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McCain: Women's "health" is an "extreme pro-abortion position"

I'm going to have lots to say about this in tomorrow's Friday Feminist Fuck You, but I wanted to highlight this clip as soon as possible. McCain thinks so little of women's health that he put it in fucking air quotes. You know, because women's health and lives are a political talking point, not a reality.

Related: A diarist at Daily Kos shares her story. I'm sure we'll be hearing a lot more of these as the reaction to McCain's crass dismissal of women's health (sorry, "health") sinks in.

Posted by Jessica - October 16, 2008, at 12:44PM | in Election , Reproductive Rights

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59 Comments

As far as I'm aware, there is no "pro-abortion" movement. There's a pro-choice movement.

I heard McCain use the word "choice" last night and I threw up a little in my mouth. He represents a party that claims to be the party of "freedom" and "choice."

What a slimeball.

[0+] Author Profile Page kurd55 said:

FUCK YOU, MCBU$H!

[0+] Author Profile Page puppyfist said:

Thanks for posting this! I could barely stay in my seat when he said that.

A few minutes before this, though, McCain said that he "would consider anyone in their qualifications. I do not believe that someone who has supported Roe v. Wade that would be part of those qualifications. But I certainly would not impose any litmus test." The wording of the second sentence is (unsurprisingly for McCain) clumsy, so I'm not 100% sure on what he meant. It sounds to me that he thinks supporters of Roe v. Wade would be unqualified to serve on the SCOTUS. Does anyone else have any reactions to this?

puppyfist, yes that was my impression - that he wouldn't appoint someone who supported Roe. (More on this later in a post!)

[0+] Author Profile Page Tiffany said:

I love the way John McCain wants to get government out of everyone's business--unless he's talking abortion.

I kind of understand what he was saying about the health of the mother being stretched to include things that are really not health threats, because I've watched anti-abortionists use partial birth abortion in the same way. However, even with a peripheral idea of what he was talking about, it made me want to stand up and yell at the television.

I'm planning on sending an e-mail to the McCain campaign today. I know it won't make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things, but it will make me feel better.

This was absolutely horrifying. That guy is an asshat.

[0+] Author Profile Page Cate said:

This absolutely INFURIATES me! How dare he suggest that women's health isn't serious, that pro-choicers use women's health as a scheme to further our cause? What an asshole. Oh, this makes me SO MAD.

But I was so proud of Obama. I feel like he hit some bumps when talking about abortion before (which disappointed many, including me), but that he articulated himself very clearly in the debate: he is definitely pro-choice. He trusts women to make their own decisions. Obviously we would all like for there to be fewer abortions--so let's actually put policies in place that work towards that end. And best of all, he went with the good old Constitution. I almost cried when he started talking about how we have a right to privacy just as we have a right to free speech, and that it isn't something for the states to decide. I can't wait for him to be president.

yeah, puppyfist, that was a ridiculously transparent example of doubletalk...

though, you wouldn't know it if you weren't listening closely...

I do not believe that someone who has supported Roe v. Wade that would be part of those qualifications. But I certainly would not impose any litmus test.

in the same two lines, he says he "would not impose any litmus test" right after saying that he wouldn't consider anyone who supports Roe v Wade to be "qualified" for SCOTUS. that is the very definition of a litmus test.

[0+] Author Profile Page ucsbclassics53 said:

I hate to say it, but the many of the extreme anti-choicers have the same dismissive attitudes when it comes to the rape and incest exceptions. Of course they tout them like in South Dakota, but they don't really believe in them. Why? They believe that women will then cry rape in order to get an abortion, because we all know that women cry rape in order to get what they want. /sarcasm Rape apologists already claim that rape victims stretch the definition of rape. It's more of the same here.

[0+] Author Profile Page lydia said:

While watching the debate, a friend and I noticed that Obama had a 'tell' for when he would get annoyed (unlike McCain's obvious twitching)--he would drink from his water glass.

[0+] Author Profile Page 76cents said:

I had written a thoughtful comment as a mother who had a scary delivery experience where both my son and I were in jeopardy.
I had also written about being a young adult in Ireland when the law of the land put the rights of a fetus before the health of a mother (in the Constitution!!!!)
Then I realized I hadn't signed in and lost my poetic ramblings.

