oh yes oh yes oh yes thank you! i hate it too! i am generally a very loud and vocal and honest person, but when dating i'm supposed to be "nice and sweet and kind" and sit around waiting for him to call? yeah, that's not going to happen.

thank you so much for posting this!

Samhita, this sounds like the perfect subject for a book! I would be happy to contribute my experiences to that effort! I am a spinster - let's start with re-claiming that word. It sounds like a fun word and I never understood why it had a negative connotation.

I have been with my feminist boyfriend for 3 years and we are trying to decide if we could live together. I think we will end up getting apartments in the same building...we both like having our place and are skeptical of marriage. I think we will end up a lifelong couple who maintain separate residences in the same city. We live in Northern Virginia. And drumrole, we had sex on our first date and have been together 3 years and still going strong!!!

Yes, this subject definitely warrants a book!

1 Thing I Hate About Dating:
1. People, web sites, books, etc., that tell me how to act on , or feel about, dating. What the hell do they know, bunch of divorcees clacking away at a keyboard instead of getting laid, which just happens to be the desired result of dating, to me at least.

I'd certainly like to run into a woman who doesn't subscribe to heteronormative dating practices. It's posts like these that remind me how many women my age say they support gender equality but still want to be the princess on a date.

Which isn't to say that men aren't even more blame-worthy in this dating debacle. Just that, maybe I want to be treated like the "princess" sometimes too? I'm sort of tired of being expected to be the silent, door-opening, mysterious, pastless man.

The expectations game - you're expected to meet your true love, have great sex, move in, have a big lavish wedding, have lots of kids, and live happily ever after. And if any one of these steps is off, the relationship is considered a failure even if both partners are happy.

Yeah, if people aren't happy in a relationship there should be some introspection and re-evaluation, but if the hetero couple is happy with an "unconventional" relationship, than shouldn't everyone be happy that they're happy?

But is this just a feminist thing? I think a lot of people with different ideologies could identify with your list.

1. being told my priorities are wrong regarding career, family, dating, childbearing (etc). Please don't tell me what you think my prioirites should be.
2. Boyfriends that give me flowers or other pointless gifts, knowing full well I don't need or want it, but choosing instead to believe Hallmark knows what women truly want.
3. Being asked after x weeks, months or years after steadily dating someone, why I'm not engaged yet.

Samhita, just ignore the rules! Quite a lot of guys hate all those silly unofficial "rules" too.

Some of them are quite persistent though. In response to your points:

1. Generally speaking I like to look hot, but let's be real - if I could look like Seth Rogen & get women as attractive as the ones he gets onscreen, that'd be fucking awesome. As for waiting to get asked out though, there's really no need. I've been the asker & the asked & it's no big deal either way.

2. Again, you don't HAVE to follow this. Norms of appearance, etc. hurt all women, but when it comes to dating behavior, the only person requiring you to act a certain way is the voice in your head. Most guys don't care if you show interest - and in my case, I like shy guys, so I pretty much always have to be the more forward one.

5. I have to disagree with this. In my opinion, the guy paying on the first couple of dates is only fair because we put SO much more fucking time into getting ready for them (see #1). I like when guys pay the first few times, but after that, I insist on being equal. This is generally around the same time I stop feeling the need to look "perfect" around my SO. My current one doesn't care if I shave, wear makeup, etc., and I wouldn't have it any other way.

10. Again, why? I mean sure, society in the form or your mother/family/friends might expect that, but if you don't want marriage, no one's actually forcing you to couple up. (I get that the pressure can be overwhelming at times, though.) And while I don't personally want to get married, I don't see what's wrong with having the goal of a long-term relationship in mind when you go out w/someone - serial dating just does not seem satisfying to me, though unlike SOME people I'm not threatened by those who choose to remain single.

I guess what I'm saying is there are unspoken rules, but unlike some places where women literally are forced to marry against their will, most of us have more freedom & options than ever before. Exercise those rights and have the inner strength to ignore what society thinks!

Oops. I meant get men as attractive as the women he gets onscreen. My point still stands though...

This is a tricky, tricky, tricky one!

My partner and I

(I am male physically, she is female physically, we have only ever be involved with people who self-define as the opposite gender but are unwilling to apply labels to ourselves)

have had this conversation on a few occasions. We didn't start things off heteronormatively, even before we were aware of each other's beliefs on these things. But I think it's very easy for two people who LOOK like they're in a heterosexual relationship to find solace in a society that accepts them in that rigid category. Thus the socialization continues and all theoretical talk about the patriarchy seems to fly out the window once pragmatism sets in.

That is...unless you're "careful". And being careful is sometimes synonymous with feeling miserable, in my experience. So I have another question to ask: how does one practice as heshe preaches and still lead a happy life?

My partner and I live together and are about to embark on a continent-wide trek of South America before coming back to the States for graduate school. We've been together 7 months and will continue to live together until we don't. period. marriage? pshaw. If we're still enjoying each other in 5 years (its going very well so far!) then maybe we'll get a civil union, but marriage implies heteronormativity, in my opinion, even as this country reluctantly accepts it may not be that simple.

So. Dating? I think it's overrated, heteronormative or not. Why structure your time with someone you enjoy in such an artificial way? I think that part of the issue here is not the patriarchy itself but the fact that the system is antiquated even if equality could be applied. Dating rises from courting which existed as a vetting process for patriarchal units to combine on terms they saw as favorable. It seems to me that in the world we have now there is a lot more emphasis on the individual's right to choose a mate (yes, it ain't even close to perfect, and some may argue on this point...that's fine, I accept the criticism) and thus absolutely no need to vet a potential candidate in the manner all those dead old white guys. I think the best way to avoid heteronormative dating is to avoid dating altogether! Why not just be with whoever it is? At the very least it's more sustainable financially...

Just my 2 cents.

word! number 2 is so true. i sometimes feel as if i have absolutely NO power. it drives me buggy to have to wait for a phonecall, but if i call, then i'm being "too aggressive". and then you are pressured for sex but if you have it "too soon", even people you thought were open minded imply that you are a slut and the dissolution of the relationship is somehow your fault. i used to feel so bad that things did not seem to work out for me, but now i feel like i am basically a good person and i am not going to internalize the pain of rejection for the copious breakups and dating disasters that have happened since i moved to NYC. I think a lot of men here are absolutely drunk with power when it comes to dating. It just seems that for such a liberal city, it is one of the most sexist places on earth if you are a single female on the dating scene. I'm exasperated! My advice to my peers is not to internalize the rejection, or even see it as rejection. So many times I have found out that the men i'm with are juggling a number of women, and if you are mysteriously dropped for no reason, often it is some warped sense of loyalty the fellow has to a woman he knew earlier that YOU didn't know about because he kept it a secret from you. too many of my friends feel bad about themselves, think it is their looks, etc, when really the person they are dating is being deceptive and does not tell them they are seeing other people. I'm sad it took me YEARS to not let this stuff effect my self esteem. My entire 20s could have been so different!

Here's my two cents. BE YOU!!! The real you will come out eventually and then it's not fair if you've been pretending you're something you're not :)

Which is why I was single all through high school, through most of college and was stuck in a rut with either (a) random hook up's or (b) a few relationships where in order to make the relationship work I had to let go of who I was. (The longest of those relationships lasted about 1 month).

In grad school, I met a guy and he and I slept together 1 week after we met, we became fabulous close friends, we continued hooking up and then 8 years later, we are 100% in a hetero but non-normative relationship that 100% works for us. Convention occasionally plays a part in our "roles" but has never defined us. So long as we maintain our healthy balance of complimenting each other and making each other laugh out loud on a daily basis, we'll keep on keepin on.

I truly believe that the right person is out there for everyone of us regardless of our sexual orientation, our looks and our opinions. Finding that person can be difficult, but never sell out and never settle. If you like dressing up and being girly, do it. If you don't, don't! If you like crazy hot sex early in a relationship, DO IT! If you don't feel ready and share your sex with only people you consider marriage material, stay true to yourself. I truly believe that the only way to happiness is to never compromise on who you are. looking back at my short time on earth, the only times I've ever been unhappy or unfulfilled is when I compromised my own values to make someone else happy.

In the meantime, rules about dating should simply be thrown out the window. Seriously...who wrote these rules?

Hm... as it stands now, I suppose you could say that my relationship fits into the heteronormative mould -- we live in his house, drive his car, he usually pays when we go out. But the reason is that he makes more money than I do because he's been working longer than I have. He did a year of community college then started working before I was even out of high school, so while on the surface it looks like we've got this traditional thing going, it's really like that out of convenience.

Before we got serious though, he paid for things. The first couple of dates we shared cost ("I'll pay for parking if you get my cover at the club" kinds of things). I also did the getting dressed up thing -- but that's because I like to play dress-up. In my adult dating life there's only been one guy that I went out with who didn't put any effort into his appearance (so many red flags with that guy... I should have blown him off a lot sooner).

I wouldn't say that our relationship demands unequal power though -- we share chores, we share grocery bills, we share the cost of birth control. But I think the power lies somewhere in the emotional connection -- he was raised by a strong, powerful woman and enjoys the company of other strong, powerful women.

I think we just need more powerful women, then there will be more powerful women who don't put up with the inequity between the sexes in heterosexual dating.

It's interesting... Some of the things on your list are things I've heard about happening and have expected to have happen to me during dating years, but haven't. I've seen my friends deal with them and been drowned in the advertisement and subscription to them in magazines, movies and culture... But I don't feel like my own experiences reflect it.

I don't think my relationship is redefining, exactly. I think we'll live together once we are both finished with grad school, for example. We may get married and this choice, because we're a heterosexual couple, will be "easy" for us (as in, all options are open), as it will be if we decide to have kids. We do normal date-like things and are conventionally monogamous. I think it's exactly our kind of relationship that you might be referring to as "feminism's dark corner." A lot of my relationship with my boyfriend reflects societal norms, making it appear like the relationships you describe in your list of 10. Except that it doesn't feel that way to me. I don't feel an uneven power, for example, and we're always careful about taking turns stepping up to pay for mutual costs (including bc, both when I was on the pill and for condoms). Marriage, if it happens, isn't a goal for the relationship. It would be another step, a process to make our lives fit together better.

After Miriam's post a few days ago about LDRs (which my relationship also is, for the moment) Feministing has certainly given me a lot to think about in regards to dating. I'm enjoying it, I think.

