I wonder how much this was influenced by the guy who wants to put breast milk in his food at the restaurant.
http://mzbitca.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/would-you-like-some-breast-milk-stew/

how about soy milk?

You know, there are really 2 different issues here.

First, we have PETA's continued sexualization of women for their awareness campaigns. I understand the complaint, but the way they are going about it really turns me off to their cause.

Second, PETA refuses to acknowledge that animal farming can be done in a humane manner. I admit that the conditions in large scale corporate farms can be cruel, but as a girl from rural Vermont, I've seen a fair amount of workng dairy farms. I assure you that the animals are quite comfortable.

So PETA, here's a heart F*ck you squared.

Hearty. The last line should have said hearty.

So...we can pump women full of hormones instead of cows?

Or we could just try hormone-free, humane farming! *gasp*

I hate PETA so fucking much. Sexism aside, they are the worst thing possible for animal rights. If it wasn't for PETA, that particular movement might be seen as something other than a crazy, psychopathic joke.

Ugh, I just saw this on CNN. Insanity.

VTidealist, I'm with you. I'm friends with a girl from a dairy farm, and she and I both know that when it comes to conditions with cows, the proof is in the milk. Cows that are stressed as painfully as PETA describes are more apt to produce sour milk, so most dairy farmers treat their cows very well so that the milk is of the highest quality. Also, I'm no veterinarian, so don't quote me, but I doubt the validity of the claim that cows must be impregnated every so often to keep producing milk. Last I knew, as long as the mammal in question has something suckling (be it calf or machine) the mammal keeps producing milk. I think that's true for all mammals. It's especially true for humans and cats (we had a kitten that had a hard time weening).
Anyway, back to the PETA point in question: not only is this monstrously sexist, but it's also hypocritical. Humans are animals too, so breast milk would be the equivalent of cow milk. I don't know why they aren't rooting for soy milk. I mean, that would at least make sense!

PETA's methods are stupid and offensive.

Their message could be delivered much more elegantly and people might listen. I for one believe we are no more or less valuable than most creatures, so I'm pretty disgusted by milk. Perpetually pregnant and/or lactating? Yuck. I don't care how comfortable you make them, if they had the brainpower, most of them would probably jump off a cliff. We humans definitely are suffering an ego rush thinking we are better than any other animal.

However we have a contract with domesticated creatures. They are supposed to be able to live relatively pain-free lives, have food, water, and comfort, in exchange for what we take from them. I doubt most dairy and meat cows could live in the wild. Chickens too, for that matter. If we just stopped farming them for food, there would be no reason to feed them.

Oh, for crapping out loud.

I've been a vegetarian for over a decade for moral reasons (although my family are all omnivores), and PETA makes me want to go out and eat an entire raw cow just to piss them off. How can this possibly be seen as effective campaigning? Their marketing (or whatever they call them) people are just plain idiots.

I agree with Ariel; why aren't they pushing soy as an alternative? Replacing one animal (cow) for another animal (human) is not reducing animal cruelty. Or they could, y'know, pursue the places that do treat their milk-producing critters poorly and push/help them to revamp their ops so that this situation doesn't exist. Or something that ACTUALLY MAKES SENSE. For crap's sake.

Rant over. Sigh.

What I don't understand about PETA's disgusting campaigns is who they're expecting to turn over to their side. Why do they think that the kind of people who would respond positively to their grossly sexist ad campaigns would give a crap about animals? Seriously, why would PETA possibly think that people who dehumanize women (you know, other human beings) turn around and humanize cows? Do they seriously not see the irony?

Like always, Peta is just looking for publicity. They come up with the most outlandish ideas, and all they have to do is create a press release and the media (this site included) is all over it. If you disagree with their message, why help them and post it? Obviously Ben and Jerry's isn't going to get behind this proposal.

Peta is trying to make a connection between female cattle and female humans. Neither one wants to be perpetually lactating, and yes cows do need to be inseminated (raped you might say, isn't that what it's called when something is forced into your genitals without your consent?) in order to lactate. Now, whether you believe animals should have rights is another issue altogether, and everyone has a right to their opinions so I won't get into that.

