Good and bad news regarding LGBT rights and religion came out of Charlotte, North Carolina this weekend. A milestone was achieved in the Presbyterian church as leaders ratified a proposal to reverse their denomination's ban on gay pastors and elders in the area. While the ban stood for several decades, the civil debate ended this weekend with a 133-124 vote. Amen.
In the meantime, Pam's House Blend gives us a rundown of a new initiative that Charlotte and Raleigh Roman Catholic dioceses are launching called a "Courage ministry" to "'help' gay and lesbians pray away same-sex attractions." Pam's contention is right on that the News and Observer piece on the Courage ministry is completely warped and, if anything, supportive of its efforts. Read more.
And in Michigan, the folks who aren't prayin' away their gay are apparently forcing their "radical gay agenda" on Christians, according to a new video called "Silencing Christians" that was thankfully just rejected by a Michigan TV station. (After the Human Rights Campaign stepped.) They even go as far to imply that Christians are the ones who are victims of violence for merely "sharing the gospel." Check it out, but prepare to seethe.
UPDATE: Thanks to commenter AndyLC, it looks like HRC were not the ones who were truly responsible for the pulling of the program but GLAAD and other Michigan activists.
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apparently the good lord giveth and the good lord taketh away. LOL! Myopia must be so fun.
It was NOT the HRC that stepped in. Read this:
http://www.bilerico.com/2009/02/does_hrc_have_the_be_the_anti-christian.php
Sometimes the Internet is just right.
How DARW we offend their sacred, deeply held beliefs! We have to stop oppressing them, the ronery and poor christians that are just sharing the gospel and of course not trying to take away our rights. We are so blind, it's obvious they don't have any privilege, the opposed: They are so oppressed by the evil liberals, feminists and homosexuals.
Sometimes I just want to tell them to GTFO my life.
In the video, some lady talks about how we don't know the effects that stories like "Two Princes" and "Heather has two Mommies" on children. What does she think the effect will be? There is no sex in these books. They are simply classic hetero stories that have been okay.. with two gay people instead of straight people. Is it really THAT much of a difference to change the sex of one of the characters? Are children really going to lose the "moral thinking" part of their brain and go crazy and wreak havoc after adopting the oh-so-horrible homosexual lifestyle?
These people need to stop contradicting their faith and let God judge, and stop being hypocrites and acting like their words don't silence anybody. They can be bigots all they want, But at the end of the day, that's all the constitution lets them do: hate homosexuality and express it, not use religion as a means to try to stop the gays from indoctrinating our children. What do they call taking their kids to church every Sunday since they opened their eyes? I guess they just call it "teaching our children the truth."
Vanessa, thanks so much for highlighting the great work at the Charlotte presbytery. As a queer feminist ordination candidate in the Presbyterian church (who grew up in western North Carolina), I really appreciate that you mentioned this. Thus far 6 presbyteries have 'flipped' their votes from anti-gay ordination to affirming gay ordination beginning with the one in Western North Carolina! Amen, indeed.
*facepalm* Whenever I read about Catholics outside of Missouri, I'm suddenly reminded what the Church really stands for. I'm hoping that science will finally prove beyond a layman's doubt that homosexuality is polygenic, and that people can control their sexuality as well as people can control their height. After the whole Middle Ages/ Renaissance fiasco, the Church has been a little more accepting of science. Of course, with this new Pope, I don't hold my breath.
Of course, though, people can control the ways they express their sexuality to a large degree. That is different from controlling your sexual attraction, of course. But then again that is the crucial difference for Catholic teaching on homosexuality, which has taken pains to say that its origin(s) are unknown.
Did anyone else find it hillarious that the narrator of this video is Janet Parshall (partial)?
Contrary to the inaccurate description of it-- which is sadly as per usual here on Feministing when it comes to just about anything Catholic --
Courage is a unique ministry group in that it does NOT encourage people to try to change to heterosexuals. It does NOT encourage trying to "cure" oneself of same sex attraction--in fact it advises against such things.
Its goal is to help people live lives of chastity, which in traditional Church theology is something ALL people are called to, different in its expression according to their state in life.
Within the confines of traditional RC teaching, this group is very positive, anti-shame and has helped many to live out their faith with dignity.
We may disagree with the idea that those who are same-sex attracted are not called to married life and thus a particular expression of sexuality. Hell, you can reject the entire Catholic teaching on the place of sexual expression and identity in a person's life (but, only if you know what it actually teaches, which most people don't seem to)...
But I think there should be respect for the fact that some religious people believe that sexuality is a powerful expression of the self that can and should be managed ethically, which includes abstaining for part or even all of your life.
