The Adipositivity Project: A new direction in fat acceptance
Fat acceptance is not about you telling me I don't look fat. Fat acceptance is not about telling me I am a good person, smart or worthwhile. Fat acceptance is you, seeing me, as sexy, bold and beautiful AS a fat person. And that is the purpose of the Adipositivity Project that photographs sexy fat women to challenge our perceptions of beauty.
Their mission statement:
The Adipositivity Project aims to promote size acceptance, not by listing the merits of big people, or detailing examples of excellence (these things are easily seen all around us), but rather, through a visual display of fat physicality. The sort that's normally unseen.The hope is to widen definitions of physical beauty. Literally.
And that they do. Check it out.
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That's ridiculous. To accept someone I have to find them subjectively attractive? Isn't this all somewhat besides the point? It doesn't challenge the underlying problem of non-attractiveness, in the eyes of whichever individual is making the aesthetic judgment, being regarded as a character fault in the first place. No matter how much they widen standards of beauty, there will always be people who will be near-universally regarded as unattractive, (for instance, people without relatively clear and healthy skin) and who are completely left behind by efforts such as this.
Promoting certain standards of attractiveness may arguably be desirable for it's own sake, but it shouldn't be promoted as some sort of social acceptance movement, because no matter what a person's subjective aesthetic preferences are, they should accept people regardless of how well they match up with those ideals, except for those few, narrow areas in which such preferences are materially relevant.
Hear, hear. Brilliantly stated.
I agree with you, saying that people have to be considered sexy, beautiful, etc in order to be accepted and respected is ridiculous. It buys into our culture's obsession with sexual attractiveness as a primary measure of human worth, and as you say Alice, someone will always be left out no matter how much we expand the definition of attractiveness.
However, I will give this project the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe its goal is not really to argue that sexiness is the reason we should respect fat people. Perhaps its value is just to show that fatness is not something that needs to be repulsive and hidden, but rather something that we can look at and appreciate aesthetically.
Is the Feministing position also that anorexia should be glorified as sexy, so that underweight people will feel validated? Sometimes this seems like a caricature of feminism dreamed up by Phyllis Schlafly.
You're assuming all really-skinny people are anorexic, and that's not true either... I've known a couple of very frustrated skinny people who were really sick of having people constantly badgering them about their eating habits without actually bothering to find out what those eating habits were.
You can't tell how someone eats just by looking at them. Some fat people are active bulimics. Some skinny people are born with tiny bones that make them look unnaturally small. Some fat people eat only healthy food in normal amounts. Some skinny people have super-fast metabolisms, eat and booze all the time, and never gain weight.
Nope, I'm not assuming that at all.
Being fat is not the same as having an eating disorder.
I've been anorexic and I've been fat. I developed a lifelong heart condition during my bout with anorexia, as well as other severe health-related issues. I never had a single weight-related health problem while fat. For some people, weight is related to health problems, but not all. There have been multiple studies that have come out over the past decade that has shown that its fitness not fatness that is key, and that one can be fat and healthy. In fact, one study last year found that it was actually healthier to be overweight than to be average-weight or underweight.
Assuming someone is unhealthy just because they are fat only exposes your own stereotypes and assumptions.
Rachel, that only relates to being overweight, not morbidly obese.
Those studies show that when you are overweight, what matters is your fitness level. An overweight but active individual will be much much healthier than a sedentary skinny person.
That's where it stops though. An obese, and then morbidly obese person does not have that luck. The women in these images are not overweight, they are morbidly obese.
Due to how fat and obesity is judged we don't have a realistic idea of what these categories actually look like.
This is a fantastic idea, although I have to be honest, it struck me as odd that none of the women have faces showing. I realize the goal is to make it easier to relate to the women photographed, though I would have liked to see at least one whole woman enjoying herself.
Yeah, that was my first problem too. Disembodiment isn't a positive thing to encourage.
The artist's (weak) explanation of not including the faces aside, I totally agree that it is bizarre to not include faces. Regardless of the size and shape of a woman, art and now advertising has a long tradition of decapitating women and focusing on them as aesthetic objects and not people, more commonly than they do with men. I'm tired of pretty forms, why not display the vivacity and personality attached to those forms?
As for the other comments about whether or not this project diminishes accepting all people regardless of body type by forcing the issue of sexiness, I don't really think of it that way. I see it more as one step to a more complete recognition of all people, not that fat always equals sexy or blonde always equals sexy or any version of that formula but that fat can equal sexy. Disabled can equal sexy and so on.
Does anyone think it is weird to call it Adipositivity project? Adipose, really? Not that I have a problem with adipose tissue but it is a little strange.
Did you read WHY the artist chooses not to include faces/heads? If you did you might understand her approach.
I think it's dehumanizing. And I read her reason. It's not working.
How about we do smoking acceptance next? Or how about alcoholic or abusive partner acceptance? Obesity is the number one killer of Americans and you want to accept something that is done voluntarily and murders over 400,000 Americans a year... Wow talk about misguided. Of course everyone will agree it's wrong to tease or harass people for being fat but being fat is no different then being a smoker.
Comparing people who abuse their partners to fat people? Just, wow.
I said what's next I never compared. Nice way to lie and change what a person said. You must be a Republican.
To me, stating that fat acceptance would likely lead to acceptance of abusers implies that they are on the same sort of trend or are close in nature, and I think it's horrifying that you'd even reference things like acceptance of smokers and fat people in the same thought as acceptance of people who actually abuse others.
And seriously, a Republican?
Fat acceptance always brings out the trolls.
Agreed, and I think this is telling.
The negative effects of obesity are vastly overstated, but rather than be bogged down with practical concerns I'll address the moral underpinnings of your argument. Yes, in fact, I am entirely in favor of smoking acceptance. People are entitled to harm themselves if they wish, if they are indeed being harmed, which is questionable since they obviously regards the high as better than long term respiratory health. I disagree, but who am I to contradict their decisions about their own body? One could of course argue that people who do not pay for their own health care are subject to constraints by those who are footing the bill, but that's just another reason why I oppose state funded health care.
So telling kids it's ok to smoke is fine with you then?
Insofar as you mean they should be told that smoking does not make someone a bad person, sure. I would encourage children to highly value physical fitness, as I do, from which the decision to not smoke trivially follows, but for someone who doesn't value their health, smoking can hardly be called a bad idea.
I can't believe you compared fat people to abusive partners. I'm fat and that truly offends me. I have half the mind to report you, but instead I'll just be snarky. For one thing, your statistic means nothing. More people die from cancer than obesity. Also, when put into perspective 400,000 as compared to the ,what, 300 million people that live in the United States alone. That's not a huge number if you look at it that way, hmm? Also, being fat is no different than being gay, black(), or a woman. Also, being fat does not mean unhealthy. Every time I go to the doctor's they tell me I have good vitals and am in good health. That's because I take the stairs and go for walks to the park or to downtown.
Can I lose weight? Yes. But that really wouldn't make a difference. I'm big-boned. At my smallest, I'd be a size 14. Still too fat for you? Will you shun me for my bigness? I don't get angry at comments real easily but your's made me sick.
I can't believe you compared fat people to abusive partners. I'm fat and that truly offends me. I have half the mind to report you, but instead I'll just be snarky. For one thing, your statistic means nothing. More people die from cancer than obesity. Also, when put into perspective 400,000 as compared to the ,what, 300 million people that live in the United States alone. That's not a huge number if you look at it that way, hmm? Also, being fat is no different than being gay, black(), or a woman. Also, being fat does not mean unhealthy. Every time I go to the doctor's they tell me I have good vitals and am in good health. That's because I take the stairs and go for walks to the park or to downtown.
Can I lose weight? Yes. But that really wouldn't make a difference. I'm big-boned. At my smallest, I'd be a size 14. Still too fat for you? Will you shun me for my bigness? I don't get angry at comments real easily but your's made me sick.
I'm sorry, being fat is the same as being black...how?
For many people, weight is not subject to change because of genetic predisposition or a body's natural setpoint range. Fat people have not experienced the same oppression as black people and this is not what I think the commenter is comparing. What I believe she is comparing is the fact that for some people weight is immutable and is the subject of their own form of size-related discrimination.
O.o? I've never seen "obesity" on someone's death certificate, have you?
No, but they don't put "smoking" or "alcoholism" on death certificates either. They put things that those conditions cause.
Yes, some fat people are healthy. But some are not. Just the same as thin people.
except that smokers are not discriminated against the way that fat people are discriminated against. When it comes to smoking, other than the odd comment, people just accept that others want to harm themselves. When it comes to obesity though, everyone feels they have a right to pass judgement.
Fat people are not always unhealthy. If you are overweight and exercise, you are probably more healthy than a thing person who never does.
Oops. Typo. I obviously meant "thin" person, not "thing". heh.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081112/ap_on_he_me/med_obese_kids_arteries
NEW ORLEANS – Obese children as young as 10 had the arteries of 45-year-olds and other heart abnormalities that greatly raise their risk of heart disease, say doctors who used ultrasound tests to take a peek inside.
Nice try, but no dice
I was wondering when someone was going to start clutching their pearls over the "CHILDREN!!!"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081112/ap_on_he_me/med_obese_kids_arteries
NEW ORLEANS – Obese children as young as 10 had the arteries of 45-year-olds and other heart abnormalities that greatly raise their risk of heart disease, say doctors who used ultrasound tests to take a peek inside.
