Courtney was on The O'Reilly Factor tonight, taking on O'Reilly's sexist statements against Helen Thomas.
If you missed it, it will be on again at 11pm Eastern (and if anyone can record and send to us, we'll love you forever!). Predictably, C rocked it.
But here's the kicker: O'Reilly kept bringing up Sarah Palin and how women's groups were silent when there were sexist attacks about her (as if that had anything to do with why Courtney was there, but whatevs).
O'Reilly even told Courtney that if she could prove that she ever criticized the sexism levied against Sarah Palin, he would apologize. WELL, Courtney has not only taken issue with sexism against Palin in the past - she's actually called out O'Reilly himself on it! So, Bill - when will Courtney be getting that apology? Why don't we ask him?
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ha! i can't wait to watch this. you ladies are amazing.
No, no, Mr. O'Reilly, you've still got plenty of "ists" out there to embody. Agist, sexist, racist. Too many to keep track of? I think I'll just boil it down to one nice neat label: bigot.
Way to go, Courtney. You always conduct yourself so well. I'll look forward to seeing you. I'd be rather nervous going up against such a strong personality on his home turf on television. You really put it out there on the line, and I salute you.
I've resigned myself to academia, so, unfortunately or fortunately, whatever, I do not have this kind of popular pulpit to challenge the status quo. Regardless, I don't think anyone should try to take on O'Reilly. I don't think anyone should try to legitimize these people. I mean, if you put yourself on the opposite side of him in an argument, it implies that he is legitimate opposition. He's not, he's pathetic, powerful, but pathetic. Use your audience or connections to challenge him in more meaningful ways. Eh, I don't know.
Very few things can convince me to watch The O'Reilly Factor, but this is definitely one of them. I'm sure that apology will be coming sometime around the 12th of Never.
When Bill O'Reilly apologizes I will finally be crowned Queen of the Lollipop Guild.
That sounds delicious.
LOVE IT!
Of course, the odds that Mr. Falafel will actually eat his crow are about 100-1 in my book.
I agree. He's got some sort of poll, as well. Like it matters. He has no intention of apologizing.
Oh man, does the show stream live online? I hope so. I just watched the talking points from tonight, I'm not familiar with the Fox News website (duh) so I don't know if the video is even up yet.
I just wanted to point out the two embarrassingly sexist commercials that come before and after each video:
The previously mentioned Vermont Teddy Bear commercial, and (this is so classy) the "here's-a-gift-that-will-really-make-her-take-her-clothes-off" Pajamagram commercial.
Good old Fox. They'll never let me down.
Ah! I hate that commercial! Like women are so stupid, they'll think it took some dude months to order something off the internet.
Oh snap this shit just got real!
I just watched the segment featuring Courtney and she did great! O'Reilly was patronizing as ever, among other things.
Damn, Billo was Mad, lol. He made sure to tell Courtney that she was being used and NOBODY defended Palin when sexist comments were made about her... Looks like Billo didn't Google Courtney well enough.
Does he EVER do his homework? Feministing was all over sexism like polyester on a hot day, and it's not like anyone here would let a woman twist. No one deserves sexism.
Wow.
Watching that was a reminder as to why I NEVER watch "The O'Reily Factor" and why Courtney is awesome.
Seriously, props to you for being dignified, well-spoken (when you managed to get a word in, that is) and all-around amazing.
You were wonderful Courtney! You remained so composed throughout, which is more than I can say for him. He really started to lose it at the end.
I wanted to reach through the TV and strangle him when he called you a "brave woman" or whatever. I was waiting for a head pat and pinch on the cheek.
wait, where is Courtney Martin on the website?
what video?
Only half of the segment (the half without Courtney) is posted on the website, last time I checked. The longer video is on youtube, posted below. =)
Mr. O'Reilly, not only did you not do your research on Courtney Martin, but may I also introduce you to Renee Martin and Melissa McEwan, both whom kept running watches on the sexism against Sarah Palin?