And, for pete's sake at least don't make the consistently anti-intellectual mistake of not knowing what the thing is about, and spreading misinformation. (Yep, Feminsting, I love you but this is a constant error made by your eds.)
People do your own research, and decide for yourself. I think it's good to remember that there is a definite tension between critique of religious ideas and respect for the ways in which people *voluntarily* choose to understand and live it.
saintcatherine, as a fellow Catholic feminst, while I totally agree with your clarification of what Courage does (at least, thankfully, it doesn't try to de-gay OR ostracize folks!), I still think the motives of Courage and the dioceses that promote it are worthy of being questioned. Courage maintains the status quo of discrimination against GLBT folks (and as far as I know, like most Catholic teaching on sexuality and gender identity, completely ignore the B and the T) and identifies them as "intrinsically disordered."
I often refer GLBT Catholic folks to Dignity or New Ways Ministries, since they start from a place of honoring GLBT folks as intrinsically good, rather than disordered, and call for more humane and just Church teachings on sexuality and identity.
So, yeah, I agree that the info on Courage needs to be updated, but I think the program should continue to be questioned as well.
Thanks for your reply.
I do not think that Courage ignores bisexuals. From looking at the website, and knowing two people who have experience with the organisation, I think that bisexuals are considered the same as those whose attraction is only to one gender. Perhaps they could do a better job on their links in actually mentioning bisexuals, but from my knowledge of a bisexual Catholic friend she is able to discuss these things without a problem.
As far as the "T" transgender goes, I agree that I haven't seen much at all in this ministry, or in the documents of the Church for that matter. But then again, is that perhaps due to the fact that they are different?
I mean, I myself have always found it a bit strange how people who are transgender are lumped --or lump themselves -- together with GLB's. I think that it is an overlapping experience in terms of the larger communities, and certainly in the fight against discrimination. And the manifestations and causes, if that is important, may overlap.... But ultimately being transgender is not synonymous with being gay. (I am using "gay as a catchall for G-L-B here.)
You said that you refer people to Dignity, which does have a totally different take on the matter, but I think you were missing my point. For 8Catholics who believe and want to practice the traditional* teachings of the Church on the role of sexuality in our human lives, Dignity will not work. They reject the teachings, not just on gays, but on women in the priesthood, birth control, etc. They are far more political (I do not believe that Courage gets involved itself with issues like gay marriage, etc.) and issue "statements" about happenings around the world at teh commuinity and diocesan level. I guess my point is, that they are two organisations with dfferent purposes, save for the desire to support Catholics whow are gay and their families. Their support, along with their ideology, is different.
Ultimately, my post was just to point out the ridiculous reocurrence of off-handed, inaccurate and usually insulting comments about traditional CAtholicism. Which, I understand is not going to be supported by most here, but I expect a little more of an effort to at least meet traditional religion on its own terms in order to mount a decent critique. The "intrinsically disordered" phrase, for example, is up for critique, but most people just reject it because they think it means that the Church says gay people are messed up. Which it doesn't, but it says other things about the role of sexuality and its expression that most people don't ever bother to understand.
I have gone on too long, as usual. I did want to ask you: Could you expand on how you see Courage as an organisation that "maintains the status quo of discrimination against GLBT folks"? I could guess at your meaning but wanted to be clear.
"Courage is a unique ministry group in that it does NOT encourage people to try to change to heterosexuals. It does NOT encourage trying to "cure" oneself of same sex attraction--in fact it advises against such things.
Its goal is to help people live lives of chastity..."
Oh, okay. So they're not suggesting that gay people should try to become heterosexual, they're just saying they shouldn't have sex... EVER. Never ever. Not ever until they grow old and die.
I can't help but feel that that's not much better.
LOL...
The thing is, they have that prescription for lots of Catholics, not just SSACatholics. (also, chastity just means expressing your sexuality in a manner appropriate for your vocation at thismoment... so..) Unmarried Catholics are not to have sex, not even if they stay unmarried forever.
Okay, so what would be the means of expressing their sexuality appropriate to their vocation for a married gay couple?
(Also, it seems a little disingenuous to say "But LOTS of people aren't allowed to have sex before they get married." when that's followed with a "P.S. We don't think you should be allowed to get married.")
It's true that the Catholic Church teaches chastity for all people until marriage. But believers in the Diocese in question are trying to outlaw gay marriage, so it is different treatment for straight believers and LGBT ones.
Just like the teaching that no sexual attraction is a sin, but hetero sex is sinful outside of marriage. It is religiously justified within a marriage though, although for LGBT folks, it is never, never OK.
It's equal treatment... to a point.