Ooh ooh gotta throw in my two cents:

1. I hate that I have so internalized this stupid dance of boy-girl society-approved behavior. I try to break it but...
a. I get nothing but rewarded for this ridiculousness, and punished if I push for another way.
b. When I don't do as society would direct, I have to over-think everything I do.
2. As much as I don't think anyone should be put up on that princess pedestal, some part of me always wonders, painfully, what the fuck I'm doing wrong when it doesn't happen -- even though I HATE the being put on a pedestal!
3. The men-pay-women-put-out thing is a world of mindfuckery for me, b/c I'm a starving grad student, my bf is a not-starving student, and I let him pay for a lot of things b/c I have no money. Though, truth be told, if the tables were turned, I'd buy him anything in this world within my reach. Am I being a princess? Or am I just starving? Or wtFUCK does one make of this?!?!
4. The fact that NO ONE, straight or gay, will believe me that I'm bi, because I'm femme and currently have a bf. Do I need to provide video evidence of my past or something? Jeebus, ppl!
5. Girlie fuck-me shoes, and the damage they do to my feet.
6. The pressure to get hitched and make babies, that fucks with my own heart and expectations (ie if he hasn't proposed yet, he's not gonna/if I were good enough, he'd propose already).

And I have to give a shout out for Liz M and her #5 -- AMEN, sister!!!

Okay. I feel so much better. Rant on heteronormative dating evils complete! Wow, I said fuck a lot didn't I...

"I do think this is feminism's dark corner. There is no guide to dating outside of patriarchy."

I totally agree. It's maddening. With few exceptions, you can't just not do it if you want to have relationships... there's no other widely-accepted social model to follow.

In my current relationship, I was an exception. My long-time partner (he's a keeper!) had known each other casually for a while and just kept hanging out because it was fun. We had conversations about what we were looking for in our relationship. We didn't try to look extra-special or act extra-special, pay the bills or play coy. It just... was.

It worked out without us selling out for three reasons, I think: 1) I met him (incidentally) after I had decided I was not going to date any more, and if that meant I was going to be single, then absolutely. So then when we started seeing each other, I felt free to do it on my own terms. 2) He is a feminist. Grew up in a feminist household, self-identifies as feminist, and is probably more determined than I am not to play into harmful gender stereotypes. Yay for feminist men! 3) providence. /sigh.

Yes, heteronorms = insidious ew. No matter how much one preaches about dismantling gender demarcations etc, when it comes to the soft glow of the candles between, which waft to the tune of the fluffy-caustic chit-chat, the dog-eared fetish behavior's back.

I also really loath the category of the 'couple'. And how it must be defined differently from, and elevated above,'friends' etc. Sometime I want to fuck my friends, and just have comic conversations with my lovers. Sometimes I want to connect with a stranger, but stay isolated from an intimate. I wonder sometimes, what 'love' would have felt like pre-mass culture. I know there is no outside to structured social constraints, but I do think there were/are out-skirts. Like a rural village in 1380 in England, watching the Peasant's Revolt roll by (which included much cross-dressing and female participation)...

Agreeing with Liz M.; there are plenty of men who are happy to discard mainstream dating "rules".

#1, 2, 5 are exactly what should be discarded. There's no reason to stick to them, and if you find you have to stick to them in order to be in a relationship, you're looking in the wrong places at the wrong people.

#3, 4, 8, 9 are maybe more relevant to dating/love being complicated and difficult to rationalize, though I'd agree that women get the short end of the stick here (as there are more paradoxes that punish a woman's behavior)

#6 doesn't seem any more valid to me than same-sex marriage invalidating hetero marriage

#10 this basically does seem like the point of dating, though. If you're dating someone while bucking heteronormative traditions, it's possible to have a marriage that does the same?

Reading my comment again I apologize for the Medieval utopianism. A more update example: James Baldwin's Another Country.

YAY Samhita. Would also be interesting to see how these traditions, rituals and roles play out in the queer community (am thinking of "femme"/"butch" dichotomy).

I hate that lately the concept of rejection seems to be a phenomenon that is perpetrated mostly be eager females toward unwitting males.

Yet from a female point of view:

Never being asked to a dance in high school = rejection. Asking guys out and they say, "no, thanks"= rejection. Guys asking for your phone number yet not calling =
rejection. Guys scrambling to talk to your "cute friend" = rejection. Being told you would be prettier if you "changed this or that" = rejection.

and my personal favorite:

Going through life getting a lot of catcalls and street harassment, yet barely the time of day from anyone remotely within your dating peer group = rejection.

(But I'm not bitter:) I'm in a sweet relationship, chillin' in the bel paese)

my boyfriend and i have been talking about taking our relationship to a higher level ("engagement" even though we've been living together for the past 2 1/2 years)

anyway...i don't want a ring. we're both going to get engagement bands. i hate that i'm going to have to explain this to everyone and pretend that i don't want to stab everyone who says "but WHERE is the ROCK?!?!"

in short... i hate the expectations of a "normal" hetero relationship/engagement.

I'm going to chime in from a male and now married perspective here.

My wife doesn't identify as a feminist, she feels very much that most of them (usually white women) miss a lot of things that are of concern to people like herself (she's from the Philippines). That said, she has told me that when we were starting off it was nice that I offered to pay for stuff even if a good chunk of the time we split things.

I'm not super thrilled with heteronormative dating practices either, but I have to say I like taking someone out someplace nice and having a good dinner with a good wine, because it's a way of saying you appreciate someone. My wife pays for me now because she's working and I'm freelancing, and she was often willing to take me places I hadn't been to before.

Frankly, a lot of the behavior Samhita describes just isn't stuff that is too big of a deal after you've been around the block a few times. (I'm almost 40, an old fart compared to a lot of you. You'd be amazed at the things that bug you at 20 that no longer matter 10 years later :0) )

Also, I'm going to offer up here something from the perspective of a guy who was raised by a feminist mother, and really does believe in and support a lot of feminists politically. When I was a teenager and even in college, anytime I suggested sort of non-traditional dating stuff to women who identified as feminists i got a stone cold rejection.

This is a phenomenon I never understood. In many ways, women who weren't thinking about this stuff seemed more receptive. Any thoughts on what the hell was going on? I could almost draw a pretty straight correlation -- if a woman said really loudly she was a feminist, she'd be dating the captain of the football team or some similarly stereotypical "guy."

You can guess how screwed up I ended up being for a long time -- I got a lot of "friends" but no further. And for many men, understand that it isn't the sex per se. Yeah, a lot of us say it is, but deep down the real issue is connection.

Getting sex/date = someone can love me = I am a normal person and not worthless

Rejection = i am worthless b/c nobody will love me

I'm not saying any of this is healthy. It really, really isn't. And to find out I sent several therapists' kids to college. And it is certainly an example of how heteronormative dating behavior can mess up men too, especially if you haven't any idea how to go about it.

This went on until I got into my 30s. Then I met women who just quit thinking about "rules" and we just did what seemed like a good idea -- like what makes you feel good. And by that time I met the woman I would later marry. And y'know what? I don't care if it isn't politically what my socialist family thinks we should do (my great-grandparents never married at all -- that's how radical these folks were). That isn't the point.

I give my wife flowers and stuff because it's a way to say "I love you" by doing something. It means I took an extra 10 minutes to stop at the bodega and spend $5 on a boquet. That is no bad thing.

Samhita, I sympathize with you, but I also want to say that "dating" is just a small piece of meeting someone you like and might marry, or just spend time with or whatever.

I mean, there are plenty of men out there who don't insist on traditional modes. I was one. I can't be the only one. And if you try to overlay your politics on everything you can't get out of bed in the morning. I know, because I used to do it too. it made me unable to sit back and look at the big picture, as it were.

And no, I never thought I would get married either. I never thought I could stomach "traditional" stuff at all. But my wife taught me to approach stuff in a very different way.

Do what makes you happy. And if someone asks you out, so what? He likes you, and that's better than not, right? And what's stopping you from asking out anyone else? If a guy can't handle that you want to take him out to dinner or pay for it you know not to call him again, end of story, right?

Or am I missing something important here?

WORD word word. I am especially sensitive about #2 myself -- that shit drives me *insane.* I seriously just can't see the rationality behind just sitting on my hands and waiting for him to call if I am really into him, except that because of these social constructs he might interpret it as "too aggressive" or something for me to be too open and enthusiastic about it. It drives me crazy. I just want to tell it like it is and let the chips fall.

#7 is really interesting to me too -- the fact that there is no 3rd option has been the source of a lot of problems in my life, I think, insofar as it's hard to know how to act in social situations and really how to treat someone who isn't Just A Friend but who also isn't The Official Significant Other(tm) either, and that creates all sorts of opportunities for weird misunderstandings...

As a feminist male, most of these things bother me too, sometimes "in reverse".

While I understand that it may be frustrating to act in a specific way and "wait" to be asked out, honestly I would prefer that to being expected to always be the one to do the asking. For every date you get, you have to put yourself out there like five times and be humiliated (my point isn't that it's a contest between who's in the toughest position, my point is that it's a lousy system, for many reasons).

Many of your points about the dance you have to do (how many days to wait before you call, how much emotion to show, what you should do on what date, etc.) apply the same to men. We hate that too. If we really like someone and call the next day, we're "needy" or even "desperate" (the very subtle subtext being that we are "unmanly"). It's awful.

You mentioned the sort of code of chivalry that's expected of men. I don't really mind opening a door for a woman or pulling out her chair, but being a feminist, it bothers me for the same reason it bothers you (I swear, it's not because I'm lazy ;). But if you don't do it, you're an asshole, so what choice do you have?

I really hate all of this, I don't know anyone who enjoys the dating game. It's such an obvious relic from an earlier, much more sexist time, and it really shows how far we still have to go. But there's no way around it, if you don't follow the code, you're not going to be in a relationship. It's really awful.

Jess, I don't think I've ever met a feminist who would only date a captain of the football team. And you don't know how they behaved with men when they were with them - they might have not engaged in a lot of these principles that Samhita touched on. And I know a lot of very loud feminists who don't date men at all. I know it's from your dating pool, but it's not a very logical or even particularly respectful correlation to draw.

Otherwise, a lot of your ideas are interesting.

I really liked a lot of this list and it rung true, reminded me of high school, etc. But it's interesting that I'm dating a very masculine man - a "stereotypical 'guy'" - and I would probably describe our relationship as heteronormative in a lot of ways. But we don't follow any of these rules, and never have.

Or am I missing something important here?