I watched that clip again and my response is
"Kiss my ass, McCain ! who are you to poo-poo my health???"

You are asking us to ignore your dodgy personal health, to vote for you and hope you don't croak it before your term ends. Now that's stretching the health issue.

[0+] Author Profile Page aleks said:

I want my 2000 vote for McCain back.

[0+] Author Profile Page Jennifer Walton said:

When McCain kept saying "pro-abortion" I screamed at the television "No one is pro-abortion! PRO-CHOICE, you idiot!" I was so infuriated with his use of that rhetoric to make it seem like people go out with intentions to have as many abortions as possible or making light of them in any way!

And the fact that he blew off the health of the mother comment from Obama is VERY disgusting. I'm quite appalled by his callousness, to be honest.

[0+] Author Profile Page lydia said:

Oh, I would also like to point out that several times during the abortion discussion, McCain would refer to (and not oppose) the "decision" of the woman, almost as if he were not aware that this is a synonym for "choice".

John McCain has just been named by me as one of the Assholes of the Week.

This shocked me. As a woman of reproductive age who has already had a terribly difficult successful pregnancy and an incomplete miscarriage which required a DNC to keep me from getting an infection and dying, and who plans on getting pregnant again, it's nice to know that McCain doesn't give a damn whether I live or die. He doesn't care about my husband or son and their general need to have me around either, apparently.

I don't really know why I'm so surprised, but somehow I didn't think he'd be so contemptuous of me on National TV.

Jackass. I've never thought him more deserving of a giant fuck you.

Dear Sen. McCain:

If you are elected president, please advise on when you would also require men to stand before a public legislative tribunal to receive permission to undergo a vasectomy.

Regards,

A concerned married couple

[0+] Author Profile Page RiotGrrl said:

Abortions for everyone! Apparently we pro-choicers get pregnant just to get an abortion! He's been staunchly pro-life for 2 years! I guess that's gettin' mavericky on the issues and not flip-flopping.

[0+] Author Profile Page shoegirl said:

Ok, ok. I'm furious about the McCain women's health airquotes. But why aren't you equally furious about Obama's explicit support for a BAN on late term abortion?! I've been fuming about this all morning. We now have proof that 3rd term abortions are at risk under the next president, no matter who HE is.

[0+] Author Profile Page MzBitca said:

The worst part is I was reading a fact-check article and they were claiming that McCain was correct in saying that the mothers health could mean anything and referenced psychological disorders.
I almost flipped the fuck out but I was all flippd out from last night

[0+] Author Profile Page Leslie said:

Elections can never seem to get away from the abortion issue. And every time I get really mad because while people go back and forth between the moral issue, they totally avoid the problem. Last night was the first night I've ever heard a presidential candidate (Obama) say what I've been saying all the long. If you don't want abortions, then you have to:
1) Provide effective sex education.
2) Be willing to house a pregnant teenager who's been thrown out of her home.
3) Provide daycare so these women can work or finish school.
4) Give ACCURATE adoption information.
5) Make sure the other half of the kid (the dad) does his share (do you know that men can stop an adoption plan and yet still get away with being a deadbeat?)

BTW... I was also horrified when McCain was talking about how Palin was ready to lead and added how strong her husband was. Huh? I think he totally undermined her by saying that. I wonder how strong Biden's wife is?

Not to defend McCain's position here, but I'd like to add some context to this.

The major complaint in the right-wing circles about the exemption for risk to a woman's health is that what constitutes a health risk is not defined, not limited in severity, and not even limited to physical health (emotional trauma has been used as a reason, for instance), so "health" has become a catchword meaning "any reason whatsoever that the doctor can make up". McCain's air quotes in this represent not a mockery of the importance of healthy women, but a mockery of the word "health" in the context of abortion rights to represent actual health issues.

