I love it!

I'm so happy to have you blogging here! Welcome!

Alright...I count the word "bitch" 9 times in one post.

I get that Feministing is all about reclaiming, but the issue has been debated here enough times for everyone to know that there is a division of opinions on the subject. Meaning--some people like it, some people don't. And rubbing it in the faces of the people who don't doesn't seem particularly "user friendly' or egalitarian.

I personally don't think it's at all empowering for members of persecuted groups to adopt words that have been used to denigrate them. In fact, for many who have been slandered with these words, the memories of hateful criticism are often too painful to make these words anything but malicious.

I just hope you'll try to keep that in mind with future posts. You have a wide audience here, and not everyone enjoys hearing women refer to themselves (or other women) as "bitches".

I think I actually heard the wind as the "bitch" thing passed over your head, cestlavie...

cestlavie,
then my suggestion to you would be what they often say at Feministe about their guest bloggers, if you don't like it, dont read her posts. She has the right to express herself in a way that she sees fit and you have admitted that she's not the only one who proudly reclaimed the mantle bitch.

"She has the right to express herself in a way that she sees fit"

Gee, I thought that right was extended to commenters, too. Shame on me for having a different perspective. But apparently, instead of sharing it, I should STFU and close my eyes when I delete her posts from my google reader...My bad.

cestlavie, you didn't just "share" your perspective, you said the blog should "consider" people like you in posting. As in, censor themselves for those like you. Yeah, there are people who have reclaimed the word bitch. Doesn't mean because you still don't like it that they can't use it!

Oh, the censorship argument. My favorite.

Since I don't have any government or judicial authority to force people to do anything on this blog--no, I was not trying to censor anyone. In reality, I was simply pointing out that there is a continuing divide in the feminist community on the subject of reclaiming, and that for many feminists, hearing women refer to themselves or other women as "bitches" is hurtful and offensive.

I was under the impression that Feministing is an online hub for feminists of all backgrounds, so I thought it might be appropriate to point out the potential for alienation. That's all.

Welcome Shark Fu, and an awesome first Feministing post. Looking forward to an update post-debate.

welcome shark-fu! i didn't know you were from st louis! i am as well, and now i am doubly excited that you're writing for feministing! i hope this also means that the midwest will be getting some feministing-events action now. =D

Asking someone to consider the opinions of others is not the same as telling them to censor themselves. Obviously Shark-Fu is entitled to use whatever wording she prefers just as Cestlavie is allowed to voice objection to it.

Jessica, a post on reclaiming words would be great!

Welcome to Feministing.

thanks for posting this. I look forward to reading more.

-another St. Louisan.

Welcome to Feministing! I look forward to reading more of your posts!

P.S. I love your writing style.

Shark-Fu? Sounds like a martial arts nickname.

As for the use of the B word, I personally don't care. But then again, I'm a dude, which brings me to my question...

How is a guy supposed to know if a girl is okay with him using the B word, if she says it herself? I've been in some situations with girls who threw that term around pretty freely, and then they would get mad when I say it. I felt like I was given mixed messages. Can a Feministing-er please enlighten me on the appropriate way to handle such situations?

Shark-fu, your post made me so simultaneously happy and sad. I love your writing style, but it's so depressing that the things you described will never be seen by Palin or Biden.
Le: I hardly speak for all women, but I'd err on the side of caution. I use the word bitch a lot and I'm a firm believer in reclaiming it, but it's always weird for me when a guy uses it. I guess it's an in-group vs. out-group thing.

Write how ever you want...I love it and will continue to read.

Yay Shark-Fu! Welcome!

cestlavie, no one told you to STFU or that you couldn't share opinions. I think people listened to your thoughts, told you in this case it was up to the guest poster what language she wants to use, and if you didn't like it, then don't subscribe to Shark-Fu's posts. That seems to be a completely reasonable response. Lots of ideas on here are controversial, that doesn't mean we just don't talk about them.

Le- I would say just don't use the word bitch. It will leave a bad impression of you with most people that don't know you well. A lot of women feel comfortable using it themselves, but it takes on a different meaning when a man uses it.

So happy to see you here! Now I can read you in both places.

As I see it, reclamation isn't about degrading yourself; it's about de-fanging derogatory words by owning and defining them yourself. When a woman says, "Yeah, I'm a bitch, so what?", she's saying, "You can't scare me with that word. You can't fluster me that easily."

Someone who's not a member of the derogated group can't do that.

