As many of you already know, I'm getting hitched. Deciding to get married brought up a lot of issues for me - politically and personally. Folks had a bunch of questions in comments, so I thought I would use these as a jumping off point to talk about issues of feminism, marriage, and - the current bane of my existence - weddings.
Hara says, "I hope that if you are considering changing your name it is one you both create for the two of you to change to (like a combo, but shorter) otherwise, I suggest not making your name change to his last name."
I'm keeping my last name. I think hyphenation is nice - and that's probably the route we'll go with kids - but I like my last name. A bunch. I've even considered adding in my mother's last name as well, as a little "fuck you" to the patriarchy, but I think Jessica Michelucci Valenti is too much of a mouthful, even for one with as big a mouth as me.
On the issue of same sex marriage, frye886 says, "It seems to me a more powerful action by many couples would be to refuse to get married and publicly state the reasons why not."
Andrew and I discussed not getting married until everyone could, and we think that's an understandable choice. Instead, we're trying use our impending marriage as a pro-active way to talk about same sex marriage among our friends and family, and being mindful of the inequity in every step our process. (For example, in our engagement announcement we asked anyone considering getting us a gift to instead donate to an organization fighting for same sex marriage rights; we're planning on saying something about it as part of our ceremony; and we've taken the advice of several commenters and will have cards indicating we've made a donation to said orgs instead of favors.)
Several of you also got into it about dresses - whether the traditional white dress actually did signify "purity," etc. I'm kind of ambivalent about it, but I ended up getting a not-quite white dress (don't want to give too much away in case the boy is reading!) that I bought from a place where all the money goes to charity.
So that's where I'm at so far. I'm sure things will continue to come up and that I'll continue to try and find ways to subvert them or add a little dash of feminism.
In the meantime, does anyone have any feminist wedding planning tips they'd like to share?
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My partner and I decided early on that we didn't want to use gendered language in our vows or ceremony--replacing "man" and "woman" with "person" and "husband" and "wife" with "partner" (or "married" in one case). We also asked guests to refrain from giving us gifts and to instead donate the money to Freedom to Marry.
We used sustainable tree-free paper for invitations, and our caterer used local, sustainable foods (because we had friends doing both, they ended up costing less than less eco-friendly alternatives, too!).
Thanks, you think my partner will like purple diamonds like in here? (feministing logo)
I think the name issue is one a lot of couples face, whether there's a dude involved or not. My partner and I (both of the lady-type) both really like our last names, and both would kind of like any potential offspring to bear said names because otherwise we might be the last generation to have them. Which would be sort of a shame. But hyphenation doesn't do much for us, so we're sort of in a quandary.
(Although it's possible we could go for a weird phonetic combination, and end up with Regal. Which would be mildly hilarious.)
But more seriously--as someone in a same-sex relationship, I really do appreciate the efforts of our straight allies, and I think it's awesome that you're using a pretty high-profile blog to get the word out.
Well said! Strong straight-allies help ease my marriage bitterness. Thank you, Jessica and husband to be! Congrats!
Though it might not seem immediately feminist, I would really look into where the flowers that you purchase for your ceremony come from. The conditions that women labour in, in greenhouses in third world countries are atrocious. They often work with hazardous chemicals that have been outlawed in western countries. Some of these chemicals have been known to induce spontaneous miscarriages as well as lead to cancer. The women are also lowly paid and their salary amounts to slave labour. There are also extremely high incidents of rape occurring. This seems to me to be to high of a price for a flower that is going to die in a few days. Please consider buying only locally grown flowers. These companies need to be sent a message that the exploitation of female labour needs to end.
good point! i haven't even thought about how flowers could be environmentally/socially conscious, too.
EVERYTHING counts.
The bouquet toss, the whole garter thing...I can't stand these "traditions" and think that you may as well auction off your single guests.
AMEN!!!
We got married last summer and it was a really difficult decision, ethically. Aside from feeling that everyone should have a right to marry, we also struggled with the notion of ANYONE needing to get married. Why can't I claim anyone, regardless of marital status, to make medical decisions for me, etc, without being challenged? Also, there are many GLBTQ people who don't think our politics are in the right place; that marriage is not the best place to focus our efforts, when the HIV right among young people is climbing, gay teens are at a ridiculous high risk of suicide, homelessness, etc... so framing marriage as a choice that we were making, that even a lot of our close GLBTQ friends didn't want, was interesting. What's annoying in this fight for marriage is that it assumes that we all want to get married... not true.
Of course, by trying to deal with the issue flippantly, trying not to be those people who always talk about their wedding, about getting married, etc, we ran the risk of offending those people, like my dads, who really want nothing else but to get married. So it's an interesting issue no matter what.
As far as planning a wedding, a la feminism, we ordained one of my dads online, and the other one walked me down the aisle... even though, yes, a man was still "giving me away" none of that language "who gives this woman" was there, and really, for me, it just made me feel less awkward when everyone was staring at me! We got married on Pride weekend, unintentionally, and once we realized we added a candle lighting for those who had rioted at Stonewall. We also had a friend of ours read from one of our favorite atheist writers. It was fun planning a wedding subverting all the traditions, and really cornering people with questions like, WHY do we need to do x, y, z?... usually, they didn't know why, and they quit asking.
I guess I sort of think that there's no point to marriage, period. I mean, my boyfriend right now has no rights in terms of seeing me in the hospital, or whatever, but if I wanted to, I could grant him durable power of attorney. If we were to have a child, we could choose whatever name we wanted to for the birth certificate, and if we chose to, we could change our names without being married. It's a lot of work and hassel, but it can be done. You miss out on the mystical tax breaks I've heard about, though.
Since we are in a pro-marriage society, they make it much easier to just get married and have it all done at the same time, and true, having a spouse means you don't have to carry paperwork all over the place, in case you need to be let into the ER with your SO...
At the heart of it, barring same-sex marriage is just stinging, unjust discrimination. There are plenty of hetero couples who settle happily into common-law arrangements, and I think if same-sex marriage was embraced, there'd be plenty of same-sex couples who don't feel the need for marriage either. Since it is a disgusting injustice, though, we have to fight for it, even if marriage isn't in the personal plan.
I really can't stand the idea of someone giving me away. I am my own person and by joining a partnership I do not even give myself away, but choose to engage actively in couplehood.
well said
Instead of my dad giving me away, both my parents walked down the aisle behind me helping to manage my train. I liked the symbolism of my parents literally standing behind me as I made my vows and embarked on this big undertaking.
my cousin walked down the aisle herself and had her husband meet her halfway. I thought that was really nice. They had other things in the ceremony for all four of their parents to do. If I get married, I think I'd like to do that.
We both escorted our parents to their seats as our "processional." Part of the idea we'd gone into the whole thing with was that it was as much a "thank you" to the people who'd supported us as a couple as it was a celebration of our couplehood, and this fit that idea pretty well. =)
Rae & Renee above both have great ideas I'm using in my October wedding of this year. We're also keeping our last names.
I am refusing to have any showers of any kind - I've always felt it rediculous that women friends/family are expected to cough up both shower and wedding gifts.
Most importantly, though, I am walking myself down the aisle. I refuse for my father to hand me over to my husband and although some brides opt for both paretns to escort them, I can't do it. He will walk down alone, I will walk down alone, and we will walk out together.
We've also consciously chosen a minister who performs ceremonies for all faiths and orientations. I needed to know that our officiant be someone who would respect and honor anyone standing before her taking vows.
Hmm, I think I already mentioned this in your previous post, but offbeatbride.com is a great resource for brides who are looking for nontraditional (including feminist) weddings - it often features same-sex couples, for example.
In terms of advice, one idea I've kicked around is having both sets of parents walk my fiance and I down the aisle, as a symbol of us leaving their families and forming a new one (rather than my dad "giving" me away - I ain't a present). Otherwise, I just really encourage you to plan a wedding that suits you, and doesn't conform to all of the hype and "tradition" that you're expected to buy into. As I'm sure you know, a wedding really shouldn't be "the" most important day of your life, because that's both fucking depressing and it suggests that the pinnacle of womanly existence is matrimony. Incorporate traditions that suit the two of you, but if you think it's stupid, don't do it just because you're "supposed to".
Btw, I really like your ideas about incorporating same-sex marriage into your wedding! Very thoughtful, and it makes a strong statement about equality.
I agree. Having the wedding be the highlight of your married life just means it will all be down hill from then on. But that's because the idea has become that the woman's allowed to "have" the wedding, because the rest of the marriage belongs to the husband...
Yes, Offbeatbride.com is awesome, as is the forum connected to it. So many great ideas and interesting discussions about all of these issues. Ariel's book, Offbeat Bride, is also supposed to be very good (it's a ways down on my reading list).
As for me and my SO, we'll both be taking his mother's maiden name, which has etymological meaning for both of us, as well. And I'll be wearing a blood red dress, which will be remade into other clothing after the wedding. My dad won't be giving me away, no bouquet or garter toss, and no church or religious stuff will be involved. (There are lots of other details that I won't get into now.)
As for the marriage equality thing, I think it's great that you're using your wedding to highlight the issue. It's one reason why I want to do the civil part here in Massachusetts, where things are better than in other states, although the federal status of equal marriage is still the largest problem. The main thing for me is that once we have kids, I want them to have the protection that I am fighting for other children to have. I just feel that it's too much of a risk given personal issues that complicate legal things (how's that for vague?). :)
So, congratulations, and remember that no matter what others say, it's the two of you that get to make your celebration and commitment be a reflection of your values and personalities.
Yep. Don't participate and enable in the fetishization; do it in the courthouse, totally casually, in decent but normal clothes, with only the people who really genuinely give a crap about it present. Then you can spend all that money you saved on going somewhere really cool, sexy and romantic with the person that is the whole reason you're doing this in the first place.
:) No, I don't think you're going to go for that, but you DID ask!
yeah I don't believe in marriage, BUT I would definitely have a civil ceremony at the courthouse, and not in a place of worship.
Those aren't the only two choices-- you can have a civil ceremony at a hotel or something, if you still want to have a party.
There are plenty of other places as well. I want to get married at the college I attended & met my partner at.
The issue with same sex marriage is a civil one not a religious one. If you are part of a community of faith (who's beliefs you share) then you should get married there and not in the eyes of the government.
I saw that one person was suggesting the opposite. Why?
For me my faith community shares my beliefs and marriage is a promise you make to someone else to be their partner in front of your community.
If you are getting legally married aren't you buying into the whole idea that the government says who can be your partner?
Both of my parents are ministers and they have no problem with me getting married in the church but not in the eyes of the government. They don't even sign marriage licenses any more because of their beliefs.
That being said, do what makes you and your partner happy and forget about everything else.
If you are part of a community of faith (who's beliefs you share) then you should get married there and not in the eyes of the government.
Says who? And why?
You're right that they are different things, but one does not foreclose the other. We did both (separately) for different reasons. We both felt strongly that we didn't want any church in our state, nor state in our church, so we did the civil paperwork privately and at a different time entirely from the wedding.
Legal marriage, for us, was about securing reciprocal benefits, firmly establishing next of kin and inheritance, establishing rights and responsibilities should we split up in the future, presumed paternity for any children we might have, blah blah blah. It was a relatively cheap (compared to having a lawyer draft up contracts) paperwork we signed to make our life easier.
Religious marriage (or, I assume, cultural marriage for someone who isn't religious) was for us about community recognition of and support for and celebration of this new part of our relationship, and about deliberately forming a family moreso than just a legal entanglement.
