Hah! I wrote a community post about a similar dining experience. Really bizarre.

I have no freaking idea.

*shakes head* *deep sigh*

Tangential but also similar:

The other day in my graduate class myself and an undergraduate male student both raised our hands to ask questions. Really, he raised his first, so I deferred to him, but he also tried to defer to me. The professor then said "ladies first" and looked at me...and I was floored.

It's a classroom. Why the hell should I go first? The other student barely talks in class whereas I ask questions every day--he should go first if we're playing the politeness game.

So ya, in public, treating people differently (especially in terms of politeness) based on their sex I think is offensive and just not well thought out, no matter how well-intentioned it is.

Also (last rant I swear) I *HATE* it when guys are about to walk into a building in front of me, stop, hold the door open at a weird angle, and wait for me to walk in. Not only does it feel really weird to be singled out by a stranger and treated differently because of my gender, but they WASTE MY TIME by not just walking into the damned building. (So this is partly a female and partly a New Englander city-dweller rant).

So did you say anything? A question like "The lady? Are you talking to me?" might have made the waiter see his mistake. I try to use feigned confusion as a polite way of pointing out such mistakes. In this case it would have been actual confusion.

"pretty nice place" => formal => Victorian era?

I've heard similar things spoke to guys as well - "How does sir like his steak etc". My guess is that it is a way phrasing a question to be less direct in an attempt to be more polite and courteous.

That said I think the proper phrasing would be madam, mademoiselle, lady, miss, mr, sir, etc etc depending on context rather that plain he/she which is confusing in this context. I can't see this as being anything more than a grammatical error and inexperience on the waiters part though - it sounds as if they are trying to be polite, but using slightly the wrong phrasing with disastrous and comedic effect.

I think the difference shown to you and your partner ironically might actually be that the waiter was attempting to show you more respect and courtesy than to your male companion.

I would've said "Does the waiter expect a tip this evening?" ;)

Seriously though, maybe he thought he was being uber-charming and oldy-worldy, which some people eat up. Or maybe he was just British.

I read this article (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/08/dining/08gend.htm) recently about how some of your nicer snootier restaurants still require their waiters to use old-school sexist serving ettiquette -- always taking the woman's order and serving the woman's food first, even seating woman in a particular place in relation to the room or giving them different menus. Maybe this is part of that old style?

sounds a lot like this article!

"Old Gender Roles With Your Dinner?"
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/08/dining/08gend.html

I would have started referring to myself in third person. "Oh you don't have to say lady, you can call Anna 'Anna'." "Anna would like more water, please." "Can Anna get some Ranch with that, please?" "Anna and (friend) are ready for the check, she'd like to thank you."

Of course, then I'd be thought of as a bitch. XD

It IS pretty shocking behavior, but I'd reserve blame for the restaurant/food culture itself. Depending on how nice (expensive) the restaurant was, the guy was probably trained to speak that way, and, while I see the merit in trying to subvert that expectation (either by approaching his managers about it or by simply not doing it), the guy's gotta work. Plus, there are probably people of previous generations who EXPECT that sort of treatment in a restaurant, and might be offended if he DIDN'T speak that way. Being a waiter -- not that I've ever done it, thankfully -- seems to be an exercise in walking the fine line.

But to expand the issue a bit, for example, I'll sometimes hold a door open for an older woman because I feel like, according to their cultural rules and regs, that's the courteous thing for me to do. Since its such a fleeting gesture, there's really no time to engage a dialogue about equality and why, under other circumstances, I might NOT do that. I sometimes feel like I'm putting my gender ideology aside to placate other peoples' sense of decorum. What do you all think?

Ok, quick transcription of the basic forms of etiquette that I learned a long time ago.
Please note this does not convey my opinion, just the etiquette I was taught.

