In a great post over at the Chronicle of Higher Ed, Gina Barreca asks how women deal with sexual harassment or sexism dressed up as a joke. I love this conundrum, because it is SO fucking common. Who hasn't heard some appallingly sexist (or racist, or homophobic) comment explained away with a "just kidding" or a laugh?
For example, after Liz Carpenter worked for the Johnson administration she wrote a book about her experiences working at the White House. The book was out for a while, did pretty well. One evening she met Arthur Schlesinger at a cocktail party. He came over to her and smiled and said "Like your book Liz. Who wrote it for you?"Now, clearly dear Arthur meant this as his little joke. If she had stammered and blushed, he would win the point. He could then say, "see, you just can't joke around with these women." If she'd pounded her fist on the table and threatened to call a lawyer, he could say the same thing.
Instead what Carpenter did was to say in response, "Glad you liked it, Arthur. Who read it to you?"
All she did was take his format and adapt it for her own purposes.
Love it! What are your tactics for defusing sexist/racist/homophobic "humor"?
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I just give a blank look and say, "What exactly does that mean?"
I like it when they get all flustered and embarassed while trying to explain it without sounding like a jerk. It's good stuff.
I was about to say the same thing. If you can't think of a witty response, "I don't understand what you mean by that" is pretty disarming.
And sometimes I add the "why is that funny?" with big innocent eyes so that they'll swallow the bait and try explaining it, which will involve explicitly articulating the sexist/racist/homophobic concepts involved. This also results in embarassed stammering usually.
Along the same lines, I also say, "I don't get it."
I should probably acknowledge that even as a feminist, I am guilty of this in very personal settings. Not that the setting is an excuse, but I have done this knowing that what I said is not a joke - um, in fact, come to think of it, I only do this around other feminist friends who "get it." That still doesn't excuse it, but it is something I often think about...hmm. More to ponder.
Anyway, at one of our Vagina Monologue practices, a woman was trying to help someone else with her monologue and said, "I think you need to say it like you're Black next time!" (both are freshmen/sophomore, White women) and they laughed.
I was like, wtf. So I said, "Yeah, um, what's that even supposed to mean?"
The response: "I think she just means I need to be more dramatic, that's all."
Me: "So if you're Black, you're more dramatic? I am confused."
I wanted to say more, but I think they felt awkward and rethought what they just said, and practice had to continue. So much of how I respond depends upon the situation, while trying to remember that this is not just a "once and a while" occurrence.
If white people make racist jokes to me (about Muslims, Jews, blacks, Asians, etc), I make a joke right back at them about white people. It shut them up, because they then realize how stupid they sound.
If someone makes a homophobic joke to me, I make a joke right back at them about heterosexuality. The same goes for sexist jokes at me about women, I'll say something back about men.
Could you share a link to some of these white jokes? I'm often in similar situations.
i don't have a link, but it was just an idea.
Like, if a white person makes a nasty remark about how Jews are money-hungry thieves (ie: Madoff) or that blacks and Mexicans are thugs, I'll say something back about how white trash rednecks are nasty, incestous perverts who love to beat their wives and fuck their dogs. Pretty disgusting, I know, but it shut them up once they realized how ignorant and idiotic they sounded.
all in a "joking" manner, of course.
Yeah, except most white people (Northern ones anyways) will just laugh along with you, interpreting "white trash" and "redneck" to mean Southern.
yeah, "white trash" is not just seen as a term for folks from the South, but is also very charged in class terms.
I'm from New Enlgand and went to college in Virgina where my upper-class southern white classmates used the term "white trash" all the time.
i know where you're coming from in joking back to offensive people using their own stereotypes, but "white trash" isn't a good one to use.
well-off white people will happily join you in making fun of white trash. in reality, "white trash" people are victims of classism, environmental exploitation (i.e. appalachia) etc etc. it's wrong to make fun of them, just as with any other oppressed groups.
instead, stereotyping white men as thieves and con men because of the actions of some rich white men at wall street is more apt.
if i hear stereotypes of minority women i try to point out how its harmful in the same way that the stereotype third world people have of white women as sluts is harmful.
I don't see anything sexist in that joke at all. It is banter and probably more of a reflection on public officials (ie. the rumor that Kennedy's book was ghost written) than on her gender. I find it appalling that the writer assumes Schlesinger would have turned it into a sexist statement if Carpenter would have responded differently.
Really? That's where we're at as a movement -- getting mad at things we think it is likely people would have said, but didn't? There were no real examples of hidden sexist humor that could have been used?
The writer just undermined the entire thesis or what could have been a thought-provoking post. Don't just tell your readers that it is common, give us an example, show us! Composition, Logic, and Rhetoric 101.
Um, this was in the late 60s, and openly sexist jokes were extremely common. It doesn't mean he necessarily meant it in a sexist way for sure, but it's extremely likely.
"Appalling"? Outlawing access to contraception is appalling. Police brutality is appalling. Creating and enjoying the fruits of an "intellectual" subculture which thrives on misogyny is appalling. Making a mistake about somebody's intentions--and I'm not saying the OP did that--is not appalling.
So-called intellectuals think it's hip now to let one or two women into their circle, but the 60s were a very different time, and misogyny was rife in intellectual and academic circles. The idea that women were capable of anything but fucking, cooking, and bearing children--none of it up to men's standards, of course--was pretty much accepted. In that context, Schlesinger's remarks may well have been less innocent than they appeared to you.
Whoa. Let's back up and take a huge look at the history of female writers! It wasn't so long ago that female writers had to write under a male pen name just to get published. AND, even more recently that female writers have been recognized for their work as women. All Romantic period female writers have been challenged with the argument that their boyfriend, spouse, close associate, or friend wrote the book for them!
The joke in the piece is LOADED with tons of sexist history. Do your research, it's undeniable.
And besides that, her response wasn't screaming of feminist argument either. She simply retaliated, and did it while maintaining a smile. Even if you stick to your argument that it's not sexist, it's still a GREAT example of how to deal with very similar sexist humor.
I don't think there is anything illogical about calling this sort of humor sexist, even if the comment itself was not explicitly sexist. Men teasing women is very much a symptom of the sexism in our culture because it illustrates their sense of privilege. They very much do not expect a response to their digs and pokes, which is generally where the attraction lies. The same principle applies to street harassment.
