Hi,
My question is this: I have found it really hard lately to have sex with my boyfriend (5 year relationship). A little over a year ago he told me that he's a cross-dresser and while he doesn't want a sex change, he does think of himself as significantly female. We lived separately due to my work for about 6 months, and it was fine when we visited each other (about twice a month), probably because there was no sign of it, but we've been living back together again for another six months. He still looks mostly the same as ever (except for shaving legs and chest), and he's keeping a cap on the behavior, but I think I see him differently. For the last four months, I think we've had sex three times. It's weird, he doesn't dress much, but it's in my mind a lot. What's weirder is, it's not penetrative sex that's the problem or cuddles, I just don't like kissing him anymore, or him doing anything downstairs. I kindof just want him to get on with it. I've also been pretty down, probably due to stressing about his "hobby".
Blah, this isn't much of a question. I guess I'm wondering if the zero sex drive on my part is because of his CD, or because I'm depressed. It's not like I'm lusting after anyone else, I'm just not interested in sex and particularly not in kissing.
Is there a way to get around this? I tried to make myself do it a lot because I read somewhere about fake it til you make it, but I just felt sad.
Sorry, this isn't much of a question -
Q
Hi Q -
I've been staring at your question for a few days now and what keeps hitting me over and over is how difficult a situation it is. First, I want to clean up a couple of misconceptions. Most cross dressers are heterosexual men. While for some people, this is a step for transitioning genders (male to female in this case), the majority of cross dressers are not interested in transitioning. Rather, they are turned on or comforted by wearing women's clothing. I think you get this at least intellectually.
You are writing in to a feminist sex column, so I am going to make the assumption that you want to be accepting of his CD.
Here is the heart of it - things have changed. You acted and built on certain assumptions for the past four years and now, after four years of intimacy and relationship, you are discovering a new aspect of him. Are you pissed that it took him four years to tell you? It's ok to be. You can understand how it took him time to be accepting of himself and to work up the courage to tell you, yet you can still be pissed. You give him deserved credit for "keeping a cap on his behavior" while you are trying to work through this, but at the same time his shaved arms and chest are actually a pretty constant and consistent reminder.
Gender matters in relationships. I don't mean gender as in sex. I mean gender as the percentage we want our partners to be masculine and feminine. You found someone whose percentage worked for you - both sexually and in a relationship - now that percentage has changed. What does this mean for your own percentage?
I think fake til you make it works in certain situations, almost all of which are nonsexual. You need to stop faking and start being honest with yourself about how you feel. Do you have friends you can talk to about this? An online support group for women dealing with the same issue? You need a place to vent without worrying about hurting anyone's feelings; you need to talk this out for yourself before you can work it out with him. You are having sex, but I don't think you are having intimacy. You are trying and it is commendable. I just want you to put yourself first right now.
You may have depression, you may just be sad. I think finding a therapist for at least a couple visits would help. Check out the American Associations for Sex Educators, Counselors and Therapists for a therapist who is less likely to be judgmental of the CD and more able to focus on the actual issues.
At the end of the day, this relationship may work and it may not. We want to be GGG (Good, Giving and Game - to borrow from Mr. Savage), but there are some things we just can't be ok with. And this may be yours. But you need to give yourself time and space to really flush out what you are feeling. And then you need to talk to him about it. What compromises can be reached? Maybe he can have other partners who he dresses up for? Maybe you can have other partners who are not into CCD? Maybe he does it ever third Thursday? While being caring for him, you also need to be caring for you.
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I'm so glad Feministing added this segment! This is some of the most wonderful, sensitive, comprehensive advice I've seen for something of this nature. Three cheers for Professor Foxy!
Hi!, You've opened a discussion, whether by choice, or chance, that seems to be centered on crossdressing.
I am "his" second self, and I have already read many of the common perceptions of a cross dresser here. All, basically true, but not applicable to all across the board. "turned on or comforted by wearing women's clothing", Professor, is more correctly descriptive of transvestic fetishism.It exists, but is not truly an across the board case. We exist in all "forms", and express in different manners.
I am seven years "out", I am a past president of a Tri-Ess chapter, I am 16 years divorced, because of who I am.
Who am I? I am genetically male, physically male, and I have a strong feminine gender identity.....strong enough that I need to be perceived to be a woman, at least part of the time.
I lived 58 years "in the silent treatment" (yes, she was never seen, heard, touched, loved) until the pain of it,..........I put the gun down,nine years after the divorce, and found the courage to accept who I was, and live "our lives".
I chose to respond here so that any one who has questions can ask, and I will answer. I still have "demons", but I no longer fear confronting, and owning them. I cannot answer for all, but I can answer as the question applies to me. I intend to be as honest as I can possibly be, to be otherwise would make this offer pointless.
If I can, by honest answer, help you understand who a crossdresser is, then, what discomfort it may cause me will be worth the effort.
Very nice.
It is a tough situation! I am glad that Professor Foxy encouraged her to talk to a therapist. It is a good idea to address the depression as its own issue and not just as something related to the loss of libido.
This is a tangent, but :
I love Dan Savage but I don't think I can get behind the GGG ideal. I respect that he's a big fan of getting people to explore their boundaries, but I am of the opinion that people can have their boundaries if they want them.
It's really the last part, the "Game" part, that bothers me. I like the general open-minded sex-positive sentiment behind GGG but it seems like Dan gets a lot of letters from people who really just don't want to do something, but those people are worried about not being Game enough and are putting pressure on themselves to change. Whatever. If you're curious or ambivalent, by all means test it out, but don't feel guilty for refusing something if it's not to your tastes.
Maybe I am just a curmudgeon. I hate to spoil the GGG party, but I don't see what's wrong with just being GG.
I'd like to look at it more that people who want to be GGG should find each other, and people who don't should be happy with each other too. If you want your partner to be up for trying things they might not be into, you should do the same. I'm never clear on what Dan really thinks about this-- sometimes he says everyone should be GGG and try stuff, and then sometimes there's a column like the one recently where the girl was upset that her boyfriend wouldn't kiss her after she gave him a blowjob, and Dan essentially told her not to expect him to. On the other hand, there's the issue that you can only give advice to the person writing in, not the person they're complaining about. If the guy had written in, I bet Dan would have told him to be GGG and at least try it.
I was just thinking that this particular column is probably the same advice Dan would have given, but written in a much nicer way.
I think that GGG still works, and Dan often tells people that they don't have to be game. They can put their foot down on something. Like a somewhat recent letter where she had been raped and her boyfriend was trying to get her to do rape play scenarios. Dan was like, oh heck no you don't have to put up with him pressuring you to do that.
The flip side of good giving and game is that your partner can't push it too far. They have to be good and giving to you. If they are good and giving to you, then if you know you really aren't game, they will be able to deal.
God, that letter was so over the top upsetting. The boyfriend sounded seriously disturbed. That column got hundreds of letters telling her to leave her boyfriend before he actually raped her, and lots of advice about having a big strong friend there when she moved out to an undisclosed location and changed her phone number.
Anyway, you have to take Dan Savage with a grain of salt. Sometimes he gives really good advice; sometimes he mentions that he's drunk and pissed off about prop 8 and looking for some stupid letter to take it out on.
Yes, it really was. It's actually the one I was thinking about when I decided that I don't like the concept of GGG, but I do see where you guys are coming from about Dan Savage.
I guess I think that GGG is good for some people, and GG is good for other people, and it's not like the people who are GGG are somehow better or that the people who are GG should try to change themselves.
I was also thinking about the advice that Susie Q (her daughter, actually) gave over at Feministing earlier. It was for a woman who was trying to get her inexperienced boyfriend to do it doggy style with her, but he had refused because he felt like it was degrading to women and it just didn't turn him on. Her advice was to try and get him comfortable back there by asking for back massages and things, and then... if he didn't warm up to the idea... just sort of sit back and push him in. Like he'd get used to it eventually if you make him do it in that position.
My response to that was like "whaaat? If he doesn't want to do it, he doesn't want to do it. Can't people just not want to do things?!"
I think I am just reacting to a trend that I have seen in sex advice columns that assumes that more sexual variety is always better, and if everybody tried every kink imaginable their lives would be 100 times better, and that if somebody is just vanilla you're doing them a favor if you can get them to open up and enrich their lives, even if that involves a little manipulation.
I know that I am exaggerating and that Dan S. isn't that bad, but that is just something that I have grown a little resentful about after having spent a lot of time reading sex advice columns. I am a sex junkie personally and love sex advice columns, but if somebody is more inhibited than I am I don't really think that I can assume that they would be happier if they weren't. How should I know? How should anybody know? Sex means different things to different people.
Anyways, that has nothing to do with the OP at all, it's just something that I have been thinking about lately.
You know, the funny thing is I just wrote this whole post (that I erased) basically defending the idea of GGG as making and effort to make sure that both partners are satisfied with their sex life.
