I had the opposite reaction, partly due to the nasty comments on TVGuide's posting of the news. There were people sneering at the idea and insisting that Ellen wasn't feminine, and that only feminine women should model makeup. To me, the choice of Ellen is sort of a "Fuck you, there are all sorts of women that don't all conform to your long, pretty haired, dainty, perky, dress wearing expectations."

I'll say the same thing that I said way back when someone lamented that the Dove "real women" campaign was still selling cosmetic products - cosmetics companies aren't going anywhere. They're not going to get all altruistic and say, "Oh, we're going to stop advertising and trying to convince women they need our product." So I always feel good when I see unconventional advertising choices for these products that acknowledges that there's a whole spectrum of women out there.

BTW, MAC has really great about selecting some truly unconventional spokespersons. They even have a Dame Edna collection coming out.

"What would be really progressive, to me, would be to have a more feminine identified man, who wears lipstick in his everyday life, as a CoverGirl. "

That's it. Eddie Izzard should be the next CoverGirl! I am being serious. That would be awesome.

I realize we're all on the same side here, but I would like to point out that butches are not the only ones f*ing with gender:
"I would say that being butch can be seen as a form of gender non-conformity, that is, presenting yourself in a way that goes against traditional ideas of femininity"
Being 'femme' is as much of a *choice* as being butch, and being a femme dyke in the community means dealing with issues of invisibility, being 'not queer enough', while at the same time taking a really powerful stance on gender. When a woman *chooses* to be femme she is disrupting the patriarchy by playing with typical heterosexual images of femininity and reclaiming, and NOT doing this for the male gaze. She becomes an outsider to both communities, but is powerful and fierce and every bit as gender f*ing as the butchiest butch out there.

I just want to make you aware of femme identity - I realize that is not the main subject of the post, but to not dismiss us is totally appreciated. Thanks!

um, did dani *really* coin "futch"? cuz i'm pretty sure i've seen that pre-tila tequila crap.

Interesting post, but badly written. Ellen's going to be a Covergirl spokesmodel--on her own show? What? Oh, you mean that during her show, she confirmed that she will be a spokesmodel? The way make up is done for men and women is different--different from what? Oh, you mean makeup for men is done differently from makeup for women?
I'm sorry--clarity matters. We often retort to nasty commenters that they're bad writers, so shouldn't we set a model?

Otherwise, you made really thoughtprovoking points about the gender binary, thank you :)

@marilove: OMG best idea ever. Though I do think Eddie would fit better with MAC, it's so much executive :)

Re: Rachel Maddow - the hair is a bit much but who knows, maybe she likes it that way. I wonder though - if she continues to kick ass in the ratings like she's done, maybe after a while she'll have the pull to do her hair however and tone down the make-up if she wants.

As long as we're talking terminology, I'd love to vote for the word "kiki", for someone who sometimes presents as femme and sometimes as butch.

http://www.butch-femme.com/Faq/terms.htm

I have one friend who identifies as kiki, and I think that can be an especially radical way of messing with gender assumptions. To shift between presentations really emphasizes how anyone can learn any gender performance that speaks to them.

Maybe Ellen's kiki now? Rachel Maddow still looks pretty butch to me, though - less casual, but still butch.

@newyorkred1 - Ok, so the sentence structure was a little off. It's a blog post, not a dissertation. I think we can all get what she's saying, no need to be purposely obtuse and pretend you can't figure it out because of word order. A little sentence confusion is far better than 95% of the writing styles on other blogs...

Cover Girl is not a job Ellen had to take, with her success and popularity in recent years. This was an opportunity she could easily have forgone, and she seems pretty happy about it, for all I've seen. Besides the fact that she's a very out and proud gay celebrity, we should also remember that Ellen is much older than your average Cover Girl, who all too often fall into can-smoke-but-can't-drink age category. She's not doing wrinkle cream or cover-the-gray-hair-dye commercials, as most women past the age of 30 end up relegated to. Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that I think it's great. (I'd love to see Eddy Izzard as a cover girl too, though!)

