So, I'm getting married. To this guy. There, I said it. I've been putting off writing about this for a while now (as somewhat explained by the hilarious someecard that Amanda sent to me above).
Being that most of us here blog about our personal lives quite a bit - from birth control and Spanx to body image and pets - it seems only natural that I would write about getting married. Especially given how political marriage is, especially right now.
But there was something nice about having this be private and not for public blogging, flickring, Facebooking or commenting. (After all, you don't have to be a blogger to have your personal life on display!) And I was feeling all romantical, certainly not like debating and politicizing my relationship decisions. But shit, that's what I kind of signed up for, right? Well...maybe.
I think that blogging about your life as a way to talk about politics can be a powerful tool; it's one I've used often and find effective. It humanizes experiences that are so often talked about as statistics and develops a sense of community that can be powerful when called to action. But political and media strategies aside, I like that when I meet readers in person they feel as if they know me and other editors on the site (and if they're a commenter, I feel as if I know them!). It's a lovely feeling of connectedness and solidarity that's unlike anything else, and I value it deeply.
But I also think that what we - as bloggers, writers or just folks with an online presence - put out into the public sphere should be up to us. I don't want to feel that I must blog about getting married because it relates to the work that I do. I want to be able to have things that are just for me and not be judged poorly because of that. (Whether or not these are realistic wants remains to be seen!)
After thinking about this for a while, I realized that I don't feel like I had to blog about getting married - I wanted to. I wanted to share some good news with a community that I love and am proud to have had a hand in creating.
I'm positive you'll be hearing more from me on the marriage front: Like how to do it while shirking patriarchal tradition? Or why I decided to participate in an institution that still (for the most part) excludes same-sex couples. And I'd love to hear back from you as well - what your experiences are with marriage, not-being-married, etc. I think it could be a great conversation.
But for right now, I'm just going to be glad that I've finally shared this news with all of you, and start to think about subversive wedding favors...or something.
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Congrats, Jessica. I look forward to reading your next blog posts on marriage.
That's great Jessica! Congrats! The way I see it, the more feminists that get married the more the institution itself will have to change.
Congratulations. My boyfriend and I are in an unusual situation in that I want to get married but he has feminist objections to the institution of marriage. I'd love to hear more about your decision to get married despite feminist concerns with the institution.
Congrats. I look forward to reading about your decisions and experiences, and how someone smart, funny and feminist handles all the craziness surrounding this issue. We're all behind you!
I'm not sure why your tone must be so damp on such a happy event.
The first few replies are proof of Jessica's post: the personal is always political. She's getting married, therefore she'll be writing more about the topic on the Feministing site in the future.
However, it IS a happy event, and I wish you all the best =) Congrats!
bahahaha! do you even read this blog? lolol
Congrats! I'm sure this will be controversial, to some extent, but I'm happy for you!
So warm wishes from your friends in Mankato!
Oooh congratulations! We're all rooting for you, tying together weddings with feminist values is probably a herculean task to pull off, but I'm sure you can do it.
Congrats Jess. I understand the confusion. I got married a little more than a year ago and it was really confusing for me at times. There were certain things I wanted but would then berate myself for because I felt they were unfeminist. It's a rocky terrain to walk but I always reminded myself that it boiled down to feelings and dedication and the way my partner treated me and that made it easier. I think our society puts so much pressure on the wedding itself it's easy to forget the real point.
yeah if anyone can get married in an awesome, non-lame, non-patriarchal hardcore way, itd be you. and i hope to learn from it.
I wanted to pop in here and say congratulations. Sharing your life with someone can be a beautiful and rewarding experience. Though I am happily unmarried to the same dude for almost 20 years I know that without him I would not have had the strength to be who I became. Best of luck on your journey and may your days be filled with nothing but happiness and love
Not to be a wet blanket, but lame is a really awful ablist term. :o(
Darn it, that was meant to go to Sammylif. Clearly I should wear my glasses when sat at the computer. :o/
That has never even occurred to me! I will try to erase that one from my vocab.
Congratulations, and good luck to the both of you!
Congratulations, and thanks for spreading the joy! It's healthy sometimes to stop worrying about the patriarchy for a minute and learn to love the flowers.
I absolutely and totally agree with your comments! Sometimes it is time to just live your life on your terms outsiders and others be damned.
Congratulations! As a soon-to-be-wed feminist, I for one welcome your thoughts on the subject. :)
Lots of thoughts here, but (a) congrats, and (b) two fun things from my best friend's wedding a couple years ago:
-- we had fun with The Anti-Bride Guide
http://www.amazon.com/Anti-Bride-Guide-Tying-Knot-Outside/dp/0811829677
-- we renamed a lot of "roles"; i.e., I was the Maid of Dishonor and there was a Best Woman. There was also a fashionista, but that's another story. ;-)
Congrats Jessica!!! That's great news!
Congrats! Cherish your wedding day and marriage. I'm sure you will, especially since you, as a feminist, realize what a privilege it is to celebrate your relationship in public when so many of us can't. Secondly, living in hetero-normative bliss as a smart, feminist woman is a good way to shut up all those people who say that feminists are all lesbians or bitter, lonely, ugly broads who hate the menfolk.
Finally, wow, he's cute, you're cute, he's smart, you're SO smart, and I'm JEALOUS!
Wow, way to put down a lot of people. Especially those of us who are consistently ignored despite being extremely loyal feminists. And as for us lesbians, guess we really are the "lavender menace," aren't we, Tsunade? Your entire comment was incredibly insensitive and offensive and steeped in patriarchal bs. Even your attempts at complimenting Jessica are pretty obnoxious. You should really re-read what you just wrote and remember where you are (and of course, how you got here).
Uh, how the hell did I imply that being a lesbian, single, or even ugly is a bad thing? That's the STEREOTYPE of feminism, and it's incorrect. Okay, so some of us are humorless and angry (some things just aren't funny). What I meant is that feminism is good for everyone: single ladies, queers, minorities, white women, men, and heterosexual couples.
I would never put down single women or queer girls. Seeing as I'm both.
while i'm sure you're trying to complement jessica, your comment implies that those of us who are queer, alone, "ugly" and/or "bitter" give a bad name to feminism, which is in and of its self very anti-feminist
I think you both might be judging a bit harshly.
In my opinion, Tsunade wan't misspeaking or bringing down feminism or anything like that. It's hard to hear tone when it's typed, but I believe there was no harm done in the comment they left. Lesbian, ugly, bitter, man-hating etc ARE all meant-to-be-derogatory stereotypes of a feminist woman, as is often stated in this blog and it's comments. We generally understand these stereotypes to be less than helpful to the cause, but we also joke about BEING it ("yes, you have to prove that you have hairy armpits, hate all men, have never used makeup, and drink herbal tea all day long before they let you be a feminist") even though there certainly are plenty of us that absolutely fit that profile, or at least parts of it.
Anyway. I don't think Tsunade was trying to insult or bring down any of us. I don't even think Tsunade did it by accident. I think it's just hard to hear tone when it's typed and so we maybe should try to be a little more understanding and forgiving... lest we the become bitter nit-pickers they think we all are! ;)
I read it as Tsunade saying that it was one way to do that but not necessarily the way. Not to mention, s/he pointed obliquely referenced in the first sentence how unfair it is that lesbians can't marry.
Congratulations and felicidades!
I just got married in November. As a very strident feminist, most of my friends and family were shocked by this "choice."
But it was simple, really. For me, my fiance and I were trying to live in two countries (his and mine), to unite across a border, buy property together, AND start a business together. The institution of marriage is profoundly problematic. But it also endures as the one and only way to do the things we wanted: to really be together, to be free to literally cross borders together, entwine our lives as a proof of our trust and sharing.
Our ceremony was written by us. God was not mentioned. (We felt that, whether we believe or not, we were entering a very REAL, EARTHBOUND contract; we wanted it to be, "I choose you, and you choose me;" that should be bond enough, no?)
We also had our living parents participate in the ceremony. Both my MOTHER AND FATHER walked WITH me, side by side; no "giving away" of THIS bride. When we exchanged rings, we said, "I give this ring as my gift to you. Wear it and know that I love you."
Oh, and no attendants. Why? Didn't want my female or male friends to have to spend more money in these hard times fussing over what they'd look like, or fluttering into town for rehearsal dinners, and so on. I conceived of it as a day to share, not to put pressure on others.
And we had a blast. In a Brooklyn loft. Amazing view, great food and drinks - those ingredients are a must. It was like the best party I've ever been to. I didn't even feel nervous, because there was so little pomp and circumstance; during the ceremony we felt as if we were standing there, alone, saying exactly what we already felt and knew, and finally making it "real" after years of living together, on some kind of cross-border fringe.
I kept my name, after much distress on that point. It was my name, it was ME, and I did not want to part with it, even if my name (passed down from my father) is ALSO patriarchal. That one was tough for some reason, but then I woke up one morning and said, "My husband NEVER, EVER in his life considered changing his name, why am I even considering changing MINE?" (Though because he is from a Latin American country I did consider their name conventions, too; patriarchal, but the maternal name is passed down.)
Sorry for the long comment. But marriage can be done in a way that does not compromise anyone's beliefs, yours OR your future husband's. Marriage is a contract, a choice, a partnership. That is why we are fighting for marriage equality, of course-- "definitions" of marriage be damned.
Wow, you should have blogged about your wedding. It sounds really cool! I've seen a lot of people on this site trying to navigate the wedding thing while still being true to their beliefs, and yours may be my favorite I've seen! I love the idea of mom and dad both "giving you away".
Sounds like you and I had a lot of similar ideas for our weddings, Lindsey. Both of us being agnostic, we also had no mention of God per se in our vows. The minister was a bit taken aback by that, but she went along. Towards the beginning of the ceremony she said, "Nobody is being given; both parties are here of their own will".
The question of last names was easy for us as, through a complicated series of events, my husband bears the name of neither his biological father nor the man he calls "Dad". He had even considered taking my last name, but since he had been published, he decided not to after all.
Since we had one groomsman and one bridesmaid, there was no need to coordinate fancy outfits. When my friend called to ask what she should wear, I asked, "What have you already got?"
Another friend who got married just figured that every woman has a nice black dress, and asked all of her bridesmaids to wear one.
We had our ceremony in the Ornamental Gardens at Ottawa's Experimental Farm, and the reception at a reasonably-priced hotel near our place.
First of all, congratulations, Jessica! Any celebration of love is a wonderful thing (yes, I am a total sap), and while I hope you don't feel too much pressure to make a political statement with your personal experience, I know that you will have a beautiful feminist wedding.