But actually, I doubt Dan would think that I qualify as GGG. There are lots of things I don't want to try that Dan says should be standard. But luckily, my boyfriend and I are pretty much on the same page, where for us, being "game" would mean being willing to try a new position, while for some other couple, being "game" might mean being willing to try a new sex club. It all depends what your expectations are in the first place.
So I guess what I'm saying is the idea of GGG is good as long as you can interpret it to fit the context of your relationship. If it means that everyone has to be open to the same things, for example, anal sex, well then no I don't agree with it at all.
(And regarding that particular example, well, Dan has GGG but he also has DTMFA, which means dump the m.f. already! That's generally what he says to people whose partners have been treating them badly. He definitely told the woman with the rape fantasizing boyfriend to get out of that relationship, so I don't think that one can be used as an example against his GGG policy. He also usually says everyone should be willing to perform oral sex, but there was another column where someone wrote in saying she had been orally raped and now felt guilty about not wanting to perform oral sex, and he told her that she definitely never had to do it. He's never advocating people getting traumatized or hurt. If one partner is into something like S&M and the other partner does not enjoy pain, he'd probably tell them to break up and find people with similar interests.)
PS. Who is Susie Q? Did you really mean feministing, because I've never noticed a sex advice column here before this...
Oops! No, I didn't mean feministing. That must have been confusing! Heh. I meant Jezebel. It is here: And yeah, her name is not Susie Q, it is Susie Bright. The segment is called Susie Q's though.
I am going to reply some more but not here, because I am afraid it would be formatted terribly this many steps down the thread.
And as long as we're speculating about Dan Savage, he's also pretty big on people being honest and upfront with their partners, not changing the terms 5 years in. I understand why it would happen in this case, but it is a problem.
Maybe he wasn't a cross-dresser 5 years ago. Maybe he didn't understand what he was 5 years ago. Maybe he knew it 5 years ago, but didn't accept it until recently. People change, whether they want to or not.
That's why I said I could understand why it happened. But the fact is, it IS a problem when your significant other has been hiding something from you for years, however understandable it is. Or, if he wasn't hiding it, and its just a change that happened recently, its still a big enough change that it can be a problem. He's no longer exactly the person she fell for at the beginning, and they'll have to see whether it still works.
@ MissKittyFantastico
You're right, I agree with your interpretation of GGG. It is perfect if you can interpret it to fit the context of your relationship. The "Game" part is helpful, as long as you don't go too far with it. Sometimes people have specific things that they need in order to be sexually satisfied, and a Game person is willing to at least try something new if it means a lot to his/her/hir partner. However, I just think that it needs to be applied on a case by case basis, depending on why somebody might have reservations about the action in question. So yeah, I think GGG is great as long as it is applied sensitively within a relationship. You're also right that Dan himself doesn't treat GGG as if it is the be-all-end all. He often does tell people that they don't have to do things that are triggering or traumatic or highly unpleasant.
And yeah, I agree with Agnes Scottie that GGG is fine if both people are GGG, because a Good and Giving partner will never ever ask you to do anything that you have a strong aversion to. Basically I agree with everything everybody here said.
I just worry about what happens when GGG gets applied badly. When people take it to mean they are a bad sex partner if they don't do things they hate doing, or when one person is trying to be GGG but the other person is an asshole.
That is why I wouldn't call GGG the ideal. I think there needs to be something that indicates self-awareness and boundaries. The ideal sex partner is aware of their own needs and is able to communicate when to stop and when something is inappropriate, and draws lines when they need to be drawn. There is no element of self-protection in GGG, and I think that's a bad thing. I honestly think that my ideal sex partner would be a little selfish because that would mean they are looking out for themselves and their own needs as well as mine, and that is a good thing. Selfishness is a good thing.
I'm not dissing GGG, I'm just saying that as a goal or ideal for human sexual behavior, it is flawed. It's useful, but not perfect, and we need to be careful about how we apply it.
Some readers might not know about the organization Tri Ess, so I thought I would drop a link here. The group may or may not have a chapter near the emailer or near others dealing with similar issues but it appears as though they offer some online support as well:
http://www.tri-ess.org/
The organization is basically a support network for heterosexual men who cross-dress and their partners. I'm not sure whether they include women who cross-dress as well but that might be something to look into for others. Members of the organization sometimes visit college campuses, which is how I learned about them. I will say it is a group dealing with very specific issues and aimed toward a specific group of people. There was some controversy over some statements that were made when the group visited my own graduate class. Part of what those in the group want to emphasize is that cross-dressing is not synonymous with sexuality and should not inherently call one's heterosexuality into question. By the Tri Ess members emphasizing that they are "not gay" some in the class were offended by the seeming need to perhaps overstate their not-gayness and distance themselves from queer people. However, given that cross-dressing is generally associated with homosexuality, I can see that this is probably confusing both for those who cross-dress and have heterosexual partners, so I completely respect the need for safe spaces in which to address these issues and hope that others may find the information and community at the link to be helpful and supportive.
That raises an interesting point. I've never heard of a woman "cross dressing." Women already have the freedom to wear the same types of clothing as men, and if they go farther than usual with that they're called tomboys or butch, but I've never heard of it like cross-dressing men, which seems mostly to be viewed as a sexual thing.
I agree. I think this is because it's considered OK for someone with a lower social status/oppressed/marginalized group to dress like someone with more societal power - in this case women dressing like men (or at least wearing some fashions that were traditionally considered masculine) because it's viewed as aspirational or a way of gaining social power or status.
On the other hand, there's a lot of, "Why would a man dress like a woman?" stuff in our society because it's literally considered laughable and ridiculous for someone with more social power to emulate someone with less social power. It's based in deeply entrenched sexist ideas about women being 'less than' men.
Which is not to say that the letter writer is sexist. It's deeply transgressive for a man to cross-dress in our society, and hence it's really difficult to negotiate a relationship that includes it. There is literally no accepted way of dealing with it. It's so taboo that virtually no one talks about it, ever.
Add in the totally valid idea that no one has to be in a relationship with someone whose gender expression doesn't turn them on, and you've got a very complicated situation.
Well, I imagine there may have been female-to-male cross dressers back in the day before it was ok for women to wear pants. As I understand it, a big part of the feminist movement was allowing women to wear men's clothing. Because of that, it has completely different implications than the other way around. And its probably true that the reason they wanted to wear men's clothing and not the other way around was that men were the powerful group (also men's clothing is often more practical).
But I wouldn't say that its always considered ok for the lower classes to dress like the upper classes-- many societies with strict class/caste systems would have frowned on that.
You nailed it regarding the status difference, as far as why society doesn't see female crossdressers (who BTW, do exist albeit in pretty rare numbers) -- in part because it's tough for women to perceive wearing men's style clothing, or even men's clothes as "crossdressing" even when it's done for the same sort of symbolic reasons as male crossdresser do. (I.e. a woman is wearing men's clothing precisely because they're men's clothes.)
Trans man Raven Caldera had a good essay on what he considered to be unacknowledged crossdressing -- and yes crossdressing to get off sexually -- within the lesbian communities. Likewise S. Bear Bergman's "Butch is a Noun" has rhapsodies to wearing ties that sound very much like the rhapsodies about wearing skirts that one can hear on male crossdressing forums.
FWIW, historical accounts of women presenting themselves as men across the centuries are pretty common, and usually it was tacitly accepted because it was assumed these women were doing so for the "understandable" reasons of gaining more freedom and economic opportunity. (Whether it was simply that, or a myriad of other reasons, including whether these are people who today would see themselves as trans men is impossible to say, since we'd be superimposing our own world view on ones that were very different from our own.) In contrast, accounts of men presenting themselves as women are pretty rare up until the 20th century and (still) usually involve either rich, powerful men like the who could withstand the loss of status, or those who are very marginalized and had little privilege to lose anyway.
Grayson Perry and Eddie Izzard are two of a handful (like seriously I can count them on one hand) of publicly out crossdressers -- and both are 1) British and 2) artists, both of which give them more "license." But we come from all walks of life. Just few of us have the courage to be fully out. Even myself. I'm somewhat out -- people at work know I do drag, but not that it's not just for the stage -- but I'm still careful to avoid leaving a google-able trail between my femme and homme selves due to worries about what it might mean for future job hunting.
BTW, sorry for the prolific comments, I just keep getting inspired by the ongoing discussion...
You don't have to apologize for your comments! They are very interesting, well-thought-out, and well-written :) And the links you posted are fascinating and things I would never have come across otherwise. So thank you!
No, they don't. Women who appear to masculine are harassed. Feministing has covered harassment and discrimination against gender non-conforming women many times.
um, "too masculine," not "to masculine."
Can you clarify what kind of cases you're talking about?
What I meant is (in American culture), its really taboo for a man to wear a dress or a skirt. But a woman can wear pants and a tshirt or collared shirt with no issue. True women's clothes are usually more fitted, but I can easily wear loose jeans and a loose shirt and I might not look like the height of fashion but no one would really consider it that big a deal. It doesn't approach the level of reaction you'd get if a man wore a dress.
