don't forget that if we dare to call people on misogynistic bullshit we must hate ourselves.

Awesome post! Funny coincidence, today seems to be "feminist day" on my favorite horse-related forum, and we've got two threads about feminism right now.

What is feminism? (helping someone write a paper):
http://fhotd64476.yuku.com/topic/14946

Gender norms for women:
http://fhotd64476.yuku.com/topic/14951

Don't forget the counterpart to #4 -- we get pregnant just to enjoy man-free single parenthood and buy ourselves jewelry with the child support

Ok, if this calendar gets made I'm SO buying one.

On 8:

I'm taking a feminism class right now, after two blessed years free from humanities (nothing wrong with my God-given right to love science and feel physical pain while writing essays). For all my respect for feminism (it turns out I look like what a feminist looks like), the issue is that it's too big an issue.

On many levels, it's the study of how views on gender affect society. They affect it everywhere and all the time! That makes me love the discussions, since I can rail on and on, but I hate the essays, because I'm a scientist, darnit, and I want to write about something better-defined.

So for a topic that covers every social interaction in history, every other thought each human ever had, and is trying to find a logical solution for pervasive issues throughout these, and then find a way to get to that solution for all the different societies on the planet...

...well, those of you who can stand that stuff, you do an awesome job changing the world by holding down the clutch for its paradigm shift. Sorry I don't know how stick-shift works. Pass the petri dish.

"4. We get knocked up for fun just to have abortions on-demand."

Don't forget about the teen cults that revolve around having unprotected sex and then taking plan B! Teenagers love that stuff.

Humorless! You forgot humorless! And shrill!

Holy crap, those would be the best calendars! :D I'd buy at least 10 of them!

5. We're hairy, angry man-haters.

Crap... I hate myself! :/

oh! and we love "playing the victim"!

and we take "jokes" about rape and domestic violence way too seriously!!!!

We believe the men are inferior to women...

Feminists are all women...

All women are feminists...

Feminists do not like children...(women should work instead of having children)

Feminists are angry...just to be angry...

I've always been particularly amused by how often the stereotypes are contradictory to the point of being mutually exclusive. Obviously different people may hold different versions of the stereotypes to be true, but I've heard the contradictory "hates sex/only cares about sex" crap from the same people, and I could probably think of plenty of other examples too.

Are other stereotypes like that? It seems like most of the ones having to do with race are more consistent. Not that that makes it any less "wrong" and maybe it's not the case anyway, but it's got me thinking...

We don't know how to have fun! Have no life! Just sit home on Friday nights eating ice cream and watching Sex and the City DVD's!

Another contradiction:

5. We're hairy, angry man-haters.

... but that doesn't stop us from wanting to BE men.

Oh oh oh I forgot

Pro-choice means pro-abortion...ya know not pro- the woman should get to decide to have a child and keep it or to have a child and give it up for adoption or to have an abortion...

Don't forget the Birkenstocks.

I'll make you a sammie,
but, it will cost you 15 dollars.

I'll make you a sammie,
but, it will cost you 15 dollars.

I just finished teaching One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest to my high school juniors. I hadn't read the book myself in many years and was surprised at the problematic way women were portrayed in the book (virgin/whore dichotomy all the way). Most of all, I was shocked at the way many of my students discussed characters like Nurse Ratched: "She's never been married, so maybe that's why she's so bitter" or "She just wants to rule over men" or "I bet she has a thing for McMurphy." I finally got sick of it and wrote the words "Raging Feminist Bitch" on the white board (to many gasps of surprise and delight, I might add) and had my students list up every association they have to that phrase. What they came up is more or less this exact top 10 list, power suits, frigid sluts, and all. By the end of our discussion, we were able to problematize Nurse Ratched's characterization and speculate on why the author chose to represent her character in that way.

Our "great literature" buys into these stereotypes and it scares me, retrospectively terrifies me, that had we not had the Raging Feminist Bitch conversation, my students may have continued to believe that women in charge MUST be either frigid or in need of a good bone -- or else, why would they want to be in charge?

This is great fun.

These are extensions of ones already mentioned, but the comments that I most hear muttered under someone's breath are:

1. "You only have a problem with Girls Gone Wild/vulgar advertising/rape jokes/half naked women on television because you're not getting any."
2. "You've just been hurt by one man so you hate the rest of them."
3. "You've been brainwashed by feminist propaganda."

Notice that all of these things revolve around my reaction to other people, as opposed to owning my own thoughts and feelings.