Obesity is the number one killer of Americans and you want to accept something that is done voluntarily and murders over 400,000 Americans a year...
Can you back that up with a citation? I don't think you'll be able to. How many death certificates do you see with "obesity" listed as the cause of death? And in a time when even women who go to the doctor for the common cold or a sinus infection and walk out with nothing more than a Weight Watchers prescription, it's not fair or statistically accurate to blame all morbid health conditions as complications from obesity.
Oh, and to clarify. The number one killer of Americans? Remains heart disease, as it has been for several years now. Just saying...
Obesity is a key contributing risk factor for heart disease.
No it isn't actually.
Please back up your statements
Um, okay. It would appear that we both can find sources to back up what we're saying.
I get it that there is kind of a "correlation does not equal causation" mentality going on here in the articles that you posted. I'd agree with that. However, I work in an atherosclerosis research lab. Based on the research that I've been involved in, the correlation is strong enough to continue to hold up for further investigation. The hope is that we will be able to continue to identify absolute causative factors; in the meantime the strongest link among atherosclerotic subjects is the symptoms that result from/are linked with being overweight.
The point still remains that there is no known causal link. Using a strong correlation to look for a link does not equal being able to state that there is a causal link.
That and if one starts out with the assumption that correlation leads to causation, then what is to stop the researchers from excluding any data that doesn't fit that model and base set of assumptions?
This shit does not happen in a vacuum.
My original post was nearly a verbatim quotation from the American Heart Association link I posted, which that obesity is a risk factor for heart disease -- this is not a claim of a "casual link."
I don't really know what to tell you, Dori, other than that my lab conducts its research very responsibly, and we have absolutely no problem going back to square 1 if our results don't match our hypotheses. We are looking at the problem from a systems biology standpoint by surveying complex multi-gene interactions. If obesity is an observable phenotype from certain genetic mutations we are studying, so be it. We're not starting from the assumption that obesity is correlated with heart disease and therefore it's probably causative. We're looking at other biological changes, many of which happen to be associated with obesity. We know that obesity as an isolated symptom doesn't inherently lead directly to heart disease, but we do have a pretty basic understanding that certain health factors that increase heart disease risk are often present in obese people and in fact are often causative of that obesity. It is a simplification to say that obesity singularly causes heart disease, but that was never a contention of mine, and I backed up my original statement with credible sources like you asked. You're arguing a straw man with me at this point; I never asserted what you're currently discussing and in fact I don't disagree that there is no casual link. It seems that you're taking what I'm saying, which is that we have very basic information which we're trying to expand from to learn more, and accusing me and even the lab I work in of being scientifically irresponsible. I assure you, we are not.
And yet fat people have been shown to fare better following a heart attack or coronary angioplasty than their normal-weight counterparts.
Race is also a factor in heart disease, with African Americans more likely to develop it than other ethnic groups. We don't attribute the number one killer of black folks to their skin color though, do we?
I would not be at all surprised if there has been research done to try and understand what kinds of genetic markers in African Americans might earn them a higher proclivity for heart disease. I'm not familiar with such research, so I can't comment on it. The popular opinion which we're calling into question in this thread is that race is something that can't be helped, but weight is. I have not made that assertion. My point is more that being overweight, whether due to laziness as people like to believe OR to genetic factors that are out of the individual's control, can put a person in a higher risk category for suffering from heart disease due to symptoms that are associated with being overweight. As I said above, that's a strong enough correlation to investigate further, and such investigation might hopefully be able to reveal more specific genetic or environmental factors that predispose a person toward heart disease, rather than simply being overweight.
Plus one, to Alice and Lindsay's comments.
I worry when I hear unhealthily overweight women justifying their weight with "fat acceptance" rhetoric. It is no different than when unhealthily skinny women justify their weight by pointing at a fashion magazine.
It isn't about being "beautiful" to the world. I believe it's about being healthy -- inside and out -- and finding acceptance and self-confidence through that.
Definitely you're completely right. Telling people it's ok to be unhealthy is not progressive.
It is "ok" to be unhealthy, if by "ok" you mean morally defensible. It's not healthy to be unhealthy; that's about it.
But let's not pretend fat-shame is about health.
Annebella,
Thanks anyway, but us fat folks don't need you to lose any sleep at night over our relationships with our bodies. We can look after ourselves, I promise.
I think this really gets at the crux of the issue, actually -- whether it's about "beauty" or fashion or health or whatever else, the real issue, to my mind, is that fat women are treated as even more public somehow. I mean, what business of yours is it if so and so deprioritizes their health? Do they really even owe you any kind of justification? No, no they don't. I don't even want to talk about how this fat woman is actually healthier than that skinny woman -- the health of both women is no one's business but their own.
"It isn't about being "beautiful" to the world. I believe it's about being healthy -- inside and out -- and finding acceptance and self-confidence through that."
Ok... I assume you are an MD, and when you talk about those "unhealthily overweight women" who justify their weight, you actually have their medical charts spread out on your desk in front of you... Because if you don't, there's no way you can know whether they are healthy or not. Fat does not equal unhealthy in the same way that slim does not equal healthy: lots of fat people are extremely healthy "inside and out", and lots of slim people are extremely unhealthy. Lots of commenters in this thread are also adding a component of morality to the equation, as in fat=healthy=bad=morally unacceptable. This is a feminist blog and most of us consider ourselves feminists, so let me phrase it in a way that brings the issue closer to home: why should anybody decide about MY body, telling me how much I should weigh or what body type I should or should not celebrate?
*sorry about the typo, it was obviously fat=UNhealthy=bad=morally unacceptable*
But what's "unhealthily overweight"? A lot of people who are struggling to accept their bodies are not unhealthy. Many of them may not even be overweight by your standards (I can't possibly know, since I don't know what your standards are.)
'Overweight' is a tricky term, since it right there implies that there is a 'correct' weight, and you ain't it. Wouldn't it be weird to talk about people being 'overheight'? Some people are tall, and some people are fat. Some people are tall and unhealthy. Some people are fat and unhealthy. They're separate things.
I don't think anyone should be forced to find fat or skinny people sexy if they don't, any more than I think straight people should be forced to find members of their own gender sexy if they don't. But you can't just flatly say that all fat people are sick any more than you can say that all tall people are sick or all gay people are sick.
What is "healthy?" If someone is losing or gaining weight simply for the acceptance of judgmental people like you, that's not healthy, even if they do achieve a healthy weight in the end. That's a symptom of some sort of acceptance issue.
You and your buddy 23andpissed are making judgments about people based on their size. You have no idea if they're healthy or not. You have no idea if their weight is due to other health issues or medications. You have no idea of their family history. You have no idea if they're even obese. Do you carry a BMI calculator around with you and ask people you think are too fat their weight and height? I don't think so. So stop pretending that your prejudices are about health and not about deep-down hatred. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if both of you were once, or are, morbidly obese.
And this is coming from someone who is 5'2" and 100 pounds. That's actually underweight, but I would still consider myself healthy.
Plus one, to Alice and Lindsay's comments.
I also worry when I hear unhealthily overweight women justifying their weight with "fat acceptance" rhetoric. It is no different than when unhealthily skinny women justify their weight by pointing at a fashion magazine.
It isn't about being "beautiful" to the world. I believe it's about being healthy -- inside and out -- and finding acceptance and self-confidence through that.
It worries me too. It scares me that my heavier family members might find out about the fat acceptance movement and just say "Whatever, I'm fat, it's cool." I see their habits every single day, they guzzle Coke and chips and don't exercise and it makes me really worried for them.
would you care so much if they weren't larger?
I doubt it.
Jensy, be aware that there is more than one FA movement.
Not all FA is about responsibility shifting. Most FA, and the FA that I believe in is where:
-Overweight people accept themselves
-Society accepts overweight people as just a different form, and doesn't use it as a measure of character or personaltiy
There are some FA schools that have attached their own personal agendas onto FA... Such as trying to prove that people can't lose weight.
I don't believe you need to convince society that you can't lose weight.
You need to convince society that the outside appearance is not a measure of personality or character. And neither is weight.
In any case Jensy. Acceptance is something that benefits everyone and all of society. So it wouldn't actual hurt your "heavier family members", but can only be a step forward.
Well said. I don't know any overweight people who eat low-calorie diets.
It's the usual: chips, sodas, snacks, huge portions.
However, if you exercise daily - that's more important than what you eat or how much you weigh (to a certain extent... extremes are dangerous, both in weight and exercise)
It's just that the people I know who are overweight and eat poorly also don't exercise.
I'm 5ft4in, ride my bike to school every day.
I used to weigh 160 lbs - I ate extra portions and drank soda with every meal for a year. I cut out soda and lost 5 pounds. I cut the portion size and lost another 5. I started exercising daily, and now I eat just as much as I ever had - I weigh 117.
The most important thing imo is to get at least 20 minutes of exercise a day, stay hydrated and un-depressed. If that means being proud of your fat, then go ahead. But if you flat-out refuse to exercise, then I don't have any sympathy for you if you develop health problems.
Replying to Halo and Aleksa:
I've done community service in nursing homes. I've seen a few overweight elderly. I've never seen someone I would classify as obese past age 55. However, I see a TON of really obese looking 30, 40, 50 year olds. After that, it just seems to drop off. Maybe they're all at the gym...
