McCain totally looks like a raptor in that picture!

I'm so glad to see that there's been a media reaction to this, rather than them just forgetting about it. It's good to see them take issue with it. I don't see how anyone - pro-choice or not - can defend his wording and air-quoting.

Love. Obama.

What frustrates me is that no one in the media -- incl. anyone from Planned Parenthood -- has identified the particular medical situations in which a woman's life could be at risk in the third trimester. While I recognize that there is the mental health component, providing examples of physical danger to women will more effectively reach voters in the middle of the electorate. Many people uncomfortable with "abortion on demand" would recognize that there is a right to remain alive/healthy, and would want their daughter/wives/mothers to survive pregnancy.

For gosh sakes, why has no one done that? The outrage would be FAR more effective if there were a clear description of how these medical situations arise.

My low opinion of Chris Matthews has definitely gone up a notch as a result of this interview. He took that McCain supporter to task! I'm always astounded by how anti-choicers have the gall to be so completely dismissive of a woman's health, and her right to make medical decisions. Could she have *been* more unprofessional? I'm curious about who she is- "a McCain supporter"? Like, someone who lives down the street from the producer, who happened to have the morning free to do an interview? I'd hope she has more qualifications than that, but from her behavior, I doubt it.

On the other hand, I thought Cecile Richards was eloquent, as always.

Ha! That Republican woman was about to say that John McCain supports a "culture of life" right before she got cut off! Yes, a "culture of life" definitely makes light of women's health issues. Of course a "culture of life" cares more about zygotes, embryos, and fetuses than about women. I've always loved that "culture of life" bullshit.

seriously. even chris matthews looked appalled by her. he looked like he wanted to shut her mic right off.

Can anyone transcribe some highlights? I'm hearing impaired and not very good with TV/videos without CC. Thanks in advance! (And so I'm not double-posting this, could anyone help out with the Obama ad that was posted today, too?)

All she could do was yell "Dead babies! Dead babies! Dead babies!" I mean, I think a lot of pro-life people have been more eloquent than that.

Does "supporting" mean "bought and paid for?" I'd like some clarification on that accusation, actually.

The fact that for John McCain speaks in terms of Pro-Life or Pro-Abortion makes me sick.

It reminds me of Prez Bush with the whole If your not for the war you're against the troops.

That one sided mentality makes me want to get him pregnant and force him to carry the baby to term.

How can John McCain or his supporters say he supports a "culture of life" when he is pro-capital punishment? Either all life is sacred or it isn't; you can't have it both ways. If you're for capital punishment, you're not pro-life, period.

That sort of thing is incredibly damning to the pro-life movement. I mean, that "McCain Supporter" was interrupting, rude, hysterical... The PP leader was calm, rational, and knew what she was saying. It paints anti-choicers as insane (which many can be).

I also thought it was weird that they pitted Richards against a "McCain Supporter". WTF. It's insulting to think that a "McCain Supporters" opinion is worth more than the friggin President of PP!!!! Even after researching who this woman is it didn't help at all.

A transcribe of this and other things would be really great!!

God, I love Cecile Richards.

But where was that other woman getting her facts? Seriously. I have no idea what she was talking about.

They couldn't find anyone more authoritative than a "McCain supporter" to talk about this issue? This person does not know what she's talking about and, unlike Cecile Richards, has no credentials to talk on this subject.

This was brought up by someone else, but I wanted to say it, too:

When did "pro-choice" become "pro-abortion"?

I can understand pro-life's name, though I prefer the more accurate "anti-choice," because they literally are pro-life (w/o taking into account how they feel about the death penalty).

But pro-choice as pro-abortion? I'm sure there are uncountable pro-choicers who might not choose an abortion for themselves.

@Flippy: I've actually had experience with that kind of "dead baby" screeching before. When I spoke on a panel about reproductive choice issues, some nut in the audience started screaming that I was a murderer and had to be removed. Everyone, including the pro-life panelists, were shaken by it, and the priest on the panel was really apologetic later about "zealous supporters" of the pro-life movement. To me, it shows how hard of a time they have defending their positions with rational argument, but I suppose it's effective to some.

Possibly I am being over-simplistic here (and feel free to tell me if I am) but I have always thought that "pro-life" should read "pro-outright-and-total control of women's bodies".

Just as society controls us with accusations of "fat" and dieting and beauty standards - it does the same thing with abortion rights.

For this reason I tend not to give much credence to "pro-lifers" or anyone denying me my basic human rights to my body.

I certainly campaign on abortion rights but I just tend to dismiss all the rest of the verbal rubbish surrounding the "debate".

I have had an abortion - and it was unpleasant but I would never expect another woman not to do it because I hated it. One day, I may indeed need another.

But if anyone comes to me with that "right to life" rubbish, I always just come back with the same retort - "So you enjoy controlling my body then?" They usually can't think of a response to that!

I think "forced birth movement" works as a name for the prolifers, since so many of them seem to approach women's sexuality that way.