As for Rachel Maddow -- oh my gosh she's awesome. She recently did an interview about how she went from no make-up to a little make-up, and she said when she saw herself on TV she just didn't like how washed-out she looked, so she asked the make-up people to do her up like they would do a guy with similar coloring.

Great news for Ellen. I dunno, I never really thought of her as "butch", but I think its great news.

As far as featuring men wearing lipstick, its a novel idea, tho I don't think it would work very well at selling lipstick to women!

It seems to go against being able to look like whoever the fuck to you want to look like when other women are criticizing you for it. Does there have to be a direct correlation in the way a woman looks/dresses and the ideals she believes in/her sexual orientation/ etc etc? Last time I checked, that was NOT what the Women's lib movement it about.

I had a lot of problems when I worked in my Women's Studies department last year if I wore makeup or heels. In fact, the only place I was criticized for it was in the WST dept. What's up with that? I think that I can be empowered as well as wearing whatever the fuck I want to, whether its ratty sweats or $200 heels. Good for Ellen, she's making a lucrative career move. Although pressuring women and young girls to covergirl is a catch 22, at least she is a positive role model and incredible woman for young girls to look up to.

I love that Ellen is the new Cover Girl model...she's enough of a celebrity she doesn't need to do it, but I love that she is...she's made that decision and who are we to criticize her for a decision that she made?...and with Rachel Maddow? Girl rocks! I love her knew show...and really does she look any less butch?...not in my opinion. She has different hair, but again she doesn't strike me as a woman who would change if she did not want to.

BTW Eddie Izzard would be a kick ass Cover Girl Model...I'm always jealous of how he does his lipstick.

Remember kd lang selling MAC products? Butch can sell make-up.

I'm with alixana - Cover Girl's message is that you should buy their products b/c your natural born features aren't good enough. They are hardly out to shake up the dominant paradigm (unless it sells more make-up).

I think it's fucking awesome that Ellen's the new CG model. It's a huge step forward IMO, essentially an acknowledgement by the mainstream media/corporate world that lesbians are beautiful, including a particular out, proud, short-haired dyke who wore pants to the Oscars and her wedding. I don't even think it matters if she wears makeup off-camera; plenty of women wear makeup only in certain situations.

I agree with Megs. I would rather she be a Cover Girl because she's *real*. I remember when the Cover Girls were plastic girls who presented an image little girls to want to aspire to. As for make-up= women, I think Ellen is in the right direction. She's not a patriarchal woman. She's gender non-conformist. I don't think it's really going to make more "butch" lesbians buy make-up, just like it won't make more "feminine" women (straight or gay) buy their product. I know some girls that won't buy make-up period. They just won't wear it. Just like I don't wear nail polish and my friend doesn't wear heels. *shrugs* just my two cents anyway.

What the hell did they do to Rachel's hair? Goofy. I liked it better before.

I wish Rachel could do her own hair- I think they have a hair person who feels like because it's their job to do hair, they DO her hair. LOL.

If Ellen is butch, I'm Santa Claus. As for Rachel, I don't know, but she looks pretty andro to me.

Don't get me started on the notion that butch is a stylistic choice rather than a gender identity in itself.

In the context of broadcast media, though, they certainly are on the edge of what The Powers That Be will accept in terms of women's style.

One more reason to give a shout-out to the
http://butchcastingproject.com and all others who are expanding the repertoire of gender expression in media and performance.

I am somewhat uneasy about the idea of a butch woman selling makeup, although I agree Ellen is only sorta butch. I mean, I realize that you need makeup for the camera no matter who you are, but you never see men selling camera makeup. The idea of selling lipstick seems kind of inherently anti-butch.

Then again, I will never complain about increased visibility for anyone even slightly gender non-conforming, so *shrug*...