You can do neither, you can do one without the other, or you can do both. But I don't believe that having both a reigious and a civil marriage is in any way illogical or hypocritical.
I should have added this to my list I posted before. It was really meaningful to both of us to do it this way.
This is a great idea!
Ritual is an important human way of behaving when we pass from one state to another. I don't think there's anything wrong or unfeminist about wanting some solemnity, pomp and shiny clothes for an important rite of passage. (However, I don't hold with spending thousands and thousands of dollars on the shenanigans like the industry tries to get one to do. Both my weddings were very very cheap and still fun. Thank gods for talented DIY artist and crafter friends.)
Practical suggestions from a married (last August!) feminist (note: these were decisions that I felt we made through a feminist lens...your mileage may vary):
1. We both walked down the aisle, with our parents. This was very important to us.
2. He was point person on half of the wedding arrangements, went to all of our vendor meetings, and we refused to let them just talk to me, which they wanted to do.
3. We tried to make it very clear (via website, minister making announcement, wedding announcement in paper) that we both kept our names. Still, people don't listen.
4. Our vows to each other were the same and did not use husband or wife.
5. Something that struck me...I got really into planning the wedding and having it be "non-traditional" and maybe the guys would wear their own suits and sneakers and blah blah blah...turns out Mr. Quail wanted to wear a tux, dress shoes, tie his own bowtie. Even though I was trying to be non-traditional I was inadvertently leaving his wishes out...not so non-traditional.
6. No bouquet toss or garter toss. No parent-kid dances. I think these things are too gendered for an egalitarian event.
7. We had a religious ceremony but made the language as gender-neutral as possible- referring to God as Father and Mother, or as God rather than Lord whenever possible. We also included prayers for social justice issues we care about, like poverty, gay marriage, and the environment. Our super liberal Lutheran woman minister was totally on board with this.
8. A little thing, but our rings match. And we got them off Etsy for $50 for both! Handmade!
9. We paid for most of the wedding, with only voluntary, unrequested contributions from our families. This meant that no one hosted, which was important to me that it wasn't my daddy paying for his little girl's day.
That's about all I can think of, though the entire process of deciding to get married, planning the ceremony, and planning the reception was all colored with the tinge of patriarchy for both of us, so we had many conversations about what that meant and why we were doing it. In the end, the ceremony was absolutely amazing and fit us perfectly and the reception was a blast - I'd like to think it's because we put so much thought into making sure it reflected our feminist ideals.
aww, that's really awesome you both got matching rings off Etsy, haha. I love it.
Yeah, not that you asked, but it really bothers me when a woman has a diamond-encrusted band to match her huge diamond engagement ring and the guy has a plain band. Aside from the fact that I don't really wear jewelry and would consider such jewelry to be a waste of money (and probably unethically mined), I think it says a lot about hetero marriage in our society that it's such an accomplishment for the woman, to be rewarded with bling, but a tie-down for the man to be barely acknowledged. We wanted our visible commitment to cost about the same amount and be relatively equal (his is wider, per our style preferences.)
So, we both have plain silver rings, probably made from the same batch or whatever of metal, which is kind of awwww. And we both had engagement rings.
Plus, Etsy rules - we got them made exactly how we wanted.
My brother in law got a wedding band with diamonds, too, so as not to be left out.
OK, real quick mini-rant ... my spouse and I did the same thing with the last names when we got married in 2007, including putting in the wedding announcement (that was published in MA specifically for the benefit of my paternal side of the family), "The bride is keeping her last name." Within a month of the wedding, we got something from my aunt addressed to "Mr. and Mrs. Hisfirstname Hislastname." And it continues - Christmas cards, invitations, thank you notes, presents .... how many times do I have to tell them that I KEPT MY LAST NAME?! The rest of my family and my spouse's family are very good about it, except for his step-brother and step-brother's spouse.
Even after being told multiple times that my last name is not my spouse's, why do so many people insist upon ignoring that? At what point is it no longer forgetfulness and when is it outright disrespect and rudeness?
/rant.
Haha, yep, that's what we did too - published the wedding announcement in my in-law's state specifically for the reason that his extended family would be the ones to "not remember".
I'm with you all the way on the ranting. I mean, you knew my name before - shouldn't it be EASIER to remember since it DIDN'T change? And since it's been more than a year in your case, I'd begin to think it's tending more towards disrespect...
But I have no answers, only commiseration :)
My mom kept her last name and the only real anything I've ever noticed about it is that it makes it easy to identify telemarketers/strangers when they call as they'll call her the wrong last name.
But they've been married for 25+ years, maybe there were issues with it at the start, I don't really know.
why not send the letters back. "return to sender- no such person" written on the envelope a few times might get the hint across.
That's returning rudeness with rudeness...I don't know if that's called for. I'd suggest sending a thank you note for whatever card or gift you received with a P.S. "I'm not sure if you remembered, but I kept my last name, which is _______. I'd appreciate it if you addressed correspondence to Ms.____ and Mr._____"
How many times do you have to tell some people that you kept your last night? Infinity times, until they die. Some people will just never accept it. I've found this to be true only of my partner's family, who just can't fathom that I don't want his last name. Luckily, we don't see his family very often. ; )
The last name thing is certainly a quandary, but I think giving a child a hyphenated last name is problematic--it puts them in an awkward position when one day they want to make their own family, having two last names already. Friends of ours invented a new name that included one letter from each of the original last names of their parents, then hyphenated it on to their own names. Their daughter just has that new last name. It's a sustainable solution.
I like the idea of creating a new name, but I don't think hyphenating is problematic. 1) Who says the couple wants to have kids anyway? 2) I think the kid could figure out what to do with her hyphenated name when she grows up.
I have two last names, and it hasn't been a problem. I'm probably going to give my kids my partner's last name - for simplicity and because I have siblings and cousins carrying on both of my last names and he does not. I will probably work my names in elsewhere - probably as a first name for at least one of them. I look forward to calling my son Jr.
For the record, I have two last names and I agree that it's a problem for the kids. After all, when I get married, I can't hyphenate my last name. I really don't want three last names. When I get married I'll probably take my partner's last name just to get rid of the hyphen.
I would suggest giving the kids one of the last names as a middle name if you don't want to create a new name. I know that brings up the question of whose, but the hyphen thing really isn't sustainable.
Though I'm not Latina, I've always liked the Spanish-derived custom of having the paternal surname followed by the maternal name, unhyphenated. The person generally uses the first name in informal settings, but both are considered legal last names. I went to highschool with a pair of Colombian siblings who (in Anglo thinking) actually had four surnames: father's, mother's, paternal grandmother's and maternal grandmother's. I thought it was great that all their foremothers were represented, and it's an awesome way to show you're proud of all the different families that came together to make you.
Both of you (your fiance and yourself) should walk down the aisle; in our ceremony, he walked out with the pastor, because it was convenient, and I walked myself out. I do warn you, though - I didn't realize the stage fright I'd have being stared at by so many people! Alternatively, have both parents walk you down. I personally felt better representing myself in the entry part of the ceremony, but you may feel differently, of course! We also set up our invitations to make it clear that WE were getting married, not that our parents were marrying us off. :-) I also love the idea of gender-neutral language - we axed anything that wasn't equal to the two of us, but paring it down to "any couple could use this ceremony regardless of gender(s) present" is a pretty cool idea.
Huh, my tone comes across as telling you what to do, but I'm really just suggesting, I swear! :-) In the end, you and your partner should do what makes you happy. Fancy, casual, alternative; whatever traditions you like, keep, whatever you don't, toss, anything you want to modify (I was at one where they did the bouquet and garter toss at the same time to a mixed group, which was a fun scramble!!), etc. I even arranged the music for our ceremony, because it made it that much more personal. It's all about the two of you!
I was a fan of:
delegation: some stuff was my job and some stuff was Shiner's job. For things that were "his job" he researched vendors or DYI options and set up appointments and was the primary contact person, and I just had to show up. A lot of people were not used to having the groom run a wedding planning meeting, but they either got their feminism horizons broadened or they just couldn't deal (and continued directing all questions and correspondence to me!), which gave us one handy way of knowing which businesses we ought not be working with.
giving myself permission to not give a shit about certain things. No flowers, no matchy matchy, no garter toss/cake smashing/whatever. If I didn't care about it and he didn't care about it, it didn't get done. Awesomeness.
using my wedding and my marriage as an opportunity to speak very personally, and not just politically/ethically about why I care so fucking much about marriage equality. Seriously, I thought I meant it before (and I did mean it before!) and I wouldn't have believed that my committment could deepen, but it has, and in ways that make me teary. My dad gets it now. I knew he'd come around.
non-trad resources like Offbeat Bride (the book, the website, and the discussion forums) and One Perfect Day (the book that provides many handy family-ready excuses for why you are not doing things they may expect).
getting married in a faith tradition that recognizes same sex marriage on an equal basis with opposite sex marriage. I would have just gone to the courthouse if that hadn't been possible. Well, I also wouldn't be a member of any faith community in which that isn't the case so I guess it's a moot point.
giving brief, vague responses to casual acquaintances who asked about wedding planning. It just wasn't ever the most interesting thing going on in my life, and I didn't like acting as though it was. Plus, if you're not going the traditional route some people will look at you like you've set your teeth into the soft flesh of a baby's neck right in front of them, so it's just more pleasant for everyone to change the subject.
Have you considered limiting your wedding location to states that perform same sex marriages? I've thought for a while that this kind of statement could make more of an impact than refusing to get married -- we all know states love to reap the benefits of the wedding industry, and seeing the industry take off in California was a major reason Massachusetts now allows out of state residents to get married there. Something to think about. Maybe even something to organize people around!
Good idea but probably the travel is too expensive for most people. Would work if you happen to live near the border to one of those states.
True, which is why I think people in NY are ideally suited for the task, with both Connecticut and Massachusetts nearby :)
I got hitched (as you put it) 3 months ago and my big deal was church: no way I was putting so much of a foot in it! So we got married at City Hall by ourselves the day before, and we celebrated our love later with family and friends. To add just a splash of tradition into the party, Hubby and I exchanged our vows so that the room would have a "hoooonnnn" moment. That and the cake were the only "wedding concessions" at the party.
As for the last name, where I live, in Quebec (french-speaking province of Canada) you can't, even if you want to, take your husband's name. To change it to his is the same process as changing your name to Petula: it's long and expensive. So we all keep our own name! How cool is it?
If any of you speak French, here's a "wannabe Feminiting" blog at www.jesuisfeministe.com
I find this very interesting since I had just assumed that wives taking their husbands' last names was a widespread western tradition. Somehow I feel better knowing this isn't the standard in Quebec.
p.s. I feel like I should have known this too, being from Maine. I'm always learning.
It's the same way in Italy.
Things we did:
1) I walked myself down the aisle
2) We had live plants as centerpieces, that way we could give them away to interested guests, plus they were beautiful and way less expensive
3) We both changed our last name--I'm keeping my birth name as well, professionally (space no hyphen!)--but we went through both of our family trees and considered names of female relatives who had no brothers and picked our favorite
4) I was really happy to find a venue that didn't charge more for wedding food than for other banquets (which is pretty common and ticks me off)
5) The wedding reception and service were both child-friendly (not sure if that is feminist or neutral). My niece asking "has it started yet" after I had walked down the aisle--priceless.
6) No throwing things/garter nonsense
Have a joyous wedding that celebrates the traditions that matter to you and your partner and rejects the traditions you think are bunk. Have fun!
