I know I've heard of this before. I thin about the whole Spitzer prostitute thing, I think 20/20 or Dateline did a whole piece on prostitution (as if no one has ever heard of it before) and they did discuss how pimps & johns rarely get arrested. Sadly, it's old news and the same old story how it's ok if women get treated like whores, so long as they don't willingly choose to be one!

Well at least it's a step in the right direction here. We'll see what, if anything, comes of it.

As far as the "pushing underground" goes, I'd like to think that wouldn't happen but then again I've lived in this too long to know I should expect the best of people.

I think there is certainly some sexism at play here, but I think there are some accompanying reasonable explanations for the differences between the arrests of prostitutes vs. johns or pimps.

To play devil's advocate, some of it may have to do with the difficulty in gathering evidence and making criminal cases against johns or pimps. There is some analogy in arresting the drug dealer vs. arresting the buyer. A prostitute, like a dealer, participates in several transactions a day, where an average john makes maybe one a week or one a month. The prostitute is therefore committing more criminal acts per day, and thus has a MUCH higher risk of an officer catching her.

However, a there is even more difficulty in making a case against a john, because once the transaction is complete -- there's no way for an officer to tell. If a cop stops someone who only a block ago purchased crack cocaine, a simple search will reveal the drug, and a possession-bust is possible. But, if a cop stops someone who has just a block ago purchased the services of a prostitute, there is no accompanying possession crime. The cop has to actually witness the transaction in order to bust the john ... otherwise, the officer has no way of knowing that a crime occurred.

As for pimps ... my understanding is that they are much more behind the scenes, thus the evidence-gathering process is far more complex. There are certainly criminal acts occurring, but they do not necessarily occur on the street where a cop could easily witness them.

Not to deny the sexism inherent in this process ... the pimps and johns have set it up where the prostitute will take the fall. But, there are logical explanations beyond pure sexism. Just a thought.

kbz

This is disturbing - even accounting for the fact that there are simply more sex workers than pimps.

What troubles me just as much, though, is the way the study being reported, the article reported it, and unfortunately this post, conflate prostitution as such and trafficking. Whatever one's moral or policy views about prostitution, they are not the same thing.

Hyperbole alert: should read: "almost as much."

Typo alert: should read: "article reporting."

Unfortunately, this sexist disparity is nothing new.

Um, actually, the legal system *does* prosecute drug users more frequently than they do the dealers or suppliers, which is a reason we have so many young African-American men in jail/prison. Most of those men are not dealers. Frankly, busting users creates the illusion that something is being done as per the availability of drugs and the safety of the community. The dealers and suppliers of drugs are not typically on street corners or advertising their products in newspapers.

The only similarity I'm seeing here is that both sex and drugs are an illegal "product" that people want. Decriminalization and government regulation on both would make this much less of an issue.

Um, actually, the legal system *does* prosecute drug users more frequently than they do the dealers or suppliers, which is a reason our jail/prisons are so overcrowded. Most of those men are not dealers. Frankly, busting users creates the illusion that something is being done as per the availability of drugs and the safety of the community. The dealers and suppliers of drugs are not typically on street corners or advertising their products in newspapers.

The only similarity I'm seeing here is that both sex and drugs are an illegal "product" that people want. Decriminalization and government regulation on both would make this much less of an issue.

I'm sorry, originally I posted "African-American men," when actually the problem extends to people of both genders and all colors.

Drug users and johns are not entirely analogous.

Drug users are generally prosecuted for illegal possession of a product. There is no analogous crime in the illicit sex trade -- since the money is transacted for an illegal service, rather than a product, it is much more difficult to bust the user. The user must therefore be caught in the act in order to meet the evidentiary standard.

kbz

I agree, but what I gathered from the post was that drug warriors typically go for the dealer, when in fact they typically go for the user. It should also be noted that women are more likely to be prosecuted for drug possession, so this gender gap in law enforcement is more or less across the board. Prostitution is simply seen as a "female" crime, so it gets more attention.

I spent a summer at a trafficked women rehabilitation center, and I saw that the main problem was not the act of prostitution itself, but the illegality of it, which lent no recourse to legal action should the woman be abused by johns or pimps; as well as a lack of access to contraception and STI testing employed by prostitutes in places like the Netherlands.

Making prostitution illegal only makes the prostitutes criminals. And that's bullshit.

I've always found that there is an extremely problematic moral foundation for laws against prostitution: all of us feminists strongly support that women have a right to decide what happens to their own bodies. So why shouldn't they be allowed to sell themselves for money, if that's their choice? And if they do this entirely of their own volition, who exactly is the victim of this crime?

