being discussed, but it seems like when the subject of porn and masturbation come up, if you scratch the surface there appears to be some insecurity about masturbating at all while in relationship. On one of the recent threads (don't remember which) someone made a comment along the lines of "why would my boyfriend want to masturbate when I'm available?"
Disclaimer: I'm not dismissing legitimate grievances against porn. I'm just saying this issue can be more complicated than it appears at first glance, and I'd like to hear other people's thoughts.
perhaps off-topic, and almost certainly an artifact left over the previous painful relationship, but i found the implication that husband's computer/computer use was being monitored by partner (" I saw more sites on his computer today") really troubling. The underlying lack of trust this indicates may, in the longer run, be a deeper issue in the relationship and I was sorry this aspect of the letter wasn't addressed.
Spying on one's partner is not healthy for any relationship - if you distrust your partner so much that you have to play amateur detective, maybe you should reconsider being in a relationship with them in the first place!
I don't think we can assume that she was deliberately spying on her husband's computer use.
I use Firefox as my web browser, and when I start typing a website in the address bar it "helpfully" pops up a list of previously viewed websites that it thinks I might be looking for. For me, typing "f" brings up Feministing, Facebook, and a few other non-F websites I've viewed recently. For this woman the list may have included "Full Frontal Fisting" or something like that.
If her husband isn't deliberately hiding his porn viewing (by, for example emptying his browser cache) she may not have to go looking for it to be aware of it.
I'm consistently impressed with Prof. Foxy's advice -- this time, she anticipated all of my own thoughts on the matter. Most of all, I want to stress the disconnects that PF notes: that plenty of sexually active men look at porn, and plenty of men not currently in sexual relationships don't; likewise, that "porn addiction" rarely explains (completely) that men will pass on sex.
I believe that these conflations are common amongst many women, and it may be because they see pornography as occupying a space that directly competes with real life attraction. In my experience, the two are often radically different: the slightest and subtlest things about a person can attract me intensely in person (while perhaps so much porn is overwrought because it is always a copy of a copy, because it occupies only a visual/auditory space).
Conflating the desire we might feel while watching a movie (be it pornography or the latest Paul Rudd movie) as something in direct competition with real life doesn't seem a particularly useful or accurate move. It often obscures what might probably be more substantial problems for the real life relationship (communication, trust, etc.); and it overemphasizes the importance of a controlling exclusivity over a partner's sexual fantasy, an exclusivity we would never dream of demanding of (say) a partner's intellectual pursuits or friendships.
It's not about what one watches. It's all about what one gets from what he watches. You could watch "The Silence of the Lambs" and think "Eating people is good!". Or you could think "Even "monsters" are not pure evil".
Same with porn. You could watch porn and think "This is degrading, and now I want to go and degrade someone". Or you cold think "While this is nasty, the characters are having fun, because human sexuality could be expressed in million ways".
I've never had any "real" relationship, and I have a vast collection of porn, but I only collect movies where characters are having fun (actors are imitating happy lovemaking). That's why I am unable to watch Japanese porn, because Japanese actresses moan as if they whimper. For me it sounds like they are tortured, and I hate that.
"Same with porn. You could watch porn and think "This is degrading, and now I want to go and degrade someone". Or you cold think "While this is nasty, the characters are having fun, because human sexuality could be expressed in million ways"."
I think porn often has more subtle effects, that don't cause an immediate connection like that but rather are built over time.
I have strong ideological problems with it as well. My ex watched it, and even showed me some of it (um, no thanks...?!) but I don't remember being bothered by it. Of course we didn't live together and he wasn't my husband, so I don't know how often. But I did explain my objectifications to it (how's it objectifying if she's getting paid!?") and that also didn't go anywhere. He also tried looking at porn "aimed at women"-which meant looking at couples madly in love with each other, which could bring on a whole new post about the sexism in that.
Now, I had a point...o, well the reason I wasn't bothered was probably because I was constantly fantasizing about having sex with different men, which I'm not sure if that was an indicator that I was with soemone I wasn't attracted to, or if that's just...usual (since I do it on a daily basis). Ok, my bad-I don't think any of this is useful to you :( But it is awesome you have ongoing communication with him about it.
question that's related to this thread:
my friend has recently gained a bit of weight due to a medication which she is trying to lose. for now, she feels very self- conscious. her husband has always looked at porn and it has always bugged her a little, but now, because of her weight gain, and because they have been having sex less ( he is working longer hours ), she is very upset by it.
they have one computer in the house, and he has the porn stored on their harddrive, so it's not really possible for her not to know it's there, or that he's using it.
he has refused to stop because "she doesn't understand" and "its not a big deal" and it 'has nothing to do with her".
she has asked male friends and female friends what they think, and they all act as though porn use is inevitable, and that asking him to change his behavior is unrealistic so she just better work on her self esteem and deal with it.
what do you all think? professor foxy's advice that the guy looks at sex-positive, female-positive porn is a great idea. so is cartoon porn. but barring that, do we think porn use is inevitable, and ergo, must accept it?
I would recommend acceptance to the husband's porn viewing.
The porn habit likely will not, and in my opinion has no reason to/should not be demanded to change, and I would hope your friend find was to improve her self-esteem and self-worth no matter what size or weight she may be.
Porn is not a bad thing, and perhaps she could suggest to her husband they view some (tame, romantic) video action together that gives them both the "boost" they need?
she has asked several times to watch with him and he has said no, every time...but yeah i suggested that too!
hmmm, that's a little weird. I understand the want to masturbate alone (fun me time) but it seems weird not to want to watch porn with one's sex partner. My husband loves when I join cause we both know we will end up getting turned on and it will lead to fun time. (unfortunately, I have been unable to watch porn lately after I realized the exploitative aspect of the business which ends a habit that I have had since high school :( )
that's too bad. this issue certainly needs to be discussed more, but I would think between her and her husband, or maybe a counselor also if it's a really big issue. However, I can see where the husband may be disagreeable to discussing this with others. Hopefully she can approach it in a way that elicits fruitful answers, and get his opinion on the situation (which might look like a non-situation to him).
Based on what you said, he's always used porn, and the decline in their sex life is mainly about him working a lot of OT, rather than her weight gain or his porn use.
The problem is, thanks to this society's fatophobia and the self hatred women are socially conditioned to feel about their bodies, she feels ugly and unsexy because of her weight gain - so she takes the porn use personally, even though he doesn't mean it like that.
Is is possible for them to adjust their schedules so they have time for sex?
It would also help tremendously if he were to reassure her that he finds her attractive (even though she thinks she's unattractive, since she no longer measures up to sexist female body size norms).
Of course, I'm not hearing your friend tell this story directly, and I'm not hearing her SO's side, so it's hard to know, BUT, it potentially sounds to me like he's not being as sensitive to her feelings as he could be.
Yeah, he may not stop watching porn, and that may be an unreasonable request for her to make...
BUT, he should make a reasonable good-faith effort to explain to her in more detail why he does it, and why he doesn't think she should feel in the least bit threatened by it...
I also don't understand why he would refuse to ever watch it with her, unless it was because she has been nagging him so much he fears she would act insecure and make comments during the film that would make him uncomfortable...
Personally, while I think some porn use can be compatible with a healthy relationship, I think the notion that porn fantasies aren't at all a threat to a relationship with real women is a crock. Heck, all of our ideals are shaped by media images. I'm guilty of it: I can love a guy's heart and mind, but if he also looks like Johnny Depp that's gonna get me wet a lot quicker than your average-looking schmuck. I know (most) men are the same way.
Your friend does sound like she needs to work on her self-esteem though. Has she considered counselling?
Porn use is not inevitable. Your friend should kick that guy to the curb - esp. since he won't even compromise to the point of watching together.
(I'm aware that kicking someone to the curb is easier said than done, and is probably not the desirable option. If porn use is is that big of a dealbreaker for your friend, she should think very carefully about the long term prospects of someone who dismisses her concerns so easily. She does not want to look back 5 years from now and wonder why she spent so much time in a relationship with someone who didn't care about her concerns.)