There's a kernel of truth in this, but even disregarding the issues with overriding a doctor's judgement and whether or not a fetus has any standing to be given preference over an adult woman in any context whatsoever, there is the obvious problem that by taking the extreme stance of completely disregarding health in any context whatsoever, the hard-right is doing exactly what it accuses its opponents of doing, just in the opposite direction: instead of having an exception that covers everything, including things that may not be serious, it now makes exception for nothing, including things that may be serious. It catches on well, because it's all too easy for someone who believes that a fetus is an independent person to think, "Oh, I'd never need that exception, so it must be frivolous."

The best tactic for countering this in the moderate-right is probably to aggregate all of the circumstances where the mother's life was not at risk, but the health was, and a refusal to provide an abortion causes real problems. I remember in particular one case where the fetus was clearly nonviable (and there was no dispute about this), but the biological miscarriage mechanism wasn't being triggered, and the hospital refused to provide an abortion on the grounds that carrying a virtual corpse around for a few more months wasn't justification enough. Sadly, I didn't keep the link to that story, but an archive of links to such incidents would provide a pretty compelling countercase to "no exception is needed", I think.

It's a lot harder to be indifferent to the damage a policy causes when the thought "This could happen to me!" is lingering.

[0+] Author Profile Page Lafemme said:

I agree with obama's decision for a ban on late term abortion, (although he did state except when it interferes with the woman's health) I'm pro-choice but I feel that it is absolutely cruel to undergo such a procedure at such a late term in your pregnancy, unless of course, it is downright necessary, which is (correct me if I'm wrong) sort of what Obama was trying to say.

People have to see that not everyone is going to agree with every candidate's decisions, But I do think Obama has come very close to respecting the rights of women, more so than McCain/Palin.

Ok, lemme tell y'all a (possibly triggery) story. My friend tried to get pregnant for a very long time. She finally did, and was overjoyed. In her late second trimester, an ultrasound revealed that the fetus had severe spina bifida and most of her abdominal organs growing outside her abdominal wall. Not only was she not viable, but the very process of labor would have basically dismembered her.

My friend and her husband decided tearfully and with much regret to abort. By the time she was able to be scheduled, it was third trimester.

The mother's life was not at stake. Her reproductive health was not at stake. But the thought of having to continue to bear a doomed fetus and having the very process that was supposed to bring life (labor) kill her very wanted baby with her own body? Very much threatened her mental and emotional well-being. So fuck all the people who think emotional reasons are not good enough.

he major complaint in the right-wing circles about the exemption for risk to a woman's health is that what constitutes a health risk is not defined, not limited in severity, and not even limited to physical health (emotional trauma has been used as a reason, for instance)

Oh, screw you. Well, maybe not you personally, but anyone who thinks this isn't a valid reason. In addition to bifemmefatale's too common story, what about a woman who already has kids and has suffered severe postpartum depression each time. Is another pregnancy in anyone's best interest? Maybe it takes her family and her doctor a long time to convince that it's a bad idea to carry the pregnancy to term. Maybe she realizes late that she can't cope with another kid. Not only is it incredibly dismissive of her worth to suggest that emotional trauma isn't a reason for her, but it's also a very real danger to her living children to force her to continue the pregnancy.

Of course, to the anti-choice set, the existing kids don't matter much.

[0+] Author Profile Page jessie000 said:

thats exactly what i was going to say. there isnt a pro abortion movement in america and that just goes to fucking show you....
air quotes. wow.

[0+] Author Profile Page iamwoman said:

I'm pretty sure that Obama pointed out afterwards that NOONE is pro-abortion. I wish that the clip included Obama's response to McCain's awful statement.

[0+] Author Profile Page lucy0189 said:

I totally agree with Leslie on this one. The fact that Obama actually said that there is more to the abortion question than just a bunch of women who want to "kill their babies," but that there are a multitude of societal factors to take into consideration, made me want to wet myself while watching the debate. As to the part where he said that he supports a ban on late-term abortion with exceptions for the woman's health, I think that he just needs to add one phrase to it that would make everyone on this thread happier: "with exceptions when the mother's health or life is at risk, or when the fetus is discovered to not be viable," because the prospect of carrying to term a fetus that cannot survive outside the womb is indeed horrifying. The best thing about a ban with these exceptions is that it would probably change nothing, since I doubt anyone out there getting a late-term abortion is doing so because it took 6 months for her to make up her mind about whether or not she wanted to have the baby. I would put my money on 100% of these procedures being done for one of those reasons.