I know this all too well as I am very vocal and enjoy bantering with people, but anytime I come back with something the guy gets the same shocked look on his face, as if a mute suddenly recovered the ability to speak. I am a pretty sarcastic person, but I often feel uncomfortable when male coworkers seem to be teasing me in more of a patronizing way, rather than as if we are equals.
Therein lies the point of this article, not just sexist jokes, but humor in general where men are using it to keep you in your place.
It depends on the situation, but I usually try to turn it around on them in a joking way to point out the sexism. For example, I was at a work function that had a dinner with a wine reception beforehand. I had about a quarter of a glass of wine left when the dinner doors opened, so I finished it quick then set my glass down. When I saw that my male colleague was just bringing his glass in, I poked fun at myself, saying "I suppose I could have brought my wine with instead of chugging it". He replied "Naw, if I was a real man I would have chugged mine." So I replied "Sweet! I'm a REAL MAN!" (I suppose it makes more sense if I note that I am female and was dressed very femme at the time).
But some days I'm just not witty enough, so someone will make a dumb woman joke and I'll go "HA HA WOMEN ARE STUPID OMG THAT IS SO FUNNY AND ORIGINAL" or something to that effect which is just as effective but usually a bit more off-putting.
I like to do something similar. I laugh along, then call out the source of the humor: "Yeah, rape [DV / sexism / etc] is funny!" It's good way to be non-confrontational but make people confront the underpinnings of the joke.
there was a misunderstanding once where a friend used the word 'hysterical' to describe a rape scene in a movie, meaning she was deeply upset by it NOT that she found it 'extremely funny' which is what most people these days use hysterical to mean. anyway one of the boys that was with us said in a very dead-pan way 'oh yeah there is something funny about rape'. his sarcastic reply was brilliant, even though no-one was actually suggesting the rape scene was funny. i think this is the PERFECT style of reply. even to blonde/racist jokes etc "haha yeah it IS funny to stereotype someone based on completely arbitrary means"
That one sounds more like he was making fun of machoism. But I guess it's in the delivery.
I know this is a little off topic but it has been bugging me lately when people have used the comments to police what/the way these bloggers choose to present their opinion. Not every article on here is going to be a thesis. In this example, Ann was talking about how we turn sexist humor on it's head when we faced with and used and ancedote. Some may not view it as sexist but that doesn't mean it necessarily wasn't. She wasn't dissecting sexist humor, she was asking how we subvert it in our day to day life. I just feel like this is another way of silencing voices by saying 'I didn't like the way you presented your point' and then throw in some comment about this blog not being feminist enough or criticizing a writer for not "helping" the movement is not productive. Obviously if they use sexist/homophobic language etc we should call them on it but if you just didn't prefer the writing style why should you tell them that then their post has been "undermined" or ruined. The point of the post wasn't if that particular comment was or was not sexist, Ann & the women who the comment was made to, viewed it as such and that is there opinion. The point was, how do we deal with sexist humor.
When someone throws a statement out there, and then not only does not give examples but gives an example based on an assumption, it does undermine the movement. It presents feminists as people who will read sexism into anything, no matter how benign. That feeds into the perception that women are illogical and apt to jump to emotional conclusions.
If you want to make up things to complain about, fine, but I don't think that imaginary drama has a place on a blog that claims to speak for feminists (remember when Courtney took it upon herself to define who was a feminist). It makes it look as though there are no more real issues to fight for anymore, so we have to clutch our collective pearls at something someone might have said.
How do I deal with sexist humor? First, by recognizing it and refusing to get upset over scenarios that exist only in my imagination.
But in this case it's pretty clear that it was a sexist comment. Carpenter was a writer by trade, so it's not exactly the same as suggesting the Kennedy had a ghost writer. And people did give women in politics, or women who wrote about politics, a lot of shit in the 60s. Women were expected to be part of the typing pool, not the press corp.
Alright well next time I find something sexist I'll make sure to run it by you so I don't hurt the movement by calling something sexist that you don't agree with.
Wow, see this is the problem right here. The small things all add up to the big things, and yes, they do matter in feminism as well as life. Belitting any discussion because it does not somehow find the cure for cancer or solve poverty is in itself counterproductive. Also making statements like:
"That feeds into the perception that women are illogical and apt to jump to emotional conclusions.If you want to make up things to complain about, fine, but I don't think that imaginary drama has a place on a blog that claims to speak for feminists"
Really? I mean I am getting a bit tired of this whole, we are overreacting and proving stereotypes are true argument. This website is meant to dissect all of the ways, great and small, that sexism affects our lives. If this discussion seems beneath you, fine, then don't discuss.
"undermine the movement"
???
Way to be ridiculously melodramatic and hyperbolic. I guess it's easier than relying completely on rational argument.
Well, it's a pretty well-documented fact that women have had to work hard for respect as writers and intellectuals. (See: the numbers of accomplished women who have written under a gender-neutral or male-sounding pseudonym.) "Joking" that she didn't actually write the book herself fits into this tradition. So yeah, I Schlesinger's attempt at humor was rooted in sexism, whether he was conscious of it or not. This scenario -- that women have to fight harder than men to be taken seriously as writers and intellectuals -- is most definitely not a scenario that exists only in my head. Oh, I wish that was the case...
As for whether or not this issue is sufficiently important, if you don't feel that Feministing is tackling the "real" issues then you are more than welcome to get your own blog and exclusively write about Big Important Feminist Things. I will happily read it and link to it. The bloggers here do claim to speak for feminists (because we ourselves identify as feminists), but not ALL feminists. Which is where you come in.
I have no way of combating this other than to fall into the "humourless feminist" stereotype who simply "can't take a joke". Unfortunate, really. I wish I were witty and COULD combat these situations with something other than "You know that's not funny. I don't care if it's a joke, ALL jokes are based on some kind of perceived truth..."etc.
Bekka, I had the same problem (and thought up brilliantly witty replies hours later!) until someone linked me to a Miss Manners post. When someone makes a personal comment or a sexist/racist/homophobic joke, just look back at them and say, "Wow, that was rude. You must be so embarrassed you said that."
People react in different ways, mostly defensively, but I think it's the unexpected nature of the response derails their little power trip very effectively.
I usually respond with something that makes the "joke" transparent, like "Oooohhhh, it's funny because [women are emotional!!!/women don't know how to write!!!/men beat their wives!!!/etc.]"
