I'm a big believer in the campsite rule, not as a feminist thing but as a human being thing. Everyone, male, female, trans should practice it. That being said, sometimes I'm drunk and tired.

AND women are different enough where some guy who may not be doing it for you may have been trained up by someone before you who just liked something different.

It's not about teaching a playbook it's about listening to each other.

I hear you loud and clear. I've been on both sides of the orgasm coin, mostly on the having them OH YES side though. In all fairness, I am fortunate enough to be able to climax from oral stimulation and/or penetration. One guy, just one, when I was deciding whether or not casual sex outside of a relationship was right for me (twasn't) couldn't give me orgasms. Not only that, but when asked he told me that 1) he thinks boys should not have to go down on girls and 2) he does not care whether or not I am having as much fun/pleasure as he is. Upon hearing this, I left him asleep in the middle of the night and never looked back.

Thanks for this, because in the 10 years I've been sexually active, I've been faking it the whole time. Every time I'm in between partners, I think to myself that it's so stupid and the only reason I'm doing it is because my partners' ego seems to hinge on it (one stopped going down on me because I never did orgasm and it HURT HIS FEELINGS), and I think, "I'M the one losing out here, my orgasm is for ME, not them, I need to cut this shit out." And then I end up in that stupid trap over and over again. Honestly, I don't even know HOW to have one with another person, for me, it's totally a solo thing.

I think it's definitely going to take a really good (emotionally), long-term partner for me to get there, amen to the idea that casual hookups just don't produce good sex (mine have ALL been disappointing - good sex is almost like a language, and it doesn't just happen). I'm going to go read the two other entries you linked, but if anyone else wants to kick my ass and offer any insight that I might benefit from, please feel free. I'm only hurting myself with my stupid behavior and really need to end it.

Yes, Courtney. Yes, Colleen. It's hard enough sometimes to have an orgasm through intercourse for women whose clitori are not stimulated, and even cunnilingus can be a little troublesome--a bit too vulnerable for some women and too confusing for some men. If other modes are doing it for you, let him do something with your breasts or something while you masturbate. Get that orgasm. But if you don't feel it, let him know! Not this time. No big thing.

I've had some amazing hook-up sex. Sometimes it resulted in orgasms, sometimes it didn't (usually it didn't if I was intoxicated, but I have a hard time orgasming if I'm intoxicated, even if it's sex with a long-term partner). I've also had some shitty, shitty sex with long-term partners. I don't fake it, because I'm not that good at faking it. Also, I canNOT come from straight PIV sex, and I'm not overly fond of oral because I don't have the patience (I'm like, "fuck me! now!"), and sometimes I have no desire whatsoever to make myself orgasm. If he finishes before me and I want to orgasm, I do -- by bringing myself there.

I love my sex life and I have no complaints. For me, orgasm isn't the only thing about sex. If I want one, I know how to get it and I know what to do to get there, but sometimes, honestly it's too much work and takes away from the fun.

Also, I've had some shitty, shitty relationship sex. Thinking back, some of my best sex has been from one night stands. Sometimes it's easier to let go when you know you're not going to see the person again, or you know they are just a friend/fuck buddy.

That should have been "if other modes /aren't/ doing it for you."

MeggyB: "The sexiest thing is trust." --Tori Amos

Alixana: See my masturbation with a partner post! It was awkward at first, introducing it, but it hasn't steered me wrong except when I just don't feel it coming. Here's hoping you get yours!

So, is Kimmel using these numbers as proof that casual sex is wrong and that women should only be in permanent relationships? Just wondering because it seems like it would be easy for conservatives to latch onto these numbers for their own purposes.

I have difficulty achieving an orgasm with a partner as well, alixana. I know it's because it takes me awhile to get there (usually at least twenty minutes) and most of the guys I've been with just don't take the time. I don't fake, though. I just don't come, and then the guy disappears.

For a long time I thought of myself as "broken," because everything that's out there in the media portrays women getting off just from a few moments of intercourse. But the more I hear from other women, the more I realize that most of the stuff you see and read is BS.

Those of you women who can achieve it through penetration alone, my hat's off to you! I'm sincerely jealous.

I wonder how much of it is women faking it, and how much is men being completely self-absorbed idiots. As a disclaimer, I should say that I've never faked it. The only guy I ever would have faked it for (my first sexual partner, and NOT a healthy relationship, though it taught me a lot) never gave me an orgasm, and it's pretty hard to fake something when you've never experienced it.

Yes, being honest about your pleasure is definitely a good thing and it is a feminist goal, but to cast it as a duty, and by implication to suggest that women who aren't willing or able to be vocal about their own needs are doing something wrong, really misses the mark. For a woman to speak up about her needs she has to feel like she is on equal footing with her sex partner, and that isn't always the case. When you lecture and castigate women for not speaking up, you're putting the blame for men's unwilling to listen, men's (occasionally intentional) blindness to female pleasure, on women. Women surely share some of that blame, but you can't just say, "Hey you! Speak up about your orgasms because it's your duty and if you don't, other women are going to suffer, too!" and expect that to fix the problem, because not all women are going to be in a position to do that.

Sure it would be great if women were empowered to vocalize their needs, but that's just not always going to be the case. When you couch it in terms of duty and say "If the last girl that had taken that dude home had taught him a thing or two about a thing or two, you wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. You hear me?" you are assuming that any woman who isn't in a position to feel empowered to speak up is doing something wrong. She might be, or she might not be - you don't know. And by making this a duty, ie something that MUST be done, you're presuming that every woman is in a position where speaking up about her sexual needs is something that CAN be done. That's really presumptuous.

I don't see how anyone can have the patience to fake it. Why have sex at all?

ottermatic.wordpress.com: Do you mean if she's being raped? What are you talking about? If she has the agency to decide whether to have sex, why can't we assume that she has the agency to get her orgasm? Can you give an example of the equal footing problem?

Flippy, re: "Why have sex at all?" - because even if you don't have the Big Bang, everything else is really enjoyable and feels good. Which is what I TRIED to explain to the ex-boyfriend-who-had-hurt-feelings-over-me-not-orgasming, that even if we kept trying and he never got me there, oral sex felt GOOD. But he wasn't having none of THAT.

It is your feminist duty to 1) seek pleasure and feel entitled to it and 2) to make the world a more orgasmic place for other women.

I love the idea that this is my feminist duty. I love it that feminism is about the responsibility to make the world a more pleasurable place for women and girls. I mean, who the hell can argue with that??

And all those anti-feminist crazies say we're no fun . . .

Nice post Courtney. I just finished reading Guyland myself recently, and that disparity certainly stood out to me too. I wasn't necessarily persuaded by the entirety of Kimmel's argument, but his basic feminist orientation is certainly evident and I was grateful for it.

I've never faked an orgasm, although I've only had two partners. I only had sex with the first partner one time, and it was too painful to orgasm. My second partner, who I'm currently with, is amazing. If I give him oral sex, he makes sure to return the favor. There has only been 3 or 4 times when I didn't have an orgasm with him. There have been a couple times when he hasn't been able to come, as well. I think honesty is better than protecting a fragile man's ego.

Hey Courtney,

Kristen here from Girl with Pen. I have a slightly different take on this question. First, I have to question the extent to which we center everything around the female orgasm. There are plenty of woman I know who are unable to achieve orgasm with a partner, long term or hookup, no matter what they or their partners do. I even know women who have never been able to achieve orgasm on their own-- an idea I admittedly do find distressful, because let's be honest, orgasm can be a huge release.

That being said, the focus on the orgasm is a very male-centric notion. Some women can get plenty of pleasure from various sexual acts, which may or may not culminate in orgasm, and they will still be fulfilled and still think they had a pretty damn good hookup. Orgasming can be great-- but must it be the very definition of what we label sexually "good"?

If we're going to ask "what is feminist" I would argue that it is more feminist for a woman to decide whether she feels comfortable revealing what can be intimate information (e.g. "I have a hard time orgasming during sex" or "I've never orgasmed with a partner before") to someone who may just be there for good time sex. I really agree with ottermatic.wordpress.com. It is just too simplistic to say that orgasm is something that must and can be done, and that must be made an issue of if it is not done. For a lot of women, it just isn't that easy.

I find it strange that Kimmel's assumption is that women are 'faking' it and not that men are misperceiving the women's experience. Likely it's possible there is some of both contributing to the difference in numbers, but why does he immediately turn to women as being deceptive?

Now let me preface this by saying that I love sex. However, I'm one of those women that very rarely get off from sex. Does that make my experience any less enjoyable? Hell no! I still love it! I have a great time. And I'm not quiet about it. I let the guy know what a good time I'm having. This is how I think a lot of these numbers can become misconstrued. I have never faked an orgasm or lied about having one. If a guy asks me if I did or not I will tell him the truth. But my guess is that a lot of guys ASSUME I have them because of the way I am during sex because it's obvious I was having such an enjoyable experience. What am I supposed to do? Sit a guy down after every sexcapade that doesn't elicit an orgasm and say "Just so you know, I know I was screaming and carrying on and everything felt really really good, but I didn't have an orgasm."

And I agree with whoever the person was that commented that what one woman teaches a guy might feel good for her but does not necessarily feel good for the next woman. We're all different and experience pleasure in different ways.

The problem is that so many guys think that sex is pointless without an orgasm. Well in my world having an orgasm isn't the everything and I like sex just fine without it. My goal in sex is to have a good time. If I get off during it: awesome. If not: still awesome.

Why's it my frickin job to teach the guy where the clit is? Can't he read a manual or something? Why do women always end up teaching men what's what?

It is your feminist duty to 1) seek pleasure and feel entitled to it and 2) to make the world a more orgasmic place for other women.

If the last girl that had taken that dude home had taught him a thing or two about a thing or two, you wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. You hear me?

I take no issue with #1, but for the rest of it? Victim-blame much? It is not a woman's duty to educate men on female anatomy. If they aren't doing research on what their sexual partners wants and needs are or on basic female anatomy, or communicating with their partner, it is the man's fault for being an ignorant, selfish shit who cares more about his pleasure than his partner's.

In your example, you're blaming the man's past female sex partners for his sexual inadequacies, when it's his own goddamn fault for not asking questions, for not soliciting feedback from his sex partners. Why should a woman be responsible for the sexual pleasure a man's future partners? Why should a woman hold a man's past partner's accountable for his sexual inadequacies?

Women can have great sex without having an orgasm. If there's miscommunication or lack of communication, a man may interpret the noises a woman makes during sex as her having an orgasm. A woman may be having a great time, but may not have had an orgasm. They walk away from it with two very different impressions. Later on, the man thinks the woman was lying about having an orgasm. She feels bad about it, and from then on feels added pressure to play up her pleasure so the man isn't disappointed. Both sides share some blame here, but I think you're being unfair to women by saying it's their duty to educate men.