The case of Brandon Teena might be a good example of of discrimination and violence against a woman dressing in men's clothing. (Boys Don't Cry)
There have been many cases of violence toward women that dress in a masculine fashion, including beatings, rape and murder even if the woman's sexual orientation was unknown.
I've personally been harassed for dressing too "manly" for a woman. I am bisexual, but I have been primarily with male partners. I've been called a "dyke" before and given negative attention for being in masculine attire. It does happen, sadly.
I wish people could be more accepting of different gender expressions.
But with Brandon, it was his living as and telling people he was a man. Not because he was a woman wearing men's clothing. Still a valid point, I just think that's an important distinction to make between the clothing being the tipping point or his transgender identity.
I also dress in men's clothing and am often accused of being a dyke in public. I usually reply with something along the lines of "yes, and...?" and people leave it at that. Any violence or serious harassment has been for homosexuality as opposed to dress.
Yeah, women can wear men's clothes on the street, casually, and not face the kind of harassment that a mtf crossdresser/transvestite would, but try showing up to a job interview in a man's suit and tie, and the repercussions are gonna be equally extreme - i.e. no job.
Thanks for mentioning Tri-Ess. I'd just caution that some chapters can frankly reek of sexism and male privilege (ironic, no?), so they're not necessary a supportive environment for SOs. Tri-Ess' history is one that has had a fairly insecure defensiveness to it (for reasons I won't bore you with); the best analog I can make is that they can be a bit like "straight-acting" gay men, who are acutely aware of how being "different" threatens their male privilege and consequently seek to emphasize how normal they are besides this one little thing that they do.
I do find Tri-Ess, "we're hetero, hetero I tell you" stance a bit grating. But I'd ask people to have a little sympathy. It's hard enough taking on the burden of being part of a stigmatized minority -- and it can be frustrating to be saddled with another perceived stigma (i.e. being gay) for something that you're not. FWIW, it also works the other way, with some gay man (and it's usually gay man) being just as defensive about any whiff of femminess and some can be extremely nasty in distancing themselves from both trans people and gender variant gays and lesbians. I find both kinds of defensiveness problematic, but I understand the insecurity that drives them.
This is a bit of a sideways thread digression, but I'm curious: whenever I read about partners trying to cope with revelations about gender identity in their long-term relationships, it seems to so often be women who are trying to come to terms with their male partners' desire to explore their feminine side. There *must* be guys out there who are trying to figure out how to respond to female partners who are exploring masculinity, yet it strikes me that culturally that is totally invisible. Thoughts from others on why that might be?
There are. Sadly, from what I've heard, men in relationships with women who are realizing they may be trans men tend to just leave. (Probably due to homophobia, as well as greater economic ability to break-up divorce, among other reasons.)
That said, the people I've heard from were transitioning/transitioned trans men, so I'm not sure if the break-up rate was higher than for transitioning/transitioned trans women who were in relationships with women. (Most relationships don't survive transition, which is no fault of SOs who decide that they just aren't attracted to someone of the trans people's desired gender.)
However, from what I've heard, men (both hetero men in relationships with budding trans men and gay men in relationships with budding trans women) are generally far less willing to try to see if the relationship can be made to work.
And I'd point out, I don't hear from women who are the equivalent of male crossdressers -- albeit because female crossdressing isn't really recognized as such, even by those doing. So while I'm sure it's out there, it's probably got an entirely different dynamic, i.e. it's probably seen more as the woman just being butch, or "not feminine."
I know a girl who first identified as bi, then as lesbian, and now her website says her gender identity is "questioning." She cut her hair short and wears mens clothing. But I've never heard her or anyone else refer to her as a cross-dresser. I think they'd just call her a butch lesbian. (She still uses female pronouns. I haven't seen her in awhile, but so her website says.)
I just want to say something here. Please follow your feelings and don't let the idea that you need to be enlightened or tolerant or "smart" enough to know that most crossdressers are heterosexual. You know they are. That's not the question.
This happened to me. I was madly in love for the first time in my life at the age of 30. Throughout my 20's i dated a lot and had the best 20's, so no complaints. But I didn't really fall in love until I met this man at 30. By the time he told me about this, I was already deeply, deeply in. I bought some books about cross dressing. I will tell you this now; the books will tell you that often crossdressers become more and more comfortable with their feminine persona as they age, and may very well get to the point where they are dressed as a woman more than they are dressed as a man.
Believe it. Believe it.
Chances are good that you will reach the point, if you stay with him and marry, as he gets older, where you are basically living with a woman. This is not just about dressing up as a woman, this is having a female persona, including mannerisms, a fem name, and even a voice.
I know that because of where I am I will get beat up for this, but I couldn't care less. I have been where you are.
Get Out Now.
See, I was in a relationship with a guy who was a cross-dresser and have known a few others, and I don't see anything wrong with it. But I'm not straight and my cross-dressing boyfriend told me the first day I met him.
While I do believe that Q might just need to break up with him if it's actually the gender expression that is bothering her like you seem to be suggesting, I also wouldn't be surprised if it was a very strong sense of betrayal that is turning her off so much; I know I would be pretty pissed if my SO suddenly sprung something on me after 5 years that he had known all that time.
There's a wise saying that there's no one way to be trans. Obviously things progressed a certain way in your own life, but that's no guarantee that things will go the same route for Q and her boyfriend.
That said, yes, as they age most CDs do become more comfortable with the side of themselves that society deems "feminine," and for many this does mean having a feminine persona, including mannerisms, and a fem name. For some this also means reaching a point (like I did) where they want to get out of the house and interact with people, which usually means trying to develop a fem voice. ("Passing," i.e. being seen as/treated as a woman and not a "guy in dress," is usually pretty important to people who are out in public.)
However, none of that inherently means they'll end up presenting as a woman more than they present as a man. I've met hundreds, if not thousands, of CDs in person and online and very few do so. (Which I realize isn't a lot of consolation, given you ended up with someone who did.) In fact the vast majority of so deeply, deeply closeted -- akin to being gay before Stonewall -- that they never even come out to their SOs. (Which is a whole other issue.) They're the vast "dark matter" of the trans universe. I'm not discounting that it's not a possibility, just saying it's not inevitable. There many (like myself) who just don't feel the urge to do, and there are others who might do so, but feel that preserving the relationship is more important. Yes there are common trajectories, but everyone, and every relationship, is different.
"That said, yes, as they age most CDs do become more comfortable with the side of themselves that society deems "feminine," and for many this does mean having a feminine persona, including mannerisms, and a fem name.
However, none of that inherently means they'll end up presenting as a woman more than they present as a man. I've met hundreds, if not thousands, of CDs in person and online and very few do so."
Sorry, I don't see how these two statements are not contraditory.
Also, it doesn't matter how many you've met, I'm talking about what they do at home.
I'm not Catons's ex, lol, but I was in a similar situation from the other side. I originally came out to my partner as a cross-dresser. In my case, that phase lasted about 2 months-- then I started down the path of gender transition. For me, I identified as a cross-dresser because I didn't know what else to do, and was afraid of being trans. On the other hand, that's just me... there are tons and tons of cross-dressers who are nothing like me.
Anyhow, I second pretty much everything in Professor Foxy's letter. It's important for everyone to be honest with themselves, and it's important for people in a relationship to be honest with each other. Everyone deserves the right to be happy in a relationship.
A footnote... it's years later, and my partner and I are still together, and are happier than ever (and now have a family). Part of this comes from the fact that I'm now true to myself and am I much more fully formed person. It also wouldn't have worked if my partner wasn't quite happy being in a lesbian relationship (e.g., in our case, she hadn't completely found herself yet, either).
So yeah... it's all super touchy ground. I can imagine couples breaking up due to cross-dressing, and I can imagine couples staying together through gender transition. Cross-dressing also doesn't necessarily have anything to do with transsexuality. Anyhow, best wishes to all involved... it's a crappy situation. I wish all the taboos would go away, along with closets--- everyone would be a lot happier.
Also, as an addendum to Q, I disagree with Caton's suggestion that you read books on crossdressers. I've found that most books about trans people are written by idiots. FWIW, I also don't trust TRI-ESS or other advocacy/interest groups. There are also lots of trans people that are willing to tell you how things work, but IMO this usually involves mercilessly defending one's own trajectory and perspective, and insisting that it's "the way things are."
Ultimately, Q owes it to herself to figure out what she'll tolerate in the relationship (and tolerate is a really depressing word-- Q should be happy, damnit), and her SO owes it to himself and Q to be honest about his cross-dressing. Trans people are so diverse, books aren't useful on this count. Anyhow, I understand how it can take 5 years for the secret to come out, but now that it's out, the time for honesty is here.
"Also, as an addendum to Q, I disagree with Caton's suggestion that you read books on crossdressers. I've found that most books about trans people are written by idiots."