11. We are always, unceasingly, eternally menstruating.

Or PMS-ing

(Slightly less obvious way to call us crazy bitches)

Secretinsidegirl,

What a valuable and trenchant analysis. I would LOVE to sit down and have a convo with you and some of your canon-exalting colleagues about the Western literary canon. The intense misogyny allowed in major novels boggles my mind when I compare it to the protests of racism in HUCKLEBERRY FINN, the bannings, etc.( And I say that as a "woman of color", by the way, not as an Oppression Olympics-type jab.)

secretinsidegirl- my english teacher (a man) taught us that one flew over the cuckoo's nest was commentary on how society views women (as either whores or ball cutters, nurse rachett or candy) rather than how ken kesey views women. not all literature reveals the author's worldview exactly literally. sometimes authors (gasp!) have meaning behind their text.

secretinsidegirl- my english teacher (a man) taught us that one flew over the cuckoo's nest was commentary on how society views women (as either whores or ball cutters, nurse rachett or candy) rather than how ken kesey views women. not all literature reveals the author's worldview exactly literally. sometimes authors (gasp!) have meaning behind their text.

wait! i thought we were all ugly and fat, too!

zardoz covered the birkenstocks. don't forget the flannel.

uhh... right! silly stereotypes! ha.. ha!
(hiding my hairy armpits and shoving the cats under the futon...)

this entry is so timely: i told my partner yesterday that i was going to be a feminist stereotype for halloween. now i have so many fantastic ideas!

wow, i just reread that and i'm really sorry if it sounded sarcastic. that's not how i meant it. but it also doesn't seem like that interpretation of one flew over the cuckoo's nest lines up with the rest of the book. kesey shows a lot of support for other repressed groups, ie gays, native americans, even just the people in the ward in general, being there because they didn't fit into society's plan. the idea that he would present women as completely 2-dimensional simply because that's how he sees them doesn't make sense with the rest of the text.

"Shrill Harpy!"

I am so "reclaiming," shrill harpy for myself.

In defense of stereotypes:

1. We're frigid and hate sex.
2. We're sluts.

The only sexual stereotype that people seem to actually believe, is that if you're a feminist, it's not okay to get slapped around and called names during sex. The idea that women can be politically active and sexually submissive doesn't get enough air time.

3. We're lonely "cat ladies" who can't get a man. Therefore, we are bitter.

I never met a feminist who didn't like cats, and I never met a feminist who wasn't bitter. If you were oppressed for almost all of recorded history, you'd be bitter too.

4. We get knocked up for fun just to have abortions on-demand.

This stereotype is true, just backwards, most serial aborters are the super-religious.

5. We're hairy, angry man-haters.

Actually, and possibly by way of reaction, most feminists seem to have better hygiene.

BONUS SEXISM: google "hygiene"

6. We're just desperate for male attention.

In academia, that's absolutely true, because feminist research gets tossed into the obviously less important "women's studies."

7. We want to dismantle the patriarchy so we can establish a matriarchy! Muhahaha.

Actually, I think most men would support this if it were true; they already give women "power" over child-rearing and food preparation, as well as the "freedom" to pull in a second income. The issue of the modern relationship isn't women having enough "power," it's women having a disproportionate amount of responsibility (i.e. with great power comes lower life expectancy).

8. We are intellectually unserious.

Actually, and definitely by way of reaction, women in academia tend to be overly serious and conscientious of how "professional" they're acting.

9. We are the sanctimonious women's studies set, with our heads up our academic asses.

Actually, this stereotype is a carryover from gender studies, and that field is an absolute train-wreck, regardless of the genders involved. Somebody needs to announce that jargon doesn't make something more scientific, and usually has the opposite effect.

10. We are loud-mouthed bitches who won't STFU and make you a sammich.

Actually, the fact that you even listed this throws significant doubt on your sammich-makin' expertise.

Marcus...I hate cats, and I'm feminist...I'm not bitter, but I do believe that women have been oppressed for most of history, but I have hope for the future. I cannot change the past, but I can change the future...I'm angry when I see what has been done to ALL oppressed peoples...I get upset and angry when I see how it still affects peoples...but bitter...I do not consider myself bitter at all...angry sometimes, but not bitter...and I hate hate hate cats...

not only will i not make the sammich, i won't do his laundry, either.

Corollary to the man-hating:
We're all lesbians, and want to artificially inseminate ourselves so we can raise an army of little lesbian girls (and abort all boys, of course).

I think one that's been bothering me is that we are "angry." And yeah, we are. But people say this as an insult, because I guess women aren't supposed to be angry.
I'm doing a PhD in women's history and recently in a class a girl dismissed a feminist historian's article (about the treatment of the fall in fertility in the nineteenth century by historians as showing women as just baby-making machines) by saying "Well there is nothing substantive here. This is just an angry rant." I was fuming. And I wanted to start an angry rant. So I addressed it in a calm but logical way. Because not only was this feminist historian right, but how many feminist historians have been dismissed this way? Including myself. Saying someone is "ranting" or "angry" is not a criticism of their arguments.

