More on this issue from The Advocate:
The Gay City News reports that at least 27 men were arrested for prostitution in eight porn shops in Manhattan in 2008. Since 2004 there have been 52 such arrests in eight difference businesses.According to a statement by the group, the arrest is usually set up so that an attractive younger officer is sent out to approach middle-aged gay men. The officer allegedly entices the man to have sex. If the man agrees, the undercover officer says he wanted to pay the man for sexual favors, and then, before the man can accept or reject the transaction, he is surrounded by police to make an arrest.
So many issues here: entrapment, homophobic targeting of gay men in video stores, criminalizing people for engaging in consensual sex. The most striking point made in the protest video is that there have been countless acts of violence against queer and trans people in NYC, but this is where the NYPD is putting it's resources.
Thanks to Jessica G. for the link
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I think that there's only so much we can trust these stories. Cruising -- looking for sex in public places -- is something which isn't illegal. However, there were many complaints about the patrons then having sex in the video rooms of these adult stores. With the huge amount of training these officers have in sting operations, I'm a bit skeptical that in every single case they'd make THAT big of a gaffe. I get the sense something is missing here.
In a word, no. Cruising in public for sex is not unlawful. Having sex in public is unlawful. But that's not what these guys are being arrested for.
And the allegation isn't that it's a mistake. The allegation is that it's a lie; just like cops all give accounts of hand-to-hand drug sales that sound exactly the same. Just like cops learn to evade the 4th Amendment by saying that a suspect dropped a glassine envelope at his feet. Cops lie, both individually and as part of coordinated strategies. If you don't understand that, you are either in a very comfortable position in the world, or you are a danger to yourself every time you interact with them.
(Also, "vast amount of training"? Are you kidding me with this?)
Yes, vast amounts of training. Like 4 years of criminal justice for a degree followed by academy followed by street experience in addition to being on a special operations unit which then requires more training.
The allegation is that it's a lie, but my conjecture is that the claim it's a lie could be to save face.
I'm going to be blatantly honest here: I've had sex with men I didn't know well. I've also been offered money for sexual favors. I've roundly refused them and told them to find their jollies somewhere else because I'm not a call-boy.
I would say being honest with the police and not treating them with hostility, as you seem to be advocating in your response, would be a best strategy when interacting with someone who could throw your ass in jail for a time on suspicion. I've never had to be anything but cordial and nice with officers because the worst thing I've ever done publicly is get into a car accident. With nothing to hide, I've nothing to lie about.
Perhaps it's you who needs the reality check.
You know, taking your anecdotal experience with cops and assuming that there's no widespread corruption of abuse of power is, frankly not only insulting...but ignorant. Would you say that the cops that beat up that 15 year old girl were "well trained" and "cordial". What about the repeated incidences of sexual assault that seem to occur with regular frequency in the NYPD? Or what about the millions of POC murdered and unjustly arrested all for the "crime" of not being white? Sean Bell, Amadou Diallo, Oscar Grant, just to name a few. Not to mention all the drug war victims killed by violent botched Swat raids. Taser brutality. Cop beatings. and so on.
The truth is, these incidents are not just isolated occurrences committed by "bad cops". These tragedies are the result of a culture of corruption, systematic violence and discrimination (racism/homophobia/etc.) within "law enforcement". I don't care how much "training" an officer has. This behavior, all these murders and rapes, are a result of a sick culture, it's the same cancer that leads to things like the targeting and false arrests of gay men. People need to speak up because it needs to be dealt with; a corrupt and violent police force effects us all. However it's people (like you) saying things like "I have nothing to hide, I did nothing wrong", "cops are properly trained" etc. that really piss me off...as if Oscar Grant did something "wrong" that warranted his execution. "Doing nothing wrong" and "being polite and cordial" does not protect you from being an innocent victim of police hostility. And that's been well documented.
I can't help but think this is connected to raids over the last year or so on professional dominants' dungeons. I wonder if Bloomberg isn't pushing an agenda to remove sex from the public eye.