Sexist jokes are something that I, shockingly, put up with every day in my English graduate program. Two of the male students like to make sexist comments under the auspices of "joking" all the time. I usually correct their assumptions, and when the inevitable "it was a joke" or "lighten up" comment comes up, I simply say, "Oh, that was a joke? Well, it wasn't well-played, nor was it funny, so I guess if it was meant as a joke, it was a failure." Yeah, so I may fall into the trap of "humorless feminist," at least in their eyes, but sometimes, I just don't feel like joking back because even taking the format and turning it back on them somewhat normalizes it (I'm also always afraid that people stupid enough to make misogynist jokes won't understand well-crafted satire or sarcasm).
However, I do think that sarcasm as a response has its place. Especially with people that I don't know well, I think a quick response that lets them know how unclever the joke is usually works wonders. With people I do know, though, I would rather point out to them exactly why the joke is not funny, in its very essence, in a rather explicit manner. I do think it matters very much on the situation at hand, though.
If the joke is from someone I trust is making a well-crafted satire, then I might enjoy it and play along. Making fun of stereotypes is a great way of combatting them. In Ann's anecdote above, who's to say Schlesinger's intent wasn't satire? Carpenter's response was appropriate and funny, either way.
Oh, I definitely agree that her response was funny, and definitely appropriate for the context. I should also clarify that when I speak of the sexist jokes I've had to endure, they're often quite degrading, and in my opinion, reflect a serious hatred for women. I do think, though, that I am far too reliant on calling people out on their idiocy, rather than finding a way to be witty in response. I think people who do it well are quite brilliant. I have a hard time coming back with anything that doesn't directly respond, although, I'm not certain that my direct confrontation always works.
Well, if the comments being directed at you are utterly witless, having a witty response is much more difficult.
I know this sounds cheesy, but saying "excuse me, my MOM/DAD is a [whatever]!" really works. Of course this makes no sense if the person telling the joke knows you very well or the joke is sexist, but for racist or homophobic jokes this works like a charm. Even if the person knows you well, simply claiming that you have a friend that resembles the butt of the joke can sometimes be enough.
If you can pull this off with a straight face then it's a great way to make the person realize that they're mocking real people. I once convinced a girl who made a joke about Chinese people (it was so stupid that I don't even remember what it was) that my step-mom was Chinese and that I was very offended. I don't have a step-mom, but she was very embarrassed and it was totally worth it. I hope she thinks twice about saying dumb things like that in the future.
If all else fails, the "I don't get it" line is priceless!
I taught at the alternative school for a year when the "that's so gay" thing was at it's peak. When I first started there none of the kids knew anything about me, so several times when they said that I was like "I'm gay, and that hurts my feelings" in a totally serious tone without smiling. Then there would be this awkward stunned silence for a few seconds before I would say, "actually, I'm not, but you can see how offensive that is to anybody who is gay." It significantly reduced the "that's so gay" talk. But my friends tell me that if I hadn't already been pretty popular with the kids it wouldn't have worked.
When I was teaching, I tried to show the kids how ridiculous it was by using other words in the play of gay. I asked one girl who used the phrase how she would feel if someone said, "That's so girl" or "That's so blond" or "That's so x". It seemed to work. I explained that "gay" (and on a different day, "fat") is a word used as omni-purpose pejoratives that doesn't get the meaning across and can hurt feelings. She agreed and restated her sentence as "That's so silly."
I had a good friend do this in a bar when he overheard two people near him making racial slurs in reference to the blue corn chips, of all things. He leaned over and said, "Excuse me, my mother is a [racial slur]."
They promptly shut up.
At work I have to share my space with a bunch of highschoolers, and sometimes the boys will say stuffto each other like "Oooh, you have to bread-run tonight, doing that gives you a vagina!" and I respond really sarcastically with "Oh, man, I have that problem all the time!" which shuts them up real quick.
Another thing is, my boyfriend is a self-proclaimed feminist and I believe him, but he likes to make teasingly offensive jokes like that, and while I know he's joking it gets a bit old sometimes. I was mentioning how I had read something and he interrupted with "I didn't know you could read!", to which I replied "I didn't know you could talk!" And sometimes he'll sigh and say "Why are the pretty ones always so dumb?" and I'll look at him pityingly and reply, "I ask myself that all the time."
If my wit could live up to that of my Texas foremothers. *sigh* Brilliant!
this isn't exactly what you're referencing, but i like to turn blatant sexism into a joke that diffuses the point of policing me.
i love my mom, but sometimes she makes comments on how much is on either my plate or my sisters'. the worst is when she tries to call us out at a family function. for example, at Thanksgiving this year she looked at my sister and i as we sat down and said, "why did you take so much??" i rubbed my belly and loudly said, in front of my very conservative relatives, "because i'm eating for two now, that's why!!"
she was very embarrassed / annoyed, and all my cousins thought it was great.
First of all, even if the anecdote given in the post is not a display of sexism (ahem, it is), it's still a good example of responding to a bigoted or inappropriate "joke."
I would advise against playing along with the "joke" in an attempt to expose it's stupidity (unless you're really, really funny). The offensive jokester will probably be laughing along for the wrong reasons. He (or she) will think you're cool because you, too, find humor in oppression.
Overall, I don't think I deal with sexist, racist or homophobic "humour" very well. Whenever I encounter it, I tend to express my disapproval of it without thinking first, so my responses aren't usually particularly clever.
Example: the main branch of the library here runs a small store that sells used books, and when I went there last week I knelt on the floor for a moment or two so I could take a good look at what was on the bottom row of one of the shelves. A complete stranger, who I'd guess was somewhere in his mid-to-late 50's, came up to me while I was standing up again and smiled, saying, "You don't have to kneel for me."
Without thinking, I said, "But I might have to for the books!" and walked away. I wasn't smiling, and from the look on his face, I'd completely shocked him. I think he'd expected a polite little smile and laugh. Privilege being the way it is, it's possible (or maybe even probable) that he didn't realize that to the ears of this particular young woman who had never met him before, his remark contained a certain amount of implicit sexism.
I tend to react just as badly to jokes or comments that are based on racism, homophobia or prejudice against people with physical traits that are currently considered undesirable.
Her response was amazing.
I wish my brain worked that quickly. :(
My thoughts exactly!