Oh, and Sen. McCain is an asshat to be sure, but maybe he was trying to trivialize the idea of "health" in general to convince voters that his own sketchy health is not an issue. I mean, he apparently doesn't think anyone has a need for real health care either... Maybe a McCain presidency will mean that everyone will be so healthy that the very idea of ill-health will be laughable and impossible, or something.

[0+] Author Profile Page Hannah said:

There is no such thing PRO-ABORTION you ignorant old fool. None of us are running around preaching that abortion is a good thing to do for fun--our stance is that we need to have that CHOICE to have this medical procedure available to us if the circumstances warrant it!

God...there is smoke coming out of my ears right now.

[0+] Author Profile Page Abby said:

I'm sort of curious about what you guys think concerning Sen. Obama's statement saying something like, "Women should be able to make their own decisions after consulting with their family, doctor, and religious advisors." When I hear this I imagine . . . consulting with husband, pastor/minister/whatever (usually male), and of course the doctor standard is still considered male. I know I'm reading a lot into this, but really? Must we always consult our male counter parts/advisors. Anyway, just a bit of critical analysis that I found note-worthy. I would love to know what others think.

[0+] Author Profile Page a.k.a. Ninapendamaishi said:

Abby,

I agree with you.

But I think what Obama is doing here (which may or may not reflect his personal beliefs as well) is pandering to what the majority of Americans want to hear. The largest percent of Americans are for allowing abortions in /most/ circumstances, but not all...
He was also assuading male fears here (the males who are afraid of women "killing" "their" "baby" without their permission). Males are a large portion of undecided voters...

Abby, my take on what he's saying is that no one takes these decisions lightly, and women make them after talking to a variety of people, or just contemplating them by themselves, but that it's not the government's place to stick their nose in.

[0+] Author Profile Page concrete_queen said:

here is the email I just sent to the John McCain's website:
"I have always thought Senator McCain an intelligent man, and although I do not agree with many of his politics, I respected his intellect. However, last night during the debate, I was extremely disappointed in his repeated insistence that pro-choice individuals are PRO-ABORTION. There is no such thing as pro-abortion and as a woman who believes in choice, I am EXTREMELY insulted by his language. John McCain should be ashamed of his apparent ignorance on this subject and would do well to understand what pro-choice means before he opens his mouth on the subject again."

Abby,

This is my take on what Obama was saying. These choices a woman makes are up to her, but she should certainly feel free to talk to those she is close with about her decision because it is a scary thing and it helps to talk about it with those you are close with. I don't think he was saying that the woman has to discuss it with the important males in her life, just the important people in her life. That's why he said discuss it with her family instead of husband. And since this is a medical procedure I think that anyone considering having this done should definitely consult a doctor. I don't care if the doctor is male or female but you need to talk to one.

I can't agree more with what ya'll are saying. I almost threw something at my TV last night. It astounds me that we're now putting women's health in air quotes!

I'm voting for "that one" who understands "women's health!"

[0+] Author Profile Page Abby said:

I completely understand. I just find the subtlety of the social, gendered construction of how we speak and interact with one another very interesting. It's almost like he had to take the edge off of a conversation regarding the power of women so as not to frighten or turn away certain groups of people (as mentioned by Ninapendamaishi). Of course it's a serious issue, and of course medical professionals know a lot more than we do about the procedures, consequences, etc. I agree that he wasn't speaking directly of men, and I certainly think that Sen. Obama had only positive and progressive implications in mind, especially compared to McCain's out-of-touch perspective. I just thought it was interesting. Thanks for the feedback!

[0+] Author Profile Page loyolalex said:

I guess this is an appropriate time for me to say that I'm kind of annoyed with the coverage of the debate . . . Lots of talk about what McCain did and said and how he attacked Obama. But watching it, I kind of felt like Obama did a great job of staying calm and explaining himself, and it seems like there's no talk of that. Any talk of Obama is limited to a few lines -- flat or vapid or academic. Because, you know, when he talks about the issues or how McCain is disingenuously saying he will raise taxes, he's boring.

