Thank you for posting this. I don't really see a strong reflection of myself in watching this, but like them, I also don't identify as a woman despite having female physical traits. To anyone looking at me, I am, but mentally and emotionally, I'm something else. I've always felt like an outsider in that respect, so it helps to see other people struggling to understand their own gender identity, too.

Thank you for posting this! I really want to see the rest. (Woot! Only $1.99 on itunes!) As a genderqueer identifying person I'm happy to see the visibility of trans/genderqueer people growing in positive ways.

"Gender fluid". Now there's a phrase I can imagine myself developing a fondness for.

I can't say I identify with anyone in this video, but I did enjoy it quite a bit. Thanks for posting! :)

I really enjoyed watching the 4 clips and really felt with them in some situations allthough I'm not genderqueer and I have to admit that for me as an outsider it is a bit difficult to understand how somebody can feel "inbetween". But I guess that many people won't understand a lot of things concerning my own intimate life. The point, that it's hard for me to understand it, doesn't mean that I dislike it, it's quite the opposite. It shows me, how much I can learn from other people and their way of thinking and living. It was really very interesting to see how the persons in this documentary feel and think about their own identity and their environment.

But I have a question people who are more familiar with genderqueer lifestyle may answer: how do I call somebody who is genderqueer? She or he? Something different? How are the terms? Because to me it is important, to see people how they want to be seen. If somebody born as male or female wants to be seen as a woman I will never question this. But it is easier to handle with that I think, as then terms like female, she, girl or woman fit. The same with the opposite. But if somebody is inbetween...

I'm really curious...

Greetings from Germany,
Viktoria

This is awesome; I always get frustrated when Logo and other GLBT monoliths forget the T, and it's good to see more and more exceptions to that trend popping up. I was just surprised that they didn't feature any male-bodied genderqueer people...they exist, too!

Any thoughts on why they showed women passing as men but not vice-versa? Is it considered "natural" for women to want to "move up" or to pass when there are so many disadvantages to being seen as feminine? Would men passing as women be too "offensive" or hard to understand?

Wow! That was really interesting! Thanks for posting!

Any thoughts on why they showed women passing as men but not vice-versa? Is it considered "natural" for women to want to "move up" or to pass when there are so many disadvantages to being seen as feminine? Would men passing as women be too "offensive" or hard to understand?

As far as I am aware most men who imitate women but do not wish to actually become them are known as transvestites, which seems highly similar but not precisely the same as the usage of "Queer" in relation to gender.

There are men(?) who have taken to using the phrase (as you would, surely, expect) most notably Anthony Johnson of Anthony and the Johnsons. I don't believe that the show would have minded offending people or being hard to understand, but I can think of no reason for their selection.

I'm male-assigned and genderqueer, so yes, we do exist. It is my impression, however, that female-assigned genderqueer folk are a good deal more common, at least online. There's also a strong tendency for female-assigned genderqueer people to have spent some time in or otherwise have strong ties to the lesbian community, whereas male-assigned genderqueer people are less likely to have ties to the gay community, so this could result in female-assigned genderqueer people being more accessible to people on the LGB side of things. I could be wrong about these trends, since there's no hard data on this stuff yet. Just anecdotal evidence, so take it with a grain of salt.

Miriam answered the questions pretty well, but I do want to call out the usage of the phrase "genderqueer lifestyle". This is not a phrase that should get used, for pretty must the same reasons that "the gay lifestyle" shouldn't be used and generally isn't anymore. You're not a bad person or anything, just a heads up.

First off, I think the show above looks awesome and I'm definitely going to go to Itunes later to check it out.

Continuing the discussion on those who are genderqueer and male bodied - well, I think there is more of a stigma for that identity. In public situations where I have been identified as a trans person (well, that is the nice way of putting what I was being identified as... they might use the word pervert) instead of a woman, well, the news travels fast and people usually look... disgusted and a sometimes bit entertained. I remember a girl at a movie theater looking at my ID and a smirk appeared on her face. She looked over to the nearest person and I could tell she was dying to tell them - she eventually realized I was still there waiting for her to hand back my id while watching her smile. Another cashier was very nice until she saw my ID and then she stopped talking or even looking at me. I had a customer at work that knew I was trans and walked her child out of the cafe when I came to get a drink and waited just outside the area until I had left to take a place back in line. there were also the teens at work who got a hold of my cell phone number and started calling me and telling me where I was and lots of different stuff over the past nine months. This is just a bit, but... I am very thankful that I don't have to go through that a lot anymore and I can imagine it would be as difficult or more so if you identified as a genderqueer while being male-bodied, although I do believe that it is important that we see more of those stories.