Now Rachel Maddox, she seems pretty butch to me. If you just look silly when they femme you up, you're butch, lol... she'd look so much better in the 2nd pic wearing, say, a real shirt and a tie with that suit jacket. And the hair... I am so glad she got her own show, but I hope they eventually stop trying to feminize her and let her do her own thing.

Maddow... typo!

I always thought when Maddow went over to T.V they made her look more 'corporate' and not feminized.

I thought they did not like the T-shirt and jeans that made up her professional wardrobe while she was on radio.

here we go with the "choice = feminism" thing again. But how is a woman choosing to conform to patriarchal visions of women(i.e. femininity) - how is that subverting femininity? or patriarchy?

If people want to present as feminine or masculine, that may be their choice. Tp the extent that you feel you are freely choosing, I guess that;s nice. and it can have repercussions within the queer community who have internalized the idea that feminine = bad, i see that...

But I don't buy that women looking feminine is subverting patriarchal expectations that women look feminine. Patriarchy doesn't care WHY you in your heart of hearts decide things. It is a system.

It's a system whereby feminine appearance (on women) grants you certain advantages and also disadvantages whether you ask for it or not, whether you 'mean it' or not.

If you want to sell me some makeup its best to use someone who has a fashion I admire and throw in some looks. I like Ellen but nobody wants to look like Ellen.

...Rachel Maddow is attractive btw. I like her hair. She has a good look on her show for a mature woman.

As far as Ellen being a cover girl I think that, that is a step forward. If you were to tell people ten years ago that a lesbian would be on the cover of a magazine promoting a product they probley would have looked at you as if you were crazy. The fact that they have no problem using Ellen shows that people are being more open and ok with other peoples sexuality (obviously not all) but more than there would've been long ago.
And as far as having a man on the cover instead... i don't know about that. I mean the point of the magazine is to cover women's isuues, and have people in it that some of them want to be like or maybe even try to relate to. Having a male on the cover would in my opinion prove the idea that men are even in control of women's magazines. It't not called cover people its called cover girl. so it should stay like that.

As far as Ellen being a cover girl I think that, that is a step forward. If you were to tell people ten years ago that a lesbian would be on the cover of a magazine promoting a product they probley would have looked at you as if you were crazy. The fact that they have no problem using Ellen shows that people are being more open and ok with other peoples sexuality (obviously not all) but more than there would've been long ago.
And as far as having a man on the cover instead... i don't know about that. I mean the point of the magazine is to cover women's isuues, and have people in it that some of them want to be like or maybe even try to relate to. Having a male on the cover would in my opinion prove the idea that men are even in control of women's magazines. It't not called cover people its called cover girl. so it should stay like that.

What would be really progressive, to me, would be to have a more feminine identified man, who wears lipstick in his everyday life, as a CoverGirl. You know, like the male bodied people who work for Mac?

but you never see men selling camera makeup.

Don’t worry. Give it another 5 years or so. The Cosmetic industry is just getting started with the male demographic.

After all, 15 or even 10 years ago, no one would ever have imagined a ruggedly handsome man like Clive Owen being the face for Men’s Night Cream (or whatever the product he is the spokesperson for).

Designers have already created makeup specifically for men. It’s not advertised on TV, as perhaps the world isnt’ ready for that yet, but it’s definitely advertised in Men’s Magazines, especially the ones dealing with men’s fashion and lifestyle.

Maybe I've been immersed in the feminist and queer communities for too long, but I just don't understand how anyone can see that "after" picture as any sort of improvement on Maddow's visual presentation. Well, I understand it; I just think it (patriarchal standards of beauty, I suppose) is absurd.

I think pedantic commentary on blog posts is also absurd.

I would love to look like Ellen.

I would love to look like Rachel too, who looks good to me no matter how much or how little makeup and big hair she has.

I may not be a butch lesbian but I don't have to be to identify with one.

Wow, Rachel Maddow is a hottie! That before picture--whew!
As for Ellen being butch...if she's butch, then I'm butch, and I am definitely not butch. Maybe andro, which is the word I prefer for between-butch-and-femme. I don't think I could say "futch" with a straight face.