I think the thing you're missing is that we live as ensconced in a certain society with certain norms for our dating behavior, and this affects not just us but all our prospective partners -- and so it's not quite as simple as just doing what we like, because if I do what I like, I spend a whole lot of time having it backfire on me (as I mentioned above, particularly because of Samhita's #2 and maybe #3). This is not to say that somehow the world owes me a good romantic experience at all; but if we recognize that there are certain social structures in place that are actually standing in the way of happiness, why not call them out on it?

You would not believe the lengths that I went through trying to avoid the pitfalls that befall anyone navigating heterosexual dating norms. I actaully got married after knowing someone for about 2 weeks JUST so that I could be on the market in a new way... all dating norms are suspended when other men find out youre a married woman and yet still on the market. Also, I masterminded a set of factors that made sex impossible for about the first month, making that topic null in void. Last, I put on my "I hate commitment face" and stage a weekend long freakout, thus (at least temporarily) preventing the other guy from feeling the same urge to run.

And the fucked up thing about it is that now, that i have found the perfect plan to suspend these awful dating norms, adultery doesn't even seem that appealing...

Agreed! I'm caught in a similar dilemma...companionship is nice, but marriage has a lot of other expectations, obligations, and 'baggage' along with it. I was recently at a wedding and the statement 'blessed with lots of children' was part of the ceremony. For a long time, I have had no desire to have children of my own. I appreciate their curious and fun personalities, but there is a lot of dirty work along with it that I'm not sure I want. If I got married, surely many would expect me to have/want children. I'd have to fight the "when are you going to give me a grandchild," question, etc.

In the area of emotion, humans are emotional beings! Some express it more than others, but it doesn't mean that emotional individuals like me should feel that it is problematic to express how we naturally feel.

Moreover, I also don't have the patience or anxiety level to 'always wait for the guy to call first.' If he really likes me, it shouldn't matter. I shouldn't have to play childish games like "hard to get" just to coerce him into 'liking' me. If we mesh, we mesh.

Thank you for the inspiration for me to tangibly express these thoughts!

In my SO's anthropology class, they learned that hetero mating strategies involved using and defining power, and homo mating strategies involved getting close through pleasure. My immediate response was "Uh-oh, we're gay!"

I've always been the type of person to question 'tradition.' The way people date now may be a fairly new tradition, but I still don't agree with it. I let my SO know right up front that I wasn't into traditional dating practices, and now both our eyes are opened on a much better world of hetero dating now that we have each other.

Also, whenever anybody brings this up, it makes me feel like I'm doing something anti-feminist by being in a heterosexual relationship. I felt that way when we covered it in my GWS class : (

Samhita, just ignore the rules! Quite a lot of guys hate all those silly unofficial "rules" too.

I completely agree. I don't understand why people are still giving any weight to these silly rules. I didn't sit around waiting and batting my eyelashes back when I was single. I was the one who asked my husband out in the early 1980s. I paid for the first dinner, he paid for the second one. I don't shave my legs, wear makeup, etc.

I'm not at all trying to lay claim to being a revolutionary. Far from it. We are a middle-aged, straight, married couple. We wanted to get married so we did. We didn't want children so we didn't have them. We've always tried to think about what we want, and then talk about it, rather than falling into stereotypical gender roles. There are too many examples to list here (and some details are rather personal) but suffice to say that neither of us mindlessly follows any rules.

In short, we simply ignored any rules that did not make sense to us. Isn't that what most people do? Maybe not - we often joke that we have less of a "herd instinct" than normal!

It's hard for me to believe that young people of today are still feeling bound by dating rules that are so outdated (pardon the pun). Is it a backlash? It is too much intimidation from the mass media? Is there really peer pressure from others to follow anachronistic standards? If so, where is this peer pressure coming from and why is it so hard for people to resist it? Aren't people being taught to think for themselves and decide what is best rather than going along with what is most popular?

I can't believe that young people of my generation (I'm 47) were any braver than young people of today. If you're brave enough to get a tattoo or your tongue pierced (I'm way too scared to do either!), or brave enough to post personal details of your life online, then surely you are brave enough to flout the rules of society! Especially when these rules are so STUPID!

I wish I could give you some actual suggestions or profound insight on this but I hope this is some moral support (and maybe another viewpoint for your book). I just keep falling back on that extract above from one of the previous comments.

Ignore all "dating rules." Do whatever makes sense and shows love and respect for others. Peace.

Huh. I don't think I follow most of these things.

I totally had a run in with the "if you sleep with him to early you're a slut, but he's a pimp" ridiculous social norm. I had to slap myself and do a double take wondering why I was thinking so poorly about myself. It was my choice to do what I did, and I really had no reason to regret it.

If the person I sleep with doesn't call me back, their loss. *shrug*

idiolect said
... because if I do what I like, I spend a whole lot of time having it backfire on me.

I don't understand this. How can "doing what you like" backfire?

Using rule #2 as an example, let's say you call the person, and that person feels that you calling him/her is too aggressive, then maybe that has helped you to rule out that person as a partner. That doesn't mean the process of "doing what you like" has backfired. It has worked. It has screened out a partner who is not suitable for you because they have a set of rules that don't apply to you.

Then you can go on to the next person until you find someone who will appreciate you for who you are, someone who will "tell it like it is and let the chips fall." It seems to me that being true to your principles is a better way to find happiness than conforming to rules that don't fit you.

@RMJ--

I guess what I was thinking is that if you try to layer on politics to everything you do, you remove your own ability to be happy with what makes you happy. Nobody should ever have to justify what makes them happy, as long as it isn't really egregious (like, if killing people makes you happy because you are psychotic that's another issue, y'know?)

But really, if more women were honest about what they wanted -- with themselves as well as with their partners -- then things would be a little easier for us men who have many talents, but mind-reader isn't one of them.

My mother always told me, all the time, THERE IS NO PRINCE CHARMING. THERE WILL BE NO WHITE HORSE. YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON WHO CAN MAKE YOUR LIFE HAPPY AND COMPLETE.

And then I told her I was dating a woman, and she started telling me about all the opportunities and experiences I'd miss if I don't follow the traditional heterosexual path to marriage.

Part of me blames my mother and her double standards for my general level of discomfort in dating and relationships. Part of me thinks it's just my personality. Most of me doesn't really care, but some small part of me still thinks my general health, happiness and wellbeing is somehow intrinsically linked to a storybook happily ever after.

"But really, if more women were honest about what they wanted -- with themselves as well as with their partners -- then things would be a little easier for us men who have many talents, but mind-reader isn't one of them."

Ahem, and vice versa.

I also think certain men who think they're mind-readers should learn the skill of asking questions, but that's a different story.

it's posts like these that remind me that, no matter how much i complain about how hard it is to find a girlfriend, i am SO GLAD that i'm queer. because in a lot of ways, it would be SO MUCH harder for me if i were a straight person trying to find a good partner.

I'm so glad you're writing a book Samhita! If you haven't heard of this websight, you should totally check it out and see about interviewing the woman who started it. She rocks.

http://quirkyalone.net/

Dating is a privilege. You should all be thankful that you're privileged enough to be able to date. Not everyone is.

Re katemoore:
That's not really a helpful comment. Leveling accusations of "you're so privileged, stop complaining" is usually designed to shut down conversation and shame the conversers.
I am thankful for the privilege to date, but I'm also sick of the accompanying headaches.
The end.

@ ahimsa - The wisdom in your two comments gives me warm fuzzies. I find solace in them, because the searching part feels so difficult sometimes (of course, on what "relationship" course are we and is it one expected of us or one we truly want?) that to be reminded it's okay to say to oneself, "no, this isn't working for me" and to feel okay taking necessary action/emotion is really grounding and comforting. (Pardon the unwieldy sentence.)

@ Samhita - I look forward to the book!

This reminds me of part of a Dr. Phil episode last week where a dating consultant gave a successful woman some advice to the effect of: Don't tell your date you own your own business, because you're putting your 'masculine' foot forward and you ought to come across as more feminine if you want to improve your odds of finding a partner.

Peh - I'd rather be celibate.

No, it's helpful, because every time relationships are discussed, not just on this blog but everywhere, they're discussed as if they're universal. Just the other day, Jessica posted the statistic that 95% of people have premarital sex in their lifetime. The subtext: "See? Everyone's doing it!" Except that everyone isn't.

It's privilege. It works the same way any other forms of privilege do. And so many of the comments are dripping with privilege.

I only did the dating thing once or twice, and they were never good situations. Mostly, I would find partners by just meeting people and hanging out with them. It wasn't necessarily the healthiest or best way (I got involved with some real losers!) but I always felt lucky to not feel constrained by these kinds of rules.

And I actually broke up with a guy because I started to feel the "the next step is marriage and there has to be a next step" thing. That was one of the best decisions I ever made.

And that is why, even at 13 i have chosen to be single...for as long as possible...its lucky I only know unattractive guys (with bad personalites)

No, katemoore has a point, and I don't think she's trying to shut anything down. These rules don't work to varying degrees for a lot of people, so why shouldn't she be able to say that the whole concept of dating hasn't worked for her?

And she never said "stop complaining" - she said we should be thankful, and we should all be thankful. It is a privilege to want to date and also be able to date; that combination of desire and actuality is not something that everyone has.

This is probably why I tend to skip to sex and just not worry about it. I don't have enough energy or the inclination to sort through all of the bullshit that so many people seem to expect to go down at the beginning stages of dating. I don't like the "game."

Ahimsa -- I see what you're getting at, and usually that's the attitude that I take for sort of immediate, practical purposes, but it doesn't really speak to what I was at least attempting (perhaps poorly?) to say. What I meant to say wasn't a sort of wishing that some guy who didn't accept me would, what I'm saying is that I think there are certain preconceived ideas about how to interpret certain social cues that everyone has to at least some degree because we've been raised in this context, in this society. I think the things listed in the OP are some examples of this. I don't think I should simply mindlessly reject any guy who falls into these traps as a jerk who doesn't accept me or something -- instead, I can think about what it is about society that sometimes causes these misunderstandings between people. I think there's a lot of wonderful practical value in abiding by the Just Be Yourself mantra in terms of your actual behavior, but I don't think all analysis should end there. Or, in other words, if Just Being Myself sometimes "backfires," obviously I should Just Be Myself elsewhere where it will be accepted, but that doesn't mean that the fact that it "backfired" isn't interesting something worth thinking about in a wider sense.

kg -- haha, that's generally my approach as well.

