Yeah, I don't go to restaurants expensive enough for different menus, though I am wondering how someone made it known s/he wanted a no-price menu.

As for "y'all," it's honestly something I think people outside the South don't understand. I say that as a Southerner married to a Yank who dearly loves the South. Using "you guys" isn't so much about gender as it is alientation. If I went to a very "Southern" restaurant - food and climate-wise - and someone said "you guys," it would stick with me that obviously this super-Southern restaurant wasn't hiring real Southerners.

I know, I know. It's weird, but it's an ingrained feeling. Now that's not to say I'd place some value on you for saying "you guys," but others who are more entrenched in the way of life there would.

No prices?! Shit, I'd be like "Can I have half a side dish of broccoli? Wait, maybe a quarter. No, I'll be fine with bread... it is free, right?"

How on earth would I eat in peace not knowing the prices?

(Even when I'm not paying, I flip out about prices... then again, if I must know the price of my food, then I'm not exactly welcome in such a fine establishment, am I?)

"you guys" IS gender inappropriate. It's also superfluous when used with plural "you."

Hm yeah, I've ordered wine and had to correct the taste-pouring before.

If I were to receive a menu with no prices and it wasn't my birthday or something, I would probably up and leave.

Ok. I'm a waitress.

Here's the problem:
If I serve the man first, I might be perceived as having a gender bias toward him. If I serve the woman first, as yes, I AM trained to do, I can be seen as having a gender bias but most often, no one is going to get mad at me (and perhaps tip me less) for favoring the woman.

I DO pay very close attention to who has ordered the wine, as that person will taste it. I also am very careful to put the check in the gender neutral middle of the table (unless someone very specifically has asked me to give them the check) and once a credit card has been processed, to return the checkbook to the proper person.

I am a woman and a feminist and I work very hard for my money. Please do not punish me for trying not to offend you.

I didn't realize people were paying such close attention to who gets served first!
Maybe it's a generational thing?

Xenu, I completely hear you. I was also a waitress for years and did all the same things you described.

Also I've never had a guy fuss when I've held the door open for them. I lived in the South for a while and I would hold the door open for anyone, man or woman. And most of the guys I knew would do the same.

If they made everyone wear the same outfit regardless of gender, and told you not to address mixed groups as "you guys", it sounds like they were on the right track.

I'm also from the south, and Xenu and Llevinso, ditto on the door-holding thing. I hold it open for women and men alike, and I can't remember a man ever being offended for me doing so.

What is annoying, however, is paying for meals when I go out with my boyfriend. We like treating each other, and when I treat him, I'm often met with a confused and sometimes disapproving look after handing over my credit card. It happens sometimes when we pay separately, too.

grumpgirl.blogspot.com

I was a waiter in 2001 and I don't recall having to worry about any of these things. But then again, I'm in Cali.

By the way, you were a waitress in 2003 and you said it didn't bother you at that time. So what did you experience between then and now that turned you into the Feministinger you are today? :)

I completely agree with Brandi and Xenu. I also wait tables and am from the south, and have experienced the same things. Some people get really offended if you don't take the women's orders first, likewise with serving the actual food and drinks. And, if I was ever in a southern restuarant and heard 'you guys' it would definitely stick out. Especially if it was a formal restuarant, y'all can still sound formal and you guys does not.

Xenu: I'm glad you said that you put the check in the middle. That's always what I do, and I think servers should be told to place it there. And GrumpGirl, that's ridiculous, I can't believe people are still astonished when women pay for the meal.

I was born and raised in the south, and for what it's worth, I don't much care who gets served their food first. It does kind of get to me though, when we get a server who will ONLY address my husband, while I have to practically send up a flare for any kind of acknowledgement. (These are generally the ones who act surprised when I order my own food) I've been told that some servers do this because they automatically assume the man is paying, and if they cater to him, they'll get a bigger tip.

And on that note, there are few things that will get a tip deflated faster than if I pay (with a debit card that has my name and picture on it, that I handed to the server rather than leaving it on the table for pickup) and the server brings my card back and hands it to my husband, thanking him for his business, without even so much as looking at me. It's not his damn card or even his money. It's mine.

i have to hand it to los angeles restaurants, i generally always have a gender-neutral experience while dining out here, which i do...like, a LOT (i'm not much of a cook and i have a lot of friends and disposable income, sue me.) the wine ordering thing is a huge deal to me--i would be horrified if waitstaff brought a bottle i ordered to my boyfriend instead, but that hasn't happened so far.

what i will occasionally get is the check with the credit card slip returned to him to sign instead of me. i'm more ok with this when it's just left on the table for them to pick up than if i actually HAND them the check with my card, but i guess it's still best to lay it down in between a couple rather than handing it to one person or the other. that's what they typically do when i go out with a larger group or with other women only.

i definitely haven't noticed me being served first on a uniform basis, which is good. maybe it also helps that i eat at a lot of trendy tapas and vaguely asian places where we order a number of small plates and those come out as they are ready and are put down in the middle.