Wow... I so appreciate that you are choosing to share this journey with this community, because me and my partner (opposite-gendered so therefore legally able to marry if we so choose) are working through all this now. one thing i do wish is that feminists would consider before judging someone who takes a different last name. i am choosing to take my partner's last name because both my mother and father's last name are things i want to get rid of, and i can't think of a better way than choosing to do this when i decide to start my new family. plus, his family (and thus, last name) are very special to me in a way that my father's family never was. so i appreciate when people realize and appreciate my conscious choice to take on a last name i value and love, rather than assuming i am succumbing to patriarchal pressure (which trust me, neither of us are planning to do in any pther aspect of the wedding). i could go on, but i could talk about all of these issues for way too long...
This is a very difficult area for me, one that I feel very strongly about, so I'm going to respond and I hope that it comes across in the spirit in which is intended.
I understand the desire to get rid of a burdened set of family names from your parents, and acknowledge the positive force of your partner's family, by taking his name. However, your individual action - though made in a thoughtful way, acknowledging feminist issues - affects my life as a married woman who did not change her name. Until men and women change their names at marriage, for whatever reasons, in equal numbers, a woman changing her name to a man's at marriage will continue to be supporting the patriarchal tradition. Society will still see my choice as outside the norm, call me by the wrong name, and make me carry copies of my marriage license to prove that I'm married.
So, I cannot not judge your decision, or consider it feminist, because it has a negative effect for other women, including me, though a positive effect for you.
I understand and appreciate the spirit of your comment. In fact, if you were the only one who felt this way, I wouldn't be so defensive about my choice.
Please understand that this has nothing to do with ease or expediency. Our firmly atheistic, partnership and marriage-equality-focused wedding ceremony takes away any of the "ease" our traditional last-name-choice has given us in terms of family acceptance. I am not complaining about this, but simply explaining that I am not trying to choose an easier road, any more than I am sure your decision was not made to simply choose a less-travelled road.
That being said, I feel that my marriage must be a conscious decision. I am not taking any tradition (including newer, feminist-based ones, because they certainly exist) at face value. This is how I live my life, and this is how I actively embrace my partner and our relationship. I felt that my determination to keep my own name, for the sake of the feminist community and the societal good, was not a conscious decision, but rather a choice I felt I had to make. If I simply wanted to go against the grain, I would not be getting legally married, especially when so many near and dear to me do not have that option. But it is a conscious decision on our part to embrace that relationship status for ourselves while continuing to fight to end inequality.
I have a great respect for your decision. But my family situation is a deeply personal, hurtful matter, and I am consciously choosing as an adult to enter into a partnership and to identify myself with a family that I have chosen (and who has chosen me, for whatever reason, and nurtured me for nearly 8 years). I do not take this decision lightly or flippantly and understand that it is difficult to understand, but that does not make it less valid or less in line with my and my partner's feminist, humanist values. I appreciate those is the feminist community and my own who respect that decision.
My boyfriend has opted to take my name in marriage because of his family circumstances and close relationship with my family. We considered all of the various naming options and chose the one that made that most sense for us, just as it seems you did. And if anyone wants to give you shit for your personal decision, with my partner taking on my last name and you taking on your partner's last name, we should cancel each other out! :) I'll gladly donate some of the feminist rep points I'll get for going nontraditional to replace the points you'll lose by going traditional, despite the fact that we arrived there for the same reason. (Kidding of course, just trying to put a little lighthearted spin on things)
Heh. This is interesting to me, because I did change my name, mostly because I didn't like my first name, and chose a new surname to go with. It wasn't actually that difficult or expensive to do in my state; you inserted a legal notice in the local paper and showed up in court. I did it as a poor college student. Now, getting everyone to use the new name, that was a cost. If I'd known how much easier it was just to change a first name (basically write a letter to your state government) I'd probably be Mrs. Lastname now.
But I did choose a last name to go with the new first name (which I chose more for atheistic than feminist reasons, at least consciously), and having gone to all that trouble to get it, wasn't about to give it up when I got married. (A boyfriend wanted us to have the same last names. Fine, I said. You can take mine. He didn't like that so much, and it was one reason I didn't marry him.)
It takes about 10 years for people to get used to a totally new name & some family members still have trouble with it a quarter century later. Changing your name to something totally new is not for someone who doesn't feel a strong attachment to the new name. I chose mine to fit me, because i was an agnostic/atheist whose name literally meant 'grace of desert god, son of thunder god'.
You've chosen a name with good associations and meaning for you, as I did for me, not mindlessly gone with the flow. That's good enough for this totally-new-name-kept-it-after-marriage.
To me, feminism is about opening up choices for women, not shutting them down. We should strive to make keeping one's own name or the man taking the woman's name (or hyphenation or name combinations, or new names, or whatever you want) to to do equally valid to the existing choices. The whole point is to approach the situation with thought instead of simply following patriarchal tradition because it's there. I don't see how shaking your finger at someone who has come to a decision thoughtfully is helping expand the choices we have.
Do you also think that stay at home moms are wrong? The woman's movement has fought long and hard to allow women to enter the workforce and gain equality there. By your logic, going the "default" route hinders progress, even if a woman chooses that for herself. Again, I happen to think that the fight against sexism should be aimed at opening up options and making them equally valid. I want women to feel they are free to decide what their daily life is, whether it be in a career or raising children. I also think women should feel completely free to take or keep whatever name they want in marriage, including their husband's name.
True, a women thoughtfully choosing to take a man's name is not deserving of any kind of attack.
But it's not fair to pretend that going along with tradition has NO harmful effect. It has the mildly harmful effect of reinforcing a patriarchal mindset. It takes advantage of a system that makes it easier for women to change their names than it does for men. That's all. This should be ONE (of possibly many) decision-making factors.
Of course, it's always easy to go the conventional route. But so long as you don't arrive there solely because it is traditional or easy, I don't have a problem with it. What I do have a problem with is attacking people for personal decisions that they've clearly put a great deal of thought into.
Also, we are trying to find a way to ensure that we are ALWAYS referred to as Mr. Hisfirstname Ourlastname and Ms. Herfirstname Ourlastname. No Mrs. or Mrs. Hisfirstname Ourlastname. This is a point we will be adamant about. I cannot tell you how much it upsets us to see our grandmothers, both of whom are long-widowed, refer to themsels as Mrs. Husband'sentirename. Shudder. I will not be losing my identity, but rather enhancing it by adding our new family name (or at least that is how we choose to view the decision).
Also, we are trying to find a way to ensure that we are ALWAYS referred to as Mr. Hisfirstname Ourlastname and Ms. Herfirstname Ourlastname. No Mrs. or Mrs. Hisfirstname Ourlastname. This is a point we will be adamant about. I cannot tell you how much it upsets us to see our grandmothers, both of whom are long-widowed, refer to themsels as Mrs. Husband'sentirename. Shudder. I will not be losing my identity, but rather enhancing it by adding our new family name (or at least that is how we choose to view the decision).
Quail's comment was measured and thoughtful, and sans any finger-wagging. While feminism to you may mean "I choose my choice", feminism for me (and Quail, it seems) is about examining those choices and realizing they do not occur in a vacuum. Hence, these choices affect other women.
Taking your partner's name is categorically unfeminist. If someone hated their last name, or wanted to break from their family, what was stopping them from changing it before they were married? These are the sorts of tough, uncomfortable questions feminists face everyday. Does every part of a person's life have to be feminist? Of course not, it's impossible as we're living in a patriarchal society. HOWEVER, critically examining one's choices is a crucial element to growing as a feminist.
Also re: stay-at-home moms-- this choice is also perhaps not as free as you seem to think. Maybe the mother has no education beyond high school and can't find a job. Maybe a job she could get doesn't provide day care. Maybe she doesn't have a car and couldn't get to a job everyday, and on and on. Do you see how this is less of a "choice" and more of "the only option"?
Measured and thoughtful does not necessarily mean non-judgemental. Again, I realize my choices affect others and the personal IS deeply political. But I am not changing my name to a totally random new name when I a)wish to share a name with my partner and possible future children and b)because his family is worthy of the honor of having me added to their ranks, and I will not throw away the opportunity to join them, as they have supported me in so many ways for many, many years.
Were the situation reversed, he would take my name. I don't doubt that for a minute. But I cannot help what my family means to me and neither can he. Just as you cannot speculate as to the income/education/self-respect level of EVERY sahm, neither can you do the same for every couple who makes the decision to take one last name. I also suspect if both my partner and I were women, or both men, we wouldn't receive as much flack for choosing the name that meant the most to BOTH of us. I would appreciate the same consideration.
Even if you found the post to be judgmental, it certainly wasn't shaming. I never said there weren't reasons for taking someone else's name, only that it's an unfeminist choice. And it most certainly is.
However, as long as you recognize and own that, I'm fine with it. I'm not trying to come off preachy, I make unfeminist choices every single day (as we all do). But I realize that wearing makeup and not being assertive and shopping at certain places are not feminist. Despite all that, I am STILL a feminist, and having these sorts of conversations about what is so often silenced under the veil of "it's a personal choice, respect it/don't talk about it" is enormously valuable and inherently feminist. I'm not judging you, just analyzing!
The analysis is understood, but your placing a value judgement on the wholistic experience of my marriage and formation of a family is not a "feminist" choice.
My life as a feminist is a wholistic choice, and I believe the same to be true about my relationship(s). Thus the term "wholistic."
As a feminist, I will continue to take issue with being categorized, or having my decisions, actions, or choices categorized. I reject your assertion that my actions are "unfeminist." This is NOT a black-and-white issue. There is not ONE correct, feminist option. Getting married, civil-unionized, discussing with attorneys, remaining unwed, living in polyamory... all valid decisions. The same is true with this issue. If I chose to mush the two names into one, or go by one name, or keep my own, or hyphenate, none of these decisions, made in a thoughtful manner, can be categorized as "feminist" or "unfeminist."
The feminist decision is to live my life wholistically, as I choose, honoring the values that my partner and I hold dear and respecting the rights of others to do the same.
I realize I've commented on this thread WAY too many times, but I wanted to agree with your holistic approach to feminism. I didn't really understand the question about whether or not all parts of one's life should be feminist. Feminism is a philosophy and it applies the same way any other belief or ideology. My belief about the status of women and gender relations doesn't change depending on the circumstances. However, my ability to adhere to my own feminist standards does vary. I admit, sometimes I conform to the beauty standard because it's easier in the short term or I don't speak up when I should or I judge women without considering all of the circumstances that lead them to their decisions. But that's because I'm human and therefore imperfect, not because feminism just doesn't apply to those areas of my life. There are plenty of other virtues I try to adhere to and despite my inability to be perfectly honest or empathetic (or insert whatever other value systems you hold), it doesn't mean that there are portions of my life in which those virtues don't apply. (Except maybe neutral things that involve no judgment like how I butter my toast)
And I've said it way too many times in this thread but what's one more going to hurt?: If, in the context of your life and with consideration to feminist values, you arrive at a decision that may be traditionally chosen for unfeminist reasons - that doesn't make it unfeminist!
You're inferring that value judgment-- I'm not making one. I'm not trying to make you feel badly about taking your husband's name, just attempting to point out that the tradition of taking the husband's name is deeply rooted in misogyny and continuing that tradition--for whatever reasons one may do so--is not a feminist choice.
