1. comprehensive sexual education that include critical conversations about rape, power, and violence with men AND teaches men what and where the clit is (just sayin')
2. advocating for more family friendly work policy for all and changing the culture of work machismo among men
3. reflecting on how much $$ goes into male athletic culture, and how linked it is to violence off the field
4. changing the culture to give men more permission to identify, manage, and talk about their emotions
5. an intersectional approach to incarceration, poverty, and race that includes a gender analysis
What about you?
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How do sports cause to violent crime? How?
no 'to'.
I really need to slow down in typing.
I was wondering that too. And although I love sports I do thing too much money is put into it.
I don't know if this is the link that Courtney was talking about, but I have read about the sports and violence link before. Without getting too in depth (because I am tired and don't think I will be fully coherent), many sports (especially 'traditionally' male sports like wrestling or football) emphasize domination over your opponent at all costs through physical force. Sports also reinforce machismo stereotypes (you must be athletic and manly to be accepted) and in many high schools and colleges, male athletes are treated as heroes that can do no wrong, which can encourage a mindset where they can get away with anything and are entitled to everything, including women. I know there is scholarly writing to the effect, but I am probably not the best to tell you where to look.
This is all true. I don't know how anyone could deny that there is a link between masculinity in sports and violence.
If you are interested in the subject, I'd suggest a book I recently read: "Power at Play: Sports and Problem of Masculinity" by Michael Messner
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ky8uT6AILYQC&dq=power+at+play:+sports+and+the+problem+of+masculinity&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=jrTDSYn9Dd7HtgeBq_THCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA13,M1
From the back cover:
"Power at Play examines the important role of sports play in defining masculinity for American men: from boys who learn what it is 'to be a man' and 'to succeed' in the social world of sport to high school athletes who learn to use their bodies as instruments of violence to ex-athletes whose views about intimacy were shaped by the attitudes toward women and sex they learned in sports culture."
UhOhitzSaro, Disarm33: if you haven't already, I can't recommend enough the book Our Guys (http://www.amazon.com/Our-Guys-Bernard-Lefkowitz/dp/0375702695) by Bernard Lefkowitz. It's about the 1989 Glenn Ridge Rape Case & it addresses exactly what you're talking about, esp. the parts about hero worship, entitlement, & getting away with anything & everything.
Besides the actual case, one of the more harrowing parts of the book was when these popular athletes utterly trash & destroy the home of a girl who threw a party because she wanted to be popular herself.
At least from my perspective, it's less the "winning/losing" aspect of sports and more the "athletes are untouchable gods who can do no wrong" piece which often accompanies sports culture that causes the problem. Sport itself is a positive thing for many of the participants, male and female. However, when a pro, college or even high school team gets to the point where violence is swept under the rug for the sake of protecting the program - well, that's where date rapes and DUIs happen.
Here are some links:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Central/02/19/colorado.football/
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/2003-12-22-athletes-assault-side_x.htm
http://www.azstarnet.com/sports/192445
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Public-Heroes-Private-Felons/Jeff-Benedict/e/9781555533168
Thanks for clearing that up! I think I see what you're getting at. I never really thought of it like that.
She never said sports cause violence, she said there was a link between the two. Maybe you should slow down when you're reading as well.
Exactly.
A link implies causation.
actually, it doesn't. one of the first mantras they teach in introductory stats classes is that "correlation does NOT imply causation".
Good use of verbal judo...
OP stated there was a 'link' between male athletics and violence off of the field.
By switching 'linked with 'correlation' you were completely able to derail the conversation to make Qwerty look foolish.
And that is cheating.
A link,/i> more than correlation.
A link, as used by the OP is causation. If look beyond an intro to stats class and get into a research class, in order to determine causation you need temporal precedence, non-spuriousness, hopefully some mechanism explaining the causation, so forth and so on.
OP is implying if you decrease or eliminate male athletic culture you will see less violence off the field.
That implies causation.
*facepalm*
Stat 101 - correlation does not imply causation. Repeat: CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION
she never said it was a correlation or causation. she needs to be clearer on that very important point. if it's a mere correlation, then why even bring it up?
and if there is a causation factor, why push for women to get into these same sports if it causes men to be violent as the poster implies
Because, jaja, "correlation" can encompass a symbiotic relationship in which factors may have originated independently but feed off of and enhance one another.
You'll notice that Courtney wrote "male athletic CULTURE," not "athletics" proper. See the distinction?
A culture that gives special privileges to the athletically gifted, including a "boys with be boys" attitude toward domestic violence is the problem.
As a male feminist, I'm going to respond to how I have (or have not) approached each of these.
1. Although I don't have much activist or donating time, I do try to get involved in this when possible. I actively condemn violence against women in my social life, and I have been a little bit involved in "Men Stopping Violence" which is a local men's pro-feminist group. http://www.menstoppingviolence.org/
2. I don't tolerate ignorance in the workplace. Any degrading actions towards women will be called out and/or penalized.
3. I hate sports, male or female. Even when you take the gender crap out of it, I still can't stand how much money is wasted on it.