I don't know what books you've read, and I cant' remember the two I read, but I had to order them from the publisher and they were academic books.
If they were written by idiots then they just happened to be idiots who correctly predicted the exact progression of my partner's cross-dressing.
I left him, but I wasted nearly ten years. I just want to be certain that we understand, especially in a place that uses quotes around words like "normal" and gendernormal", that it's OKAY to be heterosexual too. YOu don't have to apologize to no one for not wanting to fuck a woman, or, for being sexually disgusted at a man who takes on a female persona. You don't have to fuck him. You don't have to be tolerant. You can leave. Get out. It's okay to want to fuck a man.
Woo! Dan Savage!
A question that follows from this thread: Is gender (masculine and feminine perceptions) really important in a relationship? If they are so important, are we really into the 'person' or their perceived 'genders'?
Yes, gender, for most people, is a part of their identity, but is it such a big part that we just cannot overcome it when the person (even though all their other characteristics may remain the same) changes some of their gender norms? On the one hand, as (second wave) feminists, we try to break down assumptions and restrictions around gender, but this thread would imply that we have not come very far when that same break-down impacts our relationships. Have we managed to somehow keep our feminist ideologies from getting too personal?
I have not made up my mind about those above questions I pose, so don't take this as an attack on the original question/er. Just something to think about...
I think, like a lot of things, it often depends on socialization. In my experience, those of us who weren't raised in strictly gendered households have a lot easier time admitting that we might be attracted to a multitude of different gender expressions. But maybe it's just the "admitting" part that is easier....
My sense (from both personal experience and from listening to other people talk about this) is that it is one of those things you can't generalize about. For some people it's VERY important, for others not so much. Every person has their non-negotiable, say, whether or not their partner is interested in having kids. Whether they like certain kinds of sexual activity. Whether they're willing to go to the office Christmas party. Whether their religious views are compatible. And if those things aren't matched up, then it's hard to be sexually into the person -- because you don't feel the connection. For some people, it seems like gender expression and identity is super-important. For others not at all. For a lot of us somewhere in the middle.
I think we have to be careful to separate out the idea that we should be accepting of a range of gender expression in people (as a political, feminist belief) from the self-expectation that we then be attracted to every person without regard to gender. We shouldn't ignore our gut-level instincts in the name of political ideals: we can respect people's gender expression and still say "but that's not what turns me on."
I think Prof. Foxy strikes a nice balance here by suggesting ways to think about the situation from a feminist/political perspective, while also ultimately respecting personal desires.
I understand that we must beware of generalizations, but I am still interested in the overall societal norms which then translate into individual behavior (in this case, societal expectations of how a man 'ought to dress' translating into individual behavior of becoming disinterested in the person because they transgress that expectation). So, generalization here is appropriate.
Like you say, for some people it may be ok for their partner to adopt different gender norms, but I don't see any evidence of that on this thread (except for the person who commented above yours). I keep reading that the partners almost always become uncomfortable at best and withdrawn at worst. You gave examples of things, like gender, that could be 'non-negotiable'. Should such things be non-negotiable, is my question? I think even the original poster is at some level negotiating. The question that follows from that is that if many of these things are negotiable (after all, people do change and evolve or devolve in a long-term relationship), were we in love with just some of those things (like gender) or with the whole person? In my opinion, it is unfair to be simply in love with a person wanting to have kids, or a person wearing men's clothing, or a person's breasts, because a whole person cannot be reduced to just those aspects. Which is where the feminism comes in - we fight to not reduce women (and men) to breasts and penises, yet we still are thinking about them one-dimensionally. If you are in a long-term relationship with someone you profess to love, then surely there are multiple aspects of that person that you love? Why prioritize one aspect?
What about age? That changes. Do we fall out of love once someone ages? As feminists, we know the sexist impact age has on the status of women in relationships, so can we not apply the same concepts of feminism on gender-change as well (in the context of relationships)?
Sorry, I ask so many questions, again, I don't mean to be judgmental about different people's priorities, but I rather question whether we should have non-negotiable priorities?
I think you bring an entirely valid perspective to this question. I guess I would say that to me it is not a matter of should. It's true that, often, things we assumed or imagined to be "non-negotiable" to us turn out to actually be negotiable (like, for example, gender). Yes, people change and grow and we confront these changes and have to decide whether, for the sake of the relationship, we can integrate something we may previously have assumed we never could.
My argument would be, though, that it's important to honor the fact that a person may come to a place where they find something they can't or aren't willing to integrate -- even after giving it a fair try. And I don't think they should be made to feel like a failure if that happens.
I tend to think that people either are or aren't attracted to certain traits on a sexual level. Some people certainly have more fluidity than others, some don't. We can all be honestly accepting and encouraging of varying levels of gender identification and roles, that doesn't mean we are going to be attracted to everything.
I'm bisexual and am attracted to a pretty wide spectrum of females (as long as they are not scrawny like me ;) but the men that I find sexually attractive tend to be more stereotypically masculine. Metrosexuals are very pretty, but I've no desire to have sex with them.
If that makes any sense at all?
I think that Q should cut herself some slack, put herself and her needs first for a bit and sort out how she feels about this shift in the relationship. There's nothing wrong with staying or going. Obviously she entered into the relationship attracted to the persona that was presented to her over a long while...she was initially attracted to that. Things change.
The question that follows from that is that if many of these things are negotiable (after all, people do change and evolve or devolve in a long-term relationship), were we in love with just some of those things (like gender) or with the whole person? In my opinion, it is unfair to be simply in love with a person wanting to have kids, or a person wearing men's clothing, or a person's breasts, because a whole person cannot be reduced to just those aspects.
I'm not speaking about just gender here, but if we accept that a "whole person" is the sum of his/her parts (personality-wise and/or physically), if one of those parts changes that we initially accepted to be a very tangible and vital part of that whole person whom we loved, then that person is fundamentally not the same whole person. It doesn't mean they're less of a person, or that the change has rendered them unloveable. It simply means that person is different. Love can either overcome that change and difference, or not, depending on the individual's willingness to deal with the change.
To be fair, sometimes a change in age does make a difference. Many people in long term relationships drift apart as time goes on. However, I think the reason why gender is such a big deal is that it plays a large role in determining the dynamic of your relationship and the interactions that take place. That's not to say that this dynamic is always the same across all hetero couples, all homo couples, etc., but in all cases it is fairly significantly influenced by gender identity. With an existing relationship, the dynamic has been established, and I think more than anything it is the CHANGE in this dynamic that causes friction. (I also think this is applicable to any major change that only one person in a relationship goes through. Both people have to be able to adjust to the changed dynamic to be able to stay together.)
My boyfriend of 8 years told me he was a cross dresser right when we first met. I was totally fine with it. I never thought he would really have the operation, but he did. We are not together as a couple anymore romantically but are still best friends.
I think I ignored how it made me feel, when we broke it off, it was kind of gradual, like "Oh you're going to be a girl now and I am not a lesbian so let's not keep this going" - I tend to shut people out now and not really date anymore.
Also; she likes guys now. I still cannot explain that one.
Well, wait, did he tell you he was into cross dressing, or did he tell you he was planning to have a sex change operation? Those strike me as pretty different things.
Well, he told me about being CD right away. We went for several years with him saying that he felt like a girl and he was unhappy being a man, but never really brought up the operation. After several years he decided to change his name, take hormones and live as a girl. That's when we drifted apart romantically. Eventually he had the op (a little over a year ago) and now is a female.
I didn't think he ever seriously thought about the gender reassignment...but I guess he did!
Everyone asks me how I am taking it, how I took it, etc... I never once thought about myself. He was the one going through all of this hard stuff, not me. I didn't think I deserved any sympathy.
As far as the change in sexual orientation... There's a huge amount of repressing that goes on when you're trans, so it's easy to also repress your sexual orientation if you're desperately trying to fit in.
There are surveys that show (at least among male crossdressers) that there's a much higher percentage than the general population who self-identify as bisexual -- though these surveys failed to ask people whether that meant fantasies (they enjoy imaging "being the woman" but would never actually do), desires (something they'd like to do even if they hadn't actually done it yet) or actual behavior.
I don't think it's actually a case of actual differences in sexuality as much as it is a case of being willing to admit it. In other words, once you've accepted that you're not "part of the norm" when it comes to gender, it's easier to admit to yourself that your sexuality might be different as well.
FWIW, I think the reverse is true among gays and lesbians, where there appears to be a higher percentage of gender variant people (not necessarily trans), i.e. femmy gay men, butchy lesbians, etc.
"I tend to shut people out now and not really date"
You were damaged by this relationship.
Let's all of us tolerant people grasp that.
As someone who's a crossdresser and who also performs as a drag queen (not the same thing, which I can explain later if desired), hopefully I can provide some insight, as well as my sympthies.