I know McCain's the better story right now, being behind and all, but it's just kind of annoying.

I almost screamed when he said that. I kept snapping at the television, I think my roommates were a little annoyed. They hate McCain too, but aren't quite as aggressive about it.

[0+] Author Profile Page emmyj said:

Did anyone else notice that McCain only referred to "young women" getting abortions? Does that mean he thinks abortions are all right if you're not young anymore?

[0+] Author Profile Page PamelaVee said:

So we don't all pull our hair out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrXvDXVhqfU

George Carlin- "Pro Life" is ANTI Woman.

[0+] Author Profile Page faithdarwin said:

GRRRAAAHHH! This is definitely something that makes me want to scream at my computer for twenty minutes. But since I don't think anyone likes to read anonymous ranting, I have to point that the whole issue of late term abortion bugs me. Obama's argument that he would get behind an late term abortion ban if there was an exception for the woman's health bugs me because late term abortion ONLY HAPPENS WHEN THE WOMAN'S HEALTH IS AT RISK OR THE FETUS IS NOT VIABLE! It's not as if a woman carries a fetus around for six months and then goes, "Oops, I changed my mind! I better go kill my baby now!" Anti-choicers like to bring up "partial birth abortion" to try and make abortion seem like an extremely cruel practice, and it irritates me to no end when no one brings up the fact that late term abortion is extremely rare and only happens when it's really, really necessary.

[0+] Author Profile Page Zanashay said:

I was screaming at the tv as Mcain was talking about this issue. Not to mention the fact that he had that smug smirk on his face regardless of what Obama was saying. I don't know what I'll do if Obama doesn't win.

[0+] Author Profile Page CrankyCat said:

I can't believe Obama would cater to anti-choice wording of things. Why didn't he use scare quotes for "partial birth abortion"? He knows it's not a real term.

I am so glad I'm not in the US anymore otherwise my family would think I'm nuts the way i blew up when I heard this.

[0+] Author Profile Page sarala said:

Right. Lots of us disagree with Zed about exemptions for the mother's health being pushed too far, because sometimes they are "not even physical." All the scenarios and arguments about emotional issues and non-viable fetuses are really compelling.

But we disagree with Zed in that way people do when they respect each other's, you know, HUMAN RIGHTS.

The problem with what John McCain said was not simply his policy position (which is really bad), but his dismissal of a mother's "health" as a contemptible fraud.

How many women out there have had abortions for medical reasons? TONS!! And I would bet big money that the vast majority of them really wanted that baby. Off the top of my head I can think of 6 women I know. McCain's use of air quotes around "health" of the mother completely dismisses the actual suffering of this incredibly large group of women.

What I'm worried about now is that this story will only get covered in places like Kos and Feministing. That clip where he drips with contempt as he says "health" of the mother--how do we get that clip played over and over on all the major news outlets and covered in the mainstream press? This is something that needs to be brought to the attention of the vast majority of women--those who are not politicized around the issue of abortion, but whose life and well-being was preserved by their access to one!!

[0+] Author Profile Page sarala said:

Right. Lots of us disagree with Zed about exemptions for the mother's health being pushed too far, because sometimes they are "not even physical." All the scenarios and arguments about emotional issues and non-viable fetuses are really compelling.

But we disagree with Zed in that way people do when they respect each other's, you know, HUMAN RIGHTS.

The problem with what John McCain said was not simply his policy position (which is really bad), but his dismissal of a mother's "health" as a contemptible fraud.

How many women out there have had abortions for medical reasons? TONS!! And I would bet big money that the vast majority of them really wanted that baby. Off the top of my head I can think of 6 women I know. McCain's use of air quotes around "health" of the mother completely dismisses the actual suffering of this incredibly large group of women.

What I'm worried about now is that this story will only get covered in places like Kos and Feministing. That clip where he drips with contempt as he says "health" of the mother--how do we get that clip played over and over on all the major news outlets and covered in the mainstream press? This is something that needs to be brought to the attention of the vast majority of women--those who are not politicized around the issue of abortion, but whose life and well-being was preserved by their access to one!!

