Wha??? I really admire Helen Mirren, or I used to...

Wow... Helen Mirren has said some pro-woman things in the past so this kinda of surprises me but I guess it goes to show that just because you're a woman doesn't make you a feminist.

she's just expressing her opinion. I rolled my eyes when I saw this on Women of Hollywood, but hey, it's her opinion.

Sigh.

isn't she just saying that female jurors that blame the victim are acting out biological jealousy mechanisms rather than being fair and rational? this doesn't seem to be an attack on rape victims or female jurors in general, but a subset of them that tends to blame the rape victim rather than the aggressor.

Her opinion it may be, but just because it is somebody's opinion does not make it sacred and immune to criticism. It was, opinion or not, a stunningly stupid and harmful thing to say. And she deserves every metaphorical whack upside the head she gets for this.

Sad, too, cause I really liked her as an actress, and thought of her as a role model.

Unfortunately, it's true that female jurors are significantly more likely to vote against convictions and engage in victim-blaming.

I can't believe Helen Mirren wouldn't take two seconds to find out the reasons for that behavior, though. She is from a very different generation, I guess. Sad when a public figure makes hateful statements so flippantly.

Yes, yes, it's all in the genes.

It has nothing at all to do with social conditioning.

i guess i don't consider it anti-woman or especially anti-victim (she's not addressing the victims in any way). just a dumb theory she came up with, and had a chance to say out loud.

God, being the voice of dissent is tiresome.

I didn't read where Helen validated the biases of some female jurors. She merely stated that it seems to her that certain jurors have certain biases that can (negatively for the victim)impact how a defendant's actions are judged. Saying that such things exist is not akin to extolling their virtue. Whether we want to admit it or not there are a lot of people who use that primitive reptilian part of their brain when making decisions, despite their best intentions to be logical and balanced. It is incredibly naive to suggest that there are no women who resent a younger/prettier/hotter bodied/better dressed female that perhaps reminds them of the women they catch their husband's lusting after on the internet. It is more than possible that some of those women see rape as payback for a woman having the nerve to look sexier than them and taking attention away from them. I said some, not all.

Besides I think a lot of women are subconsciously controlled to some degree by the dormant threat of rape in our daily lives. They look for any reason that it wouldn't happen to them. "I won't get raped because I never _______________(wear those clothes, go out at night alone, drink too much at parties, fill in the blank). They are offering themselves a very false sense of security and unfortunately revictimize victims when they do so.

There's another Dame Helen quote (from the article to which I responded with my "Friday (tattooed) Feminist Fuck You" a couple weeks ago) saying something to the effect that she's so much better than all the other tattooed women cause she was drunk and stupid when she got her tattoo -- and of course, she's a badass. It was just so condescending... that, combined with this stuff makes me think that Dame Helen doesn't really have any respect other women at all.

I wish female celebrities wouldn't say things that are harmful to womankind. Ugh. Who would be sexually jealous of a rape victim?

The idea, They just bring it on themselves, is still alive and well, it seems -- not just through Helen Mirren's comment, but also in college settings. After watching Sut Jhalley's "Dreamworlds 3" about women's portrayal in music videos, one female student asked about a particular section that showed footage from the June 11, 2001 incidents of mass sexual assault in Central Park at the Puerto Rican day parade.

The comment posed by the female student: "Well, they were dressed pretty scantily. I mean, they were in short dresses and shorts and tight shirts. You mean, they couldn't just expect that to happen? Weren't they asking for it?"

Immediately "My Short Skirt" comes to mind.....

"sexually jealous"
What is that even supposed to mean in this context? That they secretly wanted to be raped themselves? (a claim I wouldn't be surprised to hear from this sort of person)

This comment is about semantics.
Usually with (newspaper) headlines, using a colon after a person's name means the quote is attributed to them. Eg... Mark Twain: Buy Land, They're Not Making It Any More.
Wheras if your headline (as here) is a imperative statement, you should use a comma. Mark Twain, buy land. (Mark Twain, [you ought to] buy land.)
Headline writing is tricky, but I thought I should let you know I had to read the head and the first couple lines of this piece several times before figuring your intentions out.