First off, I just wanted to say I really feel for you Q -- no matter that the reasons the vast majority of us don't disclose (which are about us, not you), it's still usually hard for most SOs. A number have said it's the hiding that bothers them more than the crossdressing itself -- which is an entirely valid feeling. There's also the feelings about "what does he crossdressing say about me," and the symbolism involving with his shaving, etc. Despite how much he may assure that he's got no interest in transitioning, it may be something in the back of your mind. Unfortunately, it's the sound of the other shoe not dropping, and there's just no way he (nor I) can ever prove to anyone that we won't.
Which is why I agree with Dr. Foxy that seeing a therapist to help you sort out your feelings (as well as figuring out whether you're depressed) is a really good idea. I'd just caution that therapists may not be any more knowledgeable about trans issues than you. Likewise, CDs like myself rarely turn up at the offices of "gender therapists," who generally see people thinking about transitioning, so someone who's this sort of specialist may have a distorted picture of things too. So just be aware you may need to help your therapist ramp up on the issues. Good ones will be willing to do so.
helen boyd's "My Husband Betty" (written by a partner) is a good resource, and helen also runs an online forum (for both partners and trans people), as well as a partners-only email list, which might be helpful if you want a place to talk with other SOs. BTW, just for the record, Betty did eventually transition and I think helen's subconscious recognition that this was Betty's path (even before Betty admitted this to herself) does color MHB. Not necessarily in a bad way, but it's just something to keep in mind.
(For those of you who aren't dating a trans person, you may be interested in both MHB and helen's follow-up book "She's Not the Man I Married" as insightful looks at gender issues -- particularly since SNTTIM also focuses on helen coming to terms with her own masculinity. Both are excellent companions to Julia Serrano's "Whipping Girl")
You may end up being comfortable with his crossdressing, you may not. Either way, the way you feel will be the way you feel, and however you feel is OK.
My dad came out to me as a crossdresser a few years ago and I found it quite hard to cope with. It has never preoccupied me, but honestly it does feel very weird. I am definitely accepting on a theoretical level (and was always so, even when he came out to me and I think I was only 18 or so) but it's hard to accept it completely. At the time I asked him to keep that part of his life separate from me, and that's how it stayed. It's not very hard as we don't spend much time together (he lives abroad) but in some ways I do feel guilty for keeping that door closed.
I watched a documentary by the British artist and crossdresser Grayson Perry, which was really interesting and helped me understand some of the non-sexual motivations for crossdressing. He showed a sort of "weekend" crossdressers' group who like to get dressed up and have lunch together, which is something that my dad has done.
I'm not sure I have any answers for the OP, but I can sympathise and I don't think it's an easy situation. I found it weird enough when it was my dad, I can't begin to imagine how I would have felt had it been my boyfriend. Clearly in an ideal world this would be something which we wouldn't find so strange, but the way we are socialised now means that something like this will always pose a great challenge to a relationship.
"Clearly in an ideal world this would be something which we wouldn't find so strange, but the way we are socialised now means that something like this will always pose a great challenge to a relationship."
I'm sorry, but I think you're wrong here. What you are saying is that being heterosexual is a result of being socialised.
People who say that about homosexuals are rightfully ostracized as bigots. I feel that some people believe that being tolerant, means being disapproving of heterosexuality. That's bullshit!
Q: have you seen him dressed? In my experience, once I was able to see her* I was relieved that this wasnt a different person. She was still the man I knew.
Do most men who cross-dress want to be referred to using female pronouns?
Yes.
As annajcook says below, think "target gender" when using pronouns, as well as how you treat trans people.
Myself (and probably most other crossdressers) realize in our heart of hearts that we won't necessarily be mistaken for being female-bodied, but being addressed/treated consistently with the gender were presenting is much appreciated. (Even if we know that you know.)
FWIW, one of the thing that appeals to me about also performing drag is that "passing" isn't really an issue in that context (although most drag queens would prefer you use female pronouns as well when they're "in face.")
My question was more, are most men who cross-dress aiming to be trans? That seems to contradict the oft-repeated line that most cross-dressers are heterosexual men.
Unfortunately I don't quite get your question as asked.* But I'll see if I can answer what I think you may be asking.
The vast majority of men who crossdress are attacted to women, so you could call them heterosexual and they usually see themselves that way. Although "heterosexual" and "homosexual" can get confusing when it comes to trans people, since the gender points of reference can shift. So it's often clearer to talk in terms of "attracted to women," "attracted to men," etc. My experience has been that male crossdressers who are attracted to men are present in about the same percentage as gay men are to the overall population -- though many of them end up going the drag queen route because it's a society acceptable outlet.
In my experience, most crossdressers usually do seem themselves as fundamentally male -- and unlike transsexuals they generally aren't at odds with their bodies. For example, I'd love to have a female body part of the the time. But crossdressers usually do see themselves as having a "feminine" side to themselves, one that's an integral part of them. (Transitioning transsexuals often feel that their masculine persona was a facade.) "Bigendered," akin to "bisexual" is a good way to think of it -- although in my case it's more "multi-gendered": man, woman and drag queen, which is a gender unto itself. So when we're en femme, as it's often referred to, we do see ourselves as women and desire that others treat us as such.
There's a whole discussion we could have about to what extent crossdressers have a real understanding about what women's lives are really like given how little real-world experience most of us have as living as women. But my point is that we usually see ourselves as having an aspect of ourselves that society deems "womanly" and an overwhelming need to express that -- and not as a feminine man, but as someone society sees as "a woman." So we alternate between genders, fully inhabiting the particular gender we're presenting as at the time. Unlike transsexuals, who generally feel they've got a single gender self-identity -- one that's at odds with their physical body and the gender they were assigned to at birth.
There are also people on the trans spectrum who feel who feel their gender doesn't fit the gender binary, those who they've got no gender whatsoever, etc. Most of these people usually self-identity using other terms, such as "gender queer." FWIW, my experience is that these folks are usually female-bodied, and consequently their ambiguity leans upward in social status (as opposed to male-bodied people, for whom gender ambiguity usually means a loss in status and privilege).
Both crossdressers and transsexuals usually desire to be seen as and treated as their target gender not as trans women or trans men, and often find being treated as the latter to be very hurtful. As opposed to gender queers, etc. who revel in their gender ambiguity.
Sorry to be long-winded yet again, but it's an issue with lot of nuances. Hope that helps.
* "Trans" and "trangender" are umbrella terms intended to cover a variety of people on the transgender spectrum, although lately some transsexuals have adopted "transgender" as a more "genteel" way of saying "transsexual. Don't worry, the terminology can be a bit confusing -- even to us...
Well, what I meant was, people usually say "most crossdressers are heterosexual men." I think it even says that in this post. To me that means they are men who want to stay men, who are attracted to women. If you're saying that they actually want to transition to being women, then that sentence completely loses the meaning that I always thought it was supposed to have, which was "don't worry, just becuase your boyfriend likes to cross dress doesn't mean he isn't still a straight guy."
The rub is that while the vast majority of crossdressers are hetero men who want to remain men, many late-life transitioners (i.e. MTFs who transition in their 30s/40s or later) are typically in denial for years, and consequently see themselves as "just crossdressers" during this time.
There's no study that I'm aware of how many crossdressers end up transitioning, but anecdotally I'd guess it's probably around 10% of people -- at least among those who are brave enough to join online forums and mailing lists (there's probably still people people who are so deeply closeted that even that's too scary do to). Needless to say that's a high enough figure to freak out many SOs, who'd prefer that the walls between CD and TS be high and impregnable. (Which is one reason for years Tri-Ess publicly claimed that "crossdressers don't transition.")
The denial by late-life transitioners can be akin to the sort of denial and repression experienced by gays and lesbians who come out late in life -- I saw one figure that 1 in 8 lesbians comes out after 40 -- and probably has some similar dynamics. I.e. It takes that long for you to realize IT is not going away, combined with more general "taking a look at your life" introspection that goes on at that age.
Regardless of the numbers, it's a common fear among SOs that eventually their crossdresser will decide to transition -- and unfortunately there's just no way for us to prove that that won't happen (until least until we drop dead).
FWIW, during these years it's pretty common for both late-life transitions and "ordinary" and crossdressers to go through "purges" where they throw out all their clothes, wigs, make-up, etc. and vow never to do it again. Unfortunately, it usually ends up being like the Depeche Mode line: "never again is what you swore the time before." Thankfully I never it myself, but I'm one of the rare crossdressers who never felt a lot of guilt and shame about it -- it was something I sure as hell wasn't going to tell anyone about it because I know it was something society thought was weird, but for whatever reasons I was self-accepting of it.