Women are socialized to believe that sex is always a universally wonderful, magical experience. If they don't feel that way when they have sex, they're shamed into thinking there's something wrong with them if they don't have an orgasm every time. There's a huge amount of pressure on women to fake orgasms so they don't feel like freaks.

I agree that women should vocalise their desires and needs and be honest with their sexual partners in the interest of their own sexual pleasure, but many women are not at that place yet, and there's nothing wrong with them for not being there yet. Sometimes they really aren't comfortable talking openly with their partners, and it's pressure from the man as well as society contributing to tis feeling of shame. These women are certainly not responsible or accountable for the sexual pleasure of any of their partner's sex partners in the future. It is not a woman's duty to educate a man on sex for the benefit of his future lovers.

Also, who are _you_ to be telling women how to conduct their sex lives, what their "feminist duty" is? We get enough of that shit from non-feminists, men, the media, and pro-lifers who think that they have the right to tell women what to do with their bodies.

You know what's anti-feminist? This post. I'm surprised this was published here at all.

As a couple of other people have mentioned, it's not obvious that most of the discrepancy comes in the form of faked orgasm. Two more sources come immediately to mind: for one thing, men might inexpertly attribute orgasm, either through cluelessness or through its being genuinely hard to tell; for another, depending on the data collection methodology used, it wouldn't be hard to believe that men might exaggerate their own records of inducing orgasm through sex.

Courtney, I love you for declaring it our feminist duty to make the world a more orgasmic place. You are wonderful!

I have to agree with a few of the above commenters: I think it might not be so much that women are faking it, but that men think they're better than they are. I've totally had guys think I "got there" when I hadn't, and I would actually set the record straight.

That might come from their ego, or maybe from watching too much porn-- the woman gasping and moaning and writhing no matter what the dude is doing, and then he and the watcher can delude themselves into thinking the actress had actually enjoyed it. Not that women in real life have to have orgasms to enjoy sex, but nobody will argue that it helps. :)

I don't fake it. And if I'm not enjoying something, I say something. I think it's sad that not only do a lot of women feel the need to fake it, but some women are afraid to react at all, and will lie nearly motionless through pleasure due to embarrassment (I've heard a lot of stories like this).

I do agree though, that an orgasm is not the end-all, be-all of sexual experiences. I've had plenty of nice ones where I didn't "finish", but still enjoyed myself. There's so much variation in the day to day and the tiniest thing can through you off and then, suddenly, you can't come. It's not always someone's "fault".

BUT- I feel bad for women who don't get to enjoy sex regularly at all. These women need to take the time to learn what works for them and then build up the courage to ask for it. Sex is give and take, so if you have a partner that is never willing to give...get a new one!

As a man, I think some of you miss the point. If a woman fakes an orgasm, that doesn't help us improve our sex skills at all. In fact, it probably reinforces bad habits. If you are a terrible painter but your girlfriend lies to you and says your work is AMAZING, you aren't going to try and improve. Same with sex.

Every woman receives/experiences pleasure in a different way, so it's not like we are psychic enough to know exactly what works for you. Some women come from just penetration, others need a mix, others just want oral, etc. But if a woman doesn't explain what she wants and what feels good, how are we supposed to know? What worked wonders for one girl might be a disaster with the next. I'm always frustrated the most when a woman expects me to know what she wants without actually telling me what she wants -- and faking pleasure or faking an orgasm is obviously not the way to go.

Also, it is a good sign when these guys get disappointed over not giving you an orgasm. Obviously we want to make you happy, it's a huge turn-on and very sexy. Instead of being worried about hurting his feelings, you should channel his desire to please you into ACTUALLY PLEASING YOU. If you are empowered enough to hook up with guy, be empowered enough to say touch me here, do this like that, whatever.

Yeah, also color me as finding this post a little judgey. No, I never faked, but if you ask my ex-boyfriends, they probably think I had orgasms with them. I had approximately two, with one of them. None with the others. And women are not interchangeable fuck-holes, so their inability to get me off didn't have to do with their other partners. I bet they all had other partners who had reached a genuine climax, instead of just being vocal like I always am, because the men were good in bed.

But why oh why didn't I engage in my 'feminist duty' and tell them and fix the problem? For all kinds of reasons that are none of anyone's damn business. The one I will disclose, which should give you pause, was that at the time, I was preorgasmic even going solo. That's right, all the fun stuff I did on my own time, including with toys and vibrators was well, fun, but it didn't end in an orgasm. So what was I supposed to do--say 'yo, I'm not having an orgasm, could you help with that, p.s. I have no idea how to have one?'

Oh, and BTW? Others can overshare as well, if they want, but the way my body moves during climax--inimitable. The whole involuntary vaginal contractions and/or shaking that originiates from the clit happens when I orgasm and only when.

Disclosing this, even here, has been so fucking embarrassing that I came up with a new screen name. But wtf on this post.

And existenz, you're right, of course communication is good, but not all guys react the same way to learning you aren't coming. Some of them fucking pout. And then they don't want to have sex because they feel inadequate. I know this because I do always tell partners the truth, and one asked me once if I had climaxed on a specific occasion, and I told the truth, and he pouted.

Guess what--men don't always climax--am I a jerk for not always asking? And yeah, sometimes it is obvious but other times (condom and 5th time having sex) it is a little less so.

Oh, and would we blame men for women being 'bad in bed'? Like, gee, none of the other men who slept with her trained her up. Please.

I don't come that often during nonsolo sex because 1. sometimes it takes much more time and effort than even I'm willing to put out, and 2. my head gets in the way. All I need it one random thought about "did I turn the oven off?" or something like that, and it can take me permanently off-course. So, like some of the other posters said before me, the Big O isn't the primary goal I have during sex, because the rest is usually pleasurable enough to be worth it.

For me, the focus on coming/not coming is stressful enough to turn me away from having sex at all. This is why I've always hated when partners ask "did you come?" or whisper "come for me, baby" during the act. This is the reason why I faked way back in my early days. Seriously, if having orgasms is my feminist duty, that's enough pressure for me to never have one again!

"Seriously, if having orgasms is my feminist duty, that's enough pressure for me to never have one again."

Yes, this. It seems ridiculous that you are saying we MUST have orgasms or we're not feminists. NOT EVERYONE CAN EASILY ORGASM.

Sometimes I just want to have sex, and not have to worry about if I'm going to orgasm or not. Orgasms don't just come from nowhere; they take concentration. Sometimes that concentration is worth it, sometimes the concentration needed is less (generally during certain times of the month, or if I'm particularly randy, or have had just enough alcohol, or if we're doing something new and exciting), and sometimes it's not (if I'm tired, had a long day, am stressed, or just want to get fucked without having to worry about orgasming).

lotus seed, I SO HEAR YOU. "Please come for me!" "Come for me baby!" "Did you come?" DO NOT SAY STUFF LIKE THAT, MEN. It doesn't work like that. You can't say, "COME!" and we just come, jeez.

Anonymouse,
I have to agree. I have always thought: it is your obligation to be in charge of your own orgasm. Men understand that and act on it. I can't be responsible for your pleasure. Of course, I will help (and I want to help). But don't expect me to "give" you orgasms (as someone has put it).

That may sound selfish, but that is a lesson women should learn.

Women who fake it gain no sympathy from me, because I can't help them if they are deceptive. Women who know what they want should act on it. They should vocalize what they want. And, if an orgasm is not a be-all and end-all for you, that is great too.

But, for those who blame men for not understanding female anatomy (and I think I understand it pretty well), exactly how much time did you spend trying to understand male anatomy? What does it take, 5 seconds to figure it out? And, believe me, if you did not understand how it worked, I bet a man would be happy to show you, because 1) he knows; and 2) he understands that his pleasure is ultimately up to him.

That should be the moral (for both sexes): be generous with your partner, but take responsibility for your own pleasure.

-Rant Completed-

-Jut

And Anonymouse is right -- many men, when you tell them you didn't come or have issues coming, take it as a personal insult. They don't really care about our feelings, but rather THEIR feelings and how are not coming effects THEM. They pout, they think something is wrong with us, they get angry. It happens even with the more progressive men I've slept with.

I'm glad so many have been able to articulate what I didn't like about this post. I read it before there were any comments and had to go do something else for awhile because I just didn't like it but couldn't figure out why.

Which, it strikes me, could be a reason that women seem to (like others, I'm not convinced that that's the whole story on those statistics) fake orgasm - maybe they just don't know what they want. How can you tell someone what you want if you don't know?

Also, add my vote to "sex isn't always about orgasms." I'm one of those women who orgasms very easily most of the time, but even I have my days when things just aren't working or it takes a very specific action to make it happen. Guys do that too, in my experience, in spite of the myth of how guys are always ready to come at a moment's notice. I've also not been shy about making sure the person I'm with knows what I want, but like I said, sometimes I just don't know what I want! (That's actually one of my favorite things sexually, not having anything specific in mind and getting to just explore.)

I think we all need to give each other a break, no matter what gender we are, and stop putting so much pressure on each other about a very small part of the sexual experience.

Also, the line of logic that says one woman's actions with a guy determine how that guy treats all subsequent women sounds like the shitty logic of an ex-fling of mine who was obsessed with porn and called me evil for simply breaking off the relationship. That's not the kind of logic I like to see on a feminist site.

The comments here are great and thought-provoking as always. They keep reminding me about respecting another's agency while still being "generous" to use Jut Gory's term.

Marilove - you raise a good point. I'm likely venturing into Modern Jackass territory here, but it seems like those progressive men still haven't really addressed those fundamental struggles with masculinity--that of the man rescuing, being paternalistic (benevolent patriarch?), etc. And when they can't rescue, they slide into a mentality of victim-hood and sulk. Still tying their identity as men with their sexual prowess, it seems. It is grand to help and be generous, and if someone refuses it, be grown-up enough to not take it personally.

Just to chuck in two cents here...

To those saying men should "read a manual" to find out where your pleasure centers are....

No.

It's YOUR orgasm. YOU be responsible for it. YOU ask for what you want. If you don't, how dare you blame us for not knowing.

We're not psychic. If you don't say "Do this, I like this" or "Don't do that there, do it here", we're not going to know.

It's not our responsibility to "figure out" what you like or do not. It's your responsibility to tell us.

Offloading the blame for your lack of orgasm onto someone else's shoulders is insulting, and flat out wrong.

Moving on:

Feeling "entitled" to an orgasm caused by another person is a problem.

It's not feminist to feel entitled to that. It's just sexist.

Much like it's wrong for men to feel entitled to ready access to women to make him orgasm, it's wrong for the inverse.

Assuming you "deserve" an orgasm given to you by someone else isn't the right way to go about it.

You're entitled to have them by yourself, you deserve them when you have them by yourself.

