How about talking to his wife instead of craigslist?

englishepa took the words right out of my mouth. Talk to your wife. Just be sure to ditch the gender essentialism before you do so.

This is going to be actual advice, like the kind that I'd give to a friend who presented this story to me. I will try to keep the snarky 'welcome to our world' comments to a minimum. OK, here goes.

There are a couple of different issues going on here.

1. He obviously feels resentment at moving away from his family in order to be close to hers. Is there a way he can keep in touch with his family better? Email? Weekly phone calls? Depending on the distance maybe a few visits during the year, with or without the wife.

2. The wife is working long hours and this further isolates the husband. Does he have a local support system? How close is he with the wife's family? Does he have friends in the area? How about parents of the children's friends?

3. There is an unequal distribution of labor in the house. How many hours is the husband putting in at his home business? Husband and wife need to sit down and talk about this. Her perception may be that he is home all day so that he has plenty of time to do all this stuff.

They really need to figure out which jobs need to get done and who will do them. I found that it helped with my male roommate that we estimated the amount of time it takes to do a certain job (for example, it takes about an hour to scrub the bathroom, 10 minutes to vacuum the living room) and how often it needs to be done (weekly, daily, etc). This helped us keep the lists fairly even and eliminated the you have all the easy chores mind set.

If money is available, they should consider getting a cleaning person to come in once a week or maybe once every two weeks. This has worked well for my sister and her husband, who both work long hours.

4. Husband and wife need to talk about their relationship, beyond housekeeping. He feels isolated and unappreciated. She may be unaware of the problem.

5. Lastly, husband seriuosly needs to loose the attitude that he is somehow less of a man and is being made into a woman. That alone makes me unsympathetic. But continuing on...

Husband is now a stay at home dad. Was this something he and his wife had talked about or did it just kind of happen? The post sounds like he isn't happy in this situation. Would he be satisfied if wife acknowledged his work or would it take working outside the home to make him happy? Judging from his post, it sounds like the latter. How old are the children? Can they be put in daycare or with relatives while husband works? Some people are simply not happy being a stay at home parent.

How about, suck it up and stop whining. No, just kidding. You know what you've got to do: Men's most feared verb. Talk.

Ah the brilliant women ahead of me have said much. The only other suggestion I would have is to bring a list of what you want to negotiate in writing. It is much easier to divide work when you have the list in front of you.

I would have to say the same thing I'd tell a woman in this situation--no one should shoulder the entire burden in a relationship. Basically, take advantage of being the one in control of the household. If she's not sharing the cleaning, do what you can and ignore the rest. Stop doing her laundry. Stop cooking the meals she likes and cook what you want. If you're unhappy at home with the kids, get a job. If she isn't contributing, she shouldn't be benefitting either. I went through all of that, then I stopped focusing on making my husband's life so easy and started focusing on improving mine. The marriage was over within two years, but at least now I don't have to stay up late washing his work clothes instead of sleeping, or rinsing his pubes out of the tub instead of sinking into a hot bubble bath.

It's extremely disturbing to me that he's apparently learned NOTHING about gender inequality from this personal experience.

Also, the comments about the man doing the lawn and shoveling made me laugh because my mother not only does ALL of the housework, but also mows the lawn, runs the snow-blower, and balances the household accounts. My step-father on the other hand comes home from work and sits in front of the television until his dinner is ready. They both work full-time.

I remember the first time I realized that my mother usually didn't even get a chance to sit down and take a breather until nine p.m. each night. I felt so tremendously guilty. I think that was the beginning of my feminist awakening. Thankfully all the kids are grown so she just has the one to take care of now.

There is something else he can do too - outreach. At every decent opportunity, he can tell the men he meets that the life a lot of women are expected to put up with - sucks - a lot! And he can tell them why.

Are we absolutely SURE that this is legit, and not someone baiting for something else...

It sounds too far fetched to me.

Call me cynical, but I don't think the post is legit. Something about the tone, the gratuitous emasculation panic references (sitting to pee, nipples) just rings false to me. I'm not buying what this dude is selling.

(btw, I'm not suggesting that the scenario is implausible. I just think the craigslist plea for "woman's POV" is disingenuous.)