The custom is traditional, and predates the Victorian era by quite sometime.
The reasoning behind:
1) The gentleman accompanying the lady should 'wait' on her, meaning that it was his job to arrange everything to her liking. This includes talking to 'the staff'.
2) It was not done to talk to a lady in company. in some cases it will get you in trouble with the man. nowadays this might be a bad tip (it is apparently still traditional that the man pays), and in older times, a severe beating or worse.
3) When addressing the lady in question, this would be done by title. Nowadays we don't deal well with titles, thus 'her ladyship' (which is a direct form of address) is no longer used. I suppose "the lady" could well be a haphazard adaptation from that.

The more common modern way to deal with this is to first address the table: "Is everything to your liking?", and then looking at the primary couple in turn saying "Sir? Madam?" Or in younger/clearly unwed cases "Sir? Miss?"
The order is a remnant from he older tradition, but it should be noted that this should be asked quick enough so that it is clear that both are addressed at the same time. The only case where the lady is addressed first, should when she is the senior person of the company, in a decidedly matronly role (thus not when she is with a younger beau).

In Chinese culture, addressing someone in the 3rd person is a polite form. I used to talk to my grandparent's generation this way, back when they were alive X_x. Sometimes I wonder how globalization affects our culture, but that being said, if the waiter was trying to be sensitive to Asian norms, he should have addresses your friend the same way.

Honestly, I don't think people know what to do anymore in the name of courtesy, and it stands out sorely in places with snooty conventions. We don't live in that world anymore, and I seriously don't think the waiters know how to behave, living in America, 2008 and then going to work in whatever-the-hell-era the restaurant is functioning in. They should just aim for gender-free consideration.

That's really annoying. That happened to me in a nice restaurant too - instead of "the lady" it was "mademoiselle", and the place wasn't even French! I also was in a '50s-style diner recently where the waiter kept calling me "sweetheart". I guess they were trying to make the experience as authentic as possible?!
I have to say though, the most irritating sexist thing I've encountered when dining out is when a male server comments on how much I've eaten without saying a word to my fiance, who has eaten the same amount or more. I've heard "Wow, you really cleaned your plate" or "I'm amazed you were able to finish all that". WTF??? Just because I'm a woman doesn't mean I don't have a healthy appetite - quite frankly from time to time I like to enjoy the huge portions some restaurants serve. I feel like he's implying that because I'm female I shouldn't be eating so much - I should just take a few dainty bites of a small salad, because, you know, it's not "ladylike" to chow down and have a rich full meal.

That seems weird for Denny's.

In English, using the third person is an extremely polite, though rather obsolete, form of address. Rather like "Would your majesty/his lordship like more tea?". At one time it was common throughout Europe. It persists in German where "they" is the formal "you" (it's the pronoun for something like "your lordships/ladyships"). It's also still current in Italian where the singular formal "you" is "she" (for both men and women, because "your lordship" is feminine). Thus, an Italian waiter, wishing to be polite, would ask either a man or a woman "Would she like more tea?".

The bizarre thing is, the restaurant probably makes the waiters talk like that because it's "polite". As if it was better to offend your customers than to break a rule in some dusty old book on manners.

I think there's a place where these kind of manners might be appreciated: the dining room in the senior citizen's home, and any restaurants that might cater to time travelers from the H.G. Wells era.

I wouldn't automatically assume they were holding it for you simply because they are male and you are female. That's one of the funny things I noticed while in college. For all the reputation of college-aged people being impolite, on my campus it seemed like nearly everyone held doors for other people. There's a fine line between noting the subtle ways that sexism are expressed in daily interactions and just looking to be offended.

I would have taken him aside and told him how off putting that was and that I was one of 3 contributors to his tip from out table.

If he dismissed me again, I would have a conversation with the front of the house manager.
If the manager was anything less than appalled or gave the slightest hint that she/he didn't care-
being you, I would add that I have a readership of women who would find this information useful when choosing a place to dine with friends.