When I started college in the mid-90s blonde jokes were still sort of popular, and I was an engineering major, which meant I was often the only female in very large classes. I don't think I went a single day the first two quarters without hearing a blonde joke. And of course, in engineering they mostly had to do with how much women suck at math, spatial reasoning, quantitiative analysis, etc. So I started responding with "did you hear about the blonde who took the SAT? She got a perfect score on the math portion." This always led to a pause where they would process it and then finally give me a sort of stunned look and say something like "you did not!" I'd respond by asking them how they scored on the SAT. That put a fairly quick stop to it.
But I had a TA in Vector Algebra who was an asshole the entire quarter and singled me out on a daily basis. And the thing is, I had an A in that class all the way through. Anytime I had a question he would talk to me in a really loud and slow voice as if I was disabled or something. And at the end of every verbal interaction with me he'd say "are you going to cry?" I just kept responding "no, are you?" Finally one day he plugged in the wrong numbers when working through a problem on the board and then couldn't get the answer listed in the back of the book. I pointed out his mistake and then asked him if he was going to cry, and everyone laughed, and he left me alone after that. I don't know what it's like now, but the engineering department was incredibly harsh on female students back then.
There's always the old standard:
Why do women suck at spatial relations? Because men keep tell them this (hold fingers about 2 inches apart) is six inches.
Lol- brilliant!
One more:
Q: Why are blond jokes so short?
A: So men can remember them.
Ooh, those are both good one!
"Jokes" are often thinly masked displays of power, ways to mark off turf, and thinly camouflaged displays of hostility.
It's hard to come out with a "snappy comeback" - usually they come to me about 12 hours later!
Sometimes, I find that it helps to act like you "didn't get the joke" and embarrass the person into "explaining" it (nothing makes a joke go flat like having to spend 2 minutes "explaining" a 10 second one liner!)
A lot of folks who express their hostility through humor get really upset when they have to 'explain the joke' - so it can be a good way to get back at them for practicing that type of abusive behavior.
Or, you can also return the hostility, but in the unmasked version.
Nail on the head there Gregory. Humor is often just passive agression. Here's how I handle it (thanks and a tip of the hat to my great therapist who gave me this).
Me - "That was really inappropriate/hurtful/nasty/sexist..."
Joker - "Oh it was just a joke."
Me - "Well that didn't feel like fun it felt like VIOLENCE."
For unfunny or offensive jokes, I usually raise my eyebrows, looking bored or bemused, and say something like, "Yeah, maybe work on that one before you tell it again." I find that people feel really awkward for being called out on how hard they're trying.
Best sexist comment from male comedian before a stand-up comedy show.
I really commend you for doing this. Even if you're not funny at all, you`ll still stand out as a girl. Are all of your jokes about
tampons?
Me-Well, not ALL of them....
just like all of his jokes are about his small penis.
I write my own material. So far, there have been countless short stories and columns, a novel published by Prise de parole and a theatrical monologue produced by the Great Canadian Theatre Company
The Awakening of Sycorax (theatre):
http://www.geocities.com/damunicom/EnglishLanguageFiction/awakeningofsycorax.htm
Oomblaug Day (short story):
http://www.geocities.com/damunicom/oomblaug.html
The Delphiad (translation of novel excerpts):
http://www.geocities.com/damunicom/EnglishLanguageFiction/TheDelphiad.htm
In French:
La Delphinée
http://www.geocities.com/damunicom/delphinee.html
L'éveil de Sycorax
http://www.geocities.com/damunicom/sycorax.html
I've often been accused of being the humourless feminist on message boards. There is a new retort men have been using that I have no civil reply for.
"You sound fat" is the new putting a woman in her place remark. I could reply with you "you sound like you have a small penis" but I have manners. Does anyone else have a suggestion for a comeback?
I have to admit that I immediately resort to the "you must have a tiny little peepee" thing, even though I do agree it's offensive. Sometimes I do the fake sympathy thing ("it must be really hard to have such a tiny peepee in a culture which places so much value on penis size, but there must be some other way you can compensate other than being a total asshole to strangers") but I hold no illusions that this is any better. I also have to admit that I really, really want this bumpersticker, even though my car would probably get vandalised in this town if I had it.
Yeah, in Wyoming we have almost as many big huge penis trucks as they have in Texas.
I have always wanted to take the Hummer version of this bumper sticker and go around putting it on the back of Hummers unbeknownst to the drivers. Slightly evil, but god would that be great :-).
Is there anything more fundamentally overcompensative than truck-testicles?
Is it wrong that I want to get a pair for my bicycle?
That would be hilarious!
I can't believe those. Didn't know what they were, as I'd never heard of them before. Actual rubber testicles to hang from your truck. That's... sad. Oh yeah: and what about the kiddies? How many of those things hang from the trucks and cars of daddies who want to keep their daughters pure?
"You sound fat" is the new putting a woman in her place remark. I could reply with you "you sound like you have a small penis" but I have manners. Does anyone else have a suggestion for a comeback?
I've experienced something similar. You know, if you say something that actually addresses the sexism or hostility you get that "you must be one of those butch dyke fat angry insert-slur-here" responses. Because as we all know, "real" women don't ever dare speak up. ;) I agree that a penis retort is just as degrading as a fat/whatever statement and seems to meet ugly with ugly, resorting to more name calling and gender attacking.
How about simply calling them out on the absurdity?
"excuse me, but how exactly does one *sound* fat"
"so you're saying I must be unattractive because I've expressed something intelligently?"
"right, because pretty girls are dumb and only ugly or fat girls are smart?"
"I must've hit a nerve if you had to resort to insecure name calling"
"funny, I was thinking you sound like an ignorant racists/sexist/homophobe"
I'm going to try some of those. It's so disheartening to see a woman enter a conversation making good points and then some troll comes along and makes a fat joke.
I completely understand. It is a big *le sigh*
on one site I visit I get repeatedly harassed for simply pointing out the site rules -- the most neutral method I could think of -- when someone starts trolling or posting hate speech. I started saying "asking for basic courtesy does not make someone a dyke/feminazi/bitch" or "asking that you abide by the same site rules we all must adhere to is not out of line". Or if I'm feeling particularly short-tempered "if you think asking for common courtesy and respect makes me a bitch, honey you haven't even begun to see bitch yet".
I'd say "Ad hominem!" but they'd probably think I was calling them a homosexual.
