Forever 21 to start plus size clothing line
Forever 21 has announced that they will launch a plus size clothing line beginning in May.
The Forever 21 plus-size line, called Faith 21, will feature items similar to other Forever 21 clothing, including flirty dresses, trendy tops, skirts, jeans and basics such as T-shirts, camisoles, tanks and leggings. The target customer is age 15 to 29. Junior plus sizes include XL, 1X and 2X. Prices will range from $3.80 to $29.80.
Alright. There are obvious issues with Forever 21 (see claims of sweat shop labor) and I take issue with Forever 21 having to create a special line of clothing (Faith 21? what does that even mean?) for sizes that represent the majority of women in the US. But, things like this mean more women, and particularly young women might actually be able to find clothing in mainstream stores that fit them.
Thanks to Jeff for the link
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Forever 21 is owned by a evangelical Christian. The names refer to bible verses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forever_21#Bible_reference
Oh yea, I know. I hate it. I bought some accessories there and when I went home I saw John 3:16 on the bottom. It freaked me out. I googled it and found out it was done purposely. Crrrreeeeepppyyy.
Ew. I thought "Forever 21" was some sort of reference to staying young or something. Vomit.
&%^#ers, really? Why is nothing cheap also not made by an evil company? I do not do thrift stores (very sensitive skin/ no time to rifle through bins), but I just one ONE clothing company that is not in league with the devil (or worse, with Jesus).
Oh man, seriously? I always thought it was clothing for 21-year olds...
Wait, I followed that link and it says they put John 3:16 on their shopping bags but it doesn't say what "forever" or "21" reference.
Other companies do this, too:
"The phrase "John 3:16" is very short and can be written inconspicuously in out-of-the-way locations. In the U.S., the In-N-Out Burger chain prints it on the inside of the bottom rim of their paper cups, clothing chain Forever 21 prints it on the bottom of their shopping bags, and Tornado Fuel Saver prints it on the box."
From the John 3:16 wikipedia page. Et tu In-N-Out?
What's so wrong with printing a Bible verse on shopping bags? I actually think it's a subdued, relatively nice mode of evangelizing. It's not like Don Chang is bombing abortion clinics or anything... There's just nothing offensive about that particular verse, either. There are lots of reasons one could be opposed to Forever 21, but I don't see how Mr. Chang's religion is one of them.
Some of us don't even like the "nice" versions of promoting religion--because even mild forms of evangelism are part of the same problem that extremism is. Just because one is more "nice" than the other--it still has the same purpose: to convert people to its cult.
I guess I'd disagree with the statement that "mild forms of evangelism are part of the same problem that extremism is." Or the implication that all kinds of Christianity are a cult.
I'm an atheist, but I rather tire of fellow atheist who throw the religion baby out with the bathwater. Religion oftentimes offer comfort, provoke thought, and stimulate morality for many, many people. I won't deny that extreme forms of Christianity (and every other religion or ideology under the sun) have had harmful effects on everything from foreign relations to gender norms. If, for instance, proof were offered that the president of XXI were donating big bucks to abstinence-only programs or somesuch, I'd be more sympathetic to the hostility directed at the Bible verse.
No such proof has been presented and, indeed, the only thing that seems to be outraging people is that Mr. Chang is a Christian. It's ignorant to lump all devout Christians together, as "evil" (the words of Katie) or a "cult."
As an atheist, *I* tire of fellow atheists who pander to religion as "harmless" and "giving people hope" and all that garbage. Religion is NOT harmless, and for every millimeter of good it does people on a personal level, it does a gallon of damage to ours and other societies.
I will not budge on this. I think religion causes a lot of damage, and as an atheist I will never stop fighting it. Now, I do not agree with telling people they CANNOT practice a religion, but I hope for a world when people all come to their senses and religion is abolished/unneeded.
Now, Forever 21 is in their legal right to print Bible verses on their bags. I am in my legal right to not shop there (which I do no) and to hold their opinion that they are attempting to shove their religion down their customer's throats.
If we feel ok about "mild" forms of religion, why not "mild" forms of sexism: anti-women jokes, sexist advertising, and printing girls' t-shirt with "skanky brat" and the like aren't TECHNICALLY harming anyone (like rape and domestic violence do) but they are part of the same problem.
I used to be just as hardline as you. I was thirteen. I grew out of it.