When you mix in the idea of another person, you're no longer entitled.

You have one because that person is willing to give you one, or attempt to. Not because you deserve it, or they owe it to you.

Really, this post sounds rather anti-feminist to me.

A good way to judge if what you're writing may be sexist, is to see if you'd want to see such a post written from the opposite perspective.

Would you be pleased to see a post detailing that the last woman a man had was "a poor fool" who "didn't know what she was doing", and how her past partners should have "trained her better"?

I bet not.

The reason men get upset when you don't orgasm, when we're trying to give you one, isn't an issue of ego. It's because we want you to have one so that YOU come away from the encounter having enjoyed it as much as us.

It's not the stereotypical sexist attitude you throw, where it's because you think we want to be "big awesome man that makes girls come".

And all this is coming from a male who doesn't even like sex.

If I can figure this out, it can't be that difficult for those of you who actually enjoy sex and have it regularly.

This reminds me of a Sex and the City episode where Miranda is dating a guy who she always fakes with. Then she finally tells him and he thinks there's something wrong with her "but all the other women I've been with orgasm!" or so he thought.

SatC is my anti-feminist guilty pleasure......

I had an orgasm for the first time when I was 11 or so. So I've known what works for a long time. Straight penetration has never made me come, so I always insist on positions where I can play with my clit at the same time. Past boyfriends or hook-ups generally gave up when it came to making me orgasm during sex, because they didn't always like the positions I do, and would just figure "I'll finger her afterwards", but then he's usually too exhausted to do that.....
My current boyfriend, however, is pretty determined, however. He likes my favorite positions, and he's taught me a few new ones, and if he does accidentally come before me, he always finishes me off.

I've never faked an orgasm. Some guys pout, some roll over and go to sleep without even asking me if I want some help finishing myself off....

It's not the "not getting off" part--it's the "pretending to get off" part that bothers me. If you like all the other stuff, then by all means act like you love what's actually going on (which, come to think of it, might look like you're getting off). If you don't feel like having an orgasm, then don't pretend you're having one. It seems to me that pretending would take the fun out of it.

I believe that both men and women need to be in control of their own sexuality and really figures what feels good to them as individuals. I mean the guys who are just banging away to get to the climax are really missing out on a whole lot too!

I have been having sex with the same partner for 14 years. He was less experienced than I was when we started our relationship. But, his previous girlfriend had taught him well and he said that he appreciated how much her learned from her about pleasing women. He still keeps in touch with her and when I met her for the first time last year, I said "thank you." Men need to learn from the women they are with and we need to learn from our men. It will be different for each person, but at least we should know the basics. My partner and I have the trust and love to teach each other and to say "ohh well" when things don't work that we try. I think that is what you really get from a long term sexual relationship. Yeah sometimes it is boring, but we also have the trust to try some really freaky stuff.

However, sometimes I do "exaggerate" vocally if I know I am not going to climax, but he is. Part of the pleasure for him is hearing that I am feeling good. I am still having a good time and feeling good, so I don't consider it "faking it."

Black Thirteen,

The reason men get upset when you don't orgasm, when we're trying to give you one, isn't an issue of ego. It's because we want you to have one so that YOU come away from the encounter having enjoyed it as much as us.

Um, not always. The ex I've been mentioning flat out told me that it hurt his ego and feelings that I wasn't orgasming. I'm not putting any words in his mouth. And then he flat-out refused to keep having oral sex because his ego couldn't take it. Again, his own words. If he was really wanting me to enjoy the encounter, he wouldn't have completely removed oral sex from the table against my protests - which in all honesty, was even worse than not being able to orgasm.

Unless the woman's pouting about not having one, I doubt that's the reason for the man pouting about it.

On the flip side, I completely agree with you that I'm responsible for my own orgasms, and if I can't voice it, there's no way the guy will be able to figure it out. Telling someone to "read a manual" doesn't tell a guy what THAT particular woman wants - and we're all different. Which is why I'm trying to figure my way out of the trap I keep landing in, and pouters like my ex just do NOT help me feel confident in reclaiming my orgasms. (On the plus side, as I get older I've gotten better with not fearing I'll scare guys off if I assert myself OUTSIDE of the bedroom, now I just need to end my celibacy someday and try to take that inside the bedroom, too)

alixana: Even still, it keeps being stressed here that it's ONLY because of some "macho man" complex.

Moving on from that, you really can't complain if he refused to do a sexual act with you, no matter what reason. If a woman can say no to any act, for any reason, then you have to accept that men have the autonomy and ability to do the same.

The fact that you protested the lack of oral, is kinda pushing towards a bit of rape. No is no, for both sexes.

If he didn't want to give it, you don't really have a right to demand or protest that choice.

For instance, I refuse to give cunnilingus. Period. Full stop. That's my choice, and my right to say so. No one has the right to cajole, harass, or try to pressure me into changing that stance.

Moving on...

Correct, there's no "manual". For a movement that is big on saying how "woman" is not a behavioural descriptor, this is a pretty big reverse on that. No two women are alike. They'll enoy different things.

To be blunt, woman A might like to be on top, be in control, and do a lot of hard biting of her partner.

Woman B might like to have sex from a sitting up position, with lots of kissing.

My point is, there's no real "training", and any attempt to hint at that is ridiculous.

The only one directly responsible for your current orgasm, or lack thereof, is you. Not him, not his past partners, just you. YOU have to say what it is you want, and ask if he'd mind doing it. Preferably BEFORE sex. Asking during tends to make us feel obligated and guilty, even if it's something we really don't want to do.

I also resent this continuous use of phrases like "His last girlfriend taught him well", "He needs to be better trained", "He was trained well". That's not something anyone would want to hear applied to a woman, so don't apply them to a man.

Lots of crap like that is why I don't like sex, and don't do it anymore.

"The fact that you protested the lack of oral, is kinda pushing towards a bit of rape. No is no, for both sexes."

Oh, I think it depends, BlackThirteen. I got the impression that HE thought hewas entitled to get a blow job, but he certainly didn't have to go down on her. A LOT of men are like that.

The only number in that passage that really surprised me was only 44% of men had orgasms in the hookup. WTF? It makes me wonder what he means by "hook up", a cup of coffee together? Could that many women pass out or throw the guy out before he finishes? It would be extremely rare for a guy to be so drunk he couldn't finish without being too drunk to get it up in the first place. If you include second rounds during the sessions I guess you could get closer to the number cited but I wouldn't guess it was asked that way.

The advantage side of the coin of male sexuality is that it is easier for men to come. The disadvantage side is that it is easier for men to come before they or their partners want them to. Damned inconvenient sometimes. I would guess that would contribute to the low orgasm numbers for women on hookups. Subsequent date sex has always been better (for both of us) than the first time. For those ONS I had which were great I wonder how great it would have been had the relationship continued.

On the other hand, the 44% number for men seems so suspicious to me that I don't trust the rest of the numbers.

The only number in that passage that really surprised me was only 44% of men had orgasms in the hookup. WTF? It makes me wonder what he means by "hook up", a cup of coffee together? Could that many women pass out or throw the guy out before he finishes? It would be extremely rare for a guy to be so drunk he couldn't finish without being too drunk to get it up in the first place. If you include second rounds during the sessions I guess you could get closer to the number cited but I wouldn't guess it was asked that way.

The advantage side of the coin of male sexuality is that it is easier for men to come than for women. The disadvantage side is that it is easier for men to come before they or their women partners want them to. Damned inconvenient sometimes. I would guess that would contribute to the low orgasm numbers for women on hookups. Subsequent date sex has always been better (for both of us) than the first time. For those ONS I had which were great I wonder how great it would have been had the relationship continued.

On the other hand, the 44% number for men seems so suspicious to me that I don't trust the rest of the numbers.

marilove:

Well, there's the rub.

Placing conditions on sex acts is still tantamount to coercion, as far as I'm concerned.

If a woman wants to go down on a guy, but he doesn't want to perform the inverse, is it egalitarian or fair to make a conditional demand?

Would you say that "No" "depends" if it came to a woman's autonomy?

If a man refused cunnilingus unless she blew him?

Like I said, if one of my partners wanted to go down on me, fine, but that doesn't mean you're getting a "reward" for it.

Oh good grief, if you're going to conflate me telling my ex that we didn't have to stop having oral sex because I wasn't orgasming and that it didn't mean I wasn't enjoying it with RAPE, you're really reaching there.

@black thirteen:

The issue I have with a guy who won't "go down", and what I think is being mentioned a lot here, is while the guy says, "eww dirty no, not putting my mouth on that!", he then turns and demands that I put my mouth on his parts. (At least that's been in my experience.)
If I am expected/whined at to do something I find physically uncomfortable for the sake of giving pleasure to another person, reciprocity is greatly appreciated.

alixana:

My point is, if someone says they don't want to do something sexual with you, for any reason, that's their right. If a woman doesn't want to give head, her partner has no right to demand and cajole her for it. Same goes for the inverse. If he doesn't want to go down on you, then that's his right.

I'm saying, that if you get what you want by demanding, pestering, or repeated requests, it's pretty much rape. For either sex.

@cordi

Appreciated, sure. Expected, demanded, required, not so much.

I have more than a few reasons for not doing it, and no amount of asking, begging, pleading or demanding will make me change my mind.

And, protesting someone not doing sexual acts they don't want to do isn't always coercisn. For example, one boyfriend had what Samantha on SaTC referred to as "funky spunk" - it just tasted so horrible, so I always spit. With my next boyfriend, I kept that up and when he commented on it, he asked if I'd be okay with swallowing. I was like, "God, no, I hate that." His response was that it sort of offended him out that someone was calling part of him "gross" -- I thought about that for a minute, strongly emphasized with that feeling because I'd had very similar feelings when guys were all, "Ew, gross" about going down on me. And so from then on I swallowed (and luckily he tasted just fine). Maybe another woman would have been offended, and maybe I'd have been offended with another guy saying that, but we had a good relationship and his protest went over just fine. His protesting the idea I wouldn't swallow wasn't "kinda pushing towards a bit of rape" - not in a million years.

Lots of crap like that is why I don't like sex, and don't do it anymore.

Whenever I hear a guy say he doesn't like cunnilingus, I think good, one more competitor out of the way--I'll take those women who won't go to bed with him anymore. It's rhetorical, of course; I'm not that active. I like to do it because the women I am with like it. It is a wonderful positive feedback loop.

I think the terms teaching, learning, training are all being run together a bit. Good sexual technique is learned, sometimes from just paying attention and sometimes from getting direct feedback, i.e. being taught. Don't get so literal over the use of the term training. It's like a woman who observes her friend's husband doing something nice and considerate---she says her friend has "trained" him well. Could be he just learned to be considerate all on his own.