Does he want a pity party? He's not done unpacking yet!

Why would the advice for this guy, if he's real, be any different from the advice for anyone else?

My advice to this guy is to stop trolling on craigslist and find something productive to do with his time.

Craigslist is an anonymous vent, Ayla. It probably took him all of two minutes to write the post and throw it up there. Why would you begrudge him two minutes? Is it because if he was being productive and making you your dinner, he wouldn't have time to feel lonely or used?

I agree with VTIdealist wholeheartedly.

I personally think that the majority of these comments would be entirely different if this was a vent written by a woman. As feminists there are exceptions to the norm, as we should all know by now, and if you do not believe this to be a need to reach out, then simply do not respond.

There is nothing wrong with showing some compassion and sympathy towards anyone (regardless of gender) under these sorts of circumstances. A poster on an internet webpage is still a human being no matter how dehumanized western culture is becoming, I don't know about you but if I actually talked to this person, I would respond differently. Hopefully the rest of you would as well.

How about talking to his wife instead of craigslist?
Exactly what I was going to say.

The way he says "I feel I'm being converted to a female in some sick way. I AM NOT A WOMAN!" essentially translates into "I'm a man, I'm above all this women's work, why should I have to do it, it's making my balls shrink". I feel no sympathy.

I think VTIdealist said it perfectly. You really need to talk to your wife/husband/partner about this kind of thing. That's the only way to work towards a solution that makes both partners happy. And Tiffany, the problem with your approach is that it lacks any sort of discussion completely. You're just immediately jumping to punishing your partner without telling them why you are upset. Maybe the wife in this situation has no idea that the responsibilities aren't evenly balanced. Maybe she thinks that she works extremely hard during the day and her husband has no problem doing the housework. Maybe she's doing little things when she gets home while he's cooking and cleaning that the husband isn't even aware of. The point is who knows. And if they don't have an open discussion about it they won't solve anything.

I'm with the skeptical ones here, I think he just wants to meet chicks. So, he'll get all these women who will respond with sympathetic answers and he'll be in dude heaven.

Posts by men that claim to be over the top sensitive to women's issues have to be investigated in the same way internet hoaxes are.

IMHO, a man who takes care of his family this way would be much more willing to talk to his wife directly instead of venting on Craiglist. In fact, I think anything posted on Craiglist is suspect until proven otherwise.

He sits to pee now. Hah! Maybe he really is turning into a woman! :)

In all serious, this guy is a whiner and needs to learn to communicate with his wife. No, I don't feel sorry for him. His sexist attitude makes me sick. Hey, some guys like to do the housework and stay at hom, that doesn't make them any less of a man!

femmefatale, you're right though. I don't think if I was talking to this guy directly I would be so... uhhh... rude. But I would try to fix his sexist attitude.

Spider Jerusalem,

You're right, it is anonymous, much like Feministing is/can be anon is you don't post any identifying info. And just like Feministing and every other site on the whole of the internet which allows user submitted comments and materials, craigslist has its share of trolls. My original post here wasn't meant to denigrate people of any sex/gender who are put into a situation where they are unappreciated or taken advantage of, it was simply my snarky way of saying that I think the whole posting is BS and completely fabricated. I'm with marylarken, I'm just not buying it.

who cares is this guy is legit?

I'm not married, and I don't even live with my bf. but one day I probably will be. and I don't know about you, but I'm scared that this is going to happen to me.

so for all of you women who've been there, what did you do in a situation like this?

grumpgirl.blogspot.com

grumpgirl: I'm not a woman, but you shouldn't be scared if you trust your boyfriend. If he really cares about you, he would not make you become a stay at home parent against your will. Don't ever let him tell you that "it's for the best" if it's something you don't want. If he believes it's for the best for a parent to stay at home while the other one works, then he can be the one that stays home!

What should he do? Obviously, make an anonymous posting on a popular website so that everyone can feel sowwy for him. Not for having tons of work, no no, read past that, it isn't really important; for being ALMOST A WOMAN!!

Is there a higher torture?

I want to quit the Internet so bad, but the good newspapers get sooo expensive....