This happens in a Chuck Palahniuk book called Invisible Monsters. and thats where it belongs, in a book. not in real life targeting real homosexual people.
A single, weak source isn't enough for me to believe this.
I think it all depends on the timing. If they swoop in before giving the target male a chance to accept or refuse then yes, those officers should be fired. If the man agrees to pay for sex, then it's targeting johns and that sort of baiting is done with heterosexual men all the time. You can agree or disagree that prostitution should be legalised, but the police use both men and women to target potential johns.
According to the quote in the article the police aren't offering to sell sex to "potential johns", they're offering to buy it from people they've apparently decided are potential prostitutes.
I find these allegations of targeting gays very watery and suspicious.
there have been countless acts of violence against queer and trans people in NYC, but this is where the NYPD is putting it's resources.
Large police departments have budgets and organizational structures - not necessarily decided on by them - with specific allocations for "vice," violent crime, narcotics, homicide, etc. The fact that their vice unit (in response to complaints?) is going after activity that is illegal does not mean that the whole NYPD is an anti-gay wash. That's not to say that it's perfect or without serious problems, but being unfair and distorting the situation isn't going to help address them.
The Gay City News reports that at least 27 men were arrested for prostitution in eight porn shops in Manhattan in 2008. Since 2004 there have been 52 such arrests in eight difference businesses.
52 arrests in five years in a borough the size of Manhattan is not astronomical. I'd want to see good numbers that this is disproportionately high relative to the number of straight would-be johns similarly arrested before getting up in arms against this. We can disagree with banning sex for pay (although not all of us disagree with that), but it really isn't fair to blame the authorities for enforcing existing laws against soliciting prostitution.
This is an odd story. The Village Voice said in 2001 there were about 500,000 gay people living in NYC [not vouching for their numbers, but that seems about right].
There were 27 arrests in 12 months...and before that, 52 arrests in 4 years? That doesn't seem to be a campaign of harassing gay men, at least not in this manner.
Sting operations in other jurisdictions often go much further. In Philadelphia, there was a scandal (there should have been more of one) that officers were allowed to receive 'stimulation' from prostitutes as 'evidence'.
I don't know the penal code in NY, but I find it very odd that the officer OFFERS payment. In the criminal cases I've seen, the person must request and receive payment from the officer.
The offering of payment irks me too. I wonder if it's a situation of a cop (undercover) asking a guy if he wants to have sex, and the guy says sure. Then the cop asks if the guy wants $100, the guy says sure, then gets arrested.
Anyway, gay guys need to stop cruising. We're such a high risk group when it comes to HIV and other diseases, and cruising is just fucking creepy.
Cruising is something which has always been a part of gayness. Whether you personally agree with the practice is one thing, but cruising in and of itself may not be entirely unhealthy - it's all about how you do it and the ways you manage risk. Public cruising at places like porn stores and book stores are much different than online cruising where you publish things like your HIV status and other information as dictated under law. It's not to say it's without risk, just limits the risk you put yourself in.
Furthermore, "cruising" is just the gay way to be sex positive. The act itself isn't entirely different than when straight people hook up after/at a club, bar or other establishment (really anywhere since, you know, straight people run things around these parts). The only difference is that because it's gay, it's somehow subversive. It's a product of the culture that has yet to be addressed. I think "cruising" will end when gay people can pick up other gay people in the same ways in which straight people pick up other straight people.
The types of behaviors being cracked down upon are those which the typical out man doesn't engage in -- it's shamed closet cases like Larry Craig who engage in that risky behavior. People in the closet are more prone to all sorts of psychological stress and trauma, this is exacerbated by and also relieved by this cruising behavior. The stress and excitement of possibly being caught fuels some of the behavior, as well as the release of the sexual need through same-sex attraction.
Cruising isn't inherently tied to homosexuality. It's tied to being closeted. It's tied to barebacking. It's tied to HIV. It's tied to drug use. I'll even admit it's often tied to prostitution. If you think think that this is the "gay way to be sex positive," then something is wrong.