I have sometimes thought, and even said to a partner, "Whoever taught you how to do that, I thank them." I've also had that said to me and I don't take it as an insult.

I'm saying, that if you get what you want by demanding, pestering, or repeated requests, it's pretty much rape. For either sex.

I'd like to point out you're the only one talking about "demanding, pestering, or repeated requests" here.

@Black Thirteen:

Why should I have to give a running commentary? Can't he pay attention or better yet, ask if I like it? Why do I have to come up with all the suggestions? Can't he find a few things to try and ask if I'm interested?

@marilove and lotus seed:
"Come for me baby!'
Dude, I'm coming for me, not you.

for the academic nerds out there, there is a great research article by Celia Roberts, et. al., called "Faking It: The Story of Ohh!" that looks at why women feel so much pressure to be passive about their sexual pleasure/orgasms, and why men often neglect their partner's pleasure/orgasms- if I recall it doesn't really talk about same-sex partnerings, but otherwise it's pretty groovy.

wow. add my sympathy to that of middleageliberal for Black Thirteen. your experience must have been pretty bad to be so averse to even the tamest sex acts (oral).

but OT, i enjoy being responsible for my own pleasure, and i think it's a feminist belief/goal to empower women to get in touch with their unique sexualities and be upfront about them with partners.

This thread is, in places, like a bad game of telephone. IMO, Courtney wasn't trying to come off as judgmental; she was trying to encourage women to get what they need and what satisfies them. She threw in the "duty" business to make it sound official and the "train him for the next woman" to give you a feeling of sisterhood with other women as a motivating force to get what you need. If you are satisfied in bed, then she's not talking to you. If you need that extra push to get you to stand up for your pleasure, that's what she's providing.

@ BlackThirteen:

I have to add to the conversation; it's one thing to not want to perform a sexual act for any personal reason, and no, you don't have to give a reason for it (although I wouldn't maintain an exclusive/serious relationship with someone if they didn't feel they could be open with me). HOWEVER; this guy was clearly using the absence of that sex act as a punishment to her for 'making him feel bad'. It was clearly retribution, not some purely intentioned reason. I've had guys try to pull similar stunts of using some part of sex or absence of as 'punishment' for something. I would never do that to another human being, nonetheless someone I was in a committed relationship with. I would drop a guy who thought it was OK to do something like that to me at the drop of a dime! And actually, since he seems to be using sex as a form of power, I would say THAT is closer to rape than asking that he not stop performing oral. That analysis was one of the most far reached comparisons I've ever read on here.

It basically sounded like this to me: girl not having orgasm, boy pissed and refuses to perform anymore. girl tries to say, no, I'm OK with not having an orgasm, please don't stop performing. Boy says, too bad. So, he's basically taking the ownership of the orgasm away from her. The orgasm is supposed to be for her pleasure. Not his. He has no right to be hurt or pissed that she isn't climaxing. Maybe initially hurt, before he asks if it has to do with him; at which point she can so no (and then he needs to drop the whole BS about being 'hurt') or she says, well we can work on it by doing this...etc. The presence or absence of her orgasm is NOTHING that is offending or offensive, and he has no right to 'punish' her for it.

I think too often men view sex, particularly one night stands, as a competition or battle. Coercion, "breaching the gates", "wearing down resistance", etc. are all common terms. When it comes to orgasm, it's equivalent to taking the proverbial flag... and while there's been an expansion in the attitudes over the years (instead of "I'm going to orgasm and I don't care whether you do", it's "I'm going to orgasm, and you're going to also") as era4allNOW said, it becomes about ownership and dominance.

How to change this? I don't know. Some people seem to view sex and relationships in general this way with two opposing sides, while others view them as a symphony with two musicians or novel with two authors.
I can't remember my thinking ever changing on it, so my impression is that it's something that gets formed really early.

era4allNOW, yes, thank you, sometimes it's hard for me to explain what's just so WRONG about a situation when I'm too close to it. And hence he turned MY orgasm into something all about HIM, which it is just NOT.

@middleageliberal

Shrug. It never did all that much for me when I did engage it. I'm not missing anything by not having it.

I get more enjoyment out of a good movie or entertaining videogame, than I do from an hour-long roll in the hay.

I get literal over the term training for the same reasons feminists get literal over terms applied to women. Language has power, intentionally or otherwise.

@FruminousB

Because your orgasms are not his responsibility. You're responsible for ensuring you have one. If you want something, ask for it. Expecting him to figure it out, and then getting pissed because he's not psychic isn't very conducive to good sex.

@katie80andstuff

Something about your phrasing bothers me in the back of the mind, but I can't place why.

Aside from that, I'll say I don't perform oral because I don't like doing it. For multiple reasons. As for actual sex, I don't get anything out of it, so I don't bother with it.

@era4allNOW

Again, it doesn't matter why he doesn't want to. Period. I've read repeated feminist statements that a woman can refuse an act of sex, for any reason she wants, period, full stop, no debate or discussion allowed or required.

So, in effect, it doesn't matter why he's refusing it. The point is, that he's refusing it. You want it, he doesn't want to give it.

Would you say that a woman refusing sex to a man that wanted it was her "controlling him through sex", or her not wanting to do it?

If she's not having an orgasm, he's not "taking ownership of the orgasm away from her".

He's still asserting autonomy. Remember, for stuff like this especially, read it from the inverse perspective. Would you talk about a woman the way you talk about a man? That the woman refusing sex was in the wrong? I don't think you would.

Point is, you own your own orgasm. You can go have one by yourself. You don't own the ability or power to have an orgasm from someone else. They own that. They control if you have an orgasm from someone other than yourself. If you want them to do an act on you, it has to be on their terms, period. It's not up to you in that sense. You can ask them to, and if they don't want to, well, you're SOL.

BlackThirteen,

You are ignoring the level of involvement of the two people being discussed. People in long-term relationships negotiate sex all the time. All you have to do is read a few savage love editions (a very popular, very widely influential) sex advice column, and you'll usually see a guy asking his girlfriend (as opposed to vice versa) if they can have sex more often. That is, it seems to be men in our culture who feel most comfortable asking for things sexually, and being unhappy (visibly) when they don't get what they want.

"The fact that you protested the lack of oral, is kinda pushing towards a bit of rape."
Men protest lack of oral /all the time/. If that was the definition of rape, I think the majority of women have been raped.

Also, in this particular relationship, /he/ was guilt-tripping /her/ about not having an orgasm. There's a difference between simply refusing something a partner asks for, for whatever reason, and refusing and then guilt-tripping them for having their own desires but not meeting a certain physical standard. That also is wrong.

"YOU have to say what it is you want, and ask if he'd mind doing it. Preferably BEFORE sex. Asking during tends to make us feel obligated and guilty, even if it's something we really don't want to do."

Well, it's a heck of a lot easier to describe or show what you want /during/ sex, in many instances.
And once again, most men have /no problem/ telling a partner what they want during sex.

"Point is, you own your own orgasm. You can go have one by yourself. You don't own the ability or power to have an orgasm from someone else. They own that. They control if you have an orgasm from someone other than yourself. If you want them to do an act on you, it has to be on their terms, period. It's not up to you in that sense. You can ask them to, and if they don't want to, well, you're SOL."

I don't think anyone here was talking about forcing guys to give them orgasms. I think they were talking about what you bring up in your last sentence, that is asking, directly, for what they want. I think /both people/ engaging in sex together should have some sort of basic attraction and care enough about each other to want to help the other person have an enjoyable experience. So I disagree with you, I /do not/ think sex should be a selfish act, where everyone is focused on their own orgasm and not concerned about the other person.

However, if you've had bad enough experiences with women to put you off sex, I hate to think what psychological state you would be in if you had to have sex with the not uncommon, sexually clueless man.

I get literal over the term training for the same reasons feminists get literal over terms applied to women. Language has power, intentionally or otherwise.

It's fine not to like sex. Some people don't care about wine or fine dining. I think people who don't appreciate these things are missing out on great pleasures. I guess it's like smoking pot. I used to do it but when I stopped enjoying it I stopped smoking it. A pothead can't very well tell me I don't know what it feels like. Unlike pot, upscale wine and food, though, good sex can be free and can enhance a relationship with another person.

The only number in that passage that really surprised me was only 44% of men had orgasms in the hookup. WTF? It makes me wonder what he means by "hook up", a cup of coffee together?

I'm (a man and) willing to believe that number. Looking over my own history, I think that I had orgasms about half of the time, the first time I had sex with a partner.

It's my feminist duty to seek pleasure and teach men about sex? OK, I'll get right on that. I'm sure my social anxiety disorder and protracted virginity will cooperate just fine.

And add me to the list of people who may be unable to orgasm. Or maybe I can. I don't know what the hell it's like, maybe I've been having them all along.

BlackThirteen, you're missing a very important aspect that for some reason, everyone else seems to be able to understand. I can understand not wanting to have sex because you're angry at your partner, but using sex, or a lack of sex, as punishment is not right; it's immature and damaging to the relationship. It purposefully throws off the power balance, and avoids actions that might actually improve the situation in favor of selfish pouting. Immature adults will withhold sex because they're angry; mature adults will actually deal with the anger.

I've known quite a few non-feminist women who said, "He hurt my feelings/didn't take out the garbage/forgot the kids' recital/whatever so he's not getting any sex from me until he makes it right." And we've all heard the stories about women who withheld sex because they were angry. I don't agree with women doing that, and I don't agree with men doing it either, as the man in alixana's experience seems to have.

@ a.k.a. Ninapendamaishi

Perhaps, but as has been said numerous times "marriage is not consent". Neither is a long term relationship. Just because you're "together", doesn't mean "no" has less impact than it should.

Your second point, well, shouldn't that indicate to you that women need to step up and ask for what they want more often?

I've known a lot of women in my life. The stereotype of "women don't really want sex/aren't all that sexual" is largely bullshit.

So, if men are asking more than women, that means women need to ask more.

Third, I was pointing that "protest" sounded a lot like something that would lead to "demand", or further. Which when someone does something they don't want to, and only do it because you "wore them down", that pretty much IS rape.

Also, what I mean by before, is the whole "I'd like you to do (something you've never done)". It's better to ask that before trying it. When it's more "no, move your hand here, do it this way instead", that's better for during.

I don't know why you keep stressing that men have no problem asking for what they want. The point is, women aren't asking for what they want, apparently. Especially judging by a lot of the attitudes here. Instead, they're expecting men to be psychic and KNOW what they want, or be "trained" by someone else to know.

Finally, I was responding to the prevailing attitude that men should "just know" what to do, or that *we* should be the ones asking women what they like. That's not really how it works. If you want to have an orgasm, you're responsible for asking what will cause it. Your partner isn't responsible for asking you what you want.

As to your last point, I think I should probably take a bit of umbrage at that. Are you implying I'm somehow "bad" or "damaged" because I don't find an interest in sex? I don't really care for that attitude.