My comment got eaten. :(

I emailed the guy. Here's what I wrote:

I'm sure that by now you know that your story was posted on www.feministing.com. Many people there do not feel sorry for you because you are upholding the gender binary even though now you understand why it sucks so much for us. However, I do feel sorry for you, so I decided to reply. Either you are trolling Craigslist for no reason (which is pity-worthy) or you are stuck in a sucky marriage.

So, here are my two cents:

1. Ditch the gender essentialism bullshit. Having balls doesn't make you exempt from housework, and doing it won't make them shrink.

2. Congratulations, you have become a stay-at-home dad. Did you and your wife ever discuss this, or did it just happen? Would you be happier working outside the home? If yes, then maybe you should tell her that you want to find a job and try to arrange for some sort of childcare. Or, maybe if you get a job, she won't have to work as much and you two can divide responsibility for watching your kids more.

3. It definitely sounds like you are shouldering way too much of the burden in your relationship, both physically and emotionally. Your wife is working constantly, leaving all of the housework to you, probably never emotionally available, etc. You need to talk to her about that too. See if you can work out some kind of schedule for the housework and divide chores up at least somewhat equally (completely equally may not be possible if she is working full-time and you aren't). She should at least clean up after HERSELF.

4. And, if you want to save the emotional aspect of your marriage, you should probably figure out a way to take time out to just spend on each other. I'm not married, but the happiest married couples that I know have similar systems: they are in bed (or in bedroom) by 10. 10-11 is "their time" that they take to only focus on each other (and this doesn't just mean sex). One night a week is Wife Night, where husband does whatever wife wants; one night a week is Husband Night, where wife does whatever husband wants; and the other five nights are Together Nights where both agree on something together.

5. You have to COMMUNICATE WITH YOUR WIFE. Right now you are in COMMUNICATION FAIL mode. I can tell because you are posting on Craigslist. You have to be able to talk to her. I cannot stress this enough. You HAVE to be able to communicate!

Good luck!

I think that he should just suck it up because in all honesty it is not that serious of a situation. Yes there is a middle ground and if he thinks this is going to break up his marraige then he should talk to his wife about it to fix it but what was the home situation before his wife got this job? was he the one working and she was the one doing all the house chores?
My grandmother does all of the cooking, cleaning, planting, mowing, etc. she does it all. Women have been doing this stuff for a long time and now because a man is complaining about it something HAS to be done. he needs to relax and take care of the kids instead of posting on craig's list. obviously he's not that busy.

I'm still confused...why does peeing standing up = pubes on the toilet seat? I've never shared a bathroom with a guy; do his pubes automatically fall on the toilet seat? And if so, shouldn't he therefore bear the responsibility of cleaning that up? I mean, if this guy's for real, I feel bad for his situation (even if his attitude sucks), but what sort of horrible world do we live in where your spouse is responsible for your pubes?

Okay this is getting way out of hand. There is so much sexism in this post towards men, yes ironic I know most of you probably think this statement is akin to white discrimination (you know with the whole white privilege that exists within our society), so I will not be at all surprised when this post does get blasted.

Back to the issue at hand, it is shitty ALL AROUND when one partner in a relationship is forced to bear the burden of the majority of the domestic chores/affairs because it is unequal. That is the concept that we as feminists have been trying to fight. So yes he is being sexist in his post because this the way that most people perceive gender stereotypes in our cultural landscape, this has only been demonstrated through our media and within our households- that does not mean I am excusing his behaviour.

I am only sadden that many posters are reinforcing his negative attitude by saying "Suck it up", no relationship should be:

A) Miserable
B) Embedded with inequality at the core of it
C) The inability to communicate with one's partner

If this was a female poster, there would be a rallying cry over the unfairness of it. Just because this guy's situation has be conveyed in a sexist way does not mean that the core of this post should be ignored. EQUALITY is what should be reached- eventually not this mockery of it.

Steve-O, thank you for admitting that. Showing some form of respect shouldn't be that difficult regardless of how easily one can conceal their own identity and be cowardly within their posts- the internet dehumanizes everything it seems. The issue should be the gender role and sexism that is being demonstrated by this unknown poster to those part of the feministing community.