Both bitterness and true hatred of most men comes with experience -- it's like the aging of a fine wine. Old age is much better without some old man constantly making demands.

Cats are far better companions -- so are good books, and another old woman.

Now, that's unfair. My wife is a staunch feminist, but she insists on cooking all the food in the house. Very sexist--apparently she feels I can't cook worth a damn.

Damn kids think so too...

Amit Joshi, I'm in the same situation. I've dated girls who won't let me cook certain things, because it sucks. Apparently, the time to practice is not when she's over.

Sandwiches, though, I can generally pull off.

Hey, don't forget the saggy breasts. 'Cause y'all burnt your bras back in '69, remember?

humorless shrews! :p

Notice how many of these stereotype contridict each other.

Tiffany, I hear you. I made a video blog about rape victim blaming and the first comment said "You have been brainwashed by hateful feminist idealogy." Oh yeah, I don't think rape victims should be blamed for their attacks so I must hate all men. Aren't I terrible?

1. We're frigid and hate sex.

2. We're sluts.

Ah yes, my favorite anti-feminist contradiction. The conversation usually goes a little something like this:

Internet Douchebag: You're just a feminist because you're ugly and you can't get a man.

Me: What? I get laid all the time.

Internet Douchebag: Oh, so you're a slut, just like all the other feminists.

Me: *head explodes*

Not only do they rely on stereotypes to judge us, they just pick separate and contradictory stereotypes to fit the situation. How intellectually lazy do you have to be?

Ok, first off, thanks to this site an all it's members, I don't feel alone or like I'm nuts, so thank you ALL.

1. We're frigid and hate sex.
Um, actually I REALLY like sex.
2. We're sluts.
No, we respect ourselves but are secure in being sexual.

3. We're lonely "cat ladies" who can't get a man. Therefore, we are bitter.
What? really...
4. We get knocked up for fun just to have abortions on-demand.
Nope..actually I avoid being "knocked up" at all costs, going as far as getting a copper IUD

5. We're hairy, angry man-haters.
Shaven, because I like it, thank you very much :)
6. We're just desperate for male attention.
no, I avoid that as well

7. We want to dismantle the patriarchy so we can establish a matriarchy! Muhahaha.
Really, I don't see that happening ever
8. We are intellectually unserious.
You have to be kidding...ah, CJ student, I study a "male" subject, If I'm intellectually unserious, so are men (93% men dominated field)

9. We are the sanctimonious women's studies set, with our heads up our academic asses.
Ah..grade k-12, I never heard of American women for the US. Its a shame that we have to get to college to see the whole picture..

10. We are loud-mouthed bitches who won't STFU and make you a sammich.
Oh no, I'll make a sammich, but you'll listen to my ass the whole time..oh yes, I'll make that sammich REAL SLOW, and look for eye contact the whole time: eat it, then eat it!

Hey,

I signed up for an account just for this. I don't shave my armpits. It sucks the hate coming my way from other feminists on this issue. Hygeine?? Wow. It's funny how people hide their discomfort with a woman looking 'unfeminine' under the guise of concern over hygeine. Really, I'm pretty sure that none of you is too concerned with a male partner's 'hygeine' because he doesn't shave under his arms. This just pure sucks. You may be a lipstick feminist, and I don't spend my time giving you a hard time over that, even though I think it sucks.

A lot of feminists choose not to shave their arms or legs, or to wear a bra, and this is a feminist issue for them, myself included. I refuse to remove my bodily hair in an imitation of a pre-pubescent girl. In fact, this makes me feel a little queasy. So yeah, a lot of feminists refuse to conform physically to the frankly quite oppressive idea of what a 'girl' should look like. This is actually quite hard. We get abuse almost daily from the general population (often masked as 'concern', as seen here- "Gee honey, maybe you should wear a bra, I'm concerned that your breasts might sag and you'll have back problems"). We don't need this abuse from other feminists as well. If you want to be a make-up wearing, high heel wearing, dieting feminist, I can't stop you, but don't pour scorn on feminists who are trying to challenge notions of what-feminine-women-should-look-like, and already have to put up with abuse for this.

Also, you know what? A lot of feminists are lesbians too. And this post sucks on this issue. I am sick to my eyeballs of hearing white middle class hetronormative mainstream feminists saying "it's not like we're lesbiens". Have some f*cking solidarity. Stop denying feminists on the fringe from your clique because you think it makes you less socially acceptable to be associated with them. This stinks.