Clearly this is a highly sensitive topic, and I'm sorry if it seemed like I was calling you out as a bad feminist. You aren't, and I wasn't. The fact that you took your husband's name doesn't make you less of a feminist, it just means you took part in an unfeminist tradition-- again, for valid reasons, but nonetheless an unfeminist tradition.
See, that's the thing. You aren't two women, or two men. You are a heterosexual couple operating in a society that has remnants of a very patriarchal past, one of the vestiges of which is the tradition of women taking their husband's name. That is why it matters.
I know this sounds judgmental, and in some ways it is. I'm glad for the freedom we have so that you can choose to take his name, if you want (rather than it being forced on you), but I can't in good faith, on a feminist board, allow this tradition to go unchallenged, even if your choice is made for a good reason.
I hope you understand that I'm writing out of a place of both hope and discouragement that collectively, many women of my generation are choosing to change their names for myriad reasons. I'm glad so many are thinking critically about it, but it doesn't change the fact that my choice is still a minority choice, and men changing their names is still a minority choice. That won't change except with individual action.
And, thanks for the good conversation!
"Taking your partner's name is categorically unfeminist."
I disagree. I think one's motivation and intent determine whether an action is feminist. But clearly we're not going to come to an agreement on this one.
And in response to the stay-at-home mom issue, I should have elaborated further in my comment before I rushed to hit submit. I was referring to women who choose staying at home freely and I believe there are women who do. I was trying to make the point that I think it's acceptable to choose (and I emphasize choice here) to do something even as fight for the option NOT to do that very thing. We need to fight against the social and educational barriers that prevent women from entering the workplace while still acknowledging that choosing to stay at home is a valid option. I feel the same about fighting for it to be socially acceptable to choose 'alternative' naming conventions in marriage. So long as it's for the right reasons, taking a man's name is still a valid choice. Again, it's clear we are not going to agree on this particular issue, but I did a poor job of explaining the stay at home mom example so I wanted to make it clear why I brought it up.
The likelihood of a woman choosing to take her husband's name because she considers her husband's family to be an integral part of her identity and wishes to reject her own family is probably about as likely as a man doing the same. The only difference is, the woman is discouraged from doing so because other women are doing it for other reasons. Isn't part of feminism to not be defined by anything but our own choices and actions?
Also, as it currently stands in many states it is very hard and expensive to change one's name unless one is a woman getting married. If a woman wants to change her name, and cannot afford it otherwise, why should she not take advantage of the system until it can be more egalitarian? Maybe this is the first opportunity she has had to change her name. My fiance and I are struggling with this, since he has a hyphenated name he detests and was hoping to change it to a shorter, easier name we could share when we got married. Imagine our surprise when we learned that I could do it for $15 with the marriage certificate but it would cost him over $300. He's asked his parents to help him cover the cost, and they agreed, admitting it was their fault his name was so annoying, but that's a lot of money. And it would cost me the same if I wasn't getting married. I wrote to my state reps to complain but no one even thinks about it, so it won't change anytime soon (part of me hopes that civil unions finally being legalized will force them to change the rules!). But that's a lot of money, and saving $285 just by doing it when you get married can mean a lot when you're a young couple trying to start out.
Wait - are you saying that men and women are equally likely to change their names at marriage? And that the real problem is women feeling guilted into not changing?
Out of the dozens of people I know who have gotten married in the past two or three years, I can count on one hand the number in which the woman kept her name. Not once did a man change his name to the woman's. I know this is anecdotal, but it is unrealistic to say that society expects women to keep their names. I had friends tell me that if I really loved him, and if we wanted to be a family, I would take his name. People continually call me "Mrs. HisLastname" from people at the car repair shop to our relatives.
And no, feminism is not about every woman being free to make whatever choice she wants. It's about making choices that better the world for all women, that make men and women more equal. In our society today, women are subordinate to men in many ways, and so while it is a challenge to the patriarchy when a man takes a woman's name, it is bending to patriarchal tradition for a woman to take a man's name. These are not equal acts. To say they are ignores the very real power imbalance in our society. There's a reason it costs different amounts to change a man's name at marriage and a woman's (though this is not true in all US states).
It hurts when people don't recognize how they contribute to something that negatively affects my everyday life. Sure, it's a relatively small thing compared to the challenges other women and women as a whole face in our society. But it all fits together in a bundle of assumptions about us as women, me as a married woman, and what marriage and forming a family is about.
Thanks, katie80. You've summarized exactly how I feel about this. For some reason, I find this subject particularly troubling out of the many things people justify with "choice feminism". I, too, consider a woman changing her name to her husband's an inherently unfeminist act. Like you said, I participate in many unfeminist acts all day long - and many of them because it's the easier way out in our society. I knew I was making a consciously feminist choice when I kept my name, and I am not apologetic about saying that. It is a statement to the world, just as my wedding vows were a statement.
Sure, it's just one act out of an overall feminist lifestyle. However, I think the fact that it isn't really that difficult to do, in a practical sense, makes me a little angry about those who do change. The fact that we all care about it so much shows the power of names, and for me, the importance of keeping my own.
word! :)
My husband did the same thing. I feel you.
I changed my name as well and I do wish that there was more of an understanding for the fact that this is a very personal decision for the people who make it. There are lots of reason to do it or not to do it.
For me personally, I didn't want to hyphenate for aesthetic reasons and making a combo name/new name wasn't an option for us. My husband has the III at the end of his name. His father is deceased and even considering changing his name would alienate his family in a way that isn't worth it to us. The name isn't worth it. It was important to us as a couple to be a unit though--to share a partnership in name. So I took his last name, although he told me up until the very end, he thought I'd end up keeping my maiden name.
I guess all I'm trying to say is that no one but the couple knows all of the extenuating circumstances involved in this kind of discussion and I think that as a community, we should work to respect each other's decisions. Please realize that if we name-changers are monitoring a blog like Feministing, we probably made the decision thoughtfully and with much contemplation.
Thank you so much for the support! I totally know what you mean about your spouse not "knowing" until the last minute... When I told my partner the other day that after a lot of thought, I truly wanted us to be a unit and blah blah blah (lots of personal info unnecessary for this forum), i don't he believed me!
But yes, respect for our personal decisions would be greatly appreciated and I'm happy to know that you also made a conscious decision... it certainly isn't an easy one!
I more than empathize with your situation. I have a last name I hate, because it comes from my dad from whom I'm estranged (and the rest of his family kind of stopped talking to me too when I shut him out of my life). I'm getting my name changed to my mother and stepfather's name this summer (and plan to keep that name when I get married), but I can understand why one would use getting married as the way to shed a name that they do not like. I don't judge other people's decisions regarding their marriage, but in particular I think your case is an exception to the rule. Maybe some other people don't have a similar experience and don't understand, but at least be sure that some of us do. :)
What I meant was that your case was an exception to the rule about keeping the name being an anti-feminist thing, not the rule about me not judging people's situations. Sorry; that wasn't very clear.
I got it... and thanks :)
I made the same choice you did, for pretty much the same reasons. I had abandoned my original last name at 19 as part of the process of disowning my father, who was abusive to both his (now thankfully ex-)wife and children. However, with the exception of my mother (we've had our ups and downs, but she's a good person and I respect her) her side of the family isn't much better (dysfunctional, abusive, petty, lots of baggage there too). So I was never really attached to either of the names I used as a single woman, and both carried extremely negative associations for me.
Mr. gecko offered to take my name, but I chose to take his instead. Due to divorces and remarriages in his family, the only people we actually share it with are his paternal grandfather (who is absolutely awesome) his father, and his half-sister. Naming the kids isn't a concern since we do not plan to have them. One thing I have to give my mom credit for-she has always been very adamant about family members addressing me as "Ms. MyFirstName HisLastName". As in, even my hyperformal and old-fashioned grandmother knows better than to address me in the "traditional" way and has never done so, even though she continues to do it with my female married cousins.
One thing I am absolutely set on, though; I'm graduating with a M.S. in May, and I decided a long time ago that once I had a post-graduate degree and/or any type of publication, my last name is set in stone. As in, short of having to enter Witness Protection or finding out that my husband has committed some heinous criminal act, I am. not. ever. changing it. again. As in, not for anybody, ever.
I doubt you need to be reminded of this, but remember that it's your wedding. You don't have to do anything you don't want to. Don't get pressured into anything, unless it is something that isn't a big deal to you that truly would make someone's day.
In the Jewish tradition, both the bride and the groom are escorted down the aisle by both of their parents. We had a Jewish ceremony, but even if we didn't, I would have done it that way anyway. It's about leaving your old life behind to form a new family with your spouse, not some awful patriarchal tradition of your father transferring ownership to your husband. Bleh! Besides, my mom loved it. She was so proud to walk down the aisle with me, and I'm happy I was able to honor both my parents that way.
Also, keep a very, very close eye on money. It's amazing how much weddings can cost, how much every little thing adds up. Every time you decide on something, check out the price online and sleep on it, to see if it's something you really want.
If you're into DIY:
We were very fortunate at our wedding that the site was beautiful and needed very few flowers. We got my flowers from a local florist and my mom grew the rest - she had a big back yard and we had a long engagement, so there was lots of time/space. If you have that kind of time and space, it's worth considering. She still has the potted plants that decorated the reception in her yard today (I've been married 2.5 yrs).
We also made our own invitations. There are lots of ways to go about this, but we made cardstock envelopes and printed the invitation wording on the inside of them. It was much less wasteful, both environmentally, since there were no extra envelopes/vellum, and monetarily, since we didn't spend all that money on something most people were going to toss anyway. Not including postage, our invites were about 60 bucks.
Who cares? I love this website, but "How to have a feminist wedding" is sort of a silly question. Just do whatever--just because you have a "traditional" wedding (whatever that means anymore) does not make you a bad feminist! The wedding is a party, a ceremony. What the wedding is like and how your marriage will be are completely unrelated. At my wedding, which was very small, I just wanted my parents and my husband's parents to feel comfortable. I wanted other people to be happy and have fun. The wedding (and the marriage) was not about ME and MY beliefs or MY husband's beliefs...there are other people to please as well. It's about compromise--after all, you are bringing two families together. That's how I viewed it anyway. I think it's worth it to make others happy...I'd rather see my family happy than feel vindicated in my personal beliefs.
PS--Can you tell I am not a huge fan of weddings? I think they are a huge waste of time, money, and energy. Marriage is awesome though :) Congrats!
I began using my mother's last name as part of mine in college and I love it. It is technically my middle name - I refer to the change in presentation as a promotion. It's an interesting and accessible way to discuss feminism as a personal and political choice, and it makes my name distinctive and memorable - it gives me gravitas.
Most people are respectful, though a lot of people leave it off because it's not legally my last name. Insisting that people use it was a great lesson in self-advocacy for me during a time of great personal growth. I don't use a hyphen because it throws off the balance of my written name - Rachel McCarthy James.
I've never, ever, ever considered changing my name. My mother kept hers (obv) so it's a significant point for me. I don't plan on hyphenating or what have you when I marry - three names is too many, and I like mine. I would consider substituting my partner's names for one of mine if he would add one of mine to his, but he won't.
Our children will probably have his last name solely and I will find another way to work in my name. It's what my parents did. Additionally, my partner does not have any siblings who will reproduce, and I do (most likely) so it's a matter of greater importance to his parents.
My mother got married in green, and I plan on doing the same - for sentimental reasons and because it looks rad on me. I don't plan on doing a whole lot of traditional things at our wedding. My dad won't walk me down the aisle, and I don't plan on having any kind of first dance awkwardness.