Has the man never met the internet?
Courtney,
You totally kick ass. If it were me, I probably would have taken a swing at him and God knows that's just because I'm an unattractive, angry women.
p.s. I thought it was hilarious that under Courtney's name it just said "Feminist" Never mind your job title or description. I bet O'Reilly thought he was turning you into Hester Prynne with that label.
Courtney, you are characteristically poised and awesome.
It's up on youtube, though under a revolting title:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTm45dhmqMQ
Yeah, that's a nasty title. I think I'm going to call myself a libtard, though. Cool name. But really, he didn't 'fry' her. She was amazing!
Yea, he raised his voice for no reason and people consider that "frying"? Okayyy
I commented:
The part where Billo tells Courtney she never defended Palin publicly.... If anyone who enjoyed this actually did their homework, they would know she herself defended Palin against sexism twice, even against a comment made from *gasp* Bill O'Reilly. I won't even get into the title being about free speech, as people all seem to ignorantly agree free speech = saying whatever you want no matter what consequences it may have and whose freedoms it takes away.
We are womenfeminists, hear us roar write scathing complaint letters.
aw...html failure.
I watched it, but I had to sit through about 5 minutes of his obnoxious attitude before Courtney was on. Anyway, you were amazing, Courtney!
Courtney: Why didn't you tell Billo that you DID frequently write about Sarah Palin and condemn those who used sexist stereotypes against her?
Either way great job!
She couldn't, because he wouldn't shut the fuck up long enough for her to speak!
Yeah, Billo can't keep his mouth shut for more than three seconds to let anyone get a word in edge wise. I can't stand people who interrupt me when I'm talking and as such I wouldn't go on his show if they paid me. Well... maybe if they paid me a lot. LOL
Wow, Courtney, you rule. If it had been me, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to rip him a new one. Not that it would change anyone's mind or help our cause, it's just a physical response to the insane level of his hypocrisy and blind privilege.
Oh, and there were 17 times, by my count, that Feministing called out sexism directed at Palin. I'm not sure about WMC, but I'm willing to bet it's a similar number. That's an awful lot for the few days anyone had access to her.
Also, "using you"? Does he think that you write from a little cage in the bowels of the Feminazi Industrial Complex Building?
Oh, that was a piece of awesome! I am so happy that Courtney stood her ground and O'Reilly totally owes her an apology.
And the witch thing is hilarious. As a witch myself, I can only hope to be as awesome as Helen Thomas when I grow up!
Comment on the YouTube video! Spam the jerk titler person with Courtney Martin praises!
Falafel O'Reilly is such a wanker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tJjNVVwRCY
"Shut the music off!"
"WE GOOGLED YOU!"
rofl.....
I know! That is totally my new response to anything smart anyone says in response to my stupid arguments that obfuscate the point.
First of all, the Wicked Witch of the East is the one that gets smashed by Dorothy's house. :)
Secondly, if you watch the original comments, Bill was commenting about Helen's voice. Courtney kept talking about her appearance. To me, Courtney was perpetuating the very stereotype that she seemed to be decrying: That there is something wrong with a witch's appearance. What if witches were stereotypically beautiful(and many are on TV and the big screen)? I guess the reality is that there is a movie character named "The Wicked Witch of the West" and Bill thought Helen sounded like her. If Bill had made comments about her physical appearance, this would be a different story and he would definitely owe her a heartfelt "I'm sorry".
As far as the demand for an apology...he gave one. An apology is an explanation or a justification of your actions. And he did exactly that. Perhaps we all don't agree with his justification, but he did give one.
Concerning the apology that Bill offered Courtney...if the two pieces linked to in this article are the only one's that she wrote in Sarah Palin's defense, then I think that Bill might have a point. Now, I want to reserve my final judgment until I see the interview again...the youtube video isn't working for me. I thought that Bill was saying that Courtney didn't come to Sarah's defense when SNL made fun of her appearance or when being attacked by the media. If that's what the apology hinges on (and if those two articles are the only ones that Courtney wrote in defense of Sarah) then I don't see the need for that apology. Because neither of Courtney's articles addressed either one of Bill's points.