Basically, I wanted to clear up the questions as to why Peta doesn't just advocate for soy ice cream. The answer is: where's the controversy? This organization knows what will get them talked about, and again and again they succeed in doing so.

I followed a link path from feministing -> this article -> another article -> original news article, from which I got a quote from an FDA-equivalent person in Switzerland, in the context of how human milk was a loophole in the regulation laws.

"They are not on the list of approved species such as cows and sheep, but they are also not on the list of the banned species such as apes and primates,"

Double-take time: humans are primates. So are apes.

"Object (a|a is in set A) is not in set (B|B includes b and c), also not in set (C|C includes (D|D is a subset of A) and A)."

A few more thoughts...

I hardly believe that stressed cows produce sour milk, and that "most dairy farmers treat their cows well." On a small scale, this might be true, but factory farms are all about profit so it's doubtful that the cows are able to graze in open pastures and be milked by hand. Again, not to say that those happy farms don't exist, but where do you think Shamrock milk comes from? Probably a factory farm.

What is the big upset with breast milk anyway? Surely it would be healthier for humans to consume that then cow's milk. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to be first in line for a sample, but it's no weirder than drinking from the udder of another species.

Let's imagine for a second that a woman's excess breast milk were sold to Ben and Jerry's for a generous amount, were pasteurized and used in their products. Where is the harm in that? Men can sell their bodily fluids (sperm) and no one cares, and the milk is voluntarily being sold, the women is being paid a fair wage and is treated well, so it's not exactly exploitation.

I guess I don't see the big outrage. Perhaps it's just that people don't like Peta (I can see why) and so everything they do is seen in a bad light. I'm not saying that this is a good proposal, I'm not saying Peta is a good organization, I'm just saying let's think about this from a purely hypothetical point of view and then decide if it's really that outrageous.

Okay, MissRachel, I'm imagining for a second that a woman's excess breast milk is being sold to Ben and Jerry's for a generous amount. I'll leave you to guess the race and socioeconomic status of those women. Therein lies the harm.

alixana - you make a good point

The first problem is that breast milk doesn't have the right fat composition to make anything resembling ice cream, actually.

PETA needs to realize that drawing comparisons between women and animals was edgy and thought provoking once, but if you do it too many times it becomes boring to the layman, and offensive to the people who are paying attention. It's not that it is an inherently bad comparison, but after the second time you see it you're either convinced or can articulate why the comparison is total bull. The campaign as it is only appeals to people who already agree with them, and either pushes away the people who do not, or simply disinterests them.

There's an idea, PETA: Animals are nothing like women--but they are like the other animals we call pets so how about rather than making dehumanizing comparisons, you remind us that that cow part we're about to eat came from an animal just as lovable as the kitten sleeping on the chair next to me? You don't have to pay me, it's free, just stop the lazy sexism already.

MissRachel, the credit for the point goes to feminism, it taught me well!

Further, MissRachel, excess breastmilk can be donated to milk banks where it's distributed to preemies, kids with serious diseases who need the immunity boost, multiples whose moms can't produce enough milk, etc. Serving it to healthy adults at expensive restaurants or making it into expensive and indulgent ice cream is stealing it from the people who actually need it.

alixana hits the nail on the head. the north american milk bank association is against donating milk for money (unlike blood or plasma) because of the risk a mother might deprive her own child of milk in order to pump more to sell.

also, human breast milk is for human babies. there are thousands of babies dying because they dont have access to breastmilk and now rich western adults should be able to get it in their cherry garcia? i think PETA doesnt realise breastmilk, bought to legitimate reasons from a milk bank can cost US$3-5 an ounce. which is why a lot of woman got "underground" for sharted breastmilk if they are unable to nurse their children.

i think the PETA's suggestion has more to do with north americans' (mostly) uncomfortableness with breastfeeding. nursing (especially in public) is considered akin to spitting, jerking off, or defecating. i think they are expecting people to make the leap from milk from a human's breast is gross to milk from a cow's breast is gross.

With every press release, I become more and more convinced that PETA is secretly funded by McDonalds to make people hate vegetarians...