I think the main issue here is his lack of sensitivity towards her feelings, not the actual porn watching. She is fundamentally saying that she doesn't feel sexy, desirable, important.
On her end I think it would be more useful to focus on talking to him about how she's feeling and less on the idea that he's *making* her feel this way. I'm going to assume that he's a basically decent if emotionally clueless guy. If that's the case then approaching it in a way that doesn't put him on the defensive might get him to focus on expressing to his wife that he thinks she's beautiful and desirable. If, on the other hand, he really is a big fat jerk who doesn't care about her his porn use isn't the issue anyway.
I can think of two good reasons he might not want to watch porn with her. The first is that he suspects she will compare herself to the women and rather than getting turned on with him watching it, she'll get upset and shame him for getting turned on. The second is that he feels like it's a shameful activity and would feel guilty doing it with his wife.
If she really does want to watch porn with him she should find something that really turns *HER* on, get really hot, f*** his brains out and tell him how turned on she got watching it. If she can't find anything that would turn her on to watch, trying to watch it with him is probably going to end badly anyway!
Just for the record, I'm not ignoring that the guy could use some decent advice on how not to be so gawdawful insensitive but it doesn't sound like she's in a position to discuss it with him.
The Professor Foxy reply was excellent! Good luck with that Paranoid Wife. :)
Gregory, I agree with a lot of what you said... But I disagreed with a lot too.
I agree completely with this with the exception of the gendering - women do watch porn too!
I find this... troublesome. Absolutely, men are taught to be polyamorous, or realistically just to be dishonest since real polyamory is pretty well outcast by society. And I also agree about women and monogamy and the pressure for women to "make the relationship work".
The part about masturbating being a safe outlet for men to have a virtual harem makes me extremely uncomfortable. I enjoy porn because I have a very high sex drive, and I am kinky with a vanilla partner. So I watch BDSM when he's not around because he finds it distasteful, but realises this is something I need in my life. (And he watches boring old mainstream porn when he feels the need :D)
Sure, it's an outlet for my drive to be polyamorous, but it's not a virtual substitute for it! I like to fantasise about a lot of sex I cannot have, but it doesn't mean I make up an alternative reality where I do, because that seems almost like cheating psychologically.
I know it's a weird, nit-picky distinction, but it's my feeling on the matter.
This, I simply hope you don't mean entirely literally. No partner has the right to demand sex. You have the right to crave and desire sex. You have the right to work with your partner toward increasing their sex drive. You have the right to leave if you are not sexually satisfied. You do not have the right to demand sex a certain amount of times a week!
I can certainly understand being uncomfortable with him watching porn more often than you have sex, but that doesn't mean masturbation or sex should have a number or expectation attached to it.
This, I agree with 100%. :D
Thanks for the comments, Dana NZ!
I know! Boys will be boys, right!
This letter brought up one of the biggest head-scratchers I encounter in other ladies--feminists and non-feminists alike--
Why on earth is men's porn consumption such a big deal?
I have been watching, enjoying and LOVING porn as a woman since puberty, and have found it delightful to view by myself or with my boyfriend.
I would recommend to anyone uncomfortable with porn, and especially Paranoid Wife, to look for, view, consider, develop tastes as to, appreciate and incorporate porn into their sexual expressions alone and with your partner.
I too have been a porn-watcher from a very young age. I too don't think that porn in and of itself is a negative thing. I do have issues with modes of production and the roles given which often portray women as sex slaves to be used, abused, traded and thrown away. If it's BDSM then sure, that might be part and parcel of it, but it seems that in most porn this is the run-of-the-mill attitude toward women. Not women as humans with desires actively engaging in a mutual act, but women being cum on, spat on, slapped, and essentially skull-f$@*ed in the way in which oral sex is portrayed. I have a problem when I feel like the wide wide majority of porn which men (and women) will be seeing is based on those principles. I have no problem with porn, but I find it INCREDIBLY difficult to watch those which I haven't specifically chosen for being empowerment-oriented. I would imagine that prolonged and constant viewing of material which portrays women in that way would have an effect on the way the viewer (be they male or female) sees women in relation to sex, and a woman's role in sex. I'm very wary of media effects theory, but at the same time it's impossible to deny that a lot of men learn about sex through porn, and if this is what they're learning and all the women are shown to enjoy it... *shrugs* Sure SOME might, but I think it's a bad basis from which to start one's sexual education.
...this turned into a rant. Apologies.
P.S. In case it isn't obvious - I believe that sex-positive and woman-positive (as opposed to rape-positive and slave-positive) porn is possible, and I think there's definitely a place for it. I just think that this isn't the current state of most pornography.
I have to add my voice to that one and say that, in my relationship, I'm the one who looks at porn, and not my partner. He honestly isn't bothered about it. He admits to using it when he was younger, but feels that he's grown out of it. I really reject the idea that a) all men like/use porn and b) all women are bothered by it.
I also like porn that would not be considered traditionally 'female-friendly' - depicting S&M and bondage where women are in submissive positions. The idea of porn where it's all about nice lighting and loving relationships turns me right off! I know that's just me and the majority of women probably feel differently. I certainly respect the right of anyone not to have to view anything they find unpleasant or offensive. However, I want to add my agreement to Rose Jupiter's comments and suggest that instead of obsessing about men's behaviour, we look at, appreciate and enjoy our own sexuality. Why does everything has to be dictated on men's terms? Why do we need to focus on their sexuality and fit our own around it? Paranoid Wife - Find out what you're into - it doesn't sound like you're very sure at the moment. I am happy to accommodate my fella's sexuality because he gives me complete free reign with mine - I think that's the key, porn or no porn.
I would recommend to anyone uncomfortable with porn, and especially Paranoid Wife, to look for, view, consider, develop tastes as to, appreciate and incorporate porn into their sexual expressions alone and with your partner.
All of a sudden it came to me... porn is like scotch.
You may not like peaty scotches in general, but every now and again you find a peaty brand that you could enjoy. OR it could be spicy, smokey or earthy flavors you generally don't enjoy, but you find one that brings it all together brilliantly.
And some people are all like "why do you like scotch" and you are all like, "cause I do, drink your damn beer and leave me be"
and then you have the people that are opposed to any sort of alcoholic spirits in the first instance... because spirits are the devil.
Because my serial rapist loved to show me the (mainstream) porn he was copying while he raped me and then the boyfriend took to copying porn moves as well without my consent. Reason enough for you?
Well... obviously that's a good reason for YOU not to like porn. But I think she was asking why people object to porn in general, not why people would be traumatized by something they've personally had associated with rape.
That may be a reason more than one person doesn't like porn. It's not unusual for rapists to use porn in assaults.
Really? I've never heard of that before. Well, I think its perfectly understandable for anyone to want to avoid something they connect with a traumatic experience like that. But, that doesn't make it wrong for everyone else.
Thankyou. People always find it so hard to beleive that their "good" porn can be heavily involved in such violence against women and yet its so common.
I have mentioned this on several post throught femisting.
I as a research technician (assistant) at a my local university and have a degree in Justice.
One research project I was involved with was a study of all sexual assaults reported to my local police departemtn in a two year time span. I read over 800 police reports and 1400 sexual assault dyads.
I also worked on a project for the department of corrections. DOC was implementing a pilot program to test the effectiveness of a polygraph examination as a supplement to normal supervised probation. A part of that entailed reading the police reports at the time of assualt and comparing that to post-polygraph admissions of the assault (to guage the additonal information gained).
My research gives me an academic (value that as you will) knowledge of sexual assault, common occurances, charactar traits of offenders, prevelance of assault situation, so on and so forth.
The point of all this?
The use of porn in the actual assault is rare. As I don't have my data set with me (and even if I did I am not sure I would quote it directly) the use of porn occurs in less than 5% of sexual assaults.
I cannot make claims of prevalence of pornography useage in offender v. non-offender populations, becuase that was not an emphasis of the research. But my guy instinct is offender usage typical.
How about those people who never report it? How about those in which it is in a relationship and passed off as "normal" and "consensual"?