Many people may not be bothered by this, but I am. Undoubtedly prostitution is a terrible thing, setting aside the objectification of women, the prostitutes themselves lead terrible lives. Being put in jail is not what they need. If prostitution really is a crime, then aren't they the victims? Why are they convicted?

I like the solution they did in Sweden: make it illegal to buy sex and to pimp, but not to sell it. It forces the cops to go after the johns and the pimps, who are the real criminals here, and it doesn't force poor desperate women who's taken up prostitution as a last resort to go to jail. This makes so much sense to me. It reduces prostitution over-all, because you cut off the demand, and it does so without punishing the women.

Sex, yes, race, yes, but money matters too, right? I don't have any data, but prostitutes must, on average, be poorer than both pimps and johns, have less access to legal resources, less social connections, etc. Right?

Oskar, why is what the johns do any more criminal than what a sex worker does? I see how it somehow makes sense to do away with demand, but by criminalizing it, you're criminalizing it, not getting rid of it. Sex workers in Sweden have spoken out against their law, and the law doesn't address the underlying problem of seeing women as a commodity. Progressive laws like the ones in New Zealand use a harm-reduction model that respects the agency of sex workers. The goal is to prevent trafficking and to provide sex workers support if they want to exit; taking away their best customers only increases violence. Why are we still talking about legislating morality?

Undoubtedly prostitution is a terrible thing, setting aside the objectification of women, the prostitutes themselves lead terrible lives. Being put in jail is not what they need. If prostitution really is a crime, then aren't they the victims?

Um...what? I have friends that are sex workers, and they definitely do not lead terrible lives. They are not victims and I do not believe that prostitution is a terrible thing.

There is a good reason why women get arrested more than men-because there the ones selling the sex.

Look, you ladies know as well as I do, most red blooded American males will find it pretty hard to resist sex when it is rubbed in there face, most do resist because it's the right thing to do. But lets face it, men have a strong sex drive (thank goodness they do because that, in part, reproduces the species and gives us the attention we like whether we want to admit it or not) and if a woman keeps after a man with sex, sooner or later she is going to get him.

Instead of contemptuously blaming everyone else, maybe we should start encouraging women to take responsibility for there own actions instead of nurturing an attitude of victimhood.

We will always legislate morality -- the question is, whose morality? When we outlaw racism, sexism, or homopohobia -- we're legislating morality. When we legislate protections for endangered species, greenhouse gas reduction, or protect wetlands -- we're legislating morality. When we outlaw religious proselytizing in schools, sexual harassment, or employment discrimination -- we're legislating morality.

I don't see outlawing prostitution as any different from any of the other areas of morality legislation that we participate in.

kbz

Bobbigrrl- You have to go looking for a prostitute to find one. They're not door-to-door saleswomen. The rest of your comment I'm not dignifying.

Here's another reason that prostitutes are unfairly arrested- in many jurisdictions, police are allowed to pose as customers TO THE EXTENT OF SEXUAL CONTACT in order to "identify" prostitutes. This is a pretty widespread practice from what I've heard from various sources, but even "an overt act such as undressing or producing a condom" is evidence enough for a prostitution charge.

[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/12/AR2006021200943.html]

Ridiculousness abounds in the American justice system.

Morally, does a woman (or a a mn) have a right to control their own body?

If the answer is yes, then prostitution (and drug use) should be legalized. Of course, the cops then would have to deal with the @#$&*3s that mugged me last night. But it is far easier to pump up the arrest stats by busting hookers and druggies than go after those who commit crimes against persons or property.

"See, we're doing something about crime".

And the public believes it makes them safer, when prohibition actaully does the exact opposite.

Each community/country will have to find it's own way on this.

Frankly I'm scared of what the US market could do on a larger scale. The US has a habit of under-regulating markets with high profit potential. And we are great at pulling the wool over everybody's eyes until the proverbial shit is hitting the fan into everybody's face. Banking anyone?

For example, New Zealand requires sex-workers to be citizens. Very smart move. As a population of about 4+ million and being relatively geographically isolated, they have practically removed most incentives for trafficking and they are seeing good results.

Would the US be so bold to regulate so tightly? And how about raising the age limit? Hmmm. Probably not, it would be considered downright anti-capitalist.

@bobbigrl"Instead of contemptuously blaming everyone else, maybe we should start encouraging women to take responsibility for there own actions instead of nurturing an attitude of victimhood."

Ignorant. The reason why we on this planet have so many problems with sex work is not because it is illegal and it's not because women aren't taking responsibility.

Every last problem can traced to the consumer. Yet the consumer is the person who is least affected by any attempts to regulate or criminalize sex-work.