Breast milk is very complicated! I had no idea that you couldn't "sell" it. Obviously, it would be best for women with excess milk to donate it, and I think it's a wonderful gift if they are able to do so. This could be true of excess anything: money, time, love. If you have enough, give it to someone who needs it! :)

It's hard not to want to get into a big debate about whether cow's milk belongs to us; I feel like that might be completely off topic and a bit messy. From strictly a health perspective though, wouldn't breast milk be better for humans than cow's milk? Based on the logical reasoning above, I can see why it would not be ethical to make ice cream from breast milk, but hypothetically, wouldn't it be healthier?

I agree with MissRachel - this is all about publicity.

I could be wrong but I don't think PETA is really advocating for breast milk to be used in ice cream. They want you to be outraged by that thought, and then since you have compassion for women, perhaps you will also have more compassion for the cows.

Still offensive, though.

MissRachel: Breast milk is very high calorie and high fat, and very sweet. It's designed to help an infant or young child grow a lot in a short amount of time, including helping their brain develop. While it would be fine in a survival situation for a breastfeeding woman to help those around her survive or something, for an adult it would be less healthy than cow's milk, because it would be so high calorie, high fat, and high sugar. It's likely it would cause obesity in adults, because they aren't using the nutrients for brain development like an infant is. Breast milk is very good for developing children, but once a person stops growing those advantages would become disadvantages.

actually brianna, i donated breastmilk to a woman's father who was going through chemo for throat cancer.

google will give you a few links about the health benefits of breast milk for people other than babies.

http://www.womanthouartgod.com/mothersmilk01.php

it's even good for treating pink eye and sinus infections

http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/breastfeeding/walking-medicine-chest.html

boob sauce is awesome!

Cow milk is designed to help baby cows grow too, and they grow up to be even bigger than (most) humans. Not scientific logic, I know, but if I had to choose one or the other I'd still go for the breast milk. Luckily I don't have to drink either.

I'm learning so much about "boob sauce"! :)

It is a really dumb letter, but the whole point of it is that it got attention. You all don't really think that Peta thinks that Ben and Jerry's would even consider this, do you?

The reason for this letter is that it circulates and that people think about dairy cows. That's all.

Yes, they could be doing so much more with their support, and that's why until they get their shit together, I won't be sending them any money. They have the resources to be very progressive.

"

So...we can pump women full of hormones instead of cows?

Or we could just try hormone-free, humane farming! *gasp*

I hate PETA so fucking much. Sexism aside, they are the worst thing possible for animal rights. If it wasn't for PETA, that particular movement might be seen as something other than a crazy, psychopathic joke."

Maybe you are the one making the mistake of thinking that Peta and only Peta is animal rights.

There is no such thing as humane farming from an animal activism perspective. Dairy cows are artificially inseminated to remain pregnant. Otherwise, they'd not keep producing milk. The male cows are killed for veal and the female cows live a life of reproductive exploitation and pain, then they are killed when no longer profitable. Regardless of hormones. So, there are BETTER, MORE ethical ways of farming dairy, but there is no true humane dairy farming. Unless one were to have a pet cow, and let it die naturally. But that's very expensive.

Maybe I'm saying this on the wrong site, but women are people who make choices. Animals aren't. You or I might not respect those women's choices, but they've got to pay their bills and no one is paying them to blog.

I used to be a vegetarian and have been considering returning to that life style. I also have a major problem with the fur industry which is simply disgusting. That said, I wish that these groups could have some reasonable, practical, level headed representation without being overshadowed by PETA. It is to the point now that when animal rights are mentioned everybody is like "Oh, those nut jobs". It totally discredits the movement. I understand that they try to shock to get publicity but the trade off for that publicity is that they are easy to dismiss and alienate people who could be supporters.

Breastmilk would probably help someone who was quite sick, and needed all that fat and protein. Especially a chemo patient who often can't keep down other foods. I just meant for the average adult, especially in America, it would probably cause obesity if consumed in quantities at all similar to how much cow's milk products people eat.