"I like Ellen but nobody wants to look like Ellen."

Lala, maybe you should speak for yourself and let others decide for themselves who they want to look like. Even if you were trying to make an argument that Ellen won't appeal to CG's target demographic, your wording is offensive.

It seems obvious to me from the before and after photos of Maddow that aside from the addition of makeup-for-TV, she's been feminized (as well as corporatized) through hair and makeup. The issue for me is how much of that transformation (and Ellen's CG endorsement) is a true expression of their gender, and how much is pressure (financial or otherwise) put to bear on their gender identity/expression. It seems naive to think that they are not on the receiving end of pressure to be more traditionally feminine.

I remember a show from an early season of Ellen where the audience voted on giving her a makeover -- and they wanted to see her more femme'd up. She was joking around about it, of course, but also made it really clear that it was not her style and that she couldn't wait to get back to her own clothes and hair. She didn't use words like androgynous or butch or even lesbian, but she got her point across.

Personally, I find it hard to believe that Ellen uses makeup when not on TV, or that her professional use of makeup includes the CG brand, so that makes me a little cynical about her endorsement. But I see what others here are saying about feeling good that an out lesbian and gender non-conformist is the face of a mainstream company. I guess in the consumer realm, it is progress of a sort.

At the same time, the fact that the company is a cosmetics company does raise issues about the boundaries of acceptable femininity in our culture. I guess I would rather see an out femme endorse a cosmetics company, because it's easier for me to believe that makeup is a part of their gender expression. I don't know that I believe it is for Ellen - which makes it seem like she is bowing to patriarchal rules for women rather than bending them (like, "even gender-non-conforming lesbians wear mascara!").

For the record, I wouldn't describe Ellen or Maddow as 'butch' - although Dani came across to me as a soft butch. I guess I'm old school :) (although of course if someone self-identifies I respect that). But call it what you will, their gender nonconformity in the media is a step toward greater visibility of even more types of gender nonconformity in our culture. Looking at it like that, maybe Dani was a bigger step forward than either Maddow or Ellen -- she was SO popular, and because it was a 'reality' show, she didn't wear makeup and could be really frank about her identity and gender expression. How can we get her a show, too? :)

ps. Phoenix, thanks for that link. I'd love to see more butches in the mainstream media, theater, anywhere! Don't get me started on Gina Gershon playing the 'butch' in Bound. :)

Lizzie I always "speak for myself" and I imagine we all do but thanks for that long-ass lecture.

I'm just a little bit uncomfortable with this entry. Even though Dani identifies as "futch", the author here describes Dani as "butch". I wouldn't call Ellen or Rachel Maddow "butch" at all, either. Does "butch" equal having short hair? And not wearing makeup? Really? Isn't identity a little more complex than this?

Lala, the first two paragraphs of my post above were directed at you. The rest were my thoughts on Miriam's entry -- but thanks for reading.

Lala, if you always speak for yourself it's interesting that you chose to say that "nobody wants to look like Ellen" instead of saying that you in fact did not want to look like Ellen. That's fine for you, we all have our opinions but I think Ellen is beautiful inside and out and when you say something like "nobody would want to look like" her you're putting words in other people's mouths that frankly they may not want there.

I was also pleasantly surprised to hear Ellen's the new spokesperson. We need more diversity in all areas. I also think maybe to the mainstream media she is considered butch, so this is unexpected. I think she's a good role model. She's a smart woman- I'm sure she thought this through.

Oh God! I am getting so sick of all these nasty lesbians they throw on tv. Clearly this is just an attempt to make lesbians cool and trendy. Yeah! thats all we need young girls thinking that being homosexual is trendy and cool. Thats not a good healthy way for young girls or women to think.

Not to Hollywood: take the nasty queers off tv before I barf.

I think Brandi's looking for a reaction.

:)

http://www.thenewgay.net/2008/09/presenting-lefthand-lesbians.html