Well, if it was not reported then it would not be represented in the data I worked with. When it comes to research sexual assault victims are an 'elusive population' due to report bias.
Because of that elusiveness, it is difficult to say in any meaningful way how reported sexual assaults differ from unreported sexual assaults.
How about those in which it is in a relationship and passed off as "normal" and "consensual"?
To me that does not really make any sense. If activities occur and (I am assuming you were referring to the potential victim's standpoint) if the act passed it off as consensual... then it was consensual... As in its not an assault.
If that sentence had a different meaning then I need clarification to answer your question.
That's not what I meant. When women are in relationships and their partner's rape them (and use porn in the act just to relate it back) it is often passed off as consensual, even often by the man who did it. I did not mean where the woman actually consented.
And that is why I am wary of rape statistics. There's too much not reported and too much that's considered in a moral grey area to paint a complete picture.
Fair enough.
But to say there is not a enough information to see the complete picture diminished the fact that the data we do have creates a useful outline. In fact, the data creates more than just an outline.
And it it is possible to collect complementary data from different sources. That is why the Uniform Crime Report (Federal Bureau of Investigation) and the National Criminal Victimization Survey (Bureau of Justice Statistics) are used to triangulate the approximate real incidence of crime in the United States.
Having said all of that, I am not sure I understand how offenders use porn to 'relate their assaults' back to their victims and I request clarification.
I meant that I was using the example of someone who raped their partner using porn in the act rather than just talking about rape in order to keep in on topic to the disscussion.
It's not unusual for pedophiles to use candy to lure children. I guess that's reason enough to be against sweets, right?
That's not what I meant at all. I'm just saying that it's not a single instance for a rapist to use pornography in an assault. I'm saying that if there were a group of kids that had been assaulted and the person had used candy, it would be pretty understandable for them to have an aversion to candy.
Steven:
I was going off of memory, where the stats had suggested 10-15% of assaults, but that's still quite a number (and to me, I guess, not unusual). We might have different definitions of the word itself, but that's really interesting information.
"But my guy instinct is offender usage typical."
I don't know what you mean by this, exactly. Sorry!
BTrigger Warning
Porn generally is not used during an assault, but more commonly used in the 'grooming' process. The grooming process process is when an adult sexual offender 'prepares' a juvenile victim. There are many ways this can come about, but generally it involves some form of seduction, the development of some kind of trust, and the removal of sexual boundaries.
Of course, at what point grooming becomes a assault, the distinct demarcation line, may not be readily discernible (note: showing porn to minors is a criminal offense in many jurisdictions, so that is an easy demarcation that can be made).
When I say offender usage of porn is typical, I mean in it is similar to non-offender usage. I may be way off on that as a result of the research I have done not being geared to collect specifics of offender porn use, which is why I gave a "what my gut tells me" disclaimer.
Oh, I see what you mean now. This is kindof what I was sloppily trying to reference. Thank you for the clarification!
Glad to help, I am but a humble public servant.
Yes! This... And a lot of people have had to deal with families been torn apart by a loved ones porn "addiction" or obsession, whatever you want to call it. It triggered some really fucked up urges for my dad and he's still not right in the head (even with five years of therapy by a guy who specializes in this stuff).
I'm really sorry to hear about that. That's just awful.
That that happened to you is horrible and unconscionable, and I completely understand why you'd never care to see or hear of porn again. I disagree with your use of a terrible yet individual example to draw conclusions about general pornography use, however. I suspect a large number of women's unease with porn is not related to a sexual trauma.
My comment was directed towards the multitude of women who are sexually active/expressive yet still are uncomfortable with porn due to what I suspect is ignorance of how porn can be enjoyable, or have attitudes which can be best enveloped under the imperfect term of "prudery" (leaving out those who understand what porn is and either have no desire for it or object to it on moral/ethical reasons).
Another issue: How the marketing of pornography solely to men and considered in culture to be solely a "Mens' Product", like jockstraps, leaves out a realm of sexual expansion for the ladies?
Surely the reason why they're uncomfortable is fairly obvious. The depiction of women in 90% of porn is absolutely disgusting. I wouldn't want to share my sexuality with someone's whose ideas of sex are that different from my own and I imagine there are others who feel similarly.
I have to point out that 90% of porn may be disgusting To You. It certainly isn't to me.
I said that the depiction of women in porn was disgusting and I wonder why you are on a feminist board if you don't think it is? Surely even people who support porn can see that most of it is tailored to an extremely misogynistic viewer.
well, speaking from experience, in relationships i've had wherein we have a healthy sex life and i feel wanted and desired, it's not a big deal.
but i did have a relationship in which a boyfriend eventually started saying *no* more than he said *yes*. we were having sex like...once every two months, and not because i didn't want it.
at that point, i, like the friend i mentioned above, became very resentful.
my bf refused to watch it with me, so i felt like he was like...i dunno..."hiding" something from me. and the fact that he never wanted sex with me, but viewed porn frequently, well, it was very difficult to not take that personally, and feel extremely undesireable and slighted.
so yeah, in the context of a healthy relationship: not a big deal. in other relationships: kind of a big deal.
What about researching and seeking out ethically produced porn? This could make you both feel at ease about concerns of the treatment of the people in it and also make you more comfortable looking at and talking about porn. I would recommend www.beautifulagony.com and www.ishotmyself.com as some friendly, creative and respectfully produced sites. These may not be to you or your partners tastes but are great stating points for questions on alternative production methods and ideas of the erotic.
Sexual compatibility is probably important for most marriages. I'm sure there are many marriages in which both partners are happy and sexually incompatible with each other, but this doesn't seem to be one of those.
Many commenters have said "you should just accept it" or "your husband should just stop watching." I think these are both versions of Professor Foxy's advice "You may need to find a place of least discomfort instead of striving for perfect comfort."
None of that sounds very palatable to me. It sounds like this is a significant issue for both of you and a resolution is important.
It's important to clarify that there is no "why" to anyone's enjoyment of porn anymore than there is a "why" to the enjoyment of ice cream, penises, county fairs, vaginas or American Idol. People don't have "whys" for the things they like. There may be aspects of things that they find more or less appealing than others, but if you're looking for some childhood trauma to get over, y'ain't gonna find one.
Ordering someone who enjoys porn to stop watching it is as senseless as telling someone who is bothered by their partners use of porn to "get over it."
The correct advice here is: If you can't reach a compromise that makes both of you happy, then the proper question isn't how to deal with the porn, it's how to decide if the marriage is still workable.
After all the recent posts like this on the community site, and now this letter, I gotta say... if you know that the idea of your husband watching porn is going to deeply bother you, you need to have a talk about it long before you get married.
Anyway, my advice to the people upset about misogynistic porn is to look for some classier porn. Its worth paying for if it keeps you from feeling so bad.
I agree. This is something people should absolutely be chatting about before they get into a serious committed relationship. And not just with porn, but sexual expectations in general.
And yes, people might change their mind later on, but at least you have a foundation of communication already established.
On the "classy porn" - for the partner who doesn't like porn, no porn, not even the blandest vanilla stuff, will be OK - and for the partner who likes porn, the clean cut respectable stuff just won't do the trick.
So, unless the objective is a solution that will leave BOTH partners miserable, that's just not gonna work!
I'm thinking that a lot of women who don't like porn might have just never seen classy porn. I'm NOT saying the couple should force themselves to watch classy porn if they don't like it, just that its worth a shot.
I mean, I used to hate the idea of porn based on the little I'd seen and heard about it, but as I've gotten older and browsed around a little more I've found that there is porn that I like.
I know that, speaking for myself, when it comes to porno, "classy" and "female friendly" and "ethical" = BORING and NOT A TURN ON.
I'm sure I'm not the only man who thinks that way.
Then you're missing out on some great porn, man. This one isn't for men, but Superfreak by Pink and White productions, or their crash pad series online? That was amazing. Ethical doesn't mean boring. What about Kink.com or Madisonbound.com? Websites some outspoken feminists on them. Or nofauxxx.com which was made to combat gender divisions and stereotypes.