Le: I think that your instinct to avoid using the word "bitch" yourself is the correct one. To do otherwise would be like me using the N-word. To be perfectly blunt, I'm the wrong colour for that, and it would be extraordinarily arrogant of me to assume that I could "reclaim" or "postmodernize" it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is Shark Fu a guest blogger? For some reason, I feel as though we label her as one because she's a *gasp* WOMAN OF COLOR. And WOC's issues are generally seen as a small piece of "normal" "white" feminism. I mean, she's writing a post a week, indefinitely. I'm not trying to call anyone out as a "racist", but just ask yourself this question. If it was a white woman working for a mainstream feminist organization who was writing a post a week, would we call her a guest blogger?

Well, I used the term "guest blogger" in reference to MzBitca's /example/ of what posters are allowed to do. So... no.

I know Inga Muscio would like us to believe that words such as “bitch” have left their derogatory meanings in our grandmother’s pain-filled, distant past. I know that third-waver sites like Feministing would like us to believe the legal and de facto battles of first-wave and second-wave feminism did too little to challenge the rhetoric of status quo.

That said, words such as this still have painful, and often recent, implications for women. I can see that Shark-Fu overuses the term “bitch” at AngryBlackBitch.com, I would suggest that voice isn’t necessarily appropriate for all facets of life. It was a dramatically different tone for Feministing--one that was both offensive and insulting. The aggressively condescending attacks by some commenters, as well as the suggestion that this isn’t the right place to speak up regarding the insult, only serve to further the offence.

I only used the term guest blogger because I was referencing a comment made at Feministe. I was not saying SharkFu was one, just that that's what was suggested when some people didn't agree with the posts of some guest bloggers over there.

Sorry if there was confusion :)

MzBitca, I understood what you were saying. I hope it came off that way.

Shark-Fu, great introductory post. I look forward to reading more, and at ABB.

Le - eco put it well. I may be too simplistic with my take on males saying it, but it's not our word. Simple as that. (Certainly a black-and-white way of framing it, I'll admit, though I see the "ours or not" distinction as dependent on self-identification. Uh, okay. No more theory babble!)

MzBitca and eco, thanks for the clarification. I totally wasn't trying to call anyone out. Just bringing it up. I just feel that sometimes feministing can get a little WOC unfriendly. And for more on-the-post topics, I LOVE LOVE LOVE angryblackbitch and sharkfu and can't wait for more posts. I think that most of us can agree that this is the kind of stuff we would show politicians and things that they should see. The president should work for the people, not the rich people.

Welcome Shark-Fu! I love your personal blog, and it's great to see you here as well.

Cestlavie: Please note that Shark-Fu is using the term for herself, and not in anyway requesting that you do the same. You are also saying this while reading a site that uses a very offensive (if you find reclaiming controversial) symbol as it's logo. Please lighten up.

Le: What everyone else said, you can't reclaim terms never used against you. That being said, thanks for caring enough to ask.

Oh, Shark-Fu, if I had known you were here today, I'd have come by a lot sooner. I'm so glad I made it, though, to say hello.

Well, yes indeed to your splendid idea. When I first saw the governor on television at the convention, I strangely began to wonder if she had ever seen any actual homeless people. And I thought, nah, they probably don't have them in Alaska.

I thought about the safe house we lost during the last hurricane and wondered why she cut funding for shelters by some amount like $13,000 when her state has double the national average incidents of domestic violence and millions in surplus money. Any program that needs that kind of money, really needs it, you know what I'm saying? Is she mean, or what's that about? I sorta wondered if she had ever really seen a city, to tell the truth.

They say that every once in a while the impossible happens, so I am absolutely hoping you are going to get called upon to be their tour guide. And when you're finished with their honorablenesses, please send them on down to New Orleans.

While taking rich politicians (and is there any other kind?) on a tour of the poorer sections of a city is a splendid idea, there's a chance that it wouldn't do much to change their views. There are people whose reality-filters are firmly in place by the time they're thirty. :/

Jane: I don't think that reclamation is an attempt to say that words like "bitch" aren't still being used in a derogatory fashion -- on the contrary, I think it's a recognition of that fact. If people weren't still using "bitch" to "put women in their place", we wouldn't have to dilute the power of those words.

As far as I can see, by utilizing the denigrator's language, you are, in essence, agreeing with their derogatory comments and encouraging this behavior. What message does this send to the people who insult you? If people hurled every negative insult in our direction, would we really use those words to describe ourselves? Would we really feel empowered by calling ourselves such spiteful names? Where do women draw the line?

