I know that some trans women have managed to get into Mich fest this year but I still find the policy of "no men" on the land to be completely offensive. Until they publicly withdraw this policy and apologize to all of the trans women that they have excluded I want nothing to do with this festival. I will neither attend or send a single dollar of support. To me a celebration of women that bars trans women is not a true festival of women, it is an exercise is in social control and discipline. All bodies matter.

I was all geared up to go to Camp Trans this year, but unfortunately the plans fell through. So coming from a position of one who has still never actually been to either MichFest or Camp Trans...

I think it's really interesting how vocal some folks in my same position (never having attended) are on the issue. This isn't to say that past attendance is a requisite for having an opinion, of course. But considering how many women's experiences on the land really shape their arguments around the issue, it's intriguing to me that a lot of folks with no hands-on experience speak with such authority about these places. (I'm thinking specifically of a conversation I had with a friend, but I've also seen a lot of "I will never..." rhetoric online too.)

I'm not familiar with any trans women who have even showed an interest in getting into the festival. I know several women who camp each year with trans men (who evidently do not take issue with being referred to in female pronouns if it means getting to see Alix Olson perform) and who fly the trans flag at their campsite to show their support, but they generally don't do much activism outside that minor visual display because they do so many drugs on the land that they're incapable of doing much else.

In all honesty, even if Mich Fest issued an apology and opened its doors to all female identified individuals, I still wouldn't go anywhere near the fest knowing what my acquaintances do there. TONS of drug use (pot, ecstasy, acid, coke, mushrooms), binge drinking, casual and often group sex (always unprotected)... these are adults and they're acting this way. I know youth workers, teachers, social workers... people who have an influence, that look forward to Mich Fest each year because it's their chance to get insanely f***** up and hook up with people they're never going to see again. It's one more reason why Mich Fest is an embarrassing blemish on our community.

...

What?

Renee, it's not even a policy of "no men," it's a specific policy excluding a group of women, and that policy, by extension, defining those women as men.

To me a celebration of women that bars trans women is not a true festival of women, it is an exercise is in social control and discipline. All bodies matter.

And this.

Oh is it cool to judge people for their sexual and other personal choices? I hadn't gotten that memo.

When I used the term "no men" I put it in quotations marks to show my distaste for the fact that Mich fest refers to trans women as men. I believe in referring to people by the pronoun that they choose to be addressed by.

In the comments on Jessica's post Squirrel left a link to an account of a Kristopher, a self-described geeky trans guy, who attended camp trans.

you can read that at:
http://drakyn.blogspot.com/2008/08/camp-trans-is-made-of-win.html

here is a post that Gauge left on August 14:
"I attended Camp Trans - and Kristopher's account is great, though he arrived after the line walking and the vigil, so I can give more specific information about those.

As he said, line walking went really well. Each group covered about a fifty car section of the line, and my group talked to maybe three women who were for the expectation that trans women not attend Fest. And all of them were very polite, and just said they didn't want to talk about it. None of them seemed like they would make trans women unsafe, even as much as they did not want trans women to be there.

All the other women we talked to either didn't care - they were just on their vacation, and it didn't matter to them whether trans women were there or not, or they were strongly pro-inclusion.

The vigil went incredibly well, we sat around with a guitar being passed around early on, so that Festies would head over because we're fun to be around (us Camp Trans folk are a ton of fun!), and then there was a mix of musical performances and spoken word on the inclusion issue once we had a bunch of Festies in attendance as well.

All the Festies who showed up to the vigil were strong allies, and half way through, we broke up into groups each with a few Camp Trans folk who had volunteered to facilitate conversations about Camp Trans myths. Those went very well, as myself and other Camp Trans folk who have been to Camp Trans year after year facilitated a conversation at Camp before the vigil about Camp Trans' history. One of the myths we covered, that seems to have come up in this comment thread, is the idea that a trans woman forcibly exposed herself in the showers. Beyond any totally busted judgment of women's bodies that goes with a pre-op trans woman being singled out for showering (and the transphobia of has similar threads with ablist, fatphobic, racist, etc. judgment of women's bodies)...it didn't happen.

What happened, in 1999, is that Tony Barreto-Neto, a post-phalloplasty trans man, used a public shower at Michfest. He first explained the situation, and when everyone said that it was ok, he disrobed and showered. It only became an incident after the fact. Do I agree with his actions? No, because he identifies as a man, he shouldn't have been at Fest. (Camp Trans supports women's space including all women, not supporting trans men's access to women's space - and there are a lot of trans men at Fest, and trans masculine people need to know when they need to excuse themselves from women's space).

So we covered myths like the shower incident, what CT currently supports, the fact that we don't want to destroy fest - we support Fest and we haven't had a boycott in several years. Basically, we see ourselves as working to help improve the culture of Michfest to make it a safer, more inclusive space for all women, because we believe that including all women in women's space makes that space better for all women.

Several of the Festies from the vigil later ended up getting heavily involved with Camp Trans.