Oh, and we are constantly looking for reasons to criticize men and accuse them of sexism!

Ama, there was ONE post equating shaved armpits with hygiene. One is not a trend. And NO ONE here denigrated lesbians, or said anything along the lines of 'it's not like we're lesbians.'

Like JPlum said, there was ONE comment equating shaving with hygiene, and it was written by a man (I couldn't see whether he self-identified as a feminist or not by his post). As to the specific stereotypes listed in the post, the two sexually based ones ("frigid" and "sluts") do not in any way define the sexuality of the person involved. There were absolutely NO comments in this thread stating that feminists must wear make-up, diet, and wear high heels. I'm sorry to be so harsh on this, but frankly you've pulled that out of your ass where this particular thread is concerned.

Yes, the issue of hair removal, clothing and makeup is one which feminists debate over a great deal. And there are accusations flying in BOTH directions. Feminists who shave are told they aren't "good enough" or "aren't real feminists." So-called "pro-sex" feminists are called colluders. I think all of us remember the great blow job debate that overtook most feminists blogs a few years ago.

Excellent post. Where can I put my name down for that calendar?

I'm 37, single, childless and I live alone - therefore:
- I must have "issues" from past relationships that make me afraid to be with a man again
- There must be something wrong with me that I can't get a man to marry me
- I will regret waiting too long to have a child or, I am being selfish by considering single parenthood
- I must get lonely/bored/scared living on my own
- Other women's men probably aren't safe around me (I'm at that age where I'm getting desperate you know)
- I'm bitter and angry and what man wants that?
- I'm selfish for not being in a relationship/marriage
- I'm fooling myself into thinking I don't need anyone
- I think I'm happy but I'm really not
- If I had a man I wouldn't go on about feminist issues
- I have no sense of humour because I rarely find sexist "humour" funny
- I can't see why there is no problem with shoving a near-naked woman into every advert, regardless of the product being advertised
- I like (no, adore) cats so, well, obviously that makes me a somewhat desperate, bitter, lonely spinster who's chances of snagging a good man are slowly but surely trickling away

Ama-
If you were referring to my post, I'm sorry if I made it sound like I was anti-lesbian. I'm not. I merely resent the assumption that the only reason we care about other women is we're sexually attracted to them.

Ama - As a "lipstick feminist" I have the utmost respect for women who can challenge the norms in the ways that you describe. Honestly, I struggle every day with my feminist identity because I DON'T always challenge them in the same way you do. I choose writing as my primary means and for me it works.

You're right, we should have some f**king solidarity. It makes me sad when I see feminists fighting with each other when they could be putting that energy to good use, that being said a debate is a debate and it takes a broad range of individuals to keep that debate alive and working.

I am hesitant to use this word but the "type" of feminist that you are gets the short end of the stick a lot of the time, and I just wanted to say again that I respect you and all of the other women out there who give these gender stereotypes a strong kick in the ass! We're all fighting for the same thing: For women to freely be who they are and have what they need without negative consequences based on their choices. I think we can all at least agree on that fundamental philosophy.

I am a "lipstick" woman partnered with a man and I stand in solidarity with you, Ama. I despise hearing women (NOT on this site) say "Gawd, I'm all for women's rights, but I'm no lezzie!" I really wish I could reach out with a slap across the face, but I try to avoid violence and to give everyone a space to "share" freely.

By the way, I don't shave at all--not my underarms, not my legs, not my pubic area (euphemistically termed the "bikini line"). I do wear lipstick, makeup, and perfume, though. This might make the anti-feminists' heads explode...let's see.

First of all- whew! I think I need to calm down and realise that people in the feminist community probably *aren't* out to get me!

Thanks for your support Jenn and Okra, it means a lot. It's nice to have a space where you don't feel like you constantly have to justify yourself and explain why you have underarm hair, etc. I would hate it if a feminist forum didn't provide that space, and instead turned its back on its sisters on the fringe.

And that girl, thank you for your comment, I understand what you were getting at.

So yeah, my points still stand, but sorry for getting so mad.

Ama:

I refuse to remove my bodily hair in an imitation of a pre-pubescent girl. In fact, this makes me feel a little queasy.

Oh, I fucking hate this comparison. I occasionally shave bare "down there" because it's different and fun and feels COMPLETELY different -- I find it very sensual, for several reasons (the fact that it makes EVERYTHING very visible can be VERY hawt, and it makes oral sex amaaaazing, and I'm not generally into oral sex). I am NOT a pre-pubescent girl, nor do I want to be one, nor are my partners (usually male, though not always) pedophiles.

This comparison is offensive and disgusting.