Haha, yeah -- this has kind of come up in the discussion above, but all of those notions of the game of dating have a lot to do with a guy trying to get a girl to sleep with him, rather than both people wanting to...which is dumb. I figure if I like hanging out with the guy, and I like having sex with him...that's as good a place as any to start, right? Less pressure, too. But to each her/his own.

Given that I'm not interested in having sex, but am quite romantic, the whole standard dating rules set brands me as either a 'tease' or 'useless'. Because the vast majority of people I have ever met have sex as the eventual goal. And while I can tolerate it, it's mostly just bad.

Here's a clue, you get to make your own rules and not date the ones who act like you've described above. Parents forcing you to get married? Move out. Friends pressuring you? Enlighten them.
I'm not the kind of guy who describe there and all you need to do is find the right person or not go after any person, whatever. It's your choice and there are easy ways to enforce whatever your choice is.
No need to go complaining about it. Or am I missing something?

yes, i absolutely hated the game of dating, and the subtle but persistent ways these "rules" played into my perceptions, even as i knew they were bullshit. being trained to think about everything, even social nuances, in a rational and academic way, i overanalyzed every little thing in sometimes really, really unhelpful ways, even as i attended a women's college and thought about gender norms and their social constructions on a regular basis. i would always, as a rule for myself, offer to pay my half on dates, but i definitely worried about looking nice (but also looking like i didn't put too much effort into it), and played into the waiting for him to call or calling first dilemma. and absolutely, not being asked out made me felt like rejection. i actually bought into a ridiculous, idealized, nonrealistic long, long, long distance "relationship" (it wasn't one) just so i could focus on school and tell myself i wasn't unwanted. another time, i made the move and went in for the first kiss with one guy, and then spent 2 months trying to convince the guy it was spontaneous and not a calculated manuever. ridiculous.

but i found that when i met my current boyfriend 2 1/2 years ago, all that inner, bullshit chatter just kind of stopped, or at least stopped seeming relative or somehow instructive. which was amazing for me, since i'm so overanalytical usually. all the "game" aspect of our first few months of dating seemed to melt away, because we just wanted to be with each other and get to know each other. sure it was rocky at first, and we almost broke up 3 weeks in (actually, he cried trying to break up with me because he was scared of moving so fast/committing to his first serious relationship--albeit that's seriously a normative "male" trait).

when my single, usually girl, friends ask for advice now, i tell them i think it's much, much, MUCH better to be single than be with someone it doesn't feel right to be with. there's no way to make it work if it isn't right, and none of the "game" will make it so. all those dating rules are just ways to filter out potential partners, but they don't at all reflect individuals' criterias or wishes. they're just tactics to get to know each other, but that doesn't mean they are functional for everyone, at all. hence they are outdated and heteronormative for most. but they're still salient and persistent in society, and harmful to self-esteem.

for example, when i told some of my best girl friends, who buy into heteronormative roles much more than i do, even being feminists, that my partner and i used the "l word" to each other for the first time, about 10 months into our relationship, their response wasn't "oh wow i'm so happy for you" like i expected and wanted, but "finally!" seriously. fucked up. never mind that we didn't say "love" before we were sure we meant it, meaning it was much more meaningful when we did say it. they/society thought that step should come earlier. it was cold. and mean. and still sometimes makes me feel like there was something wrong with our "schedule" so long afterwards.

and these same girls ask now when we're getting engaged....sigh....

Alan - I feel for you, I really do!! Most women I know act exactly as you have described on dates!

And yet - I don't and then men think I am a little odd and unfeminine! I recently got dumped by a guy because I expected to be equal (and that meant I was happy to take equal responsibility, too). He said that he was used to women he could "lead" and that "he liked to be in control"!! And you know the scary thing? He really didn't see anything wrong with this statement!!

Hence I am usually single! I am happy in or out of a relationship but it really grates that I lose out because I refuse to be treated in a sexist manner! I have my own money, don't expect the "princess" treatment, expect my partner to be open- not "strong and silent" and I can handle myself in any situation! And many of my dates are terrified of that! You would think they would enjoy the chance not to have to play the always- in-control patriarch - but no, it scares people.

I would love the chance also, to treat a guy a little how you put it..."a bit of the princess treatment" but alas it never happens! Where do you live??? Kiddin!

I honestly think that this "treating a woman like a princess" is a kind of almost "father", "daughter" set up where the woman always defers to the man's intelligence and control. And that's not love to me. Love is equal.

When I got divorced in my late 30s, I re-entered the dating scene. I discovered very quickly that dating was very different than when I was in my 20s. I also discovered that being a single mother with two sons was suddenly not the empowering experience I thought it was. So much rejection from so many men... wow... it was extremely disheartening. Of course, it was mostly passive rejection in the sense that I was putting out "signals" and the men I thought were attractive were simply ignoring me. I was using the old-school, heteronormative dating expectations. Those truly suck.

So, after about two years of the standard bullshit, I completely changed my approach. No more "signals" and "hints". I started being very direct. I approached, I gave out my phone number, and I invited guys out on dates. I paid for dates (hey, if the woman pays, she doesn't get burdened with expectations). If I desired a guy sexually, I went for it! Sure, I got rejection, but so what. Guys get rejected too, nothing wrong with some dating equality. I got what I wanted more often than not and usually the guys were completely relieved to be unburdened. I was being strong and independent and they loved it! My 40s have been wonderful, socially, economically, and sexually.

But there are a couple of things that still bother men. Men still expect me to look feminine. Yup, I gotta dress up and look my best if I'm on a date (I draw the line at pantyhose). 'Course, I don't mind doing the girly-girl routine, just not all the time. Also, the good, single guys (attractive, employed, intelligent, and fun) could date pretty much any single woman they wanted and I found that women are incredibly competative.

I look at it this way, if a woman doesn't like the usuall dating bullshit, there is nothing wrong with changing it! Don't like the rules? Don't follow them!

I'm so glad that I've been able to circumvent the majority of that. For one, I'm queer, and a lot of this is a moot point in same-sex relationships (for the people IN it, that is - I wish I had a penny for every time someone asked "So who's the guy in your relationship?"). For another, I went to an alternative, artsy high school, and everyone else was as dorky and out there as me, and though I had plenty of relationships, I never went on a single date. Those things happened organically - no waiting to be asked out, no dressing up, no grappling over the bill, etc.

The first time I felt really anxious about these things was when I started to develop feelings for my current partner. He hadn't been part of my high school crowd, so I felt that he must be more mainstream and buy into those 'rules', and I had never had to think about them. But I decided pretty early on to just screw it and do things my way. I actually remember a journal entry I wrote 5 years ago, when things started, about the silly 'rule' that a woman should play hard to get and be mysterious. I always spoke my mind, from the start, and my partner has always appreciated that. It probably helps, too, that he was raised by a bunch of feminists, and though this is his most unconventional relationship, he never exactly bought into the cliches before, either.

But, I definitely see my friends falling into these traps, and it's depressing. Way to go for writing about it Samhita! I'll definitely be buying that book for a few people. :)

The thing that most disturbs me is how much effort straight women are expected to put into "attracting a man". One of the girls at my job brings in her old magazines (Glamor, Cosmo, and the like) and every single one tells women how to look good, participate in small talk, etc., in order to make men interested in them! I'm sorry, but if I need a magazine article to tell me how to act interested in you, then you're not interesting and I don't want to date you!

Even the occasional article about how great it is to be single falls on the stereotypes: it's good to be single because you can eat dessert, not freak out about the pimple on your chin, and spend an evening watching horror movies and drinking cocktails. Again, if I can't eat dessert or spend my time the way I want to, why should I date you?

Relationships are portrayed as a major prize, the reason for existence. And you have to WORK to get one. But I think it should be a more organic process. If you're truly happy with yourself, then you don't mind being single because you don't derive self-esteem from being in a relationship. And if you don't mind being single, you'll do things you enjoy rather than things you think will lead you to a mate. And then you're more likely to meet someone who enjoys what you enjoy. And if you don't meet someone, you still get to spend your life the way you want instead of trying to hook a man.

But I'm a lesbian, what do I know?

I've never understood the "rules" of dating, and never really followed the whole "wilting flower" feminity either.

Although, I somehow found myself caught up in wedding plans about 6 years ago...my (now ex) husband planned everything. We got along great & it seeemed "cool". Yeah no. Before we were married, he touted how he LOVED me being so "free" with my expressions and ideas and calling him on his "BS". Afterwards - not so much. 1st fight - I wasn't planning on changing my name (even though we had already talked about it) - apparently I was supposed to have magically become brainwashed! Recurring fights - I wasn't "Feminine" enough - I don't wear skirts or makeup or high heels, it went on and on - he became more & more obsessed with sexual fantasies I wanted no part of, including choking, we got into a fight because I had my navel pierced & all he could imagine was it stretching into a HUGE hole "when I became pregnant" - I fell into a deep depression - living in the South, no one was supportive of me leaving - I wasn't being beaten, what was I complaining about?...So, I woke up one day, walked out on him & started the separation/divorce proceedings. Never felt "more alive" or looked back.

Now, I am in a healthy relationship with a guy that we started talking at work one day...went to dinner because we were both hungry...had sex...called or emailed whenever we felt like it...basically fell into living together 2 years later just because we like to spend time together...no one is trying to change anyone...it's just - nice...we dont' talk about the future - so there's no stress about it...

Although, I would say about 95% of people I deal with consider him my "boyfriend" or "fiance" - I refer to him as his first name - no "labels"...also, they are trying to convince me that I'm getting old & my eggs are shriveling (I'm 30 - *gasp*) and that I need to start planning my family NOW & decide if I want to spend this "precious time" I have "left" in my 30's with him, knowing we have "no real plans for the future" - like marriage or having "babies"...I just TRY to ignore all of it.

I don't know what this really has to do with anything, but reading this post brought all of it back like a bad acid trip!

Samhita, I'd have to disagree with everything you've said above when it pertains to the younger generations. I don't know of anyone who has any of these expectations except for my mother and grandmother. The only exception is the part about emotions. I find it's still the case that women are expected to carry the emotion burden of relationships.

Destra, I agree. Because ... I'm 27 years old and don't really find myself having any of these "problems", at least not often. And the few times things got ... too ... "courting"-like, I've basically just said buh-bye.

I am attractive but not beautiful (I get "cute" a lot) and I am a size 14/16, so I am certainly not stick thin. I rarely wear makeup, and when I do it's light. I usually wear glasses. I'm a total goofball and really independent and confident and I have a weird, dirty sense of humor, and a really loud laugh. I am not "butch" but I am far from "feminine" -- I am just me and I never hide that or pretend to be something I'm not.