I feel like it is so hard to judge and give advice on relationships via information from the internet because we don't know both sides of the story here. Sure this guy is saying that he is doing all of the everything, but he could be blowing it out of proportion because now that he has to do SOMETHING that feels like doing way more then he should. Of course no one should feel unhappy in a relationship. However often times I feel like both women and men make the mistake of blaming their partner for stuff we just have to do that has nothing to do with the relationship. Really by saying "I do X and my partner only does Y" can often really mean "I don't like doing X and I wish my partner would do X also". I see this so much in my own relationship. My partner hates doing certain things or finds them physically difficult, so he will complain about how I "don't do anything" but really I just don't do the things he doesn't want to do. So we kind of worked things out that I do things he really hates and he does somethings I really hate, that we both only kind of hate. Like for example I take out the trash, but he cleans up the kitchen. The only gray area is the laundry. He doesn't mind doing it, but he has a really bad habit of shrinking my stuff. Obviously this guy needs to compromise with his wife.

The "sit to pee" and nipples sticking out references make me wonder if this guy has some kind of emasculation fantasy that he's playing out. It would not exactly be unheard of for Craigslist to be used for such purposes.

But if he isn't, my first piece of advice would be to get ready to talk to his wife about these problems, and when he does, avoid making it sound as though the unfair division of work in his household is a problem only because it happens to be the man who's getting the short end of the stick.

Second, he needs to get a realistic perspective on his wife's workload. He says that she comes home and goes right back to doing work at home after dinner, which he compares to a man going off to his garage. That comparison may be unfair--what men get up to in their garages is not usually essential to the running of the household. (For example, if you're spending six hours fixing a toaster that would cost a half-hour's worth of salary to replace, that's not work, it's a hobby.) Why does she immediately leave the table and get back to work? If she isn't wasting time at work during the day(which is within the realm of possibility, but not the conclusion I'd jump to), then she's like a lot of us and has a boss who will assign her as much work as she'll take. What will happen if she explains that she's overloaded and needs to leave work at work? If the answer is that she'll lose her job or lose bonuses that the family depends on, then both of them, unfortunately, need to suck it up and deal. It's not like he works all day at the house and she works all day outside the house, then she gets to do what she wants while he keeps working. Somebody needs to do the at-home evening chores, and if she has to keep working to earn the living, then he has to keep working on the household stuff. That isn't pleasant--for either of them--but it's not *unfair*.

Housework and child care are a never-ending cycle where each job you do leads immediately into a new job: you get dinner on the table, and as soon as you eat it, the kitchen needs to be cleaned up. It's not like the wife has magic powers that can make those chores suddenly not take a big chunk out of *someone's* evening.

They need to sit down and figure out what needs to be done and how long it takes, and how much free time is left over, then distribute chores and free time equally. It's possible that the distribution of labor is already fair; we don't have enough information to tell, and in fact, neither of them may have enough information to tell until they sit down and compare notes. If her job requires her to take work home almost every day, then neither of them is going to have as much free time as they'd like, but it *is* important that both parties see that they each get a fair share of the limited leisure time that is available.

HELLO. I'm the stay at home dad who everyone is talking about. I'm legit. I'm not out trying to pick up "chicks" or anything. I'm not this mixed up weirdo that some of you think I am. And thank you to the ones who actually understand. I am a PERSON who works out of his home and takes care of the daily chores by myself. I was trying to be funny and not sexist. I do the chores around the house because that's my responsibility. I was just using the "traditional" roles of man and women to make a point. The point is women have been put into this stereotype for years and have a lot of good advise to give. THAT IS ALL I WAS SAYING. I've talked and talked and talked with my wife. Remember, I'm the "female" in this senareo. I'm the talker. What do "traditional" males do??? Nothing. That's what my wife does. Nothing. I still pick up dirty underwear and trash that is left behind....and oh yes...I do leave it there some times....but I get tired of the mess. I know...that's my problem.

We moved across country for her. And it's way cross country. She says, and I quote, I HATE that state and will never go back. That was after we got here. She took a job without talking it over with me. I was glad to assume the role but not the lack of attention and gratitude.