A Muslim woman wearing a headscarf is far more in-your-face than a discrete bible-verse at the bottom of a shopping bag. Does that mean women can't wear headscarfs?
Forever 21's evangelizing is about as unobtrusive as possible. Most people don't even notice the Bible verse. The most political thing I've ever seen in the store is a Barack Obama t-shirt, which is much more noticeable than a discrete Bible verse.
I'm an atheist. That doesn't mean I have to be intolerant.
A Muslim woman wearing a headscarf is far more in-your-face than a discrete bible-verse at the bottom of a shopping bag. Does that mean women can't wear headscarfs?
First of all, headscarves are cultural as well as religious. Secondly, I do not think women shouldn't be NOT ALLOWED to wear headscarves. However, I do think it is an offensive, sexist, and obtrusive practice but they have every right to choose that for themselves. Do I disagree with their choice? Yes. Do I blame them for their choice? No. Do I think that Islam, along with every other religion, is damaging, sexist, useless, silly, and made-up? Of course. But I am not running around snatching headscarves off of women.
Forever 21's evangelizing is about as unobtrusive as possible. Most people don't even notice the Bible verse. The most political thing I've ever seen in the store is a Barack Obama t-shirt, which is much more noticeable than a discrete Bible verse.
But it is still that: evangelizing. That is my problem. Not that "oh it's harmless" but the fact that they feel the need to evangelize to their customers in the first place is what is offensive.
I'm an atheist. That doesn't mean I have to be intolerant.
How is it intolerant to choose NOT to shop at a store that CHOOSES to evangelize to its customers. Please explain.
Getting your knickers into a twist over a nearly completely unnoticeably bible verse just seems like making a huge deal out of nothing. The store is Christian, and that's what they are. I'm not even sure that a bible verse on the bottom of a shopping bag where most people never even notice it qualifies as evangelizing.
There are good reasons to not shop at Forever 21. The bible verse isn't one of them.
My knickers aren't in a twist, thank you, and I fail to see how using such sexist, dismissive language helps you argue your point. If Forever 21 printing their bags with Bible verses was the only "harmless" religious evangelizing out there, than maybe I wouldn't be aggravated. But it is one in a long line of businesses that feel the need to integrate religion, like Chick-fil-a, Hobby Lobby, and so on. And these "little" instances are all part of a bigger problem, to me which is religion in general.
I am confused is to why you care so much about me choosing to not shop at Forever 21 because they are a Christian company. Do you work there or something? Because seriously, there is no reason for the rude and dismissive language and the assumptions made on your part.
I don't care whether or not you shop at Forever 21, and I don't consider "knickers in a twist" to be particularly sexist.
I do think it's unnecessary to get as upset as you seem to be over something that harmless. Like I've said, there are many reasons not to shop at Forever 21 but I don't think that's one of them.
Anyone with any kind of political views, particularly those that vary from the mainstream, needs to make an extra effort to understand that not everyone is the same. I also really dislike your attitude towards religion.
Well I guess it's a good thing that I don't give a damn what you think.
I agree with you. I'm against religion period. And it'd be my preference thet they'd keep bible references out of it-I see enough god/religion related stuff every day, thanks. But I'm not forcing them to stop it, or screaming at them.To me it's not intolerance, it's being sick of religion.
How would you feel if you went shopping and came home to discover a discrete feminist quote printed on the bottom of your shopping bag?
I'd think it's weird. There's a lot better ways of going about things then putting sayings on shopping bags. Oh, and to me, I wouldn't mind-I stated I'm against religion, so of course I'd despise a religious thing on my things. And considering this is a feminist blog, you'd think I wouldn't mind a feminist saying, no?
Word. Some of us find the Bible itself to be offensive and don't want to hear about it when we go shopping.
I give up. You're all disgusting hypocrites.
How am I a hypocrite? Seriously, way to respond maturely to dialogue.
You know what? I *wouldn't* want a feminist quote on a shopping bag, unless it was from Bluestocking's or something, any more than I'd want a quote from John McCain or Barack Obama.
Why would you care? It's on the bottom of your shopping bag. It's easy to ignore. If it bothers you so much, don't shop there.
Stating generally that you find the bible "offensive" bothers me and I'm a fairly hardcore atheist. Some people find feminism "offensive."