As someone who is obese solely because of on-going medication, I don't want people to think I'm "sexy." I couldn't care less if they do. TBH, I get demeaning comments far less now that I'm not 120 pounds anymore. My problem is the doctor who said "I have fat, depressed patients who use birth control" despite that the meds for bipolar are causing the weight problem or the people who are *shocked* when I explain to them why they calculated something wrong who are the problem. It's treating me as if because I've gained weight, I'm stupid and/or lazy and/or lacking in self-control that are problematic for overweight people. The problem is especially bad in the medical community where obese people can be made to feel terrible for seeking out treatment for legitimate problems because "you're overweight" is always the first answer.
The looks of disgust from 100 pound people who are stuffing their carts with Oreos and Doritos while I'm getting carrots and lean cuts of fish or comments like 23's are annoying, yes, but they're not the source of major problems.
It's really not fair to bring up a medical condition in an discussion without mentioning what it is.
How can anyone possibly respond to that comment without knowing the details of what you say. I do have one question. Were you obese before this medical condition happened?
What does Brandi's past have to do with her comments? Put yourself in her shoes--do you really want to broadcast your medical history to strangers online? I wouldn't.
In my original comment, I said I weighed 120 pounds before the medication. It's for bipolar, which I also mentioned in my post if you'd read it more carefully.
Is her experience invalid is she hasn't been fat her whole life? Do you ask this of all overweight people before you judge them? I think her story makes a valid point that you don't know how or when or why someone became fat. So you're not really in a position to make claims that their unhealthy or willing killing themselves with food or anything else.
Brandi, can I say that I fucking love you?
I have never known someone so seemingly self-assured as you. You don't give a rat's ass what people think of you unless they genuinely appreciate you for who you are, and that is the most wonderful thing I think a person can have.
I'm giving you as many +s as the board will allow.
I should clarify that the "demeaning comments" I mentioned are sexual in nature. When I lived in cities, I couldn't walk from work to my car without being leered at and/or hit on daily. Now I don't have that problem. The only people who've hit on me lately are ones who've gotten to know me, and that's far better, imo. The average person on the street thinking "dude, she's smokin'" just isn't a concern for me.
That is an excellent point about being able to avoid being leered at after gaining weight. I am actually planning on doing a post on that topic sometime in the near future. Look out for it because I would love to get a big discussion going.
Here here to everyone discussing this openly. I am american so I know many many overweight people. I DETEST the inherent discrimination that many in our society feel is okay to throw the way of overweight people.
THAT SAID, I am very very opposed to "obesity acceptance." If you are overweight and it is unhealthy, then you shouldn't be celebrating it. You should be working towards a healthy weight and getting your vices under control. Just like alcoholism, smoking, gambling too much--it's a problem. My mother (who I love dearly), three of my dear friends and 1/2 of my co-workers have dangerous and unhealthy relationships with food and no relationship with an active lifestyle (complain that walking from our parking garage to the building is too far).
If you have a medical condition that balloons your weight then do the best you can to make healthy life choices. In the end, the vast majority of overweight people I know are not like Brandi. They are simply do not put any priority on their own health and weight problem.
And yes, so long as my group health insurance rates are drastically increased because 1/2 of the people at my workplace are on high cholesterol meds, high blood pressure meds, etc...I will complain. It's the american way!
There is a fine difference between fat and obesity. Also, obesity depends on the amount of visceral fat, which is unhealthy. Sumo wrestlers are obese and yet they are very healthy because they lack visceral fat. So make sure you do your research before you go off generalizing.
"So make sure you do your research before you go off generalizing."
You should do the same before posting.
(From wikipedia):
"Sumo wrestlers have a life expectancy of between 60 and 65, more than 10 years shorter than the average Japanese male. They often develop diabetes and high blood pressure, and are prone to heart attacks. The excessive intake of alcohol can lead to liver problems and the stress on their joints can cause arthritis. Recently, the standards of weight gain are becoming less strict, in an effort to improve the overall health of the wrestlers."
Since you must go on about researching claims, I can hopefully assume that you will do the same.
I specifically addressed Sumo wrestlers. If you want to provide research that Sumo wrestlers are actually as healthy as regular Japanese men. I would be willing to listen. I stated facts about life expectancy. You can dispute that saying those statistics about Sumo wrestlers are wrong. But I have no time to listen to an opposition to an argument that I never made about general populations. Now do you see the difference between my research and yours?
Also, that comment had everything to do with what I was talking about. Fat people can be healthy, just like thin people can be unhealthy. Get off your damned high horse.
You're right, thin people can be healthy or unhealthy. So can fat people. I have not (yet) disputed that part. But Sumo wrestlers are on average much unhealthier than the average Japanese man. In case you forgot what you said (just a few comments up): "Sumo wrestlers are obese and yet they are very healthy because they lack visceral fat."
http://www.stoneagedoc.com/Healthy_Sumo_Wrestler.htm
If you're willing to play fast and loose with facts about Sumo wrestlers that are verifiable from multiple sources, that doesn't really help your arguments about general populations being obese but healthy.
Yeah, she quoted a research article while you quoted wikipedia. Wikipedia, while a neat toy that has it's uses, but it's notoriously inaccurate and not remotely like quoting an actual study. Some chucklehead could have come by an hour later and changed it.
You're right Dori. The anti-Sumo wrestler conspiracy must have added that information to wikipedia just hours before I read it. They must've gotten into usatoday too!
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/spotlight/2001-08-08-sumo-retirees.htm
Even in your "research article" it doesn't even state who the researchers are!
"Sumo wrestlers are obese and yet they are very healthy because they lack visceral fat" Sorry but I don't see the quoting of a research article in Ariel's statement. Please point it out to me. Maybe I didn't see it because that statement is blatantly false!
My mistake, I misread Roni as Dori. I was referring to Dori's post, not yours Roni.
I don't think your source from wikipedia should be taken too seriously. Also, 60-65 isn't exactly young, considering most men in the U.S. only live to age 75 on average. It's only young to Japanese standards, which is way up there. And since when did obesity and alcohol have anything to do with each other? Censor much?
"Also, 60-65 isn't exactly young, considering most men in the U.S. only live to age 75 on average. It's only young to Japanese standards, which is way up there."
Oh my... I see where the misunderstanding is. I was comparing apples to apples here. Japenese men who are v.s. are not Sumo wrestlers. Is it clear now? Maybe I didn't make it clear that I wasn't comparing Sumo Wrestlers against average people in the US but even if I were... Japanese Sumo wrestlers are dying 10 years before average US men! That doesn't seem like they're such a paragon of health as you previously stated.
Well you missed the boat with my point in the first place. The point with Sumo wrestlers is that fat =/= unhealthy. And the comparison to average U.S. men is that 65 is not small feat. If you think about it, living as long as you have is pretty miraculous.
Living as long as I have? What is that supposed to mean? You have no idea who I am, how young or old I am or how healthy or not I may be.
You just have to say your example of sumo wrestlers was wrong and that Sumo wrestlers on average are not healthy. It's like pulling teeth here!
You're right. I don't know how old you are. That statement was generalized. Not personal. It's a miracle we're all the age we are. And no. I won't admit that fat=/= unhealthy is wrong. If you're just going to take everything at face value, then I'm done with you. You're not providing any sort of valuable conversation and I should have never entertained your statement in the first place. That I'll admit, was wrong.
Well, I think this isn't about celebrating "obesity." It is about treating people who are obese just like people who are NOT obese.
Furthermore, if you truly believe that everyone who is obese is because of a poor lifestyle choice, that still does not make them bad people just like smoking doesn't make smokers bad people. However, I think you need to read . Overweight and healthy are not mutually exclusive.
And you're not REALLY concerned about the health of your obese friends, are you?
I'm inclined to mostly agree with you.
But I have big a problem with this part: "If you are overweight and it is unhealthy... You should be working towards a healthy weight and getting your vices under control."
Even if we accept that being overweight is unhealthy (which we shouldn't blindly accept in the first place), there is a difference between unhealthy and morally bad. And whether to make health a priority is a personal choice. We can't tell people what they SHOULD do about their own health.
"If you are overweight and it is unhealthy, then you shouldn't be celebrating it." - Why not? I am an adult woman, I have the right to make my own decisions and the freedom of speech to discuss them openly. And what if I am overweight AND healthy? Can I celebrate my body then? Or should I worry about encouraging unhealthily overweight people to follow my lead?
"You should be working towards a healthy weight and getting your vices under control." - Again, why? What if I like to be an "unhealthy weight"? Or do not have the time or resources to plan a healthy diet and exercise? And what if the healthy diet and exercise do NOT make me lose weight, as is the case with many dieters? What is a "healthy weight", anyway? If I am 200lb and healthy, then it follows that 200lb IS a healthy weight, right? And how is eating "a vice"?
"Just like alcoholism, smoking, gambling too much--it's a problem." - Oh, I see. Let me mention here that being fat is not always the result of "overdoing it" or "being addicted". Some fat people overdo it, some fat people have compulsive eating disorder, and lots and lots of fat people eat three to five balanced meals a day, but are fat for a myriad other reasons. All of them deserve respect from others and healthy relationship with their bodies.