I second the request to know what types of conditions would be considered to be detrimental to the health of the mother, and would lead to a late term abortion?

I'd love to be able to just spout off a list, if anyone tries to throw this stuff at me.

By far, the best I have ever seen Chris Matthews. I particularly liked his refusal to make "partial birth" and "late term" synonymous, and Barbara's confusion at the that. Also, when she tried to scream out a sentence as he was segueing to the next piece.

I agree that discussing some of the health problems that necessitate it would be a good move--most Americans, thankfully, have not had to face a late term abortion and would likely be understanding if they knew what the problem really was.

Otherwise, we have a lot of she said/she said shouting that takes us all back to our childhood with our siblings. And that's not really comforting.

I think there are some pro-life people who are truly concerned only with "life" part and aren't motivated by controlling women. There have been some good posts over on Community discussing the pro-life and anti-choice people. Of course, that's not who's on television screaming at Cecile Richard and protesting at clinics.

But I don't know anyone who's pro-abortion. I think we're all for ending abortions - not through outlawing them (which WON'T end them), but by providing the resources necessary to all women (and men) to prevent unwanted pregnancy. I mean, seriously, who has McCain heard saying, "I love abortions! Yay abortions!"?

KJT - totally with you on the "pro-abortion" thing. And I'm sure he picked his wording very carefully to paint being pro-choice as pro-baby killing. As if anybody who is pro-choice runs around demanding that mothers to be are given information on abortion when they go to their doctor. You know, so they know all their options. As if pro-choice people picket outside OB-GYN offices. As if pro-choice people try to make mother believe that they're committed some unspeakable sin by giving birth. Oh no, no wait. Thats how the ANTI-CHOICE crowds operate.

PeggyLuWho--

I'm not a doctor so this is certainly not an exhaustive list, but here are a few conditions. The most common is preeclampsia, a life-threatening rise in blood pressure that usually occurs after 5 months gestation and has no known cure, except abortion or delivery. Some women also develop gestational diabetes (usually not life-threatening but I think there are exceptions). There are also a number of pre-existing conditions women can have that make pregnancy dangerous: asthma, hepatitis, etc. Often these conditions don't start causing significant problems until later in the pregnancy. If a woman is diagnosed with cancer during pregnancy, she will not be able to undergo cancer treatment until she aborts or delivers.

The fetus can also have a number of conditions that make it non-viable and aren't discovered until later in the pregnancy. Although these conditions seldom cause a problem for the mother's physical health, it strikes me as cruel to everyone involved to make her carry to term. I think this was what McCain was implying to when he referred to "stretching the meaning of health." How is the emotional trauma of being forced to essentially carry a corpse in your body not a legitimate mental health concern?

was it just me or did any of you just want to go in there and hit barbara until she shut up? it really got me frustrated when she would begin talking over people...and her words. they gave me a major headache. can she honestly be any worse? i think so...

oh and that picture of mccain. wow, i'm not going to be able to sleep well tonight. he looks as creepy as he thinks.

Wow, that forced-birther really came out looking uninformed, rude and a pretty dim-witted too.

Is anyone else weirded out that he kept referring to "these young women"? As if the only people who have abortions or have a want/need for reproductive choices are those who are "immature" or "uneducated" (or as if being young, immature, or/and uneducated is a reason that you don't deserve choice).

There is NO SUCH THING AS PARTIAL-BIRTH ABORTION!!!!!

queerbandit (love your name, btw!):

I highly doubt the situation you described is what McCain was referring to when he mentioned "stretching" the definition of health. Pro-lifers like him are secretly convinced that if we include a health exception on late-term abortions, women and doctors everywhere will conspire to use "mental distress" and fake conditions as reasons to abort their babies late-term. (Because of course we're all just DYING to kill our babies during the third trimester cuz it's SO much more fun than during the early ones.)

I don't agree with him at all, but it's important to understand where they're coming from if we want to discredit them properly...

YES, Megs!!!!

Can we stop using the term "partial-birth abortion," please? It's not a medical term. It does not refer to any specific late-term abortion procedure. It was invented by the anti-choice movement to sound scary. Let's not use their language!

I wonder if the Republicans know how BAD they look when they smirk through the other person's turn, or when they ignore the question to harp on the "talking points". I don't understand why every single Republican in the public forum has adopted this assholey approach to debate, and then expect to look like heroes.

Who is this woman? She reminded me of a hostile Sarah Palin...she never answered a question directly, but if she picked up on a key term, she would go of on a tangent about that. And so ignorant!

WOW. The bottom line is Cecile Richards doesn't need to stretch the truth, get hysterical, or use emotion to convince others because she has logic and rationality on her side. She barely even talked about abortion... for the vast majority of the time she was talking about prevention of unintended pregnancies.