I *don't* shop there because I think it's hypocritical to spout off about your Christianity and then to abuse people and steal other people's designs to make a profit.
And if you find my views about the Bible offensive, then I suggest that you don't go to my store--which I don't even have. You see, there's a difference between public and private.
Clearly, you don't get that the fact that it's there at all is the problem. I'd be just as peeved if it were from the Koran or Bhagavad Gita or The God Delusion--Yes, I wouldn't want something by Richard Dawkins on a shopping bag. People have a right to their views and a right to not be evangelized at every turn.
Are your opinions so weak that you can't stand being confronted with other opinions?
Honestly, it might be a good thing. People need to have their views challenged.
No, I just think that there's a time and place. I sell things on half.com and I'm an artist-crafter who sells her own work and I wouldn't consider putting a quote from God Is Not Great or even a pro-science quote in my packaging because I don't want to alienate people and I respect their right to believe what they want to without evangalizing. Did you ever stop and think that when I get a pair of panties that that's all I really want? When I look at those bags all I really see is another way that I don't fit into "mainstream" society. I don't want to have to think about some verse from a collection of stories that some people believe.
So if you want to shop there, do it. I don't even see why you care what I do, it's not like I'm preventing anyone or mandating the owners to remove the verse. I really don't care enough about horribly designed cheap clothing.
But I find it interesting that none of the Belief-Defenders on this thread has acknowledged the hypocrisy of being evangelical Christians but stealing other people's designs and abusing their labor. You call me hypocritical, *that's* fucking hypocritical! Christ, spare me from your followers.
Because feminism and religion are totally the same thing.
There are similarities between religious belief systems and political belief systems. Often, the two are inextricably tied together. So yes, feminism and religion have a lot in common.
But comparing people's distaste for religion to people who are anti-feminism-I don't think that's valid. I see religion as something that's used to control people, that is used much too often to excuse injustice and hatred. I don't see feminism the same way. Feminism is more about freedom than control (unless we're talking about a woman and her uterus). I don't see feminism being used to justify bigotry. To me, the two are at odds. Do most people feel that way? Probably not. But that's my view, I'm not advocating to take away the rights of religious people, and this is the view I have come to after a long time trying to find a belief system, and it never worked out, and I'm very happy with the result.
Are all religious texts offensive on principle? Or is the Bible itself, specifically, the text you take offense to?
While I'd agree that many interpretations of the Bible are offensive(hello Reverend Phelps of Westboro Baptist), I fail to see how, oh, the Unitarian Universalists and the Quakers use the Bible as a reactionary tool. The Bible is a document written to be interpreted. One can take much that is good from it, if one approaches it without the intention of condemning other people. Many progressive movements, in particular in the United States, were largely religious ones (abolition comes to mind). The Bible was a friend of the subjugated just as much it was a weapon of oppressors, particularly in race/class matters.
I view religion as a spectrum. On one end you have "harmless" cases like the Unitarians and Quakers and the other end you have the dangerous intolerant crazies. Either way, belief in something irrational and unproveable is dangerous. I'll never take away anyone's right to practice that belief but I'd rather not encounter it everywhere I turn.
A Bible quote, however small and unobtrusive, has no place on a bag for a shop hoping to service a lot of different people of a lot of different faiths.
Also, how Christlike is it to engage in sweatshop labor? Who Would Jesus Exploit?
does that mean feminist statements have no place where people who aren't feminist might read them? i don't concur with your logic. if forever 21 is paying for the bags to be printed, what's the problem?
i'm pretty horrified that this level of outright hostility toward a group of people is allowed on this site....calling christianity "evil" or "a cult" would never be allowed about people of say, jewish faith, or people of color, or people with a disability, or different sexuality or gender presentation. *THIS* is hypocritical.
If you actually read my comments, you'd know that personally I'd prefer that businesses stick to "Have a nice day--please recycle."
And it sounds like you have fatwah envy, so don;t even try to play "You wouldn't say that if you were----" To some of us, *all* religion is a cult. And religion so isn't the same as disability or race. You can choose religion, race and disability are traits that you can't control. Gender presentation doesn't hurt anyone, but religion hurts a person for every person it comforts.
so if all religion is a cult, espousing propaganda, then why not object to *all* advertising?
if you can't see why it's offensive to group all christians together with, say, jerry falwell, or communists with stalin, or vegetarians with PETA members, then i think you're the one with "fatwa envy", as you so delicately put it. holding every member of a group responsible for the actions of some...sounds like prejudice to me.
oh, wait, there's only one acceptable way to be a feminist. crap. i keep forgetting.