I also don't like the whole concept of the "sexually clueless man". That's an unfair thing to dump off on men. Men are expected to be virtuosos in bed, and work wondrous magic on women, and it places an unfair burden on them.

You always hear about men being "good" or "bad" in bed. Ever occur to you why you don't hear that about women very often? A woman can get away with putting the bare minimum into sex, because there's almost no effort involved in making a man orgasm. I know, because I am one. Repetitive friction is about all it takes, and we have a lot of generally equally sensitive surface area. There's no magic button, certain thing, etcetera.

Men can't get away with the bare minimum effort. Topics like this ensue when they try to.

This whole survey seems screwed up to begin with - I would love to see the internals on it to see how they phrased the questions. Something about it seems just off to me, and not necessarily because of the numbers alone.

Let me put it this way: if you ask most men I know if they had an orgasm during a 'hookup' it would likely have to involve sex of some sort or other. Break that down into how often that even happens -- contrary to most guy's fantasies, it's probably not the majority of the time. So something sort'a stinks here, unless the kids are having a load more sex than I or my peers did at their age. Possible, but not too likely -- I've seen no evidence that sexual activity has changed all that much (though how often people talk about it and under what terms they do so has).

Controlling for what people thought should lead to orgasm might alter the ratios of men to women who reported it for a given activity-set. I don't see anything from the post that breaks it down so finely. That would clear things up tremendously.

Also, seeing that survey made me wonder if I am I the only (male) person in the world who

a) felt he had to explore, or ask a little about what was making women I have 'hooked up' with feel good (assuming it even got that far)? I mean, I am pretty talented in a lot of ways (I write pretty well and like to think I can play a mean Scrabble) but mind-reader is not one of the things I can do. So I feel like I have to ask. And I would never expect any woman to magically know what feels good to me.

Awkward moments? Sometimes. But "X is good for me" seems simpler and nicer than "ouch what the hell are you doing?" Different strokes, people. :-)

b) thinks that the simplest way to find out whether orgasm is important to a woman I am with is, to just ask? Like "is it important to you that you reach orgasm during (insert activity here). If not, ok, or if so, ok, but tell me how I can make this best work for you?"

c) has the verbal ability (in English) to ask if whatever activity was okay? If the answer is "no orgasm but it was fun anyway" I can say "Good." and leave it at that. Honestly, I haven't ever 'pouted' if a woman told me she didn't. I always found it a lot sexier if someone said they were having fun. That is the goal, right? A little laughter and a little fun?

I mean, who the heck is everyone having sex with here? Jeebus, most of the guys I know might shoot for a one night stand but they rarely got it (which is why surveys like this are always suspect to me) and more often than not it seems that 'hooking up' didn't get far enough for issues like oral/not oral to come up. Maybe we were all just too nerdy.

@MiddleageLiberal

Well, exactly. You can't tell me I don't know what it feels like, or I don't know what I'm missing, or whatnot.

@wax_ghost

Regardless, it's still anyone's right to "withhold" sex for any reason. No one has to have it if they don't want to, no matter why.

Great topic. And more involved then I expected.

@ blackthirteen

"Regardless, it's still anyone's right to "withhold" sex for any reason. No one has to have it if they don't want to, no matter why."

Of course. This is entirely true. But repeated requests to do something (for example, perform oral sex) in the context of a relationship do not take away the "right to 'withhold' sex for any reason". They simply express displeasure with that choice.

And personally, I think women who withhold oral sex, but expect to receive it, are just as reprehensible as their male equivalents.

One more thing: to return to the original topic of the post, like other women here I personally am "pre-orgasmic". I would never fake an orgasm, but I might not loudly exclaim at the end of sex that I didn't have one, and sometimes the inexperienced have gotten the wrong idea. But I don't like pointing it out, because a) it's not their fault, and b) I don't want them to feel guilty about their own orgasm, and c) its upsetting to talk about. So I agree that the statistic doesn't necessarily indicate that women are overwhelmingly faking it.

And the feminist rhetoric about "claiming your orgasm", while encouraging to some women, can also be insensitive to those for whom it's just not happening. It also privileges one specific part of the sexual experience over others that can be rewarding in their own right.

I don't think this is anything that hasn't been said before, but I wanted to chime in.

@capillary

And also fall under attempts at coercion. Getting what you want through repeated requests is equivalent to rape.

Getting what you want through repeated requests is equivalent to rape.

...

Ok, look. I see what point you're making, Black Thirteen. But you cannot be taken seriously while hyperbolizing in this way.

While getting sex by asking multiple times for it may be morally problematic, it is no more equivalent to rape than do I rob from someone by virtue of asking him repeatedly for money.

To say otherwise is grossly to trivialize the travesty that is rape.

Thanks for this post.

I have only faked it a few times when I was 15 with my first sex partner. I only faked it because I thought I was gonna come, and then it ended up not happening, and I faked it so that it wouldn't disrupt the flow of our sex. Yeah it was retarded, but I also wasn't very experienced with having an orgasm with other people.

Once I started getting older and having more orgasms with my partners, I know it had to do with my confidence and the fact that I deserved to have an orgasm, no matter how I achieved it. (Whether I played with myself to help it or had my partner do it with his hands, or whatever.)

Before my feminist epiphany I thought it was weird or maybe selfish to try to orgasm while we had sex. But around (17ish) I realized that I am going to start taking control of my orgasms. I was empowered and my sex life improved because of it.

If all women would embrace feminism and taking control of their orgasms and not feeling guilty for it, that stat would be much more even among men and women.

On a side note, not to say orgasms aren't important, but the sex that I had where I didn't have an orgasm each time was not a whole lot better than the sex with orgasm. It definitely depends on the partner and the sexual chemistry. So I do understand if orgasm isn't all-important to all women.

I just hope that the women who do in fact want an orgasm, goes for what she wants.

"Finally, I was responding to the prevailing attitude that men should "just know" what to do, or that *we* should be the ones asking women what they like. That's not really how it works. If you want to have an orgasm, you're responsible for asking what will cause it. Your partner isn't responsible for asking you what you want."

Black Thirtenn, /both/ partners should be asking each other for some amount of feedback. Both partners should be experimenting sometime. Frequently, both these things happen.

"You always hear about men being "good" or "bad" in bed. Ever occur to you why you don't hear that about women very often? "

Actually, I /do/ hear that about women very often.

@MiddleageLiberal

Well, exactly. You can't tell me I don't know what it feels like, or I don't know what I'm missing, or whatnot.

couple of things: I do think it inappropriate to blame women for not training men in bed.

But all of the women who are saying they are having fun in bed when they do not climax make me a little nervous. I used to think that way before I met my current partner, but the "fun" was really in getting positive feedback from the patriarchy - what we've all been trained to crave. Of course, I can never know how much fun others are having or not having. I don't want to accuse anyone of lying to themselves. I just know that I did in the past, and I'm still learning to actually enjoy the sex itself and not the approval from the man w/ whom I'm doing it. That is some deep patriarchal training, and I understand why some feminists believe that learning to expect pleasure is important in order to undo that training.

Yet, posters are right that every body is different and pleasures are different too.

All that said, I think we have miles to go before we sleep. The real sexual revolution has barely begun and who knows how it might proceed.

"While getting sex by asking multiple times for it may be morally problematic, it is no more equivalent to rape than do I rob from someone by virtue of asking him repeatedly for money.

To say otherwise is grossly to trivialize the travesty that is rape."

Yes. This.

"Actually, I /do/ hear [the bad in bed complaint] about women very often."

Me too. "She just lay there like a starfish" and "She had hangups about everything except PIV" are two of the complaints I've heard.

@JP Ichi

I have to call BS on you, sorry.

I've read numerous feminist articles and blogs and other things that clearly state: Sex through repeated nagging/coercive language = rape. If you said no the first time, and only said yes after repeated requests and attempts to "wear you down", you still didn't want to do it.

Ergo, rape.

You're just sort of making it sound like "no big deal", because the attitude was more talking about men, than women.

I find that "morally problematic".

@a.k.a. Ninapendamaishi

Perhaps, but really, men don't need to ask. One might, because he wants to try something new, or a new way to have an orgasm, but, realistically, an orgasm for a male is almost guaranteed. It's not exactly a show of skill if you made a male come. It mostly just shows that you had sexual contact with one.

Secondly, I don't hear that. Ever. I hear lots of women talking about how this or that guy was good or bad in bed. If men based a woman's state of "good" or "bad" (in bed) on whether or not he came, something like nearly every single woman that has had sex with a male would be considered "good" in bed.

Women tend to rate men based on if they came or not, on if he is good or not. By what standard are we expected to rate women? It can't be the same, because like I said, if a male is healthy, not falling-down drunk, not under the influence of drugs, and not taking some form of libido-inhibiting medication, chances are, he's going to orgasm. And it won't even take much effort.

Hell, we're known to have orgasms in our sleep. It doesn't get much easier than that.

@MiddleageLiberal

I could easily say the inverse. If you felt what I felt about not having to deal with sexual relationships, you'd stop having them.

To sum up, I find it rude that you'd assume that my life and attitudes would be magically changed by sex.

That's the same thing as telling someone "You'll think differently when they're YOUR kids!".

Don't tell someone what they'd think in a given situation. Very, very rude. Only *I* can tell you what I think.

@laurylen

A lot of people enjoy sex for the physical and emotional closeness it provides. Those type of people (I know a few) tend to take insult when the entire act is ground down into something as simple as "I came". They enjoy the act for what it is. You sound more like you enjoy it as a means to an end, the end being orgasm.

If you feel you need an orgasm to enjoy sex, you might want to re-evaluate your sex life.

Also, as I stated earlier...women should NOT be taught to "expect" anything in bed. When what you ask/want/expect depends on another person, then you shouldn't be expecting anything, or thinking you "deserve" anything.

Expecting someone to give you something because you feel you deserve it sounds a lot like one of the main problems feminists have with the way the common male approaches sex.