Porn that isn't degrading and shows a variety of body types and whatever else doesn't mean it has to be lame. If you're into kinky stuff, they have that out there. If you need the guy on top and a girl on bottom in some BDSM role playing, that's out there in fun feminist-friendly ways. Because it's acknowledged that those roles are just a game and just kink, not roles that should be carried over to reality. If rape porn where the lead actress looks drugged out of her mind is the only thing that gets you off, then I'd guess that's more of an individual problem than an issue with the porn out there.
Just my two cents.
And seriously, Superfreak is the best piece of dyke porn I have ever seen. In case any of you were looking for some. I picked it up at good vibrations.
I was going to say, NoFauxxx, MadisonBound.com, and Kink.com! Anything put out by Pink and White or Fatale Media is good, still haven't seen Superfreak.
Also: GoodDykePorn.com, FurryGirl.com, SydBlakovich.com, IFeelMyself.com, IShotMyself.com.
oh god, people actually pay for porn?
I know, the horror, the horror.
There are so many great porn aggregators out there, and then search engines that let you search all the porn aggregators at the same time.
Paying for porn just doesn't make any sense anymore.
The ethically-produced and female-friendly porn is very hard to find on these sites. Shocking, I know. I support what they do personally, I am more than happy to support them financially as well (if I can afford to).
Have ya heard of http://www.beautifulagony.net?
It is basally head views of people masturbating. My first thought was "Que?" but later... nevermind.
If there is not ethical porn on the aggregators sites, or available by torrent, think of all the people that would benefit if you unethically posted it on aggregator or torrent sites.
Do the ends justify the means?
Ah, I forgot to mention Beautiful Agony!
Illegally distributing it . . . I don't think the ends justifies the means with the small productions, though I've definitely downloaded my share of mainstream porn, so I'm sure that makes me at least a bit hypocritical.
Almost?
HA!
"Almost" what?
give that a big OOOPS
"I'm sure that makes me at least a bit hypocritical."
I'm putting my money on him reading that part, clicking reply, getting distracted, and replying with a slightly different version of the original in mind.
As someone who has been involved with and has many friends still making alternative ethically produced porn I feel I can say it is absolutely not acceptable. People complain about how they can't find good porn but when they do they're not willing to pay for it. If you want to see this stuff being made get out your wallet or it will disappear. I've watched friends make a pittance from their work only to have their 'fans' bitch and moan about how they've sold out when they turn mainstream and shave their pubic hair. These ladies and fellows have to pay their rent too. It is really disheartening.
Well then it sounds like you've tried it, so that's fine. All I'm saying is people who have issues with the porn they have seen should try to look for porn they might like better.
(As a side note, you might want to rethink your frequent use of all caps, including in your username. It comes across like you're yelling and its rather annoying. It really stands out on the page to the point where I often think for a second that people who are replying to you are actually you.)
Really? What female-friendly porn have you watched then?
Because I've seen really hot, feminist porn, especially a lot of feminist BDSM porn. If you're not into BDSM, that's fine and all, but "boring"? I can't see how that is.
My issue with most mainstream hetero porn is that, many times, the woman or women don't even look like they're enjoying the sex. It's sometimes very obvious they're faking it, either because their expressions lack any authenticity or what they're doing can no way be that physically enjoyable for a woman.
Maybe because most porn like that is directed towards men, they don't feel like they have to care about that. And you, being a guy, don't give a shit either because you're identifying with the guy and not the girl and it doesn't matter if she's getting off.
So, I don't know about 'classy' or 'ethical', but I don't see how 'female-friendly' has to mean boring because all that means to me is that the woman is enjoying herself just as much as the other person she's fucking. Why is that 'boring'?
Just because you're not the only man who feels that way, doesn't mean that no men feel differently.
Your logic skills leave something to be desired, dude...
Do you ever think about why that might be (you who represents all men)?
No, you're probably not the only man that thinks of it like that. But not all ethical, female-friendly porn is dim lighting and heterosexual couples slowly making love or something like that.
No, you're not alone, lots of men are complete assholes about porn use.
Can this please have a trigger warning? I can't be the only woman who was raped by someone who always showed me porn.
Doesn't the title make it clear that this post is about porn? I mean, I don't really care one way or the other about a trigger warning on this post, but it seems to me that if you want to avoid posts about porn, the title is a dead giveaway.
Rape posts often have the title rape but then have the actual post behind a trigger warning and a cut. There are plenty of people who aren't triggered by rape posts yet it is still done like that because of the number who are. Given that just in my experience with my support group and within my friendship group porn is often linked to there rape there's no reason why the two should be treated separately.
I would just like to add some details about my personal experience with pornography in my relationship.
It is hard to separate someone from pornography, but is not impossible. My long-time boyfriend used pornography regularly and would use it during the first couple of years, off and on, in our relationship. I discussed with him my feelings about pornography and the way it often portrays women. We discussed the possibility of him using pornography to supplement intimacy. We separated for two weeks so we could both decide what was important to us in the relationship.
In every relationship, there are "deal breakers" -- things that simply cannot work or be tolerated by one or both members of the relationship. For me, pornography is a deal breaker. I have a long explanation for this, and I'll only go there if I am challenged to do so, but I'm sure we can all understand that pornography use can be slightly more complex than what is available at face value.
At first, Chris felt like he could not separate himself from pornography, and like the habit would never go away. But after a couple months, he began to share my sentiments about pornography, and slowly stopped feeling a need for pornography. Today, he never uses pornography for arousal. That doesn't mean he isn't aroused by other women or that he doesn't find other women attractive, and I would never be so silly to think that noticing women and using pornography are the same exact thing.
People often say that women cannot understand pornography use and do not need to understand it. If anyone posted something on Feministing.com that said women simply could not understand Algebra and do not need to understand it, there would be a 200+ comment thread and it the post would probably be deleted. Isn't it strange how we are all so ready to defend pornography and question the insecurity of women rather than question pornography use or try to grasp it's breadth within American society?
My advice is to do your best to understand why your partner uses pornography because there is nothing wrong with trying to learn more about your partner's system of arousal. It is not forbidden territory, and it may help your partner understand something that has for many years seemed innate and unexplained. Find out what kind of role you want pornography to play in your relationship, and do not feel like you've been trapped in something you cannot get out of just because it is the status quo. Compromise is key, but understanding is essential, and it needs to go both ways.
I don't think anyone said women can't understand porn. Lots of us have posted saying we are women that like porn.
"I doubt you will ever understand, but I am not sure you need to understand. You just need to make this situation as positive as possible." - Prof. Foxy
I was directly responding to that portion of Foxy's advice. I think it is the poorest advice I've ever seen on this subject, actually.
Oh, I missed that. Yeah I'm not sure about that advice. But I think its saying that a particular person who doesn't like porn doesn't have to learn to like it to accept that someone else can like it without damaging themselves. I don't think its at all saying that women in general can't understand porn (like your algebra example).
i totally agree. when i had problems with my boyfriend, and when my friend has problems with her husband and the porn viewing, the people we have discussed with with all, to a one, tell us:
1. we have the problem (insecurity);
2. the bfs should not be asked to changed their behavior (because it's not a "big deal"), and
3. all men look at porn.
the idea that perhaps her husband can take a break from porn until she feels better about herself, or perhaps that the fact that he constantly tells her "no" for sex and then goes and jerks off to porn, is viewed as less problematic than her "insecurity". same with the porn watching bf i had.
i agree that we all should have discussed these things before our relationships. but our sex lives fell apart during our relationships, and it was only then that the porn use became a problem for us.
why is it so awful to say, hey until we work this out, can you not look at porn? it makes me feel bad. and why are the guys, and others, so willing to engage in/defend a behavior that makes their loved ones feel so awful?
oh sorry, and in case it wasn't clear: i think if i could have understood it, i would have been more ok with it.
i can understand wanting to look at good looking naked people have sex and jerk or jill off.
i can't understand wanting to do that, and not wanting to have sex with your partner, without inferring that the partner is not desired. i think if i could have understood why he wanted the porn and not me, or whatever was going on, it woud have been easier. or at least, less hard.