"In the end, the vast majority of overweight people I know . . . simply do not put any priority on their own health and weight problem". - Hey, you got it right here: THEIR OWN health and weight "problem", and nobody's business but their own.
The problem is...everyone's health matters to everyone else because everyone pays for it! The higher insurance premiums are caused by unhealthy living. If more people would take up a healthy lifestyle it would help out. I am not saying that you are to blame if you are overweight, you are just to blame if you don't take care of your body (exercise, healthy eating) And to who ever said it is too expensive to eat healthy and you don't have time to eat healthy, that is crap. You can always eat healthy. Try a Chik Fil A grilled chicken sandwich for under 300 calories! Pretty fast and pretty cheap. I am tired of hearing so many excuses.
It isn't anti-feminist as long as people are accepting of you as a person. Feminism is the belief in EQUALITY; feminism is not about thinking overweight people are beautiful! I think people tend to get away from this, just like you don't have to be liberal to believe in equal rights. Just remember the common thread is equal rights especially for women.
When I saw this post, I got all excited and clicked hoping to find pictures of women with bodies similar to Queen Latifah and America Ferrara's--women who are healthy and happy with their bodies and don't stress over how they look. I was disappointed with how many of those women look unhealthy. I agree with most of the other commenters here: body acceptance is great; acceptance of an unhealthiness is not.
I love my body. I'm 19 years old, 5'5", 180 lbs, and a size 14. I'm much happier with myself now that I was when I was 140 and a size 8. I think I'm fucking gorgeous right now! But I still try to stay healthy and not let my weight get out of control.
I'm sorry you were disappointed, but I think that the women in the Adipositivity Project are actually "healthy and happy with their bodies and don't stress over how they look" - otherwise they wouldn't be able to pose nude with such confidence. Queen Latifah is currently promoting Jenny Craig so I'm not so sure she's a good example of a person who is healthy and happy and not stressing about her body.
I feel like you have a very narrow, sort of distorted version of what "fat" is. America Ferrara is a curvy size 6-8 and has been a 10 at her largest -- she barely brushes plus size.
Fat Acceptance is NOT about 'you, seeing me, as sexy, bold and beautiful AS a fat person'. Not at all.
FA is about fat people being accepted for who they are and about combatting discrmination, prejudice and misperceptions about fat people.
Definitely Scarlettheartt...and it is different things for different people. I was saying what it is for me and to point it in the direction this project is going.
"Sexiness" is always really complicated, I think, because on the one hand, we don't want to encourage any kind of value being placed on someone's person relative to some other person's opinion of them (e.g. women being better or worse depending on how attractive they are to men). On the other hand, I think sex, sexiness, attractiveness, etc, are really integral issues to any full life, and from what I can tell, the project in the OP is trying to advance fat acceptance even as you define it by targeting one specific way in which fat people are not viewed as complete people -- that is, as sexless.
Re: fat people being viewed as sexless. This is a very important issue and a potentially harmful misconception: it is not just about "hey, your presupposing I don't have a sex life is hurting my feelings in an abstract way", but about "your presupposing I don't have a sex life is affecting the healthcare I receive and exposing me to potential health risks".
According to a study that was all over the Fatosphere a couple of weeks ago,
"Researchers suspect the stereotype [that fat women have less sex] could mean overweight women get different messages than thinner women from physicians regarding pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease prevention. . . . Some medical practitioners may not do appropriate follow-up with women who are overweight; they might assume they aren't having sex unless they are told otherwise".
After finding out that fat women have as much sex as skinny ones, if not more, the study concludes: "all women DESERVE diligence in counseling on unintended pregnancy and STD prevention, regardless of body mass index" (emphasis mine). Thank God for scientific research showing that fat women deserve to be treated as human beings!
Even the researcher admits his own initial bias: "These results [i.e., that fat women have as much sex as skinny ones, if not more] were unexpected and we don't really know why this is the case".
The original press release is at http://www.livescience.com/health/081030-overweight-sex.html
Wait, is the researcher in that quote saying that he doesn't know why it's the case that fat women have as much sex??? I hope not, haha...
Yes, these are the last three lines of the article:
Ninety-two percent of overweight women reported having a history of sexual intercourse with a man, as opposed to 87 percent of women with a normal body mass index. "These results were unexpected and we don't really know why this is the case," Kaneshiro said.
1. Note the use of the word "normal" in "normal body mass index".
2. You did a whole study on this and you still don't know why this is the case? Nice researching, buddy!
I just don't even understand the very existence of the comment? I mean, is he admitting that he had preconceived expectations about what kind of sex skinny vs. fat women have (what the hell business is it of is, anyway???) which the study contradicts? Is this actually in the text of the study? That seems terribly unprofessional or just weird to me...
Anon, I've read a number of articles in recent months suggesting that the problem with obese people being seen as stupid, lazy, etc. results in poor medical care. In the end, that means those co-workers of yours didn't get the medical care they needed until their health progressed to the point of needing all of the cholesterol & blood pressure meds, which just reinforces the idea that being fat is the initial problem. There's a huge cycle dealing with being overweight.
That said, I do agree with the basic premise if for different reasons. I don't like "fat acceptance" because I think it largely focuses on the issue of beauty, which is beside the point. It's akin to the interviews I saw with the woman from Ugly Betty (sorry, can't recall her name) when every interviewer had to say "this show challenges ideas of beauty, but by the way you *are* beautiful." They entirely missed the point, which is what I think "fat acceptance" does.
Fat acceptance is, pardon my pun, a much wider movement than that. I think it was Fillyjonk (but it could have been Sweet Machine, I do get them mixed up in my memory sometimes) at Shapely Prose who really opened my eyes with a post called "You Don't Have to Be Pretty." Essentially saying that we don't owe it to anyone to look any certain way, up to and including body size. It's not about being hot. It's about being treated like a person, not a disgusting thing, for being fat.
Emmy... Fillyjonk does not have a copyright nor (ultimate, universal undisputed) claim to being the authority on how to achieve "fat acceptance".
That would be "the fillyjonk movement", and not the FA movement.
I subscribed to Adipositivity a while back. It is helping me to break the automatic loop in my brain which says fat => ugly.
I subscribed to Feministing a while back. It is helping me to see that the concept of feminism isn't redundant, that gender equality wasn't all "sorted out" by the second wave.
I subscribed to Junkfood Science a while ago. It is teaching me that not just newspaper headlines, but also government guidelines, can be based on "facts" that are unsubstantiated by good quality scientific studies.
I love my rss feeder. I bend my mind with it every day.
I found a lot of the comments posted thus far on this thread incredibly offensive and close-minded. I'm usually an avid fan of the Feministing community, but like Ariel above me, I literally feel sick. To be a feminist, in my opinion, is to use some serious critical thinking when looking at the world around you- not just instinctively spitting out the same old tired rhetoric everyone else is saying.
That said, I don't feel the need to defend my fat ass to you- healthy or not- but if you feel like reading more about how fat acceptance works- go here.
http://kateharding.net/but-dont-you-realize-fat-is-unhealthy/
Maybe you'll think twice before leaving another patronizing comment.
THANK YOU..I was so excited when I saw this post, and then so sad when I saw all the comments just spewing the same old fat shaming rhetoric that we've all heard (and hopefully been able to tune out) a million times. Reading your comment made me smile.
I saw the post and cringed a little because this always happens when size is brought up in any way shape or form here. But hey, here's hoping for the future...
Word. I, too, am absolutely disgusted. Feminist? If to be a feminist necessitates critical thinking, I'd say there's not much feminism happening here.
I've been disappointed in the past with how shallow and uncritical and untheorized the comments about fat and weight tend to be, and I've had some hope that, if a few of us just keep at it, education might be possible.
But at this point, seeing these comments on a site that claims the mantle of feminist? I'm very close to giving up and shelving this blog.
Kate Harding's site's a good start for those who are new to FA. But I'd recommend Susan Bordo as well. Not that I think most of these commenters could handle stepping into the light if it meant seeing the ugliness of their own thinking.
I Word your Word. :)
I've been meaning to read Bordo; her name pops up occasionally in the fatosphere, but I'm a student and leisurely reading is not an option right now, alas. (Winter break, here I come!) Sigh.
Right, I wish Feministing would have more size acceptance discussion in main posts and size related comment moderation rather than occasionally throw a size positive link out there and watch every single one drown in concern-troll hell.
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Word. I, too, am absolutely disgusted. Feminist? If to be a feminist necessitates critical thinking, I'd say there's not much feminism happening here.
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Miriam, you win the "encourage dogma" prize of the year.
To you "critical thinking" means to not challenge anything?!! Wait a minute... I'm off to take a big huge pan and hit my head with it. I must be dreaming.
To you "being a feminist" means sticking to a theory, no matter what happens, and discouraging any discussion.
That's called nazism. How dare you compare feminism with nazism.
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Kate Harding site's a good start for those who are new to FA. But I'd recommend Susan Bordo as well. Not that I think most of these commenters could handle stepping into the light if it meant seeing the ugliness of their own thinking.
===============
Kate Harding site is a good start to Filly Jonk's theories. It's not a good start to FA.
Kate Harding (fillyjonk, sweet, etc) do not own FA, and are not the spokesperson of FA.
You do not own me. And you do not own my FA.