4. This is often in my list of reasons why "feminism is for men." In fact, I might publish a list like this one day...
5. I am working on a video that addresses exactly this, with a focus on how women are mistreated by our crap Criminal Justice System. If I can get a copy of it when I finish it, I'll post it on my blog and let you know about it.
I realize that I didn't really answer the question posed. As per requests further down this thread, I'll do so.
Really, I think feminist men should take on a majority of the same issues that feminist women do. We're fighting for the same thing (equality) but we happen to be in a position in society that is privileged in some ways and disadvantages in others (at least relating to the feminist cause).
Here's what I've learned from my attempts at feminist activism:
1) Some classical feminist activist roles are not accepting of men. Don't expect to be able to help in the same ways. i.e. if you donate time to an abortion clinic, you'll probably be a door escort. Don't expect to be accepted as a driver, even with states that have these laws. Don't expect to be able to help (in some ways) in situations where women have been hurt by men (such as domestic violence shelters).
2) Men have a unique advantage of being able to get the message out to other men without being labeled and disregarded as "a whining bitch." Levy this advantage - break this bias in other men.
So, as a result, I would say feminist men should be doing the same thing as feminist women, with the following exceptions:
1) Know that you won't be able to help as much with vulnerable women. This doesn't mean that you can't help, just that the tasks you're given will likely differ.
2) Break the prejudice of other men. Let them know when they act out of line. Teach them that it's not cool to degrade women. Make sure they know that when women talk about bias and social inequality, they're talking about something real. Fight the idea of male privilege. Set an example. Make sure they know that women can be objective and rational, and men can be irrational and stupid.
Sorry if this post sounds a little broken - it's a bit late.
I hear you loud and clear, Courtney! Good post.
I am a male feminist.
1) When I hear someone make a rape joke, or a joke that is degrading to women, I do my best to call them out and tell them how much crap it is. I wish we taught better comprehensive sex ed in schools because abstinence only ed is crap.
3) I think the athletic culture for men is seriously flawed. I'm not scared to voice that opinion to those around me. It contributes to othering people and lots of violence.
4) I think one way the culture can be changed is by not using words like bitch or pussy to insult a man or anyone for that matter. These words imply that its bad to be feminine. We have to tell young boys they can have feelings as well and should be open to expressing them.
As for 2 and 5 I cant really contribute at the moment since I'm just a college student. However our justice system is severly flawed. Serious problems have to be addressed. Why are so many men incarcerated? Why are minority male prison populations so high? What can we do to change this problem?
whats the flaw in the male sports culture?
One example is hockey, anytime there is a dispute between players on the court, the players just throw down their sticks and start punching. Players often start fighting with others, in basketball players often yell at refs in disagreement with calls. Another thing worth noting as I have witnessed many times. Is that many people often yell or antagonize fans of an opposing teams. Maybe they think they are just having fun but when your yelling things like "X TEAM FUCKIN SUCKS. YOUR A PUSSY!" I think its harmful. Also sports tend to other people in high school via school rivalries. People on sports teams tend to think other teams are stupid like debate teams for example or scholastic bowl. I dunno just a few things I have seen.
I have to admit, the fights are one of the reasons I watch hockey. I think that the problems occur with when players (and fans) can't separate the game from the rest of their lives.
What needs to be taught is that just because there are rough or violent aspects to games it doesn't mean that violence=manly. Just because your game involves tackling doesn't mean you have to fight and murder animals to be a badass (I'm talking to you, Vick).
That's the perspective of a fight-lovin' (feminist) female hockey fan, at least.
hockey is unique in all sports because of that element, but I don't see how this applies other sports. i've seen women also fighting and yelling basketball. i don't see how the aggression in sports equates to some male privilege thing. its an off shoot of the competition and is exhibited by both genders. and frankly i think it's very healthy. it gives a structured environment to released these sorts of feelings
Cool. Tell that to the captain of my high school's basketball team and his girlfriend, who were shot by supporters of the opposite team after driving home from a big game. Or the people beaten to death by soccer hooligans.
Sports are ritualized warfare. I've participated fairly heavily in some myself (basketball, kung fu), so it's not as though I condemn them categorically. But to pretend that they don't contribute to tribalism and violence is naive.
Have to agree here if I see someone act like a low life thug on the sports field that means they’re a low life thug and I seriously loose respect for them
trying...
http://www.amplifyyourvoice.org/u/AFY_Joe/2009/3/19/More-lies-from-the-Abstinenceonly-Lobby
http://www.amplifyyourvoice.org/u/AFY_Joe/2009/2/18/Abonly-group-shamed-into-changing-their-rapevictimblaming-website
you're right...
i think the problem with the "men's movement" is that we are focused overwhelmingly with reaching out to men and educating them....that's definitely important but as you have briefly pointed out, it's limiting.... also we are still "finding ourselves".... the failure of the anti-sexist men's movement from the 70's is an example of this....
although i think those things are addressed in academic literature....perhaps not so much "finding the clit"...but....