Maybe there are deeper problems in the relationship.
I could totally imagine being in a relationship with somebody, and being so angry or frustrated with them that you wouldn't want to have sex with them, but still being committed to staying with the relationship for some other reason.
That might lead a person to thinking that they have sexual needs, but they cannot imagine themselves having sex with their partner, nor can they imagine cheating on that person, so they masturbate to porn instead.
I could even see somebody thinking that this was the most ethical way to handle that relationship conflict.
i suppose so. and i totally agree that this could be ethical compared to cheating. in my case, we weren't married. i repeatedly requested couples counseling and he said no. i went to counseling on my own to see if i was contributing to our problem, and how i could help him, and help us. but there was only so much i could do on my own.
i eventually left him because i finally got sick of feeling insecure and bad all the time, and didn't feel it was fair that i was going to counseling and he wasn't and refused to go with me.
in my friend's case, they are married. so it's not as simple.
my larger point: porn watching, in and of itself, is not necessarily bad. but in the context of a relationship where there are sexual challenges, well, i think it can be reasonable to ask the porn watcher to re-examine his or her need for it, or even cease and desist.
I had a boyfriend once who went into this total shell refusing to have any sexual interaction with me at all. He also stopped sleeping in bed with me (which was more devastating on an immediate level).
It took me a long time and a healthy rebound to work through it. After some time and healing we had a conversation about why he'd started rejecting me. Turns out he was severely depressed, had gained some weight and felt terrible about himself, and just couldn't understand why I wanted to be around him let alone f*** him.
This particular guy never really watched porn. I can imagine that if he had he probably would have continued to, maybe even watched it more. I think that probably would have caused all sorts of additional issues for me, and I would have seen the porn as replacing me. I would have worried about the girls being hotter than me. I would have focused on the porn as the cause of my rejection.
In reality it still would have had pretty much nothing to do with me, my behavior, or my desirability. I think its very accurate to say that we focus too strongly on women's insecurities and don't ever talk about the role men's insecurities play in sexual relationship issues.
It is also assumed that the person using pornography is not using that pornography for reasons of their own insecurity. That is not to say that all people who use pornography do so because they are insecure, but let's not fool ourselves. Men can also have loads of sexual insecurities that go unknown and pornography is a great tool for arousal/relief that is pressure-free and totally isolated.
This thread made me think of this recent post: Is All Porn The Same? by Greta Christina at the Blowfish Blog. I liked her approach to thinking about the genre . . . don't know if it's something that might open a new way of thinking about pornography/erotica in your relationship, or what makes "good" vs. not-so-good (or even misogynist) pornography. Maybe talking through with your partner what your political objections are to different types of pornography -- without dismissing the entire genre -- would help both of you clarify where it fits (or not) in your relationship.
I wonder about the almost complete agreement with the idea that porn just is... and that the woman has a problem.
Having explored porn both in and out of relationships, I decided I neither liked porn itself, arousing as it could be, nor liked how it acted within various relationships and how it worked upon some of the expectations of some of my partners. So I decided that I did not want to have a partner who used porn.
In today's sexualized world, there is so much pressure to accept porn, to view it as 'natural' (though what could be more unnatural, really, with fake lighting, music, positions, fake orgasms, retouching, makeup etc), that if you are sex-positive, you are into porn. So it took me a while to come to my decision to decide porn would not have a place in my relationships. Because porn disturbed me and I did not understand why, I talked to my boyfriends, 'checked up' on their usage of porn as a part of my journey.
This woman seems to be on a similar journey: in a sense she seems to be asking if it is okay not to want porn, to ask that a guy not use porn.
After I decided I didn't want porn in my relationships (among other things...) I found a man who actually doesn't like porn, for a variety of reasons. Who has no trouble with sexuality, who welcomes a sexual woman, and believes in freedom of sexual expression, who grew up in a country where porn was open and common and easily accessible, but who, as an adult, is genuinely bored by porn.
So it works. I didn't have to change: neither did my partner. I simply found a partner who shared my view on this topic that was important to me (which is only one of several areas of compatibility which were important to me...)
Ah - dandelionfield, you just helped me condense my thoughts. Thanks. You wrote:
This woman seems to be on a similar journey: in a sense she seems to be asking if it is okay not to want porn, to ask that a guy not use porn.
To which I would reply:
Yes, it is perfectly okay not to want porn.
Yes, it is perfectly okay to seek a partner who does not use porn.
It is NOT okay to ask a guy not to use porn.
KSM -- your post is witty and all, but I think it misses the point. I agree that it's crazy to think "if porn bothers you, it's your problem." The problem arises if you don't talk about porn at the outset, know your partner is into porn, get married, THEN decide you want him to stop using porn. How on earth is that fair?
I've dated people who still felt inclined to lie about their interest in porn, AFTER I declared my own interest. That wasn't even trying to be consistent, on their part, as I talked about it first. They went so far as to call me up in the middle of night, "bothered" by this, to convince me.
Obviously, if they're going to lie right off the bat, you should dump them. But it can take awhile to determine that unfortunately, and a relationship may have built up in the mean time.
Thank you (and ikkin!) for voicing your thoughts. I agree and think it's important to stress that it is okay to not like porn. Sex-positive does not necessarily extend to pornography. There are plenty of objections to made, not only on the basis of the way most pornography portrays women, but also on the unethical way the industry often treats actresses. That's not to say that everyone has to share these objections– if you like pornography, I'm not going to criticize you. But if you *don't* like pornography, examine your reasons. If it comes down to a self-esteem issue, then perhaps your efforts are better concentrated on yourself than on your partner. However, it is entirely possible to have valid, feminist objections to pornography. If that's the case, then you have every right to not be okay with pornography. No, you can't *demand* that your partner stop watching it. But you do have every right to discuss your objections with your partner, who should at least listen to your reasoning rather than dismissing you outrightly because 'men just need porn.'
I wonder about the almost complete agreement with the idea that porn just is... and that the woman has a problem.
I don't think the majority of people on this thread are suggesting Paranoid Wife has a "problem" for being uncomfortable with pornography per se or the particular way porn affects her relationship. What I see people saying is that 1) it is possible to think about pornography and how it functions in a relationship in a variety of ways, not all negatively, and that 2) it is important, in each particular relationship, to communicate and find mutually satisfactory compromises . . . or to decide that the relationship is not working for one or both of you because compromise on a particular issue isn't possible.
It sounds like you found a partner who agreed with your inclinations in this area, so that's awesome!
I don't like the assumption I see so often that it's okay for a woman to "make" or insist that her partner stop using porn [I'll use a hetero example couple here]. Just as it is NOT okay for a man to pressure a woman to watch porn she doesn't want to watch, it should not be okay for a woman to pressure a man to NOT watch porn (by himself). I don't think a healthy relationship can include telling someone the ways you want them to change so that they're acceptable to you. (This is assuming there is no addiction involved and the couple's shared sex life is reasonably healthy.)
For the record, my male partner and I both watch porn by ourselves (him daily, me every week or two), and occasionally together (every few months). Our very different taste (he's so vanilla!) is one reason we don't watch together more, but it's also because we think it's NICE to have your own private sexual interests/personality, that you can then bring to the table (er, bed?) and mix together to end up with a healthy sexual relationship together.