Yeah, the problem here is not that she's pointing out that female jurors engage in victim-blaming, it's her explanation of it. To say that women who have not been raped are jealous of women who have been raped is to say that rape is seen by women as a compliment. It's the same idea behind insults that that woman is so ugly, no one would want to rape her (except this time, with emphasis on the female instead of the male point of view). It's based on the false notion that rape is motivated by lust, but that's not my main problem with it since the female jurors may well buy into that false notion. But I don't think many of them wish they would be raped so they would feel sexy. And even if she was just saying that this is the way people think even though they're wrong, it's not cool to say that without clarifying the difference, since these misconceptions are so popular and so harmful.

This is why I wish that actors would just shut up unless it's about the roles their playing. Just because you're public doesn't mean you're smart or that we need to hear your inane prattling.

Before we continue assuming that Helen Mirren is factually accurate in saying that female jurors tend to rule in favor of defendants, does she (or anyone) have any data showing that to be the case? Do female jurors tend to lean one way or another in rape cases--or do they generally have the same record as male jurors?

Before we continue assuming that Helen Mirren is factually accurate in saying that female jurors tend to rule in favor of defendants, does she (or anyone) have any data showing that to be the case? Do female jurors tend to lean one way or another in rape cases--or do they generally have the same record as male jurors?

It's probably not so much "sexual jealousy" as the way the defendant's lawyers pose it. They are allowed to basically tear the woman's story apart until the jurors hear about a woman who sleeps with everyone and slept with the poor man to get back at him for a personal vendetta.

I think the problem is not that, but that a male juror will expect a woman to be a victim, while a woman will not particularly, and will look at it a bit more even-handedly. A woman is less likely to assume the female victim is, in fact, a victim by the basis of the fact she is a woman, and thus, will not assume the big bad lawyers are picking on her. In addition, on average men are more likely to want to "punish" criminals while women are more likely to feel bad for them and not want to be the one sending them to jail. Thus, the defendant's lawyer is pretty easily able to portray the criminal as the victim to tug on heartstrings. It does have one advantage, though-- with half male and half female jurors, a person is more likely to get a fair trial because an all male jury could be more likely to send an innocent person to jail, and an all female jury could let them go. For now, at least. Ultimately, I'm hoping the law will change how defendants are allowed to address victims.

How vile. Mirren is not just expressing her "opinion" here; she is speculating (using sexist assumptions) about something of which she's uninformed.
An opinion would be "This phenomena is depressing."
Mirren is making shit up that perpetuates myths about rape. "Sexually jealous??" Way to go, Helen. Because rape is a compliment that women are honored to be paid. It's fucked up attitudes like that make people doubt rape victims who aren't conventionally attractive. Because what guy would rape an ugly chick!?

Mirren's comments about women make me think she's one of those women who proudly calls herself a "guy's girl" because, y'know, women are so catty and it's impossible to be friends with them. :eye roll: And she doesn't get along with other women because they're all jealous of her - not because she has a crap personality.

Aside from all the things good or bad about her making this statement and what it implies, I am really concerned about all the people that look up to celebrities. They have an air of authority that makes what they say "true." "Well, Helen Mirren is smart and popular and a good actress and she said that date rape shouldn't be in the courts. She must have a good reason for saying that."

On top of that, what right does she have to be talking about things that I can only assume have never been a part of her life? I know it's wrong to assume but I have never encountered a woman who has been through sexual abuse that thinks it's all just drama and jealousy. As Rachel in Friends said, "no uterus, no opinion" when Ross said her labour pains couldn't be "that bad." Helen Mirren, no rape, no opinion. Sorry to tell you that, but nuh.

On a final note, if she has had experience with sexual abuse, I cannot imagine what took place to cause her to have these sentiments. That would be a very disconcerting situation indeed and I hope she is trying to deal with it.

Lindsay, she actually has been date raped (possibly twice). I read something about her parents dealing with it "discretely" but I'm not sure if that part of the story was speculation or not. It would explain a lot. I'm almost positive that the part about her being a survivor is true though.

The sexual jealousy thing is ridiculous. Just another example of everyone trying to pit women against each other.

If there is a reason for female jurors being less sympathetic to rape victims (other than just being more sympathetic to defendants generally) I think it's most likely due to an underlying fear of rape and wish to maintain a sense of control. A lot of women really don't want to see themselves as unequal or in danger, and denial works pretty well for that.