Courtney started out with “…woman as witches: it’s the oldest card in the book”
Bill: “I wasn’t saying women as witches, I was saying her VOICE was like the witch of the East.”
O’Reilly actually said (about Helen’s voice) “It’s like the wicked witch of the East. … If I were Obama I would have poured water on her, and she’d dissolve.” If he had stopped with the first half of his statement, I could buy that he was just talking about her voice (which is still a problem). But he didn’t. He said that she would melt, implying that she IS a witch, voice AND body. In the Wizard of Oz, the wicked witches don’t conform to conventional beauty standards. O’Reilly didn’t say she was like Glinda, the good (read: pretty) witch of the North. No, he invoked the image of the ugly witch. Bill did not explicitly say that she LOOKED like an ugly witch, but he implied that she was one in order to invalidate her status as a journalist.
Courtney: “You invoked the image of a witch to describe [her].”
Bill: “The position of your group is that I called her a witch in a serious manner to denigrate her appearance.”
He clearly doesn’t get it. When you try to discredit a person’s argument by attacking the person but not the argument, as in how her voice sounds or her appearance, it is an ad hominem attack. Bill O’Reilly is full of racist, sexist, ageist ad hominem arguments. Basically, full of shit. Unfortunately, what Courtney didn’t do is explain how his ad hominem attacks don’t make his victims look bad, they make him look like a crap journalist. I hope someone is able to show him how women in power positions have been discredited by attacking their appearances instead of their work.
As for his “apology” or explaining his position, you can’t “apologize” and then say the same thing again. At 9:13 in, “So I can’t make a joke about her voice being on the same level.. and if you do match up the voices, ladies and gentlemen, you will see they are very close.” Wow, just wow.
Bill: “Sarah Palin was criticized on SNL by her appearance and her voice patterns.”
Finally, SNL didn’t make fun of Palin’s appearance. Tina Fay dressed like her, but that was not what was being satirized. Politicians SHOULD be attacked for their policies. The MSM DID use sexism against Palin, which was caught over and over again here on Feministing. Courney may not have been leading the charge, but the sexism wasn’t invisible to her.
I'm fairly sure that when Papa Bear said "criticize the sexism leveled at Palin," he was using "sexism" in the right-wing code word sense, where it means, "not giving Sarah Palin a free pass on everything because she has a vagina." Since Courtney did not criticize women for not giving Sarah Palin a free pass, etc, he will never admit that an apology is due.
he was using "sexism" in the right-wing code word sense, where it means, "not giving Sarah Palin a free pass on everything because she has a vagina."
But it's not just about Palin having a vagina, it's that she has a vagina AND wants to control everyone else's vagina, too. That's the kind of person that should get a free pass in Bill's mind.
Other than that, I agree.
The best thing is to ignore him... He's a bully who loves attention.
Jessica, do you know if when guests go on those shows, they're only allowed to reference the organization they're listed as representing in that segment?
Here, Courtney was listed as Women's Media center but I kept waiting for her to pop in with a triumphant "Yes, Bill, please see the Palin Sexism Watch series on notable blog Feministing, for which I am an editor."
Is it a conflict of interest with Women's Media Center?
(She did a great job all-around, I was just hoping she could nip his "WE GOOGLED YOU" nonsense in the bud. He was less egregious than usual, though).
http://www.feministing.com/cgi-bin/movabletype/mt-search.fcgi?IncludeBlogs=2&search=palin+sexism+watch
Media Matters has the clip of the segment up now, for anyone who doesn't want to deal with the obnoxious YouTube comments: http://mediamatters.org/countyfair/200902110033
I don't think that anyone in their right mind could call Courtney a hypocrite. She has never been anything but consistent in her rebuttal and furor about sexism. Now, what may confuse some people is the fact that not everything C wrote about Sarah Palin was a defense against sexist coverage, since Palin herself was sexist on a number of occasions and with a number of her policies.