Wow, you love the drama. I didn't know that MoxieHart was the leader of all feminists. Holy flying spaghetti monster, what power! Pesto be with you.
bad design hurts, come back to me when you atcually reread my comments and stop reacting from an emotional place. Specifically, I recomend the one about religion being a spectrum. When you give your mind up to one illogical thing what more are you willing to believe in? How far will you go for faith but not logic?
Seriously, we've been through this before in about 5 other threads, I don't get why you're all surprised.
Ugh, I wrote my response to you just before I went to bed and I forgot to add two important things;
1. I would take issue with pretty much any religious OR atheist text. If I had a store I wouldn't put a quote from Richard Dawkins on my bags because I can acknowledge that not everyone shares the same beliefs and that there really is a time and a place for spreading/sharing your beliefs.
Also, while I can appreciate their literary value I find most religious texts offensive on principle. A lot of people take those stories about angel-raping literally.
2. For every social movement that religion has aided there have been people using religion against said movements. For every sermon about abolition being immoral and unChristian there was a serman about slavery being Biblically mandated and approved.
There is a lot of terrible shit in the bible. I get tired of the defense that it is "being interpreted wrong". Do people sometimes stress certain parts and ignore others to push their own views? Yes. However, the bad shit is in there also. I don't think religion has to be a bad thing but when you look at the time in which the bible was written and that only men wrote it, of course there is going to be sexist homophobic violent crap in there. For people who understand that and don't take the bible literally on everything and find comfort and beauty in it, more power to them. However, don't deny that the terrible parts are there. And don't put bible quotes on a shopping bag. I don't find it outrageously maddening, but when I want to read a biblical quote I will pick up the bible, go to church, etc. When I want to go shopping all I want is a shirt.
Admittedly, I've never read the Bible all the way through. It's something I've been meaning to do, especially since I eventually want to get my Master's in English.
But I've read passages and I can appreciate the translation as a beautiful piece of literature. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who take the offering your daughter to the crowd to rape in place of angels and the stoning disobediant daughters literally.
And seriously, if I'm buying panties I *just* want panties. I don't want a Watchtower with it.
THANK YOU.
I don't think that handing out religious messages in what appears to be a secular clothing store is appropriate. As dirtyrottenfeminist said, no matter how subtle it is, the purpose is to convert people.
IMO, there's not much difference between the store printing a Christian bible verse on the bottom of their shopping bag and people standing on street corners giving out leaflets about being "saved". But at least the people on the street corners are up front about what they are doing. The store doesn't let you know until after you've spend your money there.
FYI -- I just want to put out a little trigger warning on reading the comments on the linked article. It's full of fabulous people arguing about how offering "plus-sized clothing" (LMAO) is enabling Americans to be fat... because, you know, anyone over a size six is pretty porky.
Ugh. It's so annoying because, dude, that's just the way my body is shaped. No matter how much weight I lose, my hips are and boobs are just this size. I'm not willowy--I'll always have curves, which I guess means I'm a lazy fat-ass who should exercise more (to paraphrase the commentors from the linked article).
Grr.
Anyway, yeah, trigger warning.
I am so fucking excited I can hardly contain myself. I found out last week. I am so sick of buying shit from Torrid I dont know what to do. Its overpriced and cheap fabric. Hopefully this is just right priced and cheap fabric. But I pray to God that they don't have a total of 4 items...I have been feeling so frumpy lately! I need some clothes and I need them cheap and I need them fast. And I also hope I can fit them...oh no...maybe I wont. Junior Plus you say..hmm. Okay, excitement has died down.
It's actually sad that I was that excited in the first place...we need more plus size clothing. *sigh*
Um, Forever 21 makes Torrid look like couture. You wash a shirt once and it loses its shape.
I don't think I'll shop there, just because of the sweatshop labor, but then again, where can you get mainstream clothing that doesn't exploit people in the U.S.? I was glad when Maurice's decided to dump the men's line in favor for plus-sized. I can't always afford Lane Bryant. I guess hypocrisy reigns until the U.S. will get on board the Fair Trade train. Thanks Forever21. Thanks for affordable clothing my-size and for your sparkly floors that freak me out.
you can't get mainstream clothing that you know was ethically made. Unless of course it's fair trade, like you said.