I can see your dated perspective of what gays can do. In a big liberal city, like NYC where this story takes place, gay people can pick up other gay people in the same manner that straights do. I hit on guys all the time in public places. If they're not interested for whatever reason (them being straight, unavailable, or me simply not attracting them), they say so and that's that.
Face it, gay guys are a high-risk group. I'm willing to bet that gay guys who frequent cruising spots, bathhouses and other seedy places are an even higher-risk group.
As much as I despise cruising, I am strongly against the targeting it's getting from the NYPD. When straights are creepy risk-takers, they don't get this treatment.
You’re quite eloquent; I liked your illustration of the nuances of your argument
I wrote about this at the beginning of the month
http://mzbitca.wordpress.com/2009/02/03/one-more-step-backward/#more-246
and it seems that people from the city council are getting involved.
I just wanted to add, this is what I linked to in my site which shows that there are a lot more documented articles and even a community meeting about this situation. They are saying that it is in response to the fact that prostitution does go on near these stores but it seems teh police just aren't as careful on who they pick up.
http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/fea/20090202/202/2813
I agree this isn't ok, but I wanted to point out that entrapment isn't an issue here. Going undercover is what cops *do*. Pretending to be a gay man offering sex and payment is only entrapment if it can be proven that the cop coerced the defendant into doing something the defendant would never actually have done--which, if the person is in a porn store and readily accepts the offer, can obviously not be proven.
I think our arguments are stronger when we don't exaggerate.
Before we start bashing NYPD and others. Fact: sex in a public place here in ny is against the law, cars and everything for you kids out their lol, which is usually a summons. Fact: Prostitution in ny is against the law. Fact:Though these individuals are inoccent as we know, those video stores have all been investigated for sometime for validity- though many read passed that fact. The gay community should not be targeted for whatever reason. Prostitution does go on here in NY, so that’s probably why resources are put into this, because people end up dead or hurt and then after the fact we ask why why why??. However this instance is proving that these individuals were not guilty of so called prostitution because the individuals had no priors and where they had lived- not making sense. .Hopefully whatever the truth ,will ALWAYS come out- and if these men are innocent then we want the best for them and we hope their rights as well as everyone else’s is protected. A system needs to be in place to combat the real prostitution that is taking place and not intfere with the lives of those who are innocent. .But , as a new Yorker, a real one, born and raised in Brooklyn, and someone who is liberal, I am sick and tired of all the cop bashing. Trash the beau racy of the NYPD, the city of New York, Mikey Bloomberg, ray kelly and all of them. And ask any member of the NYPD- they will trash the same as you and I , I know this for a fact. Oh and it’s 60 college credits , and 6 months of police academy and every so often their tours are changed for recertification classes and training on anything you can imagine…just saying.
There was a protest outside the Mayor's front door. One of our contributors attended and we posted video of it. http://www.bilerico.com/2009/02/coalition_to_stop_the_arrests_protest.php
Two of our contributors have been active in getting the harassment to stop. They've had protests, held community meetings, meetings with the police, all of it. Nothing has helped so far.
It's really disturbing to me the number of people here even partially defending the police's actions. First of all, this isn't about people having "public sex" as some people here have mentioned. The people arrested here were not arrested because they were having "public sex". Second of all "cruising" also known in the straight lexicon as "hooking up" is not illegal. So why are gay men being prosecuted for "cruising" aka having consensual sex (note: NOT paid sex, consensual sex)...and you don't see these same cops going into the "adult" sections of straight video stores arresting hetero men. Sure cops go undercover in order to "catch" johns. But again, this is about CONSENSUAL sex. From what I have heard, the gay men arrested in these cases, never agreed to have paid sex. But before they even had a chance to say "no" to these offers, they were surrounded by cops and getting handcuffed. (I'm a lesbian living in NYC, I follow queer news and events here...and from everything I've read and heard, I don't know how these targeted arrests are even partially defensible)