All of this works out nicely for my partner because he's not comfortable being the center of attention and knows my values, but I wonder how his traditional mother will react.
I did the same thing! I now go by my full three names, since my middle name is officially my mother's last name (she didn't change hers when she got married, either). I agree with the gravitas - I like it, and it gives my mom credit where credit is due.
I just wonder when people will be confused and think my Middle is my maiden and Last is my married name...hasn't happened yet, but we'll see.
I second the offbeatbride.com recommendation--it's an awesome community with a lot of great resources for people looking to do things a little less traditionally.
I think there are lots of ways you can tweak traditions to make them fun and feminist but still give your guests a little of what they're expecting.
My husband and I did the garter/bouquet thing. I knitted the flowers I tossed and he had a Yankees garter that he was super excited about. We opened the tossing up to all of our guests though and made it a good luck thing--tying scratch-off lottery tickets to them. The most hilarious part was when my 7-year-old niece got the garter and won $2!
We also walked each other down the aisle at the beginning of the ceremony to the Muppets singing "Somebody's Getting Married." We felt like it was sort of symbolic--walking to our life together sort of thing.
Anyway, I could go on and on. We wrote the ceremony and my Internet-ordained brother married us. The most important part is just to make it your own. We did everything just how we wanted and everyone told us it was the best wedding they'd ever been to.
The name change problem is such a tricky one. I wouldn't judge anyone for taking her husband's name because I understand wanting to share a last name to symbolize their status as a family, particularly if they plan to have children. The practice of taking the man's name is rooted in patriarchy (the transfer of ownership from the father to the husband) but sharing a name does serve a practical purposes for some couples. What I will criticize is the general social practice of nearly ALWAYS taking the man's name and the fact that so many people consider the reverse emasculating.
I have it easy. My boyfriend of six years brought up the subject a few years ago (although we are still not at a point we are planning marriage) and he suggested that if we marry, he should take my name. His dad walked out on their family and his mom reverted back to her maiden name so the only person his last name is connected to is a p.o.s. who hasn't been involved in his life since he was nine. On the other hand, he's very much a part of my family. If we are going to take one of our last names to share, why would we choose the family name that has so little to do with our lives? It works out to be a bit of a feminist statement, but to us it was just logical. It also helps that our last names are very similar (if he changes his mind a combination of our names would be super easy). I'm curious to see if there will be extra hoops we have to jump through to make it happen since the default is the woman changing to the man's name.
Nothing much to add about the wedding, but as an old married broad who is celebrating her 11th anniversary this year I would just like to add this: Remember that the wedding is not as important as the marriage. I've seen far too many incredibly level-headed, progressive couples get so caught up in the planning the wedding that they forget to discuss what they expect from each other once they are legally (and in most cases religiously) attached. That usually doesn't end well.
Oh, and remember to have fun. It's easy to let overbearing relatives get to you (my MIL did) and suck some of the joy out of your special moment. Do your best to let it go whenever you can.
The wedding was 6 years ago so let's see what I can remember...oy!
First and foremost was writing our own ceremony and picking the officiant. I wanted a specific location, which was a non-denominational chapel in a local historic site. I was going to use the "house minister" as they called it (made it sound like a wine or a salad to me), but he suggested, and I am ever eternal that he did, that my (then) fiance and I attend one of his services before committing. It was an hour and a half of gay, feminist, and woman bashing which we walked out of in tears halfway through. Then I hit the internet and found a lesbian from my hometown who is a non-denominational minister. When I met with her (fiance couldn't because of scheduling), I explained the importance of a minister and ceremony that reflected our values of love and the right for anyone to get married. She agreed vehemently and handed us a ceremony template which we then worked with. We are Christian, so it was important to us to find a biblical reading. I managed to find one that, when read at a wedding, sends an anti-DV message, which I thought was fabulous. We also chose a Shakesperian sonnet which was purported to be written to his gay lover (although some still maintain it was his best friend and not a lover). We wrote our own vows, which was a great personal touch plus it didn't have any of that honor and obey bullcrap.
I did have my dad walk me down the aisle; at first I had wanted both parents however the aisle was too skinny and it was very important to my Dad (no matter how hard I tried to explain that it wasn't slighting him for me to walk alone), so that was one concession I made.
My fiancee was involved in the planning as well; for the most part we didn't delegate specific tasks (other than dresses v. tuxes) but did them together, when his crazy work schedule at the time allowed for that. Most things were fairly laissez-faire and we let the vendors make a lot of decisions by saying "We kinda like X, can pay Y, you figure out the rest" and it worked out well. No flowers as decorations, just bouquets and boutonnieres. Everything was from local vendors.
We made the announcement of our names (I took his last name as a second last name; kids will have my last name too) but like others have said, everyone promptly disregarded my real name and continue to call me Mrs. hisfirstname hislastname (including my own mother who really should know better).
And if you got through that tome I congratulate you.
"I am ever eternal that he did" should be "I am eternally grateful that he did".
Also wanted to mention that hubby offered to change his name to match mine but I had read (on a legal website no less!) that in my state for a man to do so he had to plead before a judge and pay a large fee that we couldn't afford so I said screw that, but it turned out that info was wrong (the state was wrong - it substituted MN for MS, I think), but it was too late by the time we found out. Which brings me to another point: learn the laws (and fees) of your state FROM the state and not from a private lawyer!
Getting legal advice is a little different than getting it from a lawyer.
But generally, official government sites are a great resource for what the law is.
I've always been a little baffled by the argument 'not getting married until everyone can' being a political act. It makes a good sound bite, but I doubt the people who oppose same sex marriage care if a bunch of liberals cohabitate instead of marrying. It just gives them "All these godless liberals living in sin!" to point at.
Instead, we decided to get married in MA. Admittedly it wasn't too much of a hardship, my family was in NH, his family was in IN and we were in OH. Somebody was going to be traveling any way we did it. (We did end up moving to MA during our engagement, so that worked out nicely.)
My thought is that if states with same sex marriage have much higher marriage rates and plus the jump in revenue, conservatives might put money before morality, as they so often do. Right now it's a particularly strong argument given the states are in debt, the economy is crap, but people often have money set aside for a wedding.
In my women studies class last semester, a guy (not sure if straight or gay, but from his comment I think gay) said something very thought-provoking. He said that people who are legally allowed to marry should, since they are able to. Since same-sex couples aren't allowed to join in that way, he thought straight couples should take the opportunities they have, and appreciate them.
I really like his point of view- it's not one that's commonly pointed out, but I think it's very valid and should definitely be brought up.
It's true that people with privilege have many opportunities that marginalized groups do not. However, many of those privileged people don't want those opportunities, and feel forced into a certain role b/c they happened to be born a certain way. I'm not comfortable saying that somebody SHOULD do something b/c they have that right and it is so wonderful. Privilege for one person might feel like a straight-jacket for another.
Well, I don't have any tips. I just want to say whatever you do, I wish you and your partner the best. I hope that its stress free and just makes ya warm inside. Im so cheesy. lol.
But no really, do what sits well with your feminist ideology. I bet reading everyones comments here and on your announcement post made you cookoo cause theres gonna be people that hate shit you do and love shit you do and accuse you of not being a feminist and yadda yadda. At the end of the day its you and your partner and the decions yall make. No one elses.
Okay, I do have a tip. Have lots of fun!
The best part of my wedding was that it was really personalized. I threw a softball instead of a bouquet, we danced to a song my partner's best friend wrote specifically for us, and my good friend made our cake. We wrote our own vows that told stories about each other, and used "I choose you," instead of "take" or "obey", that kind of stuff.
Knowing that the money we were spending was going to people we knew (the florist and photographer were friends of friends), or organizations we support (we got married at a Goodwill training site where they train people with disabilities to run events) made the whole thing less stressful.
I'm engaged too and getting married soon.
I have spent a lot of time trying to have an event that is still recognizable as a wedding, but palatable to me and my fiance. We are having a courthouse ceremony and a casual reception at my parents house. I am lucky because neither my parents nor his have all these expectations for us, but many other couples are not so lucky.
I've found that it's most important to try and relax about everything. It's ok to be particular about the things that are most important to you, but everything is always pushing you to be a "bride" and obsess and care about every small detail. (They probably mean well and love you and want you to have your special day like little girls in our culture are supposed to dream of.) It drowns out the voice of reason sometimes and then pretty soon you are convincing yourself that you really do need all kinds of stuff that is actually insignificant. And fuck that shit! It takes too much time, too much money, it causes too much stress and *someone* will find something to bitch about.
Honestly, it's hard to give people advice about how feminist they want the whole thing to be because people are going to give you tons of crap about it no matter what. I don't know, but probably for you people are more likely to give you shit for not being feminist enough because of who you are. But it's like people's decision to have kids - it's very personal and there are a ton of factors at play and people looooove to judge you about it. And tell them to go fuck themselves and do what you want.
Ok, feminist-y things that I personally am doing include:
-we both have engagement rings and no, mine isn't a diamond.
-we are both adding the last name of the other to our names, so we will have 4 names.
-no getting walked down the aisle, no child/parent dances, no garter or bouquet tossing, no hiding me on the day of and no religious ceremony where I have to promise to be submissive or have children or whatever.
-I'm not trying to lose weight.
-we have no attendants, so I won't have an army of friends to dress up and order around.
-my fiance is involved in the planning as well.
I did have an all-woman bridal shower, which is something that I was a bit opposed to before, but one of my mom's friends wanted to have one for me and I adore her and I couldn't say no. It was small and casual and very nice and I had a very fun time being surrounded by women I love and admire, so I am glad we did it.
This isn't necessarily a feminist POV (although maybe some of it is) so much as it is just my personal feelings. I'll admit it's pretty negative about marriage in some places, but who knows, maybe it'll help.
Wedding Daze
And also- It's a nice day for a green wedding if you're into that.
-Lilith
I alluded to this above, but I thought I'd pose it as a direct question: how do you deal with a future mother-in-law who has certain traditional/patriarchal expectations of what a wedding should be?
I'm not facing this issue yet, but I can see my partner's mom getting very upset about certain decisions.
This is a very common problem. I lurk a forum for less traditional brides and there are tons and tons of people with this problem, but since nearly everyone on the forum is dealing with this issue in some form there is plenty of advice to go around.
http://kvetch.indiebride.com/
It's a good resource for anyone who wants anything besides a 100% cookie cutter wedding.
Our rule is that we are responsible for running interference with our own families of origin. That goes for the wedding and for everything else. So he manages his parents' expectations, I manage mine. I just happen to have had an easier job of this when it came to the wedding, since my parents were both completely Do What You Want about it. That helped, and also the fact that that we were always a united front when talking about the wedding in front of our families. If you are always simley smiley, I am so excited for X, it will be so meaningful to your child/to my family/to me, that makes it hard for any tacful person to give you grief about X.
Okay maybe it's a day late and a dollar short for this, but it's something I've been thinking about. On the issue of marriage and "same sex" marriage, I mean, why not just go to a lawyer and work out power of attorney, living wills, etc etc etc, as a substitute for getting married? That's what I'm going to do since I can't legally marry the person I'm in love with. Then you will think through the things you want from the legal benefits of marriage, etc. I don't know. Just food for thought, I guess.
And I want to second thinking about the labor conditions surrounding your wedding. Who is making your dress? Where are the flowers coming from? Who is cooking and serving your food? I worked in catering for a long time, and lots of weddings exploit labor rights abuses. In that sense, I would probably discourage the whole "cameras on the table" thing. It's good for the pictures, but I would do digital cameras if possible. All that film processing! That's really cool you bought a dress from somewhere that gives the money up to charity.