If you don't shave, awesome! I don't always shave (I haven't in months), because it's not necessary for me or my partners (I've found most men honestly don't care one way or another). Sometimes I "trim" but even then, I don't always (and haven't in weeks).

It's a PERSONAL decision that women make for a myriad of PERSONAL reasons, and I find it oh so offensive when people start comparing me to a fucking pre-pubescent girl. I AM A WOMAN, shaved or not.

Period.

God, this pisses me off. Am I the only one who hates that comparison so much?

Can I nominate secretinsidegirl for great moments in teaching. Way to take an uniformed class discussion rife with stereotypes and raise it to an actual discussion of the character and the wider problem

A word on the cat thing, it occurs to me that this is a continuation of the witch trials. Like if a woman owns a cat then it must be her familiar, that she's sending it out to do her devil inspired meddling women's work. How is this stereotype still around?! Oh, wait, the madonna/whore thing is from the dawn of time, I forgot

Interesting debate on the unshaved vs. lipstick feminism thing. Can we all just agree that we don't think as a group, That the one common goal or "fucking solidarity" as Ama said is equalizing the genders and empowering women and that everything else with regards to shaving and fashion etc. is a personal choice?

marilove - I think Jessica makes a good point in her book about understanding the roots of what we do and the historical meanings rooted in sexism that affect the things that even feminists do to this day. I don't think that Ama was trying to imply that all women are submitting to a prepubescent fantasy by shaving, she was making the point that many are quick to jump and say that they don't fit into the non-shaving category and relegate it to the category of "untrue stereotypes about feminists" and that marginalizes those who belong to that belief system.

Much like stilettos are tied to foot binding, shaving IS linked to infantilizing women, however that does not mean that you or your partners are always aware of this, nor is it yours or their reasons for enjoying being shaved. If you want to shave go for it (I do, I always have), if you don't that's great too.

As long as you make that decision for yourself and no one else, no one has the right to judge you on that issue, feminist or not.

"That the one common goal or "fucking solidarity" as Ama said is equalizing the genders and empowering women and that everything else with regards to shaving and fashion etc. is a personal choice?"

This.

And please stop comparing me to a child or my partners to pedophiles just because I, as a WOMAN, choose to shave bare. I mean, seriously. How offensive can you get?

"I don't think that Ama was trying to imply that all women are submitting to a prepubescent fantasy by shaving, she was making the point that many are quick to jump and say that they don't fit into the non-shaving category and relegate it to the category of "untrue stereotypes about feminists" and that marginalizes those who belong to that belief system."

Um, no. And I quote: "I refuse to remove my bodily hair in an imitation of a pre-pubescent girl."

Word-for-word, she was comparing shaving bare to being an "imitation of a pre-pubescent girl" and therefore implying that I look like a pre-pubescent girl, and therefore implying further that my partners are pedophiles for enjoying when I shave.

Sorry, but that's OFFENSIVE, period. And people do it ALL THE TIME -- not just feminists. It's getting tired. Period.

And no, we aren't all about to sit around a camp fire and sing Kumbya (or however you spell it) while talking about our feelings, but we do need some solidarity within feminism, otherwise what the hell are we fighting for?

"shaving IS linked to infantilizing women"

And I don't think that's true, not in all cases. Many women shave because it makes them feel good, and not because it infantilizing them. Linking ALL shaving to "infantilizing of women" is offensive.

I was speaking historically.

So I've just started to shave every 3 months instead of every month. Yay! I also just started wearing only mascara to my hostessing job and none to my receptionist job. (Let me tell you the fun little jewels of blatant sexism I get at both those jobs..) I agree that we are all fighting for women to be who they want to be. However I see so many of the women I work with worrying about make up and there looks and it makes me sad for them. I think that might be were the angst against "lipstick" feminist comes in. (Not to imply pitty of course.) Put that we want you to be as free from sexism as possible and we have defined that as not wearing lipstick etc. It's sad when that sentiment comes out in anger cuz rock on solidarity! However I know that at least for me it's because I care about how other women are defined by society and (ok, doing some defining here myself) and want them to be who they are. Some times we forget that we are all products of our upbringing and surroundings (ie. I was voted the "epitome of fashion" in my HS yearbook.) I think the problem falls on validation in a group of people. Like who has had it harder or who has done more work for the cause. We're still humans trying to one up each other and that's almost more sad than a woman primping in the mirror just to go out with her girlfriends.

Props to Ama for pointing out the devide and accepting the other comments too!~

To go along with #5, aren't all feminists lesbians? It's because they all hate men and/or no man would find them attractive right?

It isn't? Color me shocked.

And by the way, like I said I shave too, for the same reasons you do, I was just making the point that Ama is entitled to her viewpoint about shaving because of the roots that is has.