Lindsey, thank you for bringing up this point! I've spent the last five or so years knowing that I would never want to get a married--a combination of growing up in my parents' own unhappy marriage, the political implications of marriage, and, of course, the anger I get every time I attend a wedding that is steeped in patriarchal traditions and language.
I have, however, thrown a wrench in the plan by falling in love with a man from a different continent (the deal was sealed when he asked me to bring him a "This Is What a Feminist Looks Like" shirt on a recent visit)! The fact of the matter is, if we ever do want to live in the same place and truly share our lives together, marriage is the way to do it (thank you, US immigration. groan). We are not at the point of engagement, but this whole situation has certainly caused me to rethink the institution. I ask myself almost daily whether a marriage would be a compromise of my own beliefs or a great way of "stickin' it to the man" and using a non-traditional marriage to get what this feminist wants!
So, on that note, Jessica, I'm looking forward to seeing how everything plays out for you! Good luck! :)
And let me clarify my lazy language - the WEDDING can be done to your taste.
The terms of the MARRIAGE are between you and your partner. And vastly more important than that one day!
Congratulations, Jessica! I am happy for you, and for him. I look forward to reading your posts on the subject. I am not opposed to getting married some day, but I would want to execute the wedding in a non-traditional, feminist-minded way, and practice equality within the marriage itself.
I really feel you on the public/private matter. It makes me uncomfortable to read people's constantly-changing relationship status updates on Facebook, followed by supportive/congratulatory comments. It's like people are more interested in broadcasting their personal issues than dealing with them, with facing their own lives. I don't know.
I agree about reading about people's relationships constantly changing on facebook. In that sense I think it's sweet that Jessica id careful about putting personal news on the internet.
Jessica, it makes me realize how thoughtful you are, both for yourself and for the things the you care and study and write about.
Anyway, congrats! I think it is a feminist statement to marry the person you choose, how and when you choose. Besides that, feminism is about embracing every choice. Embrace away!
is this the same guy who had a new magic card created to propose with?
if i remember the story correctly, it was an instant spell, entitled "Will You Marry Me?" and it cost a couple of white mana. the creater and his fiancee-to-be had played multiple hands while he waited to get the card. he finally drew it, went to cast it - and she COUNTERSPELLED it! she had NO IDEA what he was "casting"! it took like another 3 hands for him to be able t actually play the card.
sorry, i put this in the wrong place!
This must have been the best wedding ever:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/8
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/10
(Mark Rosewater is head of R&D for Wizards of the Coast.)
i accidentally posted this to the wrong place the first time, so, repost...
is this the same guy who had a new magic card created to propose with?
if i remember the story correctly, it was an instant spell, entitled "Will You Marry Me?" and it cost a couple of white mana. the creater and his fiancee-to-be had played multiple hands while he waited to get the card. he finally drew it, went to cast it - and she COUNTERSPELLED it! she had NO IDEA what he was "casting"! it took like another 3 hands for him to be able t actually play the card.
Congratulations, Jessica!! I am looking forward to hearing what you have to say about the tangle that is marriage ideology and your process of coming to terms with it.
I'm married as well, although possibly not for long [same sex and in CA], and I wish you only the best. It really is a wonderful feeling for those of us who desire to be married, and it has been both fun and interesting to strive to make the institution of marriage "our own." I'm sincerely glad to know that you will NOT have to face at least some of the obstacles that we've had to face; I wouldn't wish that on anybody, especially you!
Congrats!
Marriage in a historical and institutional sense sucks.
But being married to someone you love isn't necessarily about an institution or what people did a hundred years ago. It's about the two of you and being happy.
As for a feminist wedding...my hubby and I eloped. But "marriage" for us was more about the fact that he almost died and I wasn't allowed in the room even though I had medical power of attorney than it was about commitment (we'd been together for 6 years at that point).
I can't recommend eloping enough (assuming wedding planning doesn't make you happy). There's no god involved (at least in our ceremony) and our officiant was a female judge. Plus we split a kosher hot dog after...which was very yummy.
I wanted to throw in my congratulations as well. I've been married to the most fabulous man for 7 years, and I have never regretted that decision. He is as feminist as I suppose a middle class white man can be, and I adore him. I'm sure that the man someone as awesome as you chose has got to be pretty badass.
I'm so happy for you :) You're such a wonderful caring person, I'm glad you have found someone to share life's joys with. And please don't let the bigots who oppose equal marriage rights mess up your marriage as well! You don't have to defend yourself at all, this is your personal decision and you should feel happy. I just have one burning question: Is Monty going to be the ring bearer?
Firstly, my congratulations and wishes for unending bliss.
Secondly, WATCH OUT! I got married at a very young age much to the chagrin of my friends to whom I had sworn I wouldn't. I never considered for a second changing my name. No god in the ceremony. It went without saying that we would half all expenses (even though I was earning less at the time). Twenty-four years later I have been supporting my husband for the past 16 almost 17 years while he pursues his "writing" career and just discovered today that he has overlimited credit cards (again) with phone/internet porn. As I live in a no-fault divorce community property state if we divorce he can ask for and will be awarded spousal support which he will be entitled to until he re-marries or dies. If it wasn't such I piss off I'd laugh hysterically - actually I do laugh hysterically while crying. Ironic no, it's just a flip of the classic roles. The long and short of this is - be in love and enjoy it but NEVER FORGET that the only person you can always count on is yourself make sure you always have escape cash and complain loudly about every double standard and less for you decision/action he makes. And walk out sooner rathern than later if it goes south. Better yet get a pre-nup!
Ok and so I end on a little happier note. The best thing about this marriage happenned during our wedding. I threw the bouquet and all my friends took a step back and watched it plop on the ground in front of them - smart women. I still laugh at the memory.
Thanks, all, for the wonderful wishes. Andrew is just pleased that someone called him cute.
Seriously, he is super cute :) Congrats, I wish you both years and years of happiness.
He is cute! I second the motion to call him such.
And congratulations. I understand everything you're saying, the excitement, the feminist in you having some small reservations - I just reckon that you can apply the same logic to your marriage as you do to same-sex marriage. There are reasons beyond the traditional, patriarchal ones to legally and emotionally align yourself with someone else, and I think it's brilliant that you've found someone lovely enough to help you to look after Monty and friends.
Have a slice of cake/a pudding/a block of chocolate for me.
Congratulations,
This is my favorite feminist site and TPM is my favorite political site! A perfect match!
I just want to say that I love being married. My husband is my best friend, excellent father to our children,psychologist,lover and my sounding board. He soothes my fears and comforts me. Yeah, I know I sound corny, but I wish you both much love and friendship.
cute anti-wedding:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/29/AR2008082901905.html
I don't get the whole anti-wedding thing. If weddings make you uncomfortable, why have one? What's the point of being ironic about or making fun of or thumbing your nose at, or whatever, at the tradition you are participating in? A wedding is a wedding, whether you wear a purple or a white dress. You can put lipstick on a pig...
I think I get it in this case -- they weren't protesting weddings as such, but rather the way weddings are sold to us the public.
Congrats! I urge you to check out these folks' wedding for inspiration:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/fashion/weddings/17VOWS.html?ex=1376712000&en=d7dd422c60344636&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink
Andrew IS cute! And so are you, Jessica!
While I am single and 24, I do occasionally think about my possible future wedding, and all my feminist issues with most of the marital day traditions. I look forward to your thoughts and challenges, and want to thank you (and the whole feministing gang) for being my feminist role model(s)!
Oh, and CONGRATULATIONS!!
Congratulations, Jessica! I'm eagerly awaiting your next book, having just finished your first two. Oh, and someecards.com is hilarious.
Woot! Congratulations!
I got married recently, at the ripe feminist age of 28. My favorite non-patriarchal elements of the wedding:
Purple wedding dress, that looked nothing like a traditional flouncy pile of poo.
No diamond.
No crap-tastic white cake.
Generally no white.
My best friend's backyard.
My husband's dad, a district court judge, officiating.
Only 30 on the guest list. Every one truly meaningful to me in some major way.
No random photographers/planners/event people I don't know.
Congratulations! Have FUN with it!
Congratulations!
And thank you for sharing this.
I am also looking forward to your posts on the topic (I'm married myself - I have objections to the institution but am optimistic about us living our lives together in a way that we want - sometimes easy, sometimes not so), but first of all, enjoy yourself! Enjoy feeling romantic! Congratulations again!
Congratulations, Jessica!
And at the end of the day, remember that this marriage is not about anyone else, just the two of you, and you two get to determine what it means and what it is. I am happily married to someone who is my partner, my equal and my love. Congrats again!
Congrats!
Planning a feminist wedding and having a feminist marriage are challenging goals, but I hope they are doable because I'm in the same boat! I, too, am struggling with my choice to participate in a discriminatory (in my state) institution, but here's my philosophy about things:
1. The best way to convince people that egalitarian and feminist relationships are the way to go is to have one, and make it as happy, well-founded and loving as you can. Be the change, as they say.
2. My gay friends, at least, don't begrudge me the chance to be married, they simply want that chance for themselves. Participating in marriage isn't participating in the discrimination unless you cease fighting for equality for others.
Good luck!
PS- please post any subversive feminist favors!
that's wonderful, thanks for sharing with us...keep us posted!
Hi Jessica,
As a writer/blogger/New Yorker/rabid feminist in love with a politically-minded/hyper-liberal guy with a cute beard, I'm feeling a bit your doppelganger at this (and other) moment(s).
When we got engaged, it was meant in the most progressive, non-traditional/oppressive/patriarchal/consumerist spirit possible - more along the lines of, "this is the biggest way I can think of to tell you how much I love you." We were thrilled about the prospect of our godless barefoot hippie wedding in the woods, surrounded by friends making music and celebrating our happiness.
I wanted to do it immediately - both in the spontaneous spirit of our engagement, and to circumnavigate the pitfalls of Wedding Planning (and my mother's inevitable involvement). But the S.O. wanted to wait until the following spring - so, rather than resent the spontaneity-stifling delay, I embraced the opportunity to learn about just what I was getting into. I even started a blog about the ethics of marriage.
I began my education by reading Women, Weddings, and the Marriage Mystique by Jaclyn Geller - a fearsome rant against marriage that by turns sank into bitter snark...and then made some very important points that I, a hyper-aware academic feminist, hadn't adequately considered. Why are romantic relationships celebrated and other relationships not? What do I get out of getting married - and is it laudable?