I don't think this really applies to the post, but it is an interesting thing none the less. In some languages, mainly the ones where there is still a formal and informal form of address that is used in everyday language, formalizing someone who you would never formalize is a way of flirting. For instance, if I were to go up to a girl my age in one of my classes and say "would it please her not to mind if i sit here" the girl would either smile and say yes or politely say no. The formalizing is as far as I am aware about patronizing or anything like that, it is simply about saying "let's flirt, you game?" The point is that for many people, formalizing like that and using the third person is a normal part of everyday conversation. So when we hear things like this, one of the first questions we should ask ourselves is simply if that is a normal part of this persons first language and if it means anything beyond common curteousy or a common way to flirt or something in a form that we don't recognize.

While I would totally go after the waiter as previously stated in my comment-
when it comes to
holding doors open, helping hoist things into the over head compartment, addressing me as miss or ma'am-
I love it.
It's part of the culture in NOLA and I miss it sooo much.
Niceties, charm, grace, courtesy, call it what you will, I admit, it puts a spring in my step.

Having been a server, honestly, the server probably was instructed to address Courtney in the way he did, and would just as soon 'drop it' if politely asked.

I was trained at every restaurants to serve women first, etc, and did it because that's what most people expect. The shitty thing is that what is super-polite to one person (adress in third person) is offensive to someone else.

I don't think the thing to do is ever get upset with a server until after you've made your wishes clear and you've been ignored. To ask to be addressed the same way a man would be, for instance, would not be rude (I don't think).

Waiters, at the end of the day, only want to make money (and give people a pleasant dining experience) so it's almost never sexism or personal feelings about gender roles that are dictating their action, more likely standard practices and restaurant policies. It's never standard procedure to be a complete jerk, but there's a difference between ignorance/following obnoxious policy and being a big asshole.

We got in a bit of a heated discussion about this in my psyc. of gender class, so I know it makes a lot of women angry to be treated differently by their male counterparts. Don't take it out on the server, though, instead tell the server and manager that you don't appreciate it, and tip according to your service (promptness, accuracy, etc). If you just don't tip, the server won't understand why, and they will probably ended up paying for having waited on you as we are taxed according to a percentage of our sales, and not what's left on the table.

Just thought I'd let you know.

I'm glad someone else is talking about this. I work weekends at a restaurant run by a very progressive and quirky couple. I hate to give classifications, but to paint a better picture, she is a feminist hippie and he is an anarchist punk and they are both well educated and good friends of mine.

Imagine my surprise when I was instructed one morning to "always take the woman's order first, serve her food first, and never clear any plates until the woman is finished eating."!

After the initial shock wore off, I said something about not being able to swallow that bullshit, and my male boss said to me, "it's old-fashioned, whatever, but it's what people expect, and it will make you and us more money."

I have never gotten over it, and frequently argue my point on the offensive nature of it, but I do it, when it's convienient, because they are my friends and it is their restaurant.

I do find it funny though, that when a male customer recently called me "little lady", and my response was something about my actually being quite tall and not much of a "lady", they thought it was hysterical and didn't reprimand me at all.

I hope you talked to management.

In regards to servers serving/seating women first-

I am a woman and I am also a server. A lot of our customers are repeat customers and the restaurant is over 30 years old. With a table of 2 (man and a woman) I will generally try to pay more attention to the women. I will try to get their order first and make a lot of eye contact. This eliminates any chance that she'll think I am flirting with her dude she's with. This sounds weird, but sometimes if the guys pay any amount of attention over just ordering, some of the women get mad. This is even funnier when you take into account how hideous our uniforms are. In a large group, I generally go left to right clockwise when taking orders. But sometimes ladies just want a little extra attention. And that's ok!

I would say to cut the guy a break on the chance that he is old school and for some people, that was more respectful. Speak up next time and address him directly. I don't think if he knew it bothered you he would have done it. It is weird though, for this..decade.

That always irritates the piss right out of me.

I'm right here! You can talk to me!

Plus, I am pretty sure I am not much of a "lady" anyhow...whatever that is supposed to mean...

I had a old British physics prof who would call me Miss Such-and-such and all the others (all male) just by their surnames. I didn't mind as otherwise he seemed to have high expectations of me and thought I could do the physics. I held the door open for him and he protested that he'd been taught to hold doors for ladies. To which I replied, "I was taught to hold doors for my elders, so I guess we are at an impasse."