Quick thinking, I sure wish I could think on my feet like that! I'm appreciating other people's suggestions of things I just might be able to remember and use, though.
Anyone have a suggestion for addressing a woman in the field of mental health who REALLY SHOULD KNOW BETTER? (Trigger warning.)
http://trudy.objectis.net/humor
I was in middle school when the "That's so gay" thing was big, and I am definitely guilty of using that phrase. What got me to stop was when I said that and a girl looked at me and sarcastically replied "Yeah, that's so lesbian." She did not attack me or embarrass me, but her point was still clear. I realized the actual meaning of what I was saying and stopped.
How do you deal with this when it is women making the jokes? Is it ok to laugh along then? I ask because I work in a female dominated office and my coworkers often make female-deprecating jokes or blond jokes about themselves or others. It offends me sometimes, but i'm not sure how to respond since they are making the jokes about themselves and are women. Thoughts?
If it's a woman making those sorts of jokes, I would just say something like, "I don't think we need to tear ourselves down like that."
Usually, if I don't have a snappy comeback handy and I don't want to get into a growling match about humorless feminists, mockery works pretty well to defuse "jokes" that are thinly veiled attempts to assert dominance. Awkward silence, optional slow clap, and something along the lines of "Wow, I bet you thought that was funny!" It doesn't have to be particularly witty, just a refusal to engage--either by tacitly going along with it or by contesting it in earnest. And it has the bonus quality of pinning the failure of the joke squarely onto its perpetrator: it's not unfunny because I'M a humorless feminist, it's unfunny because YOU are full of fail.
I'm in a PhotoShop class and our next project is to do some of the tutorials on the site Worth1000.com. I looked through the site and one of the galleries they have is Public Harm Announcement. It's the opposite of Public Safety and many of them are funny. But there are several supporting domestic violence. I know that these are really meaning the opposite, but it still leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.
Here's the first gallery of the Public Harm:
http://www.worth1000.com/cache/gallery/contestcache.asp?contest_id=105&display=photoshop
This comes at an interesting time for me, since the boy I had a crush on posted this in his gchat status yesterday.
Yeah, not so much of a crush any more.
Yes, it's true that sometimes this sort of thing is sexist; and absolutely it's true that a clever riposte is a great response (boy, do I wish I were witty enough to quickly come up with something like Liz Carpenter's!)
The key thing to remember here is that male culture is about up and down -- that is, establishing who is alpha. This sort of veiled verbal attack is a male reaction to feeling threatened. It's saying, "you're threatening and I express that by belittling you to show that I'm the alpha."
So the question is whether Schlesinger felt threatened by Carpenter's talent, or her gender, or both? Knowing what I do about Schlesinger, it's likely that her gender played a significant role. But it doesn't really matter; the key observation is that when a man belittles you, he is feeling threatened, and that is not your fault. Sometimes it's your gender, sometimes it's your talent, and either way it is HIS problem.
If you're given to snappy comebacks, then it's fine to play the game; but there are many other ways to engage with dignity in a conversation with someone who is hell bent on establishing dominance, regardless of the underlying cause. If it is your gender, the simple and respectful will sometimes do nicely: "Mr. Schlesinger, I found that quite rude."
I generally find joking in return does not work so well. One of the reason sexist and racist (and other) jokes "work" to harm is that they are about oppressed folks. When you try to turn it around to joke about men or Whites, etc., there usually is no comparable insult. (Richard Prior was part of a brilliant skit on SNL years ago that illustrated this.)
Also, I find that "I don't get it" sometimes makes the ignoramus try to "explain" the joke to me--*as if I really didn't get it.*
Instead, now without laughing or smiling, I nod and say "Hmm. Interesting..." and leave that hanging.
I joke about sexism.
My boyfriend and I (we cohabitate) have a running joke about "womanly duties." Or if I ask him to clean the kitchen, he'll look at me with big eyes and say "but I'm a man!" I also frequently refer to my "simple lady brain" (thanks Sarah Haskins) when he's talking computer stuff that I don't understand. It's all in jest, and he always cleans the kitchen anyway.
Similarly, I sometimes joke about racism. For example, we were watching TV and there was an interracial couple on screen talking about something really odd (don't remember exactly). I said, "that's so wierd." Dramatic pause. "He's black and she's white!"
I also told my Republican dad that I was going to stop working and become a "welfare queen" because I'd heard from him it's such a good living.
...
Now that I think about it, I suppose the humor isn't sexist/racist/classist, so much as it is exaggerating sexist/racist/classist viewpoints a lot of people have, in an effort to make them look ridiculous.
Please tell me if these kinds of jokes are offensive. My intention is to call a spade a spade, and say plainly what a lot of prejudiced people think, in an over-the-top way that makes it sound as crazy as it really is.
I don't think those kinds of jokes are offensive either. It's when somebody is implying some really sexist thing, or you have to make some sexist assumption in order for the joke to workd or something like that that it's offensive.
We joke sarcastically like this all the time too. I think being sarcastic and drawing attention to ridiculous cultural attitudes is a good thing.
I struggle with this ALL THE TIME. The guys I know are really smart, sarcastic and genuinely nice. They are really progressive, liberal and politically involved and I know they don't believe or agree with half the shit they say. But they still say it.
So I'm left in the position of 1) doing the "humorless feminist" thing and telling them "that was really sexist." To which they would respond, "Yeah that was the point" because they knew it was sexist when they said it and they honestly don't believe I will (or would even want me to) "go make them a sandwich." But even if they are making fun of stereotypes they are still reinforcing them. Or 2) (what I usually end up doing with occasional success) I play along with their sexism. I just rapid fire repeat every sexist joke I know they'll say before they actually say it to prove how unoriginal they are or I'll take the sexism to an extreme to show how ridiculous it is. Occasionally I feel like I made my point and occasionally I feel like I pandered to the patriarchy.
It's just a really difficult situation because guys like this would not respond to someone angrily telling them they're sexist (and in fact, it would probably make things worse.) And while I know they are engaging in sexist behavior, they're also the guys who believe women really are as equal and capable as men. They aren't the enemy, they just think the sexist jokes of the enemy are funny. How do you show them it's NOT funny without completely alienating them?