Meanwhile, I noticed that the shiny thing on my left hand was affording me some special treatment - some good, some bad, and all of it unwelcome. I felt very uncomfortable being defined in some way by my engagement ring. Actually, I felt less like a person and more like a parking space - TAKEN. I started wearing it on my other hand.
At the same time, I could feel the Wedding Industrial Complex catching up to me, no matter how hard I ran from it. Having already eliminated the "and obey" from the traditional vows - and then having eliminated traditional vows altogether - the questions become more various and detailed, requiring huge spans of thoughtful attention and consideration: Who walks whom down what? To throw or not throw the bouquet? What deities are or are not mentioned? Who presides? Dress or pants? White or not-white? Bridesmen! Groomswomen! Handfasting! DIY favors! Looking at my ever-growing inspiration board of "offbeat" bridery - recycled bamboo dresses, local/organic dessert buffets - I became unsure of whether I was really stepping out of the box. Maybe I was - but maybe I was like the 50s housewife, goaded into buying an ever-expanding array of "time-saving" products by being persuaded that she was a domestic "expert." Was I just gilding my marital cage, after all? Was all this indie-wedding planning just there to distract me from examining the underpinnings of marriage? Would the marriage certificate be my expert's "degree" - for a master's in suckerdom?
One day on the subway platform, I turned to J. and asked, "Why do you want to get married?"
"Because I love you and want to spend my life with you."
"No, not 'why do you want to be with me.' Why do you want to get married?" I knew the answer didn't have anything to do with stability (we had that), commitment (we had that too), or reverence for tradition (we rejected that utterly). But why, then?
He paused. "Because I want to have children with you." He face was earnest. These were tender subjects.
But I wasn't going to be distracted by sentiment this time. "So, do you think people have to or should be married to have kids?"
He answered quickly. "No."
"So, why do you want to get married?"
A train passed. He looked frought. "Political rights and privileges, I guess. And a great party with all of our friends around us."
A party, obviously, we could have anytime (though not, perhaps, on my parents' dime). So, rights and privileges? Tax breaks, hospital visits, that sort of thing? Was that the best reason we could come up with?
I love this guy with all my feminist, polyamorous, hippie heart, and I want to spend my life with him. I want to have his kids. But I canceled our wedding date.
This is all ongoing. We're still in the confusing thick of these decisions - and we're still "engaged," with no wedding on the horizon. We haven't talked with our families about our feelings - mostly because we still haven't figured out what they are. But I'm less certain then ever that the institution of marriage, with its exploitative history, consumer-driven present identity, and un-questionable morality, is for me.
But maybe it is. I don't know yet. I share all this with you not because I'm a HUGE BAG OF DOWNERS (sorry, Jessica!!!), but because I want you to know three things:
1) There are other folks facing these hard questions with you, who seek community with you and who will support you in your journey and your decisions. (And who live in Brooklyn. Just sayin'.)
2) The deeper you dig, the more difficult the answers might be to face. Or maybe not - but be prepared, just in case. Have courage.
3) Planning your ecofeministpagandemocraticbuddhisthandfasting MIGHT STILL BE A TRAP to suck you into the W.I.C, to spend pointlessly huge sums of money and to keep you from thinking through the hard stuff. Beware!
Whew. All that said - love rocks. Congratulations on being in it. :)
Much love and warmth,
Kate
P.S. So sorry for this diatribe. I couldn't help myself ;)
"So, rights and privileges? Tax breaks, hospital visits, that sort of thing? Was that the best reason we could come up with?"
Doesn't feel like that big a deal until it happens. I remember when my SO was rushed into the emergency room. I was still in law school and we were a million miles from home or family. There was literally no one within 4 time zones that could provide his medical history. The SO and I had executed medical powers of attorney for just that reason (mostly because I'm asthmatic and the SO is completely paranoid about it). It didn't matter one iota. No one in the emergency room gave a shit about my MPO. They asked if we were married. I said no. And they told me to leave. Two hours of screaming at hospital administrators later they finally let me in the room because he regained consciousness and requested my presence.
It was terrifying. Absolutely terrifying. Three years later I'm still so angry about it I'm shaking.
And its one of the huge reasons this anti-gay marriage bullshit pisses me off. Because even if you have all the same "legal" rights...at the end of the day no one respects those documents the same way they respect a marriage license.
The privileges (I can't in good conscience call them "rights" until they are given to everyone) of marriage are exactly why my husband and I got married. Sure, there was that commitment thing, like you and your S.O., but neither of us were all that into marriage or ever thought we would get married. When he tried to get medical coverage for me from his work, we discovered that it would be way less expensive if we were married. Then, we moved back to his home state so that I could go to school; our marriage certificate meant that I could go right away and didn't have to pay the out-of-state tuition or wait to be considered a citizen. There's also the factor that without the marriage license, the person who would probably be called if I became seriously ill or died (my father) is NOT someone I want making ANY decisions about my life or death, whereas I trust my husband completely.
So we're best friends and completely committed to each other, which was part of the reason we got married, but like you point out, we could have that without marriage. We wanted to be able to take advantage of those privileges.
But I would also point out that for me, completely cynical about marriage after watching my father have three terrible ones (not to mention the numerous other people who I saw get divorced or nearly divorced in spite of my perception of their bond), my own marriage was really special. I cried during the ceremony and felt a much more intense commitment afterward. Maybe that's just the parts of the patriarchy that I've absorbed talking, but I've heard other people say it too - including one lesbian couple I know who were able to get married before Prop 8 was voted into law.
All the privileges that you use to make your life easier are things that queers like me don't have. How do you justify as a feminist choosing access to things that others don't have access to?
One, I got married before I realized I was a feminist.
And two, these should be rights. The fact that they aren't rights for everyone doesn't preclude me from using them, anymore than I would, say, refuse habeas corpus because it is currently denied to a lot of people in this country. Meanwhile, I do what I can (which isn't much, unfortunately) to try to make them accessible to everyone.
Thank you for taking the time to post this comment... and i honestly think it's rad that you're not getting married.
Thanks for your responses, everyone! I think this is such an interesting dialogue.
Kristen, I didn't mean to suggest that political privileges (you're correct not to call them "rights," since everyone isn't afforded them) are "no big deal." Obviously you and wax ghost can attest that they're a big deal indeed.
What I meant to say is, it sometimes feels to me like a lot of romantic/traditional fluff exists PRECISELY TO disguise the bitter history of marriage, the ways in which it oppresses certain groups and is still steeped in patriarchy, and the ultimately pragmatic, political choice that marriage is.
Tax breaks, affordable insurance, or hospital visitation rights are all totally good reasons to get married, all by themselves. But obtaining privilege is never a neutral act when someone else is not permitted that privilege, or when your membership serves to reinforce the celebrated normativity of romantic, hetero-monogamous life partnership - even if that's not what you practice, personally. I believe that these consequences should be carefully weighed against the benefit of privilege before making the decision to marry.
"What I meant to say is, it sometimes feels to me like a lot of romantic/traditional fluff exists PRECISELY TO disguise the bitter history of marriage, the ways in which it oppresses certain groups and is still steeped in patriarchy, and the ultimately pragmatic, political choice that marriage is."
I think it sort of evolved the other way...marriage was always a political/financial arrangement and then we romanticized what are very political acts because they're tradition. I read a very interesting book on it a while back I think was called the History of the Wife or something. In any event, I think of our love of weddings as the equivalent to the neo-cons obsession with the 1950s...forget all the racism and sexism and classism...the hate crimes, anti-depressants and institutionalization of the poor...IT WAS AWESOME!?!
"But obtaining privilege is never a neutral act when someone else is not permitted that privilege, or when your membership serves to reinforce the celebrated normativity of romantic, hetero-monogamous life partnership - even if that's not what you practice, personally."
Agreed. And the hubby and I never intended to marry for just that reason. We had join in with the movement at AtMP and decided not to married, particularly not while marriage was not available to others. But, at the end of the day, I care more about never being in that situation again than I do about the cause...which says something about me that I'm not completely comfortable with...but its the truth.
"Kristen, I didn't mean to suggest that political privileges (you're correct not to call them "rights," since everyone isn't afforded them) are "no big deal." "
Actually I think this is backwards. I have a right to control what happens to my body, I have a right to be treated equally with others of differing race, gender or religious belief. I have these rights whether they are respected by my government or not.
And I think it is the right of all humans to mutually choose companions in life.
Cheers to that, Jupiter.
**EDIT: sorry for mis-attributing your comment about rights vs. privileges, wax ghost! that was all you!
Interesting story. My boyfriend and I have been together 5 yrs and no plans of marriage, which is fine with me. One time I was discussing marriage with my best female friend, who was and still is engaged. I made the offhand comment that "it's kind of like XXXX is my husband, in a way," since by that time we'd achieved common-law status (in Canada you are officially common law partners if you've cohabited for one year). The media here commonly refers to common-law spouses as common-law "husband" or "wife."
Anyway she immediately spoke up and said "NO, he's not." I was shocked and didn't say anything at the time. I couldn't understand why she had a problem with me referring to him as my "husband" even in a vague way - like somehow because we weren't having a big church ceremony or even shlepping ourselves down to City Hall, then we were not as committed as she would be to her husband when they have their fancy wedding.
It's kinda ironic because that was a few years ago, and they are still engaged, and now she is dealing with lack of libido compatibility and having her own sexual affairs on the side (with his blessing). Guess they'll have to change that part of the vows! :P My boyfriend and I have been together longer than them and don't have any of the same kind of problems. I'm not trying to judge their arrangement - I think it's kind of cool actually, that her fiance was open to it and even suggested it himself - It just kinda amuses me that my boyfriend and I even keep to the traditional marriage vows more than she does, yet god forbid I refer to him as my "husband." Maybe I should have said unhusband. But...nah.
One more thing: one time I was talking to my cousin about his skeptical views on marriage and I was trying to defend my openness to the possibility of marriage by saying "we'd get to have a cool party," as Moonpie's fiance said. His reply was "why do you need an excuse to have a party?" I didn't really know what to say to that.
My favorite feminist blogger is marrying the deputy editor of my favorite political blog! Two great tastes rolled into one!
Congratulations.
Whoops. Deputy PUBLISHER.
Jessica, best of luck, thanks for sharing your happy news. I am sure you will be able to reconcile getting married with your anti-patriarchal mindset. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.
I have recently been struggling to understand what marriage will mean for me as a singles advocate--can I really get married when discrimination against single people (which I've been for most of my life), is fueled by the marriage machine? I think that as long as my attitude doesn't change with marriage, ie as long as I don't shift my values, then it's all good.