Going for powers of attorney and such can be very useful for same-sex couples, but it does not and cannot confer *all* the legal benefits of marriage.
I get that, I do, absolutely. The issue is figuring out what you want out of the legal benefits of being partnered in a marriage.
Please don't be one of those women who says, "I'm keeping my name, but I don't mind what people call me." That just makes it harder for those of us who do want to be called by the correct name.
Some will think they're clever by saying, "your last name is really your father's name." They should be reminded that by that standard your husband's last name is only his father's too. Of course, the truth is that you each possess your own last name, and should each have the opportunity to pass down his/her name. That means if using just his name for the kids is on the table, the reverse should be an option too. A real option, not just one you tell people you reeelly reellly considered.
If you give your kids hyphenated names, many will ask, "what if your kid marries someone else with a hyphenated name?" A good response is to tell them that double names are a tradition in Spanish-speaking countries. Kids manage there and yours will too.
If you settle for your last name being a second middle name or the first part of an unhyphenated double name, (in America) that's pretty much the same as just giving them his last name. If it's suggested to you, a good response is to ask the questioner if they'd be in favor of the kids getting his last name as a second middle name with yours as the sole/second last name.
Good luck, you'll be astonished and horrified by how many women in your fiance's and even your own family will be passive-aggressive or just plain aggressive about forcing your fiance's name on you and your children.
No, it's absolutely not "pretty much the same as giving them his last name". It's not as significant as a last name, but that's really dismissive of women who make that choice. A name is intimate and will stay with a child forever. My mother kept her last name and gave me hers as a middle name, and it was very influential on my growth as a feminist - I later adopted it as a part of my last name.
RMJ, for almost all intents and purposes, it is pretty much the same as giving them his last name. A second middle name is only seen on the birth certificate and only heard at school graduations. It is "intimate" because it is hidden. I'm not dismissing them, they've dismissed themselves by not seeing themselves as worthy of doing what every man is raised to expect to be able to do: keep his birth name and proudly pass it on as a last name to his children.
I very strongly disagree. Middle names are often very significant to the bearers. All through my school age years my friends and I shared and discussed our middle names and what they meant and where they came from. My middle name comes from both sides of my family, and will be passed down to my daughter, along with my last name. I distinctly remember the friends of mine who had their mothers' name as their middle name, and I thought it was cool, even as a fifth-grader. To say that passing on your name as a second middle name is meaningless is essentially to say that all middle names are meaningless.
Did you really mean to imply that women who don't care about which name they're called are responsible for the stupidity and disrespect of people who can't manage to call others who do care by their preferred names?
'Cause that's what you implied.
We had fun with the bouqet toss. I did remember to make one but forgot to carry it. We called all the single folks that wanted to participate and encouraged any one that did not want to catch to give it a gentle volly so someone who did want to catch it could.
Some things that really helped us have fun at our wedding.
1- Making a wedding program that explained what was going to happen in our untraditional wedding ceremony so guests were prepared.
2- Including the audience into the ceremony (there was sort of a shout out section which was rather funny)
3- Walking around with trays of shots on the dance floor
4- Instead of speeches from the best man / maid of honor we got up and said our thank yous to the people who taught us how to love
5- When people asked us about children or last names our stock answer was "its still under negotiations" which was a polite way of saying it is none of your damn business
You thought it was rude for people to ask you about what they would be calling you and your husband after the wedding?
I think the fact that people even asked about name changing instead of just assuming it is great.
Speaking as someone with a hyphenated last name when my mother kept her last name, I'm kind of torn about the notion. I'm very proud of my last name and the fact that my mother kept hers, but it has been a HUGE pain.
Perhaps that is changing for younger generations, but it has been a big hassle and people still don't seem to understand. Perhaps it's my particular last name - I don't know, but if I get married (I'm optimistic that same-sex marriage WILL be legalized in my lifetime) or have a civil ceremony or something, I may do something different with my last name. And as for children, it would really just depend on how common it is then.
I had similar issues when I got married in 2006. My feminist sensibilities would not allow for certain traditions at my wedding:
1. No "obey" in the vows. For either of us.
2. No throwing of the garter or bouquet. I do not approve of humiliating those who are not married. Instead, we did an "anniversary" dance. Invite all the married couples up to dance, pull them off year by year until the couple married the longest is remaining. It celebrates love, marriage, and commitment. They get a small bouquet.
3. Do not be introduced as "man and wife." Insist on "husband and wife."
4. Do not be introduced as "Mr. & Mrs. So-and-so." We were introduced as such: "For the first time together as husband and wife, Alex and Stephanie!"
5. My husband was also escorted down the aisle by his parents. Rather than me being "given away" by my parents, we wanted to honor our parents as important people in our lives.
6. No chicken dance or cha-cha slide. That's demeaning to everyone.
Re: #6 - AGREED. For both feminist and music-snobbery reasons, I am programming all of our music in lieu of a DJ. There will be no "Electric Slide" or *shudder* "Baby Got Back" at our wedding.
We walked down the aisle together, along with my 3 year old son (who my husband later adopted.)
I didn't have any bridal showers, but I did get together with a lot of my women-friends a couple nights before the wedding. I guess it was a non-traditional bachelorette party. We had cocktails and snacks, and had a henna artist come and give me a tattoo on my belly and my feet. (everyone there got a small tattoo too.) It was a blast, and a very nice break in the crazy few days before the wedding.
I definitely agree with the "do what *you* want and that's what makes it feminist" comments.
That said, I also agree with the idea of trying to show through your actions (aka your wedding) what your values are. That was important for me and my husband for our wedding.
We had a semi-traditional wedding. Some of the conscious choices we made:
1. We had a wedding party because we liked the community aspect of it, but we had men and women on both sides.
2. Every member of the wedding party walked down the aisle, men and women. And although they walked out in pairs, there was no gender sorting to make it look like a bunch of straight couples.
3. My husband and I each walked down the aisle alone.
4. No traditional engagement ring. So many worries with that -- the diamond industry, the one-sided symbolism (I'm taken, he's not), the societal hype, the money. Instead we both wore our wedding bands on our right hands as "engagement rings" and then moved them to our left hands in the ceremony.
5. No bouquet toss, no garter. Enough said.
6. We made sure to hire an officiant who performs commitment ceremonies for LGBT couples too. It was the first question we asked.
7. We wrote our own ceremony, made it personal, included our beliefs about our obligations to our community and world, and said the same vows to each other.
8. Perhaps most importantly, our wedding was held in a historic building run by a nonprofit whose mission we believe in. So the money we spent all went to a good cause. We wanted to celebrate with a lot of family and friends, and we wanted to treat them to good food and fun. So we found a way to spend that money responsibly.
9. We were never announced as "Mr. and Mrs." or by just my husband's name. Perhaps obviously, I have not changed my name.
10. We had a civil ceremony, since we're not that comfortable with public displays of our own spirituality.
11. And we named our tables after our favorite feminists. :)
I really love the idea of moving the wedding band - sort of like moving the graduation tassel.
One more comment: after you get married, so many people will start asking you when you are going to have children. I hate this question. #1 - none of your business. #2 - why are we expected to have children? It's not a mandatory part of marriage. Whatever your plans are, just be prepared for the questions.
Kristina and I are getting married this summer--my second marriage, her first. Neither of us are kids (I'm 52, she's... younger than that), so the traditional princess-for-a-day wedding doesn't work for us. We ultimately decided to have an almost-elopement. My parents are no longer living, but her parents will be there--that's all. And, good self-righteous liberals that we are, we decided to take advantage of our location in the Buffalo/Niagara region (that's upstate, by the way) and get married in Ontario, where gays can also get married.
I have another comment about the woman changing her name - even though it's probably been fully discussed at this point. I've always felt pretty ambivalent about this issue and my friends have always been very surprised. I just feel that a woman has to choose between their father's name or their husband's name, but neither is really "her name". (Unless she makes up a new one.) And if she chooses to take her mother's maiden name, that's still really her grandfather's name.
In some tribal cultures, for example in Uganda, families do not pass down one name, but have several tribal names to choose from in addition to a first name of their choice (usually referred to as their Christian name). Each member of the family will have two names completely independent of the other members of their family and can be referred to as either. Interesting community perspective.
vtfem, so her husband has a last name, her father has a last name, her maternal grandfather has a last name, and I'm guessing you'd also say that her brothers have last names, but she doesn't? How were all those men lucky enough to get their very own last names while the poor bride has none?
Why is a woman who has had the same last name all her life seen as not having a last name at all, but her fiance and brothers are seen as having their own names? Do you see the sexism in your thinking?
Andrew and I discussed not getting married until everyone could, and we think that's an understandable choice, but we decided not to because shut up - that's why. I want what I want and that's it then. Besides, I only said that other shit because I didn't have a guy at the time. So, nyah-nyah-nyah-nyah-nyah-nyah.
Hello everyone! I just want to drop in a quick request as we continue this discussion; I don't have any particular advice to ad myself, but I've been thoroughly enjoying reading the creative ways in which so many people have combined their personal and political beliefs with their marriages!
My request is this: please be (reasonably) respectful towards the traditionalists. I've found myself inwardly cringing a few times, thinking to myself, "Well, I DO want a beautiful white dress when I'm married, even if it IS supposed to represent the "purity" of virginity that I no longer qualify for--Does that mean I'm no longer a member of the card carrying feminist club?"
The answer, of course, is no. Some people are fully aware of the patriarchal traditions and symbols that are perpetuated by marriage ceremonies, but choose to have them anyway. There could be any number of reasons for doing so--acquiescence to a partner's desires, respect for a parent's wishes, dreams of a fairy tale wedding. Now, I'm not saying that I support all traditions--the idea of the removal of the garter makes me shudder. But I do ask that people remember that weddings are very personal affairs, and that some feministing readers might be highly insulted to learn that some look so down upon, say, weddings in a church.
As you all are proving, there are lots of ways to get married or demonstrate commitment. Let's show respect for all of them.
I think this is an excellent point. I may personally 'look down on' weddings in a church (I wouldn't have necessarily used that term, as I don't fault anyone for wanting that, I just would be very turned off to it myself)... but I think we should all be free to do what feels right for us.
That's what feminism is to me actually, it's not always about doing the 'P.C.' thing, so much as just doing whatever you do for the right reasons. If you choose tradition, it's the right choice for you. It is when the traditions are imposed on us that bothers me.
And, traditions and rituals, like cultures, are fluid and ever-changing: you might not agree with what it's original or conventional purpose may be, but you can subvert that meaning and insert your own instead. nothing is static. i think you can take any ritual or ceremonial component and make it your own. i agree that tradition for tradition's sake without any critical analysis wouldn't be very feminist, but you can definitely take traditional aspects and incorporate your own personal or feminist meaning into them
And, traditions and rituals, like cultures, are fluid and ever-changing: you might not agree with what it's original or conventional purpose may be, but you can subvert that meaning and insert your own instead. nothing is static. i think you can take any ritual or ceremonial component and make it your own. i agree that tradition for tradition's sake without any critical analysis wouldn't be very feminist, but you can definitely take traditional aspects and incorporate your own personal or feminist meaning into them
When I was a young idiot, I married a real asshole and took his name. When we divorced I opted to keep it because I wanted my daughter and I to have the same name.
I learned that whether we take a name or are born with it, we make it what we want it to be.