But you know what? I've never had a problem finding dates (of either gender, really, though I find men to be a little easier in that regard, to be honest). I've had some HOT, HOT dates, too, men you would think might be out of my league since I'm not thin and blonde and perfect.

I think the younger generation is much different from the older generation. In fact, I was just talking about this to my single, late-40s boss -- she basically listed all those "rules" above and said she just can't do them anymore. I told her my generation is quite different, and she agreed (wistfully).

Perhaps it's because my group of friends is quite varied but all are progressive and don't really follow those outdated rules of "dating". Almost EVERYONE I know has gotten into relationships not in typical dates, but usually through friendship or one night stands.

I don't know. Maybe my experiences are different from everyone else's, but I really don't find I have to follow any "rules" of dating, and in fact I sometimes find I have to beat men off with a freakin' stick -- like right now. AND I AM NOT EVEN LOOKING FOR A RELATIONSHIP!

And maybe that's key ... I'm confident in who I am, I'm confident and content with being single, I am independent and honest and I speak my mind. Guys (and gals) dig that, I think.

And heck, I was dating an older man (and long time friend) a few years ago -- he is 16 years my senior. He appreciated the fact that I wasn't clingy or looking for marriage and I was my own woman. It was an LDR, kinda (back and forth from Vegas, I live in Phoenix while he traveled between the two often), and we decided to just remain friends, but that friendship is solid.

As someone above said: JUST BE YOU. Seriously. If somenoe doesn't like YOU being YOU, then FUCK THEM. They are not worth it. PERIOD.

Also, I wish more people were more content being single. I don't like this pressure of having to be in a relationship. I see it in this post -- being in a relationship is prefered, being single is lonely and boring.

I'm 27 years old, and you know what? I don't know if I want to be in a long-term relationship again. People will tell me "I'm afraid of commitment" and I find that so fucking offensive. What if I just like being with myself? Why do I NEED to be attached to someone else to life a happy, fulfilled life?

Sex for me is not related to love, at least not always. If I am randy, I can get some, and not from some stranger (my poly/open-marriage friends are amazing lol). I have a fun, safe sex life. I have amazing, supportive, generous friends.

I need my space, I like my space. I've been living on my own, in a cheap apartment, for the last 6 years and I LOVE IT.

I very nearly moved in with some random boyfriend last year ... and I realized it would have been the biggest mistake of my life.

I LIKE being single. Some people will tell me I'm just in denial, and you know what? I'm tired of people thinking I'm not as happy or as content as they are just because I'm not attached to someone.

And really, I very much identify with the poly lifestyle, except for the fact that I can't handle that many people in my space long-term, so I'm not sure if it is necessarily for me.

And still people don't get it.

"Just be you" works great - if you're reasonably attractive, free of disabilities, and have a social circle. If not, "just be you" gets you completely ostracized. It's PRIVILEGE. Why don't you people get it?

You know what I hate? The fact that my BF and i don't follow the set pattern of heteronormative behavior and we don't fondle eachother in public, and therefore we MUST be brother and sister. Yeah.

I've been very lucky to have never had to participate in this dating business. All of my former and current SO's started as friends and hanging out all the time turned into more. I think that many successful relationships happen this way. But for those out there who do not have this luxury, I feel for you.

I love all the guys commenting on this thread, telling the womenz how you behave on dates. "No you don't have to behave like that!!! You have to be like this!"

katemoore ... so instead you should be someone completely different? Really? Because that doesn't work either. You'll just find yourself disapointed because ... how long can you pretend to not be you?

No, that isn't my point. My point is that your advice comes from a place of privilege and is only useful (if at all) to those with the same privilege. It's like telling someone with clinical depression that they should just learn to love themselves and things would be fine.

I just said to be themselves. Pretending to be someone you're not -- depression and all -- won't get you anywhere at ALL.

Well, geez, isn't dating emphatically *not* about coercion? If you don't like following the rules, don't date guys who want you to follow the rules. Some people like'em, some people don't, you can operate in a parallel track to the patriarchy. I mean... aside from bristling at the comments from your parents-- which even perfect patriarchists have to deal with (it's more about parent-child relationships than about the patriarchy. they'd find something else to pick about if the rules were different)-- only you can compel yourself to these things.

And by the way, men certainly don't feel that the rules give them most of the power. Dating is expensive for men, only the woman knows whether or not we're going to get to have sex (guys will pretty much always say yes, so this is a low-risk venture for the woman), and we're the ones who have to put our egos on the line by initiating. I know it isn't part of the feministing ethos to sympathize with male ego, but... hey, if you're worried about the egos of gay couples (#6) and women (#s 3, 4, 5, 7 and 9) then it seems, like, bigoted to not provide some reflection on the other half of the equation.

But then again, sometimes these rules have their uses, which is why, in an age where, at least in big cities like new york, following the rules is a choice, given the options that are available here for non-traditional couples, some people choose to follow the rules. Because finding someone is hard enough, and it help to have a roughly explicit system of face-saving signaling to hide behind while you're figuring out how you feel. It all breaks down once the relationship gets real, anyway. Either you start to get past it on the fourth or fifth date, or you don't, and you know it isn't going anywhere. That's why some people find it useful. If you don't, then opt out.

I have definitely had issues with these rules throughout my dating life, and so I totally understand why someone, even someone younger (I don't think I'm too old at 26...), can feel anxious over these expectations. HOWEVER, as much as I felt pressured to "follow the rules," I always went with my own gut, and broke them, even when my friends advised me against it.

When I like a guy, I tell him. I've asked out many guys, some have said yes, and some have said no, but a surprising number of guys actually appreciated my aggression, and were complimented that I had the nerve to ask them out. On the downside, most of my "relationships" were usually a month long since the appeal of an agressive woman wore off after that time, and I was often told that I was "too much."

But, I now live with my fiance, who loves me and my feminist self for me. We started our relationship after being close friends for over a year, and I told him I liked him, and after some reflection he decided he was interested as well, even though I did not dress nicely and usually wore sweatpants. Sometimes I pay for dinner and groceries, sometimes he does. Sometimes he cooks, other times I cook. We do not have any set rules for how we live and who pays for what. When we got engaged, he didn't propose to me, we talked it over and decided it was the best thing for us, and then we both picked out a sapphire ring for me (it has symbolic meaning to us), and I attempted to buy him a nintendo wii (the only thing he actually wanted), but he decided he would never leave the house if he had one. I do wish I got him an engagement gift, but as of yet, I have not thought of something he actually wants.

Anyway, I do understand that it can be difficult to fight these heteronormative dating ways, but would you really want to be with someone who only likes you when you play hard to get, don't call him first, wear stilletos, or whatever else? Obviously not. So keep being who you are, and fight the good fight!

@katemoore: I'm sorry, but I really don't follow your argument in terms of privilege. I'm racking my brain trying to think of a group that CAN'T date, outside of cultures with religious or other restrictions (such as certain Christian denominations which forbid dating, like Apostolic churches). I'm not trying to be snarky, I just really don't understand.

As to the comments about queer folk being exempt, I think there ARE other norms that play out in queer dating. The most formalized dating process I've ever been through was with my now girlfriend.

Now that I've rethought and read Samhita's comment, I think maybe my definition of dating is different?

marilove, I don't think it's the "be yourself" advice that's the problem, I think it's the ignoring of the fact that being yourself, while it may be your best option from among the options available to you, won't get you a date if you don't have the privilege katemoore is talking about. So that this whole dating advice conversation is making those unprivileged people invisible. Unless you argue that there actually are people who want to date those unprivileged people or something.

Personally I find dating advice obnoxious for a different reason, which is that it's usually based on the assumption that all men or all women want the same thing, and therefore some dude has the authority to tell me what I need to do and what I don't need to do ('you don't have to follow those rules, we like being asked out' counts too) to get a date with someone totally different from him (and women tell men the same thing, and the same thing probably happens to some extent in queer circles). Although I recognize that there are sort of "social codes" that people are aware of and think everyone expects them to follow, even if most of us would rather not follow them, so that kind of discussion isn't totally useless, but it reminds me of the general way some men feel entitled to judge women as if they can speak for all men (and this is even worse when the woman isn't even looking for a man), which I hate.

Posted my response to this at Pushback: http://www.pushback.org/2008/10/29/2770/

I feel like Samhita is glossing over the fact that there are plenty of heterosexual couples flouting these stupid rules daily. We have a say in what "dating" entails; it doesn't make sense to act as though we are completely at the mercy of the institution itself.

I'm kind of unhappy that no one seemed to want to engage with my last comment... are all you guys seriously so focused just on what will or will not work that you can't think about underlying social structures and whether or not we're satisfied with them? Like I said above, the "JUST BE YOU" approach only really tells you what to do in this or that immediate personal situation, can help you "get over" some guy being a jerk, but really doesn't do a damn thing to start looking at some of the problems ingrained in wider society when it comes to things like this.

BTW, I am 25, and I feel like it's a little naive to go "Oh, it's not like this at all in our generation! WE are different! Yay!" -- we are certainly different, but I definitely don't think we've completely moved past the preconceived notions that lie at the heart of this stuff. Also BTW, I have had a number of great hetero relationships that start off in a way unhampered by these "rules" and so on, too. I kind of resent the suggestion that a few of you have been implicitly making that because I don't think "Just Be You" is enough to deal with the wider problem here, I've been sitting around wringing my hands over how to change myself in order to get some dude.

Oh, also, maybe you're a little bit pathologizing douchebags. I mean, some people are douchebags. There are douchebaggy women and there are douchebaggy men. Granted that once there are enough people who are douchebaggy in a certain way, it becomes "systematic", but maybe the problem is you're just looking at the forest of people and primarily noticing the douchebags who ride the 'system' as a moral imperative?

I've been out of a LTR for a year now and I like online dating. Mainly because I don't want kids and I like being upfront about that. I don't want to fall for somebody and then have the kid thing be a sticking point when I'm entangled. A lot of men in my age dating range are looking for a significant relationship where they can have their hipster kid and that's not my goal. There are a lot of hetero-normative dating rules of course online. The men who can't handle me contacting them or me paying are doing me a favor by filtering themselves out.

I like dating and I like my alone time, but honestly having a good partner is a goal of mine.
taxgirl1 is living my dream. Having a SO in the same building but not the same apartment.

judgesnineteen, maybe it's because I find "traditional dating" pretty ridiculous, but yeah, I do think that there are people who want to/can date those unprivileged people.