Marriage isn't going away. Having intelligent, progressive women embrace it on their terms, as you will be doing, is a way to gradually restructure the tradition until, one day, maybe, maybe, maybe, it will work for everyone.
--CC
Jessica, best of luck, thanks for sharing your happy news. I am sure you will be able to reconcile getting married with your anti-patriarchal mindset. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.
I have recently been struggling to understand what marriage will mean for me as a singles advocate--can I really get married when discrimination against single people (which I've been for most of my life), is fueled by the marriage machine? I think that as long as my attitude doesn't change with marriage, ie as long as I don't shift my values, then it's all good.
Marriage isn't going away. Having intelligent, progressive women embrace it on their terms, as you will be doing, is a way to gradually restructure the tradition until, one day, maybe, maybe, maybe, it will work for everyone.
--CC
Jessica, best of luck, thanks for sharing your happy news. I am sure you will be able to reconcile getting married with your anti-patriarchal mindset. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.
I have recently been struggling to understand what marriage will mean for me as a singles advocate--can I really get married when discrimination against single people (which I've been for most of my life), is fueled by the marriage machine? I think that as long as my attitude doesn't change with marriage, ie as long as I don't shift my values, then it's all good.
Marriage isn't going away. Having intelligent, progressive women embrace it on their terms, as you will be doing, is a way to gradually restructure the tradition until, one day, maybe, maybe, maybe, it will work for everyone.
--CC
Um, sorry about the serial posting there. . . cyber hiccups. . .
--CC
Congrats, Jessica, from one new spouse-to-be to another!
Congratulations, and good luck! Marriage is often a lot of work. But when it's good, there's nothing better! I love my husband more than anything else in the world, and I wish the same for you.
Okay, I'm gonna hush before I get any goopier with sentiment. :}
Congrats to you both! :D And cheers to *wanting* to disclose it.
I'm so glad you brought this up because we feminists get so into exerting our independence that I used to wonder if it was a sign of weakness for me to be so attached to a man. Gradually, I came to understand that all human beings crave relationships, and marriage provides a great stable framework for a partnership and a friendship that will last a lifetime. I you could say I'm an advocate of marriage, except that I think any two people deserve the right to marry (not just a man and a woman), and I support anyone who doesn't feel marriage is right for them. Heh. In other words, I support loving relationships wherever you might find them. I'm happy you've found someone you want to be with in, and I hope it will be as rewarding and exciting for you as it has been for me so far.
Now, just wait till people start asking "so do you plan on having kids soon?" Then you'll really have something to blog about... *grumbles about nosy people...*
Congratulations! It might be hard, but you can do it :)
Congratulations!
I really do hope that you'll blog about the wedding/marriage as much as you feel comfortable doing so. I got married almost five years ago, and it never occurred to me to read/look for wedding blogs. But one of my best friends got married in September, and she introduced me to the fabulous world of wedding blogging.
While I'm sure that many bride bloggers are feminist, the experience of reading wedding blogs (particularly group blogs like Wedding Bee) the steady drumbeat of "tradition" as you read one wedding narrative after another is most normalizing, indoctrinating thing I can imagine.
I'd love for you (or other like-minded feminist women and men) to start contributing to the conversation. It's probably too much to hope that you could explode the institution from within (the master's tools), but at least you'd be adding to the conversation and challenging the assumptions of some people who'd probably never had their choices or biases challenged before.
mazel tov! and yes, he is definitely cute. marriage is what you make of it.
mazel tov! and yes, he is definitely cute. marriage is what you make of it.
Not to put such a damper on some of the repplies...but I think that you two should just do whatever works best for the both of you, and just screw what society thinks. I mean, I think you can happen to wear a white dress (some women like to wear white) and still be a feminist. Same for many of the other older wedding traditions. If you can justify it in your own way, then so what? Many things are symbolic of things that we consider bad or evil, but many times the meanings of certain symbols and traditions can be recreated in a different context.
I am speaking this from a probably-not-a-feminist viewpoint, so maybe I'm biased. But just as I think that subjecting to absolute patriarchy isn't right, I think that one shouldn't think too hard in saying "I'm not going to do this checklist of things because it's subjecting to patriarchy." I mean, I'm up for reading what you have to say about it...but what I guess I'm saying is that I hope you truly enjoy the process and do what you two want, regardless of what both feminists and non-feminists might think about any of it.
Congrats!!
But, just curious; Didn't you have a chapter in your first book dedicated to marriage and something about leaving it behind as feminists? I'm a bit hazy on this -- I did read it, but I can't quite remember. Did you question marriage at one time, and now come to terms with it? I was somehow left with that impression from your book. If so, what changed/happened?
I was once so convinced that I would never want a wedding. Still am, but not as much as before, and am definitely more and more ok with the idea of being married (thought not necessarily through a wedding). Anyway, would love to hear your thoughts if I'm right. If not, then nevermind.
Again, congratulations and best wishes to you and yours!
** I didn't mean to write this much, but it just started flowing all rambly and shit...
I think that the experience of feeling conflict over marriage actually is, in some way, an example of the personal being political. As there is now an entire subset of feminists (and women, in general) who struggle with this issue, but don't know what exactly to do with the conflict between the theoretical and the actual. In this case, it's the existential struggle of "am I still a 'good' feminist if I...", which is something that many of us feel in trying to come to terms with our "authentic" self, which is by nature one that is both determined by us and by the perception of others whether you're in the public eye or not (though certainly being in the public eye means you probably hear more of what others think of their version of you, which is all too wrapped up in their own self-perception as well). I know, I'm being quite obtuse here. My point is that the sentiment of the personal being political was initially used to move women's experiences from a place of individualism toward one of collectivity, and that was/is helpful in establishing this thing we now call "women's issues". Somewhat ironically, the third wave started flipping this idea on it's head, saying that one person's individual and self-defined action of resistance has an impact on the group. So if Action X feels gratifying to that one person then it is, by extension, also empowering for women, as a whole. This rationale is fraught with problems, and the conflict that feminists feel about "buying into patriarchal institutions", like marriage, is but one example. There is (and should be) a distinction between an individual and the collective, and somewhere in the last 20 or so years, that distinction has become less and less visible.
To further complicate things, marriage itself isn't cut and dried. It's a privilege to be able to marry (for obvious reasons), but it's also a privilege to be able to choose NOT to marry. The ability to eschew the privileges that marriage provides a couple (particularly as they related to citizenship and/or visa status, hospital visitation, inheritance, etc.) is a (mostly class) privilege. So, for some, it's a double bind. And there are tons of political rationalizations that can be made in defense of marriage. For example, I was told that since I'm queer, my getting married to my male partner would actually be undermining marriage. But, for me, that feels like bullshit because I don't walk around with a big "QUEER" tattoo and people who don't know me read my relationship as heterosexual. So I don't think my singular actions are really undermining an institution.
I didn't intend to write this much, actually. This is just a subject that has been on my mind. Perhaps I'll try to turn it into something more cohesive.
I already made a number of comments in my reply to Lindsey upthread, but here are a few more.
First of all, for feminist wedding favours, you might take a similar route to a couple of friends of mine: at their wedding, everyone got a little scroll saying that a donation has been made in their name to Habitat For Humanity.
Second, I've found that being a heterosexually married couple is an excellent position from which to argue in favour of same-sex marriage. One of the social conservatives' favourite arguments is that same-sex marriage will "erode" opposite-sex marriage; it really throws them for a loop when straight couples say, "No, we don't want special privileges just because of our boy-girl plumbing; we want all of our friends to be able to marry if they wish."
Lastly: congratulations and best of luck!
This idea for wedding favors is a great one, especially because it can be a subtle statement on marriage itself if the donation goes to a queer org that advocates for gay marriage.
I did something similar, my father had passed a few months before our wedding from cancer so we made a general donation of what we would have spent on wedding favors to the American Cancer Society.
Congrats Jessica!
Totally agree with you on second point. I love the dumbfounded looks on their faces when I reply "I've been married for over 20 years and I cannot see any way in which a same sex marriage would impact mine. How would it impact yours?" Then these usually multiply married - but rarely lasting to the double digit length - folk have no answer.
CONGRATS!!
I agree that getting married ( or the tradition of marriage) is problematic for a feminist. But I think as feminist, our problem with many of these traditions is the silent acquiescence to which soon-to-be-brides have with traditions and customs that celebrate their subjectivity.
I love the glamor of the a wedding (hey its basically one big drag ball!) but I also love being subversive. I think one thing you should definitely do is give yourself away. You belong to yourself and rightly present yourself. And even on that note, not have you walk up the aisle but rather have you both walk up at the same time. It's a union of two individual equal partners.
Why give yourself away at all? Getting married doesn't mean "giving away" any part of yourself, only to continue to share yourself with somebody.
congratulations!!! i'm thrilled for you.
i was married for a little over a year, and though it didn't work out, i think it was one of the best things that ever happened to me in terms of what i learned about myself. it's a little weird....now, when people tell me they're getting divorced, i also congratulate them. because, to me, any sort of life change one makes for the better is worthy of congratulations. not to mention, i'm now in a wonderful relationship, and i don't know if i would have been ready for it had this "been my first rodeo".
lots of things contributed to the breakup of my marriage, but one area we never had any problems was in the area of mutual respect. both he and i are avowed feminists/humanists, and are very supportive of gay marriage. a feminist marriage is definitely possible! and i never bought the argument that because some women are oppressed in marriage that i shouldn't get married. some people suck at cooking. doesn't mean i do. so i cook.
your marriage is what the two of you make it....you're mot signing up for an external set of rules to be thrust upon you. don't have the ginormous wedding if you don't want to (i eloped the first time; next time, i want a bit more ceremony and gravitas.) i'm somewhat religious, and the act of uniting as a family in front of god is a powerful one for me.
Congratulations Jessica! Can't wait to hear more. When and how did you get engaged? Sorry, I'm sooo nosy...
Congratulations!
A subversive gift idea: ask your friends/family to take the money they would've spent on a wedding/bridal shower gift and donate it to a campaign to legalise gay marriage.
It seems like marriage isn't the problem-- it is weddings. I know that my bf and I, who've I've been living with for several years now, talk a lot about getting married... until we go to a wedding.
Marriage is almost easier to negotiate because the only two real stakeholders are you and your partner. Weddings, on the other hand, are all about OTHER people's expectations and traditions.
Good luck-- hope you'll share some of the conclusions you come to. It'll help the wedding-phobic but happily (hetero, anyway)-coupled of your readers.