Here is something strange that I've noticed:

I address the woman first. She looks at her husband, and he orders her steak. I ask HER, looking at HER, how she'd like it done, and HE tells me well-done.

This has happened far more than once.

I find that creepy. What's UP with that?

On a somewhat related note, we met some friends (they live in the midwest, we live in Austin) in New York for a weekend recently.

When my (female) friend asked for the check at our breakfast restaurant, the waitress brought it right away and put it in front of her. After the waitress walked away, my friend leaned over to me and said in a low voice, "I don't like her."

Why not? Because the waitress had put the bill in front of *her* and not in front of her husband. I was shocked that this would bother her and also that I hadn't before realized this about her. When I pointed out that *she* had asked for the bill, she shrugged and looked away and then said, "Well, I guess things just aren't as traditional in New York as they are back home."

Uh. Yeah.

I really think that people that haven't waited tables before just don't realize how tricky it can be and what us servers have to deal with. It's just a very thin line and we're not mind readers. I've had people get upset over the littlest things. They'd pay with cash and I'd bring back there change and they would get upset saying something like, "why'd you give me my change? You assumed the change wasn't you tip? This isn't enough for you?" So then I'd try to resort to just asking right away when I picked up the bill if they needed change and some people would get made saying "Of course I need change, do you think that's your tip?!" Again, we're not mind readers. I know those things don't have to do with gender at all but it just gets really annoying when people rag on servers because most of the time we're doing stuff that's required of us and we're trying to please you. Give us a break!

And whoever said they are given a hard time when paying for their boyfriend, that's ridiculous. I don't think I've ever had that problem. I don't see the big deal at all with switching off who pays for things. That's what you do in a partnership.

I have waited tables before at a nursing home (where there no tips). While almost all patrons expected me to serve women before the men, but I served whoever was closest to me first, if they didn't like it - oh well; I figured I'd be happy to introduce them to feminism if they weren't already acquainted. Now I am vegan and will only dine at restaurants which a). have vegan, or at least vegetarian options and b). have no problem serving men before women or giving the bill to women. All feminists should demand to have the check returned to them if they are the ones who have agreed to pay. Or maybe we should all just go Dutch when we dine.

I'm from the smack middle of Illinois, and I worked as a teen at a local salad bar and grill place. The application asked you to check off what work you'd be willing to do, and the jobs were listed under "male" and "female" headings (male jobs being busboy, dishwasher, salad bar refiller, etc. and female jobs being such things as hostess and server). I checked off everything because I was really wanting a job at that point.

So I sucked so bad as a server that they put me on as the salad bar stocker. There were also two female grillers because they had worked there long enough to be promoted to that position. But I still had to wear a skirt (yes, all the girls were required to wear skirts) despite working in a walk-in freezer. I also felt bad for the guys because the manager would get pissy all the time (for no reason) and scream at the guys over little stuff, but he would politely grit his teeth whenever a girl made a mistake.

I've never waited tables, but I've been in customer service for years, and I'll tell ya, you just can't make everybody happy. Like stuperb said a few comments up, if you assume that the person asking for the bill should be handed the bill, you can irritate people, just as if you assume the bill goes to the male (which, sadly, is 'just the way it's been' for so long that it's ingrained in some people, and also sometimes partially dictated by higher-ups in some cases) you can get in trouble. You can also pick up several bills at once, or pick up from one table, and get caught by someone asking for bread or water or whatever on your way back, plus who knows how many other little distractions, and forget something like who originally handed you the bill. thegecko, your comment struck me because of the exact type of scenario I just described - you are not their only customer, and they are humans, too, liable to make mistakes or get distracted. I would think they'd be deserving of a little understanding. Pay for waitstaff sucks in most places, and once I realized that these people are making a living pretty much off of tips (sometime in my teens), I have been committed to tipping 20% and up unless something that can only be attributed to mean-spiritedness happens, which I can't remember ever being the case. Heck, when the server is nice or laughs at one of my awkward, dumb, social-anxiety ridden jokes, they often get up to half of the meal cost tipped, just so I can make up for people that undertip for petty, mean reasons (assuming that I can afford more than that 20%). Not to mention the fact that female waitstaff deal with just ridiculous amounts of misogyny every day simply because they are in a position that many customers consider to be 'beneath' them, and thanks to 'the customer is always right' mentality, not to mention the need for tips to pay their rent and whatnot, they often can't talk back or remove themselves from an uncomfortable situation, which was my experience in all my customer service jobs - you're stuck, if you want to keep working.

