Pope says condoms increase AIDs problem
File this under: WTF.
Pope Benedict XVI said on his way to Africa Tuesday that condoms were not the answer in the continent's fight against HIV, his first explicit statement on an issue that has divided even clergy working with AIDS patients."You can't resolve it with the distribution of condoms," the pope told reporters aboard the Alitalia plane headed to Yaounde, Cameroon, where he will begin a seven-day pilgrimage on the continent. "On the contrary, it increases the problem."
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Welcome to Catholicism. Abandon logic and truth all ye who enter here.
If only. The catholic church abandoning logic and truth would be a great leap forward from its current and historical stand of dragging logic and truth out back to be shot.
That's funny. It'd be more funny if it weren't true, but shoot... what can ya' do?
Words fail me.
I actually just blogged about this too.
Plain and simple this will cause deaths.
Wow, the Catholic Church is really on a roll this month.
In order to know the pope, you need to think like a Catholic. What's a problem Catholic's are against?
Sex outside of marriage.
Thus, maybe he's saying giving them condoms allows them to have more sex outside of marriage, thus increasing the problem?
It makes sense, in a Catholic sort of way.
I don't agree with in, in the least bit, but that just might be what he meant?
You are absolutely right. The problem, to him, is not HIV/AIDS or deaths from it. The problem is sex outside or before marriage. If everyone marries a virgin and doesn't have sex with anyone else, the epidemic would slow down drastically. To him no doubt HIV/AIDS is God's retribution for sin.
What an asshole. Another argument for atheism, counterposed against Handel and the Sistine Chapel.
Hee hee! You just called the Pope and asshole!
Well, he is. Not only that, he's a fucking asshole. He's completely self-interested and short sighted.
Jon O'Brien of Catholics for Choice responds:
http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/ThePopeisWrongonCondoms.asp
Yes, it's all condoms, not backward thinking about contraception, superstitions, rape and poverty. What a prick.
This is the quote from bbc.com:
"Before arriving in Cameroon's capital, Yaounde, the Pope said HIV/Aids was "a tragedy that cannot be overcome by money alone, that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which can even increase the problem"."
So, I'm wondering if the quote was taken out of context or if he was misquoted. Did he say that condoms do increase the problem, or did he say that they can increase the problem. This might be an important distinction, because realistically, simply handing out condoms without accompanying educational tools could theoretically make the problem worse.
Or am I way off here...?
While I understand where you're going with your comment, it still would not make logical sense to say that the distribution of condoms would make the problem worse. Even if you pass them out without education backing them up, then the condoms would be forgotten about, and the problem would stay where it is rather than getting much worse, if that makes sense.
I spent 4 month in South Africa last spring, and I do agree with the Pope that just distributing condoms won't work. Some of the cultural practices surrounding sex prohibit the use of condoms. So you can pass out as many condoms as you want, but people won't necessarily use them. Many men think using condoms is stigmatized, and many women are not in positions to ask their partners to use condoms. So it's not enough to just pass out condoms, we need to understand their culture and why they are hesitant to use condoms. Although I'm sure this is NOT what the Pope meant in his quote, I do agree that this issue will not be resolved simply by the distribution of condoms. To everything else he said: WTF?!
I've never seen anyone saying that simply passing out condoms is enough; many organizations are trying to educate and change commonly held beliefs. I wish the Pope would recognize and appreciate that, even though those organizations may not be religious ones.
But the Pope isn't saying that condoms prevent HIV yet a deeper change of belief and behavior is needed. He's flat out charging that condoms have a negative effect and that distributing them increases the problem. Because, I assume, it takes away from a more spiritual solution.
How will this do anything but increase and validate the unwillingness to use condoms?
(Not directed at you specifically, rita! I appreciated your comment but get so frustrated about the Catholic Church's position on combating HIV.)
*facepalm*
Man, I hate this pope.
People dying isn't a problem to the pope. People dying in what he perceives to be a state of sin, however, is a problem to the pope. Having sex with condoms is a sin, condemning whoever uses a condom or allows her partner to use a condom to hell absent true confession and penance. Using condoms to fight AIDS condemns people to hell.