Not all women accept reclaiming as a positive step, and many women face painful memories when these words are used, especially on a feminist website. That many commenters are criticizing others for voicing their concern is offensive and inappropriate.

Welcome Shark-Fu!!! I am so excited to see that you will be blogging here at feministing! I have always loved reading AngryBlackBitch and can't wait to see what you'll bring to the table here. :)

Wilkommen, Bienvenue, Welcome!

Just wanted to say Hello, but of course---have to comment on the controversy now :)!

The more confidence I gain through education, learning form other women, and kicking ass in my chosen field, the more I see "bitch" as a term of empowerment. It's like, I've gained so much by seeing through the double standards, the labels, the attempts to "keep me in my place," that these terms are like badges of honor or mostly, just absolutely powerless to harm me. The more personal power I gain through knowledge (WITH MUCH THANKS TO THIS WEBSITE!!!) the more I just laugh at these devices when they are wielded in the negative. When they are used as "reclaimed," they are simply charming.

When one is empowered and confident, these terms lose any power to harm. I imagine that one day it will be like this with all inciteful words.

Shark-Fu - welcome, and I don't know if you read the comments here, but it might be a great idea to send this blog post to both the parties: Joe Biden and Sarah Palin and see if they take you up on it. The worst that can happen is they say "no" and the best that can happen is that you get to show them exactly what you are talking about.

For Biden: http://biden.senate.gov/services/contact/

For Palin: http://www.gov.state.ak.us/govoffices/

Thanks for the responses everyone. Now let me add that in my personal life, I have female friends who...

1) Range from being very self-respecting and strong (in both their words and actions) to, well, let's just say the others have a lot they need to work on
2) Some of them denounce the B word while others use it all the time, and even are okay with me using it.

Now, in my experience, there has been absolutely no correlation between 1 and 2, meaning their attitudes and use or rejection of the B word doesn't seem to have any cause/effect with how they treat themselves or esp. how they let men treat them. I can go into more detail but I might end up writing an entire essay.

As far as I can see, by utilizing the denigrator's language, you are, in essence, agreeing with their derogatory comments and encouraging this behavior.
Uhm, are you familiar with the concept of reclamation? The idea is to turn the denigrator's word, which is meant to hurt, into something positive, rendering it useless. When I've been called a bitch, it's because I spoke my mind, I wouldn't shut up, and I was agressives--all traits that would be acceptable in a man but are offensive in a woman. I'm proud to be those things, so I call myself a bitch, and most of my friends agree with me and we call eachother bitches. No where in the post does shark-fu call any of us a bitch. If you don't like it, don't use it, ask your friends not to call you a bitch. But if you can't see the difference between Rush Limbaugh and shark fu using the word bitch then there really isn't much hope for you.
Besides that, jumping on the use of the word bitch is missing the whole point of the article, which had nothing to do with language. We have about a million threads on language so why not choose one of those? Or write your own community blog post. This whole thing reminds me of when Jessica started posting pics of Monty and people flipped their shit because he was purebred and jumped all over her, instead of taking it to one of the animal activism threads that we have.

"AngryBlackBitch.com" ...

I'm looking forward to reading this site as a black male, especially whether and to what extend it vibes with (color-blind ... aka white female) feminist sites. I'm convinced that feminism and the women's movement (though to a lesser extent the gay rights movement) is more often than not an upper class white female politic and movement, one which mobilizes and includes under-class white women and women of color when it proves to be politically expedient. In other words, all of the ISMS that define us in the real world, and which many often pretend don't exist when they enter the vaccum and sanctuary of cyber-space, prevent the word, politic, and movement called "feminisim" to become a multicultural symbol. The word, politic, and value tends to ring synomous with the word "American" (aka ... 200 plus million "white people" minus "all others"). So, yes, seeing the word, whether "Angry" and "Black" and "Bitch" are refreshing ... at least to me ... my male ... where I'm embracing the good, the bad, and the uglyness of all of its meanings and connotations.

Thank you thank you for your insight and snarky goodness. I look forward to reading your posts and subsequent comments on this international forum. Best wishes from your St. Louis neighbor.

Thank you all for the warm welcome!

And thanks for Biden and Palin's contact info - trust that I shall be in touch with them shortly!

I look forward to discussing many of the issues raised in comments to this post in the coming weeks.

Welcome!

-another St. Louisan

OMG thank you for telling me the VP debates are in St.Louis. I'm an american living abroad and I'll be visiting family right when they are taking place there so I will actually be able to go and see stuff.

I think it would be great if we could have a meet-up or something.

I would love to read a post about reclamation. I found the use of the word bitch in