I totally agree with Elizabeth Swann. I would've loved to see her captaining a ship while she waited for her chances to see Will instead of sitting around in some picture perfect cottage moping.

I would actually *remove* River Tam from that list. The whole point of her character arc was that she was learning to be strong, overcoming whatever the hell the government did to her brain. In the end it's not her who needs everyone to protect her; it's them who need her to stay strong, not just as a protector but as a family and integral crew member. You can write a character as having a weakness without it being an attack on all womanhood. That list also completely ignores another woman of Firefly/Serenity, Zoe, who in many ways was the *strongest* person in the crew in terms of her emotions and capabilities.

I tend to agree with a fair portion of what the author said in this piece, except that I have a bone to pick regarding River Tam. The author ignores the fact that all of Joss Whedon's characters are flawed, complex individuals (rather than by-the-book archetypes). Another Firefly/Serenity character that I consider to be one of the most positive and role model-worthy women is Zoe, but even she is conflicted when it comes to her relationship with her "captain," Mal.

As for River, she has been manipulated and parts of her brain physically destroyed by a secret government agency, so the fact that she has difficulty being a "role model" and protecting herself may be because she's not supposed to be a perfect paragon of female power. The most powerful part of her story is (in Serenity) when she is able to take all the horrible things that have been done to her and claim them for herself in order to protect her loved ones. (I.e., use the martial arts info/training to kick the bejeezus out of the Reavers.)

Another thing I consider to be unfair in comparing her in particular to Padme and Elizabeth Swan is that River's story is incomplete. Firefly only began to show us her many layers (as well as all of the other characters') when it was cancelled. Serenity and the comics have filled in a few gaps, but as with Buffy, I'm sure Joss had a larger story in mind that would allow her to blossom as a strong woman (yet still realistically flawed) character. Especially in the cases of Padme Amidala and Elizabeth Swan, their stories are complete, and in fact end on them doing 'proper,' 'womanly' things.

Syan: I very much agree, I was writing my post when you posted yours! :)

BTW, if anyone still hasn't seen the speech that Joss Whedon made for Equality Now, go see it now!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYaczoJMRhs

[/geeking]

Yay, I'm glad Cracked made it on this site. Cracked does surprise me sometimes by making really good points on topics that reach out to an audience that, for the most part, is unlikely to read blogs like Feministing. Check out this article on Orson Scott Card's homophobia.

people have already articulated my issues with River Tam, so I won't. Character I would add-Lara Croft. because really? being bad ass just so guys want to sleep with you? Not feminist. also, perfect women bother me. Which is part of my I actually like River. Though the real examples I can think of are all Heinlein, not movies.

I'm going to have to politely disagree with calling out Lara Croft. Since when was she being "bad ass" just so "guys can sleep with her"?? As an avid gamer, all of the games have no romance story. Notable is the fact that she has male side kicks and back ups (butler and gadget man)and does battle with female and male antagonists alike. Some may complain about the daddy complex Lara has, but note that nearly all of the "Tomb Raider Legends" game was centered around Lara trying to uncover the death/disappearance of her mother.

As for the movies, I think they still pass the test. ESPECIALLY the "cradle of life", when Lara shoots dead love interest Terry Sheridan to uphold her values and keep unlimited power out of the hands of a mercenary (and return it to its source).

i'm also for removing river tam. i'd also bump eowyn farther up the list, just because hollywood managed to dumb down her character. they unnecessarily inflated the elf chick's part, and dumbed down the genuinely badass female character.

and, i'd add the queen from 300 to the list. what they did with that character ruined the movie for me.

How about characters like Idgie Threadgoode from Fried Green Tomatoes, Norma Rae from Norma Rae, Margie from Fargo, Violet Newstead from Nine to Five? Or do "strong women characters" also have to be young and sexy?

I can see how Lara Croft can be said to be legitimately powerful and ass-kicking, but her clothing choices are a tad ridiculous. I mean, short-shorts? Her legs would be cut up to shit. Maybe some cargo pants or something. (Then again, I'm speaking without having seen the movies, but I've never seen her wearing anything other than tank top, short-shorts, boots and firearms.)

Also, anyone seen Cracked's 9 Most Racist Disney Characters? I loved that one.

Um. I didn't understand the prompt. Ignore everything I just said.

So, what about Ripley? No particular opinions of my own, just interested in various viewpoints. E.g., should , or should I not name my next kitten after her?