Sometimes people use "rape" to mean destroying something with ease or a struggle, generally not meaning any type of sexual act. For instance, "That midterm totally raped me." This can also be used in games, "We totally raped that boss." In this context, and being a feminist, last night I was playing World of Warcraft, and a character named RapÍst was invited into my raid. I reported him. 30 minutes later he was banned and required to change his name. Then I explained to everyone why his name was not ok.
I'm slowly raising the conciousness of the 19 year old boys I play with.
ZOMG WHAT REALM ARE YOU ON? I'm Mannoroth/Horde.
Sorry, my inner nerd went on a rampage there.
It REALLY bothers me when people, almost always it's men, use "rape" casually to describe totally trivial things. It seems so offensive, completely dismissing the horror and violence of the actual act, while demonstrating a total lack of understanding or compassion for women who have deal with the threat or actual act of rape.
you got raped at the DMV? really? so what does that mean, they dragged you out of the car, forced you to the ground, shoved something in your ass while you cried and screamed? or did they just make you pay a $20 fine for your parking violation?
your team got raped at the sporting event? really now? so they got gang jumped and brutally sexually violated on the field against their will? or did you just not agree with the ref's call?
I can't for the life of me understand this trend, like there's a desire to trivialize sexual assault.
This Shakesville post from a bit ago is about how to respond when people casually use rape as a metaphor.
Lizzie (greeneyed fem), that was a fantastic article. Thanks for sharing, I bookmarked it. Some comments I found particularly insightful about why such use of the word is so incredibly wrong:
Even if nobody is around to be offended by it, it's damaging because it perpetuates the normalization of rape and the dismissal of victims' experiences.
I've also heard, more than once, guys saying, "I raped that midterm." Not only does it trivialize rape, it casts it as a victorious and triumphant act. Nausea-inducing.
For women, the threat of rape is not unimaginably horrific, its all-too-imaginably horrific ... It's real to women in a way that it never will be for most men, and the threat of something like that happening is nothing that should be joked about.'
The "I don't get it" thing usually works when I can't think of a snappy comeback right away. My favourite way to handle racist jokes is to jump in with "I have a racist joke. How many racists does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, because they don't want to be enlightened." I love it because I can see the embarrassment, though the real assholes obviously just ignore me and save their jokes for someone who will actually reciprocate.
I recently cut my hair really short (like 'a boy', I guess) and a particularly irritating guy I work with made some comment about how there's nothing for my boyfriend to grab on to. With a straight face I told him no, but it sure makes the pretend gay buttsex more real. I acknowledge that statement is not inoffensive, though it got my point across.
"I have a racist joke. How many racists does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, because they don't want to be enlightened."
That's awesome!
I just googled "who wrote it for you?" and the two first hits I got were:
Claudia to Amanda “I just read your book. Its wonderful. Who wrote it for you? Amanda to Claudia “ You bought my book! How wonderful darling. Who read it for you?”
http://theimagist.com/node/3062
Trevor Brennan said he wanted his book to be "warts and all" and it could have been much bigger if his publisher's solicitors had let all the material through. He told us: "I met Peter Clohessy -- he said 'I heard you done a book -- who wrote it for you?' and I said to him 'who read it for you?'"
http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/news-gossip/starry-night-for-book-lovers-1360484.html
So I'm wondering, is it sexist when a male teases a male with the line, or if a female teases a female with the line, or does it magically become sexist only if a male teases a female with the line?
Is there any teasing between the sexes that's not sexist?
Blahblahblah. Why don't you read the discussions that have already taken place so others aren't tempted to waste their time responding to you.
ZzzzzzZzZzzzZzZZzz.
you definitely said it better than me.
context is worth something, don't you think? (or do you think?) when women are struggling to get recognized as intellectually viable and it is suggested that a female author didn't write her own book, there is more than a hint of sexism in the "joke." of course, if you had read any of the clarification in the comments here, you'd know that already...
oh, and teasing can be almost guaranteed not to be sexist or abusive if it's working off of a foundation of mutual respect. in other words, i couldn't tease you without it being abusive because, in light of your comment, i don't respect you.
I did read the clarifications in the comments...
Aside from the word 'magically', (for which I apologize), it was intended as a serious question...
Why is is this joke ( and it IS an old joke ) merely boorish, at most, if it's between two women or two men, but a sexist attack if said by a man to a woman?
I'm really not being sarcastic here, I'm trying to understand...
If you want to understand it, then think about the arguments set out above rather than immediately trying to tear them down.
Your fake sincerity looks a lot like fake sincerity.
Does this help?:
Even if the joke is between two women, but involves the assumption that a woman is incapable of producing a product of intellectual merit on her own, it is still sexist. The gender(s) of the teller(s), while often predictive of the social content of the joke, is not the only factor.
For the record, I'm kinda with folks that, if you didn't get it the first time around, you're being willfully dense... and the 'magic' comment kind of cemented that assumption on my part. But I've got nothing to lose by trying to break this down for you.
Again, to answer your first question, if your "teasing" isn't predicated on an assumption (or playing with the assumption) that women are inferior to men, then it's probably not sexist. If, on the other hand, it's humor is build on a base of stereotypical superiority/inferiority issues between men and women, you can bet it is.
OK, SO EXCITED about this post! After experiencing an entire hockey arena of people chanting "husky women!" when we played the St. Cloud Huskies last week, I've been polling my friends to find out their best comeback to sexist assholes.
Recently I've been using, "I don't get it. Sorry, my small lady brain takes a while!" heavily coated in sarcasm and death stares(woohoo Sarah Haskins, as someone also mentioned above with the lady brains bit)
on the "small lady brain" idea...
when people would be really condescending in a sexist manner at parties or in a professional environment I used to open my eyes really wide, make this super ridiculous cartoon girly voice, giggle like something out of 50s porn, and say:
"heh heh, yeah and I'm a girl"
or
"hee, and I tied my own shoes too"
or something similarly absurd. sometimes I'd put my hand to my mouth afterward in that mocking cutesy gesture.
I don't do this much anymore, though lately it tickles me to do the eyes-voice-giggle thing and say:
"math is hard"
like the infamous talking Barbie when something particularly stupid and sexist is said. It usually clues people to the fact that they're being an asshat.
I just don't laugh. It may not be a witty quip or enlighten the person who told the joke, but it makes the person stop saying that kind of thing around me at least.
This thread has given me a lot of great ideas. Asking them to explain is always good, and fun to watch in a twisted way, I guess. Asking a 'friend' to explain why his feminist-blowjob joke was funny? Totally worth it.