One issue I'd like to see more clearly raised by feminist men is how women's rights are human rights, and how men who don't identify as feminists can't be fairly said to believe in human rights at all.
So, for example, I will of course never be pregnant and never have to consider abortion with respect to my own body, but a woman's right to choose whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term is, even given the nonsensical assumption that a fetus is a human being with full human rights, the exact same right as every person's right to decide whether or not to donate a kidney or donate blood. Abortion is the most basic of human rights, and pretty much all women's rights issues can and should be framed in terms of basic human rights.
"women's rights are human rights, and how men who don't identify as feminists can't be fairly said to believe in human rights at all."
Pull the other one, it's got bells on.
That's stupid and close minded. Men do not need to identify as feminists to believe in human rights, neither do women. Have you noticed just how many women don't identify as feminists? If a woman or man for that matter working in a refugee camp to distribute food does not identify as feminist do they not believe in human rights? If they instead identify themself as a humanist? An egalitarian?
You know what? How dare you! How dare you judge every one not one of us as not believeing in human rights. Who the hell are you to do that! Actions speak louder than words, and they speak louder still than labels. I'm not saying you've never done anything to further human rights, I don't know you from a bar of soap. But take a look at people who have done more than you. Who have sacrificed more than you. Are they all feminists? No.
We are not the only cause worth pursuing. And we are not the only way of pursuing rights for women.
You should be ashamed.
He may be overstating it to expect them to identify as feminists, but I've known so many fauxgressive men in my life who claim to care about human rights but couldn't give a fuck about women's rights. And in that case he's right. Women's rights are human rights, and you can't authentically be invested in one without the other.
And it's also interesting to me that so many fauxgressive men don't have the balls to identify as feminist. If you can't grow a pair long enough to take on a label that may expose you to some verbal abuse in your culture, then you certainly can't call yourself an activist and expect all kinds of accolades for your compassion and open-mindedness.
Seconded, voiceofreason. Not to mention that the brunt of most "human rights crises" is borne overwhelmingly by women. Get a clue, South.
I stand by what I wrote. Judge people by what they do. Not what they SAY they are.
Your point about the "fauxgressive men" is fair. But half of that sort that I know DO call identify as feminists. Doesn't change the fact they can't tell their arsehole from their elbow when it comes to equality.
I do believe that when it comes to human rights you cannnot ignore women. (I mean it's obvious isn't it? Women are human, therefor human rights are for women) But you don't have to CALL yourself a feminist to make a deliberate difference for women in a humanitarian sense.
Australian cricketer Steve Waugh is the patron of the Calcutta girl's foundation, a rehibilitation home in India for female children whose parents have leprousy. To the best of my knowledge he does not identify as a feminist. Actions speak louder than words. He is a humanitarian.
I think you and me pretty much agree where it counts voiceofreason. It is an overstatement to expect them to identify as feminists. Too act as though they are feminists? That can be expected.
Demanded even.
"Abortion is the most basic of human rights"
You don't honestly believe that, do you?
Full bodily autonomy and control of what happens to and inside my body? Why, yes, that is exactly what I believe in.
I second that!
"a woman's right to choose whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term is, even given the nonsensical assumption that a fetus is a human being with full human rights, the exact same right as every person's right to decide whether or not to donate a kidney or donate blood."
I really appreciate the way this is stated, Robert. Very simple and smart. The only real arguments I could think someone would use against this line of reasoning would quickly dissolve into attempts to punish women for being sexual in the first place.
Also, there seems to be a skuffle about your wording. I agree that women's rights are human rights, and with what you said. The only place that we part is the idea that one has to identify as a feminist to support women's rights (i don't think that one does have to). But I get your point, and I agree with it.
Is it just me, or does it seem kind of ironic that so many of the male respondents here are mainly attacking the responses of others and haven't bothered to actually address the question posed in the OP? Let's hear it Qwerty, jaja, South, and Fitz. Are you feminists? If so, what issues do you wish more feminist men were talking about?
I was confused about point #3 in Courtney's OP. I agree with the others.
I'd rather not make this thread about me, so im gonna ignore your other question.
How would answering the original question that Courtney posed make this thread about you? And why are you on this thread if you're not interested in that question? Sounds like a cop-out to me. In case your reading skills are failing you, the question was what issues do you wish more feminist men were taking on?
Okeydokey. First off I'm not telling you what I identify as. This topic's put a bee in my bonnet about labels. Judge me by my actions (or in this context words :)
I'm with Courtney an all points bar point 3. But that's because I'm Australian. We don't put anywhere near the ammount of money into sports that America seems to. We like sports very much, but their isn't heaps of money in it. In the context of sportsmen getting treated as above the law, again, it doesn't seem to happen so much. Nobody carred who was on the football team in highschool, even less so in Uni (we don't have college). I know less about proffesional sportsmen, but they seem to have been getting in too much trouble latley for me to conclude they're getting a free pass.