One of the things that can scary for SOs it that it's also pretty common for crossdressers in their late 30s/early 40s to feel an increased need "to dress" around that age and/or venture out of the house. Which was true of me. It literally took decades to work up the courage to go out in public. The first time I was into my backyard at midnight on a moonless night and I was literally shaking with both exhilaration and terror that PEOPLE WOULD KNOW. Part of the reason I think I ended up also doing drag, was it was a way of confronting those fears head on by deliberating making myself the center of attention. Crossdressers usually desire to pass unnoticed in the crowd and being "read" is usually pretty upsetting to most -- we've got our own appearance anxieties, particularly since we know we're further from the "ideal" than someone who's born female. Statistically speaking, I'm much taller, much more broad shouldered and barrel chested than the average woman, and I've got huge hands and feet (size 12Ws). So I felt freakish, and it was only coming to the realization that yes, there are women my size -- maybe not a lot but they are out there -- that I felt less freakish. But I digress yet again...
Anyway my point was that when crossdressers do so an greater interest in "dressing" and going out of the house -- aside from the issues inherent in that -- it can also trigger fears among SOs that they won't want to stop at that and end up transitioning. So, as helen boyd aptly put it, it's the constant sound of the other shoe not dropping.
Can someone explain the differences between the following (and specifically the terminology that should be used):
1. A man who is attracted to women and considers himself a man, but likes to dress up in women's clothing as part of sex.
2. A man who is attracted to women and considers himself a man, but likes to dress up in women's clothing as part of his everyday life.
3. A man who is attracted to women, who dresses in women's clothing and plans to someday have a sex change operation.
4. A man who is attracted to men, who dresses in women's clothing and plans to someday have a sex change operation.
5. A gay man who dresses in women's clothing as part of sex.
6. A gay man who dresses in women's clothing as part of everyday life. (Should this be separate from doing it for performances? I have a gay friend who sings karaoke in drag but otherwise dresses as a man.)
And any others I may be missing (besides, obviously, all the same cases for women. But in this thread we are mostly talking about male crossdressers, and as discussed above its a lot harder to find any female cross dressers.)
Thanks for asking. To be honest, there's disagreements about language within both the trans communities and the larger LGB communities.
(For example, there's been a bit of public debate about non-trans people using the word "tranny," which some trans people find really offensive, akin to "faggot" or the n-word and other trans people want to reclaim, ala "queer," which still a pretty charged term for older gays and lesbians. On that particular point, at best use of "tranny" involves the same sort of nuances about who can use it and when as other reclaimed epithets, like "fag." So the short answer is that if you're not trans, or a SOFFAs who'd be seen as a fellow "insider," don't use it.
The National Lesbian & Gay Journalists Association Stylebook and GLAAD Media Reference Guide do represent the consensus on terminology, even if not everyone would agree on it.
Which is a long way of saying the best thing to do is ask the people in question how they'd like to be identified.
That said, let me try to answer your list, using what I'd consider "consensus" definitions.
1. A man who is attracted to women and considers himself a man, but likes to dress up in women's clothing as part of sex.
Might or might not consider himself a crossdresser. Might consider himself as a guy with a fetish.
2. A man who is attracted to women and considers himself a man, but likes to dress up in women's clothing as part of his everyday life.
Usually would consider himself a crossdresser.
3. A man who is attracted to women, who dresses in women's clothing and plans to someday have a sex change operation.
Usually would consider herself a transsexual, transgender, or trans woman. Or they may just consider themselves "women trapped in a men's body," which is a trite but useful shorthand -- and does reflect the sentiment that they never truly felt like "ordinary men."
These people tend to be "late life" transitionors, i.e. they often take until they're late 30s to early 40s to transition, and may believe themselves to be "just a crossdresser" earlier in life. Former Largo, Fla. city manager Susan Stanton is typical of this sort of person.
(BTW, there is a small -- but extremely -- vocal separatist group who consider themselves as "women with a birth defect" (i.e. they were never men) who hate being considered transgender.)
4. A man who is attracted to men, who dresses in women's clothing and plans to someday have a sex change operation.
See #3. Additionally, they may also see themselves as gay men and/or drag queens depending on context. (My drag mother. who lives full-time as woman, sees herself as all three.)
Typically these people tend to transition early, in their teens or 20s. Probably because it's easier for them to envision themselves as women, since their attraction to men is "congruent" with that. Hate crime victim Gwen Araujo was pretty typical of this sort of person.
5. A gay man who dresses in women's clothing as part of sex.
Can't really say. They might consider themselves a drag queen, or a gay crossdresser (someone who's the equivalent of a hetero male crossdresser who seeks to "pass"), or someone with a fetish. IIRC, there's some porn seemingly aimed at gay men that involves guys wearing make-up and women's clothing, but not wigs, breast forms, etc. Which is different than "she-male" porn, or crossdresser porn where there's at least an attempt to appear female.
6. A gay man who dresses in women's clothing as part of everyday life. (Should this be separate from doing it for performances? I have a gay friend who sings karaoke in drag but otherwise dresses as a man.)
See #3. If they just do it for stage performance, they probably see themselves as drag queens and/or "doing drag." However, the well-guarded secret is that some drag queens don't just dress for performance -- some do so for reasons quite similar to hetero crossdresser (including it being a turn-on in the bedroom). My take is that these are people quite similar to hetero crossdressers, but who end up doing drag because it's an acceptable outlet.
However, given the widespread sissyphobia in the gay communities and the difficulty drag queens having finding men willing to date them, very few of these people will admit it, even to another insider like me. Consequently, I can't say how prevalent is it. That said, I do definitely want to make clear it's not all drag queens, and most probably do it for variety of other reasons that have nothing to do with gender identity.
Likewise, most gay men who "do drag" at Gay Pride parades are probably just having fun gender-bending, akin to most hetero guys who cross-dress for Halloween -- although both are occasions provide cover for hetero and gay crossdressers who'd like to go out in public, but are otherwise terrified of doing so. (Both will take steps not to appear too polished.)
Wow, thank you for the detailed discussion! It was very informative.
While these are general descriptions, what individual people may identify as will often vary. (e.g. not all transsexuals see themselves as transgendered)
1. A straight man with transvestic fetishism. A cross-dresser.
2. A straight man who cross-dresses. A cross-dresser (older terminology was transvestite, but that's used less now).
3. Not a man, but a pre-op transsexual women, who is attracted to women. May or may not identify as lesbian, and may or may not continue to be attracted to women as they transition.
4. Same as (3), just a different sexual orientation. There are also bi trans women, which you left out.
5. Similar to (1), only gay not straight. Less common.
6. Similar to (2); also less common. Drag queens are often separate, as many of them will only cross-dress (ie wear women's clothing) for performance, and not in everyday life or for sexual reasons.
You left out bisexual men and trans women, but that doesn't affect whether they're cross-dressers or their motives for cross-dressing.
Just to clarify, a trans woman is a woman who was born as a man, right? Not the other way around?
Yes. Think "target gender" when using the language. The pronouns are about who the person feels they truly are and wish to be perceived as.
What is the difference between a person who is transgender and transsexual? I thought they were the same thing. (I'm obviously still learning!)
They are the same thing. But the term preferred by the transgendered community and academics is transgendered because ti brings focus to the aspect of importance, that is, 'gender'. 'Sex' usually refers to biological sex which is changed via operation as a consequence of gender.
-anin
It's true that lately some transsexuals have used transgender as a more genteel synonym, and that press accounts have done so as well due to an unfortunately ambiguous entry for "transgender" in the AP Stylebook.
But "transgender" has traditionally been an umbrella term intended to encompass a variety of people whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from the sex they were assigned at birth. Using it as an equivalent for "transsexual" disappears people like me (a crossdresser), people who have precious little visibility to begin with.
Yeah, it's a bit of a sore point with me...
Hi there,
I'm sorry if I was too dismissive, but I have a genuine doubt now. I always felt that transgender was used exclusively with people who felt that they were born with the wrong biological sex organs. That is, people who were born with the body of a male and the identity of a female and vice versa. Hence the use of the terms 'trans' and 'gender'. I thought this term was better than transexual because there are many transgendered people who do not opt for the operation, which is more of the focus with the term 'transexual' (imho at least).
So when you say 'crossdresser', where exactly does gender come into play, is what I am curious about. People who like to dress in clothes of the opposite gender were called transvestites (which is not an acceptable term now, I think?) and the inclination is referred to as transvestitic fetishism. But this seems to include only the paraphernalia and not the mindset. My question is, to what extent does gender identity play a role in crossdressing.
I hope I am able to convey my idea. I seem to be using a lot of words and am worried if I am using the right ones...
-anin
Not to worry insomniac. I don't really expect cisgendered people (i.e. non-trans people) to be up on all the nuances of terminology -- especially since it's evolving and trans people don't necessary agree on them either.
FYI, yes "transvestite" is considered a bit a bit offensive by those of us in North America, largely because many crossdressers feel that it focuses on dressing for fetishistic purposes. In the UK, the meanings of "crossdresser" and "transvestite" usually mean the oppose, i.e. "transvestite" is more "respectable" and elsewhere around the globe the term applied to people like me is usually some local equivalent to "transvestite," e.g. "transvesti." That said, I'm one of those (few) people who'd like to reclaim "transvestite," in part because its connection to the larger trans spectrum.