I personally don't believe that SNL was making fun of Palin's appearance anymore than they mae fun of the appearance of any other public figure that they parody. They were simply replicating something which was already there - even to the point of saying exactly what Palin had said.
...Does it surprise anyone else that we're STILL talking about this? Haven't we made our position clear?
I'm not even American and I understand the whole sordid affair better that BO'R. It makes me tired.
Well done, Courtney and thanks Jessica for doing O'Reilly's homework for him re: the two links to Courtney's calling out of sexism on Palin.
Here's my contribution:
http://tinyurl.com/d5lu96
Congrats on the takedown; I just wish that there was some sort of automatic cancellation of people that were consistently disingenuous or wrong. With O'Reilly (and to a similar extent any Fox News host, especially the newly hired King of Dipshits Glenn Beck), it just makes them stronger because their core audience doesn't give a good rat's ass.
To be honest, this legitimately infuriates me. I try not to let O'Reilly get to me, but, *sigh*, he just does. Because, unfortunately, he has a large viewership. And he never admits when he makes a mistake. Or lies. And he's never held accountable. And its unfair that he's saying she was silent on attacks on Palin, because it isn't true. And a ton of people who may not know much about feminism or women's groups may be watching that and assume we're hypocrites only interested in trivial things. And it leaves a terrible taste in my mouth.
O'Reilly's an idiot, and WE all know that. It also makes me upset (when I let it) that he has such a large viewership, but that's because so many people just take whatever he says as truth, even though he blatantly lies constantly. However, Courtney, you definitely got him, not only because he was flat making sh*t up, but also because he kept backtracking .... "I didn't call her a witch ..." Really? Are you ... are you sure? Raise your hand if you heard that ... Oh, ok. That's what I thought.
Also, you can tell when he gets uncomfortable and feels threatened because he starts raising his voice and just talks over people. I loved how COOL Courtney stayed, even when he was trying to get a rise out of her and started yelling and finger wagging. Courtney, you're a much better woman than I. THANK YOU!!
Great job, Courtney. Really... I think maintaining composure in a situation where someone is actively trying to provoke you to say something stupid in front of millions of viewers is a feat very few people could pull off. And you did it well enough that even O'Reilly had to give you props throughout the interview.
Mind you, I surely have a few questions - like why you didn't bring up Palin Sexism Watch when he asked about your double-standarding... I'm guessing it's because you didn't want him deflecting all the attention from himself.
At any rate, that was really stand-up and about the best I could see anyone doing on that ridiculous show. Heck, with the sort of respect dude was giving you, maybe you'll have one of those cordial relationships with Billo, like Maddow has with Buchanan... when's your tv program gonna start up?
The point remains, Why did no one complain about all the comedic disrespect by people such as Fey,Letterman,Stewart, Joy Bear etc against Palin. Why was it ok to attack er and not Helen. The answer is so obvious, both are disrespectful and should be criticized. Attacking Sarah personally, her children, the "question of Trigs birth", calling her names...was just rude, just as the thing with Helen. Compromise..Oreilly apologizes and so does Fey etc.Including bloggers here and Courtney Herself, Gloria Steinam,etc
You'll notice, Bruce, that no one here called out comedians for similar jokes (to Tina Fey's Palin impersonation) relating to Clinton or Obama or Gore or any other liberals... But when folks took it too far, even if they're allies or progressives, Courtney and her colleagues were quick to call folks to task.
So, yeah, Courtney has nothing to apologize for. When did she make a sexist remark about Sarah Palin? When? Come. On. If you learn to read on your own instead of what's placed in your hand, I wouldn't have had to proffer those two, out of oh, so many, examples. But it's much easier, I guess, to just avoid looking around so you can claim that there's nothing there. Do your homework.