Spreading AIDS is a sin, but fighting sin with sin is a wash in the pope's book. Little things like death don't matter when eternal souls are at stake. Such is the thinking of the pope.
Insert either generic funny hat comment or child molesting priests comment here.
haha!
Because, you know, we should LISTEN to the advice of a celibate male in matters of sexual health....
The pope's celibacy is the least of the problems with listening to him about matters of sexual health. His misogyny, homophobia, belief that sex is a sin, and refusal to put science first are much more problematic. If the pope were regularly achieving orgasm with the help of someone else it would be no less a folly to listen to him about sex than it is now.
I wish the pope were just some remnant of a bygone, illogical era but people still listen to him.
What's not to love about an organization that preaches the values of humble living and celibacy, while surrounded by decadence (Prada, anyone?) and molesting children?
Actually, the shoes are not Prada.
Did the pope EXPLAIN why he believes this? Because if he didn't that would be too funny. It would be like him saying "I'm the pope, so you should believe what I think about sex, because I know ALL about that."
I believe in reaching out - as I Unitarian Universalist, I believe we ought to have a dialogue about our beliefs and values, as to not only see the other side, but also accomplish something together with them.
But, my God, can we stop with the blanket statements like the ones the Pope is making? The effectiveness is not a matter of opinion, and anyone who says otherwise is merely denying science, and worst, spreading ignorance. It's no different than, say, black people are stupid.
I don't really care how people want to reach the divine and how they worship, but when the things they believe in can result in deaths and is a step back from progress, it's time to call bullshit.
Having respect for one's right to worship is different than putting up with their bullshit. I, for one, am tired of the Catholic Church's bullshit.
Marc
a-MEN.
Me too. But what can we do about it?
Talked to a doctor about this today and he explained to me that there is actually a potential statistical case for this - of course, it's not the case that condoms aggravate the problem - if they're correctly used. Apparently some studies have discovered that freely distributed condoms aren't always used the way they're supposed to be used, but as some kind of magic device to protect the owner. So, if condoms are lying on the nighstands while the 'owner' is having unprotected sex it won't do much to protect but may indeed have aggravating behavioral consequences if people believe they're protected.
But be that as it may, the Catholic Church isn't telling the entire story behind its argument.
In the parts of Africa (Cape Verde, Angola, Senegal) where I have lived this is not the case. Everyone knows what the condom is for, even in the smallest most remote towns. Many people do not use them however, and cite the church's stance on birth control as the reason.
(I understand it's hypocritical for the individual to completely ignore the whole no sex outside marriage stance but adhere to the no birth control stance, but that is my experience.)
Also, I doubt there is much of a statistical case. I would really like to read these studies about magic condoms increasing the spread of HIV.
It is amazing to see how many people (guys that I have known especially) are very willing--eager even--to go against the catholic church's stance on pre-marital/outside of marriage sex, but who think that birth control is an abomination.
"Also, I doubt there is much of a statistical case. I would really like to read these studies about magic condoms increasing the spread of HIV."
Me too, I had to take his word for it. I mean, I can understand that a lot of seemingly magical stuff is happening in Africa, and not everything can be judged my Western standards of assumed rationality, but this just seemed so unbelievable. Unfortunately, he couldn't come up with the source on the spot. May have to google it.
I dunno... pretty much every African I've ever met or been in touch with is rational - well, at least as rational as these damn crazy New Yorkers on my block. When are we gonna stop believing that people on the continent of Africa are a bunch of ultra-superstitious witch doctors and shit?
I mean, last time I checked, the Vatican was in Italy and Benedict is from Germany... so let's shift the focus back to those fruitcakes, eh?
I mean, dang, I see a couple of people on here trying to put words in Benedict's mouth to make him sound more sensible and whatnot... but those are your words, not his.
Also, please name something that happens "in Africa" that's more magical than people eating wafers that turn into human flesh in their mouths?
Oh, and when Benedict was talking about "the problem" that condom distribution exacerbates, he wasn't talking about the problem of "sin;" he was talking about the problem of the HIV epidemic.
Final thought: is "study" a magic word? Because I see folks all the time making absurd assertions and then saying such asinine claims came from some uncited study, as if that somehow validates the stupidity of said claims.