I've got a big ass, and a big tummy, and big thighs - and I'm okay with it*. I also have a sense of style that does not include sequins, excessive floral print, or shirts made like potato sacks. I don't have a big budget for clothes, so I'm excited about a lower cost option. I just wish it wasn't coming from a company with such crappy labor practices. Of course as Ariel said, where can you shop that doesn't have crappy labor practics. I can't say for sure that I will shop there.
*I know that I should be a guilt-ridden mess over my size, but I'm just not. I guess my fat-shame gland is broken.
Forever 21 can suck a nut.
To anyone who "decides" to have a plus line, screw you. That only means that you willingly choose to stigmatize and ignore the majority of your demographic in the first place because of ignorance and discrimination.
I'd rather wear Goodwill hand-me-downs than buy into that idea of finally feeling "lucky".
At least now I understand why the collar I got there was so cheap....$2.80! Pink with studs! But if you have a pair of shoelaces, the person who made it was exploited... so it is hard to find anything made without crap labor...
On a side note, congratulations! I only liked the accessories I saw in there, and I'm fortunate enough to be small so places sell clothes in my size, but I can still be for weight equality, right?
I do have to laugh* at this, simply because Forever 21 sizes run so small that I probably need to shop in their plus size store. A while ago, I went there to find some inexpensive tank tops in colors that matched pajama pants I had bought at another store. I grabbed a small to try on, since that's what I wear in most other stores, and I actually ended up with needing an XL. They're STILL too tight for wearing out in public, but since I wear them to sleep in, they're fine.
And has anyone ever found a skirt there that covered your butt completely?
* laughter is directed at their ridiculous sizing, not at people needing larger sizes.
I know exactly what you're talking about, instead of making the sizes progressively larger they only make them longer. What is up with that?
Yes, exactly! I have to use a small hairclip to gather the spaghetti straps behind my back because they're too long and are always falling off my shoulders. But more room in the bust and stomach? Forget it.
Oh man. Having plus sized clothing for only $3.80 - $29.80 is awesome. If you go into any "plus-sized" trendy clothing store, the cheapest thing you can buy there is like $30 for a t-shirt. Because apparently being big means you have more money to spend on clothes... even though its only like a couple inches of extra fabric on either side.
Plus, do you know how many places there are for young girls to get trendy plus sized clothing? I've been pretty big my whole life and I could NEVER shop at those kinds of places as a kid and always had to wear stuff from the old ladies section as I called it.
Even though they should have had some of these sizes all along, I applaud them for finally realizing that there are bigger people that like to wear their clothes. I would've killed for this as a kid.
although creating a new line is bullshit. they should just put the sizes into their regular store.
Apparently the difference between a 33" inseam and 37" inseam is a good $100 dollars more.
I can't believe an XL is considered a plus size by Forever 21. I'm normally a size 10 and I need an XL and a lot of trendy stores don't carry them or don't carry many of them. I work at Target and our "regular sizes" go up through 18 in pants and an XXL in shirts then plus sizes start at 16W-18W.
I remember going to DEB to find a homecoming dress a few years ago and the L was too small so I ventured to the plus sizes. The 1X was hanging off of me. Finally, I found an XL but it was quite form fitting which was fine for my figure but I guarantee that many other people have this problem too.
Here's another reason to dislike Forever 21: They're plagiarists.
http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/?p=2509
They also ripped off a Wasted Youth t-shirt, I think...
I wonder what the actual sizing would be - would a 2x be relative to a 18/20?
I hope...if not...my ass is back to Lane Bryant...Ack.
heh heh heh, i have bought a few things at forever 21 before i knew about the sweatshops, and even though the clothes are my size, i think the store sucks. the clothes aren't fitted well and are so poorly made that they fall apart almost immediately.
i've been to lane bryant many times with my mom, and i think the clothes there are *far* nicer than forever 21, and for about the same amount of money. honestly, if they made clothes in a size 8-10 at lane bryant, i'd buy them. as it is, i try to shop at the limited or white house/black market when i can afford it, because the clothes are much better tailored for my figure (big boobs and butt, small waist)....those are pretty much the only places where i can buy pants that don't show off my coin slot the moment i sit down. ***sigh***
buying clothes sucks, no matter what size you are.