I fail to see how doing exactly what you have a problem with is a good thing.

ok, i definitely see what courtney was trying to do here. she's not saying you have to have an orgasm for good sex. she's saying that if you're faking it, you're doing it for your partner's benefit and you don't have to do that anymore! you'll have much better sex when you can be honest about what feels good and what doesn't, orgasm or not.

but courtney, that was really insensitive to frame it as our "feminist duty" to speak up and never fake it, by extension saying that we're failing other women and being "bad feminists" if we fake it.

i agree that faking it is not good. you shouldn't have to put on a show, and your partner shouldn't want you to (and probably doesn't). i'm with a great guy and i usually do have an orgasm during sex, but i don't fake it if i don't. but i admit that i used to fake it quite a lot with an old boyfriend. the relationship sucked, it was abusive and i had a hard time standing up for myself in all areas of the relationship. he put a lot of pressure on me to have an orgasm and wouldn't want to stop until i did, and so i often just faked it.

i realize that the relationship i just described is not feminist at all, but what i don't need on top of that is you shaming me for not being able to speak up and telling me that i've failed in my feminist duty and let all my sisters down. oh, and the comment about my integrity.. thanks a lot.

i would want every woman to feel empowered enough to be honest about her pleasure or lack thereof, but i would never assume to judge women who don't and blame them for other women's lack of pleasure. good intentions, bad delivery.

laurelyn, stop worrying. there are lots of liberated women who just don't climax all that often, but have hot feminist sex anyway.

and i used to think that every woman could orgasm if she/her partner were good enough/tried the right things but i've seen the exceptions. one of my best friends has lots of hot feminist sex with her hot feminist bf of almost four years but has never had an orgasm. she feels totally comfortable with him and engages in hours of foreplay, has tried pretty much everything imaginable (including a broad range of sex toys) and feels comfortable directing him, but she has yet to climax. she still has an awesome sex life.

"I've read numerous feminist articles and blogs and other things that clearly state: Sex through repeated nagging/coercive language = rape. If you said no the first time, and only said yes after repeated requests and attempts to "wear you down", you still didn't want to do it. Ergo, rape."

If anyone was saying that just pleading -- no implied threats, no obstructing someone's exit, no plying them with drink or drugs, nothing but repeated requests until someone gives their consent, even grudgingly -- is rape, then that person was wrong. Now will you kindly knock it off?

"Also, as I stated earlier...women should NOT be taught to "expect" anything in bed. When what you ask/want/expect depends on another person, then you shouldn't be expecting anything, or thinking you "deserve" anything."

Let's rephrase that, shall we?

"Women should not be taught to 'expect' anything in their relationships. How your partner treats you is their choice, so you have no right to think that you 'deserve' anything."

Bullshit. If your partner neglects or mistreats you, are you just supposed to sit there and go, "Oh well, I shouldn't have expected to be treated as though I'm treasured by this person, and I don't deserve any particular treatment"? Fuck that. You should say, "I do not deserve this treatment from someone who is supposed to love me, and if they do not listen to my needs and reform their behaviour, I'll dump their ass."

EVERYONE, male or female, deserves to be treated as an equal by their partner, in and out of the bedroom. This means that -- gasp! -- sometimes you won't get exactly what you want, because you've decided to attend to their needs. And sometimes they won't get exactly what they want, because they're busy attending to your needs.

If you think that a relationship is all about both partners saying, "I have my needs, and if they mesh with yours, cool, but if they don't, tough," then you're better off by yourself.

That's fine -- some people are best suited for celibacy. But just as someone who's decided that they dislike children should STFU about telling parents how to raise their kids, you should STFU about telling others how to have sex.

"Perhaps, but really, men don't need to ask. One might, because he wants to try something new, or a new way to have an orgasm, but, realistically, an orgasm for a male is almost guaranteed. It's not exactly a show of skill if you made a male come. It mostly just shows that you had sexual contact with one."

This is very telling.

"Hell, we're known to have orgasms in our sleep. It doesn't get much easier than that."
(Women do this too, FYI)

As you'll notice if you actually /read/ the stats in the excerpt, men /do not/ always orgasm from sexual contact. And it absolutely takes work from the partner to get them to an orgasm. And every man prefers different kinds of touch, just like every woman. Sometimes it takes less work to get a man to an orgasm than it would take to get a woman to that point, but even this varies a lot based on the individual. The average amount of time it takes to get a woman to orgasm over a man is something like 15 or 20 min. vs. 10 min., I wanna say I saw in a study somewhere.

Saying it takes "no work" to get a man to orgasm, is one of the many things men commonly say to invalidate the importance of women's sexual pleasure. And women hear this so much, which is why many /do/ feel it's their duty to make sure the man has an orgasm, or else they feel like a failure -meanwhile, they don't always expect an orgasm themselves. Anyway, I found that quote of yours very, very telling. Other people might have more patience for extrapolating all the implications out more clearly.

"And it absolutely takes work from the partner to get them to an orgasm. And every man prefers different kinds of touch, just like every woman. Sometimes it takes less work to get a man to an orgasm than it would take to get a woman to that point, but even this varies a lot based on the individual."

Oh, most definitely. Mr. Shiftercat actually has a lot more trouble achieving orgasm during mutual sex than I do -- sometimes it's him saying, "I don't think I can come this time, but that's okay, it felt really good!"

But just because it takes more work doesn't mean that I just shrug and roll over when I'm done, or tell him to finish the job himself. He spends plenty of time and energy getting me off, so even if my legs (or hands, or jaw) are starting to ache, I'll keep at it, because he's worth the effort.

That kind of effort and consideration, BlackThirteen, is what all lovers, male or female, deserve and should expect from one another. This is not that hard to understand.

@Shiftercat

Rearranging my statement about sex, to make it be about relationships isn't making an equivalent statement.

It's simply not. My point is, you have no right to expect anything in bed, nor are you entitled to anything in bed, nor do you deserve anything.

When it comes to another person providing these things for you, you get them if they want to give them, solely based on their desire to give.

You aren't entitled to someone else's physical affections.

You are entitled to your own, you deserve your own, you should expect your own. When it's someone else, it's callous and rude to expect that they should do something to/for you just because you want it.

Not doing what you want in bed is not "neglecting" or "mistreating" you. If that were the case, someone could use that line to get their partner to do a lot of things they were uncomfortable with.

Attitudes like yours are why some people DO do things they're uncomfortable with. FYI, using guilt to get someone to perform a sex act is a pretty reprehensible tactic.

Though, yes, a relationship IS about "if my needs mesh with yours, good, if not, we should find someone else".

Why would two people that don't mesh form a relationship in the first place? Quite ill-advised, if you ask me.

Just because I no longer have sex does not suddenly make me unqualified to speak about it.

I don't direct films, but I can still critique a director's work.

@a.k.a. Ninapendamaishi

How is it telling? It is easy for a man to orgasm.

Women might orgasm in their sleep as well, but you must admit, it's more common for men.

Yes, I read the stats. They were also about "hook ups", which, frankly, usually occur under the influence of alcohol. Which is one of the things I stated previously. When a man is rather drunk, it becomes more difficult to orgasm. If a man is healthy, sober, and not taking any medications that have an effect of lowering his libido, chances are, he'll orgasm, and it won't take a lot of work.

This, I'm addressing directly:

Saying it takes "no work" to get a man to orgasm, is one of the many things men commonly say to invalidate the importance of women's sexual pleasure.

How do you figure? How is saying "It's easy to make a man come" in any way related to female sexual pleasure? It sounds more like you're trying to invalidate male sexual pleasure, by trying to bring up female pleasure when it doesn't apply.

You're right, women don't always expect an orgasm. This comment thread has sort of shown why. When you have so many women expecting men to be psychic sexual savants, you're going to end up disappointed most of the time.

Women are responsible for their own pleasure, and casting off a guy because he's not "trained", or treating him like a stupid, lousy lover because you didn't get what you didn't ask for is nonsensical. My point stands: If you want something, ask for it. If not, you have no room to be upset that you didn't get it.

@ShifterCat, the sequel

I have no idea of your or his age, but age does play a factor in men. Also medications, and various other things. In general, though, my point stands. A healthy male in "prime" sexual age range, without any medications or inebriation, will find orgasm very simple to achieve.

Though, again, you don't "deserve" anything. Not when it comes from another person. You can't really say someone "owes" you any kind of sexual treatment, just because you believe you should have it.

I'm fairly certain I've read many feminists being quite upset at men that believe that women "owe" them orgasms. They don't. Just like men don't owe you one.

If one wishes to give you one, because he wants to, wonderful. But he doesn't owe it to you, anymore than you owe it to him.

"If a man is healthy, sober, and not taking any medications that have an effect of lowering his libido, chances are, he'll orgasm, and it won't take a lot of work."

How many men have you had sex with, Black Thirteen? How many men's process of orgasm are you intimately familiar with?

We are telling you, as women who've had sex with multiple men, that yes it takes work, and that each man is different. Apparently, your experience is different. So that we can figure out who has a more reliable sample size, how many men have you had sex with?

And if you keep up with the unnecessarily long posts that alienate other posters, I'm e-mailing Jessica...

@a.k.a. Ninapendamaishi

None. I'm not physically attracted to males.

I know enough who are more than willing to TMI with their sex lives, though.

I could easily tell you, as a man who has had sex with multiple women, that women take more work.

Also, don't threaten me. I don't take well to threats. It's rude. There's no rule against long posts. If I have to respond to multiple people, I'm going to do it in one long post, instead of breaking it up into 6 separate posts, which I find to be a disruptive act.

I could easily say your posts alienate me. Point is, we're having a conversation, and I'm sorry you disagree with some of what I say, but that doesn't give you a right to threaten me to try to quiet me down.

Thank you, Black Thirteen, for your usual male inadequacy rants. Perhaps you should be working on that as much as we're supposed to be working on our own orgasms.

But it's also not cool to the rest of the poor gals who might be next in line with this poor fool who doesn't know where the frickin' clit is.

Amen.

And I'll add: to all those people saying women are different and men can't know that, there are many men out there who are flat out incompetent in bed. If they've been lied to and made to think that they're tigers in the sack, then I guess I sort of feel sorry for them, but I'm still not sleeping with them.

"I could easily tell you, as a man who has had sex with multiple women, that women take more work."

So you're basing it on your own experience with women, and what your friends say about their own bodies. Well then, I could easily tell you, as a woman who has sex with men, and who has friends willing to share plenty of details about their own bodies and sex lives, that yes men definitely take work to reach orgasm. Voila. And that women /on average/ take a few minutes longer to reach orgasm, but not always, because it's an individualistic thing. Voila. And why should a difference of a few minutes anyway, determine that men can expect to have an orgasm when they have sex, but women cannot?

I propose that if in your experiences having sex with women, you always came quickly but they did not come, it is most likely evidence that they knew what they were doing and worked to make you come, while the reverse was not true.

"I'm fairly certain I've read many feminists being quite upset at men that believe that women "owe" them orgasms. They don't. Just like men don't owe you one."

If one person agrees to have sex with another person, it should entail a good-faith desire to want the other person to have a good time. For most people, that means a good-faith effort from their partner to help them orgasm. You're right though, if a woman wants to have sex with a man but he doesn't want to make any kind of a good-faith effort to help her have an orgasm (assuming she'd like one), he doesn't owe her one -he should just stay home and masturbate instead of agreeing to have sex with her. Same thing if you reverse the roles. /No/ individual should go into sex with the idea that the only orgasm they care about is their own, however.