Her comment just confuses me. My first thought was that she was saying that on some evolutionary level, female jurors are jealous that the rape victim has a greater level of reproductive fitness or something. And maybe that is what she is saying, but if it is then well, I'm not even going to bother going into all the reasons why her logic is off.

My point is, she should really just stop saying anything remotely political.

I've always had the impression that she is still trying to come to terms with her own rape and how it was handled. I personally know an older British woman who was almost raped (she had a knife and was able to defend herself and get away) and given the culture at the time it happened, she lost almost everything in her life. The guy didn't even get reprimanded. So, I don't exactly think the culture at the time would have helped her handle it well. I could be wrong of course, but it has just seemed to me that is why she spouts off like this.

Date rape isn't really rape. Everyone knows this, even female jurors. What's your deal? First rule of contract law: Silence is consent.

Is it the mans fault if both parties are equally intoxicated and they both go through with it, and he doesn't force her physically in any way, and she never protests?

No.

Is retroactive guilt on the part of EITHER party enough to constitute a rape claim?

No.

Is feeling bad normal after a one night stand?

In most cases, absolutely. Feeling bad about a decision you made doesn't constitute rape. If this were the case, there'd be many men bringing date rape cases against many women.

Why do jurors find against most women in date-rape cases???

BECAUSE THEY FALL UNDER ONE OF THE ABOVE CATEGORIES, AND THOSE WOMEN UNDERSTAND, unlike certain close-minded members of hypocritical regimes *heil Jessica!*, THAT THESE GIRLS JUST FEEL GUILTY AND TOOK THEIR GUILT INTO A COURT OF LAW.

When I was raped, both the men and women that I told were sympathetic, and at least gave me the impression that they believed me. My case didn't go to trial, though, so who knows how perfect strangers would've reacted.

But when I talk to men and women about rape *in general* the skeptical reactions seem to fall into one of two categories. Men who doubt a rape victim seem to base their reaction on a deep-seeded fear that women will accuse them out of revenge or regret. I've heard women use the above referenced "She was asking for it, I'm not, ergo I won't be raped" line of thinking. Both reactions strike me as a very primitive defence mechanism, and both unfortunately imply some wrongdoing by the victim. Either way, I don't get where "sexual jealousy" comes in.

I've also heard women in particular openly question the victim's reactions. If a rape victim doesn't seem sufficiently shocked by their standards, or doesn't report the attack right away (which happens incredibly often), they assume she's lying. It's as if they say to themselves, "Well, this is how I would react, and she's doing something different, so she must not have really been raped."

I actually think that the MORE damaging part of Mirren's comment was that the defense tries to stack the jury with as many women as possible b/c they will be biased against the victim.

Solicitor General Vera Baird said that this is UNTRUE; juries are selected at random and neither the defense nor the prosecution has the ability to handpick the jury to suit their preferences (in the UK). Baird rightly pointed out that not only were Mirren's comments ridiculous, they are dangerous because they could easily deter women who want to report but are now even more afraid that the criminal justice system is against them. As if women needed more reason to be wary of reporting their rapes :(

So, I haven't been following this story at all but just by reading that quote, I am astounded. For a woman, or any supposedly intelligent human being, to make the claim that any woman would be "sexually jealous" of a rape victim is just ludicrous! I'm gonna need Helen to go sit down in a corner somewhere and not ever speak again...

So, I haven't been following this story at all but just by reading that quote, I am astounded. For a woman, or any supposedly intelligent human being, to make the claim that any woman would be "sexually jealous" of a rape victim is just ludicrous! I'm gonna need Helen to go sit down in a corner somewhere and not ever speak again...

This conversation is enlightening. There are many good viewpoints.

I don't like the argument that women never make false rape allegations. While it's not common, it's irresponsible to say it doesn't happen and the historical precedent pertaining to black men being falsely accused and convicted is apparent and well documented.

In general, I don't have a problem with Helen Mirren's comments. People are entitled to believe whatever they want and there are just as many sexist women out there as men. Free speech is a good thing and if anything it allows people to re-evaluate/justify/discuss their belief system.

@ nicolej117

"Free speech is a good thing and if anything it allows people to re-evaluate/justify/discuss their belief system."