Aren't their myths that if you have AIDS and have sex with a virgin you will be cured? Hasn't that led to an increase in rapes of girls under the age of 10? I'm really asking these questions, because I've read about it in several places.
I think this is the sort of "superstitious" thinking that people think about in connection with the AIDS epidemic in Africa. And I think it is understood that not every person in Africa holds these nonsense superstitions. Just like its assumed that not everyone in the US believes that douching with Coca-Cola will keep you from getting pregnant, even though there are people that think that.
I never thought I'd say this, but fuck the pope. This is beyond irresponsible.
I am shocked. It's so irresponsible and disgusting that words fail me, but it does remind me of what he said over Christmas about how homosexuality was a bigger worry than the environment... what is WRONG with this Pope?
This pope is reactionary, plain and simple. He wants to undo Vatican II, and go back to the "golden age" of the high middle ages (any day now he'll start raising an army...).
One major problem, from a progressive point of view, is that the progressive parts of the world are getting less and less Catholic, so those voices in the Church are getting fewer and easier to ignore. Catholicism (and most other Christianities) is growing the fastest in non-Western, third-world countries, which are generally not progressive to begin with on things like sex and women's rights. As an institution like the Catholic Church gains power, misogyny, homophobia, violence, patriarchy, and fear of sex become not only traditional but mandated. Some of the most conservative dioces in the world are in the southern hemisphere.
There's a strange interplay going on in Catholicism. Its presence in non-Western countries is a weird mix of colonialism and real non-Western power in the Church (one of the men on the short list for succeeding John Paul II was African, and a large number of new priests are coming out of places like India and Africa). Unfortunately, but not surprisingly, all of this equals problems for women's rights, gay rights, and sexual health in developing countries.
I know. The papacy is still an important office to many people, Catholic or not (my feminist Orthodox self included), and this pope is doing his best not to move the Church forward into the 21st century as so desperately needs to happen, but to cause it to regress. Catholics and knowledgeable people: is there a way that he can be recalled?
If you wish to understand where the Catholic Church is coming from, then you need to at least read Humanae Vitae(http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html), and then get a basic understanding of the Theology of the Body (http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0109.html)
I hate to say it because I am a deeply embittered lapsed Catholic and think the church's views on this (among other things...but particularly contraception) ARE disgusting...
The "sexual revolution" in THIS country didn't necessarily make everyone take children or the consequences of sex more seriously...it just meant that people didn't rush to the altar when a couple inevitably got knocked up. It makes us culturally permissive towards ALL sex outside marriage, safe or otherwise. Blame the individual and collective permissive attitudes taking a gift like condoms (if not other, less accessible forms of contraception) for granted, I suppose.
(Am I missing something? Regarding sexual behavior HERE, have they stopped selling condoms in drug stores? It is horrific that government treats birth control like a 'choice' while erectile dysfunction is a "health problem" worthy of insurance coverage, but I am baffled at how this site insists leaves condoms out of the picture when discussing birth control and sexual health, unless the topic is about individuals who actually choose to take advantage them...nothing about those who have access to them, know what they're for, are NOT coerced against using them...they simply don't care what happens...not giving a shit and being surrounded by peers who don't care is just chalked up to one more "barrier.")
I think religion trying to crush science in circumstances like this is nothing short of criminal, but as others have said...unfortunately condoms alone can't change everything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_Uganda
The politics and negotiation of sex (and treatment of women and their bodies) have to change. In that context monogamy actually helps. But try enforcing it; also, obviously monogamy doesn't matter much once someone's partner/spouse already has HIV.
I'm not defending him and agreeing with him because his motivation is worth shit. The Pope didn't bother to explain himself because he is speaking on behalf of dogma, not contemporary human needs. The church needs to stay the f*ck out of medicine and the law, if this is what they're going to offer.
Um... I'm kinda lost in this comment.
Which part of distributing condoms as a part of a public health initiative to stem the HIV epidemic is a "sexual revolution?" It's not like folks are going to Uganda with arms full of condoms screaming "FREE LOVE!"
Um, and while your grammar made it difficult to completely get what you were saying, I think you were arguing that feministing doesn't talking about partner- and social-coercion against condom use as well as access.