I think people in the service industry have tough jobs and should be given the benefit of the doubt as they don't have much power. Since he could have been instructed to speak this way, perhaps a clear, but friendly response like, "The lady would prefer to be addressed directly like any other adult," with a smile would do.

I don't know Ladies..I'm so constantly offended by deliberate insults to my intelligence (such as the billboard for "vaginal rejuvination" I have to drive by every mrning, for instance)that I don't really think this warrants anger. I think this was just this man's misguided attempt at politess. It certainly wouldn't anger me or prompt me to run to the manager. Why not just drop a casual hint along the lines of "You know, I'd prefer you call me "insert name here?"

As a server, I only worked in "fine dining" for a relatively short amount of time, but I can tell you that it's not necessarily fair to blame the waiter. In some restaurants the management expects a certain type of service to be offered, and unfortunately in many establishments "fine dining" style service is pretty sexist.

Small examples of this are that, for instance, I was instructed to always serve the ladies at the table first, then make another circle around the table to serve the men. same for refilling wine glasses.

In some restaurants, servers are instructed to expect a male to order for a female he may be with. I wouldn't be surprised if this server was given some kind of vague order such as "refer to the female guests as 'lady' as often as possible". I've heard of some weirder demands from management.

Basically, i agree that it's condescending and sexist as all hell, but it may not be the server's fault.

I think people have an obligation to boycott such restaurants (or at the very least not tip the waiter or ask whom he's referring to by asking 'does the lady....?') if they receive such treatment. There's no excuse for referring to anyone in the third person at any establishment, however aristocratic.

Tipping poorly or not tipping at all would be extremely rude. As a "retired" server, I'm 99.9% certain that this waiter was instructed to behave this way, and it was not his own mannerisms. It's certainly worth complaining to management, but it's nothing to do with him.

I have to agree with the people who said that it's likely this waiter was told to do that by management. I've worked in pubs, family restaurants, and even a nightclub. Each and every one of those places, no matter how informal, instructed me to do the same. "Always serve the lady first, take her order first, hand the checkbook to the man", etc. I just set the checkbook at the edge of the table between the couple, because I never assume the man is going to pay. I do try to make it so neither can see the total unless they actually pick it up and open it, so the person paying can hide it if they choose.

I always did the serving the lady first/taking her order first/talking to her more thing because I was instructed to, but I began to do it naturally for a couple of reasons. Someone mentioned earlier up that if you talk to the man too much, some women think you're flirting. I encountered that problem many, many times in my 8 years in the business. Also, there are still many women who expect this kind of treatment, and not just older women. Most of the time, it's just safer to go with this route than to fight it.

He also may have been trying (misguidedly) to be polite, as several people pointed out. Or he may be somewhat socially inept. Some people really don't understand how to address women, and so many women prefer to be addressed so many different ways it can get confusing.

And, of course, it could be sexism. He could be one of those who chooses to address your date and not you.

The truth is, we don't know his motivations. We can speculate all we want, but we'll never really know unless we ask. But if it bothers you, you should definitely speak up and say something. Chances are, he may not even realize he's doing it if it's been ingrained to the point that he's on autopilot. Letting him know it bothers you gives him a chance to fix the problem.

As a bartender, I agree that the waiter was probably following instructions. Addressing anyone in the third person is weird and very unnatural nowadays (even here in Britain!). If you said anything to the waiter he would probably have been mortified and changed his behaviour immediately, I know I would.

It's generally safer in the service industry to use the most polite form of address (I use Sir and Ma'am for all strangers, after a while it's Darling and Sweetheart all the way, for all genders) until told otherwise - like calling your partner's parents Mrs and Mrs Whoever until you're given permission to do otherwise. We're only trying to please the most people.

Basically, while almost everyone I know in the service industry is feminist-friendly, they don't know you or what is likely to offend you. Gently let them know and they will change. We only want you to have a good night and leave a good tip!