Idgie Threadgoode from Fried Green Tomatoes? Hold your tongue, secretinside girl.

Let's add Erin Brockovich and everything Julia Roberts has ever starred in.

I wholeheartedly agree with the above comments on River and Zoe. What I'm wondering is why the sort of bad ass but ultimately insipid Trinity from the Matrix was not the list . . . with her destiny to fall in love and all.

Lately, I have been RANTING about the whole Star Wars series (probably because I have been hanging around feminist websites).

Think of all 6 episodes, then count the number of women who actually speak. My neighbor actually has the whole series memorized (because he is that kind of guy), and he was able to say all the lines of all the characters that aren't Padme or Leia in about 5 minutes. And yet, Star Wars often gets credit for being feminist because it has 2 feisty women.

And I have been just waiting for the chance to say something to somebody about it! Thank god for this post!

I think it's fair to mention(ok I'm a geek I'll just say that out front) that The Lord of the Rings originally wrote Eowyn as a much stronger female character. Likewise with Arwen and several others. Sure the book isn't totally devoid of poor feminine examples, it was written some time ago from a very male perspective. But I think that this is one of the areas where once again Hollywood dropped the ball on an adequate representation of the book. Eowyn didn't follow the troops to war because of Aragorn, she did so to protect her people. It was also a bit more of a twist in the book that Eowyn would slay the witch king over several other champions rather than the heavy handed treatment it received in the film.

The whole love triangle with Aragorn business was barely touched upon in the actual text of the book. There's some more in depth commentary in appendices, but as a fan of Tolkien, I think it's fair to say that he did try pretty hard to make any major female players in the book strong women with power. The fact that Hollywood botched it is just a clear example that major motion picture producers don't believe that they can use the original story, they must instead water down any possibility of a strong feminist character, alter the ending and make sure that you waste a good amount of time on war scenes and frame dissolves rather than interesting back story and creative mythos.

and, i'd add the queen from 300 to the list. what they did with that character ruined the movie for me.

You should see her character in the original comic. The movie version is practically Susan B. Anthony in comparison.

I would have added Sin City to that list.

C'Mon Jro, as an avid gamer, I'm sure you remember the code to make Lara Croft get naked (or the one where she blows up). The game's positive aspects are better than Hollywood's, but Hollywood is who we're talking about. They really played up the half dressed, big breasted, bad ass chick with guns theme, and I somehow doubt the intent was to empower women. I still like Lara Croft though- she is powerful. But Hollywood still gets a fail (as usual) as far as feminism goes.

I was glad to see Eowyn on the list precisely because Jackson screwed her up so badly. I thought her defeat of the witch king was a neat way for Tolkien to trump Shakespeare.

"I would have added Sin City to that list" Sin City wasn't even an attempt! Just blatant misogyny. But speaking of comics, nearly ever female comic character that managed to make it to the big screen was portrayed appealingly.

Does Kill Bill fall into this trap?

I agree with the whole list about the movies I've seen, including River from Firefly, alhough I'm a big Buffy and Joss Whedon fan in general.

I would add G.I. Jane, The First Wives' Club, Mona Lisa's Smile--all sad attempts at feminism.

I join in in decrying both the original article's choice of River Tam, and Ainomiaka's choice of Lara Croft. Aside from some unfortunate clothing choices, there is *nothing* about Hollywood's presentation of Croft that makes for Full Feminist Fail. To me, mistaking the effect the marketers expected the character to have on fanboys for an inherent aspect of the character herself is rather like blaming women for being hot. Croft does not do what she does in order to be sexy and attractive; that's a side effect, and it's kind of like saying that James Bond is misandrist because he's sexy and attractive to women. (Misandrist, not misogynist; I actually think Bond *is* misogynist, but he's a man's idealized self-image fantasy. Croft is supposed to be that for women, except visually appealing to men too.)

I will say "word" to Padme Amidala. My favorite spackle for this, actually, comes from a fanfic (I forget the name or link, sorry) where it is revealed that actually Palpatine sucked out Amidala's life force through her bond with Anakin, in order to heal Anakin enough that he could survive becoming Darth Vader. Since Obi-Wan was not experienced with Sith life-sucking powers and the doctors couldn't have known anything about it, they all just assumed that when Padme died of nothing being wrong with her, it was *her* choice to die ("giving up") and not something someone did to her. So she was actually murdered by Palpatine and claiming that she "just gave up" was kind of victim-blaming on the part of Obi-Wan and the doctors. But, as *presented*, her death was utterly full of suck. Why they couldn't say she died of a brain hemorrhage she suffered when Anakin attacked her...