For example: Just because slavery (theoretically) is abolished, doesn't mean that racism isn't alive and well. So perhaps just because we don't say that we shave because we want to look younger or whatever doesn't mean that there isn't a history there that needs to be examined before one can make personal choices about their bodies, fashion etc.

Those of us who don't fit the hairy stereotype are free to point that out, just as those DO fit the sterotype can have a giggle over living up to expectations, in the same feminist cat-fanciers do. The only people here who I've seen being dismissive of others' choices are the 'shaving is bad and unfeminist' ones.

I suspect that the non-shavers have encountered so-called feminists who have derided them in the past, but that ain't happening here. So, take your divisive and dismissive arguments to those who have actually said the things you're angry about, and stop trying to pick fights with the people who aren't actually doing what you're (justifyably) angry about.

"and stop trying to pick fights with the people who aren't actually doing what you're (justifyably) angry about."

Not sure if you're talking about me, but I was getting angry at Ama, who DID compare me to a child because I shave.

Anyway, I don't wear makeup, to comment on doppleganger's comments. Well, I do on occasion, but not often ... not even to MY receptionist/admin job. No one seems to notice or care (though if I were to one day show up to work in makeup, they'd probably comment). I think some of it has to do with the fact that I live in Arizona, though, where we are all a bit more ... casual when it comes to dress.

To the admin...

This is a great debate and I think it deserves its own post!

No, marilove, I wasn't talking about you-I was talking about the only on this thread who were getting all judgey and self-righteous, and offended at things no one here was saying. You were pissed at something Ama actually said.

No, marilove, I wasn't talking about you-I was talking about the people on this thread who were getting all judgey and self-righteous, and offended at things no one here was saying. You were pissed at something Ama actually said.

on the flipside, you CANT be a feminist if you:

1)are married, 2) have kids, 3) stay at home with said kids

marilove:

Just an FYI, you personal decisions DO NOT happen in a vacuum; your decisions (just as mine) are affected by society and, until we live in a truly egalitarian society, your decisions have an impact on other women.

So, stop getting so damned offended when someone calls out a patriarchal concept for what it is, because until NO women feel pressured or forced to “choose” the patriarchal standard, it is incredibly important that we call them out for what they are. So, you can shave or not, but that has nothing to do with the fact that our society values youth in women and an extension of that is pressure on women (whether you feel this pressure or not, OTHER women do) to shave the body hair that naturally comes with aging in order to appear more youthful.

Now, back OT:

wait! i thought we were all ugly and fat, too!

Duh, Sunshine, we are! And, therefore, we are jealous of other women because they are “hot.”

That reminds me…a suggestion for the month of January (“Two Women Making Out”):

They need to be “hot” women and there should be lots of men around cheering them on (‘cuz that’s the only reason two women would ever kiss, right, to please straight men?)

"your decisions have an impact on other women."

Oh, please. My personal decision to shave my crtoch has nothing to do with other women, nor does it affect other women. It affects only me.

It does affect other women when you publicly discuss your choices, and BOTH points of view are valid.

Have we forgotten that the personal is political?

marilove:

Until we live in an egalitarian society, they most certainly do. This is crucial to understand if we are ever going to get to that place where ALL women (not just you) has the freedom to make choices about their bodies. How do you propose we get there if we just assume that every woman has the same freedoms we do? How do we get there if we cannot ask people to examine (note I said examine) the reasons behind their decisions and how those decisions may affect others without them being "offended"?

I have to agree with the side that says women's actions (especially when talking about them on a public forum, complete with discussion of reasons, benefits, etc) DO affect other women. But I understand marilove's resistance to this idea... I, too, shave. I happen to believe societal expectations and ideals have influenced this decision. So, in resistance to this, logically, I should stop, and yet I continue to do it.. There ends up being a discord between belief and behavior. Psychologically, when this happens, people will often try to justify their behavior by changing their beliefs (i.e. I would justify shaving influenced by societal expectations by saying I believe I made the choice completely on my own...) I think it's called cognitive dissonance?

Sometimes I fear I'm becoming a walking punchline as I lean more toward socialism and paganism... If I could just become a lesbian, I'd be set.

I happen to believe societal expectations and ideals have influenced this decision. So, in resistance to this, logically, I should stop, and yet I continue to do it.. There ends up being a discord between belief and behavior.

You are probably right, here.

However, I believe the key is to examine why you make the choices you do, realize that not every woman has the luxury of making those choice for themselves, understand that your choices may impact other women, and discuss it in that regard.