So now I will stop whinning and get back to cleaning the house, taking care of 3 new puppies (her idea) and more better things than wasting 3 minutes typing this. ( I type for a living )

It's the STAY AT HOME DAD AGAIN. Food for thaught for all who are soooo negtive towards me: As I was pulling out the Banana Bread from the oven I started to think; Who taught me how to do this? It was self taught. My parents being "traditional" stereotypical man and woman, I was taught the more "manly" things. I'm 40 years old if that helps place what that means. It wasn't a throw away society that we live in now. Most of the things I learned from my Dad...not needed today. That's the sad part. So I've been married now for almost 20 years and I've been the priniciple homemaker for those 20 years. SELF TAUGHT. I've worked a "typical" 40 hour job for 15 of those years while doing the extra chores. Now I work at home which is nice. I have 2 kids that are pre-teen. I didn't get any training from my Mom on this. I'm making it up as I go. My wife works in the evening because it relaxes her. Not because we need the money. I play games with the kids, help them with their homework and make sure they are brought up right.

Sorry...whinning again.

Stay@homeDAD, I tried to give you advice as best as I could. Now you really are whining and throwing a pity party. You are in an unhappy marriage and probably an unhealthy relationship and that sucks. But please, please, lay off the poor me this is so hard noone understands what I go through line of defense.

There are no magical housekeeping/child rearing courses that women take. Young women learn the same way that young men do, by observation and then by practice. You learned nothing of value from your father? Did he interact with your mother at all? If he wasn't a good role model, did you at least learn a counter-example? How about your mother? Did you learn anything from her?

It sounds like you have a lot of resentment towards your wife for moving the family across the country and then taking a significant change in work hours without consulting you. These issues, along with the housekeeping, will need to be sorted out if you guys want to have any kind of hapiness.

Have you considered therapy? Both couples and private sessions would probably do you some good. There is no way to solve this problem without the two of you communicating and working together.

Ann, were you not also responsible for that awful 'joe sixpack' post? And now you feel sorry for douchebags and their sense of male entitlement? WTF? Why are you posting on a feminist website?

VTIdealist....OMG you have some real issues don't you?? Not all women are perfect. That includs my MOM. For crying out loud. Parents make mistakes. I'm trying NOT to make the same mistakes my parents made. I've been in therapy with my wife...... IT TAKES TWO TO MAKE A RELATIONSHIP WORK. Can't you read??? Or are you blinded by some other problems with men. I am an honest man looking for honest answers THAT WORK. What happens when communication doesn't work? What happens when you give 100% and don't get anything in return? AM I the only one out there that feels this way??? What's to happen to me? I give and give and give and now I don't know who I am and you give that kind of advise. The therapist at least told me to take care of myself first....HA....what a selfish point of view. MY KIDS COME FIRST. Call it whinning or whatever but this is a real problem and all you people can do is call me a liar, a scam artist, a male who doesn't communicate. We here's the truth...my wife probably doesn't love me enough to want to do anything. She's a selfish person like some of you sound like. I feel sorry for the females of planet if this is what you're becoming. Compassion has left the females and males are struggling to show it.

Now that is what I meant by the pity party. I don't recall anyone here telling you that you're a 'male who doesn't communicate'. Some people gave some good advice and I stick by my original post (2nd from top); it's the same advise I would give if a woman had presented me the same story.

So, what do you do when commuication breaks down? If there are problems in the relationship, you need to communicate in order to fix them, whatever the problem. You also need to evaluate your needs. Are your needs being met? Obviously not, by the sound of your post. You cannot fix this on your own. If your wife is unable or unwilling to help you, then you need to decide what your breaking point is. I'm not sure what other advice you are looking for.

As an aside, I think that your therapist is correct. You need to focus on your own needs in order to take care of your children. If you are bitter or resentful towards your wife or depressed, then your children will pick up on that.

Good luck. I hope that you find the support that you need.

So, did you get the woman's point of view you were looking for, Stay@homeDAD? I mean, when I saw your post on Craigslist, I thought, "Well, where is there a better place to get womens' point of view than Feministing?" I hope you found the advice you needed... and, hey, stick around- maybe you could learn some things! :)