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It's like this:
1) We have a problem (fat non-acceptance in society)
2) We see that it needs to be solved
3) You offer one solution, I offer another
If my solution is different than yours, than I must be a complete nazi that has no critical thinking. Because if I had critical thinking, my solution and theories would match your completely, unquestioned.
This thread is a hot mess. many of my feminist sisters here seem to think that they have the right to decide who is healthy, which body is acceptable, who can be happy, who can be celebrated... have we all got our doctorates here or something?
Listen, as a fat woman, I understand the importance of the fat acceptance movement; however I am unsure that the answer is sexualizing or fetishizing fat, rather than normalizing it.. I am not trying to make everyone find me utterly sexual, that's not hte point- I am not a sex object...
I am fighting to be seen as I am, I am a PERSON. just like you, just like you might have been at a size 8, and just as you are today as a size 14, I AM A PERSON at size 20, and i will continue to be one even at size 32 and beyond.
i feel like we're all missing the point, and it's very frustrating. It's that whole Obama/ prop 8 idea.. how can we put our souls into searching equality in gender, and then use elitist discrimination when it comes to size?
I love you! I can't believe all the anti-fat acceptance people who came out of the woodwork. It really hit a nerve with me, which can be seen in my comments. This all because the organization mentioned being sexy and skewed the original point of fat acceptance. Ideas that fat=bad, fat=unhealthy, and fat=lazy is what I'm angry about. I have good morals. I have healthy vitals and eat right. I work hard. I don't lose weight because *gasp* I don't want to. I'm quite content with where I am.
Also, I strengthen my heart not because of my weight but because my mom has a heart condition and those tend to be genetic.
Why do we have to see the sexy, bold beauty of her breasts? Are women, even fat women, not sexy, bold, and beautiful in other places?
Oh Jesus Christ.
#1. NOT ALL FAT PEOPLE EAT LIKE PIGS. My mom has incredible issues with her weight. She barely eats because she's probably "obese" and feels horrible about her body and she STILL weighs the same. Do I know why she doesn't lose weight? NO. Does it matter? NO. Because she's my mother and I love her, no matter how much she weighs. PERIOD. Calling her lazy and stupid and a pig is absolutely ridiculous. You're all making assumptions about fat people based on your own preconceived notions of what fat people do and don't do. I thought most "feminists" were above that. It is not progressive in the least to pigeonhole an entire group of people.
#2. Fat and eating habits has a lot to do with class, if you look closely enough. Some people don't have the time and money to always eat 100% certified organic, or make their own healthy food. We've always been poor and overworked in my household because we're working class. My parents were never home to teach me to cook when I was little, so I know how to make boxed meals and eat instant ramen and that's about it. We don't have time to make meals and worry about portion control. We make food or grab something from whatever fast food joint sounds okay, we eat, we're good for another few hours. Notice that all the cheap, quick food isn't good for you and has the most potential to make you fat? Are we suddenly bad people because we aren't wealthy enough to buy all the leanest cuts of meat? Or because we work a job that leaves us dead tired and not in the mood to cook at the end of the day?
You people are ignoring a lot of VERY important progressive factors in your bashing of fat people. You assume all fat people are the same; they're all lazy and don't care about their health; they're all gross and don't deserve to feel good about themselves; etc. etc. But what you're overlooking is the idea that EVERYONE deserves to be happy, no matter what size they are, even if it IS (in your opinion) unhealthy. Keep your own ignorant opinions to yourselves and stop spouting the bullshit you always hear on the fear-mongering news. If you'd just leave these people alone and stop spouting hate about them, maybe they'd have their CHANCE to be happy. And then, to make you happy, maybe they'd stop being so stressed about their body and shed a few pounds. Because though it's not talked about 24/7 in the news, two of the leading causes of weight gain are--drum roll please!--stress and depression.
You know what you (you being the people mocking and ridiculing fat people) remind me of? The religious screaming in the faces of the gays about how they personally find them gross and offensive. That, I'm sure you'll all agree, is NOT okay. So why do you think THIS is okay--spouting your own judgment at fat people to make them feel horrible about themselves and force them into agreeing with you?
It's absolutely ridiculous.
can I just hug you right now? for realsies, thank you.
Word, Mocha. Your comparison to fundamentalist anti-gay hysteria is apt, especially since the fundies will sometimes say, "Don't you realize how you're hurting yourself?" or "If you want to go to hell, fine, but don't try to get your lifestyle accepted!"
I'm another example of how you can't tell someone's health from their looks. I'm skinny, so for years I thought it didn't matter what I ate. Wrong. Turns out that the bad cholesterol I eat goes into my bloodstream rather than attaching itself to my thighs. So I have to start being careful.
Thank you for brining up the issue of class. There is a very clear link between poverty and obesity.
I like what the website has to say about portraying fat physicality, which is something we are not often exposed to in the media.
But I am still troubled by the misguided efforts, on behalf of the FA community, to be viewed as "beautiful" by the wider culture. Fuck the culture. All of us are more than our bodies, whether we inhabit "beautiful" bodies or ugly ones. I understand the desire to be seen as beautiful (hell, I'd like to be!), but at what point does it become begging for scraps from patriarchy? Obviously many women think fat = ugly as well, but I'd rather not waste energy chasing the "beautiful" label, because it's ultimately meaningless, superficial, and confining. Also, there can't be "beauty" without "ugliness," so SOMEONE is always going to be left out.
THANK you, sarah. acceptance, to my mind, shouldn't be about "beauty" or "ugliness". acceptance means that shit don't matter. using the term "beauty" implies some relationship to sexual attraction, and i can be sexually attracted to whomever i damn well please, fat or not, without being a hater.
on a related note, there's a commercial in my area for "bridges weight management center" that has a series of overweight/obese people looking at the camera and saying things like, "i want to climb a mountain," or "i want to run after my kids," etc etc etc. (presumably this is why they call bridges for a gastric-bypass.) one of the people is a very conventionally pretty but fat woman looking at the camera and saying, "i want to have a boyfriend." this ALWAYS pisses me off. i can understand how excess weight can keep one from being able to perform tasks of physical endurance. but actually ADVERTISING that being overweight keeps you from being in a relationship? fuck that. oh, it makes me so mad.
I'm not sure who you're arguing is engaged in "misguided efforts, on behalf of the FA community, to be viewed as "beautiful" by the wider culture."
What Adipositivity is doing is presenting photographic evidence that fat can be erotic. The primary reason we all assume thin is erotic is because we are, on a daily basis, exposed to highly crafted (and often photoshopped) images of thin women who are carefully lit, carefully photographed, and then presented as aesthetic and erotic objects. After all, painters have, for hundreds of years, recognized that fat bodies could be presented as erotic, and that expanses of flesh could be quite beautiful.
Showing fat women today in the same light usually reserved for thin women isn't necessarily heterosexist or antifeminist, nor does it necessitate leaving *anyone* out as ugly.
Rather, expanding the category of those deemed worthy of the gaze helps us to see that erotic and beautiful aren't "natural" categories but learned ones, and we can and should consider unlearning the prejudice that leads us to presume that fat simply cannot be erotic, period.
That's the thing...
it's not great to be fat AND unhealthy. The two are NOT inherently linked. It's just as not great to be average sized AND unhealthy or skinny AND unhealthy. The keyword is unhealthy, not fat.
I am a fat woman, have been over 200 lbs for most of my adult life, but I get excellent marks on doctors visits and required fitness tests. (and to my friends that respond with, oh, you're not fat, shut up, i am. it's a descriptor, not a death sentence). I am stronger and have more endurance than most of my average sized friends. I even get excellent marks on my yearly diabetes test I insist on because of my Native background. I am in pretty damned good shape.
Also, before we compare ourselves to the past, keep in mind that definitions of obesity (AND even diabetes!) have changed dramatically in the last 20 years. I have BMI charts from the 80s where I would fall on the average/overweight line; now, I fall on the obese/morbidly obese line. Even the blood sugar levels for a diabetes diagnosis has been cut nearly in half. If you look at clothing patterns and existing clothing from the last century, sizes were not so different. The average woman in the US around 1900 was 5'2" and the equivalent of about a modern size 10/12... the average woman now is 5'4"-5'6" and a 14/16. this is a predictable change with better access to nutrition while growing. hell, children and pregnant women today in the US consume something along the lines of 370% more leafy green veggies than they did in the 1970s. In clothing patterns from the middle of the century I wear a 12, now I wear a 22 and have to take in the waist and let out the hips and waist. People of all shapes and sizes get heart disease, diabetes, and the such. I know very thin people with type II diabetes and people well beyond the morbidly obese range that do not and are healthy as a horse and can kick your ass.
Fat Acceptance isn't asking you to sit on the couch and eat twinkies, since that's the only way a lot of thin people think they could get fat and thus think that's how all fat people get fat. I am fat because my mother's family are short and petite and my dad's side is tall and built like linebackers. I look just like my dad's mom, who was over 300 pounds while working as an army nurse and a life guard at the YMCA (walking the whole way to work). Fat Acceptance asks that people realize that there are over 200 genetic factors that affect body size and height, that there is an "average" because there are equal numbers of people below AND above that line, and they ALL contribute to AVERAGE. It is up to the individual to decide if they are in a good enough shape to do what they want with their life-- you do not need to run a marathon every weekend if all you want from life is a corner office and a collection of fine art. Fat Acceptance asks that you realize that humans, both male and female, are a diverse lot and deserve the same rights and acceptance as any other human being. If you are going to bitch about what I am going to do about my weight, you might as well ask what I am going to do about my height.