Yes, sort of amusing thing about this is that "plus size" probably means it will fit sizes 8-14. I am a size six and don't like tight clothes, so I often wear L or XL there. Why don't they just have a normal range of sizes? Who wants to be a size 10 (or any size for that matter) and have to buy something "plus sized." It would make so much sense just to have a nice, wide range of sizes. Ugg.
You can count on the fact that every single thing you can buy in the United States is made in sweatshops UNLESS you buy clothing that SPECIFICALLY says FAIR TRADE OR is ethically made in the usa. Note, just because it says made in the usa doesn't mean it's ethically made. Alot of times it says "Made in the USA" and it's made in a sweatshop in a US territory. So you really have to look into it for yourself.
As far as an ethical clothing company, I wouldn't suggest American Apparel since the CEO is a sexual harasser/misogynist. There's fair trade clothing companies online, here's one: No Sweat Apparel: http://nosweatapparel.com/
My solution is just to buy everything used. I figure, I don't want to be wasteful and buy something new unless I have too. That way, I'm not supporting those sweatshops AND I'm recycling! But when I need to buy something new I support fair trade.
Here's an organic made in the usa (in San Francisco) company that makes women's underwear and clothing: http://www.bluecanoe.com
you can also buy handmade on www.etsy.com However, just because it's handmade does not mean that the materials weren't made in a sweatshop. Alot of folks print on sweatshop clothing, or buy fabric made in sweatshops.
If anyone has questions about ethically shopping please message me and we can find a solution! sistersymbolism@yahoo.com
If only a single item of clothing there didn't cost half my weeks paycheck..
Why can't retail outlets carry sizes from 0-28? I know for a fact (as I used to work in a "plus-sized store") that there are many women who are tired of looking old before their time, or frumpy because there just aren't the clothes to fit us. It's depressing. But places like Ricki's carries sizes up to 18 (a small 18), but I would like to see more stores do the same in even more sizes, instead of segregating us, increasing the prices and making us feel like lepers.
They'd have to offer either less variety for all of those sizes, or expand the size of the already existing stores.
I can understand opening seperate stores in places where there is already an established Forever21. However, with the new stores they should just put them both in the same building. That might create problems with distribution though. I don't know. I'm not condoning segregation, I'm just trying to logic it out.
Er...for all the Torrid Haters: Torrid is affordable if you hit their 50% off clearance sales, which they have every couple months. Also, there are some cheaper stores in big cities, like Muse Plus, which is fairly trendy and colorful and has fantastic jeans, and exceptionally affordable.
What *shocks* me is that Forever 21 isn't talking about opening up separate stores like Hot Topic has for Torrid, because, hell, they're already segregating the types of clothes they offer, why not segregate the shoppers as well? At least Hot Topic still offers plus-size goth clothes in HT stores.
As someone who's on the cusp of plus-size and "regular" size this leaves me feeling...ehh.
There's the sweatshop issue and it's especially irksome since they're so publicly Christian. Sweatshop labor is so Christlike.
Plus, the fact that they've ripped off designs from designers that I love, Anna Sui and Betsey Johnson. Not cool.
Also, their clothes are cheap in the bad way. You'll wash them once and the items lose their shape and start unraveling.
I have been wanting to write a piece on the segregation of smaller and larger sized women's clothes for years. It absolutely baffles me the lengths that retailers go to when they actually do carry plus sizes to keep them as far away from the "normal" women's clothes as possible. When I want to shop at Macy's in San Francisco, I have to go THREE floors up past the smaller sized clothes, onto the floor with the children's clothes and into a back fucking corner of the store. And to add insult to injury, recently they installed a 10-ft. purple gorilla statue in the kids section whose HUGE fucking ass is facing the entrance to the women's department. That's all you see when you are entering/leaving the section. In Santa Barbara, the plus sizes were shoved into the top floor behind the god damn house wares. It is humiliating and insulting to say the least.
They probably have a million excuses for this ridiculous placement of the "Women's" department (i.e. don't want to mix up the sizes or some bullshit), but I know that they are really doing it because they don't want the skinny ladies to be turned off by the fat people clothes. Because everyone knows that NOBODY wants to see fat lady clothes.