Just so I understand, it was ok for those comedians to disrespect people until you decided it went to far? Some people would view O'reilly's comments as" a Joke" given that Alan Combs too was laughing. Others may view comments made by Joy Behar, David Letterman, John Stewart and yes Tina Fey's caricature not only of words of Palin but mannerisms etc in bad taste- isn't it better to condemn all personal attacks period. My point was that no one took to task these comedians actions vis a vis Palin- I have checked( on my own- no one to help me) and I see no one connected with this site condemning ANY of the supposedly joking comments about Bristol Palin,Trig etc. Let's be fair and balanced here and condemn all personal attacks,caricatures etc and seek to discuss the issues
Bruce,
I don't read everything, but I do remember reading several pieces in the feminist blogosphere that did take on the attacks on Bristol Palin. Again, I'll put it to you on a platter - here.
Regarding the other stuff... look, you want to keep moving the goal posts and we can do this forever. However, I've done your homework for you and found a few examples out of many of feminists, both here and in allied sites, who have publicly criticized the sexist ways in which Palin was portrayed in the media. I mean, really... Joy Behar? Are her political comments really noteworthy? I don't think so...
Anyways, I'm not going to dig through all the articles that went up during the campaign just so you don't have to... but I also don't want you to feel secure that because you haven't read it, it doesn't exist. It seems to me that you're just not familiar with the lines of discourse that were going on in the feminist blogosphere at the time.
Further, regarding Fey's impersonation - it's no more sexist or in bad taste than any other impersonation of a politician. Most of the more challenging parts were just set ups for things that either she said or that her campaign put out about her (such as the pageant-winner thing, which I think was the most obnoxious aspect of her portrayal on SNL - but which was initially publicized by the McCain campaign, despite its irrelevance to the position).
BOTTOM LINE: This site, among many others in the feminist blogosphere, actually had a running section called "Palin Sexism Watch," which criticized individuals and groups on the left and the right. To claim otherwise is just silly.
If anyone in this community let it slide for anyone to focus on whether or not Palin was "sexy" (such as the VPILF garbage, which was regularly derided here) or not (which I think was as irrelevant and disrespectful as the "witch" comparison, and is probably the best parallel), I think it's pretty clear that such a slide was due to oversight rather than intention. The dedication of so much space to defending Palin against the left and the right on this site and ones like it makes that point pretty clearly. I mean, there were other stories going on during the election, but these folks found sexist attacks on Palin to be important enough to merit a whole string of blog posts.
Hey, but you can go back to your dreamworld if you'd like - it would be really easy, all you have to do is continue not researching points of view that depart from yours. Have fun with it.
SNL skit with Sarah Palin and Hillary Clinton is sexist?
I will say that the moment I clicked on this link, I had a moment of "oh gosh this is going to be sexist..." Honestly, it is Saturday Night Live and I might be giving them an easy out, but this really did make me laugh my ass off. These were Courtney's own words. Is this a defense of Palin or is it giving SNL a pass and an easy way out?Look O'Reilly acted in bad taste, we agree on that, but why give a pass to some and attack others. Consistency is necessary to maintain credibility isn't it unless the idea is to attack jokes from the right but give pass to those on the left. This is morally wrong isn't it..The worst offender is of course Joy Bear on the View, she makes the crudest comments about those she doest like but covers it up in a "joke".
Actually, Bruce, this isn't a free pass. This is an example of someone approaching the SNL skit with a critical eye and coming to the conclusion that it was not sexist. I would like to know how the skit's treatment of double standards and caricatures of both individuals' public personas is actually as iota sexist.
I mean, I understand that they are making fun of both individuals, but the skit actually calls out instances of mediated sexism in the execution of the sketch AND it does YOU a favor of spelling out the difference between political lampooning and sexism. (If you're hearing impaired, here's the line - "It's never sexist to question female politicians' credentials." Whereas using negative stereotypes ("harpy", etc.) or positive, but demeaning ones ("MILF", etc.) is, most definitely, sexist.)