We also managed to raise money to send several trans women on the land (including donations from Festies for that purpose), and several Camp Trans attendees who identify as trans women also bought admission late in the week with their own funds. Many outted themselves right when buying tickets, and were welcomed and told there was absolutely no problem. All had incredibly positive experiences on the Land, and on Sunday, we did a workshop on the Land about how gender-inclusive ENDA affects non-trans women as well (Fest, being a place that has always honored the womanhood of all cissexual women - and is now becoming a place that is starting to honor the womanhood of all women - has many women whose gender expression and bodies do not conform to patriarchal standards - and they need gender inclusive ENDA too, so it is a place to build alliances).

As someone who stayed outside Fest, I interacted with a lot of Festies who came to Camp, in addition to line walking and the vigil. My experiences were overwhelming positive.

The culture at MWMF is changing rapidly. From all reports, and all the women I talked to, it's a safe place for trans women. Yes, the Michfest forums are nasty, but that is a tiny vocal minority - who are not going to use the same vitriol on the Land, because that goes against everything Michfest is about.

So I would say at this point, if cis women who want to stand in solidarity with trans women want to go to Fest, do so. Visit Camp Trans. Make it known that you are an ally to trans women. Call out transphobia. Michfest attendance keeps going down - I see it in the line every year - and now that the culture has changed so much, all the CT folk who attended said it is becoming the wonderful place it should be. And none of us, trans women and those of us who stand in solidarity to trans women at Camp Trans, want to see that space become smaller, or vanish - we want to help make it bigger, better and more inclusive."

A trans woman's account of being able to attend the festival for the first time since she was a kid can be found here.

http://www.bilerico.com/2008/08/another_trans_woman_at_mich_fest.iphone.php

interesting point about the price tag. i wonder how many young trans women can afford the costs to attend. At the end of the post she leaves an address for anyone interested in donating money specifically to help young awesome trans women come to the festival.

When I used the term "no men" I put it in quotations marks to show my distaste for the fact that Mich fest refers to trans women as men. I believe in referring to people by the pronoun that they choose to be addressed by.

My comment totally wasn't aimed at you, Renee, sorry if it seemed that way.

jscushion... what?

i will preface this by saying that this year was my very first year at fest, but i feel the need to point out here that my experience of the festival as a whole was a very positive and very wholesome one. i did see some interesting things in the twilight zone, but not your 'drugged out of their minds' version of interesting, and outside of that one area i found the land to be very G rated.

i'm sure the drugs you mentioned were around on the land, but even when i was IN the zone all i actually saw was pot, and not nearly as much of it as i would have expected.

I definitely disagree with the exclusion of trans women, but i agree with the people who have said that the attitudes of festies towards those women are generally friendly and accepting, and even with the unfair policy in place i would never call the festival 'a blemish on our community.'

This is not a personal attack on you, i just wanted to put another take on fest out there for the sake of balance.

Renee,

I know you do, I didn't mean it like that.

I was just being slightly pedantic.

I attended festival this year for the 5th time. I've definitely seen a change in the general attitude there toward trans inclusion since I started going (I went to my first festival in 2001). Everyone I talked to seemed supportive of trans inclusion. Unfortunately I wasn't able to go for the full week so I couldn't go to the vigil on the first day, and I didn't make it down to camp trans this year either. In retrospect I wish I'd done more to out myself as a trans ally while I was there, but the time always flies by so fast and there's so much going on. I think some people might get a different idea of what the attitude at festival is like from reading stuff on the internet...I checked out some of the michfest boards for the first time this year before I went, and was amazed at some of the hateful stuff that was being written there. The actual atmosphere there is not like that at all.

To the person who said michfest is a big drug fest, I honestly don't know where you got that idea. The main part of the festival is all pretty family-friendly, you might see some alcohol or pot but most people don't go to get wasted all day. There are also chem-free areas that are totally sober. The only place where you really see a lot of partying and promiscuous sex is at the Zone at night, and even then it's not as out of control as you seem to think. And most people I know who camp in the Zone are all about safer-sex education, so...

MWMF is, of itself, a meaningless expression of bigotry that becomes increasingly self-defeating. Not only do radical feminists discredit their position on mtf transgenderism with the obvious prejudice and hypocrisy underlying it, but they do wider damage to their credibility on other issues. If these views can be driven by mere hatred, then how can we accept their other positions and claims of being an "intellectual vanguard" as having any worth whatsoever ?

Labelling this as a feminist controversy is, as Jessica pointed out, damaging to feminism. It is good that that the issue is raised here at Feministing in such a critical light. But when somebody like Sarah Palin can be hailed as a "feminist icon" and MWMF can name their bigoty as a legitimate feminist position is there a possibility that the "broad inclusiveness of feminist thought" carries as many weaknesses as strengths ?

I realize this is an old post and comments thread but still feel compelled to join with others in a hearty WTF in response to jcushion's comment.