Cows require sugars and such, but they don't have the same level of brain development and aren't born at such an early development stage as humans, so they don't need as much fat and sugar in their milk. Keep in mind that baby cows can already walk and see clearly, and baby humans are barely developed. That's why baby humans can't have cow's milk, there's not enough of the right nutrients in it-- but if you replaced the average, healthy adult person's cow's milk (or goat's milk) with human milk, including what they consume in cheese, ice cream, yogurt, etc, and added it to the normal diet of modern humans, you'd have serious obesity problems from it.

If I was starving, I would prefer human milk, because it's got more in it and would keep me alive longer, but for everyday life, I'd drink cow's milk for my health, and would prefer soy milk to breast milk regardless because it's really not good with a healthy adult's diet.

Besides, I'd always prefer the human milk went to babies that needed it and soy or rice milk is a better option all around.

Also, aleks, do you really believe that women would choose to be breastmilk producers without extreme financial distress? At least prostitution is less likely to cause your baby to starve.

Remember that part in Borat when he gives Bob Barr cheese and tells him that the milk came from his wife's breast? Something tells me breast milk ice cream would go over just as well.

Someone mentioned soy milk. Someone I know tried making ice cream with soy milk, and it didn't really work out. But I'm sure Ben & Jerry could come up with a way.

Also, aleks, do you really believe that women would choose to be breastmilk producers without extreme financial distress? At least prostitution is less likely to cause your baby to starve.
Posted by Brianna G

Oh, I'm sure they're in rough shape. So should they starve? Is this weird scheme keeping them from getting better jobs? Is poverty on the verge of extinction?

aleks: We would need about ten women for every one cow we currently have to produce an approximate amount of milk, first of all. Which would mean to feed the human race we'd probably need ALL women to produce breast milk in this scheme, at least all poor women, and we'd have to pay them almost nothing or milk would cost $100 a gallon.

If they give up their breast milk, guess who doesn't get it? Their infants. So they can feed their infants formula, which is expensive, so they can sell perfectly good milk for maybe a few cents for an hour of pumping, or we could instead set up a system where they can get real, decent-paying jobs where they are allowed to pump for their child on the job, and their baby is healthier and they will make a reasonable wage.

If an individual woman wants to sell her excess breast milk, that's fine, but if you replace cows with women who are currently poor, you're going to have either extremely expensive milk or even poorer women.

I think we should all take a step back and realize that PETA is not in any way actually serious about this. They are just trying to get attention (and omg it's working!). In our society breast milk is seen as repulsive and not fit for adult human consumption. They want people to have the same reaction when it comes to cows milk.

Anunfunnyfeminist - i promise you, making soy ice cream works quite well. You can find it at pretty much any grocery store in america. I have 2 pints in my freezer as we speak.

For claiming to know all about animals and what they need PETA seems to know jack shit. "...cows are forcefully impregnated every nine months..." 1) 9 months is the gestation period for humans, NOT cows, 2) they are NOT impregnated, as long as the mammary is stimulated, it will produce milk indefinitely, JUST like with humans. "...heir exhausted bodies are turned into hamburgers or ground up for soup..." No. There are dairy cows, and there are cattle raise for meat. They are separate breeds. Dairy cows are NOT turned into meat after they are done making milk. You'd think an organization so crazed about animals would actually take the time to research stuff like this.

It's ironic that folks so skilled at uncovering and acknowledging covert, subversive sexism and racism might be so oblivious when it comes to spotting their own biases.

Jennifer -

1.) "The gestation period for a cow is the same as humans -- 9 months."

(fact from a pro dairy industry website) http://www.moomilk.com/faq.htm#How%20long%20is%20a%20cow%27s%20gestation

2.) First a cow has to get pregnant. "Once a calf is born the cow will continue to give milk for about 300 days, which is termed the lactation period." Factory farmers have figured out a way to prolong the lactation period for about 90 days...but that's it. Not indefinitely. At most about a year.

Fact from: http://www.pauls.com.au/information/information.cfm?/section/3/subsection/27/

3.) Dairy cows generally only live to be four years old, about half their average lifespan. They are slaughtered and turned into cheap meat for places like McDonald's and other fast food restaurants. You really think dairy cows are just let out to pasture to go frolic merrily until they die a natural death? Not to mention at dairy farms the male calves born are turned into veal.