Point 5 is great. It's probably number one on my list.
For personal things I think feminist men should be talking about more here goes (all Courtney's examples relate specifically to men, so mine will to. There are a number of "women's issues" I also think they should talk about, but maybe that's for another place.)
1) Health care: how machoism gets in the way of to many men pursuing a healthy life style and getting the medical attention that they need when they need it. Years back a number of men's health clinincs were set up (prostate stuff mainly). Great idea. THey shut down because no one turned up.
2)Female objectification in advertisments. It is bad. It is stupid. It works. That's our fault. A "hot girl" on a bill board doesn't indicate a good quality product. Do your homework and get the right brand and adverts may actually get better.
3)Politics. Nobody talks about politics. Everyone should talk about politics. People should give a damn, damn it. Left right is a false dichotmy, there is more out their. Think for christs sake. (this isnt specifically for feminist men, it goes for everyone, but as it's my advise for every grou it fits in here :)
4)Boys will be boys. More of a men will be men point here. I wish more men would talk about where they're doing something or acting someway because it's expected of them rather than because they actually want to. Boys will be boys is a fallasy, if we discussed our motivations more we'd be better at identifying where we're forcing ourselves into the restrictive norms of social expectation against our true nature.
That's all I have for now. Well, ok I have more, but this is too long allready ;)
Another feminist man here to comment and give his perspective:
The culture of machismo is a big problem, but it is getting noticeably better all the time. Admitting to being gay or even hanging out with gay people would is far more acceptable now than it was 20 years ago, and I think that (along with other factors) are making it easier to for men to not live up to a ridiculous and sexist standard of "manliness". Obviously, it's still a huge problem, but the situation is slowly improving.
As for the sexist jokes thing, that's an abhorrent issue. I make it a point to always call people out when doing that and give them a "hey asshole, that's not fucking funny". It's absurdly common, and I've even heard it among other men I consider close friends (friends who suddenly become less close after such incidents). It's disturbingly common, and I agree, every single decent human being needs to call these things out whenever they happen. For some reason, it's not ok (in most circles) to make jokes about black people and jews, but it's hilarious to joke about women getting raped. It disgusts me.
I have nothing to say about sports (never played one, never watch it on TV, don't really care), other than to suggest that the money spent should obviously be same.
As for comprehensive sex-ed and intersectional approach to incarceration, poverty and race, I don't really see those things as "issues for feminist men", I see them as "issues for feminists", I think those are issues that the important for the feminist movement as a whole should tackle.
If I were to make a wishlist about what I think feminist men should prioritize it's about men, there's two big things on it: taking responsibility and self-identification. When it comes to rape and harassment and other sexual crimes, we really need to stand up and say that the responsibility solely lies on the man, and that that behavior is loathsome. This is not a new issue to Feministing, it seems like every other day you report on a news-story with the words "at the night in question, the victim was said to have been wearing revealing clothing" (as if it mattered) or something along those lines.
Boys need to be taught from a young age that it does not matter how a woman dresses or how much she drinks or how attractive she is, no means fucking no. And nothing gives you license to harass coworkers or call your girls at school "whores" or "sluts". It often stuns me that work-places have "sensitivity training" or things like that to try and curb sexist behaviors in the work-place. Who the hell thinks it's ok to behave in that way? Who the fuck raised these people?
(I'm not saying that sensitivity training is a bad thing, if it works it's obviously a good thing. I'm just saying that it shocks me that they're even needed)
But, by far, the most important thing is to make it ok for men to be able to say that they are feminists. All of Courtney's and my complaints are subordinate to that. Feminist men need to start saying "Of course I'm a feminist? Wait, aren't you? Don't you believe in equal pay? Don't you believe that women should have the same chances as men?". If we can ingrain that in the culture, feminism as a whole will have a much easier ride.
Courtney--
I wish you'd elaborated a little bit. There's a lot of ground to cover under those five.
Hey guys. Do feminist stereotypes abhor you, but your mom/sisters/teachers raised you right? Can you help but notice a sustained systemic imbalance against chicks? In how women have been treated by culture, politics, science, the arts in ... most of your enduring/"flourishing" societies for the past, oh, thousand years?
What does we tell our children. (what I would have to add)
Don't let nerds talk about rape in terms of competitive advantage. Even to the socially conservative it is uncouth. "Dude! I'm Raping you." "Dude, I'm being Raped." What ignorance hath Counter-Strike wrought.
He doesn't speak for dudes!
my work involves moving boxes of books. the women I've worked with have many been of the petite sort to begin with, not accounting for the upper body strength thing. I wait to be asked to help with the lifting regardless?
What, um, gambling leads to domestic violence? I'm not arguing, but I have no idea.