I think it's a lot easier for those of us who do watch porn to accept that - generally speaking - it's truly NOT a big deal to the viewer, and that it has little or no bearing on one's feelings towards one's partner. I realize that porn is not for everyone, so I'm not sure how non-viewers could come to similar conclusions... I'm tempted to say "Trust me!" but that probably won't help, eh?
yes, totally. IF you bring these sexual experience and porn-watching titillations to the table. and if the table you made continues to be there.
in my case, and in my friend's case, we got into relationships with healthy sex lives. our men watched porn, i was ok with it, she wasn't that ok with it but it wasn't a big deal, and then gradually, they stopped wanting to have sex with us.
i don't think this is abnormal. when there is a new baby, a lot of couples stop having sex, the woman has often gained weight and has felt shame because of it, etc etc. in these circumstances, it's hard for me to understand why it's so "wrong" to ask a partner to stop engaging in porn watching until sexual difficulties are resolved, and the couple's sex life returns to normal, or at least, a new normal.
it's just hard for me to wrap my mind around this thing where one partner's behavior is not allowed to be modified or questioned or asked to stop because it's PORN which has to do with SEX and that's SPECIAL so i should just sort of deal with my feelings.
furthermore, it doesn't make sense: if porn "isnt' a big deal" why can't they stop doing it? if it IS a big deal, then why can't i react as though it IS a big deal? and why does one partner get to say whether or not porn is a big deal?
So what you seem to be saying is, just because you feel ugly because of natural post pregnancy weight gain (a feeling of ugliness that is socially conditioned by our sexist fatophobic society, BTW) and therefore do not want to have sex means that he doesn't get to masturbate, even though the fat related self hatred is your problem, not his.
That's kind of fucked up.
You have a self esteem problem and don't want to be sexual, so he gets punished by being denied the right to masturbate?
That seems pretty controlling and passive aggressive.
But, you are right about one thing.
Porn IS a big deal for a lot of men.
For a lot of us, it was our first sexual partner, often starting in the early teens. Porn is always there for us, never judges or gets offended by our sexual feelings and it's never rejected us.
So asking a man to give up porn - ESPECIALLY at a point in your relationship where there's no sex - is a HUGE deal.
no no the exact opposite!
HE doesn't want to have sex. *I* wanted to have sex all the time and he said no.
the situation with the weight gain is my friend's. and she also wanted to have sex and was always told no. she feels, however, like he does not want to have sex with her because she gained weight. she remains confident, enjoying the fact that she has big boobs and a big ass now, and says that she constantly initiates sex with him. and constantly hears "no". and wonders if it's because she's being compared to women in porn, and not measuring up.
in my situation, with the bf that looked at porn and it bothered me, there was no weight gain. i looked the same as always, but gradually, we had sex less and less. finally, we were having sex once every three months or so. i was always hearing "no". i always always initiated. and always heard "no".
that's what i was so upset about, and what my friend is so upset about: THEY--the guys-- do/did not want to have sex with us. but they wanted to look at porn. they inist(ed) that porn was no big deal, that we just didn't understand. we ask(ed) to be included in the porn, to watch it with them. they said no.
secondly, in neither case was anyone denying anyone the right to masturbate. people can masturbate without porn.
In those cases it sounds like there are problems in the relationship besides porn use. If your husband would rather look at porn than have sex with you, then that's worth discussing and figuring out what's going on, but I don't think that removing the porn would at all remove the problem. You said he used to look at porn and have sex with you (or your friend or whoever we're discussing), so if something has changed its not the fact that he looks at porn. And if a man is turned off by his wife's weight gain that's not good, but its not because of porn-- he can just as easily compare her to what she looked like before, or what other women on the street look like.
And I think its funny how people always say that restricting porn isn't restricting masturbation. Yeah, technically its not, but its telling someone they can't masturbate in the way that they enjoy masturbating. Its like if you take a person who loves ice skating and you say "oh, I'm not saying you can't exercise, I'm just saying you can't ice skate. You can still totally go jogging. No big deal."
I think a time when you've decided you don't want to have sex is the most unfair time to tell your partner he can't masturbate (at all, or in his preferred way). Imagine if your husband said "honey, I threw out my back so we won't be able to have sex for a few months. So, I want you to get rid of your vibrator because if I don't feel up for having sex you don't get to enjoy your sexuality either."
I see now I misunderstood what you were saying, but my comment still stands in general :-)
If you try to "police" your boyfriend/husband's porn, he's going to be angry and think you're a bitch. Best to toe the line, really, because a man's God-given, evolutionary determined right to view porn is far more important than a woman's desire for her partner to respect her feelings on pornography. Expecting a man to abstain from porn is like asking him to not breathe or eat. They need it.
Even though almost all mainstream porn seems to denigrate women, it doesn't affect men's perceptions of sex and women. There's nothing really degrading up getting choked on a cock or having someone come all over your face. And porn exists in a vacuum - a guy can watch lots of gangbang porn with barely legal actresses, with titles that often contain the words "bitch" and "ho", but it's not going to influence him to think of women as interchangeable, barely human pussy who exist merely for his pleasure. Because if this kind of sexist thinking was common, we'd have a society where street harassment was ubiquitous, women were judged mostly on their looks, human trafficking was rampant, older men would prey on underage females, and the majority of rapists would never get convicted. Clearly, this is isn't the world we live in - there isn't any misogyny and the majority of men respect women and their autonomy.
Media and advertising have no influence on humans, thus neither does pornography. And the reason that the majority of porn is sexist isn't because that's what the average viewer wants, it's just all that's out there. Unlike other examples of supply and demand, it has nothing to do with what the customer wants. So if your man has a habit of watching violent or degrading images of women, that's not his choice. It's just that female-friendly porn is so hard to find.
So remember, if porn bothers you, it's your problem. Men aren't going to stop watching porn - it's hardwired! They've been looking at internet porn and DVDs since the dawn of man, and they certainly can't live without it now. Suck it up, learn to ignore it, and remember - your feelings don't really count. The most important thing is that your man has access to lots of images of young women and girls getting fucked (because men get bored fucking the same person all the time - they need variety). Nothing is more important than that male sexuality be catered to. If men don't have this release, at best they'll get angry, at worst, they'll rape us out of frustration. Suck it up, girls! Learn to stop worrying and begin to love porn.
Really, the best thing to come out of late 20th century feminism is the acknowledgment by feminists that men are completely different from women - they're visually oriented, have a higher libido, need constant sexual stimulation, and are incapable of being satisfied with one sexual partner. I think this prevailing view of sexuality will be a great service to our daughters: the earlier we know our place as a sex, the better male/female relationships will be. We can only hope that things will only improve in the future, and that little girls growing up today will be raised to know that they're just pussy-in-training, and that they will never find a mate who doesn't love porn, go to strips clubs, or have the occasional romp with a prostitute. It's just how men are.
you. are rad.
I started reading this post and thought "Wait, what. the. fuck."
BUT THEN I REALIZED THAT I LOVE YOU.
Whole heartedly seconded!!
Just *awesome*
Kim
KSM, you seem to be saying that the root of all sexism in the world is porn.
Funny, Saudi Arabia, from what I've read, is a MASSIVELY sexist place - and there is almost no porn in that country!
The same could be said for Malaysia, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia and I could go on.
Is America a sexist society - yes.
Is that sexism created by porn - NO.
Sexism is a product of the private property system, and the need for men (in particular, men with property) under that system to control female sexuality, to guarantee that the kids they are supporting and who will inherit their property are in fact their biological children.
That's the short version of why there is sexism (whole books have been written on that subject) but it's basically valid.
So, is sexism created by porn?
NO.
Sexism predated porn, and sexism exists even where there is no porno.
Is porn sexist.
Of course - just like everything else in our society, including the very ideas we have about what is and isn't a good relationship.
So porn is sexist just like romance novels are sexist.
With that said, will emotionally blackmailing a partner who's socially conditioned to looking at porn lead to a happy relationship?
Probably not.
It probably will lead to a relationship filled with lies, deceit and poor to nonexistent communication.
It's perfectly OK to hate porn, and to refuse to be in a relationship with a man who's into porn, and to consciously seek out men who don't look at porn, and to dump a partner who's a porn user.
It might be difficult to find an American man who's not a porn user.
You also might have the problem of finding men who love you so much that they'd lie about their porn use, just because they know you hate porn so much (but they need to have porn in their lives).
Some of these men can be VERY GOOD LIARS - and if they have any kind of IT skills at all, they might become very skilled at hiding their porn use from you.