I understand that your genes will dictate your size but I think that is only to some extent. I think many people use this as an excuse. I mean, I can't speak for you but there are many people that use that excuse and I know that they are not exercising every day or at least 3 times a week and many of them eat out frequently. I have genes from overweight people and that is why I rarely eat out and I exercise at least 3 times a week. So, it is hard for people to see that it is always your genes. I don't judge people or not accept people because of their weight but I can recognize that most of the time it is in the person's hands and not their genes. And that is the problem with many Americans, we never want to take responsibility for our actions. I am all for accepting people no matter what but I am not going to support a campaign based on making people think fat people are beautiful, but I will support a campaign that asks everyone to be treated equally including overweight people. And that keeps my feminist principles alive.
I don't need people to find me attractive. I don't find everyone attractive. I just need to be treated well regardless of whether people want to fuck me or not. It is a courtesy I am happy to extend to everyone else.
Sorry if I came off as sounding patronizing in my first comment. I didn't mean to offend anyone and would like a chance to clarify what I was trying to say.
Be whatever size you want; if you're happy I'm happy. I understand that there are a lot of factors that go into what is a healthy weight and what is not. I also understand how you eat doesn't always reflect your weight. I have a friend who eats whatever she wants whenever she wants and is one of the thinnest people I know simply due to her body-type; I also have friends who are pickier about what they eat and are fat and are some of my favorite people in the world.
But I also know people who do overeat and are lazy and are fat and are unhealthy because of it. And that's where it starts to bother me.
I'm all for loving your body and being happy with your size, but in promoting this, we don't need to lose site of the fact that it can be dangerous.
"But I also know people who do overeat and are lazy and are fat and are unhealthy because of it. And that's where it starts to bother me."
And this is the part that is none of your business. And this is the part that you should keep to yourself. People do things that you don't want them to do. You cannot control them. Your only responsibility is to treat everyone well and go about your business.
I do treat them well. Just as I treat my friends who chain-smoke well. It doesn't mean I'm any less concerned for them, though.
And this is the part that is none of your business.
And I suppose it was none of my business when I found out my younger sister was cutting herself.
Self-destructive habits are self-destructive habits and usually indicators of a deeper problem.
Becca B you need to check yourself or be content with fewer friends, because it is not your business to police the eating habits of adults with whom you socialize. How condescending. How dare you?
I never said anything about being policing their eating habits! I never bring it up, to them or in other company. How in the world is being concerned for someone condescending?
And if I did dare it wouldn't be because I care about how they look. I could care less about how anybody looks. I thought we'd gotten past that already. It would be because I was genuinely concerned with their health and can't imagine my life without them and don't want to lose them.
You need to read this:
http://kateharding.net/but-dont-you-realize-fat-is-unhealthy/
Also, it is generally a good idea, when dealing with a minority group of which you are not a member, to spend more time listening than you do talking. You have nothing of benefit to tell fat people that they have not already heard. Your participation in this conversation is solely negative. Believe me.
And you have ignored my main point and failed to answer any of my questions.
I've read that and said several times in this conversation that I know fat does not always mean unhealthy. But that doesn't mean that it never leads to health problems either.
I've made my case. Unless you're going to provide some sort of legitimate argument and stop insulting me, I'm done with this conversation.
If Fat Acceptance really is, "is not about telling [you] than [you are] a good person, smart or worthwhile. Fat acceptance is you, seeing me, as sexy, bold and beautiful AS a fat person," then I don't think it's something I can get behind.
I can buy that there's undue body pressure put on people. And people should be able to feel like they're good people, smart or worthwhile, even if their shape doesn't match some ideal. That's cool.
What's not cool is demanding that [i]I[/i] adjust my personal attraction and preferences based on what [i]you[/i] think I ought want.
Rick,
I think a lot of the people involved with FA would disagree with Samhita's personal take on the movement, or at least preface it by saying this is one person's narrow definition.
As said by a few before, it is more about being accepted as a whole person, as a human worthy of respect. No one is expected to change what or who turns them on.
nobody asks you to change your preferences. Just recognize that a-it's not anyone's job to try to conform to your preferences. you don't find fat people attractive? don't date one. They probably don't want to date you either. But NOBODY wants to change to meet your specific preferences. so keep it to yourself.
and b-your preferences are just that-yours. accept that while you might not be that attracted to fat people, other people are, and that's okay and a good that.
or a good thing, rather
"Also, being fat is no different than being gay, black, or a woman" SUUURE. Because you are BORN fat. Because you are such a helpless little worm that you have NO CHOICE about your weight.
People are not born weighing 300 lbs. By no natural acts can a person change their race, their genitals, or their sexual inclination, and many, many, many have tried.
I have seen no one who argued that running in marathons will turn me Asian. No evidence that eating leafy greens will grown me a penis. No evidence that cutting out saturated fats will guarantee an attraction to those of a different gender.
Do not link fat acceptance to causes where people have DIED, and continue TO DIE horrible, horrible deaths. You are considered ugly by mainstream society. You are UGLY. You are not going to be TIED TO A FENCE POST AND LEFT FOR DEAD.
Stop trying to participate in the Victim Olympics. You ain't even a contender.
Over the line, Ron. Do you think you're capable of simply treating everyone well, regardless of whether you find them attractive or (ahem) healthy? Because you've just demonstrated the opposite.
Pardon me mister dissenter-troll...but I was born larger than the normal EuroAmerican. Because
I am of an ethnic minority.
My bone density is millimeters thicker than a standard Americans.
I am taller than most women, on average.
I have larger hip bones.
I have larger hands and feet.
I carry more adipose tissue, naturally, than White ethnicities.
I am held to the same standards as small, thin white women...who do not represent me.
I should never have to defend myself for being larger than the normal woman.
I should never have to stand to be called a man, or man hands, as if it is a slur.
I should never have to stand against people calling me a whale or a "Fat eskimo" (especially when I am not an Inuit, but Native American).
I have been put into dangerous situations by men because of my unwillingness to be ridiculed.
So try again.
Do you think you would have been in danger had you not been a nonwhite woman? If you had been a white fat man, do you think these people would have threatened you?
The fat made you a target for humiliation. Your vagina and your color made you a target for violence. There's a difference.
Way to miss the point.
Can you please be a target for something? Like a projectile of some kind...?
Clearly some people are born with genetic problems or are just being born bigger, though this is in the minority. Most are fat because of gluttony. That's their business of course- anyone who insults someone simply for the weight is a jerk.
...what? Could you, oh, I don't know, provide actual data instead of some smug comment from on high?
Actually, most scientific studies show that you ARE born fat. Or at least, born with a strong tendency towards a particular weight, with a certain amount of wiggle room based on lifestyle. Most people's bodies look a lot like their parents' bodies, height and weight both.
In recent years there have been big widescale studies showing that about 80% of weight is genetically determined. Another big study showed that people who did FOUR HOURS OF EXERCISE A DAY would weigh about twenty pounds less than people with the same genetic makeup not doing all that work. Not exactly a huge difference.
Obviously, you can make anyone skinny if you starve or poison them. You can also stunt anyone's growth or make their hair fall out if you starve and poison them. Doesn't make it healthy.
I suppose that explains way the obesity rates keep going up.
Except that they aren't. 20 years ago, they moved the bar. The government moved the classifications for overwieght and obese down by three BMI points. People literally went to bed "normal" and woke up "overweight," or from "overweight" to "obese."
The average ACTUAL weight gain for each American over the last 50 years or so has been about 12 pounds, with a corresponding 2 inch increase in height. The real growth has been among the "super-obese," you know, the ones they make shock-horror documentaries about? Yes, they are actually gettign bigger. The rest of us are basically staying the same. Look up some real numbers before you jump on the obesity epipanic bandwagon.
There's no doubt that America continues to get fatter including other leading countries.
Except that the CDC has admitted that there is no obesity epidemic so you can just shove that judgmental shit already.
Really? So if people have died as a result of fat hatred, then you'll admit that it's a problem?
Well, then. How about, for starters, my mom? http://kateharding.net/2007/07/12/fat-hatred-kills-part-one/
Make sure to read the comments there, because clearly my mom isn't the only one.
How about Sandra Teague? http://kateharding.net/2007/06/08/you-know-whats-hilarious/
I could go on, but frankly, either you get the point or you don't care to.
If you don't think people are dying because of this prejudice, think again.
Where is the "I dislike this comment" function? Because I dislike that comment!
Change is scary. The media constantly tells *you* what they want you to believe is good, wholesome, marriageable, sexy, erotic, cute, different, unique, etc.
Beauty is a cultural ideal based on things like geometry and symmetry and fetish. It is perfectly acceptable to want to try to change this to incorporate all of the aspects of humanity, not just the glaringly homoerotic-yet-heteronormative nature of today's beauty standards, dictated to you by imagery shown to you as soon as you are born.
By changing the images, the system is changed and the next generation learns differently. Culture is propaganda. Even as a free-thinker, I realize that I am greatly influenced every day by the images that permeated my mind as a child and young adult. By acknowledging that, I can change myself and direct my eye elsewhere. But the damage has been done and it is every day that I struggle. Being smart, likable, eccentric, nerdy, cute, all that crap does not save me from people who just don't like that I am muscular and overweight. They like what they like and that is all they will like, despite the fact that I have learned to accept men I have personally found unattractive because they were amazing human beings.