I try to be open and approachable? I cry at movies. Crying's good, it gets you higher.*
An intersectional approach to incarceration, poverty, and race that includes a gender analysis? David Simon books and the television they have wrought. Homicide, The Corner, The Wire. It's all connected.
Oh for goodness' sake. Crying at movies is such a pathetic cliché. If you do, fine. But don't think it says anything about how fucking "feminist" you are. Or progressive.
I am here to impress you with my feminism? Are you high? Impress who.
Utter Litany of women I've bedded by dropping Sojourner Truth.
give me a fucking break.
This is a totally cool request. Call it the other side of "whut about teh menz?" Because it's not just about how patriarchy or whatever hurts men, it's about what are men doing about it.
So I'll dig in two ways. First, I'll answer "what about you" as if you're asking "Issues I wish more feminist men were taking on." The second is what I *think I'm doing!*
---
What I wish: I wish more feminist men were taking on contraception -- despite repeated polls and surveys in multiple countries to the contrary there's a persistent story that men wouldn't use hormonal contraceptives. The story's not true but its persistence is slowing down research and the investment needed to bring any of the in-development products to market.
I wish more feminist men were talking about it in terms of how feminism benefits us directly instead of just talking as if it only benefited us indirectly by way of our daughters, partners, sisters, moms, or other women in our lives. Better honest (and dependable) self-interest than, um, chivalry.
I wish more feminist men were talking about the twin axioms of the dominant paradigm: that it must be simultaneously inconceivable and intolerable for women to have sexual desire (as opposed to, say, economic or domestic desire); that it must be simultaneously inconceivable and intolerable for men to be sexually desired. (List of consequences here.)
---
What about what I'm doing: The following mixed thoughts aren't actual contributions, just reflections on which of those items I think of myself as able to competently address.
To be honest I don't know much about male athletic culture. As the painfully skinny, bookish, highly asthmatic kid in most classes I didn't gravitate towards sports till, really, my mid-30s. The athletes I have known have tended to be of the small liberal-arts-school persuasion than the steroid-packing, "scholarship" hacking, women-smacking collegiate and professional kind that... possibly unfairly considering absolute overall numbers of *amateur* athletes worldwide... damns all of sports. I will say it's taken decades to realize that much of my animosity towards organized sports derived from... yet still *other* forms of... call it alt-male-macho culture.
If I have to leave sports macho to people with more experience I can say whole-heartedly that as a stay at home dad who really *really* enjoys it I don't just advocate for family-friendly (and non-gender specific) work policies, I think it's tragic that men, especially from older generations, haven't had more time, even just more flex time, to spend not just "being there for" their families but weaving themselves right into the fabric of it.
I'm going to go... ok, not that far out on a limb at all... and say that the measure of whether a sex education course is whether or not it involves critical examination of power, rape, and violence inside relationships. I think that's a good criteria, by the way, because if a course doesn't go there then even if it's progressive as far as maturity-assessment, preparedness conversations, consent, and contraception (instead of just abstinence) it's still primarily about keeping the kids from knocking themselves up and therefore... not comprehensive.
About teaching men to find someone's clitoris, since March, 2006, my biggest cluster of server-log search terms and my most-visited page by an order of magnitude would be How to find someone's clitoris (if you don't already know). Hmm, 2006. Sure, but what have I done lately?
Despite having been homeless for nearly two years and nearly homeless for another two I don't really think I know that much about poverty, let alone incarceration, in gendered terms, beyond what I know about street people and subsistence-level criminals... who, for all their (necessary... they're *on the street... they're on Cops!*) visibility are just a fraction of the real poor in America.
Bottom line: These days I usually think I'm a feminist man but I could clearly be doing more to get the word out about more of the items on Courtney's list. I'll work on it.
figleaf
"I wish more feminist men were talking about the twin axioms of the dominant paradigm: that it must be simultaneously inconceivable and intolerable for women to have sexual desire (as opposed to, say, economic or domestic desire); that it must be simultaneously inconceivable and intolerable for men to be sexually desired."
Ooooh, good one. I'll have to remember that :)
I don't know about the other guys, but as I take women studies classes I feel a collective shame every time we discuss rape and violence against women.
I am also tired of every guy being considered a potential rapist or child molester - this is reflected in attitudes towards men in occupations that include a nurturing role (e.g. nursing, child-care, etc...). There are also corporate policies that demonstrate this. For example American Airlines asking male passengers to be relocate if booked next to an unaccompanied minor. Now we probably would prefer to sit in a quiet aisle seat anyway, but the presumption of guilt is what offends me (Bump me to first class and I'll be pacified).
Forget all these careers, american airlines, or whatever. I feel ashamed and furious every time I walk down the street, especially at night, and a woman intentionally avoids me, pulls out her phone and dials a friend, or does any other safety move. Not directed at the woman, of course, but at the fact that they are justified in doing so.
well, the cause of your shame is not women studies, nor feminism, or not even american airlines.
it is the huge percentage of male perpetrators.
you should be angry with them and with patriarchal society that conditioned and allowed these men do everything they had done.