I had a similar, awful experience at a friends bucks day (or party before his wedding, stag night i think its called in the states) where we went to the horse racing. There were 3 girls in total at this event compared to about 15 guys, so you can imagine the potential for sexism. I noticed in one of the races that there was a female jockey, i said this out loud to myself, and a 'mate' (not the stag) of mine heard me and thus the drama ensued.
'mate':a female jockey? where? (upon sighting her and being within hearing range yells out) BITCH!
me: what the **** how is that funny? why would you say something like that? you think that's OK?
'mate': "What? Chicks don't belong on top of horses, horses belong on top of chicks!"
If this conversation had happened between just the 2 of us, i probably would have been able to handle it. But this guy said this in front of everyone. I was so furious so i picked up my bag, did not say a word and left. I walked to the bathroom and in spite of myself lost it in tears. I'm still not sure if what i did was the best way to handle it. But in that moment i did not feel like humour was appropriate. Nor would any discussion have helped due to the amount of alcohol being consumed. Any ideas?
wow, I'm really sorry to hear about your incident. I totally understand your reaction. I have on occasion been in a similar situation where I just felt totally outnumbered by the hostility and male "jokes", as a result I just felt at a complete loss as to how to respond. I also felt vulnerable and frustrated and just upset. Actually, I was once the only woman at a bachelor party (as we say here in the states) and felt the same thing. Even trying to hide into the woodwork and not make a fuss it still felt like a constant battle. As you said in a one-on-one, or even one-on-three, it's easier to handle. In a group it's quite different. And then we feel worse afterward for allowing ourselves to be cowed or upset.
I think it's a shame that we feel we can't address someone's rude behavior without sacrificing our identity or validity by becoming the "humorless feminist", or whatever term is used by the offender to dismiss our complaint.
i was of course embarrassed after the fact because afterwards a few of the people there saw i was crying. now looking back i'm not sorry for being upset. What i didn't add to my anecdote was what occurred afterwards.
after i left and went to the bathroom, one of the other girls whom i work with texted me and said she would come with me. On the way to the trains i got a call from the 'mate' and he proceeded to abuse me over the phone. this is the next conversation.
mate: what the **** did you walk off for why are you upset?
me: look i dont appreciate those kinds of jokes, they arent funny, that jockey could have heard you and probably did and for what reason is she a bitch? just because she is a girl? and the horse thing isnt funny.
mate: what the hell? (laughing) i thought it was hilarious!
me: well if you dont understand why im upset then i dont really see the point in us talking about it.
at this point i hung up on him, because i was still in tears and upset and really pissed off obviously. but here is the zinger. half an hour later, enraged by my hanging up on him he called me back.
mate: "what the f*** why would you hang up on me, that is so f*****g rude. if you ever f*****g hang up on me again, your boyfriend, his mates, and his brothers are not going to be able to stop what i am going to you."
yes you read correctly, he threatened me with physical violence because somehow i damaged his ego so much he had to put me in my place because my hanging up on him took away his power and control. well at least that is my theory. you can imagine how shocked and angry and upset i was hearing a threat of violence from someone i considered to be a friend when i did NOTHING wrong. i was not hostile, i did not swear at him, i did not belittle or call him names. all i said was i was upset.
at this point i am not talking to him, and he is ignoring me. i have no idea what to do, it will be hard to avoid him in future because he is good friends with my boss (i work in a pub) and he comes in regularly. luckily my boss is supportive and has told me i have the right to have nothing to do with him.
i think the basic point of me telling this is that even jokes can escalate to the point where violence becomes involved which just shows that many of the perpetrators of this sexism are those who are capable of much worse.
that was a long post, but if anyone could offer advice as to where to go from here, i would be very very grateful as if been anxious and stressed about it ever since it happened which was about 3 weeks ago.
oh gees, that's horrific. I'm so sorry to hear that. And yes, you nailed it -- the fact that he's threatened violence does demonstrate that his "jokes" are just sexism/misogyny in disguise, which he's hoping to get away with by intimidating people so they don't call him out. Your situation illustrates the extreme of why we find such "joking" offensive and why they can be tricky to respond to.
I'm afraid I can't offer any helpful advice. I'd just suggest that you tell your bf and your friends about the threat -- and do NOT sugar coat it. Be clear that this man threatened to do vicious harm to you. I don't know how the legal system works where you are, but you may also want to file a police report to have a record of the threat should this man harass you more.
If I were in your shoes, I'd also seriously question the bf as to why he associates with this kind of person and why he did not come to your defense when it happened, out of simple respect for his gf. That would alarm me.
My boyfriend was not there at the time, he was at work. When i did tell him that night he was indeed appalled and shocked as well. My bf only knows this guy through me and my job and my boss, he isn't one to associate with him outside of that circle. Don't worry i would have definitely called him out if he had not been alarmed.
I think this guy only involved my boyfriend to emphasize his threat so it wasn't just me that wouldn't be able to stop him, but also all the men in my life and my boyfriends life as well. Because obviously women exist only for men to protect or to hurt. Blergh!
Sorry I misunderstood the situation with your bf there. I'm happy to hear he was compassionate and appropriately appalled. And yes, it sounds like the guy was throwing in references to all those men in his threat as a "girls are nothing without a man protecting them" thing. Best of luck with this, he sounds like a major head case.
to AgnesGrep Re: a police report -- having a record of the offense can help if someone repeatedly harasses, threatens, or stalks you. It builds a case history. The police can't do anything about it now, of course, and I don't even think the guy would know a report was filed. But having the history aids in things such as restraining orders or prosecution should they be needed at some point.
I'm sorry. That is so, pardon my language, fucking disgusting. That guy is a turd.
I don't think the police would do anything about his threats but I wonder if you should still file a complaint. I worry though that that would escalate his anger. It's great that your boss is so understanding but I don't know why he(?) hasn't spoken to the guy about this.
I did tell my boss who was there on that day what happened, he was understanding and did actually say to me that he would talk to him. I am unsure if he did or not, he hasn't said anything to me, nor have i asked. I'm going to work in about 30 mins so i will ask. However i did get a very apologetic text from this guy a few days later so maybe my boss did talk to him. I'm in 2 minds about this because i am hesitant to make any sort of reconciliation with him as if he can say something like that to me unprovoked he can surely say it again. But at the same time, and i know it sounds stupid but i almost feel bad for not accepting the apology and just going back to being friends with him, even though i know its probably in my best interests to stay away.