I'm not going to deny that I have some privilige, being a young, white, fairly attractive (but fat) female.

But I STILL think being yourself is key. If you pretend to be someone else, or go by some false rules that erases your true self, the relationship will not work out. Period. Because then you're just lying to yourself and whoever it is you're dating.

But, you know, I understand that my idea of dating and relationships are different from most people. Mainly, I don't see a huge poit in them, being that I don't want kids and don't have any desire to get married. But I do realize finding a long-term partner is important to a lot of people.

And I mentioned this above, but I DO think our society is VERY OBSESSED with EVERYONE paring up, and I think it puts a lot of pressure, a lot of un-needed pressure, on everyone. I wish this whole "YOU MUST FIND SOMEONE OR YOU WILL NOT BE WHOLE!!!!" crap would just stop.

I'm so glad I managed to avoid most of that junk. In my single days, most of my 'dating' started with a book recomendation and ended with make out sessions which avoids most of the typical dating expectations, haha.

When my husband first asked me for my phone number I asked him when he would call me. I just told him I hated waiting for someone to call, so tell me when you're going to call me. He said he'd call me the next day, and he did. We talked a few times and then I asked him out to lunch. He was reluctant and kind of like "well, I'm really busy right now...I've got school and my friends...." (he was finishing up a difficult degree). I don't remember my exact response, but we ended the phone call with a lunch date planned. I brought two of my favorite books to the lunch date and one thing led to another... so I say throw the 'rules' out the window.

I'm really lucky. I decided I wanted to interact honestly based on however I felt and he could take it or leave it - fortunately he loved it. For our first 'date-date' he took me to sushi and I matched him piece for piece (almost threw up, but that's a different story). Any guy that would have been turned off by that wouldn't have been for me. I'm not that demure polite quiet femme girl and it would have been unfair to him and me to present myself that way.

We also both started wearing our wedding bands as soon as we had them, even though we weren't married yet. It had always annoyed me that a girl is considered taken as soon as she pops on the engagement ring, but a guy is still single until he's actually married. I didn't have an engagement ring, but I wanted to wear my ring as soon as I got it and I was really pleased when he chose to do the same (without any coaching or discussion with me).

Fuck a bunch of rules, seriously.

Alan and others: We are out there. I've always done the asking. Me, sit around waiting for the phone to ring? Ha. I'd still be a virgin (and I'm 40 years old).

I buy my boyfriend roses on a regular basis. In the beginning, I phoned him just as much as he phoned me. Now, we live together (my idea), so there is not much phoning. lol. We alternate paying for restaurant meals and such. If I get to the door first, I open it for him and vice versa. I enjoy cooking, so I make delicious meals for him. In my mind at least, this is a romantic thing to do for one's partner.

Why is someone saying that people with disabilities/physical limitations/etc cannot date? They can and they do. I've seen wheelchairs on the dance floor at the club, too. I have some chronic conditions (not flat out disabilities though) that make life hard and complicated, but honestly, it hasn't been much of an obstacle in my love life. Any partner not willing to date me (or who rags on me) for that reason can just hit the bricks. Take me like I am or you don't get me at all!

This post really reminds me of a great essay I read from a collection called "Jane Sexes It Up: True Confessions of Feminist Desire."

There's an article in it written by the editor of the collection where she talks about her own guilt as a straight-identified feminist woman and how she navigates dating men while attempting to avoid some of the cliched roles that samhita mentions. She thinks that heterosexuality could use some "queering up":

http://books.google.com/books?id=VlgvnIS87AQC&dq=jane+sexes+it+up&pg=PP1&ots=ekRgXm7yNb&source=bn&sig=jy-NReOIcLuByhO76N8izGbRnYY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA49,M1

Check out that list as well as the rest of the article, y'all!

I agree that the traditions of heteronorm dating are really retro (in a bad way!) and are basically twisted!

However, my theory is that these traditions might be useful socially when viewed as a "code" for romantic/relationship intentions.

I'm a direct person. However, I've been forced to acknowledge that most humans have problems with directness, usually reading it as extreme "rudeness" or "disrespect" towards them. This happens both in romantic/social situations and also at work with people I'm supervising. Everyone needs to save face.

Yeah, they should all change and be more rational, but of course this is not going to happen.

Thus, I think the idiotic romantic dance described in the list is kind of a way for men and women at the initial stages of attraction to plainly show their intentions and check if the other person is open to them or not. If the other person refuses to "play" the game back (not calling, canceling dates, showing up dressed really sloppy or with another person), then the the initiator (hopefully) gets the message and moves on without having to have his ego destroyed.

The weird thing is that sometimes people can't or refuse to "hear" the clear "not into you" messages that their crushes are giving off. Then you gotta be direct and they'll probably hate you for it because they're ego gets bruised, but oh well.

Obviously, in a more mature relationship, the romantic cliches are not needed anymore and are therefore are mostly abandoned, except when they're dragged out to serve a symbolic or nostalgic purpose (Valentine's day, anniversaries, etc).

I've never followed any of these rules, and I don't, as far as I can see, have as many partners as my more conventional acquaintances. Sometimes it gets me down, but the relationships I've had in the past were fairly fulfilling--at least, if they were unfulfilling, it wasn't because I felt dominated or objectified, which are problems my friends have encountered, some many times.

For those of us who even pass the basic tests of the heteronormal dating world, it's sort of an either-or choice. You can have the occasional respectful partner, or you can have lots of partners. Neither one is great. "Be yourself" works as long as you're willing to go long stretches of time without dating--if, like me, you aren't conventionally pretty or conventionally dressed or shaved or makeup-wearing, etc. (Really, the only thing I got going for me is my body type, and my personal fashion sense doesn't display it in a conventional way.)

Ten Things I hate about heteronormative dating as a man:

1. If you ask a woman out too early you "only want one thing," but if you wait, she usually finds someone else.

2. You constantly have to put yourself on the line, if you're too anxious/tired to strike up a conversation, the opportunity's blown and you've only yourself to blame.

3. If you show any emotion, you're a woman.

4. If you don't show emotion and play it cool, then you start to wonder when the hell you can show emotion, and why you're even dating if you can't.

5. It's expensive, and if you can only afford a cheap date, you're automatically less manly.

6. It makes same sex couples feel "less than."

7. It dictates your interaction in most social settings and social circles, whether you are single or coupled. It is either/or, there is no 3rd identity or in-between.

8. If you have sex too early, you won't be taken seriously, you're the "fling" or the "rebound guy," not the boyfriend.

9. If you don't have sex early on, you're declaring the relationship platonic and romantic overtures after that point will either be ignored, joked about, or come off as "creepy and wierd."

10. It is expected to lead to marriage, whether or not you can afford a family.

Bonus:

11. You're expected to dehumanize a woman as nothing other than an obstacle to sex. Developing "your game" consists of finding ways to thwart a woman's personality and judgment. Even when it works, it feels awful.

12. There is no excuse ever not to be having sex.

Number 12 is probably the reason for the prevalence of date rape in heteronormative relationships and the widespread coverage of Viagra by health plans, so it might deserve to go higher.

Ugh, I don't like a lot of that junk.

Even though I was pressing 30 the number of dates I had in my life I could've counted on one hand (I couldn't deal with the rejection thing and had no confidence).

So I did the internet dating and met my wife. Now we're 33, married, and have agree to just be ourselves. She doesn't feel the pressure to be feminine and I don't feel the pressure to be a manly man. Both of us are much happier than if we had to be something we're not.

And yeah, the pressure is a ton less than when I was in college. In college and especially high-school there's a ton of pressure to be a certain way. Thank goodness that lessens dramatically as we get older. Life has enough pressures as it is.

Samhita, have you read Margaret Leroy's Some Girls Do: Why Women Do -- and Don't -- Make the First Move? It sounds like it would be great research for your own book. The author deconstructs a lot of dating myths, and also goes into the history of courtship and portrayals of "forward" women in pop culture.

"Have to"? You don't "have to" do *any* of these.

My personal experience:

1. Do not dress nice, never did. Do not wait to get asked out, never did. If I was interested in a guy I told him so. Sometimes a guy was interested in me first, so he asked me first, but I certainly wasn't waiting for him.

2. Do not play by the rules that give men power. That way you will scare away any man who has to have power over you.

3. Yeah, don't do this. Showing too much emotion gives him power over you. You can let him know how you feel and see if he responds appropriately. If he doesn't, dump him.

4. I don't even understand this one. If a man seems to love a woman more than the woman loves him... he wields social privilege to put her in her place? What social privilege? In that position, our society actually *says* women have all the cards.

5. So get the tab and the door yourself. Also, do all the driving. It's amazing how much more secure you'll feel when he is sitting in the passenger seat of your car listening to your music with the climate control set the way you like it. Don't be an ass, you can accomodate his requests, but do so in *your* car.

6. Yeah, this does suck. If you're not bi, there's nothing you can do about it.

7. You're in the wrong social circles, then.

8. Don't date men who think this way.

9. Don't date men who think this way. (My first boyfriend waited 2 years for me. My second boyfriend, I had sex on the second date, and that was only because I was waiting for permission from the ex-wife who'd abandoned him, to make sure she didn't still consider him "hers".)

10. I am married and don't have a ring on my finger. When I was single, I was pretty clear on the concept that I didn't give much of a damn if I ever got married or not.

Really, *none* of this stuff is impossible to avoid. I second the posters who said "just be you." Who the hell needs a man who won't wait until you're ready for sex, or thinks less of you because you slept with him, or thinks that if he pays for a meal he's paid for your body? *You* take *him* out to a place that's in *your* budget and if he doesn't like it say "Ok, you can treat next time, since you make more than me and can afford a nicer place." If that bothers him, dump him. there are 3 billion men in the world. You don't *have* to play these games to find a good one and in fact they work against you finding a good one, in much the same way as getting eight zillion pieces of spam works against you finding an email from your friend.

1) The "how early is too early for sex" rule does not apply to all men. I have had sex with women on the first and second dates and its resulted in 3 long-term relationships. I will never judge a woman on how early she wants to have sex. That just lets me know that we dig each other physically early on, and we want to both act on it. Nothing wrong with that. Sex feels good. Period.