Women often pull crap like that on servers, too. One day I will write an even longer rant about customer service and how difficult it is because it's virtually impossible to defend yourself against anything but outright assault, and at some jobs, not even that ('oh, he was just joking around when he grabbed your ass! get back out there, gotta keep the customers happy!' [never happened to me, thank {entity}, but I've seen it]).

Augh, I'm babbling. For now, I think I'll wrap up, simply hoping I've made my point, which is: give your servers a break, people. They're not perfect, and anything they do that annoys you, they've probably been yelled at/undertipped for doing the opposite. Sad but true. :-(

I eat at fancy restaurants not infrequently--usually with my male fiance. I can't say that I've never noticed a waiter put a check in front of him, assume what drinks or food was our according to gender, or address him rather than me. And I'd notice. The restaurant community has come a long way in their gender assumptions.

I have to address one person they quoted in the article. Steve Dublanica, blogger of Waiter Rant, is an asshole. He's the guy with the lovely quote of: "Women are more verbal than men. That’s a scientific fact." His shtick on his blog is to be the most sour and pessimistic person to appeal to his readers (he just got a book deal). I guess to try to be world weary. So I'm not surprised that he's throwing around general sexist comments. He likes to make things controversial. Like another server said later in the article, and anyone who's waited can tell you, a group of men who get together can be just as chatty and a gettogether of women.

Someone up-thread asked about speaking to the woman and having the man answer. This is often the case with my husband and me, but it isn't a sexist/gender moment. I have a good deal of difficulty hearing most servers over the background noise in a restaurant, so I will discuss with my husband what to order for me. I will try to answer if it makes the server uncomfortable, but it just makes it a much longer and less sure process. If I can't hear and the server seems intent on speaking directly to me, I will often just agree to whatever the server is saying and try my best.

Just wanted to let you know that in some cases, there is a non-sexist reason for the companion doing the ordering and speaking.

Xenu:
I know a lot of couples who order for their partner. Usually when they're closest to the waiter, whoever is paying for the meal, or if the couple plans to split the meal. It often switches back and forth. My fiance and I do it for each other all the time. Now, I don't usually hang around with couples where the men are dominant and controlling, so I can't say that it doesn't happen in a creepy way, but I see it all the time in a non-creepy way.

I work in a restaurant in Brooklyn currently and whenever I have the opportunity to, I like to put the food in front of the man first (when a man and a woman are dining together.) I like it especially when I can tell the man will be uncomfortable to receive his food one second before his female companion. This mere instant of panic that the man feels erases the bitterness I feel from being a twenty-three year old college graduate restaurant worker.

Flippy: the notion behind the menu-without-price is that when a man and woman are dining together, he will necessarily be paying for the meal, so she doesn't need to know the prices. (You can see such a scene in the 1965 version of Doctor Zhivago, where Julie Christie sits down in a restaurant with Rod Steiger, glances over her menu, and breathes, "This place must be very expensive!")

What I as a diner don't care for -- and this has happened twice, once in a diner and once in a casual-sitdown restaurant -- is when I ask for my steak medium rare, and the (male) server comments on how very strange that is, because women "always" want their steaks well done. Nobody likes to be told, "You're weird."

OK, I'm the male version of LauraPalmer. My experience is the polar opposite -- women far more than men are the ones who expect service first, and I hate it. Virtually every waitress I have (and I eat out at least once a day) and virtually every woman I am with expects the woman to order first and to be served first. I like to comment to the waitress about my disapproval of such practices especially when I can tell it will make her uncomfortable to serve the man one second before his female companion. These indignant waitresses often deign to teach me about "manners." And a couple of times I've gone to the manager because of such rude lectures. Male waiters are far more egalitarian, in my experience.

So LauraPalmer, I suspect that when you serve men first (at least younger men) you are more likely pissing off the women they are with. And if you dared to serve ne last based on my gender, you would not get as good a tip from me, and I would lecture you.

And please don't expect me to hold the door for you any more than I would a guy.

@natbsat: Don't worry, I understand exactly how much server pay sucks. I worked my way through college in various forms of customer service and I remember all too clearly how some people can be.

However, I'm talking about cases where it's been fairly obvious that I'm the one paying. I've never seen a server make that mistake when I'm out with a girlfriend, regardless of whether one of us treated the other or the checks were separate. Also, even if they forgot whose card it was, wouldn't it make good sense to thank and acknowledge both of us? After all, we both generated revenue for the restaurant by eating there. My objection is not that I've been the subject of human error, it's that I've been treated (thankfully not by many) as if I do not exist. I've always been a very generous tipper, usually ranging in 25% and up for superb service (I've left as much as double the bill before), 20% for average/mediocre service, and 10-15% means you really screwed something up.

thegecko, you actually sound a little like me now. :-) I could probably have a whole bowl of soup dumped in my lap or a steak replacing my veggie entree and still tip 15%, just 'cause I'm like that.