Further comment on the PC(USA) votes:
It is so exciting to hear of another presbytery speaking up for equality! It is important to know that this is a national struggle, and we still have a long way to go. If any of you out there happen to be Presbyterians, or know a Presbyterian, find out when your Presbytery is going to vote on Amendment 08-B (you can find out by calling the Presbytery office). Find all the friends you can and turn out to support equality! (Note: You must be an Elder commissioner or a Minister to speak at the proceedings, so if you know anyone who meets that description, now would be an excellent time to give them a call and let them know how you feel about the amendment).
And AlexMC, best of luck to you- you have a great deal of supporters! I will be praying for your candidacy. It is great to know there is another PC(USA) reader here.
I'm not a member of the PC(USA) but I attend a Presbyterian church, and it makes me so happy that the Charlotte presbytery did this!
I watched about 5 minutes of the video -- apparently this one book speaks for all gays and lesbians ever and this one book explains all the goals and aspirations of queer politics. Mmmm . . . simple-minded-ness and disrespect.
i was raised in the presbyterian faith, and over the years, i've come and gone a few times from the church over this issue. (i can't seem to permanently decide whether my beliefs are better served fighting from the inside or the outside, so i waver between the presbyterians and the UUs.) so this THRILLS the daylights out of me! WOOOOT!
alexmc, i hope you get ordained ASAP! best of luck! WOOOT!
I got to minute five before I lost my lunch...
Don't these people have some sort of internal monitoring system that alerts them to the copious amount of hypocrisy contained in their video? Don't they see that they use the exact same tactics that are laid out in the 1989 book? Uuuuugh.
So, I tortured myself for an hour today and watched this whole thing... however since it is an hour and I could write pages on what I think of it, I don't want to bore you. Here's the abbreviated version for your reading pleasure:
"Traditional values..." do they mean slavery? Or polygyny? Women and children as chattel?
TJ Morrison, student offended by video at school stating that homosexuality is natural. He sues. Other students tell him, "It takes a lot of guts to do this." Huh? You're in the majority, a conservative white male in a conservative white town. It takes a lot of guts to do what, support the status quo? They're full of it.
It's a "lifestyle." Yeah. People "choose" to be gay so they can be hated, discriminated against, threatened, beaten and maybe even killed. Bullshit. There are gay people in countries like Saudi Arabia, obviously because it's inborn, and there the penalty is death. Yes, people "choose" it, because it's fun to risk your life.
The girl in the video who says "Jesus saved me from homosexuality" obviously has emotional problems from a bad childhood, and is probably afraid of going to hell, since I'm sure that's what her new found friends told her, she's now no longer gay.
They equate being homosexual to smoking, and "giving" up homosexuality to giving up smoking.
"There is violence against Christians." Yeah, the majority is being oppressed by the minority. This one guy says there's been ten church shootings this year, implying that Christians are under attack. How many of those were religiously motivated? The one in Tennessee wasn't. It was at a UU church and the guy who attacked them did so because they supported homosexuals and were for Obama. How many of those shootings were domestically motivated, where it was something personal?
"Men having sex with men are limited to," get this, "sodomy." Hmm... has he heard of oral? LMAO.
"All crimes are hate crimes," so says the white male. Wow. Where did these pepole buy their logic? Wal-Mart? I suppose they can't understand the difference between a crime that is motivated by personal spite, insanity, or by some other factor such as religion or sexuality. Oh, but wait, they can understand the fact that they're being "oppressed" because they're Christian. I wonder if they consider that a "hate" crime. I'm sure they do. Idiots.
The "homosexual machine" is corrupting your kids! Pro-gay high school groups are tolerant and ruining religion! "I believe in tolerance" says this white guy, but wrote an article to the paper entitled 'homosexual agenda is wicked.' {sarcasm}Yeah, that's tolerant. {/sarcasm}
During the commercial breaks, they're soliciting for money. No surprise there.
"The first amendment means that no government should have the right to bind someone else's conscience." Wow. He gets it, but believes it only applies to him and his fellow Christians. LOLz
Their understanding of transgendered people is EPIC FAIL.
Notice at the end, when they have the "family oriented" clips of children, there are a group of girls and a group of boys playing tug-of-war. Guess who wins? The boys, of course.
And to cap it all off, "It's all Obama's fault!"
""Men having sex with men are limited to," get this, "sodomy." Hmm... has he heard of oral? LMAO."
I'm not sure if it applies to how he was using it, but the term sodomy can also be used to describe oral sex (along with anal sex and bestiality).
I couldn't watch past 5 minutes of that video. Yeesh. There is no such thing as the Gay Agenda! We do not meet in bars and talk about how we want porn on basic cable and how we want to have homosexual sex in front of their children.
*seethe*