How, then, do you explain stories like these. Just a few... you can use the incredible feministing search box to read even more!
Fidelity is what matters, though. Honesty is what matters. Partners who cheat (ie, have dishonest sexual relations) sacrifice public health on the altar of self-gratification. But monogamy isn't the only alternative to infidelity. Oftentimes, I think, it can encourage infidelity, as some people just aren't cut out for it.
Finally, you've got to recognize that this site isn't a "free love" website and that promoting birth control and contraception is very different than promoting the "sexual revolution." We live in society that is very repressed, yet has ample outlets for that repression. Y'all remember that study on porn in red states? And do you think that we would be less sexually permissive if there were fewer contraceptive options available? I mean, that's like blaming antibiotics for people catching bronchitis.
So, the Pope is saying that condoms won't work because there are cultural superstitions that mean people won't use them.... such as Catholicism, perhaps?
The Pope doesn't care if people die because after all, he believes in an afterlife. To him it's not death. And if people die in sin (ie having had sex outside of marriage, having used birth control etc) they go to hell and to him, that's fair enough because they ignored the word of 'God'. If people die having repented, or having not used condoms with their infected spouse and so forth (because let's not forget that once you're married you have to have sex to procreate, right?) it doesn't matter if they die of AIDS or anything else, because 'God' will lift them up into heaven and sit them on their own special cloud and everything will be lovely forever because they've been correctly 'moral'. The same reward awaits a child that has been born with HIV and died young from AIDS because its father infected its mother (but only if it's been baptised of course!). And so on.
It makes me angry. When PZ Myers called Catholicism a 'wacky cult' he wasn't wrong.
I understand caring more about the afterlife than real life (if you believe in an afterlife which I certainly don't). But what about ending suffering??
Mother Teresa was the same way. She wanted to increase the suffering of the already suffering, thinking that the pay off will be in heaven.
I blogged about this years ago upon the death of John Paul II (you'll have to take my word on it because I nuked the site); in essence this is a straight continuation of his policies filtered through the African bishops.
Heaven forfend that lethal diseases and crippling overpopulation be fought by reasonable means.
The idea of a supposed holy man, who is considered a moral leader for millions, knowingly giving people advice (or more like law) that can actually cause them real, physical harm is unspeakably evil.
What a fucking asshole.
I think the Pope's comments run the risk of making people feel like they shouldn't wear condoms while having sex. afterall, if the head of the catholic faith thinks they are dangerous it sends a powerful message against responsible sex to people.
More on this perspective can be found here: http://www.ricoexplainsitall.com/politcs-economy/2009/3/20/sex-and-the-vatican-city.html
I think the campaign of "have safe sex" is far more dangerous, since it tells people if you wear a condom, it's now safe! When in reality, there's still much risk.
Wow - a Harvard Research Scientist for AIDS Prevention is in agreement with the Pope and Catholic Church on the matter.
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15445
I mean, it does make sense in a catholic sort of way. Their view: No sex before marriage. Therefore, if you give the people condoms they will, *gasp* do what humans do, and have sex. Really this kind of logic confuses me. Wouldn't you want to prevent AIDS? So then giving them condoms would help prevent that, seeing how there is no way in hell the Pope can stop people from having sex. Not going to happen. Why would you listen to him anyway. The Pope thing is something else that confuses me. I don't see God giving his/her authority to some man who has no idea about the real world and what is going on in it. Uh!
Sorry everyone, you're wrong. Condoms enforce a risky behavior that in-of-itself increases the overall likelihood of contracting aids. If you abstain from sex, you won't get aids from sexual contact. You have sex with a condom, you think you're "safe" and engage in more encounters and potentially riskier acts during sex. Sorry to break it to you, but the Pope is correct.
http://www.zenit.org/rssenglish-25480
Quote from article:
The director of an African AIDS care center is supporting Benedict XVI's words about the ineffectiveness of condoms in the struggle against the spread of the disease. In an interview published online March 20 by Il Sussidario, Busingye said that "those who contribute to the polemics over the Pope's statements must in reality understand that the true problem in the spread of AIDS in Africa is not condoms; talking about this would be to stop at the consequences and never go to the origin of the problem."