I see your point with the check, and each situation is obviously different. I'm just so used to seeing my customer service colleagues trodden on that I overreact sometimes, I'm sure you understand. :-) I've actually rarely been anywhere that I can remember where they haven't just put the bill down, so I probably haven't even run into that situation. My husband and I have a joint credit card that we always use to pay anyway, and it's usually whoever gets to the wallet first. Random pointless mini-contests are fun!

i agree with all of the above posts but i am wondering what a "formal" restaurant is? i took that to mean fine dining which is the ONLY place you would ever find a no price menu -- if that is the case i never expect to hear "y'all" OR "you guys" when i am at a fine dining establishment whether it's in the south (i live in florida) or anywhere else for that matter -- i want articulation from my servers in a fine dining restaurant and i want to be addressed formally -- part of what i am paying for in fine dining is exceptional service that is not all palsy walsy but still very friendly and helpful -- i am a fledgling foodie and i take my fine dining seriously!

I bet you get your food spit in a lot, fledgling foodie.

I'm from both Florida and the South, and they are not the same place. Florida is Southern geographically, but not culturally, especially South Florida. The further North you go the more the culture resembles the Deep South. In the cultural South, "y'all" is equivalent to "you" and any time one could use the word "you" to refer to people, one can use the word "y'all." In Texas, which is the part of the South that I am from, "y'all" is singular. The plural form is "all y'all," although people do use "y'all" as a plural.

@Destra: I'm with you. Mr. Waiter Rant is a grade A tool. And his scientific fact? Is wrong.

I am going to sound dim here, but can someone explain to me the gender implications of y'all instead of you guys? I mean, I'm kind of with bifemmefatale, in that my knee jerk reaction is to say that y'all is more gender equal. or did not everyone have to say y'all? I have not been asked to order first enough to notice it, though I often do, in a worry that people are going to ask my boyfriend to order for me. Never thought of this implication. and I do have sympathy for waitstaff who have to somehow try and read minds. I tend to be curious if they'll give the bill to the male, and the answer is sometimes. I've once had them give my boyfriend my card, and really obviously took it in front of the server, but feel too guilty to reduce the tip for the reasons already stated. I wish I knew what to do at the time-I realize that the server is usually just following instructions, and it isn't there fault. so what will correct the issue?

I hold the doors open for guys all the time ^_^

the other day i was at school and a guy held the door open for me, so i jumped ahead to hold the door for him, and then he jumped ahead to hold the door for me again, and then I yelled at him because There were no more doors for me to open for him.

I used to work at a seater at an Italian sit-down restaurant (a chain--you can guess which one). I had a couple of pet peeves:

1. I would get to work for dinner shift at about 4:00 and look at the reservation book. If there was a large party (8 or more), I would go ahead and find a server who could handle it and ask, "I have a party of 12 coming in tonight at 7:00...can you take them?" And almost without fail, the server would go to the reservation book, check the last name on the reservation, and THEN decide if they could take the party. If the name was "too ethnic," I would often get, "Oh, it's just a fact! They don't tip! I'm not being racist..." Um, yes you are. Similarly, if party of African-American people came in, there were several servers who would literally RUN up to the front and say, "I know I'm next in the rotation but please don't give me those people."

2. Servers at lunch (usually male) would specifically ask NOT to get parties of three or more women, because apparently they all just order salads and sit there for the whole shift and then ask for separate checks. I get that you want a table that will be tipping on a larger total and who won't make it impossible to turn your tables, but really? ALL of them do that? And men NEVER do? Doubt it.

How does y'all sound formal?

I'm definitely not thinking formal with that word. I agree its wrong to use 'you guys,' but why not 'you all,' or 'you folks,' rather than y'all?

This reminds me of something that happened at work (I work at a coffee shop).

A young man and woman were waiting for their mochas, and when they were ready, he got up to get both.
"Y'know, she's got legs too," I joked. After they laughed, I added, "On second thought, we DON'T as women. But we'll grow a pair when we get equal wages for equal work."

Case closed.

Attacking little societal issues like opening doors and menus with missing price tags distracts us from the main issues, as feminists. Issues like violence against women, equal pay, the beauty myth, and protecting Roe V Wade.

How you react to a man paying for your dinner is a very personal issue. Don't go around telling women that it's "not feminist" to allow someone to buy you something (unless it's birth control, of course). I appreciate this post for the issues it raises, but aren't we past this? We have enough pride as women to accept an open door, and then to open the next one, whether it's for a man, an elderly person, or a fellow woman.

I didn't really get the point of this post. Men and women ARE different, thats why they are treated differently. I think you should stop concentrating on being offended by every tiny acknowledgement of your gender by others. I for one hope people keep distinguishing between the genders because a world in which we're all to be treated in exactly the same way as the next man/woman sounds pretty boring.

So, man/devil, how do you suggest we treat intersexed people then? Gender is not as simple as you'd like to think.