Go ahead and cry about people trying to change what you like. People already told you to like what you like years ago.
OMG, I love you.
You can accept someone without finding them sexy. Also, the negative effects of overeating are widely known. These people will criticize those who don't eat enough and are too thin, but not the opposite of it- eating too much.
Most people do criticise eating too much, even fat people (in fact, fat people are often far MORE critical of overeating, because they're paranoid about it... naturally thin people tend to assume that whatever they're eating must be the right amount, since they're still thin.) It's just that it is possible to be fat without overeating.
Some fat people overeat. Most eat just like normal people.
Some skinny people eat like crazy and never gain weight. (Seems to be more common in guys, for whatever reason... I've known a number of guys who were walking vaccuums. Ate everything, never exercised, still didn't get fat.) Most eat just like normal people.
0+|0-] kbhvac said:
Here is the question for the day:
When your mom was pregnant with you, what species of embryo/fetus was present in her uterus?
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November 11, 2008 8:54 PM[0+|0-] kbhvac said:
The twin mudflapesque silhouettes that are at the top of your home page appear to be giving the one finger salute, flipping the bird....
Is that what you intended or am I misinterpreting the icons.
Even if their not flipping the bird, the idealistic shape of their female forms is communicating a message that this is the thing to be attained.
It seems to 'objectify' the female form. Does it not?
yor bro ken
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November 11, 2008 9:16 PM[0+|0-] kbhvac said:
“Comments Policy
We view Feministing as a platform for not only discussion among feminists and allies, but for reaching (rational, not hateful) people who may not agree with every word we write. However, we require that discussion in comments should be respectful and be directed toward the ideas and argument, not the person. All comments with hate speech, personal attacks, or offensive language will be deleted.
I was just perusing your home page and listed under regular features is:
http://feministing.com/friday-feminist-fuck-you/”
I believe a Unites States Supreme Court Justice once said, “If free speech is anything it is the right to be offended.”
But this is your web site and I am an univited visitor, but I presume, welcome guest.
So could you define ‘offensive language’ for me please? I do not want to violate your
rules, and if possible, I do not want to offend anyone.
yor bro ken
Ur, yeah, I do have problems with some posters comparing being fat to being gay, a woman, an alcoholic or a smoker. Some people are predisposed to be bigger boned. Like ME! I've never ever been a size 0, and I'd probably die if I tried to be. But I'm also a woman and a lesbian and I don't relate either of those things with being fat. I do however think that fat women are treated differently from fat men, but I think that has more to do with societal definitions of beauty than with sexual orientation or alcoholism or smoking.
I will be honest that when I first looked at the Adipositivity website, I was alarmed for some of the models' health, but after reading these comments, I realize that I was making a judgment based on socially constructed ideas of what 'healthy' should look like. I know overweight people that are perfectly fit AND teeny-weeny people with high blood pressure and cholesterol. Gee wiz!
As for aesthetics, I say Adipositivity is a great thing for broadening the spectrum of what is considered beautiful. I would love to see a website with pictures of women with many different body types! (from Cameron Diaz to Kate Winslet to Queen Latifah to Kathy Bates to Beth Ditto to Dawn French!)
I have a problem with this project. Not regarding fat acceptance, regarding this particular manifestation of it.
Everyone on the site is female. They are either nude or in "sexy" costumes. The camera focuses on their breasts or buttocks. Their faces are not shown. How, except for weight, does this differ from all the other images society throws at us daily? The take-home message is still that in order to be valued, women have to be deemed attractive.
Yes. This.
I'm surprised that I've only seen two comments in this long thread about this aspect of the website, and I think it's one of the most salient features.
Why can we not have a site that contains glamorous, sexy pictures of big women WITH HEADS?! Really it comes down to a difference between looking at sexy, fat PEOPLE and looking at sexy, fat BODIES. The same way it comes down to this difference with any woman regardless of size when she's photographed like this. I'm not knocking the project, which I think had good intentions, but why can they not leave the disembodied woman trope behind? I know it's not cool to criticize something ground-breaking by saying it didn't go far enough, but I always hate seeing pictures of naked women with no faces, and when they appear on a feminist site and no one mentions it, I think it's a little odd.
I agree with this, even after reading the artist's reason for anonymizing the images -- I think it would be real cool if we could simply encourage people to be able to view real fat women as complete human beings, without having to resort to the sort of forced "empathy" of hoping that the viewer will envision themselves (or their own mothers, sisters, etc) as these figures.
Yes. The artist's justification makes sense, but it just didn't "work" for me, because my immediate association was not with myself or my loved ones but with all the other pictures of women in sexual poses with their faces cropped out that I've seen. I'm a bit troubled by the idea of taking women's bodies and just imagining any face you like. Do we ever use MEN as fill-in-the-blank bodies? Or are they not interchangeable the way women are?
Normally I don't post comments on any of the blogs I read, but I felt compelled to speak up on this particular issue as it is something that I have wrestled with over the past few years.
I have recently obtained my Kinesiology degree, which touched on the subjects of obesity and population medicine a great deal. While it was noted in my classes that a great number of factors contribute to obesity (genetics, medical conditions, class, culture, etc) the primary focus was always on the science. It took a sociologist and feminist friend to remind me that it isn't as simple as bodyfat percentage.
It is not a simple matter of equating bodyfat to unhealthy. The medical community is still determining the best ways to measure unhealthy fat levels. Currently abdominal circumference is the most favoured method, not BMI, due to the focus now on controlling abdominal visceral fat. The research, while not overly conflicting, has determined only a correlation between obesity and the associated health risks.
With this in mind, it isn't possible to simply say being fat is unhealthy. It isn't. Having high levels of abdominal visceral fat and a poor cholesterol profile is unhealthy. As many people here have already pointed out, being "fat" according to a BMI chart does not guarantee this.
What adipositivity is trying to do is break down the dominant beauty norm, which I am fully on board with, and I would like to think that these sorts of campaigns are beginning to pay off. In the highly unscientific sample of my male roommates and friends, the current media portrayal of women isn't all that attractive anymore. While that may be missing the point, at least the social pressure on women to conform to an unrealistic ideal may be lessening.
Looked at like this, maybe adipositivity does have some interest in promoting health. Other people's health is important to me (as it is central to my career). As I am living in Canada, I am footing the bill for the unhealthy choices of others. North America does have an issue in regards to nutrition and obesity. Obesity may not be on anyone's death certificate, but neither is smoking... that doesn't mean it doesn't carry health risks.
The key is not to oversimplify anyone's situation. Do the working class have a tougher time maintaining healthy eating habits and activity levels? Absolutely, and that is something that should change. Blaming the working class family is stupid when society hasn't given them any real alternatives. NO, we should never force or shame anyone into a lifestyle they may not want. What we should do is remove the distortion on what is healthy (or attractive), which is what adipositivity seems to be attempting, and provide a real chance for everyone to make healthy choices.
In the highly unscientific sample of my male roommates and friends, the current media portrayal of women isn't all that attractive anymore.
maybe we could consider that the Straight, Male Gaze is not the only judge of female attractiveness.
As a fat woman, I value things like the Adipositivity Project because, growing up a fat girl, I was constantly told that I wasn't pretty. I was ugly. No one would ever want to be with me. Because, in our patriarchal society, the value of a woman is based so much on her physical appearance, I grew up without confidence, hating myself, hating my body, believing that I was destined to be a crazy cat lady.
You can claim that you don't care if anyone finds you attractive, and that's fantastic. Good for you. But I like dating and sex. I like being in a relationship with someone who finds me attractive. And it wasn't until I knew it was POSSIBLE for SOMEONE to find me attractive that I was able to date and have a healthy relationship. That may have happened sooner if things like TAP were more common, if fat women weren't desexualized in pretty much all books, movies, and television shows.
If you don't think fat women are beautiful and even something like TAP won't change your mind, that's okay. You may not like redheads or brunettes or short girls or tall girls either. But it's the "ewww...gross" response that hurts us.
Don't believe fat is like race or gender, something genetically determined? I am the spitting image of my mother, who is the spitting image of her grandmother. We hail from Eastern Europe, where lots of body fat protected people from famine and extreme cold. I grew up with a healthy diet, only healthy snacks, getting exercise. I participated in gymnastics, got my black belt in tae kwon do, and played baseball and soccer with other kids on the block. I just now came back from running and lifting weights at the gym and I consume way less junk food than my skinny 105 lb roommate. I've always been fat. I will always be fat.
Furthermore, don't get me started on the health BS. Those of you saying that all or most fat people overeat? Screw you. You don't follow me around. Betcha haven't read the scientific studies that found the opposite. I have. Bet that you're thin too. But of course, you know all about those fat people. We just sit around all day eating twinkies and watching television. How do you know how fat people eat and move? Well, you just do. The same way men knew (know?) that women were bad at math and driving.
this was a great comment to read and it swayed me a bit from my initial appreciation for the goal of the site with reservations about how widening the scope of physical beauty to include a greater weight range really does anything to dismantle the underlying problem of the beauty myth in the first place.
your views here totally make sense.