I also would be inclined to think that the cops would do nothing about it if i were to report it. But i have told pretty much everyone who works at the pub, all of my friends, and my boyfriends friends and my parents and older brother. So those who need to know do know, and i highly doubt he would do anything to me. I won't report it. I think I'm just going to remove him from my life and that's something he is going to have to live with.
Oh, to answer your question, I don't often have the energy or presence of mind to come up with some perfect higher ground zinger, particularly if the comment was upsetting. So lately I've just been going the simple route.
I put on a forced and disdainful smile like I'm in the middle of something important and have to deal with a stupid question, lock eye contact and dripping with sarcasm simply say:
"charming"
or
"hmm, witty"
or
"yes, I can see why you're single"
or
"hmm, isn't your wife/girlfriend lucky" (if they're not single)
those seem to make the offender feel childish and stupid, so at least they don't bother me again.a
Whenever I'm given the hostile "What, are you gay?" question, I sneer at the (always a man) who asks me that and say "As far as you're concerned, hell no."
I also taught a class over the summer for high school kids a few years back, and one of the students asked me if I was gay. I could tell he was looking for juicy gossip and I knew it would erode my respect in the classroom, so I turned the tables on him. "Why are you asking? Because if you are hitting on me, that's really creepy. It's okay to be gay, but seriously, don't ask your teachers out. That's just disturbing." I got a laugh from the other students, and I feel a little bad about making him squirm in front of his peers, but I got the message across.
Kind of related, when I'm called dyke-as-pejorative by a guy I always reply with "If you're the alternative then hell yes." Conversely, I sometimes like to play on anxious hetero masculinity by asking a misogynistic guy why he bothers dating women if he hates us so much.
On a related topic, I have a shirt that says "Marriage is so gay" that I really like but feel conflicted about. Obviously it's flaunting the whole "that's so gay" thing while linking marriage with homosexuality and questioning how great marriage really is all at the same time. But if read as a derogatory comment, which I'm fine with because I have huge issues with marriage as practiced in our culture, then it necessarily rides on the whole gay=bad thing.
My sisters (and now my) response? It's only a joke if it's *funny*.
It's only a joke if it's *funny*.
that's the best I've heard yet. :)
I agree. That's the best response I've ever read to, "It's only a joke."
While her answer was awesome, she missed the world's most perfect set up for a "your mom."
Possible response to "I'm only joking".
Look thoughtful and concerned and say "You're not very good at it. Maybe you should stop."
I can't/won't do the thing where you play ignorant or feign naivete, because it does let the other person get away with it. I'm simply not patient enough to let them get away with it or have to explain their joke if they assume the naivete is real.
I will detourn the joke and flip it back on itself, but only if I can do so while insulting the joker, perhaps, but not an entire set of people that person happens to belong to.
But those of us who were suggesting the fake naivete thing do it because when the person has to explain the joke it becomes obvious how offensive it is, and they usually end up feeling embarassed in front of everyone else. So I wouldn't characterize that as letting them get away with it.
Carmen Van Kerckhove of Racialicious had similar advice about dealing with racist jokes -- about playing dumb. Her original post seems to have disappeared, but it's quoted here and here:
"Put on a bewildered expression, act as if you don't understand the joke, and ask your co-worker to explain it to you. He will not be able to explain why the joke is funny without evoking a racist stereotype . . . Racist jokes rely on an unspoken, shared knowledge of racist stereotypes. Without the stereotypes, there is no humor."
I also really love the idea of saying, "My ________ is _________" too.
I've actually had this happen to me very recently.
I think there's a big difference between making a joke that's intentionally offensive for shock value and making a joke that's subtly offensive because you don't have the guts to say what you mean.
I sometimes enjoy the former and I can't stand the latter. I'd rather just have someone come flat out and insult me rather than playing cutesy games with serious issues. I don't care - I usually just call them out on it.
It's funny because it's racist, but not because it's racist, because it makes fun of those who actually think that way...obviously.
Right, I agree with Danyell on this one. If it's a subtle insult, call it out. If it's a joke that is said with good intentions, the original response is perfect. Not because it "disarms" the so-called "bigot" but because it shows that the interlocutor understands that the stereotypes are so ridiculous that they should be laughed at. Plus, any girl that reacts that way would be a huuuuge turn-on because it's witty.
These kinds of jokes are, in fact, excusable exactly because they disarm bigotry in the first place. Funny thing is, the true bigot won't get it. They'll think you are serious. That's why it's so funny. Because any sexist would look at you and think you are right on the money, while you are looking back at him and laughing at his idiotic bigoted notions.
Try the whole "explain it to me cause I don't get it" bit and you'll be the one embarrassed for being so hyper-sensitive, not me. Ya dig?
Yeah Roscoe, I'm definitely following you and Danyell as well. I'm not for any type of those types of jokes, and do my best to not be around those types of people. It just gets boring and way old.
"Try the whole "explain it to me cause I don't get it" bit and you'll be the one embarrassed for being so hyper-sensitive, not me. Ya dig?"
Definitely the right opinion Roscoe, I'm right with you!
- Julie, Free Credit Report Consultant (Rep/Advisor)
I tend to just do what a lot of people have mentioned: put it plainly.
I have some male friends who I dance salsa with, and they make it a habit to constantly make sexual innuendo. Not just to/with me but to/with each other as well. Usually I play along so long as it's just jokes about sex (as opposed to sexism) but at one point they started describing different 'sexual names'. You know what I mean, when there's a disgusting sexual move with a weird name (like Donkey Punch or the Dirty Sanchez) etc. At one point they were describing one of them and laughing about how funny it was in a mixed group (3 men, 2 women including myself). And I just said, very plainly "I don't find that funny, that's rape. It's sexual assault and rape." It shut them up from talking about that, but since I'm normally so receptive to their simple innuendo-based jokes, they haven't since talked or joked about rape. Basically they know that I'm not anti-sex or anti-humour, I'm just anti-rape and anti-sexism. I've pulled them up on a few things actually.
I do get conflicted though when I start to feel that the innuendo-based jokes are beginning to centre in on me. I think part of it is that I'm hanging out with single guys who might be seeking some of my attention, but it also can make me feel uncomfortable.