BlackThirteen, you keep bringing up this "expecting men to be psychic" thing. Where are you getting that from, because I certainly don't see it anywhere? Your evaluation seems to be very all or nothing, but there are NOT only two ways to be sexual. It is NOT either demanding to the point of raping or saying nothing at all, and it is completely disingenuous for you to suggest that it is.

As for men supposedly orgasming in their sleep more than women do, please point me to a definitive study. Just because women don't leave physical evidence doesn't mean that we don't orgasm in our sleep. I was staying with a friend one time, sleeping on a cot right next to his bed, and he told me I was obviously having a sexual dream one night; I didn't remember it and there was no physical evidence of it but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. And as far as I can tell, I have more sexual dreams than my husband does. While that's obviously anecdotal evidence, your evidence seems to be purely anecdotal as well.

Also, orgasm is not as easy for all men as you are saying it is and it is very insulting of you to say so. I've heard the "all a man needs is a warm hole" argument plenty of times and only found it to be true with one guy who was severely addicted to pornography. Unlike the prevailing wisdom, I (and many of my fellow feminists) recognize that men want emotional connection too, that different men have different needs. Your friends may be willing to share too much information but that doesn't mean they are always going to tell you the truth or tell you every little detail of their sexual experiences.

Finally, when you are having a conversation with people, it generally helps if you actually listen to what their experiences rather than dismissing them because they aren't the same as yours. But considering what you've been advocating on sex, I guess that shouldn't be all that surprising.

@ keshmeshi

What are you talking about?

It's a valid point. Expecting your partner to know what you want without telling your partner what you want is folly. If you want something, you ask for it. Assuming your sexual partner can read your mind isn't going to lead to fantastic sex, it's going to lead to disappointing sex.

That could easily go for both sexes. If your male partner wants you to bite his collarbones, but never asks you to, he's going to be disappointed, because chances are, you won't do that, because you never knew it was desired.

Also, you're slightly wrong. All people ARE different in bed. One could easily say there's no such thing as "bad" or "good" in bed, because what flips your switch might flat out turn-off another woman.

So, one person's good can easily be another person's bad.

@ a.k.a. Ninapendamaishi

What I mean, isn't just time. It's also method. Standard PIV will pretty much usually result in orgasm for a male. For a woman, some can easily reach orgasm from that, some can sometimes, some can't at all. All men really require is repetitive friction on just about any area on the surface of the penis. Women tend to require a specific type of stimulation, in a specific way, in a specific place. Which varies depending on the woman.

If you've developed a particularly stunning method of handjob, it's going to probably work on just about any man you meet.

Inversely, if a male has found a way to bring his girlfriend with his hands, and it works fantastically, there's a strong chance that on the next woman he sleeps with, it might not work at all.

Do you see what I was getting at, now? I suppose I should have been more clear in the first place, my apologies.

You propose incorrectly, though. I hate to be so blunt, but if I can achieve orgasm while she mostly lays there, what exactly did she do? How is that an example of "knowing what you're doing"? When you can simple provide a receptive region of the body, and permit it to be entered, what work is really being done?

If I felt so inclined, I'd ensure they achieved one. (Yes, I know. Vocality isn't a measure, but the internal spasms and contractions are a little bit harder to fake).

Regardless, at the end of the day, I still find no real enjoyment in it. I'd usually work to get off quickly, in order to get it done with and do something else more interesting.

Still, most people DO go into sex because *they* want an orgasm. Let's pretend you're physically incapable of orgasm, or any sexual pleasure at all, for that matter. The act of intercourse feels the same to you as rubbing your arm. Now, how interested would you be in sex? Would you really go into it for the other person's pleasure alone?

Whether or not you'd admit it, there's a degree of selfishness involved in sex.

@ wax_ghost

I'm getting it from so many posters here who seem to be assuming that men should "just know" what they want. Or who say it's his responsibility to ask her what she wants.

Or calling him a lousy lover because she doesn't want to ask for what she wants. Things like that.

As for it not being as easy for all men, I believe I accounted for the various factors involved in that. Antidepressants tend to vastly lower one's ability to become and stay aroused, and achieve orgasm. So does being drunk, various other medications, age, or some other physical irregularity that results in it.

Which is why I continually made the stipulation for a healthy, sober, unmedicated male of prime age.

To say that "men" want "emotional connection" is a bit of generalization. Some do, I'm sure, and some don't. Same, really, with women. Not everyone needs some washy emotional experience with their sex, and not everyone wants the quick and dirty.

Finally, I do listen. But just as many people are quick to discount everything I say, so that makes me much less willing to give their opinions the attention they believe they should have.

Though, what do you mean by "What I've been advocating on sex"?

In other words, you are completely distorting and misunderstanding what people here are saying. Good to know.

And what I mean by "what you've been advocating on sex" is that you are presenting it like its merely masturbation with a partner, that each person is completely on their own when it comes to their orgasms. You have repeatedly pushed aside any assertion that there needs to be any communication or mutual responsiveness between sexual partners. You have also repeatedly pushed aside the experience of others that differ from yours in this conversation. Not that I think you'll actual listen to me, but we obviously have different expectations in a lot of areas.

@wax_ghost

I am not. I resent the implication.

No, what I mean is you ARE completely on your own when it comes to getting what you want. YOU have to be the one to ask. You have to go to your partner, and start a dialogue detailing the sort of activities you enjoy in bed. Then, if they agree, you can have them.

For many people (and some here, if comments are truthful) sex IS "masturbation with a partner". Many of the commenters treat it as a way to get to an orgasm. Which to me, sounds like masturbation with a partner.

I have not pushed aside said assertions. *I* have repeatedly asserted that if you want something, you ask for it, instead of assuming your partner "should know" what you want.

Though, I could just as easily say you push aside my experiences, because they're different than yours. Or that you push aside the experiences of people who don't use sexy for washy emotional closeness.

*Don't use sex, rather.

Black Thirteen, this is getting a little ridiculous.

Let's review the dialectic of this particular thread. You said, Getting what you want through repeated requests is equivalent to rape. Then I said, that's a ridiculous statement. While getting sex by asking multiple times for it may be morally problematic, it is no more equivalent to rape than do I rob from someone by virtue of asking him repeatedly for money. To say otherwise is grossly to trivialize the travesty that is rape.

Your response is to "call BS". As I understand the term, you'd have to do one of two things to successfully call bullshit on my claim here. You'd have to demonstrate either that (a) I am committed to some view according to which getting sex by asking for it multiple times is rape, or (b) it is obviously true that getting sex by asking for it multiple times is rape.

But you don't do either of these things. Instead, you state that I've read numerous feminist articles and blogs and other things that clearly state: Sex through repeated nagging/coercive language = rape. Is the intended inference something like, some feminist articles say X, therefore some guy who is posting in the comments thread of a feminist blog must think X? Here's something that may surprise you: some feminists -- like some nonfeminists -- sometimes say things I do not agree with, and indeed which I find seriously problematic. (I had an argument last year with a feminist who argued that all heterosexual sex was rape; I found his suggestion horrifying in a way similar to the horrifyingness of your present one.)

"Rape" is a powerful word, and rightly so. Some of the rhetoric you're using represents an attempt to water it down in a way that is frankly revolting. Please: stop.

@ JP Ichi

No, I'm not saying YOU need to hold those views. I'm saying *I* do. And that because I learned them from other feminists, that other feminists do, too.

Ergo, what you say sounds insensitive and rude to me, and could be potentially highly offensive to any woman who might walk into this thread.

If you continually beg and plead and harass a woman into sleeping with you, and she finally relents and lets you, guess what? She didn't want to She didn't consent, she broke down. Sounds like rape to me. If she doesn't freely and enthusiastically consent the first time you ask, then your penis is not wanted, move on and deal with it.

You seem to be trying to classify rape as a very specific circumstance. Not all rape is violent, not all rape results in physical injury, not all rape is "stranger rape".

I don't like your line of logic, because it could quickly change into "Well, she wasn't injured, so...."

Rape is a powerful word, and it means any sexual contact that is not wanted and not consented to. It doesn't have to be by force.

The assumption appears to be that it is impossible to consent the fourth time after refusing the first three.

This assumption is false.

That is NOT to say that all rape involves strangers or physical injury. (I do think that all rape is violent, although we may disagree as to what counts as 'violent'.) Neither is it to say -- and this point I emphasized earlier -- that there is nothing morally problematic about convincing a reluctant partner to have sex.

I'll bow out of this thread now, because I think we're off-topic, and I've said what I needed to say.

I consider that to be under duress. Consent given under duress, is, to me, not true consent.

Consent should be enthusiastic. If it's not given the first time, stop asking.

In YOUR opinion, consent earned through nagging and harassment is legitimate. That might ease your conscience, but if you've gotten sex through those means, I'd consider you a rapist.

"I have no idea of your or his age, but age does play a factor in men. Also medications, and various other things. In general, though, my point stands. A healthy male in "prime" sexual age range, without any medications or inebriation, will find orgasm very simple to achieve."

Wrong. Mr. Shiftercat doesn't drink or smoke, he's on no medications, he's not depressed, he's got an active libido, and he's had this problem since we first started having sex (in his early 20's). It's gotten better recently, as we've become increasingly in tune with one another. But it still takes more work to get him off than it does for him to do me. Big whoop, because as I said, he's worth it.

"One could easily say there's no such thing as "bad" or "good" in bed, because what flips your switch might flat out turn-off another woman. So, one person's good can easily be another person's bad."

Wrong again. Being good in bed requires:

1. Watching and listening for cues from your partner. Maybe she isn't sure yet what feels good from you... but if she's going, "Mmm... mmm... mmm..." and then suddenly goes "OHHHH!" chances are she likes that thing you just did there, and would like more of it. You could confirm by asking, "Oh, you like that, do you?"

2. Willingness to listen to what your partner says, and not tune out or deliberately misconstrue advice because it's not what you want to hear. Some women do say what they want -- only to be ignored. Like the anecdote here: she said, "That's a little rough", and he said, "Yeah, you like it rough!"

3. Showing not just willingness but enthusiasm for pleasing your partner. Someone whose expression suggests that I've just asked him to stick his head in a toilet when I ask for oral pleasure is not going to get invited back for seconds, even if he accedes.

"...if I can achieve orgasm while she mostly lays there, what exactly did she do? How is that an example of 'knowing what you're doing'?"

It isn't, and I've heard men complain about women doing exactly that -- "she just lay there like a starfish". Even if they stuck around to get off (which one male acquaintance in this situation didn't bother to), they didn't come back for seconds. Most men also like someone who seems genuinely interested in pleasing them, and who is willing to experiment a little to see what they like best.

"You aren't entitled to someone else's physical affections."