2) Conversely, I will never judge a woman and call her a "prude" if she wants to wait a couple weeks or months to kick things off in bed. We all have emotional baggage from prior experiences with the opposite sex and sometimes people, yes even us guys, may need a little time off from the ol' in-out. If I like everything else about her and she captivates me, I'd sincerely be more than happy to get to know her first. In High School a girlfriend made me wait for a couple of months at the peak of my sexual prowess, but it was worth it because I just fell in love with her while we were courting. It was one of the most magical times of my life.

3) The flipside to this coin. Why am I, as a man expected to pay for everything and then have to put-out? If I don't pay, I'm not man enough. If I don't put out, I'm not man enough or gay. What ever happened to taking a walk in the park, holding hands and looking into each other's eyes, whispering corny jokes to each other and just kissing for hours like second base didn't even exist?

Just got home.

Someone mentioned that they can't think of a group that *can't* date. I'm talking de facto here.

For instance, I have personal stakes here. I have Asperger syndrome. I'm not trying to play oppression Olympics here, but this means that unless you also have it, you cannot even begin to understand how difficult something as simple as just, say, greeting someone is. That's privilege.

The prognosis for people with Asperger's, as it applies to relationships, is terrible. One statistic I've seen says that fewer than 10% of adults with Asperger's have successful relationships. I imagine that for people with full-blown autism, the statistic is lower.

I guess they should just be themselves, though. That'll solve everything. Smiley face!

The whole introducing sex into a relationship part of things always confounded me. For me (and I only speak for myself) sex is part of a relationship but not the most interesting part. I actually find sex a bit boring and repetitive ;) and it's not for lack of trying new things (I have done almost everything- seriously)... that's just way I am.

So sex isn't that important to me. I am perpetually worried that objects of romantic interest are going to start wanting sex right away- they often do- and I still haven't figured out how to deal. I'm not asexual, but I feel asexuals' pain at trying to establish non-sex-centric intimate relationships.

Only once I found a brief connection with a queer man- we had a highly sensual and genderqueer relationship, but never had sex... my friends couldn't relate. How could we date and spend the night and go to fetish clubs but not have sex?

i'm not understanding the "groups of people who can't date" thing, either. and criticizing people who need some space to blow off steam about how dating at times sucks....really isn't helpful. are you saying that because some people in the world can't date that everyone else should automatically think it's sunshine and roses? i don't buy it....some people in the world can't vote. doesn't mean george w. bush is an awesome president.

Tuesday Ten: Ten things I absolutely hate about heteronormative dating.

In no particular order.

1. You are expected to dress nice and act a certain way "waiting" to get asked out.

This Guy: I would love to dress nice and wait to be asked out (as long as you’re hot.) It’s sucks when an ugly asks you out. Don’t act like it doesn’t happen to you guys ALL THE EFFING TIME!

2. You have to play by the rules which generally give men most of the power. (wait till he calls you, don't be too forward, be mysterious-you don't want to scare him off, etc)

This Guy: Yah, our rules suck too. We have to call her because we asked for her number. We have to wait 2 days to call, otherwise we appear too eager and looserish. Be aloof, you don’t want her thinking you sit at home all day downloading porn and playing video games waiting to jump at the chance to get some vajayjay, you want her to think that you spend your time doing other stuff. What that may be is a mystery to us as well.

3. If you show emotion too early on or too much of it, you are needy.

This Guy: True, if you are all, “We are so perfect together” after the first date, we realize we got the female equivalent of the guy above. Presumably some girl that sits at home all day reading books and horoscopes hoping and waiting for the chance to get some dick and a hug afterward. No one likes to admit they are the loser in the relationship, so it will almost always be you.

4. If you don't show enough emotion, you are making the other party insecure forcing them to wield social privilege to silence your daring attempt at independence from self obliteration via coupling.

This Guy: Uh… What?

5. It fetishizes unequal power relations between women. He'll get the tab, he'll get the door as long as he gets the vagina, and that is considered "romance."

This Guy: If you get the tab and you get the door, I’ll give you the penis. I think that “fairitizes” the situation.

6. It makes same sex couples feel "less than."

This Guy: I think that statement makes them feel “less than” because holy crap if I’ve ever seen a generalized assumption.

7. It dictates your interaction in most social settings and social circles, whether you are single or coupled. It is either/or, there is no 3rd identity or in-between.

This Guy: Yah, I have trouble telling people in social circles that me and my whatchamacallit over here are just fucking.

8. If you have sex too early you ruined it.

This Guy: ::GASP:: Never say that.

9. If you don't have sex early on you are a prude.

This Guy: It’s better than being called gay. Cause that’s what happens to us. Yah, you call US gay. Talk about making them feel “less than.”

10. It is expected to lead to marriage (and if you don't have a ring on your finger you are "on the market.")

This Guy: I think that only happens when you’re in your 40’s.

Thanassi44 is a homo, and yes, he's my friend. I know who he's talking about in number 2... you ol snake in the grass.

No, baddesignhurts, that isn't my intention. Are you even reading my posts? I'm saying that a good deal of the advice being handed out here is at best privileged and at worst painfully glib.

I'm with katemoore on this one more and more. There are a couple problems I have with "just be yourself." The first I mentioned already: as someone who's "just myself" all the time, I date a lot less than those around me, and if it gets me down, imagine how it is for those who don't have socially acceptable body types or outgoing personalities, etc.

I'm certainly not saying, "So you should follow these rules." No way. But ultimately, there is no solution, and that's the sad part. You're damned if you do (conform, and you get the shit end of the stick) and damned if you don't ("be yourself," and see how many people are interested in you). Those of us who can "be ourselves" and still date, yes, we have privilege.

I don't think "just be yourself" is unwarranted--it's good advice for those who'll benefit from it--but katemoore is right in pointing out that this does only work for a certain privileged group. It isn't a magic wand that's certain to improve your romantic life (the "just" suggests that, if anyone is thinking of leaping in with, "But it's not supposed to be!").

Yeah, I forgot to include the second problem I have with it: basically, it sounds condescending. I know probably the people who've said it didn't mean it that way, but it seriously comes off as, "Aw, you really think you gotta do all that? Well have I got a piece of advice for you! It's so easy you'll wonder why you didn't think of it yourself!"

Yep, as someone who "just bees myself" and even as a privileged one who sometimes benefits from it, that is what it sounds like.

Seriously. I wish it were that easy.

I can see how "just be yourself (and date anyway, ignoring these rules)" is coming from a place of privilege -- but I'm not sure how observing that improves the situation for people with Asperger's.

The point of the original post was "heteronormative dating assumptions are troublesome from a feminist standpoint." The "just be yourself" posts read to me as reassurances that it's possible to date while disregarding the regular social script, and behaving in a more egalitarian or independent fashion.

If this were a critique of, say, running for exercise in a patriarchal world (women are at risk of harassment or assault when running in public, greater than men's risk, yet if we want to run at a private indoor facility our membership fees are a greater percentage of our income because women as a group are paid less than men in similar jobs, sports bras are often expensive and poorly designed, fill in your own issues) I think it'd be tangential, at best, to come into the discussion where women are telling their stories of how they cope with these issues to say "you are all coming from a place of privilege, some people are physically unable to run for exercise and suffer because of it."

Dating IS a social interaction. If you have a condition that makes social interaction harder for you than a neurotypical person, you're going to be at a disadvantage dating, and I'm not sure how pointing this out contributes to the discussion.

Do the heteronormative "rules" serve a function to help someone with Asperger's negotiate social interactions? Are there ways for neurotypical people to structure social interactions to make things more inclusive for people with Asperger's and autism? What would an inclusive dating culture look like?

I'm one of the women abandoning the heteronormative "rules" Samhita lists in the post. And, yes, I'm dating. I have a number of admitted advantages: I'm reasonably attractive and slender, I've got a large social circle, I'm not looking for marriage, and I'm open to nontraditional relationship structures. My social circle forms a culture that supports all of this.

What would a culture that supported Asperger's or autism-spectrum people in forming relationships look like?

I keep reading women here making excuses for allowing men to pay for them. That's as much of a problem as the assumption that men will pay more. It should be up to each individual couple who pays what and when. It shouldn't be a statement about the equality of the relationship. It shouldn't be any of society's business at all.

yes, katemoore, i read your posts. i think you bring up a valid point, though, like i said, not exceptionally helpful to this discussion.

as someone who has been involved in relationships with the disabled (one had asperger's, one had muscular dystrophy) and has a disability herself (epilepsy), i think i can sympathize and, in some fashion, empathize with you here. (yeah, if i want to spend the night with someone, i have to have that fabulous conversation, "ummmm....sooo....if i sleep in your bed, ummmm....have your phone nearby because you might have to call the paramedics. oh, and do you know CPR?" guess how well that goes over.) but again, dating effing blows at times, for reasons totally unrelated to my or their disabilities. and i do think there are some pretty shit-tastic cultural norms (brought about by heterosexuals like myself) that people both need a safe space to vent about them and constructive ways to tear them down.

being yourself is, IMHO, a rather simplistic but ultimately true bit of advice. what the hell else am i supposed to do? wishing my sleep seizures away hasn't worked so far. and i'm only so good at suppressing my brash personality. (i've been told it's the new yorker in me.) so if i want to date, i have to find someone who appreciates me because i suck at faking it (and knows CPR).

i've spent long periods single and i've been in long-term relationships, and i've found i can be both happy or unhappy in either one. i've found i'm happiest when i'm pursuing my goals, laughing with the ones i love, and taking care of myself and my daughter, with or without a relationship. none of that ever involved "expecting the dude to pay and then i give out the poontang." BLECH.

@ Wendell

Thanks for the feedback! It's nice to know that I helped at least one person.

@ Judith Jewcakes
"Be yourself" works as long as you're willing to go long stretches of time without dating--if, like me, you aren't conventionally pretty or conventionally dressed or shaved or makeup-wearing, etc.

Yes, life is full of tradeoffs. After trying it out in high school I eventually abandoned most of the traditional "feminine" stuff - shaving, make up, high heels, dresses, etc. And I'm not really conventionally pretty. So, yeah, I often went long periods (at times years) without dating. I much preferred that option to trying to fit into a passive role that felt demeaning. Being alone, or hanging out with friends, was a much better way to spend my time than being with a sexist jerk on a stereotypical date.

@ idiolect

I appreciate your further explanation. Social interactions are often complex and have many layers to them. I hope I did not imply that you were "wringing your hands" over some dude, LOL!