Thank you for this, I completely agree. I have spent my entire life trying to convince myself that it is possible for anyone to even ever love me because of my weight. And you know what? I still haven't been able to, not in 26 years. So when people like this come along with their faux-concern for my health and their "ohhh, but don't you know you are disgusting?" I just get so horribly depressed. People and comments like this are the reason we need something like Adiopostivity to begin with.
So you know what, I don't give a crap what you think of us. No one here needs to ask for your permission or blessing to be or do whatever they want with their bodies. Perhaps you should take a closer look at your own attitudes instead of wasting your time judging others about something that has absolutely nothing to do with you.
I could go on and on, but the smart posters above me have already said many of the same things I would. Thanks everyone who stood up to the madness that broke loose here.
Love this.
I am so fucking sick of people using the health issue as an excuse for fat non-acceptance. I don't see anyone saying anything about skinny models who smoke. Plenty of skinny people do unhealthy shit but their still seen as beautiful. Even underweight women are still seen as attractive. There is no variation of being overweight that is seen as attractive in our media. So what if you think being fat is unhealthy. My mother always said, if you cant show her a skinny person without the same diseases that she has then keep your thoughts to yourself. I'm tired of this culture telling overweight people that they are unattractive and lazy and deserve to be seen this way. It's ridiculous.
I found that particularly eloquent. Thanks.
oh, that was meant for Synj
I'm always grossed out and a little embarrassed by the response to fat acceptance posts by some supposed feminists.
Everyone always assumes fat people are about to drop dead any minute. As if being thin means you're immune to things like heart failure and being fat automatically makes you unhealthy.
Everyone compares being fat to being a smoker- as if I really believe that you ridicule every smoker you meet the way you do fat people.
Everyone seems to think "fat acceptance" means "NOW YOU MUST LOVE ME". It's about tolerance. You don't have to like it, but deal with it. Be a fucking adult and suck up the fact that we're born with different bodies and minds. Some people can lose weight, others really can't. (And SOME people apply Euro-centric body standards to every other kind of person.)
A lot of people work their whole lives to be ok with you they are. Who are YOU to rob them of it, just because you don't appreciate the aesthetic?
I'm seriously made sick by such close-mindedness. I guess it's only ok to be prejudice towards thing we assume people can control? I really expected better from everyone here.
(P.S.- The charts created to determine a healthy body weight have never been updated, revised or reconsidered since their invention. But I guess we don't need to update silly things like modern medicine...eh?)
My biggest issue with this is that it does not put emphasis on women wanting to be healthy for the sake of themselves and living a better life. It's about wanting people to see them as sexy, even if they may be unhealthy. I'm not saying fat people are the only unhealthy people in this world, or that all of them are obese or are going to have a heart attack in 10 minutes. I am saying however, that unhealthy lifestyles, whether they result in women being fat or thin is not something that should be glorified in any way, not to mention on the basis that women are somehow sexy because of this lifestyle. I don't understand why the number one concern of women is still being seen as sexy by men. It just blows my mind. Why do we still need to be sex objects desired by men in order to feel good about ourselves? Why can't we just live for us and be healthy and enjoy our bodies however they turn out.
"I am saying however, that unhealthy lifestyles, whether they result in women being fat or thin is not something that should be glorified in any way, not to mention on the basis that women are somehow sexy because of this lifestyle."
Lots of things out there glorify unhealthy lifestyles that make women sexier. I'm not just talking about pro-ana or pro-mia websites: it is much more mainstream than that. A magazine article about Madonna's fit body, praising her discipline for enduring an 8-hours-a-day exercise regime, is glorifying an unhealthy lifestyle. Tabloid coverage of Paris Hilton's late night partying, with pics of drunk girls getting into limos with no panties on, is glorifying an unhealthy lifestyle. An episode of Desperate Housewives, with its cast of extremely thin ladies (some of whom have admitted to starve themselves for the show) in which a size 8 Eva Longoria Parker explains "I'm not pregnant, just FAT", is glorifying an unhealthy lifestyle. Yet none of these elicit as much concern as a couple hundred pictures of fat women enjoying themselves and their fat bodies - which by the way, as I have said like two hundred times in this thread, are no evidence of unhealthiness or unhealthy lifestyle.
I agree, that all representations of unhealthy lifestyles are damaging. Why can't everyone getting so angry over this just agree that what we want as women is for HEALTH not APPEARANCE to be the most important factor when we think about our bodies. And that's how we want the world to see beauty. Beauty that comes from loving life enough to be healthy, no matter what that means for each person.
*disclaimer*: I do not believe that size and health are directly related*
A friend on mine was at one point planning on becoming a doctor (she has recently decided that she belongs in the lab, behind the scenes- a switch that had nothing to do with her grade/academic ability/desire to be in school/etc), and during this time she made a comment to the effect of "when I am a doctor I am going to refuse to treat people who smoke, because it is now common knowledge that smoking is bad for you." This comment really hurt me personally, as my mother went through treatment for lung cancer, and was a smoker previous to her diagnoses. In the eyes of my friend, my mother ceased to be a person worthy of her effort, her expertise. She ceased to be a person at all, and became "a smoker". This attitude was entirely unconducive to helping my mother quit smoking, that took understanding, support, friendship, and time.
Whether we see size and health as related or not, we have to recognize that current attitudes towards body type are hurtful to many people in the same way that my friend's attitude was hurtful to my mother- they prevent any positive sense of self, and cause entire sectors of populations to cease to be people in the same sense that those of other body types are allowed to be. To say "I won't accept you because I see your size as being unhealthy" is the same as saying "if I were a doctor I would refuse to treat you" to my mother, a smoker who also happened to have lung cancer, and who was in need of medical attention more than most.
I am trying to find the compassion to understand that people are making assumptions based on misinformation on the topic of FA. I think my "narrow" definition should have been prefaced by saying that FA is not *just* "about telling me I am a good person, smart or worthwhile." Because obviously it is part of it and really just my take on it. But I am just me and I am just learning, so I will definitely look into someone having a guest post that can speak to this issue better.
I was trying to highlight a project that I think is really cool because it challenges the conditioned eye and that to me is powerful. Those that are comparing being skinny don't totally understand because in a culture that values thinness and HATES fat, well, you kind of have to have the lived experience to truly understand how ingrained it is in every way that we think and see.
For those that keep bringing up the health factor, as other commenters have debunked, this is a myth. Health is an issue in every sector, but the constant redundancy when talking about weight is specifically belittling as tho, people don't think about this, can't make the decisions for themselves and know their own bodies enough to know where they are at with regard to their own health. Please stop spreading the myth that fat automatically assumes unhealthy, it is one of the most frustrating myths colonizing fat folks.
I read "not about telling me I am a good person, smart or worthwhile" -- apparently differently than many here -- as pointing out how non-physical virtues are often used as sorts of consolation prizes to fat women, as if to say "You can't be sexy, but at least you can be smart!" Although I agree with others on this site regarding being uncomfortable with the anonymity of the women in the pictures (and possibly the appeal to mainstream standards of "sexiness," although that is way more complicated) I think the general idea was a good one -- one of the saddest things about prejudice against fat people, imho, is the notion that fat people are sexless, that a fat woman being unapologetically sensual is somehow obscene, etc. As far as I can tell, this project is trying to address that problem, which I think is great :)
Hey Samhita,
Sorry I called your view narrow- in hindsight that wasn't the right word, and it wasn't very polite. I guess I said that because this is such a volatile issue, and for newbies to FA, getting a well-rounded look at the movement is imperative to fostering compassion for fat people.
Also, I definitely support getting in a FA blogger to educate the Feministing community. Maybe next time around people won't say such hurtful things, intentional or not.
Hey Samhita,
Sorry I called your view narrow- in hindsight that wasn't the right word, and it wasn't very polite. I guess I said that because this is such a volatile issue, and for newbies to FA, getting a well-rounded look at the movement is imperative to fostering compassion for fat people.
Also, I definitely support getting in a FA blogger to educate the Feministing community. Maybe next time around people won't say such hurtful things, intentional or not.
For more info on FA and the myth of "unhealthy" check out Kate: http://kateharding.net/but-dont-you-realize-fat-is-unhealthy/
Thanks Samhita for posting the link to Kate Harding. Imnotemily and Eileen had already linked there in their comments, but I'm sure your endorsing the link will somehow validate it for readers who might have ignored it otherwise. I hope everyone who has a real interest in FA -- even, and especially, if it is just an interest in debunking FA -- will go over to Kate Harding's and read up.
I'm also wondering why you didn't put up this link earlier on, or even within the original post. I'm not trying to minimize the value of the Adipositivity Project, but I don't think it's the best way of introducing FA to those who know very little or nothing about the issue. Kate Harding's 10-point declaration of intentions, on the other hand, is a great resource for FA 101, and should be required reading for fat-bashing trolls everywhere. I cannot shake the feeling that you chose to go for visual impact instead of critical thought and compelling arguments.
We make a lot of choices here. I will do another post, but this link struck me and we are always posting links with pics and videos and just a line of analysis. No matter what I write, some will support, some will denounce and some will troll, whether it be a lot of analysis or just a little.
I was a bit frustrated with your choice because I think that a visual post with little or not commentary is like troll-bait, whereas an in-depth post with lots of ideas requires readers and commenters to engage in more productive ways. But I totally see your point and I understand that your intention was to highlight the Adipositivity Project and not to write the ultimate FA primer.