Thought you might like this quote from the movie Frida:
http://vaselinetangerine.blogspot.com/2009/01/i-dont-believe-in-marriage.html
Excellent quote.
Congratulations Jessica! I know there is a lot of patriarchal nonsense wrapped up in weddings, but they really are a great way to have a huge party with your friends and family. I wasn't a feminist when I got married, but we were broke so we didn't have a huge 30k wedding- we rented a union hall, hired a self-employed inexpensive caterer, decorated with candles from the dollar store and I had an awesome time dancing with my husband and family. Your wedding (and subsequent marriage) can be whatever you make it and I wish you a long and happy marriage!
Congratulations!! I wish you two the very best.
Congratulations!
Congratulations! I love that his website, instead of describing you, just links to this one.
I got married last year, and I had a hard time finding a space to be happy about it without becoming obsessed. It was as if I either had to reject violently everything about traditional weddings or buy into them completely, becoming a brat in the process. Carving out a space in the middle (which I think most people do) feels harder. The point, though, is that both of these tendencies keep you focused on the wedding, which helps a lot of people make a lot of money but doesn't really help you.
So the only advice I have is to focus on the marriage more than the wedding. Nothing about your wedding day - not who officiates, not what you wear, not the favors, not even whether someone gives you away - will matter nearly as much in your life as how you deal with housework and how you help each other recover after a hard day. That doesn't mean you shouldn't think about all these things; there are some real feminist problems and opportunities in them. Just keep them in perspective. This seems obvious but can be hard to remember as you plan whatever kind of wedding it is that you want.
So... get pre-marital counseling. It doesn't matter how long you've been together. The point isn't really to discover potential problems; you probably know them, and are dealing with them, already. The point is to have someone involved in the process whose job it is to focus your attention on your relationship. A few sessions with someone you like are completely worth the money for that reason alone.
This is the first time I think that I have posted a comment..
Many congrats to you Jessica!
To share my story....
I've been married for nearly three years and we're slightly non-traditional, given the gender roles that many people still expect/adhere to here in the UK.
We got married at city hall in Portland, ME (I'm American, he's British). Our nine guests got about 3 days notice (typical phone call: 'Hey I'll be back in Maine on Friday for Spring Break and I'm getting married on Monday - want to come?'). The ceremony was about 30 seconds long with no rings (we bought them the next day). I originally wanted to go in jeans and t-shirts, but my husband insisted on wearing a suit. Therefore, I borrowed a dress from my brother's girlfriend's friend a couple days before our wedding.
Afterwards, we did a pub crawl with my dad and anyone else who could stay (due to the short notice, people still had to go to class/work, etc). It was a great day and exactly what we wanted. I've kept my last name and we share all tasks such as making dinner, cleaning the house, doing laundry, feeding the pets and cleaning out their litter trays, etc. :)
Aaaanywho, good luck with the planning and such and I wish you both a fabulous life together!
Totally off topic but if your cats go outside and you want to have children one day let hubby clean the litter.
Heh, no worries. We aren't having kids. :)
Congratulations, Jessica! I've never been so happy for someone I haven't met before!
If I was ever going to get married again I would so have an anti-wedding. It seems like there's so much you could tastefully do to challenge the gendered bullshit that surrounds weddings, and planning it would be kinda fun. But in honor of the occasion, a link to one of my favorite wedding blogs. Enjoy!
Congratulations to you both. I hope you enjoy the celebration and whatever adventures come after.
I don't think it's unwarranted to hesitate before sharing some personal stuff online, particularly when it involves the personal life of another person (as it does in any relationship!) It's different to share a personal experience without details about someone else's life, but different to make those decisions for someone else. My dad was a minister's son growing up, and he always hated it when his dad used family anecdotes in sermons. I think of that when I'm blogging, and try to make sure I'm not putting someone else in the public eye without their consent, so to speak. So yes, I think the personal can sometimes be legitimately private. Certainly you're the one who gets to decide where, when, and how it's made public.
Congratulations, Jessica! I'm a very happily married feminist. I believe that feminists can be married and remain feminists, the important part is to be married to another feminist! I don't think there's anything inherently patriarchal about marriage, as long as your marriage is a partnership of equals. And marriage is a wonderful thing, it's the ultimate commitment you can make to another person in our society--which is why everyone, no matter their gender or sexuality, deserves to be able to make that commitment if they choose. And I don't think there's anything inherently patriarchal about weddings either--ultimately, it's just a big party to celebrate your union. It depends how you do it. Make sure to have fun while planning your wedding (if you're having one) and enjoy yourself when it's happening. I think too many people these days have so much invested in their weddings as the "ultimate perfect day" that they're unable to enjoy themselves. We had a fabulous time at our wedding--my boss told me afterward that she'd never seen a couple look happier at a wedding. Best day of my life, other than the birth of my baby daughter.
Congrats again!
Hey jessica, congrats!But i have to know some thing... did you get an engagement ring?( i assume no because i've read your books and know your totally against them, as am I).I am also engaged, yet because I don't have an engagement ring, hardly anyone believes me. hey claim it's not a real engagement and it must not be serious because he didn't present me with a ring.He is a feminist also but his family is very against feminism and our beliefs ( they are very religious and are against abortion, not taking his last name, gay rights,sex before marriage,...) and dismissed the whole engagement as "not real"(even though i've been dating him for three years already and am completely in love with him).Can you (or anyone reading) let me know how you handle such arguements? any tips would be appreciated! congrats again!! :)
a couple of my friends are engaged, and they BOTH got engagement rings. So it's not a symbol of ownership or a modern-day dowry, but a mutual gift and symbol of their promise to each other. I thought it was a neat way to deal with the problem.
My BF and I also intend to exchange signs of our commitment to each other, rather than him marking me with a ring.
He also wants the experience of being proposed to. :)
Roll your eyes and ignore it. There are people on his side of the family pretty well convinced my husband and I aren't really married because the wedding didn't happen in a church. You can't live your life to please other people, and eventually they'll come around and accept it, or at least see that it's futile to argue and stop bringing it up.
Emmy, are your husband's parents also against feminism?How do you deal with it?I've only been a feminist for a few years so I suppose I'm still a bit new at it but I'm just so passionate about it (as is my boyfriend).I feel like when they say something negative or sterotypical about women(among other things),I have to get defensive.Which of course leads to fights with his whole family against us.I don't want to break him apart from his family(even though he says he sees our relationship together as more important).Is there a way for a happy medium?Because at the moment I'd rather just not be around them at all.Ever.Any suggestions?
If it's meaningful to you, get engagement rings. Otherwise don't bother. Personally, I found the idea of having one set of rings for the engagement and another set for the marriage to be kind of redundant. But some families have heirloom rings, or else want to create heirlooms.
And if the in-laws-elect huff about it not being a "real" engagement, my advice is to either:
1. State calmly, "I'm sorry you feel that way, but this is our engagement, not yours." Repeat as necessary. Refuse to be baited further about it.
2. Put on your most sappy, insulin-shock-inducing expressions and say dreamily, "It's real to us."
We had a similar problem, yet different. People actually dismissed our engagement cause the ring wasn't expensive enough (it was under $100). His grandmother doesn't even accept us as dating. Even my mom thought the engagement ring was a promise ring. Others said my fiance had to spend 6 months salary on the ring.
But I remind myself that it is for me to decide if I should engage in marriage or not. It's also my decision what the engagement ring means to me.
Wow, that certainly tells you where their priorities lie, doesn't it?
I think that a better thing to spend six months' salary on would be furniture or appliances. Oh wait... that would mean he's actually thinking about your life together, rather than about keeping up appearances.
The jewellery industry's Best. Marketing. Ploy. Ever!
Seriously, what other industry has managed to make investing large amounts of money into their product a matter of social concern where others will give you a hard time about not purchasing?
Hey Jessica! Congratulations - your partner is a very lucky guy. Got a couple of recommendations for you for you:
1) indiebride.com is a great website to find other feminists planning weddings and discuss everything from heterosexism to having a green wedding to napkin colors and back ;)
2) May I humbly suggest, in case you haven't considered it already, having a non-legal commitment ceremony instead of a marriage. This is what my partner and I did - he's straight and I'm bi, but the non-legal ceremony was the first time many of the people in our families really realized that queer people have fewer rights than straight people. My parents, because they are worried about their precious daughter (eye roll), now pay way more attention to gay rights than before our ceremony.
It sucks, of course, that my sweetie and I can't get health care for each other, etc., but I am unreasonably proud :) of the fact that I did not take on additional hetero privilege. As soon as everyone can marry, so will we!
Another advantage is that we never use the terms "husband" and "wife," and I find that not having access to those terms helps me fight to keep patriarchal norms out of our daily lives.
It's obviously a very personal decision as to whether or not to get legally married (we've come close to caving in a few times), and being married doesn't mean we can't still be allies, but I wanted to suggest this avenue to you in case you are interested in taking the risk of a non-legal commitment in order to make a statement for gay (and thus, at least in my view, feminist) rights.
Best of luck and congrats again!!!
Congrats! I have been really wanting a married feminist point of view on the blogosphere! Information on how to be in a happy marriage and be feminist at the same time is scarce.
MyEcdysis will be providing her analysis of being a married feminist soon.
I write about my relationship with my husband on my blog occasionally.
Congrats! I have been really wanting a married feminist point of view on the blogosphere! Information on how to be in a happy marriage and be feminist at the same time is scarce.
As much as I am tempted to join in with the congratulations, I really can't. I don't know you, and I wish you a good life, but I'm sorry--I think marriage is a flawed, fucked up, patriarchal institution and should be rejected by any thinking person.
Yes, the personal is always political. You can't get away from that. Marriage is too tied up with misogyny to ever be seen as an acceptable activity, for me. I do appreciate all of these comments, but I just can't get behind the idea of a "feminist marriage." To me, this seems like a feminist military or a peaceful war. Does not compute. When a woman tells me she's getting married, I usually say, "Oh,I'm sorry." Doesn't anyone here remember the idea that women are actually happier and healthier outside of marriage?
Sorry to be a wet blanket, but it's just my perspective. I rely on this site, by the way, to keep me sane. I still will-but marriage? No.
I surely hope you don't really say this because it's just rude and tacky. You don't have to agree with her decision but to just shit on her announcement like that is horrible.
"When a woman tells me she's getting married, I usually say, "Oh,I'm sorry."
ps. congrats Jessica. don't worry about whether what you're doing is feminist or not. you're happiness is all that matters.