I'm pretty sure that was his point.
Actually, I think that's just a case of cultural hysteria about child abuse. And is also disgusting.
I think that's something that all allies deal with to some extent. I feel intensely ashamed of my whiteness at times, being aware of the immense amount of racism white people are responsible for. And it's hard to deal with the fact that some people will assume I may be racist because I am white, because I think about my white privilege constantly and actively challenge racism in my life. (Obviously this minor discomfort is nothing compared to the experience of dealing with oppression like racism, this is not a 'cry me a river' comment.)
But you know, I just remind myself: it's not about me. I know that I know my shit and when I don't, I work hard to learn. I keep these things in check so I can do my work. For example, if someone posts something that explicitly or implicitly says 'white people need to stop ___', 'white people are doing [something effed up]' I don't derail the thread by saying "not me, not all white people, you're making ME feel bad" (we've all seen this happen). *It's not about me.* Instead I listen, listen some more, and think how can I fight this, how can I help?
Yes, it really sucks that we can't trust each other easily with racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. everywhere, yes it feels bad to not be trusted, I totally hear you. But the only way to stop this is to fight the ism's and tear them down.
Things male feminists can do:
1. Not strut around with a "I am God's gift to Enlightenment" smirk on their faces. Nobody is going to give you a laurel wreath (or a blow job) just because you say you're a feminist.
2. Not immediately assume a pedantic, lecturing tone to any women present about what feminism is.
3. Not adopt "leadership" of feminist organisations.
4. Remember that you are always going to be an outsider. It is a valuable thing to have a different perspective, and it's a role that you should accept; it's not one you can swap.
Why points 3 and 4? Talk about othering, and for what purpose?
You're absolutely right that a different perspective is incredibly valuable. But why should men be outsiders? Aren't we (shouldn't we) be in this struggle together?
We are outsiders because, fundamentally, it's not our fight; feminism is not just about having opinions X Y and Z, it's about the experience of being a woman. And even if we think that the way that feminists relate to their gender is pretty great, we are necessarily observers and not agents.
As for point three - I've just seen it happen a lot that a man joins a feminists group, and then proceeds to take over the agenda and all the available airspace. And generally, the women let him do it because that's what their socialised to do. And everyone gets angry and disillusioned just because some idiot can't understand that sometimes he is just required to listen, and not talk.
"We are outsiders because, fundamentally, it's not our fight"
I've gotta call bullshit. Feminism is absolutely our fight (assuming you don't identify as a woman). Women, men, and children can fight together for the equality of all genders, races, and sexualities. I'm a white heterosexual male. Is fighting racism and homophobia also not my fight because I'm not profiled due to my skin and sexual preference? I think you have a really limited view of what feminism is and what it means to be a feminist.
That being said, I do understand what you mean about what often goes down when a man joins a feminist group. I just dislike the assumption that anytime a guy becomes a leader, all other voices are drowned out.
Your four rules make a lot more sense if you believe, as you say, that "it's not our fight."
But to believe that you'd have to believe anti-feminism has neither impact nor consequences for men.
If your assumption is that men can be feminist only around (feminist?) women then yeah, breaking any of rules 1-4 would be, um, unhelpful. But can you see how they'd outright interfere with, say, attempts to organize feminist men trying to talk men down off the high, narrow ledges anti-feminism strand all of us on?
Get past the (*cough*patriarchal*cough*) idea that men can only lead, follow, or get out of the way and a whole world of seriously cool possibilities for men opens up. In feminism and, maybe even more importantly, everything else.
figleaf
I agree with your comment to Robert's post, South. I'm interested in advancing some feminist issues, but I don't consider myself to be a feminist.
But the OP question is interesting, and I'm going to answer as if the question was, "What feminist issues do you wish more men were taking on?"
--sex education/STD prevention/pregnancy prevention for both genders, all ages
--reproductive rights/responsibilities, including abortion, birth control
--replacing the current dysfunctional sex culture with a sex positive one
--in developing countries: access to health care, education, birth control
So what disagreement do you have with the term feminist? What is your response to the critiques offered above that many self-identified progressive men, even ones who work in the field of Human Rights, avoid like the plague being identified as "feminist?"
First off, I have heard plenty of opinions from women who call themselves feminist that I strongly disagree with. I'm aware that feminism at this point is a large enough arena of thought that there are competing ideas on what feminism means, and what the way forward is.
I agree strongly with the quote, "Feminism is the radical idea that women are people." or the attitude that feminism is women doing what *they* want. That brand of feminism I can get behind and fully support.
The brand of feminism that I do not support is the type where the "orthodox" feminist goes around telling people (men and women) to change the way they have sex, or participate in relationships.
The other major reason I resist the feminist label is that "feminism" feels focussed on one gender, and not inclusive to me (a white, almost entirely straight, male, American). According to some versions of feminism, I'm the enemy! That makes it a bit hard to gravitate to the label.