Humane Society of the United States: http://www.hsus.org/farm/multimedia/gallery/cows/hard_life.html

Miss Rachel: Thanks for clearing me up about cow insemination and milk production. I wasn't sure, but I had reasons to doubt. Furthermore, stressed cows do, in fact, produce sour milk. I am not arguing that there are factory farms treat their cows inhumanely. But huge corporations do buy from smaller dairy farmers who treat their cows well so that milk production is at highest quality. I saw in the news one time (I think it was NBC Nightly...or was it Dateline...I forget which) about a Northern California dairy farm that treated their cows especially well. The cows were given plenty of food and shelter and could go outside whenever they wished and were milked whenever they wished. And it was a factory farm too (minimum of 2000 cattle). It was quite inspiring and I think more corporations should follow its lead.

Anyway, back to PETA and their outlandish claim. I don't think the point is that this letter might go somewhere. It's obviously done for the attention factor, but its the idea that is offensive. Making women cattle doesn't fix the problem of cows being cattle. It's counterproductive. So is the attention they are getting. I'm sure that if they sent a letter asking Ben and Jerry's to offer ice cream made with soy milk they would given a better chance at making a difference. Then, maybe they could make accomplishments and be treated seriously. It's times like these where I doubt PETA really wants to make a difference at all. *shrugs*

Um, can we talk about how disgusting it is that anybody would want to consume some stranger's breast milk? The restauranteur who's putting it in his food/drinks is cruising for bankruptcy if you ask me.

I know it is weird that we will accept cow's milk but refuse other types (dog milk, anyone? I thought not.). But at least with animals (cows) you can buy organic milk and know what they've been eating/drinking - with women (especially poor women, which the article points out would be the ones milking) you would be bound to get a disgusting slew of hormones, drugs, trans fats, and other crap most Americans stuff their bodies with.

Gross. Worst idea ever.

aleks: We would need about ten women for every one cow we currently have to produce an approximate amount of milk, first of all. Which would mean to feed the human race we'd probably need ALL women to produce breast milk in this scheme, at least all poor women, and we'd have to pay them almost nothing or milk would cost $100 a gallon.
If they give up their breast milk, guess who doesn't get it? Their infants. So they can feed their infants formula, which is expensive, so they can sell perfectly good milk for maybe a few cents for an hour of pumping, or we could instead set up a system where they can get real, decent-paying jobs where they are allowed to pump for their child on the job, and their baby is healthier and they will make a reasonable wage.
If an individual woman wants to sell her excess breast milk, that's fine, but if you replace cows with women who are currently poor, you're going to have either extremely expensive milk or even poorer women.
Posted by Brianna G Author Profile Page |September 24, 2008 3:11 PM

Well, I doubt anyone actually envisions a world where the current level of milk is provided by women instead of cows, and I sure as hell wouldn't drink it. But are the women supplying this weird Swiss restaurant slaves? Are they being coerced into doing it? Lots of jobs are degrading and crappy, people do them because they need the pay.

aleks: "Well, I doubt anyone actually envisions a world where the current level of milk is provided by women instead of cows, and I sure as hell wouldn't drink it."

Except that is EXACTLY what PETA suggested we do. Which is what the discussion is about. And sure, the weird Swiss restaurant probably pays the women a good amount, but I bet it's really expensive food, and you're paying for the novelty; the women are probably also providing the milk for the novelty. The point was that PETA suggested that we use women instead of cattle, and we were discussing why that is ridiculous.

Except that is EXACTLY what PETA suggested we do. Which is what the discussion is about. And sure, the weird Swiss restaurant probably pays the women a good amount, but I bet it's really expensive food, and you're paying for the novelty; the women are probably also providing the milk for the novelty. The point was that PETA suggested that we use women instead of cattle, and we were discussing why that is ridiculous.
Posted by Brianna G Author Profile Page | September 24, 2008 5:51 PM

Perhaps I misoverestimated PETA. I thought there was some element of deliberate mockery involved rather than an earnest intention. If PETA does indeed envision a world where every drop of milk that is currently supplied by cattle . . . really, you think?