I responded so strongly to your message because you mentioned #2 as an obstacle. Dating rules #1 (he asks) and #2 (don't call him) and #5 (he pays) speak to an important issue to me, the sexist idea that female=passive and male=dominant in the hetero world of dating. I refuse to be forced into a passive role simply because I am female. I really did think this idea was completely rejected by all feminists by now (aren't all the folks who are reading and posting here feminists? both women and men?) so it surprised me to see the issue raised here.

My very first thought on reading Samhita's message was, seriously? It's still a big deal if a woman asks a guy out on a date? It's still expected that the man pays? I thought those ideas were as outdated as requiring a chaperone for unmarried couples.

I was aware of many of the issues still facing young women: body image, society's ideals of beauty, issues of class, race, gender identity, disability, and many more. But somehow, in my idealism, I thought the dating game, at the very least the part of it where women are expected to be passive was long gone by now. I'm not in the dating game any more. I didn't know. Now I do.

So, take these thoughts as the ramblings of a 47 year old woman who never dreamed that young women of today would have any fear of being seen as "too aggressive." Wow. It's like I'm having flashbacks of high school were people told me that a smart girl should act dumb in order to get a date. Sheesh. I said if that's true then fine, I won't date. I kept on getting straight As in math/science, went on to get an engineering degree, and never regretted one minute of it.

I am so sorry to hear that young women feel peer pressure to conform to these rules that push them into a passive role. I think women should be rewarded for being strong, assertive, and asking for what they want without apology.

Why is this still happening? I'd love to read some analysis on why women are still buying into this "I have to be submissive" shit.

Okay, this is already way long enough - please forgive any typos or rambling since it's late. Peace!

ahimsa -- it's late and I'm kind of woozy-brained so I won't say as much about this as I would like, but mostly I just want to say that it is pretty evidently still the case that smart, strong women who know what they want and have the nerve to ask for it are Intimidating. This ends up being exacerbated in all sorts of weird ways when you put that into the context of all the messy issues surrounding dating.

Dear Katemoore:
I empathize with where you are coming from, I really do. However, it still bothers me that you injected the privilege argument into this discussion. I've been in a lot of "anti-oppression" groups, so I'm familiar with that term. While I agree that it is absolutely essential to recognize one's privilege before attempting to be a change agent, I've often heard that term employed to minimize someone's opinion as less important.

As a pretty attractive young white woman, I am aware I have lots of privilege, but that doesn't make my experiences irrelevant to this issue. And as an un-privileged person (on this issue, at least), your experiences aren't irrelevant either!

See, when I try to address the issues that have come up for me in heteronormative dating (forced and excruciatingly painful intercourse, the invisibility of my bisexual identity, and all sorts of other unpleasantries), it would be irrelevant to tell me told that my thoughts "drip with privilege." I know I'm privileged, but my pain still hurts like anyone else's.

All I want is for us to be a little kinder on these comments. The oppression of women "privileged" enough to date is a feminist problem because the oppression of ALL women is a feminist issue.

In the context of dating, I think "be yourself" means "be the best possible version of yourself that you can manage". If you're in to comic books and role playing games, talk about it, but don't talk exclusively about it, for instance. Shower, for another instance.

I've got to ditto everyone saying "Rules? Who says there are rules?"

If you're reading Feministing, you're probably a little out of the norm, which means you're not looking for just anybody. Even if you're not reading Feministing, you're probably not just looking for a warm body. You're looking for someone to have a relationship, and given the idiosyncrasies of human nature, that means you're looking for a needle in a haystack.

Following "the rules" just adds more hay to the stack. An illustrative story:

When I got divorced, my ex got our only car, so I went car shopping. At one point, I was checking out a brown Taurus station wagon, thinking about its usefulness in hauling lumber, sleeping in the back on camping trips, etc., and the salesman, who I'd told why I was buying a car, said, "A station wagon kind of says 'family guy'. Not exactly a chick magnet, you know?"

I replied, "That's good. I wouldn't want to date someone who was only into me because of my car, and driving this would eliminate them right off the bat."

That being said, I hated dating, and wasn't particularly good at it. Apparently I'm an acquired taste.

It's fear that keeps us from ditching the rules. Certainly "being yourself", is going to narrow your dating pool. And if you already don't belong to the "ideal catch" pool, it will be all the more isolating.

But the reverse option doesn't seem too cool either. How many people are wasting the prime years of their creative lives, stagnating in a loveless relationship with someone who doesn't really know them?

"self-obliteration through coupling?" I'm actually quite happy that my partner has become part of my identity - not all of it, of course, but a significant part of it. I am: a white woman, a scientist, a blogger, a food enthusiast, and married to Andy. A swinging single I am not, nor have I ever been. I'll admit that when I attend any event without my husband, people ask me where he is, and it's generally expected that if I'm somewhere he will be too. I use "we" often where I could mean "I," but we really do spend a lot of time together and socialize in basically the same circle. We've been absurdly close this year, since I narrowly missed coming down with a fatal condition, and he had to take a break from school to take care of me for a few months after I had major surgery.

This list seems odd to me in part because it seems like "don't do the things that make you unhappy" is a perfectly viable option to several of these issues.

For instance, if a woman asks a man out to coffee is she liable to get a damaging reputation?

Rick, to answer your question, it really depends. I've lived in small towns where everyone knows everyone's business and yes, it can be damaging to a woman's reputation if she asks the guy out in that kind of situation. There are also friendship circles that I've been tangentially attached to where I've seen women denigrated for asking a guy out. I've even been subject to some of it myself, since I was never shy about showing interest in the people I was interested in; luckily, I had other friendship options and didn't have to lose my entire social life to find people who were more in line with my own beliefs. So while you and I can say that we just do what we want to do, there are people who can only do that at the risk of their social lives (and as someone who's been relatively isolated for a few years while concentrating on work and school, I can tell you that it is seriously damaging to a person to be isolated like that).

saraeanderson, I'm glad you said that because my husband and I are the same way. We are absolutely best friends and spend a LOT of time together. But we are also very lucky (I'm guessing the same is true for you and your husband?) that we fit each other almost perfectly and neither felt/feel as though we have had to change in any way for the other, so there has been no "personal obliteration", just mutual entertwinement.

1. Why wouldn't you dress nice? No person, regardless of sex is going to approach a slob. It's like a job interview, you wouldn't show up to an interview with ripped jeans and a ratty t-shirt. First impressions count.

2. You don't have to do this. Do what you think is right and if it scares him/her away, then maybe it might not work in the long run. Also, most people have mobile phones, so I don't buy the woman waiting by the phone saying "why wont he call?". Carry on with your life, if they call, they call. If not, it's there loss.

3. Um..there is some validity towards this. Just be yourself though. Being too aloof or emotional, shows signs of neediness or desperation. Not attractive traits.

4. Huh?! Being a little over-analytical are we...I think.

5. One: Regardless of him paying, you are not obligated to pay him "with vagina". Two: If its a power struggle, then reverse it. You can pay them tab! Take the power back. Three: It's not romantic, its chivalrous. Also, men are becoming less chivalrous as time passes. So your wish may be granted.

6. Um...How? Dating is dating regardless of orientation.

7. Well, there are really only two options. Your either single or your not. What other term could be used to define the intermediate step? Also, as time passes the pressure to be one or the other is diminishing.

8 and 9: Do what makes you feel comfortable. If he/she gets frustrated, they will either communicate it or leave. Either way it works in your favor.

10: Um..no! Not every relationship leads to marriage. Just state your intentions up front and be honest with them. If you only want a casual relationship, say so.

Most of these "complaints" are easily avoidable by not playing into "the game", communicating your wishes and being honest.

Hi,

I support the principle of people being individuals and different and being left alone to be themselves and not feeling forced into being what they are not. But there is one point in the original post that I see come up time and again:

"There is no guide to dating outside of patriarchy, there is no narrative for if you want to do it on your own or if you don't want to get married, but you don't want to be single either. Many women are caught in the middle, trapped between the discourse of what is expected and what they want."

If you are individual and capable of making your own decisions, why is there a need for a 'guide' or a 'narrative' to tell you how to do things differently and individually?

It's like you are saying, 'patriarchal society tries to railroad me into X, I want a society that will railroad me into Y, where Y is the things that I like'. Be individual. Yes, find like-minded individuals as friends, but don't want everyone in society to be like-minded individuals, just like you.

Slightly different situation, but I am reminded of teenagers who rebel against what they see to be conventional dress, so they dress differently to assert their independence, but then all the rebel teenagers dress the bloody same!

Seems to me that there are very few true individuals out there.

Number one thing I hate:
Being asked when I am going to get married.

When people meet my partner of five years, they ask, "so...when are you two going to get married?"

My response to most people has now become, "I don't know if I'm into marriage."

Samhita,

I think you're confusing sexism with heterosexuality and heteronormativity. Not all heterosexuals in relationships relate in the way that you outline. The style of dating that you describe is certainly alive and well...for those that participate in certain social groups. One that comes to mind for me would be the sorority and fraternity system in the United States in which these dynamics may be very alive and well. However, I for one can count the number of people in my life that engage in this very old, very outdated dynamic on one hand.

Perhaps another effective way to approach this book topic would be "why I engage in a style of heterosexual dating that I hate so much." Then you could get into the sexism that you've internalized, and ways in which this sexism has played out in the way you relate to men. Your book could include interviews with many women of all sexual orientations about ways in which they relate romantically, and possible hypotheses as to why internalized sexism plays out in so many different ways for so many different people. This would be a more third wave feminist, post-modern analysis that isn't as 'us against them.' In truth, I find your list to be heterosnormative, not the dynamic itself.

As a gay woman, I do not feel as though my short hair or my gender-ambiguity or my neediness or my assertion of my independence limits my ability to date at all. In fact, I've found that the more and more I behave in a way that is congruent with who I am at my very core, the better my experiences are when I date, and the better my relationships are with not only romantic partners, but friends too. I also find that I "hate" much less often. Perhaps you too have resentment when things aren't aligned?

Looking within at the true source of your angst, and working toward unfolding your true self might be the ticket to a happier you...not pathologizing a way of being that actually does suit people for whom this dynamic actually works. I guess what I'm trying to say is: you have choice in the matter--and that includes the choice to participate in this dance that you outline.

I read all those reply's just to make sure I wasn't repeating... but I am.

As a man, I hate these rules, probably as much as everyone here does. All the intelligent men I know hate these rules. The men I've encountered who actually put stock in most of these rules are mostly stupid.

your suggestion are quite impressive, they can help everyone who want to have girlfriend or have desire to make his relationship strong.
again thank you for your tips.
henrymaquli
adult