I attended Michfest in 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007 and will attend this August. I presented intensive workshops in 2005 and regular workshops in 2005, 2006 and 2007. In 2006 I brought four of my daughters along (only one of adult age and the youngest 9) and in 2007 I attended with just my 10-year-old. I make note of having brought my daughters along because it evidences how confident I am of their safety on the land and of what they will be exposed to.

In the four years I have attended, I have never, not at any time, witnessed anything remotely like the kind of stuff you describe up there, jcushion, women high, stoned and behaving in sexually irresponsible ways. The allegations there are absurd and in my opinion slanderous.

The majority of women who attend Michfest are, in my experience, clean and sober; i.e., they do not drink and they do not use drugs. Most are nonsmokers, most are vegetarian, and many are chemically sensitive, i.e., have environmental allergies. Everyone is aware of this and those who do not behave responsibly hear about it, usually directly from sister Festies. There are regular rounds of complaints about regular smokers in particular if the smoke out of designated smoking areas. Remember, this is all outside, in the woods.

There are vast swaths of the land at Fest reserved for clean and sober/nonsmoking/chem-free camping. At each performance, large sections of the seating areas are similarly reserved for those who don't drink, smoke, use drugs, chew, or run with those who do. The rituals that are held on the land, Wednesday night in particular, are expressly designated as not for women who have used drugs or alcohol.

Additionally, there is a large section of the land reserved for family camping, i.e., women and babies/children and there are a LOT of babies and children in attendance and everyone is aware of this.

Whoever described the land as G-rated is pretty much correct, in my experience. I have been *all over* the land the years I was there and saw nothing, again, like what jcushion describes. My first year at Fest in 2004, I did witness one event that left quite an impression on me (in favor of Fest). (Ftr, I do not drink, smoke or use any sort of drugs although I have in the past and know what that's about.) One night, a young woman was clearly having a bad trip. She was being loud and what she said was irrational; it was late at night, dark. A worker approached her very calmly and just began to quietly, soothingly speak with her. Within a few moments she had calmed down, and the worker escorted her to the Womb where she was received the care and support she needed.

There is only one place on the land, that I know of, where there might be -- and I say "might", because again, I have never seen this or heard anyone describe any such thing -- the kind of substance abuse jcushion describes, and that is at the Twilight Zone. The Twilight Zone is way off the beaten path on the outer limits of the Festival proper, and it is impossible to "stumble across" for a regular Festie. You have to know where it is and have to specifically intend to go there. It is designated "loud and rowdy" camping for those who want to party. Creation of that space was a compromise; many Festies would rather that the Twilight Zone not exist. Having said all of that, even in the Zone, I've never heard of anything like what jcushion describes; the complaints are more about loud music and voices of partiers carrying late at night so women sleeping are disturbed. There is huge activism around safe sex at Michfest and these allegations of all sorts of unprotected sex going on are simply false. A couple years ago there was a big brouhaha about safe-sex items not being disposed of properly in the Twilight Zone and workers having to clean up the piles. So, ya know.

Interestingly and for the record, since non-Festies feel completely possible trashing the Fest community, it's the Twilight Zone crowd (not every woman, but some outspoken ones) who have been responsible for inviting transwomen to the land and transwomen who have entered the land against the expectations of the Festival have camped in the Twilight Zone. The Zone has been pretty much the hub of trans inclusion activism. (Again, many who camp in the Zone don't support trans inclusion. And, many who camp in the Zone are also clean and sober and certainly do not support unsafe sex.)

Michfest has been negatively affected, in fact, by the perception of people like jcushion's contact who view Michfest as a big party. That isn't what it is, isn't what it's about, and the stuff jcushion describes? No. That is not Michfest as I have experienced it.

Heart
Women's Space

I said: "since non-Festies feel completely possible trashing the Fest community"

I meant, "since non-Festies feel completely comfortable trashing the Fest community"

Should have proofread, sorry.

Though I agree with much of what Heart said I want to add my own differing opinions.

The majority of fest attendees are not vegetarians, they are vegetarian friendly and are happy to be that way for a week. Many people bring meat and cook it at their campsites and there are no meat free zones. I've had vegetarian friends that this would matter to and they would need to camp in more secluded areas.

There is drinking, drug use, and some loud sex that happens at fest. It is very mild compared to other music festivals, but if you positively want to avoid that you need to take Heart's advice and stick to chem-free or family friendly zones. Many women (this is true for myself) who normally drink and smoke moderately do not do it at fest. The event is stimulating enough and there is a danger of crash and burn if one is not careful.

The gender policies have been covered to death. They are what they are, and they are what keep many women from attending. My younger friends in particular find them offensive and would never give money to fest. We all need to decide that one on our own.

I camp no where near the Twilight Zone (it's very loud late at night) and have had trans women camped right next to me. I only knew for certain because we were camped so close we could hear each other's conversations. As far as I know no one bothered them and they bothered no one else. This is one of those things that is a bigger issue on the Internet than on the land.