Yeah, consistency is important. Courtney has it in droves.
And, again, no one here cares about Joy Behar... In fact, I don't think that the esteemed women who run this site have even mentioned her name but in passing. I'm not going to expect them write about every dumb comment my friend Steve says - mainly, because it's irrelevant. On the issues dealt with on this site, Ms Behar's perspective is (and pardon me if I'm overstating this, as I'm sure she has valuable things to add to a variety of a subjects) wholly irrelevant.
O'Reilly, on the other hand, is a political commentator with a large viewership - patently relevant. Just a bunch of angry liberals wearing shirts with the "c" word on them at a political rally is patently relevant and disgraceful.
I am very aware of the excellent work this blog, new agenda, feminist law professors and others have done..my concern is simply that if we allow bad taste, either by SNL,Letterman,Stewart,or Oreilly etc we are doing a disservice.Political viewpoint of the presenter should not at times give them a"free pass" while other presenters are not so given. O Reilly was wrong but so was SNL etc
Exactly. And my point stands that a good amount of the "Palin Sexism Watch" stuff here and on other feminist blogs were actually targeted at what Melissa, at Shakesville, called "fauxgressives." SNL didn't really make any sexist jabs at Palin, though they did make many jabs (about the hunting, her much-touted pageant past, her statements about Russia, her policy points, etc.) So... exactly who was getting the free pass?
As I just pointed out, Courtney even wrote a piece after watching the first SNL skit with the assumption it would be sexist and concluded that it really wasn't. I'd love to know which part of the SNL skit in question actually was sexist... was it the part where they called out the media for sexualizing Palin or the part where they called out the media for shrew-ifying Clinton? I mean, the SNL skit EXPLICITLY CALLS OUT SEXIST TREATMENTS OF PALIN AS BAD.
Calling someone a "witch," though, is patently sexist and, to boot, is NOT a comical critique of sexism.
Oh, and I don't really thing that this counts as a "free pass" to Jon Stewart...
So, the folks with the "c" word shirts were using a sexist base for their "joke" were expressing sexism bad taste. As was Stephanie Miller, Margaret Cho, Sandra Bernhardt, the Human Rights Campaign, the New York Times, etc. etc. etc. Feministing saw fit to cover other stories as well. However, they called out both liberals and conservatives in the several pieces they ran... Other bloggers, like at Shakesville, Womanist Musings, California NOW, Tennessee Guerilla Women, etc. etc. etc. had more stories about sexist attacks on Palin.
I think we all learned, through this process, that there are many so-called progressives who really have their hearts in the wrong place. And Feministing, for one, had 2 (Cho & the t-shirt idiots) out of its 10 or so pieces specifically targeted at liberals... and, again, 2 (O'Reilly & McCain) of which were targeted at conservatives (the remaineder included sex shops and anonymous jerks, like the VPILF morons). That's, by the numbers, perfectly even-handed.
Realize, too, that Feministing didn't call out every last instance of sexist statements about Clinton - as there are, after all, other newsworthy things that happen.
No, not a free pass there... but it seems like you've only read those parts of which I've written that fit into your pre-existing supposition. In which case, it's kind of pointless for me to even be writing this, since you'll probably remain convinced that no amount of information can trump your assumption that folks got a "free pass" because of their politics.
No you have convinced me, my apologies blessings bn
Bruce,
No apologies necessary... I'm actually kind of confused that you are convinced, because I was thinking that with each post I was getting less patient and coherent... but, hey, maybe I said something I hadn't said before... I'm just dismayed at my own grammar in the last post or two.
At any rate, if you're sincerely engaged in challenging ideas back and forth and really listening and responding to one another, there's never a need for either side to apologize, right?
So I don't accept your apologies, but definitely the blessings and blessings back to you. -p