Or, you can compromise - recognize that your man is just as much a product if this society as you are, and consequently, he more likely than not has a longterm relationship with porn, a relationship that predates his relationship with you, and is a lot less conflict and rejection filled than any of his relationships with real women.
This is a discussion that's often had on this site. It's the reason people speak out against sexist advertising, the reason that they dislike only pink fashion dolls being marketed at girls, the reason that they talk about fatphobia and how the media depicts it.
The morals and messages in media do not only reflect the values in our society, they perpetuate them. It's a chicken-and-egg question. Did porn create sexism? Probably not. Does porn perpetuate sexist attitudes? Probably. Maybe not all of it, but a fair chunk of it is sexist.
Our sexuality is not divorced from the world that we live in. The discovery of types of sexual things we prefer doesn't happen in a vacuum. Things are connected. We're willing to condemn other types of media, such as movies, TV and music, but when it comes to porn, suddenly, criticism and analysis gets limited. Of course everyone is "allowed" their sexuality. You can't force someone to change. But I see no issue in asking someone to stop doing something that makes you feel terrible - whether it be smoking, being gone too much, saying certain words, or watching porn. I can't be sure, but I wouldn't think that someone asking their partner to stop smoking would be told that they can't do it or that they were the "smoking police".
Also, if she has any type of IT skills, she can probably figure it out. If the history suddenly disappears on certain days (such as the one's she's out), then she might know something is up.
Men who "love you so much that they lie"? That's not love to me. I would not accept that as an excuse. "I loved you so much that I lied to you to protect you" wouldn't really fly in any other situation, either. Money problems, issues with the kids, health problems, the list can go on. We all need open communication in relationships, and if you're willing to lie to tend to your "needs", I would say it's the liar's problem. If they "need" it that badly, then I think that's another kind of problem.
Why should anyone just "accept" that something that hurts them is just part of the relationship? It doesn't have to be life-threatening to make someone feel terrible. If my partner were constantly flirting with other people, and it made me upset, can't I ask him/her to stop? Wouldn't it be kindof cruel of him/her to continue, knowing it made me feel terrible, or should I just accept it and try to cast it in a positive light?
Sexuality is not free from criticism or disdain. And it shouldn't be. There are things we disapprove of (which vary from person to person), and we shouldn't have to just change because someone else is unwilling to. Of course that goes both ways, and a compromise is the best solution, but it can't always happen. If I knew something I did was hurting my partner, I would want to stop it.
Sexism in American society is perpetuated by porn. Porn does not exist in a vacuum.
Sexism does not have one specific root cause.
How do you know that sexism predates porn? Are you referring only to Internet pornography? Because erotic visuals go back thousands of years.
There is porn everywhere. Even Saudi Arabia.
I really believe that porn doesn't have to be sexist. And why exactly are romance novels sexist?
I don't think the woman in question would be "emotionally blackmailing" her husband by saying "your porn use makes me uncomfortable, can we talk about this?"
I know American men who are not porn users. They're not as rare as you think.
Lying to your partner is *not* proof of how much you love them. Deceit =/= expression of love.
I think your comment about how a man's relationship with porn "is a lot less conflict and rejection filled than any of his relationships with real women" is very telling. So you see consumption of pornography as a substitute for sexual interactions with women? One that men use to avoid complications experienced in actual relationships with human beings?
Are you a troll?
Or did you just find this blog yesteday?
there isn't any misogyny and the majority of men respect women and their autonomy.
It seems that you don't respect anybodies autonomy.
You don't respect the autonomy of people who watch porn, you don't respect the autonomy of those who perform in porn and it seems like you don't respect the believes of those who are different than you.
Rather than respecting peoples autonomy you cast your own blanket judgments and prejudgment on then in a way you would find unacceptable if it were done to you.
You have dogmatically decided that porn is bad, regardless of its composition.
It's like saying emotions are bad because they lead to anger, hatred, and the dark side.
But sometimes that is all people can see. Their mind cannot handle anything more complicated than dichotomous thinking.
This is probably the most logical thing I've read on this thread. Kudos.
To others who have later replied to the thread:
1. Pointing out other sexist countries that have no porno does not negate that porno may have a cause and effect relationship with sexism. It does suggest that there are additional other things that cause sexism.
2. Pointing out that men will lie about their porno usage if women act as the "porn police" does not mean that women, men, and anybody should not be concerned about porno usage - perhaps different tactics for addressing the porno issue would be more efficient.
3. And why should the autonomy of persons watching porn be respected (in the respect that they watch porn), if indeed porno helps to cause sexism? I certainly don't know enough about porno to conclude that all of it is sexist or causes sexism, but in a stipulated situation in which it causes sexism or is sexist, if sexism is bad, porno is bad.
4. Emotions, even if they are not implicitly bad, that do lead to anger, hatred, and the dark side, are explicitly bad, if anger, hatred, and the dark side are implicitly bad. I think we all agree that sexism is implicitly bad. :) Porno (if there is nothing implicitly bad about it???) is explicitly bad if it leads to sexism.
Does anybody remember this article? http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/feb/16/sex-object-photograph
It still seems that there is some dichotomous thinking going on.
T.V. can lead to sexism. Does that mean you cannot watch Modern Marvels on the history channel because some TV shows are sexist?
There is not a monolithic 'porn' out there, just as there is not a monolithic 'feminism' out there.
One could make an arguement that feminism brings some women into sexism. And then one could go through all of the feminist writings out there and make a case for ostracizing feminist. I mean, why would someone read that stuff it it could lead to sexism?
Of course, many here would say "That is not what feminism is to me!" and so forth.
So proceeding in the arguement about pornography as if it is all the same thing, and assuming that one knows the totality of porn is just as wrong as proceeding under the assumption that all feminism is the same.
Both are symptions of simplistic, dogmatic and dichotomous thinking.
Please share with us the pornographic equivalent of "Modern Marvels."
http://www.truveo.com/MODERN-MARVELS-High-Tech-Sex-Virtual-Sex/id/1003186456
That's an episode of Modern Marvels about sex. That is not the porn equivalent of Modern Marvels.
Touche (I wish I could get the little tick over the 'e', what the heck is that called? Anyway)
A lot of amateur stuff, and in keeping with my Modern Marvels example, some amateur instructional videos, ranging from how to perform oral (his or hers), finding the G-spot or milking the prostate, anal, so forth and so on.
As a side note, porn is infamous for horrible plots, one of my favorite horrible plot lines was just a guy narating:
"My neighbor was always saying I should come over for sex...so I did
I lol'd. Literally. And I very rarely do so.
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. It's so nice to hear a voice of SANITY. I thought my head was going to explode with all of the porn apologism going on in these comments.
I call bullshit. WHile maybe not all men are effected by porn many are. I have had one sexual partner who I could tell when he was watching a lot of porn because his treatment of me was radically different (in a bad way) compared to when he was not.
Bah humbug. I replied to the wrong person, sorry. You are indeed awesome and apparently one of the few who are willing to actually critique porn rather than jumping on the pro-sex so I have to like porn too bandwagon. They're two different things people.
It reminds of a (of all things) Bones episode, where Angela says to Hodgins (who's been ogling this woman the whole episode):
"I don't care what's going on in your pants- as long as it stays in your pants."
This is a bit off-topic, but: why do so many people, even on this thread, refer to watching porn as "using" porn?
After all, we consume many things in our lives, but I rarely see someone refer to reading a book as "using" a book or watching a non-pornographic film as "using" a film.
We eat meals, we drive cars, we watch films, we read books, we play video games.
But the minute any of that involves porn, we're "using" it. The term "to use" has a lot of negative baggage (being used by someone is bad, being used means something is no longer clean, or pure, or valuable), and when applied to porn, it's especially negative since so much of the mainstream stuff treats women as objects to be "used." So, when people refer to watching porn as "using" it really bugs me. Then again, I am a writer/editor and an English major, so how words are used (pun intended) is extra important to me.
I think its shorthand for "using porn for masturbation." That's why you even see some distinction upthread between watching porn and using porn.