I have just submitted a complaint to Macy's about this because I am feeling particularly pissed about it right now. I encourage others to do the same to stores that make them feel like they are "less than" because of their size.
Heh. You're so right about this. I shop at Herberger's a lot, and here's how they label their sizes: regular is "misses"; plus is "women's." What the hell is "misses"? Are skinny women youthful teenagers and fat women are old aging grandmas? Are "misses" not "women"? It's like skinny women are their own kind of non-woman species.
And seriously. I have to go to Lane Bryant - a "specialty" store, as you say - to find jeans that remotely fit me. Otherwise it's a joke to go jeans-hunting in a "regular," non-plus-size-oriented store. You'd think stores would wise up to the fact that skinny women aren't the only ones who want to buy nice, non-frumpy clothes. (I love the tops in Wet Seal, for example, but can't fit into any of them.)
While I see the problem with the manner in which plus-size clothing is placed apart, I'm not sure the concept of segregating different sizes itself is misguided.
Women of different sizes-- whether that's height or bust or weight-- need different clothing. Adding plus-sizes (or petite sizes) is just not a matter of enlarging (or contracting) a pattern. The proportions change. There might need to be an extra panel here, one less there, or a slightly different rise to the jean. Clothing should fit. And it won't unless it's designed with a particular type of body in mind.
That doesn't excuse the frumpiness of many plus-size lines, obviously. "Good fit" for a big woman does not mean "ugly," "shapeless," or "drab." But take your average XXI top: spaghetti-strapped with a deep V neckline, a waistband under the bust, and flowy fabric underneath that. Just scaling up the "M" will not make something that was designed for a size 2, 5'8", 34B girl look good on a size 20, 5'8", 38F girl. Most bigger bra sizes have thicker straps, so a thicker strap on the shirt might be appreciated. There needs to be more fabric on the bust, but not necessarily more in the back of the shirt. The size of the waistband might be adjusted to be more proportional to a bigger woman's body. Make these changes and you get a garment that is definitely the same style concept, but that is designed for a plus-size woman.
My view is colored by the fact that I'm short, but busty. It's difficult for me to find shirts that fit my arms and waist that also can (modestly) contain my breasts. A "S" gets some parts of my body right, but, because it's basically a shrunken "M" that's based on the proportions of the aforementioned size 2, 5'8", 34 B girl, it doesn't quite work. I love petite sizes, when I can find them, because they recognize that be small and still have womanly proportions. Unfortunately, not many stores make petite sizes for young women... I love Delia's petite jeans, but I have little luck with dresses, shirts, and the like. If XXI made "Forever Short" stores, I'd be ecstatic.
Basically, hiding the plus-size line like it's something shameful is insulting, but, if respectfully done, it might actually be a service to women to have separate stores for different sizes. That way, one can walk in, know that you don't have to wade through a mass of garments that will be nowhere near your size, and pick out something that is designed with your general body type in mind.
Now if people would start recognizing that tall girls need GOOD clothes too.
Good clothes meaning stuff that isn't the same quality as the overpriced crap at Alloy. Their jeans fall apart and fit HORRIBLY. Tall inseams != 34"
Speaking from my experiances with F21, I doubt that their so-called plus-size clothes will even be the size that most stores consider plus-sized. I wear a size 9 or 11 in jeans, and I can't get the biggest jean size they carry now(something like 30 or 32-they have an odd sizing system) all the way up. Their "large" tops (usually the biggest size they carry, I've seen a few x-large, but not much) are really tight on me. The biggest bras they carry claim to be 36C, but look more like a 32B. F21 is not a store for normal sized girls. I'm kind of glad that they're trying to reach out, but to label girls size 9+ as plus-sized is ridiculous. In fact, to isolate anybody as plus-sized is ridiculous. Is there something wrong with carrying a wide range of sizes in one store?
Yeah their bra sizes are ridiculous. If you don't need a 32 band size you're out of luck. I can wear their mediums in clothes but since I've got a big rib cage and small breasts I might as well forget about looking for bras there. 36As do not exist in Forever21 land.
Seriously? Before I went up to a D-cup and had to stop buying F21 bras, I used to have trouble finding bras in 32 C. All the C cups are 36s.
Considering both our experiences, I really think they just stock bras in the sizes that are most common, which is annoying but makes a certain amount of sense.