True. But with free speech comes responsibility. Racial slurs are free speech, too, but if I yell them at people then I'm going to be judged a douchebag by everyone around me. And so I think it's perfectly fair to call Helen Mirren out for at, at best, having expressed a very one-dimensional opinion.

Saying, "but some women HAVE made up rape allegations!!!" reminds me of MRA groups whinging about how men are really abused, too. While it's true that there is the occasional false allegation of rape, just like maybe 5% of abuse victims are male, it's just a trope designed to shift the discussion away from the fact that women, not men, are systematically victimized by this culture. In other words, it's the exceptions that prove the rule.

It may be that Mirren was actually trying to expose an aspect of female misogyny, but she went about it in a pretty clumsy way.

Racial slurs are precisely the type of free speech that needs to be protected. Free speech isn't so I can say, "Hello Brigid, how are you? Good I hope!" Free speech is so I can say, "Hey Brigid, suck a dick!" (excuse my language) That's the type of speech that free speech is for (controversial speech), it's the difference between America and the rest of the world. Send the ACLU an email if you need better clarification.

I don't know anything about MRA groups, but I do know a thing or two about American social history.

Yes, women are generally victims of abuse at the hands of men and yes, most rape allegations in this day and age are valid.

I'm sorry...but isn't it deep seeded?

I'm sorry, but I still have a different take on Helen's 'sexually jealous' comment. I think sometimes we tend to want to believe that other women are as liberal minded and pro-woman as we would like them to be. However, many aren't. There are plenty of man-worshipping women in the world who think that men can do no wrong: women who favor their sons over daughters, women who always blame the other 'slut' when their man cheats on them, women who call Monica Lewinsky a whore but excuse clinton because he is just 'being a man'. So, her assertion that there are some women who can be very catty towards another woman who has been victimized is not patently false. It is possible that there are women who would look at an attractive rape victim and convince themselves that she must have done something to make the man lose control. It is false that a woman 'made a man lose control' by beiong so sexy that he couldn't help himself. However, it is not necessarily false that some women, especially depending on their age and own personal history, may indeed believe it is the case. Being untrue doesn't mean that some people still don't think that way and that their beliefs impact their decisions.

If these women, those mentioned by Crumpet, were only educated in the brilliance that is feminist philosophy, we would have less of a problem. So we the feminists just need to keep spreading the word. But I think the "sexually jealous" comment might have an unintended positive to it: if indeed these women are likely to vote in favor of the defendent, they may now be worried that they will appear "sexually jealous" (an out-and-out admittance of their inferiority [within a sexist framework]!) of the victim and vote to convict! (Hey, when you're dealing with ignorance, sometimes you need to use different tactics!)

I love Helen Mirren the actriz. She's a brilliant talent,maybe the best out there but this is the craziest sh*t I've ever heard.

I agree with Mirren's comments. Male jurors would tend to feel sorry for a female victim and want to protect her; female jurors are more competitive with other women. My female friends are always complaining about how women sabotage each other, engage in catty gossip, etc. Especially if the victim is conventionally pretty, I think female jurors would be more likely to act against her interests.

You might be thinking, "if I was on that jury, I would treat her fairly". But the commenters on this blog are all active in the feminist movement. A lot of men you argue against are active in the men's rights or anti-feminist movements. When you look at average men and women, who don't make a career or even a hobby out of gender politics, I think the female jurors would be less likely to give the female victim a fair shake.

Her first comments I didn't completely disagree with. I somewhat remember her saying that date rape was hard to prosecute and that's why she didn't report it. I think it was along those lines. But I was a little disappointed because women look up to her and maybe someone intrepretated that as it's impossible to prosecute date rapes, aquintance rapes, boyfriend/husband rapes. The prosecution rate of rapists in the UK is terrible (like 11%, I think).

These are comments are interesting too. Now when I watch SVU and women walk in back alleys by themselves or leave their drink to go to the bathroom and come back (and of course its been spiked) , I think to myself you have to know better than that but I wouldn't dare think they deserved it b/c they were wearing a certain type of clothing or b/c they left their drink unattended. It's just most woman have that "it won't happen to me because I won't do that" attitude and it's extremely disappointing. My mom says things like that and while she has a point it's definitely not the victim's fault.

/rant

I hope that makes sense sometimes I go on and on and don't really say anthing.