The same goes for when I married a second time. I opted to take my husband's name. We discussed it at length and at first I was going to use both names, but it was impractical because his name is very long.
In the end, the name is what I made it. We're going on 20 years and I have no regrets.
I'm getting married in June and we're having a Pagan ceremony officiated by a feminist and Witch girl friend of mine (She actually helped teach doctors how to give abortions in the '70s!) despite the fact that most of my family is Mormon and conservative. I have some anxiety about it, but not enough to put me off. My boyfriend and I are getting married on the Summer Solstice as it has spiritual significance to us. I don't even think there will be an aisle per se, so I won't have to deal with anyone walking me down it. If there are any feminist Pagans or Witches reading this, I could totally use some advice on writing my ceremony. I've got all these ideas, but no cohesion.
As far as my name, I'm keeping mine. It's my mother's maiden name - she never married my father. When she was pregnant with me, she actually asked one of her best friends to marry her so she could take his last name. He said he would be honored to do so, but then explained to her what a special and powerful thing for her unborn child it would be to have her own name. (My mom's friends are all liberal, whereas she claims "apoliticalness") So, she gave me her name and I'm going to honor her (and myself) by keeping it. As far as children, my boyfriend and I decided to give any girls we have my last name and any boys we have his last name. I'm not sure if this will cause any problems, but I think it's a step in the right direction at least.
Also, thanks for the tip on including language about marriage equality in the ceremony. It'll probably piss off some people, but my boyfriend and I are paying for our own damn wedding, so we don't have to compromise with the bigots in my family.
Oh, also, I'm wearing red and gold. It's solsticey and symbolic of passion, strength, and vitality, so I'm into it. Also, lots of cultural traditions world wide have brides wearing red. Brides have only been wearing white in the West for 170 years - since Queen Victoria decided to be a rebel and wear it. And besides, white makes me look fat! Ha ha. Not that I'm falling into the "must lose weight before wedding" trap. Hey, maybe if white weren't the preferred color for weddings, women wouldn't be so obsessed with losing weight! :) Just a thought.
"Also, thanks for the tip on including language about marriage equality in the ceremony. It'll probably piss off some people, but my boyfriend and I are paying for our own damn wedding, so we don't have to compromise with the bigots in my family."
haha... AMEN!
This isn't the first time I've read about the idea of giving the girls the woman's last name and the boys the man's last name.
I'm curious as to why this is an attractive option. Children are already gender-socialized in so many ways, why add which last name you choose to give them to that?
And of course there's the matter of women being less likely to keep their last names when they marry...
hi jessica,
when i was planning my wedding (we did not marry, though) i have promised, that no bride-shaming patriarchal traditional games will be played (it is very much common here in hungary, asshole games making fun out of the bride by the guys)
but i wanted to include games, so instead:
bride & bridesmaids do change tires on the wedding vehicle (that would be my yaris, that would have been driven by me, of course) within one minute (if mclaren and ferrari can do that within 8 seconds, why couldn't a bunch of car-loving girls do it?)
and groom and groomsmen could have done the traditional hungarian "sweep up the floor, bride" game (lots of change on the floor, the bride has to show housekeeping skills, and sweep up the coins, and when she is done, the guys kick away the coins again, so she has to start all over again. yuck. very funny), just to change places.
and to represent commitment and trust:
driving in car test park - bride binded eyes, steering, handling gas, clutch and brake, groom navigating verbally, and handling gears, and then swap places. (ok, we are both car maniacs, and we have already done this a couple of times, without binded eyes...)
and of course, question and answer games, if you really know each other as well, as you think,
and again, binded eyes games:
groom sits down, and has to find out, which arm belongs to the bride
men go behind a courtain, that is lift up to show only ankles, and bride has to find out, which belongs to the groom...
I got married last summer, and I tried really hard to have my wedding and my marriage reflect my feminist values. To start, I did not have an engagement ring or a proposal. The idea of me being a coy woman waiting to be asked, and accepting only if provided with an adequate diamond (not to mention the ethical issues surrounding mining) made me uncomfortable. We decided together that we wanted to be partners and we both have (stoneless) wedding bands. I didn't particularly want a white dress, but I ended up in gold & champagne, which were close enough that no one gave me shit about it, but made me happy. My Husband and I walked down our "aisle" (it was a set of stairs, on a boat) together; I wasn't given to anyone, by anyone. We wrote our own ceremony and vows to reflect our views on marriage and emphasized love and partnership, not obedience. I kept my name. I love my name. We have discussed what name we want to give our children, and right now the consensus is that sons will take his name and daughters will be given mine.
As for resources, I love love love love love love love Offbeat Bride, by Ariel Meadow Stallings. It is half memoir, half planning guide, chronically weddings that don't fit the white strapless dress in a church kind of model. Her website (http://www.offbeatbride.com) and the ning community that sprung from it were incredible planning resources.
Congratulations. :)
of course, i would keep my own name, do a prenup (very important in hungary, courts are assholes, and we do not have wife support, only child support, but it is also meaningless, and if the man goes unemployed, no way you can get any money from the man for child support...)
and i would like to give my name to my child, but it is not possible by this far, if the father accepts the child. :( and also not possible to have the children to have mother's name if girl, father's name if boy, because siblings shall have the same family name (however, there is no absurdity, if the woman has kids from separate fathers, then the half-blood siblings will have separate family names, typical asshole patriarchism, as usual...)
Ummmm... I grew up with kids who were siblings (full-on) and the parents just alternated last names. The oldest had one, the middle had another, the youngest had the first one again, and the dog has the second one. It's not like it's illegal or something. Just uncommon.
My boyfriend has his mother's last name too.
She is in Hungary, where the laws are different. And apparently batshit insane.
CHildren can't be given the mother's last name? That is so...I don't know...completely ridiculous?
If I ever have (a) kid(s), I definitely want it(them) to have my last name.
My biggest lesson from my wedding (which I thought I knew, but the wedding gave me a wallop of a lesson in) is to please yourself first. Everybody wants all kinds of things from you on the big day, and I learned that pleasing them is no good unless you've taken care of yourself first (just like sex).
Hi there
So i feel like feministing is turning into Glamour magazine (not saying Glamour magazines are bad) but its not where id go to for feminist discussion. As a self identified queer spinster I find the institution of marriage extremely problematic AND WILL CONTINUE TO FIND IT PROBLEMATIC AND DISCREMNATORY NO MATTER WHO GETS TO BE ALLOWED TO TAKE PART IN THIS INSTITUTION.
That said Jessica, I do NOT think you are "a bad feminist" for getting married nor am I offended by your deciding to get married. I in NO WAY mean to or want to police your actions. I AM however offended and deeply disappointed with how this blog has taken about the issue of marriage. I have followed feministing since its beginning and feel that it played an important role in forming my political consciousness. As such, it has been heartbreaking to watch the direction this blog has taken, specifically with how it takes up relationship issues (not just marriage but also cohabitation).
Anyway there are alot of other people who could say what i have to say alot better then i can (see the thing below). Good luck with everything Jessica. No hard feelings.
[COMMENT EDITED FOR CONTENT]
Your post is far too long for me to read the whole thing, but if you think that something, anything, is discriminatory "no matter who is allowed to participate in it," you might need to look up the word discriminatory.
I'm guessing this document does not exist anywhere on the internet to which there can be a LINK, rather than taking up half of this space with it? It's kind of obnoxious.
Now this is just ridiculous. You could have posted a link. No one is reading this. It's hard on the eyes.
Laranicole70, I had to edit your comment for content - sorry. You're welcome to post links to articles, but you can't just copy and paste them into comments. Thanks.
The only feminist wedding tips I can offer that aren't already covered: 1) anyone who cares about an aspect has to plan and pay for that bit; 2) if you're going to have reception speeches, don't leave them all up to guys.
I have all kinds of mixed feelings about name-changing and children-naming.
I kept my last name. Changing it was never an option. Yes, the name is my father's name. But it's been my name since the second I was born. It's a part of my identity. To change it would have felt like abandoning part of that identity.
My middle name is my mom's last name. I have always liked that. But now (I'm 32) people tend to think it's my maiden name and that my last name is my married name. This makes me frustrated, probably unfairly, with the newer tradition of moving your last name to your middle name. It makes me very hesitant to repeat my name pattern with my own kids, especially I have daughters.
I believe name choices are extremely personal. Maybe it's because they're so personal, though, that we take others' choices personally. I take it personally when women choose to change their names. I debate internally whether I should or shouldn't. But rightly or wrongly, I do take it personally. I take personally implication that my husband and I are less of a unit because we have different last names.
This creates a whole new set of issues when thinking about kids. My husband is the very last person in his extended family with his last name. It's very important to him to give our kids his last name. He is willing to give them a hyphenated name though, if it's important to me. If I could ignore the societal context, then I'd have no problem saying, "Sure, let's use your name because I've got a million relatives in my large Catholic extended family with my last name." But even though I'd like to do that for him, I feel real pain about reinforcing the notion that children should get their father's last name as a default.
Good thing we don't have kids yet, I suppose.
It's a rough topic. Forces you to consider what obligations we have or should have to the greater feminist good.
Kat, why do you say, "yes, the name is my father's name." It sounds so self-defeating. Would your husband dismiss his name that way? Do you want your daughter to think of herself as not having her own name? Wouldn't you be disappointed to hear her say what you've just said?
Interesting. I didn't mean it that way but can see exactly how/why you read it that way.
I was saying "Yes, it's my father's name," because that is the response I always get when I tell people I kept my name or want my kids to have my name. I get, "It's just your father's name so you're still supporting the ptrriarchy" or some version of it. So my "Yes, it's my father's name" is really, "Yes, I'm aware that my name is my father's name and yes, I know that I got that name through the same tradition I'm rejecting." It's just me being preemptive.
But that's also exactly why I want my kids to have a hyphenated name. I want their name to be from both their parents. But I don't know if that's too selfish given that my name already lives on in the next generation in my family while my husband's will not without his kids.
no bouquet toss (it is only trend for a couple of years in hungary, we love to channel american customs...)
instead of that: chinese hot-air lampions lifted up in the air or flower candles down by the river
no introduction as mr-mrs, instead of hungarian hymne at the beginning of the dinner, and second-hymne at the end of the dinner (very traditionally hungarian)
i insisted on engagement ring :) just because i loooooovvveee diamonds and jewellery
instead of big wedding, have small (in hungary, average wedding costs about 1-3 million huf, which is about 7-21 times more, than the average net monthly income. so it is very expensive...)
i just wanted to go to the mayor office, do the whole thing, and get over with it, but my fiancee insisted on having huge wedding with all relatives etc... i didn't see any value about the expensive fuss, when we can do a down payment for house from that money.
dress... friend brought specially for me raw white silk shantung from china, that would have been done by another friend into a nice cocktail dress. and that's all.
and of course dj instead of band, as it is cheaper.
My partner and I have a domestic partnership. What confuses me though is on any NYS document, they still only have boxes for "single", "married" or "divorced". So I still am considered single, my partnership illegitimate, even though it is within the bounds of what is considered hetero-normative. Which is fine by me. Obviously my choices don't bow to wanting to be normal- ha ha.
That being said, even though I have no desire to get married and hate nearly everything about it, I would never judge someone else who did. I think everyone SHOULD be allowed to make that choice, just as I think the gov't should recognize all couples, gay straight, married or not.