In Italy we've got some of the same problems and it's legal here. It's multi-faceted, Italy has it's own unique issues, I won't get into it.

But I can assure you that the life goal of a 17 year old Nigerian girl is not to come to the land of la dulce vita to give some dudes blow jobs in a corn field.

So how about putting the responsibility exactly where it belongs?

Spike the cat,

"So how about putting the responsibility exactly where it belongs?"- I did, reread my first comment.

"Every last problem can be traced to the consumer". I wonder if you would say the same thing about a drug dealer.

"But I can assure you that the life goal of a 17 year old Nigerian girl is not to come to the land of la dulce vita to give some dudes blow jobs in a corn field." 99% of all prostitutes of the world are prostitutes because they see it as a way to make an easy buck (otherwise they could do other jobs that reqire no formal education or status like being a waitress- it just makes less money) and 99% of them are not forced to do it.

Women do need to take more responsibility for there own action, this is the age of equality and female Independence,...well, lets see it.

seriously can we banish bobbigrl to under a bridge somewhere? this is ridiculous. it's like every thread now.

bobbigrl,
me: Every last problem can be traced to the consumer.

you: "I wonder if you would say the same thing about a drug dealer."

With sex work, both people are having sex. Forget about the money for a second. 2 people, 2 responsibilities.

"this is the age of equality and female Independence,...well, lets see it."

You are ankle deep in it, where you been?

rileystclair, "seriously can we banish bobbigrl to under a bridge somewhere" Are you intimidated by a different point of you?

Spike the cat, "You are ankle deep in it, where you been?" Ok, well then I guess we can quite with this "Women are so victimized" think-set, then. Entitlements for women abound, where you been?

"I have friends that are sex workers, and they definitely do not lead terrible lives. They are not victims and I do not believe that prostitution is a terrible thing."

AllisonJayne, it is true that some sex workers have good lives and are not damaged by their work, but unfortunately, the vast majority worldwide are not so fortunate. I agree that prostitution is not inherently a terrible thing, but the way it is all-too-often practiced is. I think that our goal should be to reform legal and social standards so that all sex workers are as healthy and well-off as your friends.

"99% of all prostitutes of the world are prostitutes because they see it as a way to make an easy buck... and 99% of them are not forced to do it."

Source please, Bobbigirl.

Also, Bobbigirl, does your "99%" figure include child prostitutes? How about adults who started being pimped out when they were children?

BTW, thanks to everyone who drew attention to New Zealand's prostitution laws. They're very interesting, and could provide a model for other countries.

"Entitlements for women abound, where you been?"

this is it, on a feminist website.

it's wonderful how many thoughtful and articulate people comment here and wonderful when they disagree and meaningful dialogue is had. however, i come to this site for a few minutes just about every day to escape rampant misogyny and mind-boggling sexism just about everywhere else on the internet. this is just not the place to argue with wingnut MRAs and their ilk. the troll; plz do not feed it!

Another factor is the visibility issue. People don't want to see prostitutes roaming the streets. You can't spot a john as easy so it's hard to build up as strong an incentive to get rid of them.

I'd like to find more info on how the internet has changed sex trafficking as well as related arrests. With sites like Craigslist, I was under the impression it was a lot easier to bust the john. Anyone know if there's any truth to that or not?

shiftercat, i like how you ask for a source in the same post that you make a statement like "the vast majority worldwide are not so fortunate". Source please?

I will not disagree that child prostitution, forced prostitution and sex trafficking are bad. Speaking from a Canadian perspective, these things are already covered under a multitude of laws. The laws relating to sex work in Canada are unnecessary, as the things they are ostensibly trying to prevent are already covered under many other laws. (Source: http://spoc.ca/decrimlegal.html)

Anyhow, I'm glad some (most?) of you agree that sex work (excluding the conditions I mentioned above) is not a bad thing!

*sigh* AllisonJayne, considering that articles concerning sexual slavery, sex trafficking, and the prevalence of violence against sex workers can be found at a moment's notice, I don't really feel that I have to post links.

You agree that all of those things are bad, yet you don't seem to understand my statement that currently, life for most sex workers worldwide is horrible.

The more sex workers are able to control the circumstances of their work, the better their situation is. Clearly, your friends are part of a group that has a lot of control. But there are so many out there who have no control whatsoever, and it weakens your argument not to consider them.

Really, we're on the same side here.

Imagine how much different it would be if they targeted the pimps. Oo, and if they got them on assault charges since too frequently (dare I venture to say always? Perhaps not..) they are beating and coercing the women into the lifestyle.

So, thank you science for backing up what we've been saying for years.