You know, attacking me personally does no one any good. You can disagree with my ideas, but please. It may be tacky to eschew marriage, but its not as if I brought the subject up! Jessica's post invited each of us to give our two cents worth--so I did. I'm not shitting on her announcement--I'm just not falling all over myself to get excited about a traditional, patriarchal institution I don't believe in. I think that women, in general, are way too distracted by "romance" and all that comes with it--and if you disagree, that's your right. I support Jessica as a woman, and her ability to marry, but I can still disagree with her decision.
If I may, I'd like to recommend the loyal dissenter method of being opposed to marriage on principle, rather than the pee on someone else's joy one. There's so many legitimate reasons some might want to marry that to suggest that they don't know these is condescending. What I do is celebrate my friends' weddings with joy (Btw, congrats you two! Marc is stoked for you, too.) and simply don't marry myself. If someone asks me why, or I'm compelled to write about the topic, I say that I think it's a patriarchal institution with associations I can't get past. I suppose I'm fortunate to find a man who's right there with me.
But you know, honestly? Heterosexuality is a fraught state. I'm sure it's feasible and someone, somewhere has managed to find a way to create a heterosexual relationship that doesn't have issues due to the amount of social power invested in men that women don't have, but I fail to see how to pull it off without abandoning all joy in your relationship. The best you can hope for is two people who really do try, and a man who is willing to listen when his girlfriend/wife feels that he's abusing privileges in ways that are not to her benefit. But the idea that by simply avoiding marriage, you can avoid the pitfalls of heterosexuality, well, it's a fantasy.
I'm not sure, for instance, that being the girlfriend instead of the wife means that people aren't going to defer to my boyfriend's judgment more than mine. The one benefit you get is shocking the squares. Cohabitation is accepted now, but only if it's on the road to marriage. It's still funny how it unnerves people when you're like, "I'm happy as is, and I fail to see why I should change it."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a big part of feminism letting women choose to do what they want with their lives, whether it's to stay single, build a rocketship, sing in a rock band, adopt, not wear makeup, get married, etc.?
You don't have to get married yourself, but it SO turns me off when I hear feminists completely disparaging a choice that other women have made. "I'm sorry?" Well, that's an awesome thing to say.
I'm not sure most feminists would agree with your idea that feminism is about "letting" women do anything. Of course women should have choices in their lives, but being feminist to me means being able to critique and argue about the choices we make. I don't think marriage is a feminist choice--that's it. Feminism is not about "oh whatever women do is okay, they're women!" That's just a bit disingenous. Feminism is about decoupling our lives and selves from patriarchal traditions that enslave us to things that are not good for women. I know women who are strippers. I don't support what they do for a living, but I support their right to make that choice. Maybe they don't have as much of a choice as me, since I have more education than they do. The point is I don't think marriage can be saved from it's history and enmeshment with oppression and misogyny. I think Jessica is an amazing woman and I love her writing. Do I think she should get married? No, but luckily for her it's not my choice. How sad that if she wanted to marry a woman she couldn't. That's another issue, but one worth discussing. I'm just not convinced that such a decision should get such congratulations. It's not an achievement--it's a decision. To congratulate a women on an engagement is tantamount to saying "you caught yerself a guy! Good fer you!" I just don't buy it.
"I know women who are strippers. I don't support what they do for a living, but I support their right to make that choice. Maybe they don't have as much of a choice as me, since I have more education than they do."
whoawhoawhoaaaaa. way to make some HUGE assumptions about strippers and other sex workers. you assume that people who do sex work don't have as much of an education as you? and if they did, they wouldn't choose to do it? just because you wouldn't choose to do sex work doesn't mean that it is below you in some way. so please be aware of your condescending language.
i am 100% totally against marriage. i can try to get other people to understand why i am against marriage and talk about how it is important for all of us to resist all forms of patriarchy, capitalism, homophobia etc in order to make significant and lasting changes in our world. HOWEVER, unless someone else's choices are harming another living being (physical/emotional violence or infringing on the rights of others) then i have no justification in telling them what to do or how to do it.
that IS the beauty of feminism. because it is so fucked up for one of us to decide what feminism is and then declare that to be the "right" way and the way that everyone has to do it.
I was talking about a few women I know personally who are strippers, not ALL strippers. The dancers I know are HS grads--that's it. I wasn't making a generalization about strippers, just the two I know as friends.
"To congratulate a women on an engagement is tantamount to saying "you caught yerself a guy! Good fer you!" "
Or you could just consider it in the way it is usually intended? "Congratulations that you found the love of your life and have decided to be together always."
I congratulate Jessica on her engagement. I also congratulate anyone who has made a loving commitment to a partner, whether in marriage or not.
"To congratulate a women on an engagement is tantamount to saying "you caught yerself a guy! Good fer you!" "
Or you could just consider it in the way it is usually intended? "Congratulations that you found the love of your life and have decided to be together always."
I congratulate Jessica on her engagement. I also congratulate anyone who has made a loving commitment to a partner, whether in marriage or not.
Sorry, my eyes sort of glazed over and I went all drooly when I read the phrase "feminist military." Mmm, feminist military. ;)
"When a woman tells me she's getting married, I usually say, "Oh,I'm sorry." Doesn't anyone here remember the idea that women are actually happier and healthier outside of marriage?"
Not all women are unhappy and feel trapped in marriage. I do think it's possible to have a feminist marriage. The dynamic of my relationship with my partner has not changed. We are still equals and we respect each other. It probably helps that I married a feminist. I guess your response and initial reaction to someone saying that they are getting married is kinda shitty (especially if they are a friend) because it makes a lot of assumptions, like it the end of their happiness in general. Like their ambition will come to a halt because apparently nothing has changed since the Feminine Mystique in your mind. I am very much against people losing their identity and their ambition when they get married. One part of a feminist marriage for me is maintaining individuality and still having a life. Sure you have to talk about your choices with your partner, but you would do this any way if your were in a LTR and living with someone. My experience is that I am happier now than I was a 5 years ago (not because I got married, but because I have accomplished things and improved my life). I have plans for the future and I expect to continue being happy and accomplishing goals.
I support people choosing to enter in a legal contract binding them together if it works for them. I never saw marriage in my future because I hate the wedding industry but my partner and I already chose to be in a lifetime (we assume) committed relationship and we needed and wanted the benefits of a legal marriage. If we had the option of a civil union that had the exact same legal and medical benefits of marriage then we probably would have chosen that because we're agnostic. It's really what you make of it. It can be a feminist, happy union and it can also be a sexist contract with strict gender roles. Some people have miserable marriages and feel stifled and I don't think those people should be married or in their relationship. I don't think most people should get married because they do it for the wrong reasons; they don't want to die alone, they want a family, they want a wedding, it's a goal. I don't think these things lead to a happy marriage. I don't understand marriage as a goal that must be met. It weirds me out when people who are not in a good relationship or are single already have an age in mind for getting married and their wedding planned.
Isn't part of the point here that you don't have to feel unhappy and trapped in order to be oppressed by cultural institutions? Since moving to a more conservative part of the country, I've met a lot of women who both work full time outside the home and are responsible for all of the domestic labor in their home. They won't tell you they're unhappy or feel trapped, because they can't imagine life any other way. But they are stressed out, constantly plagued by guilt, and often suffering from depression to the point of needing medication. And national stats on the true and profound lack of equality in workload and economic clout in heterosexual marriages supports the idea that marriage is a long, long, way from being an institution that is not oppressive to women, regardless of what many individual women will say.
They might say they're content but I don't think being plagued by guilt or being depressed is happy. And part of being a feminist and in a feminist relationship is analyzing your relationship, power dynamics, gender roles, and your surroundings. I do this. I am a critical thinker and I work at not falling into false consciousness. Yes, a lot of people "choose" through social conditioning marriage (and other things) and end up reinforcing patriarchy; hence are subjugated and oppressed even though they think they chose their life. That being said, it is possible to be in a feminist and happy marriage. I have no doubt that Jessica will be able to do this because she is an activist and feminist scholar. I'm not going to say it's easy, as being a feminist in our society isn't easy. There is struggle, because you feel the need to put everything under a microscope and make decisions like how you run your household reflect gender equality.
My interpretation of Bethany's comments is that she's talking about script perpetuation, which is largely outside of the boundary of one's intention. The script in the US for a relationship to be considered legitimate requires courtship, a period of engagement, and marriage. This script positions heterosexuality as the only type of legitimate relationship, and those who choose not to marry struggle with people seeing their love as valid as well. So whether one's marriage is, for them, about love or money or citizenship is irrelevant to the way in which this script is being reproduced. The trick is about first being honest with oneself about one's place in all of that and then about reconciling the contradictions between one's personal actions/feelings/needs/desires and one's ideology. We all fall short of our own ideals, and that isn't, in itself, a weakness - nor does it means that our "cred" has been reduced or taken away. The world we live in forces us to compromise between the life we WANT to live and the life we MUST live.
Yeah, I'm not trying to say that it's not possible for individuals to negotiate their relationships in their own terms. But I do think that there's a lot of polyanna-ish thinking here and on other threads that claim that you can just sort of casually discard gendered values, behaviors, and conceptions that you've been socialized into since your birth, and be rid of them once and for all. For one thing, even if you could discard overnight all of the gendered bullshit you've internalized since birth, your friends and neighbors will be more than happy to continually judge you and try to fit you back into the neat little boxes. And it gets far worse when you have kids (other parents, and often teachers, suck so much ass sometimes!). So I do think it's possible to establish an equitable, self-aware relationship (I'm in a pretty good one myself, although we refuse to marry, in spite of the continual harassment on the subject), but not as easily and simply as many people who haven't tried it imagine.
Rachel,
From your description, it sounds as though you have a partner, and you two have at least one child. You may live under the same roof--again, something I got from your script. If this is the case, how is that much different, practically speaking, than being married? And how would making your common law marriage legally binding suddenly completely change the dynamic?
I think a lot of things are assumed in this conversation--especially how a woman's rights or individuality is INEVITABLY subverted the minute she marries. People in this thread have referred to marriage as everything from Polyanna-ish to misogynistic, but what most descriptors fail to elucidate is exactly how this is so--convenient, since any generalization you would make here could be easily picked apart.
Yeah - I think this is a very complicated topic, and one that many people are in a bit of denial about, and this thread was already super long and complex, so I was hesitant to go into it...