I'm a 32 D now. I found a bra in my size ONCE, and it was sixty dollars at Nordstrom's. The lesson here is that if your cup size and band size aren't somewhat proportionate, it will make your life difficult.
Yeah nothing about my sizing is average. I'm 6' tall and pretty skinny for my height(135-140lbs), which is why I've got such a massive rib cage and bitty boobies. Basically the only thing average about me is my shoe size..
I have such a love/hate relationship with Forever 21. Having had an eating disorder throughout my adolescence and still having an uber unhealthy relationship with food, I can literally find myself broken down into tears on a dressing room floor upon having to go up one size in clothes (yes, I've had treatment). While I can fit into the clothing at Forever 21, the fact that I have to wear the largest size they carry, when at most stores I am in the middle range, is very difficult mentally for me. I can sympathize with how damaging this is going to be to plus size women who think they have finally found an affordable, mainstream option only to go through the same thing I experience in the store.
Sorry, needed to get that off my chest.
Thank you for sharing that, RevolutionarilySpeaking. I, too, had a difficult time with weight and being labeled as a double-digit size rather than a person by stores. I'm happy to hear you're dealing with your body issues, as we all must do every day.
With that in mind, I think this is a positive step specifically for teenagers who can't fit into the "normal" sized clothing (which as has been pointed out, there's no such thing as normal).
However, I think only teenagers should put up with the sub-par quality clothes. Not to go all Stacy-and-Clinton here, but buying a few good pieces (which can be tailored to fit you) and slowly building a wardrobe is more valuable than spending money on a mass-produced quick fix made for a mannequin.
The ethical/economic issues at stake behind clothing manufacture and purchase are why I make so many of my own clothes. I'm my own sweatshop, but I'm pretty fair about breaktimes. No pay, but at least I get to wear what I make. Seriously--learning how to make your own clothes is such a rush, and you generally end up with exactly what you wanted (eventually). I still buy jeans because I haven't learned how to do pants yet, but their day is coming too.
This is a really interesting thread of comments, and I am as outraged as the rest of you when it comes to the "ghettoization" of "plus sizes" which I hesitate to even say since the "average" American woman is a 14-16. (More annoyance with Macy's: they do NOT carry maternity clothes. At all.)
And RevolutionarilySpeaking, I'm with you, I too have found myself crumpled in a ball on the floor of a fitting room, usually after trying on bras that NEVER fit right and if they do are always plain and gross. Right now though, trying to find plus-size maternity clothes...this has become my part-time job. I have dedicated the equivalent of 5 days time searching for a few basic pieces to get me through the next several months that were not 1)floral 2)reference my "bump" 3)over $60 for one item. Very tired of searching.
First off, Lucybell and Qantaqa, thank you so fricken much for the support. I was just telling my mom today, that out of all the friends I have, I don't think any of them support me the way you Feministingers do, so thank you from the bottom of my heart.
One other thing - I don't know if this is a national chain or not, but there's a plus size store in my town called The Avenue (www.avenue.com) that has seriously affordable clothes, coupons galore, and 25% off in the month you were born. They carry sizes 14-32 and they offer mostly professionalish, office casual sorts of stuff but definitely not frumpy. I think Jessica Simpson designs a line of jeans for them. They really do cater to a wide range of ages, and their clothing is cut nicely. And, they have prints that are actually flattering to larger women.
And Lucy, a woman once told me of this place that custom makes bras in whatever pattern/color etc that you like. I will do some googling and find a way to put you in touch with them. They're expensive, but they fit and are supposed to last five years or something like that.
Oh oh oh! And everyone, try truejeans.com. Just trust me. Okay I'm done. And again, thanks everyone for the support. You're an amazing group of people.
Actually Lucy, I worked at Macy's for a while. They carry maternity clothing.
I agree with everyone that while it's great that Forever 21 is increasing their sizing range, the sizes they already offer are kinda ridiculous and it probably will still be pretty difficult for a lot of women of size to be able to shop there.
I've made it twenty-something years without my size offered at Forever 21. I guess I can go forever. I don't need them to deign to my size.
I just sent Forever 21 an email about this so called “plus” line. If you visit their website, check out their size chart & compare it to a real plus size store, like the Avenue or Lane Bryant. It’s a joke. Their 2x amounts to a size 16 at best. It’s hardly a “plus” in my book.
It’s incredibly disappointing, because I see a lot of clothes I’d love to order.