As far where gender comes into play...
For me (and I'd say I'm typical of many of my peers), I don't have the body dysphoria that's typical of many transsexuals. That's to say, I don't feel "trapped in the wrong body." I'd enjoy having a female body on a temporary basis -- among other things clothes would fit better and I wouldn't require breast forms, hip padding, etc. But I enjoy male body -- though if I personally woke up female-bodied one morning, I'd be comfortable with that.
But I do feel that I've got strong aspects of myself that society considers "feminine" -- and in fact I score as both strongly "masculine" and "feminine" on the BEM Sex Role Inventory test (which was created by a feminist scholar in the 1970s to gauge how well people "fit" traditional gender roles.
Additionally, I feel a strong need to express these aspects -- and it's a lot easier to do so -- as a woman, not as a man, or a feminine man. And yeah, it's often "stereotypical" things, such as being more emotional, being able to adorn myself, etc. While I don't use the term "male-bodied femme" to describe myself en femme because I think that potentially colonializes the experience of femmes, it's not a bad analogy for the way I express myself.
I'll be the first to admit that its entirely possible that I've channelled these aspects into "being a woman" because I didn't feel comfortable doing so as a man. (I don't think most women understand how constrict the emotional range is for men -- certainly it was a shock for Norah Vincent, a butchish lesbian, during her 18-month experiment living as a man. FWIW, I've got some extensive thoughts on the book on my blog.) But OTOH, back when I was in college 20 years ago, I took a deep look at the men's lib movement -- not the same as the "men's rights" movement -- and despite being more self-aware and more unconstrained that most men, expressing that side of myself as a man wasn't enough.
Why? That's the question we all ask ourselves and ultimately I can't answer any better than you can answer why you express your gender the way you do. That's one way were the words "crossdresser" and "transvestite" (which is merely the Latinized version of the former) fail -- they focus on the clothes, not the self-expression.
The flip-side of having a self-identity that's "bi-gendered" is a strong desire to be seen as woman by others when I'm en femme. Again, why? Ultimately, it's hard for me to answer any more than you can probably explain why you want to be perceived the way you want to be perceived. Part of it undoubted is sociological and psychological, but the urge goes so deep -- and there are far too many people who desperately desire not to crossdress, who can't stop doing so despite their best efforts -- that I'm also convinced there's some biological aspect to it, i.e. it's tied to something to how one sees oneself, and for many folks it may be a milder version of the dissonance transsexuals feel between their self-identity and the gender they were assigned at birth. Somewhat akin to sexual orientation, which I think is largely biological but subject to other factors, since both gender and sexuality are spectrums that most societies force fit into binaries.
Part of being seen as my desired gende includes being seen as pretty and desirable, which is where gender expression often interwines with sexuality for a number of crossdressers, including myself. There's a lot of reasons -- to me it's significant that the vast majority of male crossdressers begin doing so around puberty, so that alone is probably a major factor why the two get joined. But also male beauty is something that just wasn't even in the picture for many of us growing up -- consequently, I just don't see myself as attractive in male mode. (Part of this is probably tied to the fact that the vast majority of male crossdressers are attracted to women, so we just don't find men a turn-on. I've learned to appreciate men's bodies, but it's a learned taste -- not the sort of primal zing I get from women's bodies.) So while I'm acutely mindful of how the beauty myth can frak up women, it can also really mess with your head if you would like to be appreciated and feel that no one cares. Plus, needless to say there's more than a bit of validation in having someone else find you attractive as your desired gender.
FWIW,I think trans man Raven Kaldera has some astute thoughts about the "stylized" (OK, stereotypical) portrayals, including sexual ones, of women that can be common among crossdressers who've never left the house. My only quibble with Kaldera is that I think it's not just things that they "don't like" about women, but rather a wide variety of things, including things that they envy about women, things that they're ambivalent about, etc. (FWIW, I've seen similar things among trans men, some of whom act like caricatures of masculinity.) But I totally agree with Kaldera that getting out in public and rubbing up against real people and real circumstances tends to make you a much more "fuller" people in your desired gender. Even if the circumstances are often constraints to "safe spaces" -- which is why I make no claim to fully understand what life is like as woman, comparing my experiences to a close friend who transitioned makes me acutely aware of the different between part-time and full-time living.
That said, one interesting thing is that after finally embracing my crossdressing, I've found I've been broadening my gender expression as a man. In large part because I'm not concerned about "leaking" femininity any more -- since gender is a huge issue for trans people, we usually assume everyone else is paying close attention to it as well, which leads to a bit of paranoia. But also because I've gained the self-confidence to say "this is masculinity on my terms."
Anyway, hope this helps answer your question. Sorry again, for a long-winded answer. It's tough to compress things down into a short reply.
Thank you for that explanation (and I think it helped me understand more because it was "longwinded"). I'm going to read up on this stuff more and see if I can make better sense of it (for myself) than I am struggling with.
-anin
there's a lot of inconsistency with all of this language use. 'transgender' is sometimes seen as an umbrella term for all gender varience. it was initially coined to mean people who live full-time as the gender they identify with (but were not assigned as at birth) but do not take steps to transition medically or alter their bodies.
the definition i find most usefull accounts for the fact that 'sex' and 'gender' are different things. 'transgender' describes someone whose gender (identity, role, social interaction style, etc.) is at odds with the gender they were socialized as, and they take the appropriate social steps to be percieved as a man or a woman by the people around them. while, 'transexual' describes someone whose 'sex' is at odds with the sex they were assigned at birth (male or female) and they take the appropriate medical steps to make their bodies as congruent as possible with the sex their brain tells them they are.
as a transexual man, i don't think anything is particularly 'trans' about my gender. my gender has always been male, and that's not changing. so describing me as 'transgender' doesn't make a lot of sense. however i understand the utility of and need for some kind of umbrella term in a lot of situations. one organization i worked with used TTGI (transgender, transexual, genderqueer, and intersex...which notably and intentionally does exclude crossdressers/transvestites).
Hi Dr. Foxy and commenters
Thanks for the reply. I'm sorry my original query was so incoherent.
I do want to be accepting of his CD. It's something I have no trouble with in friends, but it's a bit confronting in a lover. (and for god's sake, we ended up having sex yesterday, and I burst into tears at the end, while he was still on top of me - I feel guilty when I don't want to, worse when I do, and fucking horrible if it feels even a bit nice...!). So I feel like a complete hypocrite - people can be whoever they want to be - I just never thought it would relate to me.
"Every second thursday" is the compromise I've been aiming for. (Neither he nor I could cope with the concept of multiple partners, though of course it's different for other people). It's frustrating because when we talk about it I get the impression that he wants to do it all the time, but in practice he doesn't do anything for months. I hate how unpredictable it is.
I have seen him dressed, twice. I just don't want to touch him - it's this girl I don't know.
I want him to do what he has to do and then we can see how I cope. I know that he really *does not* want us to break up. So he keeps a lid on things, and then does something furtively, because he fears the negative reaction. I just feel like we've been in limbo for the last year.
Intensification is what I'm afraid of. I worry that maybe 10 or 20 years down the track, I'll end up with a wife, or probably more like a sister. I never realised how much being straight was a part of my identity until it was challenged (hooray for heterosexual privelige). And most of the time he still is the guy I fell for.
We've talked about houses, kids, but now I dread any sort of financial or long-term committment. His habits seem to intensify under stress - what if the stress of a new baby means Junior Q ends up with two "mommies"? (I know, I deal a lot in "what if" at the moment).
We are trying counselling at the moment. I'd seriously started thinking about hurting myself because it seemed like the easiest way out (I mean, what do I tell my parents, our friends? "Sorry, I've broken up with this great guy who you all love, because I can't cope with this one part of his personality"??) so I tried counselling on my own, but all I did was cry (not very productive) so we're trying couples counselling. I'm a bit against going to the one CD's SO support group in town because I think they are all a lot older than me.
I don't like talking to my friends about it (but I'm happy to tell the whole internet! Strange... but anonymity is comforting) because they are his friends too (and are all totally supportive of him).
Anyway, I just wanted to clarify things a bit. Everyone's comments and experiences have been very interesting to read. Sorry about the weird question, Dr. Foxy, I do appreciate your advice.
Many thanks,
Q
FWIW, definitely know that what you're feeling is pretty typical among SOs -- including the "what ifs" and the sense of isolation.
There's a saying in the trans communities that telling your partner about your crossdressing has the unfortunate effect of pulling her into the closet. Which is one reason we don't tell our partners, or hide our activities even when they do know -- we want to protect them. Much as you might not tell your mother something about your personal life that you know might freak her out.
Likewise, my experience has been there are a lot of women who find crossdressing interesting, edgy, etc. -- as long as it's not their boyfriend/husband. Which is understandable given the whole "what does it say about me" issue as well as how it can force SOs to confront gender issues, including their own, in ways that are literally close to home.