I always thought a more important question for feminist is not "why are they not more male feminist?" but "why are they not more female feminist?"
Also, when men encounter feminist that say 'men can't really be feminist, but they can be pro-women or pro-feminism' they see quite quickly that the vanilla flavor of feminism (feminism is the idea that women and men are equals) is utter crap as they define themselves completely separate from men.
Also, men and women that eschew the feminist lable for a other label such as an equal rights or civil rights advocate do so because they see that in many instances feminist don't act on a social problem unless it has a female face.
For example, many feminist define poverty in the terms of the prevalence of women in poverty. Their first focus on war is the harm females encounter. Suicide, viewed through a feminist lens is a woman's problem as more women (or gay or lesbians) attempt suicide, not a masculine problem because men more are sucessful.
Also, the complete distaste and mockery exhibited towards all MRAs is disgusting. I know some good men who have had their children taken away from them becuase of a dirty divorce. But some feminist, rather than understanding that loosing access to ones children is the most emotionally painfully situatoin someone can encouter, decide to mock Male Rights Advocatees.
Why would I, or the father who can no longer see his children call himself a feminist when feminist treat moderate MRA's with such distain?
To be clear, there are moderate feminist that the above criticism does not apply too, but often times they do not see how their compatriots actions and beliefs would be perceived by others and so they ask "Why don't more men call themselves feminist?"
A thousand times yes on this one:
2. advocating for more family friendly work policy for all and changing the culture of work machismo among men
It's a sign of a sick culture when working 80 hours a week and having no time for family or community or self-care is considered admirable, and anyone who's not willing or able to do that is just insufficiently committed.
Equality in household work and childrearing.
Male responsibility for pregnancy prevention.
I want to see more discussion from everyone about child care. Better yet, I want it to become a national priority. I want to work but can't afford to - the cost of child care is too high. See: http://www.momsrising.org/childcare
Child care is prohibitively expensive for many families, and yet at the same time child care workers are generally poorly paid. Which should say a lot about the real value of the unpaid labor that (mostly) women do in the home, and how much the economy really owes to them.
I will be using child care starting later this year, and I am uncomfortably aware that I will be using the labor of poorly-paid women to maintain my own career and middle class lifestyle. That's not right. It's also not right to consign all but the wealthiest women (and they would mostly be women) to the home because child care is priced out of everyone else's reach. We need to get this out of the realm of "women's issues" and start considering child care and flexibile work schedules to be legitimate needs of the labor force, period.
Yes, this is a problem. Why can't we have government subsidized child care? And you know, maybe higher some of the awesome men and women who go into the educational field/teaching credential programs and pay them a good salary? That is exactly the kind of person I want running a day-care. Make it educational, fun, safe, and for the love of god, reasonably priced.
Rape and domestic violence are at the top of my list of issues, and I think that the education of men is a huge part of what needs to be done about them.
The sports thing feeds into both issues because of the way "win at all costs" is infecting athletics at all levels in this country. I grind my teeth every time one of our local players (I live in a college town) gets accused of domestic violence, and the coach keeps him in for the big game. Ethics and honor used to be a big part of athletics, and there is a way to incorporate them that isn't patriarchal and anachronistic.
Subtle institutional sexism, like camaraderie leading to men who are "in the circle" getting first crack at promotions, or medical studies that take the male body as the norm.
Gender stereotyping leading to assumptions/shaming about individual variations. False syllogisms like:
Girls prefer dolls to trucks.
X is a girl.
therefore
I should buy X a doll for her birthday.
and it's flipside:
Girls prefer dolls to trucks.
X, a girl, likes trucks.
therefore
X is defective in some way and must be corrected.
Anybody who pulls that shit with my daughter is going to get a boot in their ass.
We should probably also examine the male tendency to want to use violence to solve problems.
1. comprehensive sexual education that include critical conversations about rape, power, and violence with men AND teaches men what and where the clit is (just sayin')
> This is the most important point for me. More men need to understand that a woman can do nothing to "deserve" rape and that any "sex" without consent is rape.
2. advocating for more family friendly work policy for all and changing the culture of work machismo among men
> I don't really understand what is meant by "work machismo" but I agree that workplaces should be free of harassment concerns.
3. reflecting on how much $$ goes into male athletic culture, and how linked it is to violence off the field
> Athletes should definitely be held to the same criminal standards as any other person. Aside from that, I don't really understand the problem as a feminist problem. If there was some data that suggests that money funneled into sports does not go back into the economy, I might see the problem, but plenty of companies use sports games as venues for advertising.
4. changing the culture to give men more permission to identify, manage, and talk about their emotions
> This implies that there's something inherently wrong with stoicism, which is just as bad as suggesting that emotions are to be suppressed for the sake of "manliness".