My personal examples of Feminist Fail are Storm and Rogue from X-Men. In the comics, Storm is a natural leader, a woman from Africa who has immense personal dignity, a pacifist who will only kill when faced with the immediate death of innocents if she does not, and, aside from some utter stupidities when any (male) writer tries to get her into a relationship, is generally written as a very strong-willed and self-contained person. In the movie, all three of them actually, Storm is a far, far weaker character. Her leadership skills, her pacifism, her utterly eloquent diction of a type usually only supervillains and team mentors get, even much of her dignity were stripped away.

And Rogue was originally a former terrorist whose momma taught her to be a killer, who went insane when she tried to kill the wrong woman and ended up with the woman's personality stuck in her head, and who went from being an insane killer teenager to a dedicated, morally staunch superhero who, in the end, does what she does because it's right and it helps people -- originally she joined the X-Men because Xavier was going to help her with her powers, and while he was able to help her with the insanity, he never did cure her. She stayed and became a mainstay of the team because she grew up. In the movie, however, she starts out a weak little girl with a deadly power she's too afraid to use, which is used against her to make her a damsel in distress, and which after she has some experience as a superhero she decides to just get rid of because she wants to kiss boys. Ugh.

I'll second Secretinsidegirl: young and skinny shouldn't be a requirement. I'm thinking particularly of Dame Judy's portrayal of M in the Daniel Craig bond films. (I love the new Bond, not least because I love Craig for Layer Cake, and because he makes Bond, again, affirmatively a Scot, but also because the exchanges between him and M are so much richer than the usual Bullitt-knock-off relationship between the cop/soldier/spy protagonist and the antagonistic superior.)

Off the top, I can think of a few; someone already said Ellen Ripley, but Weaver's protagonist had a lot of company, especially in the second film: Jeanette Goldstein's legendary butch Vasquez (Bill Paxson: "Hey Vasquez, you ever been mistaken for a man?" Goldstein: "No. Have you?"), and the less-known dropship pilot Ferro and medic Deitrich. Bechdel test? Yes, Ma'am. Vasquez never gets mushy: she and Gorman go out in a blaze of glory with the immortal words, "you always were an asshole ..."

Linda Hamilton's Sarah Connor.
Corky and Violet in Bound.
Not to be cliche, but Thelma and Louise.
And, while Tarantino is always controversial, I'll agree with Marcotte about Deathproof: three female characters who refuse to give up and die; their only motivations are friendship, thrills, survival and revenge, and they stick together.

Pure mental toughness? Ada, Holly Hunter's character from The Piano.

(As an aside, "The Descent" is a horror movie virtually without men. It's all about a group of women, friends and sometime rivals, who adventure together, starring Scottish actress Shauna MacDonald. Her character was pretty awesome.)

But these are exceptions, not Big Hollywood Movies. Tarantino has made himself mainstream, but the Wachowskis were indy nobodies when they made Bound, and Thelma and Louise was explicitly a feminist project from the get-go. In that sense, Judy Dench is the most ground-breaking. She's a character in a big-budget popcorn seller, she's the boss, she's not young or thin or conventionally pretty, and she has her own motivations and relationships, including a complex and uneasy one with the protagonist.

Alara, thank you for talking about X-Men. I grew up on X-Men. In the films, they took the Kitty Pryde character and grafted her on to the Rogue powers; and they completely ruined Storm.

(What Marvel could never do with Rogue in the comics that the movie did attempt was to discuss her touch-active powers and their impact on her sexuality. But because they made her a completely different person in the movies, the freedom the film offered was wasted. The best female character in the X-Men films was Mystique, who is actually somewhat more three-dimensional in the films than she was in the comics when I was a regular reader.)

As for Sin City, the best that can be said is that it was true to Frank Miller's vision. The joke I've heard is that if you put a gun to Miller's head and said, "okay, write a female character who isn't a prostitute and doesn't die or get tortured", he'd say, "I got nothin'."

Just to be clear, when I said "I can think of a few ..." I meant actual strong women characters, not gender stereotypes with a few good lines. Ripley certainly qualifies. Beatrice Kiddo from Kill Bill is much more debatable, but I end up being a Tarantino fan, especially viewing her in light of Deathproof.