I do live with my partner, and we're raising my stepdaughter and our daughter together. In many ways, of course, cohabitation brings a lot of the same crap as hetero marriage, but I still refuse to marry (again) on principle, and because I hate all the shit that surrounds weddings in our culture. And in my experience, there is more flexibility in the roles and expectations of cohabitating couples. Although there's an equal amount of pressure to marry, and disapproval that you're not married...
The ways that marriage tends to disadvantage women are well documented and myriad. First there are the expectations, and accompanying disapproval if one fails to conform, that you'll follow traditional gender roles, that the wife's income is supplementary, and that she'll quit her job to relocate should his require it, that she'll always be the one to take time off work for the sake of children or relatives who need care, etc. For a woman, being married makes employers reluctant to offer you a job that requires relocation, on the assumption that your husband will not be willing to relocate. A married woman is far, far less likely to receive tenure on the conventional timeframe (and in fact, at all) in academic jobs, and I've been in faculty meetings where those on the hiring committee expressed reluctance to offer a job to a female candidate because they knew that her husband would not be receiving an offer in his department. When I pushed the issue, they admitted that they would not have the same concern if it had been a male candidate whose wife would not be receiving an offer. Then there's the fact that the woman is always, always, expected to take time off for the needs of children, while there is no reciprocal expectation for fathers. This disadvantages women in their careers, and the guilt that's placed on women for returning to work after the birth of a child causes many women to stay home if they can afford to, and further damages their career. Then there's the fact that if anything goes wrong with the children, or if the house is not kept up to Martha Stewart standards, the blame in everyone's mind is squarely on the woman. Of course, feminists are much more likely to reject these kinds of pressure, but it's inevitable that much of it will be/has been internalized. This is confirmed by studies that show the minuscule amount of domestic labor married men with wives who work fulltime outside the home engage in. Further, statistics show that women are much more economically vulnerable at the end of a marriage than those who remain single.
Some advantages of not formally getting married (I think) are that you're more likely to view yourself as being financially independent, the roles are less "set in stone" and therefore open to ongoing negotiation, and because you have to constantly justify your decision not to marry (not even "for the sake of the children"), the status of your relationship and the way it functions is more present in your minds and your day-to-day conversation. Of course, this comes with the disadvantages of less protection (such as access to each others benefits, inheritance, etc) that gay couples experience. But there are ways around these issues, and in my mind it's a small price to pay.
i am happy that an awesome person has found someone she wants to spend her life with (even though i suspect the decision did not just happen one day with the, er, 'popping of a question', as they say). congratulations on finding a great partner.
however, i think the congratulations for the wedding or a legal contract are strange. i find it interesting that no one ever congratulates straight or queer couples that successfully maintain a solid relationship for years-- UNLESS they have a big ol' party to officially announce the relationship. (and then, people ask them how long they've been married, not how long they've been in a committed relationship, even if that relationship started ten or twenty years before the "official" beginning- the wedding.) i just don't understand congratulating people for planning a party.
that said, i really think it's great that jessica is doing something that she feels is important in the progression of her relationship, and i appreciate her courage in putting her personal (political) stuff out here for people to comment one. seriously, you've gotta have some thick skin for that. it's an awesome opportunity to open up conversation, and i also think it's cool to hear some of the alternative and anti-wedding stuff that some of the commenters have done. it's also heartening to hear people who do choose to get married actually contemplating the meaning of the choice through a feminist lens.
See, if someone came up to me out of the blue and said, "I just want to congratulate you on staying together so long," my reaction would be, "What, are they implying that it was unlikely we'd stay together so long? That it's a rare thing for people like us? What?"
I think this is why rituals are important -- they remind us to pay attention to things we might otherwise take for granted, and give us a socially mandated opportunity to compliment or congratulate people without having them suspect us of ulterior motives. When we congratulate someone on their engagement, wedding, or anniversary, we're not really saying, "Kudos for the big party you're throwing/planning/threw ten years ago," you're bestowing compliments and good wishes for their whole committed relationship. That's my take on it, anyway.
That said, I don't think that couples who choose not to get formally married need to be excluded from this sort of ritual; I think that it would be good for them to develop new rituals for themselves. "Join us for our fifteen-year anniversary of cohabiting", maybe.
Putting aside one's feelings about the laudability of the institution of marriage, I think another problem here, as far as the whole congratulations thing goes, is that congratulatory traditions themselves have become outdated.
It would seem that women probably started getting congratulated on their engagements around the same time they started getting asked to marry (as opposed to being purchased or bargained for). The congratulations were for the woman securing financial support (since she was not often permitted to work for substantial pay), feminine reputation (since wedlock was the only arena where female sexual activity was permissible) and her station as a wife (respectability and honor). A breadwinning husband also ensured a certain quality of life for her children.
Later on, as marriage became enshrouded by romance (to disguise, in my view, its oppressive nature), congratulations we extended for "finding the man of your dreams." Courtships were, ideally, brief, purposeful, and resulted in engagement as soon as the woman was determined to be an adequate candidate for a wife and mother.
These days, premarital relationships are often several years long, making awkward the felicitations for "finding each other" (which happened some time ago). Congratulations for "taking the relationship to the next level" are often not even appropriate in many cases, since a marriage may not even designate significant lifestyle changes (ie., cohabiting).
So, even assuming your natural response to someone's engagement announcement isn't "Oh, I'm sorry" - in Jessica's case, what is it exactly that is being congratulated? I wonder what Jessica would suggest - and I think answering this question really illuminates some of the haze around the issue of marriage.
PS. My partner just told me that he would simply be congratulating someone on their happiness (assuming they seemed happy about their engagement). He feels that, unless you are certain or feel strongly that what the person is doing is definitely wrong, that a happy announcement may not be an appropriate moment to get political. I thought that was an interesting perspective. :)
Hmm. I'd always thought that men got congratulated on their upcoming marriages also. It is definitely true that more of a fuss is made over a woman's engagement and marriage, for the reasons you outline.
As to what I think the congratulations mean (or should mean, anyway), well... not to harp on the same chord, but let me bring up the "ritual" concept again. We know relationships are an important thing to be celebrated, but unlike births, there's no definite marker telling us "it began here". Many unmarried couples celebrate the anniversary of when they began dating, but for some even that is fuzzy. So an artificial marker is created.
It is more than that, though; as pointed out here, when a couple gets formally married, they're not just pledging a personal commitment -- they're calling on their community and society as a whole to recognize and support their relationship. And that last one is, I think, the biggest reason why having the right to get married is a major step in securing equality for LGBT people.
(As a side note, not everyone feels the need for their community to have a stake in their relationship, or they prefer to keep their public and private lives as separate as possible, or whatever. For those people, marriage would be an inappropriate choice.)
But why should the state be the "one" to recognize and declare certain human relationships valid?
Why isn't this the responsibility of local communities?
And why say 'congrats' to somebody who's choosing to take advantage of a privilege that's unavailable to LGBTQ people?
If you feel very strongly against state-sanctioned marriage, then by all means don't have one. But bear in mind that not everyone feels that way.
For the second part of your argument, I would point out that American straight couples refusing to get married isn't going to help American gay couples gain the right to get married. Nor is getting married an obstacle to fighting for same-sex marriage. In fact, as I and Homebird argued above, it provides, merely by example, a counter to one of the bigots' favourite arguments.
I wanted to add yet another CONGRATULATIONS! I think it's great when you find someone you love and who loves you back. Even though some people may choose not to get married and I firmly believe that same-sex couples should have marriage rights, I do think there can be feminist marriage/weddings. To me, a lot of feminism is about people being able to choose what they want to do with their lives, regardless of sex/race/ethnicity/disability/sexual orientation/gender identity/class/etc. Two adults who love each other and want to marry - well, I think that is a good and valid choice.
I'm a bisexual woman and I have struggled with the idea that I can marry a man if I want but if I happen to fall in love with a woman, we would be unable to wed (at least for now). One reason I would likely choose to marry a man (depending on who I end up falling in love with!) is that here in CA, same-sex couples and elders can get domestic partnerships, but not opposite-sex couples under a certain age (65, I think). The automatic recognition of a marriage in case of emergency is important as well, as other commenters have shown. Also, getting married to a man would not mean I would stop fighting for queer rights and I would definitely like to incorporate something to help same-sex couples get married into the wedding (donations to LGBT orgs, etc.).
Anyway, I am definitely looking forward to more blogging and discussions of weddings and marriage through a feminist and progressive lens. I think the more opportunities for open, honest, respectful, and diverse conversation about these subjects, the better!
Love is the best! Long life and happiness to you two.
Aw, congrats! My boy and I also just got "engaged" and are currently trying to figure out how to plan a subversive, feminist, non-traditional wedding (it starts with no engagement ring, which apparently means we're not really engaged...). Anyway, I wish you happiness and I look forward to hearing more about your engagement, wedding, marriage from a feminist perspective.
Also, Offbeatbride.com is a really good resource for nontraditional weddings.
i think its definitely okay to get married...after all, it's a choice that guarantees a lot of financial and political incentives. its legit to take advantage of those.
i am queer but i am personally against the idea of marriage. i think given our current political climate, it is important that all people have freedom to decide whether or not they want to get married but i think it is unfair that certain privileges are given to people who have that marriage certificate.
i think my advice for your marriage and wedding are to try to fuck with wedding commercialism, traditional roles within marriage and to really truly think about the reasons why it is important for you to get legally married.
we are all living within patriarchy and if we are not ACTIVELY working against patriarchal ideals then we are participating in perpetuating them. so i do believe that the personal is always political, even if it not publicized to a huge crowd of people. don't worry about what kind of criticism and judgment you will get from commenters or fellow feminists. be true to yourself and think about how your choices are affecting the state of sexism, homophobia, capitalism and the like. no one can be a perfect person who doesn't contribute at all, but you need to figure out where you can and where you can't work against patriarchy. it is clear that your life is committed to ending hate and prejudice and injustice so i dont have any doubts that you will consider very carefully how your wedding and marriage can be a part of deconstructing sexism and capitalism.
i have a feeling that you have thought about and will continue to think about these things.
finally, it is so wonderful that you have found love. congratulations :)
Felicidades! I wish the two of you all the happiness in the world. A feminist wedding and marriage are both absolutely possible, and I am sure you will find a way to do it that works for you.
I am happy for you Jessica.