5. an intersectional approach to incarceration, poverty, and race that includes a gender analysis
> Important, although I see this more as a race issue than a feminist issue. Also, what about an "approach" is actionable?
Vital, vibrant discussion. It's really important for these conversations (electronic or in person) to happen. Thoughtful men must engage other men, as Jackson Katz helps us to understand.
It may be embedded in the above discussion, but I would like to underscore a key element from my experience: men relating to each other openly, honestly, with warmth.
Emotional isolation and posturing among men keep us from really knowing and caring about each other. It may or may not be a sound thesis: Men who relate well to other men will feel more connected, more accountable, more emotionally grounded resulting in greater balance in our lives and less need to control others--other men, women, children.
Keep up the great dialogue!
This post makes me very happy. Thanks for it.
I think this is a great list and I agree with all 5. Especially with the one about sports. I also wish more feminist men would support women's sports. It's totally sexist when men won't watch women's sports under the excuse that "they are boring" because women generally don't dunk basketballs.
One issue I want more men to talk about, and is one I educate about regularly, is bystander intervention especially surrounding "jokes" as well as media accountability. I can't count the amount of times I've heard feminist men make homophobic or sexist jokes and expect to get away with it because they are "down" or whatever. Total bullshit. As for media accountability, it's not enough to just not give your money to companies (IE Axe) that promote sexism, you need to voice your opinion on it - not necessarily at corporate offices but to your friends, in workshops, etc.
Another thing feminist need to take about is space. Not even the abstract idea of "safe space," but physical space. All space is gendered. Think about how much space you take up on the street, in a bus, on a train. I was surprised when I first realized how I was always imposing on other people (particularly women). I'm sure I'm still doing it but just not noticing, though I am trying. Additionally, the very real fear of men's violence that women are socialized to have manifests itself on street blocks at night and so on. This is something that is important to me because I feel when one thinks of "gendered spaces" and realizes that public settings are gendered as well, it shows just how pertinent and real the idea of patriarchy is.
I totally agree with #1. Many of the feminist men I know (including myself at times) are threatened by a woman getting pleasure ESPECIALLY without a man. Many times heterosexual women don't want a man, and that's fine, and it needs to be discussed. Sexual pleasure is a right for all people. Additionally, we should also be taking about trans bodies and intersexed bodies and what pleasure looks like for everyone. I also cannot say how much I agree with the idea of talking about power and control in relation to healthy, consensual sex. Sex: It's not just about procreation anymore!
Another thing feminist need to take about is space. Not even the abstract idea of "safe space," but physical space. All space is gendered. Think about how much space you take up on the street, in a bus, on a train. I was surprised when I first realized how I was always imposing on other people (particularly women).
Yes, this! I didn't notice this for the longest time, but now that I have, I can't even tell you how frustrating it is. Especially since I think a lot of the time it's something guys do without even realizing it, but it makes women really uncomfortable and can even feel threatening at times. I'm not exactly sure how to address this, as the issue of men not even noticing that they're doing it needs to be addressed first, but this is definitely an issue that feminist men could take on and I'm glad it's something you're willing to work on.
Another feminist male checking in.
I don't think the OP was directing her question regarding important issues specifically toward men.
I interpret the OP as asking is what issues we men would be uniquely situated to address. To me this would include objecting to sexist jokes and countering misperceptions about feminism. (These are the only ways I can think of for challenging machismo.)
Other feminist issues like comprehensive sex ed, reproductive rights, family-friendly work policies (to name a few examples that I support wholeheartedly) are certainly important, but I don't understand why these issues would be singled-out for attention by feminist men.
But what's the next step? What can I do to help?
I found this on Feminism 101: FAQ: What can I do for feminism?
Any other ideas?
Wholehearted shout out for the challenge to more men to take on the role - and label - of feminist. And to not be afraid to talk about it and explain why they do.
I'd add an issue I specifically wish more feminist gay men were taking on - challenging other gay men when they use misogynist verbage such at "bitch" and think it's funny. From a gay dude who doesn't think it's funny any more.
From the perspective of a young black male feminist who happens to be gay, I think that condemning men for physically abusing women fails to recognize the context of the society that raised these men. They are the real victims. Society tells them they must "love the pretty girl" and "be a man". Men of color are particularly at risk and under served. Making a judgment that "hitting a woman is wrong" is the height of Euro-centric arrogance and a failure to recognize the strength that lies in our diversity. The beating of women is not an issue that can be summed up on some republitard bumper sticker. It is a nuanced issue that requires thoughtful consideration within the context of the culture and the society. As a feminist, I reject the portrayal of women as weak and needing protection form men. Usually men of color. Case in point. Mr. Mixon, who was murdered by the Oakland Gestapo. His sexual relationship with a 12 year old neighbor has been turned from the beautiful thing it was into something else because it is being held up to a white, suburban standard that denies the culture of the area where the relationship took place. Making love often begins at age 10 or earlier in the African American community. The white ruling class can't accept this, so the declare open season on young black men.