I don't think it's helpful to advancing the rights of women to pretend that all of one's personal choices happens in one's own little bubble with no influence from or affect upon society. Self-examination is a good thing, but it's not easy - you apparently struggle with it, I know I do. But, as hard as it is, I truly believe that if everyone did it, it would go a looooong way in reducing the way our society judges people as groups instead of as individuals.

where did you find these. they controdict so many times (hates sex but is a slut at the same time). academically unserious, please some of the most intelligent women that i have ever known are self identified feminist. on the flip side some of the dumbest women that i have ever known say that they are not feminist.

I've stopped shaving for the most part because I used to get lots of ingrown hairs and itchy red bumps under my arms and on my pubic area. YET I recognize that I don't wear sleeveless shirts around my hipster fashion conscious friends, but I am more relaxed around the hippie activists that I work with, male and female in both scenarios. And I can't even begin to imagine what my choices will be come summer time.

Side note: Ask a guy to shave his balls for you then take a picture of his face in reaction to the suggestion: priceless.

I agree with Jenn and ShelbyWoo. To put it a little more bluntly, just because you choose to shave your legs and armpits, or wear red lipstick on your mouth or rouge on your cheeks, or walk in high heels, because you "just think it looks nice", or "just like the way it makes me feel", does not give you the right to be hoitily offended when someone points out the historical (patriarchal) roots and meanings of these acts as cultural practices. At least, not if you want to be considered a person with an intelligent, well thought-through and critically-minded awareness of your own culture and its history.

I personally like the feel of shaven armpits (although I don't do it to my own). I do not believe that I like it because of some sub-conscious desire to be like a prepubescent girl, and if someone tried to insist that this was so, I would be annoyed at their simple-mindedness. But I also know that personal preferences and opinions like this are influenced, in some ways created, by the culture in which these ideas exist. Just like Shelby said, nothing that a person does exists in a vaccuum; every action, opinion, and desire works in reference to the person's culture. I would never say that my liking of shaven armpits is simply MY PERSONAL preference or choice to the extent that Marilove is saying this about her pubes; I know that, had I grown up in a society that praised hairiness as beautiful, my ideas of beauty would probably be in accordance with that.

In fact Marilove, I'm surprised you consider yourself a feminist (I only assume you do), given that your awareness of social forces seems to be so simplistic - I would have thought that feminist beliefs come after, and ONLY after, one becomes critically engaged with this idea.

I don't want to attack or single out marilove, as I feel she has a good point about the fact that her own personal desires shouldn't be second guessed.

But I also really appreciate the comments by Rosie, ShelbyWoo, Jenn and Ama. I stopped shaving about 20 years ago because I just couldn't ignore the fact that there was a cultural expectation for women to shave and not for men. Why should women have to change their bodies but men not have to change? And why hair in particular? At that time it was just armpits and legs, shaving privates was still pretty underground.

In my opinion, its not what marilove as a person chooses to do with her body, its what society expects of women in general that we are talking about here. The difference in not only in pressure or expectation, it is in symbolism. Its part of a fantasy in our society of women as weaker, less demanding, more innocent, without agency, there for the pleasure of men, etc.

Being super-skinny makes your body look adolescent or weak, tons of makeup makes you look younger, super short skirts or heels make you look more vulnerable. I'm not saying that no one should ever be thin or dressed up. But I think that a societal pressure to ONLY look that way has meaning. Shaving - I'll come right out and say it, especially shaving vaginas - is part of that same trend to look younger, vulnerable, and "perfect". I'd compare it to airbrushing a magazine photo in Playboy. Its a societal expectation that women's bodies must be perfect in an unattainble way.

What we are arguing about here is agency. Some women just don't feel that their choices about body hair have those associations. Its not our place to say they aren't feminist enough because they don't agree with our analysis. Some women maybe like a discrete thrill of "vulnerable" in the privacy of their love life. If they choose it for themselves and have fun, I'm all for it.

But on the flip side of that, try going onto any meetup forum nowadays and confess that you don't shave. The ugly hateful remarks you will see about "disgusting unshaved hairy pie" will appall you. We are talking about feminist stereotypes here, and sadly, I'd have to say that a lot of mainstream men these days expect their dates to be playboy airbrushed and unshaved. That to me is what has meaning. Why do men expect it of women? And what does that mean?

Okra: It's actually extraordinary how many books that are considered groundbreaking texts actually reify a number of antiquated archetypes. The kids just loved that I said "bitch" in class. And wrote it up on the board.

Mikyillo: Thanks! I had fun that day.

Geneva: We were looking at authorial intent vis-a-vis societal construction of gender roles, so I wanted to make sure that my students understood that Kesey CHOSE to write Nurse Ratched in this way. Not because he personally believes that all women are power-hungry bitches, but because that characterization serves a purpose in the text.