BTW, it's pretty typical as well for the urge "to dress" to intensify under stress. FWIW, it's pretty common among CDs who don't crossdress very often to feel like they want to do it all the time because they've got a lot of pent-up desire. But in reality that may not be the case. I was extremely fortunate in that I was living alone, and mostly working from home so I had the opportunity to crossdress pretty much as much as I wanted to -- and over time I realized I'd hit a saturation point, where the urge would go ahead for awhile. I've no idea if that's the case with your boyfriend, but it's a possibility.
Anyway I hope things work out for you two. I know how tough it can be. The best advice I can offer is to try to take things at a pace that's comfortable for both of you. If need be, it's worth reminding him that he's a had a life-time dealing with it, while you've only had a year so naturally it's going to take more time on your end.
Q, Just wanted to say that I don't think your question was weird at all. It takes a lot of courage and strength to tell your story so openly and honestly, and to look for support and ask questions. So I just wanted to thank you for opening your story up to this community, as you opened up conversations that are so important and likely helped others in similar situations, even just by helping to lessen the stigma around talking about issues like these. On top of that, depression can be so isolating, and it's so important to reach out to others and know that you're not alone. Just know that there are likely many in this community who understand that your situation is not easy and who are pulling for you and wishing the best for you. (I'm one of them!)
You're not weird and neither is your question.
It sounds to me as if you feel guilty because you think that in order to be a tolerant person who believes that people have every right to be whatever they want to be sexually that you will be intolerant if you don't want to have sex with them.
That's wrong. Please don't hurt yourself. I have gay friends, I'm very comfortable around gay people. It's okay that I don't want to have sex with them. It's okay that you are heterosexual and are turned off by a man dressed as a woman. It does't mean he doesn't have any right to dress that way. It only means you shouldn't be with him.
Caton, what exactly is your issue? No-one here is saying that it's not okay to be hetero. We get it, you're straight, congratulations and relax.
We have on this thread cross-dressers and people (other than yourself) who have been partnered with cross-dressers sharing their experiences, and yet you seem determined to dismiss anyone's experience that doesn't match with your own. I don't see anyone here (other than yourself) telling Q what to do in her relationship. I also don't see anyone telling her that she absolutely must stay and be happy about her partners' cross-dressing, lest she be deemed a horrible, intolerant person. Maybe her partner's cross-dressing does mean that he's not suited to her. Maybe not. I don't know and neither do you. But it seems to me that directing Q on what her course should be, based solely on your experience, is neither helpful nor particularly compassionate.
What is wrong with me? Are you serious?
The woman is crying during sex and thinking of hurting herself.
THE WOMAN IS CRYING DURING SEX AND THINKING OF HURTING HERSELF.
Mostly what everyone here is doing is using this as a platform to show how much they know about cross dressing and how tolerant they are. There are a couple of throw away lines like "of course,everyone's differnt, this might not be for you."
THE WOMAN IS CRYING DURING SEX AND THINKING OF HURTING HERSELF.
We can now safely conclude there are no maybes about it, this is not for her. If this were a non crossing hetero male we were talking about, this community would be up in arms! A woman forcing herself to have sex with a man during which she cries and has thought about hurting herself! This place would be up in arms.
But it's a cross dresser. So we ignore the huge red flags (crying during sex thinking about hurting herself) and instead, get out the soapboxes.
I'm tolerant too. I'm tolerant of women staying alive, and not being so disgusted with themselves and messed up during bad sexual experiences, that they can't go on to something better, or worse, hurt themselves.
I'm tolerant of healthy, happy, women.
It's just not as simple as you're making it out to be. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with a similar situation, but your experience isn't universal.
She's crying during sex and thinking about hurting herself, and it's not okay. I'm sure things feel awful for her right now, and something is obviously seriously problematic. But those reactions don't mean the relationship is dead, or that Q certainly dooms her mental health and happiness if she stays with her boyfriend. I experienced similar feelings of hopelessness, fear, dread, and lack of sexual attraction when I was in a similar situation (not identical, but comparable in many ways), and they passed. I'm not the only one; I know several people who had sexual issues with their partners when something like this came up, which passed as the couple found a way to integrate things and understand each other better.
Traumatic reactions like this might mean a cross-dressing boyfriend isn't an okay situation for Q, but they also might mean she's reacting understandably strongly to a big change in the person she loves, and that things will get better as she and her boyfriend sort out their feelings and desires and fears together. Caton, you don't have the one true inevitable answer. There are other possibilities.
> I just don't want to touch him - it's this girl I don't know.
That seems like a really important insight.
You started a relationship with a great guy. Now there's this other person, female, in the relationship. You didn't invite her and you don't know her. It's pretty obvious how the situation could be stressful.
Do you think that scheduling some non-sexual, low-key, get-to-know-her time could be a helpful thing?
I'm wondering if you could create a safe space for you two to get (re)aquainted, if that might take some of the pressure and stress out of the situation for you.
The suggestion might be premature, and it might not be appropriate at all. I'm just putting it out there for your consideration.
> I just don't want to touch him - it's this girl I don't know.
That seems like a really important insight.
You started a relationship with a great guy. Now there's this other person, female, in the relationship. You didn't invite her and you don't know her. It's pretty obvious how the situation could be stressful.
Do you think that scheduling some non-sexual, low-key, get-to-know-her time could be a helpful thing?
I'm wondering if you could create a safe space for you two to get (re)aquainted, if that might take some of the pressure and stress out of the situation for you.
The suggestion might be premature, and it might not be appropriate at all. I'm just putting it out there for your consideration.
And I truly hope that both of you find a safe, healthy, happy way to negotiate this--whatever that turns out to be.
My thought after reading these comments is that we should try, as a society, to be more accepting of people who cross dress or are trans or whatever, partly so that they are not so repressed that they end up in relationships for years with people who don't like that. I think at a certain point in history it was more common for older, married people to suddenly come out as gay, which is really hurtful to their families not becuase they are gay but becuase it then seems they've been faking this whole time. I'd rather have someone be comfortable being gay or trans or what have you their whole life, than lie about it for years and end up hurting the people who have fallen for them while they lied.
Wow. Did you just want to yell at someone? That's not what the post said at all. It was a plea for Q not to beat herself up over this. Not an attack on anyone or anything. The only one attacking is you. Take a chill pill
From my own experience as a CD it increased mt sexual needs or desires ! I have been a CD since my mother dressed me in girls clothing Whom I now know
had really wanted a baby girl She was a man hater dominant woman who spent a great proportion of my fathers earnings on her clothing-Dresses lingerie hats jewelry and shoes etc As a boy I had only one change of clothing. She however bout her "little girl" several dresses etc. When I left school I became a true CD buying my first feminine things for my self Now aged 68 I am still a CD My wife found out of course. A few months later she began to understand my addiction or was it a fetish ? That seemed to increase our sexual activities especially when I started wearing a nightdress As far as I know by experience in meeting other CD's at a CD club with my wife. The majority were Heterosexual maybe 75% or more Only a few were gay A few seemed to be bisexual These always approached us Hetro"s for sex without success These also openly revealed they were living with a male partner Now at my age I still dress up go out in public enfemme But because of the medication I take for other medical problems my sexual desires have all but gone However I hate men. All of my friends are women who know what and whom I am I get along with women far better. Especialy those who are Lesbians My wife is now almost relieved that I am not having affairs with other women Of course my story is much more complex.But it eveolved and started in my childhood years.
Life is complex and not easy for either a CD or a TS
Joanna
I just wanted to echo what a couple of other commenters have written on in response to your concerns, Caton: that pretty much every voice on this thread, including the original post by Prof. Foxy, has emphasized the importance of Q's own feelings and experiences, and her right to be in a relationship that is fulfilling for her.
It also seems clear from the original question and Q's later comment that she is recognizing that right, and trying to sort out what her feelings are. With help from therapists, her SO, and supportive communities -- including this one. I agree with Anacas that this is just not a cut and dried situation. Every relationship is unique and while hearing about others' experiences is illuminating and often helpful, we shouldn't be too quick to assume direct correlation.
oops: that should be a reply to Caton @ March 9, 2009 9:11 AM (above).
I mean gender as the percentage we want our partners to be masculine and feminine. You found someone whose percentage worked for you - both sexually and in a relationship - now that percentage has changed. What does this mean for your own percentage?
Does this segment of the column strike anybody else as kind of unfeminist and deliberately uncritical of "masculine" and "feminine?" The graf above seems to be accepting the terms at face value -- as though you can just balance out the percentages, and voila! -- despite the fact that I think many, many Feministing commenters are less invested in conceptions of masculinity and femininity as bullshit social roles. It seems to consider masculinity versus feminity as a given and a natural dichotomy that anybody with a sexual preference has to buy into. No thanks.
All the helpful, practical sex advice aside, the above just really bothered me.