[0+] Author Profile Page sarala said:

sorry for the double post. my computer was acting weird.

[0+] Author Profile Page Lilly said:

Notice how the line (for women AND men) went WAY down once McCain started speaking.

He's such an ass-hat!

[0+] Author Profile Page Feather said:

Does anyone know if there is website somewhere archiving women's experiences of late-term abortion? Sometimes I feel like the general opinion outside feminist spaces is that late-term abortion = when a (selfish!) woman decides to abort a week before the baby's due because the birth clashes with her favourite TV show.

[0+] Author Profile Page MzBitca said:

Feather,
Unfortunately this is what my crazy right wing co-worker thinks. He talked about women who have late-term abortions because they have a (fake swoon) headache. I told him I highly doubt that and then he tried to do the whole talk about aborted fetuses to gross me out.

him: There's this bin of dead babies
me: fetuses
him: and the babies have fingernails
me: fetusese
him: and they're in a jar
me: I know what abortion is, I know there are aborted fetuses I don't care what type of container they are placed in.
him: a bin full of dead babies
me: fetuses

[0+] Author Profile Page Brianna G said:

shoegirl, he did say that health reasons are enough of a reason to ban late-term abortions. I think he's just saying that he acknowledges that according to SCOTUS, the states might have some reason to protect a fetus that's pretty close to being born if the mother's not in danger carrying it. I think most people agree that if you're that far along and there's no health reason to abort, you should simply continue the pregnancy. Probably safer for the mother in some cases, too; late term abortions are rough on women's bodies.

Also, I assume he just didn't mention fetal deformities because it's too controversial. SCOTUS has declared that to be a reason a woman should be able to get an abortion even late-term and I am sure he wouldn't ban that.

Abby: I think he's saying that THOSE are the people who a woman should feel like she might involve, not a lawmaker. Most women would involve family (either a trusted family member or, if applicable, their spouse); if they are religious they would consult a religious leader, and of course their doctor who will actually perform the abortion. it also shows that he doesn't beleive women do it on a whim, ever, which McCain seems to.

faithdarwin: Banning late-term abortion except in the case of fetal or maternal health complications affects no one except the people who feel better because they know that something that never happens now can't happen. It's pandering, effective pandering, and we might as well allow them to do it since we aren't actually affected by it.

I know it comes up, very very rarely, that a usually young, often mentally disabled (mentally ill or mentally retarded) woman doesn't realize she's pregnant, or tries to hide it, and it comes up when she's late term and she goes to try to get an abortion. Of course, most doctors would then tell her no unless there's another reason, but I don't have a problem if that's backed up with a law supporting the doctor, if people feel better and stop using "partial birth abortions" to fight ALL abortions. The what, three? cases a year that would be affected would just validate what that doctor would do anyway.

[0+] Author Profile Page Jud said:

I recall him saying something like "it's just a bad procedure" at one point. At what point did he upgrade from Sen. McAsshole to Dr. McAsshole?

I'm sorry, but John McCain isn't a doctor, how the fuck does he get a right to decide jackshit about anyone's medical conditions? Hey asshole, there are situations where continuing a pregnancy can take out a woman's eyes, kidneys, or other important organs. There are also situations where fetuses are unfortunately discovered, late in the game, not to even be viable. What kind of sadistic fuck would force a woman to continue a pregnancy just long enough for the fetus to develop the ability to feel pain, be born, and die? How the fuck is that better than abortion for anyone involved?

And why the fuck was he implying all women who get abortions are young? Sorry, there's a tragically high number of non-teenagers who, for whatever reason, find themselves pregnant and unable to really provide, financially or emotionally, for a child. Don't just assume everyone in a different situation than you are is an ignorant child.

And what the hell was with the non-prevention talk? I heard Obama talking about teaching the sacredness of sexuality and about support for pregnant women, but I didn't hear "adequate sexual education as well as improving contraceptive access" so loud as the "omg, no sex without babies" message.

How about a "children deserve to be wanted, loved and well cared for, so here's what we do to insure that" angle?