From someone who's enjoying your physical affections? Yeah, you are. As Ninapendamaishi so aptly put it, "If one person agrees to have sex with another person, it should entail a good-faith desire to want the other person to have a good time... if a woman wants to have sex with a man but he doesn't want to make any kind of a good-faith effort to help her have an orgasm (assuming she'd like one), he doesn't owe her one -- he should just stay home and masturbate instead of agreeing to have sex with her."

This is basic-level, please-and-thank-you consideration, like not eating at a restaurant if you're not going to tip the server. You're not legally required to leave a tip, but you are socially obliged. Unlike a restaurant, though, a sex partner can "refuse service" if you ignore your social obligation.

There's a joke I like. She: "How'd you like to come back to my place for a sixty-eight?" He: "What's a sixty-eight?" She: "You go down on me, and I owe you one."

I like this joke because she's not saying, "I bought you dinner, so you owe me one", or "I married you, so you owe me one". Sex is already on the table -- the morality is as simple as, "You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours".

"Not doing what you want in bed is not "neglecting" or "mistreating" you. If that were the case, someone could use that line to get their partner to do a lot of things they were uncomfortable with."

Actually, I do think that people should be willing to expand their horizons in bed -- to the extent of, "I'm not sure if that's my thing, but I'll try it" rather than, "That completely frightens and repulses me". Again, it's about mutual compromise, not utterly subsuming your desires in favour of someone else's.

"Though, yes, a relationship IS about "if my needs mesh with yours, good, if not, we should find someone else". Why would two people that don't mesh form a relationship in the first place? Quite ill-advised, if you ask me."

Because nobody meshes perfectly. You find someone with whom you mesh mostly, with whom there aren't any huge gaping problems (such as needs this fetish to get off vs. is repulsed and disturbed by this fetish), but for the parts where you don't mesh perfectly, you need to compromise. Again, this is not that hard to understand.

"Just because I no longer have sex does not suddenly make me unqualified to speak about it."

There's a reason why I said, "Someone who dislikes children", not just "someone who is childfree". It's not just that you don't have sex anymore, it's that you have flaming buckets of psychological issues about it. That's why you throw these hissy-fit rants every time the subject of female orgasm comes up, and derail threads twisting yourself into knots trying to prove your untenable positions. This has happened before, and you got your ass handed to you. If you really want to get your issues off your chest, may I suggest a private blog? Or better yet, pen and paper? But don't tell everyone else how to behave in bed when your own efforts have turned you to celibacy.

JP Ichi's robbery simile makes sense:

If someone's asking you repeatedly for money -- not standing in front of a door to block your exit, not not grabbing your arm, not trying to get you drunk enough that you won't resist them taking your wallet, not even saying, "You'd better give me what I want" or "I could just take it, and it'd be worse for you" -- just trailing along whining, "C'mon, give me the money, please? Just a little bit of money. I really need it. I'd really appreciate it," and you finally shove some bills at them and snap, "Fine, here, now get lost" you haven't been robbed. Harassed, yes, but you haven't been robbed, and though you might be kicking yourself about giving in, you won't feel violated in the same way that a robbery victim does.

Now you've been asked politely, and you've been asked firmly. KNOCK IT THE FUCK OFF ALREADY.

@ShifterCat

How is that "wrong"? I fail to see how I'm wrong. I say not every woman is alike, and different things work for different women, and you tell me I'm incorrect?

Are you trying to say all women are the same in what gets them off in bed? I'd have to say YOU would be the one who is wrong.

1. Or, she could say "Hey, I like it when someone does this (gives details).

2. Well, that's called "bad communication". If your partner thinks you like something you don't, perhaps you need to have discussions about your interests in the bedroom, outside of it.

3. How nice and selfish. So, your partner better damn well be enthusiastic about doing something, even if it repulses him? Nice. Sorry, I'm not going to be enthusiastic about the concept of doing a sexual act that I despise.

Some men do, sure. But that's still just my point. It doesn't require a woman who "knows what she's doing" to give us an orgasm. It just requires a woman.

Though, it's strange, you go from "Be enthusiastic about pleasing your partner" to "Only please your partner because they did something for you, first".

Which is it? You please them because you want to give them pleasure, or because you think you'll get something out of it? One is altruistic, one is selfish.

Well, some people are willing to "expand their horizons", some aren't. Expecting someone to do so is definitely pushing it. If they don't want to try out having upside-down blindfolded sex, then they don't have to. It's still not neglect or mistreatment for them to turn down your request.

Also, I resent your implication that I have "psychological issues". How dare you. Because I hold a different opinion, you imply that there is something wrong with me, mentally.

I've heard that one before. You know, they still apply it to women that don't want to have kids. It's insulting. It's insulting to do to women, and it's insulting to do to men. Don't do it.

I haven't thrown a "hissy fit". The ones doing that are the ones that assume men owe them orgasms, and more, that men should be "trained" to give them orgasms, or that men should "already know" how to give them one, without them ever asking for what they want.

How are my positions untenable?

A: You are responsible for your own orgasm. If you don't ask for what you want, you can't get angry about not getting it.

B: All women are different, so therefore it's not up to a woman to "train" a man for all his future sexual encounters.

C: You can't make someone give you something in bed if they don't want to, and there's nothing wrong with telling someone you aren't comfortable with an act, and you refuse to do it.

Which of those are so "untenable"?

Also, it's not "my own efforts" that made me stop having sex.

It's the fact that sex isn't all that interesting, and there's nothing that great or enjoyable about it, that can't be gained from masturbation. Unlike some people, I don't need it to function on a daily basis. I don't wrap my life around my next orgasm caused by another person.

It's late in the thread but I kind of have to back up Black Thirteen on some of his points. There was a thread just a couple weeks ago on Feministing (don't remember which, sorry) wherein a woman said that her bf would repeatedly harass her for sex until she consented. No threats or violence, but harassment nonetheless. She said she would submit to sex, but to her it was more like rape. All of the other commenters fully supported that her consent was not freely given and consent granted only after this kind of browbeating is not actually consent. (This is, of course, different than someone genuinely changing their mind and freely deciding to have sex after rebuffing previous requests.) So this is not an argument that Black Thirteen is merely pulling out of his ass.

Also, I do have some issues with the original post and the whole thread really. I think there have been a lot of people conflating what "good lovers" SHOULD do with what is the basic obligation of every sex partner. The two are not the same. Ultimately, people are responsible for their own sexual pleasure (whether this makes someone selfish or "bad" in bed is irrelevant). If I want an orgasm I either have to a) get myself off, b) communicate with my partner what she/he can do to help me get off, or c) decide what to do if it doesn't happen. And the same goes for them. Even as a willing sex partner, I am still not responsible for their orgasms or for the orgasms of their future sex partners.

While I completely agree that it can be really powerful and important for women to claim sexual pleasure as our entitlement as much as men seem to be able to claim it as theirs, I think that we also need to remember that it's not our responsibility to educate ignorant men.
There are endless articles in every magazine telling us how to better please men - why aren't men reading about how to please women? Why don't they go read up on how women don't normally achieve orgasm from vaginal stimulation?
We need to be able to take the power back to demand our own pleasure without sitting around waiting for men to figure things out, but we also need to refrain from taking on responsibility for men's ignorance.

Note to some posters: She said it was your duty to seek pleasure, not necessarily orgasm. And if you are having sex without pleasure, that is definitely a problem. And as for the second part, I think you have to read a lot into to see victim blaming. Making the world a more orgasmic place for other women does not have to mean teaching men to be better partners. What about not slut shaming? That's one way to make the world a healthier sexual place for women, and there are others that have nothing to do with victim blaming.

I feel moved to comment. Everyone here is being so whiney about whether you can "deserve" to have an orgasm. Orgasms aren't a "right", a truth held to be self-evident. BUT if you're in a loving relationship, why would you NOT want to give your partner as much pleasure as possible?

I always make sure my girlfriend comes, whether it's by penetration, oral or "manual stimulation". I want her to feel good about herself. If I didn't want her to enjoy sex what sort of a boyfriend would I be?

On the issue of oral sex, I quite enjoy going down on my girlfriend but I must confess that the FIRST two times I ever gave oral I felt like I was going to be sick and lost my erection. It was worth it though because it gave the woman pleasure and now I enjoy it.

NB: Any other men/women find that if you spell out the alphabet with your tongue when you're going down on a woman it works a treat every time?

dawn_of_the_bread,

"whiney"? really?? That's not going to win you many fans around here...

"While I completely agree that it can be really powerful and important for women to claim sexual pleasure as our entitlement as much as men seem to be able to claim it as theirs, I think that we also need to remember that it's not our responsibility to educate ignorant men.
There are endless articles in every magazine telling us how to better please men - why aren't men reading about how to please women? Why don't they go read up on how women don't normally achieve orgasm from vaginal stimulation? "

Okay, I read plenty on how to please men, but fact is it did me basically no good when I got to the flesh-and-blood thing. There are actually a lot of articles out there for men on how to please women, but they're not going to work all the time. Plus as has been stated here countless times, everyone likes something different. I think it's only profoundly ignorant men these days who don't know about the clitoris these days. But if you want decent sex, good communication has always been and still is the best way to ensure that...

I'm find Kimmel's assertion that women are faking orgasms problematic.

Couldn't Kimmel's research support these alternative arguments?

a) Men are under a weighty socially/culturally constructed pressure to provide orgasms for their female partner. In this way, it's likely that men lie about their partner's orgasms (hence the discrepancy in numbers), or interpret a high rate of arousal as orgasm. In either case, both mistakes are made consciously or unconsciously to satisfy the masculine duty to "make their woman cum."

b) Besides vocalisms, some men don't know other physically signs that point to the female orgasm, such as: the clenching of the vaginal walls (which a man could feel on his penis or fingers), or the ejaculation of fluid from the urethra.

Whether or not one finds these arguments plausible, I think it's important to consider the notion that Kimmel's research says as much about masculinity, and its prescriptions for men during a heterosexual encounter, as femininity and women having (heterosexual) sex.

I'm find Kimmel's assertion that women are faking orgasms problematic.

Couldn't Kimmel's research support these alternative arguments?

a) Men are under a weighty socially/culturally constructed pressure to provide orgasms for their female partner. In this way, it's likely that men lie about their partner's orgasms (hence the discrepancy in numbers), or interpret a high rate of arousal as orgasm. In either case, both mistakes are made consciously or unconsciously to satisfy the masculine duty to "make their woman cum."

b) Besides vocalisms, some men don't know other physically signs that point to the female orgasm, such as: the clenching of the vaginal walls (which a man could feel on his penis or fingers), or the ejaculation of fluid from the urethra.

Whether or not one finds these arguments plausible, I think it's important to consider the notion that Kimmel's research says as much about masculinity, and its prescriptions for men during a heterosexual encounter, as femininity and women having (heterosexual) sex.

My broader point, masculinity is also a feminist issue.