For my friends who are female-bodied but have very masculine expressions I know that they receive a lot of trouble, but I don't think that female-bodied people with genderqueer identities or presentations receive as much as far as pathology... just look at the word used above - transvestite. That is a really pathologically loaded term. Cross-dresser or CD works much better. There are a lot of cross-dressing groups (tri-ess.org is one example), but many of them meet privately and try to allow there members a certain amount of privacy where they can cross dress (Normal by Amy Bloom has a section about these groups that was really interesting). Maybe there are a lot of genderqueer male-bodied people out there, but they either are too afraid to come out and embrace this identity publicly because of how our culture views feminine males... or maybe they're too afraid to recognize or embrace it in them selves because... well, probably because of the same reasons.

I do think things are getting better, but we still need to see a wider selection of genderqueer people.

I'm reconsidering my use of feminine males... a genderqueer male-bodied person doesn't necessarily express themselves in a feminine manner, and perhaps I should have framed my response from a broader position... I don't know. But I hope to hear what squirrel or other genderqueer people have to say, especially when it comes to definity ways they identify and how they express that. Also the their experiences of being genderqueer and how others have treated them. Are there any good books,articles, or segments about male-assigned genderqueers? I'd be really interested to see them.

the different ways they identify... not "definity" or whatever happened there.

I can't help but think that women are reacting to a culture that shames and degrades them just because they are women, and they want to subtract the male gaze by passing as male. I am not always comfortable with my breasts myself, and I will definitely slump to hide them around certain people. Growing up, I always felt stronger when I dressed more masculinely; I found myself trying new things and knowing I could rise to the challenge of them when I had that "masculine" strength. I can definitely see why women feel the need to do this, but at the same time I am saddened by a culture that causes women to believe that they can't feel comfortable with the body they are in.

@manifestadestiny:

I think your confusion here may result from assuming that a genderqueer female-bodied person is genderqueer because they want to be "masculine" or "like a man". Such thinking perpetuates the binary system of "male", "masculine" versus "female", "feminine"; it verges on gender essentialism. Some of us just want to be ourselves, apart from labels of gender hung around our necks: not masculine, not feminine, but a "none of the above".

Hm...I'd like to pass this along to some friends of mine, but what I can't tell after looking through the site (and there doesn't seem to be any way to comment or query over there) is whether or not any of this is CAPTIONED. It's no good for those of us who can't hear if it isn't...

When looking at the identities and experiences of others its important not to project your own. (I think I did a little bit above, but I think in this discussion there is a place for talking about how male-bodied people are treated when taking on traits considered feminine). I had a friend once who talked about trans men from her own experience. From that perspective she found their discomforts with their bodies must be the same. While his comparing of symptoms is tempting, but I believe fails to acknowledge the subjective experience of individuals and that we should really trust each individual to be an expert on themselves.

"I want chest hair. All the men in my family are really hair, I want that too". This is what a friend of mine who is trans revealed to me once before beginning T. He came across as genuine and earnest and I trust that he knows who he is and what he wants.

I like what x364173 said about genderqueers wanting to be themselves and not a trait (I think I missed that above). Although, I'd like to offer my view that being one's true self as taking form in a lot of different ways, and I see there being room for those who do not identify with their sex or gender and those that do. Its important that while acknowledging the experiences of those who feel in-between or something else entirely that their experience of their authentic identity outside of physical sex, subconscious sex, or gender expression, does not define the authenticity (or lack of) in others who do.

In closing, I want everyone to be them selves and I think genderqueers are awesome. I'd like to read/learn more about them... any suggestions, book recommendations?

I thought of one book that I've read bits of, but in general it has been pretty neglected on my shelf. Nobody Passes compiled by Mattilda Berstein Sycamore. The first piece "All Mixed Up With No Place To Go: Inhabiting Mixed Consciousness on the Margins" by Nico Dacumos is really awesomes. Dacumos's identity is described as "a flaming queer radical polysexual two-spirit female bodied middle-class multiracial bottom" (with no commas - I like that). I also really liked Helen Boyd's piece about being in a relationship with a transwoman and the different ways others identify her in their relationship... (although it should be pointed out the book talks about all different types of identities)

It was a long time ago and i didn't really read much, bit I don't remember really liking genderqueer, I just kept losing my interest. Could of been the time in my life and maybe I should check on it again. It's strange... I can remember reading Rikki Wilchen's introduction or first chapter in the bathtub, but I can't remember what was said at all.