To put it a little more bluntly, just because you choose to shave your legs and armpits, or wear red lipstick on your mouth or rouge on your cheeks, or walk in high heels, because you "just think it looks nice", or "just like the way it makes me feel", does not give you the right to be hoitily offended when someone points out the historical (patriarchal) roots and meanings of these acts as cultural practices. At least, not if you want to be considered a person with an intelligent, well thought-through and critically-minded awareness of your own culture and its history.

Rosie - amen, sista! Reminds me of white folks sayin they don't wanna be in relationships brown folks cuz "Well, I'm just not attracted to brown people." Really?! That's not rooted in ANYTHING ELSE??? Come on, now, don't staunchly defend the status quo of -ist bullshit. THINK!

"Feminists hate sex"/"feminists are sluts" isn't a contradiction if you think of the second as someone telling himself "it's okay, she's not really a feminist."

Why that would be okay is a different issue.

Sorry, Ande, I think I may have said something in my post that I didn't mean, and that thing is what you're applauding me for.

If a white person says that they just don't find black (or brown or yellow or pink or grey) people physically/sexually attractive (and they are a different ethnicity), or that they just like the way high heels make a woman's leg look shapely, or they really like the feel and different-ness of shaving their pussy every now and then, and they don't think that their personal preference is directly attributable to a desire to follow a pattern of patriarchy/racism, then fine, I believe them. I understand Marilove's offense at Ama's inference that her shaven pussy is a conscious attempt to look like a prepubescent girl. But the key words there are 'directly' and 'conscious'; what Marilove was refusing to acknowledge was the role of patriarchal (or racist) practices in shaping cultural ideas of beauty, and therefore in shaping her own preferences and ideas of beauty.

I hope this makes my position a bit clearer.

So, I'm not saying that personal preferences are necessarily 'rooted' in patriarchal or racist practices, but that beauty standards and ideas in one's culture often are, and that individual choices/preferences are influenced by this culture.

@ ShelbyWoo:

I think you may have misunderstood me when you said: "I don't think it's helpful to advancing the rights of women to pretend that all of one's personal choices happens in one's own little bubble with no influence from or affect upon society." ... I don't think that. Actually, I started my post by saying "I think all women's actions DO affect other women." And later I said I think my choices are in fact influenced by society.

You're right though, I am struggling with self-examination... there are things I want (or think I want?) that I know are rooted in patriarchy. For example, I feel like I want my dad to walk me down the aisle if I choose to get married someday... even though I realize the historical implications of that. (Re: one man passing me off to another.) I'm young and a relatively new feminist and I think it's just a matter of sacrifice: letting go of things I want for arguably superficial reasons (basically, because I've been socialized to want them) for the greater good (support of other women, resistance to patriarchy).

All I was saying is that understanding it doesn't necessarily make it an easy thing to do. And I was offering a reason why Marilove might be resistant to coming to terms with it too: if she doesn't want to stop shaving (and on a larger scale conforming to what society wants) that might provide incentive to resist the belief that there are larger implications. Just a thought.

Don't forget that we're all Witches who hate Jesus and we're raging dykes. :) (Although, I'm confused about why that's bad.)

I have a hard time with the "frigid" accusation because although by this point I should be chill enough to ignore people who accuse me of hating sex, I'm not, and I end up wanting to scream, "I bet I have ten times more sex than you, you little twerp," and then of course I'm being a slut--

Only, wait a second, because my sex life is nobody's fucking business, unless I deem them worthy. And people who accuse me of being frigid, or jealous of girls who have lots of sex, or whatever, aren't worthy of knowing about my sex life.

It puts me in a really frustrating position, because I can't retort without referencing my private life.

And that's what pisses me off the most about the "frigid" accusation. How dare you 1) presume to know anything about my private sex life and 2) attempt to talk to me about my private sex life? It's mine. You don't get to say shit about it, positive or negative.

And then I wonder, why, in fact, does the world seem so obsessed with women's private sex life at all?

And then I remember why I'm a feminist.

[/stream-of-consciousness]

secretinsidegirl- i was just pointing out that one flew over the cuckoo's nest doesn't exactly "buy into these stereotypes" so much as expose them as stereotypes.

haha although these stereotypes do bug the crap out of me sometimes, they do make me laugh.
for example, my sister and cousing made up my life story based on a lot of feminist stereotypes. so here's how my life will end up. i will live in a loft with only pets and never married or even in a relationship. and i will spend my time away from society because all the sexism crap gets me angry so i stay at home, in my loft, making art. oh, and since i don't rely on a male, i do everything myself. and some of the furniture is falling apart....
i think that was all that was said.