I'd add C.J. Cregg from West Wing. She's strong and feminist at times, but in the end the story line pushes all the women in the show to choose romance at the expense of their careers. She also doesn't do much talking to other female characters about anything other than men, despite the fact that she's Press Secretary and later chief of staff.

annabell: Lara croft has a variety of costumes. Yes, the shorty-shorts are the most famous, but every game/movie has an array of more suitable attire.

T-monster: Every game has its own easter eggs and un-PC quirks, I don't think tomb raider should get special treatment in that respect. As for the movies- of course it was watered down compared to what the game was (like most video games made into movies). But, unlike other heroines mentioned in this list, Lara croft keeps her integrity in both movies. She remains the star and does not become whiny/weak/married/pregnant/second to a male. If anything, she is the one feminine character who DOES pass the test.

On a final note: I do understand Lara croft was made up by men, I understand she was made sexy with shorty shorts for a purpose. It is for that reason I find that much pleasure in pointing out how much of a feminist Lara croft can be- the exact opposite of what her creators expected.

Hey Thomas are you listing feminist movies or movies that try to be feminists but fail like in the list, cause i didn't think ripley failed.

""I would have added Sin City to that list" Sin City wasn't even an attempt! Just blatant misogyny. But speaking of comics, nearly ever female comic character that managed to make it to the big screen was portrayed appealingly. " You would be surprised at the people i know who said that movie wasn't sexist cause the women got to have guns too.

I umpteeth everyone who objects to River Tam on that list. Her character is meant to demonstrate the way a woman can overcome things that stand in her way, and use experiences to make herself stronger. While parts of her character are problematic (Whedon creates flawed characters, none of his strong women are supposed to be perfect) she is an excellent example of women overcoming abuse to be stronger.

I also object to them using that screed from livejournal to defend putting her on the list. Sure, flame me if you will I don't care, but the way that author throws around the word rape so willy nilly actually does a disservice to feminism and all we try to do in fighting for rape to be taken seriously. If we use the word rape so trivially then how do we expect people to take actual rape seriously? Calling Whedon (and all men by default) rapists makes a serious fucking topic harder to take seriously. That screed does no one any good and only worked to increase that author's web hits.

Tersa, I was listing female characters that succeed in being strong, interesting and independent; the opposite of the list. Just listing shitty, weak female characters is too much of a bummer. I totally agree that Ripley is wonderful and I don't think the maternal relationship between her and Newt detracts from that at all. That's not about a man, romance or even a traditional role, really. She can both nurture and slay monsters with the skillful operation of heavy equipment; there's a working mom for ya!

I'd add C.J. Cregg from West Wing. She's strong and feminist at times, but in the end the story line pushes all the women in the show to choose romance at the expense of their careers. She also doesn't do much talking to other female characters about anything other than men, despite the fact that she's Press Secretary and later chief of staff.

Wha?

Okay, granted, there aren't that many other women on the show for her to interact with, period -- but I actually can't think of an instance of her yakking about men with any of the female characters. The scenes that come to mind are when she's with Nancy McNally or Abbey Bartlet -- always talking about something considerably more substantial than who she's dating, or would like to be.

Okay, scratch that -- I recall the moment where she realizes she's beginning to like Simon and brings it up with Carol. Other than that... And to limit the conversations being judged to those with other women leaves out the tremendous number of scenes in which she totally kicks ass among her male colleagues. I know the litmus test -- two female characters, talk to each other, something other than a man -- but there are other ways for a female character to grow beyond token status.

And she doesn't choose a relationship over a career, either. She specifically holds Danny off, knowing that dating him would create a conflict with her job, until Bartlet's term is up.

I mean, I'm not always crazy about how the show treated femaleness in general -- there was some painfully patronizing/misguided crap in even (especially?) the Sorkin seasons -- but even so, he created strong, assertive female characters -- C.J., Abbey and Amy Gardner stand out -- without ever doling out any dramatic comeuppance to them for having personalities and attitudes that weren't always palatable to certain male viewers I could identify. *cough*Dad*cough*

If you want to get into it about Kate Harper, well, that's a whole nother story. Shallowest character ever, and definitely a weak offering feminism-wise, what with her super-cool spy background and office-flirtation bullcrap. Plus she made Nancy McNally disappear, and that is so not cool. : (

Sorry. I'm maybe a little overdefensive. C.J. is the character who if I realized thirty years from now that I'd become her, I would be totally thrilled. Or Leo, but I should be realistic about the levels of awesomeness I could plausibly attain.

i REALLY disagree with River Tam
and I disagree with Eowyn.