I first heard and became interested in genderqueer stuff after reading Sex Changes by Patrick Califa-Rice a couple years ago - although the edition I read the name was Pat, so on some level this book might be better viewed as someone who is writing from the perspective of being in transition... or not, I don't know. But I loved this book. While reading it I remember questioning myself about whether or not maybe I could find myself in a genderqueer identity. I think a lot of trans people do that (although that isn't to say genderqueer is some how a stop to being trans... I think it can work the other way as with Leslie Feinberg (or maybe just the character in stone butch blues) or maybe even Kate Bornstein), but both Patrick Califa-Rice and Julia Serano describe searching other identities first. Until I read whipping girl, it was the first thing I read (well, gender outlaw too, although Califa-Rice has something to say about that book that isn't so positive) about trans stuff that seemed to legitimize different identities without resorting to gendered spirit talk or being trapped inside the wrong body, which always turned me off.

I watched the genderqueer awareness videos last night... A bit of what is describe in some of the videos seems so familiar with stuff on trans men sometimes, but I think there are some differences that need to be highlighted. (I also am impatient at times and while I appreciate the personal nature of these videos, I sort of wish that I could just read transcripts...). Although, anybody have some transgender videos they recommend?

@manifestadestiny:

I think your confusion here may result from assuming that a genderqueer female-bodied person is genderqueer because they want to be "masculine" or "like a man". Such thinking perpetuates the binary system of "male", "masculine" versus "female", "feminine"; it verges on gender essentialism. Some of us just want to be ourselves, apart from labels of gender hung around our necks: not masculine, not feminine, but a "none of the above".

I don't think I am confused, thank you for talking down to me. I know what essentialism is, and yet we live in a culture that defines women as one way and men as another. Genderqueers wouldn't have a problem if there were no essentialist stereotypes. If you think your breasts are a tumor (breast=cancer), don't you think that arises from something you are taught about what breasts mean, or do you think genderqueers live in a vacuum? I understand the need to break down the lines of masculine and feminine, but to change your body so that you won't be perceived as one or the other is just as non-accepting of self (if self and body are united) as a woman is when she changes her body to be more "feminine."

"I don't really mind being female, I just feel more comfortable being perceived as a guy." Why? Because people see female and they see someone they can ogle, degrade, overpower, yada yada yada. Who wants strangers thinking they have power over you?

"I don't agree with the sex that I was born into, the biological sex, so I'm challenging that." What does that mean? What part about being female does she disagree with? The fact that she has a vagina (which she has, undeniably), or how people think they can treat her for having a vagina?

I support their right to do whatever they feel is right for them. However, this is what it comes down to: I don't know whether I feel they are supporting me as a woman because they are denying to others that they are like me.

Hello manifestadestiny,

You make a lot of points here and I think you're right, everyone would be able to see themselves a lot better (and a lot more positively) if it wasn't for all of the crap that gets dumped on everyone.

However, I think you might want to try and stay open to the possibility that it isn't as simple as vaginas and penises. If judging only by the physical attributes of male and female, I don’t think that's an argument you’re going to win. There is not one attribute in genitals, chromosomes, or whatever, that doesn't find one person who is exceptional to the supposed rules of sex. The brain is another organ of the human body, fairly complex I am told, and although I'm not a gender essentialist (not exactly a gender constructionist either… not sure what I am), but I think there is a lot of exceptional people out there - I feel I am one of them - and the conscious experience of being in a body might be different than what is assumed to be. Some assume a lot about women, but it’s important to examine what individuals say about their own lives and their own identities. I think it is really important that we support those who feel this way and who are searching themselves for their identities. I think we need to empower all identities - man woman or something else entirely.

I do appreciate your view and think that there is a lot important stuff in what you're saying. I think people should examine whether or not the pressure is coming from an external sources or from some place deeper, especially with hormones or surgery. But when it comes down to it, we have to trust them to know what they need and the choices they are making.

I think there is a lot of confusion in the distance between how one is experienced by others and how one experiences their own subjective.

I feel like I left a sentence out... I'm not a gender essentialist, but I think sex that there are aspects of the brain connected to ones physical sex outside of social gender... julia serano describes the subconscious sex and in my own opinion (and just my own opinion) I generally think people come in a lot different ways for a lot of different reasons and some of them might be biological... look at autism or any other biophysical condition in the mind. Author Aaron Raz Link (trans son of poet Hilda Raz) made this connection and also described another condition where someone experiences a physical aspect of their body, like a foot or leg, as some how not being there's and feeling alien to them. So... there is a lot out there, maybe it doesn't make sense yet, but it might some day.
(quick disclaimer: I like what Aaron Raz Link said on this... although not everything in his book)

Carasande: If she says, "I don't mind being female," then she admits that she is female. Biological sex is a continuum, sure, but she admits to being female. I am not being closed-minded when I am acknowledging her perspective.