The fact that the "pro-life" movement doesn't focus on prevention shows that they aren't just anti-abortion.. If their true concern was reducing abortions, what could be better than preventing unintended pregnancies that someone might want to abort in the first place? The fact that the pro-life movement ignores prevention of unintended pregnancies (the root of the problem and a fix to their claimed qualm) shows that their aim isn't just to stop abortions, but to promote their entire value system, which is anti-sex and anti-women.

In addition to providing real-world examples of risks to pregnant women's health, I wish pro-choicers with access to the media would highlight the many things that can go wrong with the fetus. Fetal abnormalities or conditions incompatible with life are another major reason for later-term abortions. Anti-choicers want to force women to let their fetuses suffer and die inside them and then carry them around until they're allowed to "give birth." For many women, it's safer and more comforting to get an abortion. But fuck those horrible women, right?

LizM--

I think we're in agreement, I just did a poor job of explaining what I meant. If a fetus has a condition that makes it nonviable, the woman may decide to get a late term abortion. That is legal because of the effect of the mother's mental health, a valid exception.

Only McCain and those like him hear "mental health" and consider it some kind of fake, worthless reason. (I mean, just suck it up, right? *rolls eyes*). So I think there are two issues: 1. disregard for women's health and choices. 2. Lack of respect for the significance of mental health issues.

Y'know, I could swear that Clinton appeared with several women who'd had late term abortions when he vetoed that awful "partial-birth abortion" law. At least one of them was a conservative Christian who went on to make some public appearances telling her story, which was heart-breaking (her daughter had a birth defect that was causing the mother's body to produce too much amniotic fluid and was making her head too big to deliver without risking a uterine rupture).

As for why a woman in advanced pregnancy would need an abortion to save her life or health, here are a few reasons:

Type I diabetes
Kidney failure
Heart problems
Cancer discovered during the pregnancy
Hydramnios
Fetal death
Car accident
Liver failure
Eclampsia
Stroke
Domestic violence
Multiple pregnancy with one of the fetuses dying

Those sure sound like good reasons to me, but Leslee Unruh and her ilk think otherwise.

Megs and Cecilia, you've left me a bit confused. I thought that the term "partial birth abortion" was made up by pro-lifers to describe the procedure intact dilation and extraction in order to make it sound more controversial. Tell me if I'm wrong please, I'm a little new to some of this stuff.

Megs and Cecilia, you've left me a bit confused. I thought that the term "partial birth abortion" was made up by pro-lifers to describe the procedure intact dilation and extraction in order to make it sound more controversial. Tell me if I'm wrong please, I'm a little new to some of this stuff.

I'm still confused about the stance of the McCain supporter. Is she saying that if a woman needs to have an abortion for her health or to save her life, she SHOULDN'T be allowed to unless the fetus will be born dead? Because that's just fucking ridiculous.
Because she's basically saying she's okay with a dead mother, but not a dead baby.

Posted by PullTaffy Author Profile Page | October 17, 2008 10:05 AM

Ha! That Republican woman was about to say that John McCain supports a "culture of life" right before she got cut off! Yes, a "culture of life" definitely makes light of women's health issues. Of course a "culture of life" cares more about zygotes, embryos, and fetuses than about women. I've always loved that "culture of life" bullshit.

^^Well of COURSE they care more about the fetuses, they might after all, be males!!

DH:

http://www.marieclaire.com/world/news/why-abortion

It's an essay by Gretchen Voss about her late term abortion. She's a good example because she had WANTED the baby, and her father and father in law were both pro-life but thought she did the right thing by aborting.

She also uses some great examples, like a woman who miscarried but didn't expel the fetus, a woman who discovered she was carrying conjoined twins that could not survive, etc. These abortions are all potentially illegal.

did anyone else get the sense that the "McCain supporter" was basically saying in her first comment that there was no such thing as woman's health issues, by which I think she means that the risk of a mother facing a health problem due to pregnancy/delivery didn't exist?..I could have totally mis-heard that, just curious. Ideas?

Did anyone else expect the "McCain supporter" woman was rather startlingly like the crazy lady from the Simpsons? I half expected her to throw a cat at the screen in the middle of her word salad.

She kept babbling "talking point" after talking point, but never actually addressing the "hey, sometimes, pregnancies don't go on as they do in fairy tales. Sometimes, unfortunately, bad things happen, and the women involved are stuck between a rock and a very hard place."

There's no one thinking "well, I'm 9 months pregnant and I have a cold... better have an abortion." But there are people thinking "I'm almost all the way through this pregnancy, I wanted this for myself, wanted this for my family, and now... I can't do this and still expect to be around for the family I already have. I could lose my kidneys and die, and my son and my daughter would be alone."

That shit does happen. Cat lady needs to step out from behind Big Brother, and stop kissing his ass long enough to realize the world we live in is not an ideal place.

Well, well. Mr Mc.NoBrain decided to show his true colours. That's gonna cost him his chance to be president... TWAT.
I'm going to airquote the importance of there actually being a living John McCain, as he is a rotting waste of skin. So's that little slag of an actress that he hired that calls herself Sarah Palin.

OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!