But you don't literally *use* porn. You *watch* porn in order to masturbate. This is somewhat different than, say, *using* a vibrator to masturbate. I'm not sure to what extent I agree with JetGirl's suggestion, but I think the idea is worth considering.
You can use a computer or a pen or jujitsu. The grammatical construction means its a tool to some other end; in this case people are using porn in order to become (more) aroused. Personally I think "watching" works just as well because the obvious assumption is that if you are watching porn its for the purposes of getting aroused. But I think in this case both of them work just fine.
Using a person is bad. Using drugs is bad, but what about using coffee to help me wake up in the morning, or anti-depressants? I think the judgement comes from what you think of the activity, not the grammatical construction.
It's not necessarily that 'use' is bad, but that 'use' in this context is bad. You literally ingest coffee. You literally hold a pen. Saying that you 'use' porn, to me, conflates the watching of an image with the use of the bodies in that image. Or, perhaps more accurately, reduces those bodies to merely an image, rather than real human beings. As I said, I'm not 100% on this, but it seems like something to consider.
It sounds the same as "using" drugs. What does it usually mean when you call somebody a "user" or that they are "using?" It means that they are addicted.
That is my association.
I agree that "watching" would be a more appropriate, and more neutral, term.
Exactly. "Using" is a popular term when describing a harmful addiction. "Using drugs" "using alcohol." "Using sex." That is why when someone making an argument for porn says "using porn" it feels like a contradiction to me.
Isn't porn a bit like drugs? Don't some people have to keep "using" it more and more frequently to be satisfied? Don't some porn viewers seek increasing hardcore material? Isn't it addictive? Does it not destroy some relationships? Doesn't it take over some viewer's lives?
Absolutely. Porn addiction is indeed a problem, and is being acknowledged as one in therapy circles. When I see "using porn" I think of addiction too. Which is exactly why it interests me when people who think porn is just harmless use the addiction vocab to defend their position.
People can become addicted to almost anything. Some people are addicted to sex. Does that mean we should do away with it?
In this instance, we were debating the appropriateness of the word "using".
We were not arguing that porn should be done away because some people become addicted to it. There are a million good reasons to do away with porn, but this was a discussion of semantics. I think sex addicts could be said to "use" sex.
Thank you Ksm for voicing EXACTLY what I was thinking.
Question: is anyone else bothered by:
"He doesn't think it's a big deal, and he says he does it because he enjoys it and it has nothing to do with me."
It has nothing to do with me? How can a huge part of one partner's sexuality have nothing to do with the other partner? Especially if the behavior in question really bothers one of the partners and is like pouring salt on a wound?
Am I wrong in being shocked by that comment? If my partner told me that something I was (or "wasn't") masturbating to hurt his feelings and really bothered him, I'd like to think that the last thing I would respond to him is "it's not a big deal, babe. It's got nothin to do with you".
Thoughts?
What if he said he did not like it when you masterbate with a vibrator?
Manual masturbation no problem, but he is intimated that you have to use tools. No part of his body vibrates, so he would never be able to pleasure you as much as an object.
I would think you might say "Its not a big deal honey, its not about you"
Or you would get pissed off that he was trying to control you sexually.
Either/Or
I would hope that a dialogue ensued and that we talked about it. Sometimes you can come to an understanding, sometimes not.
If it honestly hurt him/her and made him/her feel upset, then I would stop. An object like a vibrator is not worth more than my partner's feelings and well-being.
On top of that, porn and vibrators are not really the same thing. Many people object to porn because of its depiction of women (and men, too), the way it's produced and the social effects it has. Usually, a vibrator doesn't have these same things and is just a tool - people aren't tools.
On top of that, porn and vibrators are not really the same thing. Many people object to porn because of its depiction of women (and men, too), the way it's produced and the social effects it has. Usually, a vibrator doesn't have these same things and is just a tool - people aren't tools.
I was attempting to get at adequacy issues. Many women don't look like women in porn, many men cannot top the copper top (battery in a vibrator for those who are to young to remember the old Duracell comercials).
Also, using porn or a vibrator can be very and exclusionary as the user can be totally alone, without the other partner.
Using the example by Paranoid wife, she thinks her paramour does not want to have sex becuase he is getting his jollies, in part, from porn. If there was a hetero couple and the vibrator seemed to be having a similar affect on the woman, wouldn't the guy have the same concerns as Paranoid Wife?
I would disagree, but for different reasons. I think "competing" with porn vs vibrators is different. Vibrators are more about the physical sensation - the feeling of what it is. Porn is more about the fantasy. People often can't compete with porn because it's not quite real in many senses. It's competing with a fantasy.
Agreed that there are many ways to exclude your partner. I'm not saying that vibrators are perfect and never cause problems - I just think the problems stem from different places.
She states that she has an "ideological problem" with pornography, so I do not think your hypothetical is equivalent.
Newbomb Turk: You're right, I had forgotten about that aspect. Thanks for bringing that up :)
If you had to put a percentage on how 'equivalent' my example was with your example, how high of a percentage would that be?
I would place it at about 75% adequacy and 25% ideology.
I wonder what other factors could be at play regarding opposition to porn. Adequacy and ideology spring to mind, but few others. I thought about insecurity (not looking like porn, or not being able to top the copper top) but that is just another conceptualization of adequacy.
Thoughts?
I disagree entirely. I work out, I'm thin, I'm blonde and so really if men are jacking off to the stereotypical porn star really its just a whored up version of me. I don't feel threatened by the women in porn, at all. I do however feel threatened by the men who assume that because I look a certain way can go ont to treat me like that without my consent, because apparently that's how women really want to be treated after all! Try 100% ideology. The "insecurity" BS is only ever touted by those who don't want to be critical of their porn and try to find other reasons for why others hate it.
The 'insecurity' that you say is bullshit is a self-reported emotion by some of the women who have commented on this very thread.
Of *some* women who have commented. You are taking he experience of a few and extrapolating to every woman who has ever had a problem with porn. And I haven't seen any women who have given percentages of how much was insecurity and how much was ideology. Who the hell are you to assume to "know" that its insecurity?
I don't really know. It's different for everyone. There are certainly people who use toys that are using them for the adequacy thing, as are people who watch porn. People use different things for different reasons.
But I also understand that we're using generalizations and "majority of" type of arguments, or otherwise we'd get nowhere.
So, to answer your question, I would say that toy use is probably 90% about the physical sensation and 10% about other things. I would say porn is about 80% about what you're seeing and 20% what you're doing.
I really think there's a very large difference between fantasizing and watching an actual video, though. One is all in your head - nothing is happening to anyone but you. The other is in the real world - even if things are not entirely real in pornography, it's not like they're not people. Things are still happening to them, and that's the difference. You can have a violent fantasy, but watching it happen to someone means that a facade (or the real thing) happened to another person in a very prescribed and specific way.
I think porn changes the way that people fantasize.
I'm not sure if I read what you were saying the right way, though.
Yes, there are issues of inadequacy in both scenarios. However, the difference to me is that what most of what I have read and heard from people using sex toys is that it is about the physical sensation, the fun of trying something new (often with a partner) and that it is something that they do for themselves. People who are threatened by it can sometimes just be insecure. That doesn't negate their feelings, but it does mean that the dialogue is different.
The other side is that people who use porn are often using it because they "need more than [their] partner". The people who are interviewed about it are often very attached to it, do not want to let it go, and in my experience, are incredibly hostile towards the idea that anyone has a problem with it. I know that my experience isn't all-encompassing, but from the people I have talked to about it, it seems to be a common thing. Very few people are willing to give up porn, and those that are unwilling to give it up will often be unwilling to talk about it.
This, to me, is mostly an issue of respect. There are things that we do that we don't have a problem with, but they hurt other people. We have to decide which is more important to us. Sometimes, the things are more important. Sometimes, the people are. But we aren't making these choices in a vacuum. Many men (and increasingly, women) are encouraged to watch porn, to have a large collection, and that it is abnormal to not watch it. Many women are still struggling with the idea that masturbation is okay. If we're gendering these issues (and we are), I think they are vastly different for many reasons.