[0+] Author Profile Page Emolee said:

I, too, was outraged at the air quotes. Although I see McCain's point that a health exception could be abused (I don't AGREE with his point though!), he didn't even make this point clearly. He simply made it seem as if women's health was just a joke or at the very least, unimportant.

Of course McCain does seem to think healthcare in general is unimportant. His healthcare plan is the WORST I have ever heardof- it helps no one. I also recall McCain making a statement in the primaries about the fact that we wouldn't need so much healthcare if people would just walk 30 minutes a day. With disabled and truly sick family members, this made me furious.

I really liked the way Obama brought the issue back to sex education. However, is it just me or did he stress abstinence and NOT MENTION BIRTH CONTROL? Please correct me if I am wrong.

[0+] Author Profile Page aleks said:

Ok, ok. I'm furious about the McCain women's health airquotes. But why aren't you equally furious about Obama's explicit support for a BAN on late term abortion?! I've been fuming about this all morning. We now have proof that 3rd term abortions are at risk under the next president, no matter who HE is.
Posted by shoegirl Author Profile Page | October 16, 2008 2:32 PM

Relax, it's a meaningless ban. The woman's health exemption covers 100% of cases. In the case of partial birth abortion, it's even genuinely true that the procedure would never be done without a clear and present danger to the woman.

Re: late term abortions, doesn't Roe v. Wade already say that they are illegal except in cases where they threaten the health and life of the woman? Does anyone know?

[0+] Author Profile Page Emolee said:

My understanding...

Roe v. Wade held that there is a constitutional right to an abortion, for any reason, up until the point at which the fetus becomes ‘viable.’ This did not outlaw late term abortions, but allowed state law to outlaw them if the state so chose.

The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003 banned all "partial birth abortions." Gonzales v. Carhart (SCOTUS) upheld this act as constitutional.

[0+] Author Profile Page Flippy said:

Well, with the way health care in general is run in this country, I'm not surprised health comes up in air quotes more often.

(I needed a drink, too)

Just to be clear here, since I see a few people assuming that I'm part of the camp I'm explaining, I am not one of the people that believe that emotional trauma isn't a good enough reason to support an abortion. I'm actually out in the other extreme -- I don't believe a fetus has any rights whatsoever until it is no longer dependent on a host body. The 'kernel of truth' that I referred to was a reference to how trivial it is to use emotional trauma as an excuse whether or not it exists.

For a crowd that does believe that a fetus, particularly a third-trimester fetus, has rights that have to be weighed against the rights of the woman carrying it (and this is a very widespread worldview even among the moderate right), however, you are never going to win an argument that short-term emotional trauma trumps a right to exist. I honestly wouldn't even try to argue the point with them, because the negative reaction is likely to taint the response to the better arguments as well.

Zed, where do you have evidence that doctors lie and abuse health provisions? What person with medical qualifications has decided which records were falsified and what qualifications did that person use to determine this?

I this is a frequently quoted assumption with little evidence to back it up. I think defending McCain's remark is wrong. If the provision is not there, women's health would not be protected, and throwing women's lives and well being away in the name of some unproven fraud is wrong.

Mental disorders can be severe. Emotional trauma can be severe. No one makes a decision to get a termination later in pregnancy easily, and there are not doctors clambering to do the procedure casually.

Hilary,

Again, I'm not defending the remark or the intent. I devoted an entire paragraph to explaining why it's still wrong, even given the context I was explaining.

That said, you asked for evidence that doctors lie and abuse health provisions, and this *really* surprised me, especially given that doctors lying and abusing health provisions when they want to *avoid* providing women with medical care or have other woman-hostile agendas is a recurring theme on this blog. Googling "doctor falsified records" alone came back with 154,000 hits. If I picked other search terms for specific other kinds of abuse, I'd find even more.

Doctors are people, and they are subject to human frailties. I suspect there are a number of other commentors here that would be very happy to find out that their doctors supported women's rights enough to provide them wil an abortion or other health care even under restrictive laws that made the decision questionable. Salon reported on a sting catching Planned Parenthood doing just that, for instance, in a situation that would be much harder to hide than a lower severity of emotional distress than was documented.

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