I am going to be blunt. I agree with the strain of commentary that in some ways, a wedding is a wedding- there is no "subversive" way of having one. The wedding is largely an excuse to buy crap. The ritual of the wedding buys into the idea of "romantic" marriage. A marriage is a legal contract; it gives the parties certain privileges and rights, both good and bad. I personally think marriage still has the potential to hurt women. I would like to think there is a way to do it- I actually am engaged and intend to get married- but you need to think long and hard about what it means to get married. And I don't mean figuring out how to "reclaim" the wedding the way marginalized groups reclaim nasty words- it affects your legal rights and you should be familiar with New York state's Marriage and divorce law (which is the most restrictive in the country).
It does suck figuring this stuff out, particularly because I feel like no one takes a committed relationship seriously until you can call your partner your spouse.
If only my partner and I had the right to do the same.
I'm happy that you're happy. But I'm also feeling some disappointment. Marriage is one of the most flawed institutions that exists in our society, and the only way to change it is to operate outside of it - not join it. Your actions lead me to believe that you take on more a liberal feminist perspective, as opposed to radical. You seem to find flaws with patriarchy, but fail to find a way to bring it down. You came to a fork in the road - join it or operate outside of it and change it? I'm disappointed you didn't choose the latter. I know all feminists can't be perfect, but Jessica, I always saw you as a leader. I saw you as someone who could use her fame to promote feminist ideals. Like it or not, you're an example.
Ask yourself this: why do I want to get married? Is it because I really want to or because society tells me to? How would your relationship with your significant other be any less validated than if you chose to simply remain unmarried? I understand that having a ceremony and celebrating your love with your friends and family is appealing, but you can have a commitment ceremony without being a part of such a flawed patriarchal institution. I understand that a whole array of benefits come with getting married, and therefore being married is simply easier, but when has being a feminist ever been easy?
I'm not trying to judge. I'm merely analyzing a feminist issue. It's hard to operate outside the system, but unless we do it, we will never bring down patriarchy. Marriage is an enormously popular and solid patriarchal institution - it's going to take a lot to bring it down. Including the leadership of intelligent and committed feminists like yourself. I'm disappointed that you won't be joining us.
thank you looselips--I appreciate your thoughtful comments!
Looselips - I found your comment thought provoking. Specifically how would you suggest operating outside of marriage to change the institution of marriage? If you are referring to having a commitment ceremony instead of a wedding and not getting a marriage license, how does that change the institution of marriage? By trying to highlight the validity of non-married partnerships? I'm not being snarky or skeptical - I'm genuinely interested in what you're thinking of.
I do not dispute that those are valid, important questions, but don't you think it is a touch condescending to assume that Jessica did not think long and hard about those questions before deciding to get married? In your mind it may be impossible to think about that and still want to get married, but you are not every woman, just as Jessica is not every woman either.
Jessica continues to work on bringing the patriarchy down every day, and her marraige does not change that. I know tons of young women who have come to identify as feminists through this site, and it sucks to suggest that Jessica is no longer a role model for them because she has decided to do something that makes her personally happy in the process.
You are right that it is not easy being feminist, and it gets way harder when other feminists condescend to you because they disagree with a personal choice. Responding to Jessica's decision the way you did (note-not by being critical of the institution of marriage, which of course you should, but by assuming that Jessica threw out her principles in order to get married)you are totally buying into the sexist assumption that at the end of the day, she was willing to give up her principles for a good man. How sexist is that? Give the woman some credit.
It is so frustrating that even within the feminist movement we are judged more by the appearance of what we do than by the substance. Yeah, if look at their marriage on a completely superficial level, they look like two attractive people in a standard hetero relationship. But that is why you actually have to listen before you judge. I am so sick of feminists writing me off because my boyfriend and I look like a classic "all-american" couple until you actually hear either of us speak. Jessica should not have to justify her feminist bona-fides to you any more today than she did yesterday.
I knew someone would be upset by my comment.
My intention was never to condescend. Without a doubt, I believe that Jessica thought long and hard about it. I understand that this is a very touchy subject for feminists. Why would you assume that I don't know that?
I know that Jessica does many amazing things - I just feel that in order to truly change society, we need to work outside the system. Many feminists will agree that patriarchy is the problem, will agree that "the system" is fucked up, but will take no actual steps to bring it down.
That's all I was trying to do. I just wanted to call attention to radical views, which are often ignored. We get extremely caught up within the system, which is understandable, but we need to think deeper.
My reading of the comment was, that since your comment was addressed to Jessica and you said "ask yourself this," the implication was that she had not already done so, which I found condescending. If that was not how you meant it, I apologize.
I will say though, that I think it does come off as condescending when we assume that if someone comes out the different way on a question than we have, that it is because they have not thought about it enough. Reasonable minds can disagree about liberal vs. radical feminism (and I realize that there should probably not be a vs. there, as they can coexist and be uesful in different circumstances), but I think we create unnecessary division when those who tend to prefer one approach harshly judge the decisions of the other within reasonable limits.
I totally respect your view that working outside of the system is preferable, and I believe that for the time being I can do more good for women within certain aspects of it. I just hope that should we ever meet, you would not assume my decision stems from having thought less about it.
So is there something inherently wrong with being a liberal rather than a radical feminist? And did Jessica define herself as one, or did you?
No, there's nothing wrong with it. I didn't say that. Liberal feminists are great for establishing basic rights - it was liberal feminists who won women's suffrage - but in the end, if we really want to bring down the patriarchal institution that dominates us, we need to think radically.
Jessica never called herself a liberal feminist (to my knowledge) but from the views she has expressed in her many posts, that label comes to mind.
“The master's tools will never dismantle the master's house”
-audre lorde
Uh, it's short and pithy, but I don't think Lorde thought that one through enough. You certainly can take apart a house with construction tools. The trick, as in all things, is to know which tools to use and which to lay aside.
I guess I always thought it was metaphorical, in which case the fact that you can use actual construction tools to dismantle an actual house wouldn't invalidate her argument...
Of course it's metaphorical. My point is that the metaphor doesn't work.
Yeah, a metaphor is a way of saying Thing One is like Thing Two, and if Thing Two isn't true, what does that say about Thing One?
I much prefer the line from one of my profs from back in the day: "If we're going to try and deconstruct the house while we're standing in it, we'd best do it carefully."
To be more precise: I think that if we closely examine the metaphor, it actually says the opposite of what Lorde intends: You can destroy the master's house using the master's tools, but you must know which tools to use and which to lay aside, as well as how best to apply the tools for your purpose. And I think that applies to social institutions as well.
Yeah, this is a complicated topic that I've thought about a lot. As a very active environmental activist in my teen and undergrad years, I also had a lot of friends who were anarchist. The groups that I worked with were mainstream activists who believed that existing institutions and practices were flawed, but fixable, while my anarchist friends viewed them as inherently unjust. After spending years fighting to reform these institutions, I'm much more sympathetic to the more radical view that often our existing institutions have come out of deeply unjust social contexts, and are thus themselves inherently (or at least irreparably) unjust. That doesn't mean that I completely agree with anarchists and radical feminists, but I often see the wisdom in what they say and am sympathetic to views like Lorde's. Sometimes, just partaking in the unjust practice or institution itself in some way supports it, and attempting to use "the master's tools" to dismantle the institutions just lends validity to the tools themselves.
That being said, I generally play devil's advocate, or at least try to moderate the discussions concerning radical feminism, because I think radical feminism has an important role to play and contribution to make, which is too often overlooked by liberal feminists. And the reaction to radical feminism is so often really emotionally intense and has a silencing effect, which I think is unfortunate. I realize that the topic of marriage and family is a very personal, and hence emotional one, but the defensive tone I often perceive is disheartening, as I think that open minds and constructive dialogue is essential.
Thank you looselips and bethybethybethy. You're right; the radical perspective is too often totally overlooked. I was feeling so frustrated by all of these congratulations comments, and it was refreshing to see yours in the mix.
I know someone will criticize me for not being supportive, but it's so hard for me to be excited. I can do supportive, but I can't do excitement. I see feministing as a place to speak and discuss things frankly and honestly. And if I'm being honest, I'm not excited about one of the most well-known and well-respected feminists of my generation doing the marriage thing.
Although my boyfriend and I have decided not to get married for a variety of reasons (I wouldn't have changed my name, we're not religious, I can't get over the fact that the origin of the institution is extremely patriarchal, etc.), I congratulate you on your decision.
I think one of the wonderful things about feminism is that it's not a "one-size fits all" movement. It looks differently to different people, and that's okay... the dialogue that is created by these differences is what leads to change.
I'm sincerely looking forward to your future posts about marriage from a feminist perspective.
Congrats!
A sporadic lurker here...saw the news at Eschaton.
That is a lovely post, and I wish you both well.
Single here, creeping up on 50, never married (close maybe 1.5 times) and basically happy.
At least 51% of the time, I figure.
It's just a different set of problems, really, is all it is in the end. You just get to share them and work through them with someone else, which I suspect/observe makes it proportionately more difficult and more rewarding. It looks to me from the outside that if you get it right marriage is fantastic.
And there are no rules other than the ones you make for yourselves, from engagement forward. THAT, my dear, seems (again, from the outside) to be the The Big Secret to the good ones.
Congratulations! I'm not quite in the getting-married-age in my life yet, but already I am worried about what to do and how many fights will start because of my not wanting traditional stuff. I'm sure you'll pull it off wonderfully, and I too am interested in reading what you will post in the near future. ^_^
Congratulations! No advice, just have fun and do it the way you want to. It's your marriage, after all. Mazel tov to the both of you.
Congratulations to Jessica and Andrew...
congratulations!
Congratulations, Jessica. I'm thrilled for you both.
Congratulations!
Congratulations!
For us, getting married was a way to declare our commitment before everyone who matters in our lives. The public pronouncement means something to us, and with it, all of the witnesses to the ceremony (about 40 people) feel a sense of responsibility to support the union. It felt almost like a magik rite: the love and energy of all of our loved ones coming together to weave us and, through us, our families, together. It was powerful, and I am proud to say that in my home state of Maine, legislation was just introduced to make it possible for all couples in love to marry if they choose.
I'm a little intimidated to say it, but I don't understand why there is such trepidation and negativity around marriage. Just becuase some shoes are awful doesn't mean you go barefoot all the time. Each couple has the power to make their marriage what they want it to be.
May you have many years of joyous sharing. Best wishes!
I believe it was Miss Manners that said "The only appropriate response to the words 'I'm pregnant' is 'Congratulations!'" The same should apply to an engagement announcement.
Congratulations!
Ah, Miss Manners - that feminist paradigm. ;)
(Imagining the zillions of instances documented on this site where "Congratulations!" would be the exact opposite of an appropriate response to "I'm pregnant"...)
Those of us who are married to our blogs salute you.
For real, congratulations!