River Tam as people have noted on here is a flawed character like the rest of the cast. Zoe is the strong female heroine. River is the girl who was tortured and is trying to get over it and doesn't even really know she has ass kicking powers...

Eowyn too I disagree with because she killed the main antagonist! She disobeyed orders and went and fought and kicked ass! Just because she got married, it means that she's not a strong heroine? I don't buy it. Then again, I read the books too.

There were waaaay many other characters they could have put on that list besides those two.

HA! Can't believe this made it onto Feministing...

I'm an avid Cracked reader (guilty pleasure), and when I was reading this article yesterday, I got confused as to whether I was reading Feministing or Cracked. So happy they decided to apply their funny to this kind of topic...

Okay, first off, I just have to say how much I loved this from the article:

Witch King: No man can slay me! Mine is an evil laugh!

Eowyn: Behold my vagina!

Witch King: * dies *

That made me laugh.

I agree that I don't think River Tam should be on the list, since I don't think she was meant to be some kind of feminist icon kick-ass hero type (at least, certainly not within the far-too-short time the series was on the air). I think River was meant to be an awesome female character who had some kick-ass powers, but that's totally different from a character who's meant to be a feminist icon. In fairness, though, Zoe couldn't have been on the list, because Zoe was full of win :)

A kick-ass female character that I think was actually done fairly WELL was Alice in the Resident Evil movies. She definitely has some of the tortured/confused/imperfect-ness to her (then again, that just makes her a more interesting character), but she's got these super kick-ass abilities, balls of titanium, and a protective (save the innocents!) streak that I think is mostly (not totally) done in a way that's pretty gender-neutral. Now, of course, the movies unfortunately were something less than awesome -- but still, I actually liked her character pretty well. Also, thanks to the first movie, I now have a crippling fear of elevators.

Eowyn too I disagree with because she killed the main antagonist! She disobeyed orders and went and fought and kicked ass! Just because she got married, it means that she's not a strong heroine? I don't buy it. Then again, I read the books too.

But it's made quite clear in the book -- less so in the movies -- that to her, marriage by definition means giving up all of her ass-kicking activities. (Apparently it didn't occur to Tolkien that she could have it both ways, even though so many of his -- non-hobbit -- male heroes are Renaissance men who somehow manage to be all things to everyone all the time.) So she gives several eloquent, passionate speeches to the effect that she'd prefer to continue doing what she's doing and be perceived as unladylike, because anything else would make her feel trapped and incomplete -- and then she goes ahead and marries Faramir. Thanks for the pep talk, Mr. Tolkien!

Her warrior character is still cool for as long as it lasts, but it still always felt like a ripoff to me. And then in the movies they just rip the whole thing down to its bare bones and it all suffers equally -- first, in TTT, she stands around looking pretty and making goo-goo eyes at Aragorn, and then in RotK she keeps going with the goo-goo eyes until he gives her the brush-off, and she does get her moment at the Pelennor Fields, but then (just like in the book) she just falls into Faramir's arms immediately afterward and that's it for Eowyn. And all of her dialogue along the way, which did so much to flesh out her character, gets skipped.

A kick-ass female character that I think was actually done fairly WELL was Alice in the Resident Evil movies.

Haha. Yeah, she is a kick-ass concept. But I find that hard to reconcile with the fact that in ALL three movies there was at least ONE full-frontal nude scene of MJ. Granted, in all cases it doesn’t seem very gratuitous, but you have to wonder whether that was actually the filmmakers pandering to the legion of Alica fanboys. I have to agree with you though…all three movies were really B grade…the stuff you buy from the bargain bin.

I don't get it.

what's the point? we have so little attempt anyway,... why would we want to patronize any attempt at feminism?! even if it's not successful. Is it to make us feel that we are the only ones who get it right?

how is this productive?

LOL. Thank you Thomas for bringing Frank Miller into this. Comic book nerds have joked about Miller's tendency to make all of his female characters hookers for a long time. Usually whenever he is being discussed it is a matter of time before an image of him is posted and captioned WHORES WHORES WHORES.