There is a need to control the way another person perceives us. It can exist in a genderqueer person as much as in any other person, in varying degrees. Being genderqueer does not mean that you are more enlightened than others, does it? Remember, you're unique...just like everybody else. It does not take an especially enlightened being to understand what it means to be genderqueer, right? It feels like that is what I am being told when I am told to be more open-minded. Do genderqueer people have no assumptions about sex and gender? Get me on that list of people with no assumptions. I want to know everything, too. Convince me that I know nothing, Socrates; then I'll be a wise person.

And that is my defensive response to the attacks.

I feel an identification with these women. I do trust that they need to feel safe in an unsafe world. And I know that it can be frightening to be in a same-sex relationship in a heteronormative society. Passing as a guy could be the key to not getting physically abused when you are in public with your partner. I respect the steps that genderqueer people take to reduce the risks that they confront.

About the breast=cancer parenthetical, I was just thinking in the shower: breast cancer is not the most common cancer type, but we are warned about it and it gets more attention than other cancers. Prostate cancers are higher in prevalence, but I haven't heard of men having their prostates removed preemptively.

In response to the binding: we are told that breasts need to be big if we are to attract men (how will we know what size is perfect? Surgery! We need surgery!). The logical response to that rumor is that a woman who does not want to attract men shouldn't have breasts.
Another thing that comes to mind is the rumor that big-breasted women are not as smart as flat-chested women (probably a projection on the part of men with breast fetishes who wanted these women to be easily manipulated into bed). If women know that they are perceived as being less intelligent when they have larger breasts, then puberty is the entrance into a world where they are disrespected because girl to woman=breast increase. Keeping breasts under wraps is like trying to get a fighting chance in a creepy world.

Once, when I was in high school, someone commented on the fact that I had such good posture. My sister said, "That's because she wants to stick out her chest." I started slumping after that, and I still slump out of habit, because I didn't want people to think that I was knowingly trying to attract men--I wanted to be known as a "good girl."

But I know that I can't really hide my breasts. They are on me--see how I wrote that? I didn't say they are a part of me, but of course they are. My breasts are me, they are skin that I've always had that decided it was time to leave the plains and check the view from the mountain! Skin that wanted to expand its peripherals! I appreciate that they have operative nerve endings, too! : )

Why do breasts /do/ that expanding thing? (They are still kind of foreign for a girl who remembers when they weren't hanging there.) Sometimes I sit up straight and pick my shoulders up because I feel like my breasts are weighing me down.

"So... there is a lot out there, maybe it doesn't make sense yet, but it might some day."

You get the condescension award for the day.

thanks (I like to be recognized... not really for me being patronizing.... I'm not sure if this means anything, but I more meant it as a vague it doesn't make sense to me or anyone else if that makes a difference. its more about how I reduce it in my head and in no way was I trying to talk down to you or... I don't know.) Either way, I'm sorry that my early post came off as attacking. I didn't me for that.

Common ground: I do think that there is a lot of truth to what you're saying and I at least think that all the points you made really need to be taken into consideration before someone makes a choice like surgery or hormones.

that's really all I've got to say right now...

Thank you, Carasande.

I must now strip you of your award.

well, you don't have to do that - I like getting awarded, especially with something like a big medal or hat/crown and a sash. I like the idea of getting a big condescending hat (or crown) to wear.

Fair enough. You call it. For the record, the award is a t-shirt that reads: "I need three posts to get my point across and in them I will accuse you of intolerance without your post having provoked such a response. I will also seek to educate you by telling you what books you can read on the topic I know more about than you."

It's more of a night-shirt, actually. (The printing on the front is too long for a t-shirt, and it's nothing you really want to be seen in.) I actually won it for a performance I gave in another thread. I'd send it on to you, but I tried it on last night; and it fit so well, I can't seem to part with it.

Are we friends now or are we just in a competition to be perceived as the bigger person? I'm obviously not the bigger person, having asked the question. Or am I... ;)

Queer men are not real men only heterosexual men can be real men.

Queer women are not real women only heterosexual women can be real women.

In other words queers whatever gender they are don't truly represent the gender they belong to.

I like friendly competition, but you can keep the shirt.

thanks.