But I had thought about if I DID have a wedding, what it might be like. I wondered if it's possible to have a wedding that in no way resembles anything traditional or religious. And though there probably isn't, there are still some key factors that should change. I have a problem with the walking down the aisle thing. The woman comes to the man while he just stands there. Whether you have someone "give you away" or not, there's still the idea that the male is receiving the female like the traditional property transaction from which marriage is based. I always thought that instead of one walking down the aisle in the vertical way, both me and my partner would have a horizontal aisle (we would obviously not be in any kind of church, so this is possible), and would both walk towards each other & meet in the middle. I think it's a strong symbol of the equality in our relationship and that we both chose the other from our own free will.
My partner and I are planning our wedding right now. We've decided to have a surprise wedding as a way of getting around most of the BS and stress that surrounds weddings.
We tossed around not getting married at all, or eloping but realized that by this point (we've been together for quite a while) the ceremony is really for everyone else more than us.
It's going to be far less expensive - our cover story is a birthday, so we're holding the whole thing at a restaurant and the cost of food and drinks contributes towards the cost of renting the space. For me this is HUGE - I do not want to get caught up in the wedding-industrial complex.
I live in Canada where gay marriage is legal so the thought of including a piece about same-sex marriage didn't really occur to me. However, when approaching the officiant I made sure my gendered language was neutral because I would be uncomfortable being married by anyone who had any objections to same-sex marriage.
There are a few things I've been pretty firm about that I think are based on my feminist perspective:
I will take his last name, which is kind of a tricky thing for me and not a decision I ever thought I would make. We did discuss choosing a new last name together, but he change his last name already to the name of his adopted father, who passed away when he was 19, and he feels quite attached to it. My last name on the other hand, I actively dislike and can't wait to be rid of so it's a bit of a compromise.
I think you are me :)
especially to the diamond part, the "our" wedding part, the (trying to) skip the whole engagement thing part, and the knee length dress part. and, obviously, the last name part :)
it sounds like it will be a fun time. i WISH i cuold pull off a surprise wedding... congrats!
Is it really that hard to put bread together with stuff in-between? Someone unable to fix their own uncooked meal isn't really in a position to judge anyone.
My husband and I got married at the courthouse. We both had plain gold bands, and I wore a forest green dress that was given to me by a co-worker who was cleaning out her closet at the time. Afterward, we ate pizza for dinner, lol. I also kept my last name, which I've since noticed makes a lot of men either uncomfortable, or outright hostile toward me.
I am a proud feminist and was married in November 2008. My husband & I made each wedding decision personally as partners and declined to think about tradition as an essential part of the whole process, though established wedding customs were our starting off point in the planning process.
1) We changed the ceremony language to be inclusive of our diverse friends & family members of all sexualities and backgrounds.
2) I had my best guy friend on my side of the wedding party, and my husband had his best girl friend on his side.
3) I was lucky enough to have both my parents walk me down the aisle.
4) We ditched the garter / bouquet toss in lieu of more party time on the dance floor (with our incredible DJ, who rapped the entire Humpty Dance!).
5) I added my husband's last name to mine without the hyphen, so now I have two last names.
I also found the BEST website to plan for unique weddings - www.offbeatbride.com. There are so many resources to help create your own individual wedding, and the community of women & men that are featured on the site are inspirational.
Good luck!
I was married 27 years ago in a lovely white silk, off the shoulder dress designed by Athanasous + Glasgow - I wore a 100% silk tulle veil affixed to a tiny circlet of ribbon rose buds. I carried a large bouquet of gardenias with trailing ivy and satin ribbons intertwined with pearls. My dear father gave me away, while my mother watched with tears in her eyes. I took my husbands name - where I end - he begins... and then we meet again. We have one child who bears OUR name. It was and has been lovely and I am so glad I was young then, back when it was ok to take your husband's name with honor and without angst.
Lucy Stone kept her own name in 1855. It was a hard fight, but she (and her husband) realized why it was so impotant. You were married in about 1982, more than one-hundred-and-twenty-five years after Lucy Stone's marriage.
It sounds like you got exactly the wedding you wanted. That's wonderful.
Jessica and the other women posting in this thread would like to have exactly the wedding they want, too.
The wedding you had was/is the default wedding in our culture, which means that anyone who wants something different has to discuss and hash out their plans with some or a great deal of detail. I wouldn't call it 'angst' - it's just making a lot of conscious choices. If you have the default wedding, you don't have to analyze anything; what you call 'angst' is actually analysis and critical thinking.
As for name changes, I'm in my 30s, and plenty of my similarly-aged friends have mothers who kept their birth names when they got married in the late 60s and early 70s, which I believe is before you got married. The question of keeping or changing your name has been a conscious one for quite some time now.
You must be so proud to have done exactly what was expected of you without any difficulty or resistance. I'm so glad you can extrapolate from your experience to understand the difficulty that exists for people who aren't satisfied with perpetuating the current gender inequalities.
Iron My Shirt!
That's original.
It seems that the stress involved in making sure the wedding is as un-wedding-like as possible guarantees that it won`t be a joyous time! It seems to me like wanting to have a batmitzvah, but not wanting any references to Judaism or coming of age.
Why not just go to the courthouse and fill out all the docs to become the equivalent of civil partners? At least then you won`t have to inspect every aspect for ritual purity, or have anyone assume that your relationship is traditional and patriarchal.
I wish you a happy life, but I can`t imagine anyone having a good time at the "not-really-a-wedding". I hope you pass out a lengthy policy document and behavior guide to all who are invited to avoid misunderstandings, and possibly have guests sign a memorandum of understanding affirming the doctrinal differences between this and other "weddings".
Yes, I`m being snarky, but this just seems so forced and rationalized that I don`t see the point. I`m an athiest who loves the splendor of the Catholic Mass....I can`t imagine trying to create my own by removing all the religious elements and still enjoying it. I just have to realize that that is a part of life that is no longer appropriate or honest for me.
I have been with my partner for 39 years, unmarried and happy, with kids hyphenating their names (which they love, as they sound more exotic).
I don't get the sense Jessica is trying to have a non-wedding wedding... it seems to me, instead, she's trying to take an institution that is problematic, but to which she still has some emotional/spiritual/etc. attachment, and transform it into something very much her own, that she can enjoy and be comfortable with.
Weddings aren't an all-or-nothing thing, any more than religion, or politics, or feminism, or anything is. And, arguably, the best way to change a problematic institution is from the inside, rather than by completely circumventing it. Having a feminist wedding, by this line of thinking, is a great way to refute the ridiculous assertions by many conservatives that, for example, people who support marriage equality are somehow "anti-marriage." Tough to realistically call someone "anti-marriage" when she's, you know, PLANNING HER OWN DAMN WEDDING.
That's great that not marrying worked for you, and that you are happy. But for those of us who choose to get married, some traditions are just too silly/offensive/not us to be bothered with.
One way to name the children is to name any boys with the husband's last name and any girls with the wife's. Or you can switch it around and do boys with the woman's name and girl's with the man's.
Interesting post. I don’t really care about marriage, to me it’s just a piece of paper but if a girl I was with wanted it ,and dreamed about the perfect wedding etc. I would not spoil it for her. I would defiantly not ad my last name to hers even with a hyphen it’s still her taking my last name and that smacks of me writhing my name on my property. I don’t want to affect or change her in any way I’m there as her mate her companion not to change who she is. I would be sick to my stomach to see her sign her name like that. I might however take her last name. For the same reason another poster talked about adding her mother’s name on to hers as a hyphen at marriage, as a big fuck you! To the patriarchy.
You should trash your dress afterwards! I think it's such a cool way to celebrate your partnership - and the photos that result from it are priceless. I'm not getting married; I will probably have some sort of commitment ceremony instead, but I totally plan on trashing my dress after.
Acutally, I'm into the custom from 100 years ago or so where the new wife wore her wedding dress to all formal occasions for the first year or so. We could update that to include the husband/other partner to wear their wedding outfit, too. I believe it was an upperclass custom. Depending on what the dress looked like, it might need some alteration (lose the train, eg).
I don't like the trash the dress idea. I would rather donate it so it can used again. I'm into the use again thing. Plus, trashing the dress has turned into its own wedding industrial complex phenomenon.
Ok, I'm going to put my issues with marriage aside for a second (sorta) and ask you to go to Canada to get married. If the straight couples here did that, and our money went to a country that supports us lesbians, maybe that would send a message. Or, you know, don't get frackin' married. Sorry. Tried to hold it in.
I did not want to do a bouquet or garter toss at all. We skipped the garter all together and instead of throwing my bouquet, I took the mic from the DJ and presented it to my grandparents who have been married for over 60 years. They mean the world to me and considering they're in their 80's, just plain awesome that they were able to come! It was so much better than making a spectacle of all the girls in the room.
Sorry if that was a repeat of anyone else's idea!
I thought a lot about the geometry of the wedding ceremony. The isle of a church can be interpreted as the birth canal with the altar representing the womb. Marriage is a lot about fertility and fertility was central to old religions which were supplanted and incorporated into Judeo-Christian-Islamic religions. The isle can bee seen as the birth canal and the penis, the merging of the two. It also divides "his" and "her" sides, which I think is weird. I opted instead for a circle which could be adapted for larger weddings by incorporating rows like ripples. We will enter from one side of the circle, move around to the "front" of the circle, enter into the circle, and conduct a ceremony within the circle that incorporates everyone. He will not be there, fully developed in himself, waiting for my father to bring me to him. Both our parents will be situated closely to the "front" so we can both honor them during the ceremony, but no one is giving anyone away. Also, the officiants are female and male, a couple whom we view as a model for our marriage. I cannot validate any ceremony that joins feminine-masculine which is presided over by the masculine alone.
Good luck on your wedding planning, Jessica!
I realize this thread is getting long, but I wanted to bring up one point regarding marriage ambivalence that (I haven't seen) raised yet: The institutional necessity of marriage when you and your partner are from different countries. I was sure I'd never get married because of my objections to the institution (and sharing a life without being married is very common in my home country; fascinating that English doesn't even really have a name for it!) - but I also never knew I'd fall in love with an American.
I wish we could have done what Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt are doing, but I'm just the average person, and in the end I figured that I could do more for marriage equality as a happy person being with my partner than as a heartbroken bitter ex-expat. I realize how *extremely* privileged I am to have had that choice, and it makes me beyond angry.
I have a lot of conservative acquaintances who feel vindicated by how 'even you outspoken feminists just want to get married in the end', and I always point out the difficulties that international couples face and how it's made me and my husband even more passionate about marriage equality. (Always puts a sour look on their faces).
Depending on who you interact with, expect to have your choice to keep your name disrespected. It's an uphill battle to keep your name, even after you kept it. Sadly.
I forgot to mention that I am keeping my last name, and though we are not planning to have children, in the event that that changes they will have my last name. I have agreed to allow any male offspring to change his name to his fathers at maturity. Something few women know is that we pass on more DNA... All of the mitochondrial DNA comes from the mother and is what allows us to accomplish cellular respiration. In other words, our mothers gave us all "the breath of life". Our society has had it backwards and the fact that most children are only named after fathers (who don't get pregnant, give birth, or engage in many of the other countless sacrifices women make to create life) is a large part of the reason that families tend to prefer and spoil male children. It is also the reason why my friend was abandoned to die in China when she was born. Jump on me if you need to but women who go along with this tradition (taking and passing on his last name) are selling out themselves, their children, and all women and girls. Why?
"I have agreed to allow any male offspring to change his name to his fathers at maturity."
How nice of you. Would girls be "allowed" to change their names to their father's, or would you try to stop them, even after maturity?
Inte